The status of Best in the league is up for stake this year...do you agree?

[Tenchi Ryu]

With the Rise of stars on a path to greatness (Durant, Rose) and older players who are known to turn it up in the post season (Dirk, Kobe), is it safe to say whoever wins a ring and gets the Finals MVP, they are the new top dog of the league? After Dirk's godly performance last year, people were easily calling him the best before he dropped at the beginning of the year.

This is the first time in a while where the cream of the crop has been close enough where a few people could claim it instead of just 1 or 2.

[All Net]

With the Rise of stars on a path to greatness (Durant, Rose) and older players who are known to turn it up in the post season (Dirk, Kobe), is it safe to say whoever wins a ring and gets the Finals MVP, they are the new top dog of the league? After Dirk's godly performance last year, people were easily calling him the best before he dropped at the beginning of the year.

This is the first time in a while where the cream of the crop has been close enough where a few people could claim it instead of just 1 or 2.

I think it's safe to say if Lebron doesn't win it all again this year not many will have him as the best. Guess it depends how well Thunder do....Durant could be the new king.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I think it's safe to say if Lebron doesn't win it all again this year not many will have him as the best. Guess it depends how well Thunder do....Durant could be the new king.
I got Durant and Rose as the main two. Both of them getting rings before lebron would be huge, and diminish the little things people use against them. Especially if either of them display the same ridiculous clutchness they've shown through the season.

For Rose to Lebron, it reminds me of the A.I to Shaq comparison.....Shaq clearly the bigger, better defender, who put up better stats. Compared to A.I, who had the winning mentality, and did the impossible at times. If A.I won the ring that year, I could easily have seen him being called best in the league.

[CardiacKemba]

I got Durant and Rose as the main two. Both of them getting rings before lebron would be huge, and diminish the little things people use against them. Especially if either of them display the same ridiculous clutchness they've shown through the season.

For Rose to Lebron, it reminds me of the A.I to Shaq comparison.....Shaq clearly the bigger, better defender, who put up better stats. Compared to A.I, who had the winning mentality, and did the impossible at times. If A.I won the ring that year, I could easily have seen him being called best in the league.

Bad comparison because there is no way AI would have been the better player over Shaq that year even if he won.

[demons2005]

It is indeed I think Durant and Rose have already taken it from Lebron. IMO if Rose were healthy though it would be his, but since he's missed games a two-way tie. Kobe is still nearby which is amazing for someone with as much mileage as him

[28renyoy]

Rose isn't even top 5.

LeBron and Durant are CLEARLY the best two players in the game with a gap after them followed by Howard & Wade.

If LeBron or Durant win the FMVP, they will be the unanimous best player in the game.

[blablabla]

Rose isn't even top 5.

LeBron and Durant are CLEARLY the best two players in the game with a gap after them followed by Howard & Wade.

If LeBron or Durant win the FMVP, they will be the unanimous best player in the game.
how is rose not even top5

[D-Wade316]

"The status of Best in the league is up for stake this year...do you agree?"

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

how is rose not even top5

This year?

Durant/Lebron/Howard...for sure better

Love/Westbrook/Kobe/Wade/Paul...all arguably better this year

[Celtics4ever]

It is indeed I think Durant and Rose have already taken it from Lebron. IMO if Rose were healthy though it would be his, but since he's missed games a two-way tie. Kobe is still nearby which is amazing for someone with as much mileage as him

Everyone is overreacting off of one game, but I still think Westbrook>=Durant.

If Durant didn't have Westbrook to take the pressure off of him. Durant would just be another Ray Allen.

[blablabla]

This year?

Durant/Lebron/Howard...for sure better

Love/Westbrook/Kobe/Wade/Paul...all arguably better this year
love..will his team make the playoffs no
westbrook...please
kobe...too many bad games worse record than the bulls
wade...hell no worse stats worse defense worse record
paul..the clippers aren't even a .500 team since billups got injured

rose is the 4th best player this year despite missing some time

[DMAVS41]

love..will his team make the playoffs no
westbrook...please
kobe...too many bad games worse record than the bulls
wade...hell no worse stats worse defense worse record
paul..the clippers aren't even a .500 team since billups got injured

rose is the 4th best player this year despite missing some time

Are you using MVP criteria or just best player? Because Love has simply played better than Rose this year. Not even really debatable.

Rose has not only missed a lot of time, but his team is proving to be elite even without him. So you can toss out "wins" as a main criteria because they are winning without him. Rose has missed 16 of 50 games....LOL. Bulls are now 12-4 without him. And statistically he's been good, but not great:

23/8/4 on 45% shooting and he's played poorly overall in crunch time this year

LOL at acting like Westbrook over Rose this season is some crazy notion. Westbrook has better stats, is also winning, hasn't missed a lot of games, and has played much better in crunch time.

Rose could be argued for top 5....he could also be argued for not top 8.

[28renyoy]

Everyone is overreacting off of one game, but I still think Westbrook>=Durant.

If Durant didn't have Westbrook to take the pressure off of him. Durant would just be another Ray Allen.

:roll:


If Durant didn't have Westbrook, he would be averaging 35 ppg

[Alamo]

It's between Durant and Lebron. I don't think anyone else is close really. Dwight Howard is 3rd.

[Go Getter]

:roll:


If Durant didn't have Westbrook, he would be averaging 35 ppg
:yaohappy:

[SpecialQue]

It's between Durant and Lebron. I don't think anyone else is close really. Dwight Howard is 3rd.

Distant 3rd. CP3 also could have contended if the Clippers didn't fall off as much as they did.

[blablabla]

Are you using MVP criteria or just best player? Because Love has simply played better than Rose this year. Not even really debatable.

Rose has not only missed a lot of time, but his team is proving to be elite even without him. So you can toss out "wins" as a main criteria because they are winning without him. Rose has missed 16 of 50 games....LOL. Bulls are now 12-4 without him. And statistically he's been good, but not great:

23/8/4 on 45% shooting and he's played poorly overall in crunch time this year

LOL at acting like Westbrook over Rose this season is some crazy notion. Westbrook has better stats, is also winning, hasn't missed a lot of games, and has played much better in crunch time.

Rose could be argued for top 5....he could also be argued for not top 8.
the heat were winning without wade too and let's not act like the thunder would be a borderline playoff team without westbrook
and in what world is 24/5/5 on 4tos better than 23/8/4 on 3 tos
also if you can't make the playoffs you cant be a top 5 player

[Kingwillball]

I interprete things differently, Lebron has been the best player in the league for the past 3 years, however the gap is closing mainly because of Lebrons inability to close or show the clutch gene compiled with his awful Finals Performance has opened the door. Now if it happens again this playoffs and Durant or Rose have a great Playoffs and one of them wins Finals and Finals MVP than I agree the argument can be made..

[Celtics4ever]

:roll:


If Durant didn't have Westbrook, he would be averaging 35 ppg

If durant didn't have westbrook, he would be constantly double teamed and his numbers would be down.

Durant is good, but Westbrook makes him look better

[DMAVS41]

the heat were winning without wade too and let's not act like the thunder would be a borderline playoff team without westbrook
and in what world is 24/5/5 on 4tos better than 23/8/4 on 3 tos
also if you can't make the playoffs you cant be a top 5 player

westbrook is more efficient and playing better in crunch time. i'm not saying its clear or that westbrook is even better.

i'm saying its debatable.

Love is definitely top 5 this year in my opinion. but that is just my opinion. i understand if someone wants to debate that. but nearly being .500 and playing the way he has is unreal.

heat won without wade. sure...when did i used that as a criteria for saying wade has been perhaps better than rose?

i could just as easily respond to all of your posts with:

you can't be a top 5 player putting up 23/8/4 on 45% shooting while missing 16 games and not playing well in crunch time and your team goes 12-4 without you.

Rose is somewhere in the 5 to 9 range this year. i can see arguments both ways. I'd lean closer to the 8 or 9 spot though.

[Jasi]

I'd say it's between Durant and LeBron as well, but damn this LeBron... every time something more than your average regular season game is at stake, he shrinks...

[D-Wade316]

the heat were winning without an injured wade
Fixed

[Sarcastic]

:roll:


If Durant didn't have Westbrook, he would be averaging 35 ppg

:kobe:

[blablabla]

Fixed
:wtf:

[Nash]

Durant is like Dirk only with better range, more athletic and younger.

[guy]

Are you using MVP criteria or just best player? Because Love has simply played better than Rose this year. Not even really debatable.

Rose has not only missed a lot of time, but his team is proving to be elite even without him. So you can toss out "wins" as a main criteria because they are winning without him. Rose has missed 16 of 50 games....LOL. Bulls are now 12-4 without him. And statistically he's been good, but not great:

23/8/4 on 45% shooting and he's played poorly overall in crunch time this year

LOL at acting like Westbrook over Rose this season is some crazy notion. Westbrook has better stats, is also winning, hasn't missed a lot of games, and has played much better in crunch time.

Rose could be argued for top 5....he could also be argued for not top 8.

Where are you coming up with Rose being poor in crunch time? He's arguably been the most clutch player in the league.

Here are his shooting numbers within 5 point games under certain time frames in the 4th and OT:

last 3 min: 11-25
last 2 min: 9-17
last 1 min: 7-11
last 24 sec: 5-7

shots to tie or take the lead:

last 2 min: 5-10
last 1 min: 5-8
last 24 sec: 4-6
last 5 sec: 2-3

He's been a beast in crunch time. And the only reason he's not top 5 so far this year is cause of all the games he's missed. If it wasn't for that, he'd be basically having more or less the same year he had last year, and would be top 5 pretty easily with only Lebron, Durant, and Howard arguably over him.

His team isn't "elite" without him. They wouldn't have a chance to win anything significant in the playoffs without him and just looking at record without him and concluding that he doesn't have an impact on winning is very lazy.

[DMAVS41]

Where are you coming up with Rose being poor in crunch time? He's arguably been the most clutch player in the league.

Here are his shooting numbers within 5 point games under certain time frames in the 4th and OT:

last 3 min: 11-25
last 2 min: 9-17
last 1 min: 7-11
last 24 sec: 5-7

shots to tie or take the lead:

last 2 min: 5-10
last 1 min: 5-8
last 24 sec: 4-6
last 5 sec: 2-3

He's been a beast in crunch time. And the only reason he's not top 5 so far this year is cause of all the games he's missed. If it wasn't for that, he'd be basically having more or less the same year he had last year, and would be top 5 pretty easily with only Lebron, Durant, and Howard arguably over him.

His team isn't "elite" without him. They wouldn't have a chance to win anything significant in the playoffs without him and just looking at record without him and concluding that he doesn't have an impact on winning is very lazy.

Rose is taking 27.4 shots to score 28.3 points in crunch time this year.

He's shooting 34% from the field. 0% from the 3 point line...LOL...and a downright dreadful 65% from the ft line (even worse, because he gets to the line a ton late in games....more than double his normal rate and he's converting at only 65%...not good)

That is not good. That is a 34% efg and 41% TS.....

Nobody is claiming he doesn't have an impact on winning or that the team is remotely close to as good without him. What I'm saying is that its not fair to hold "not winning" against Love and then turn around and use it in Rose's advantage.

Because the Bulls would be a 50 win team with Rose in a normal 82 game schedule.

[guy]

Rose is taking 27.4 shots to score 28.3 points in crunch time this year.

He's shooting 34% from the field. 0% from the 3 point line...LOL...and a downright dreadful 65% from the ft line (even worse, because he gets to the line a ton late in games....more than double his normal rate and he's converting at only 65%...not good)

That is not good.

Nobody is claiming he doesn't have an impact on winning or that the team is remotely close to as good without him. What I'm saying is that its not fair to hold "not winning" against Love and then turn around and use it in Rose's advantage.

Because the Bulls would be a 50 win team with Rose in a normal 82 game schedule.

What are you measuring as "crunch time"? cause those stats I just pulled up clearly don't indicate what you're saying and I'm thinking + or - 5 points with 3 min or less is pretty much crunch time.

I don't have his FT stats, but just from watching he's definitely had some issues at the line at the end of close games. But he's hardly been "poor" overall in crunch time.

[DMAVS41]

What are you measuring as "crunch time"? cause those stats I just pulled up clearly don't indicate what you're saying and I'm thinking + or - 5 points with 3 min or less is pretty much crunch time.

I don't have his FT stats, but just from watching he's definitely had some issues at the line at the end of close games. But he's hardly been "poor" overall in crunch time.

I'm using the accepted criteria of crunch time. Poor compared to some of the guys he's being compared to like Love, Durant, and Westbrook...

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Derrick-Rose|201565;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutch; splitValue=all

[guy]

I'm using the accepted criteria of crunch time. Poor compared to some of the guys he's being compared to like Love, Durant, and Westbrook...

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Derrick-Rose|201565;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutch; splitValue=all

Okay. I don't really care if thats the accepted criteria or not. Clearly its somewhat misleading cause it gives the impression that he's been that poor at the end of games, when he hasn't been given the stats I just gave, at least for FG%. If anything it shows that he's been poor from the 3:00-5:00 range of the game in the 4th and OT. The stats I show actually show that he shoots better the later the game gets in a close game.

[Mr. Jabbar]

If Durant didn't have Westbrook to take the pressure off of him. Durant would just be another Ray Allen.


:biggums:

[Tenchi Ryu]

Rose is EASILY a top 5 player in the league, and arguments can be made for top 3-4....

The fact DMAVS is going purely off stats is just...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And Rose not good in the clutch? You've got to be kidding me....him taking over and making crucial shots is WHY he's in the top 5 this year. Hell, he has the most gamewinning plays out of anyone this year at 4.

The ONLY players who you can have a easy time saying were better this year are Durant, Lebron, and Howard. NO one else have clear cut been better at all.

[Tenchi Ryu]

This is why heavy dependence on FG% is terrible for B-Ball conversations. Who cares what it was if both guys were able to contribute virtually the same thing to get the W. Why should it matter how efficient he was? Do you really think MJ cared about his percentages? Shooting shitty, or shooting magnificent, don't care as long as you get me the win.

That's why fans were better back in the day, too many people are focused on stats nowadays.

[All Net]

Rose is EASILY a top 5 player in the league, and arguments can be made for top 3-4....

The fact DMAVS is going purely off stats is just...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And Rose not good in the clutch? You've got to be kidding me....him taking over and making crucial shots is WHY he's in the top 5 this year. Hell, he has the most gamewinning plays out of anyone this year at 4.

The ONLY players who you can have a easy time saying were better this year are Durant, Lebron, and Howard. NO one else have clear cut been better at all.

Rose has been super clutch this year, that performance against the bucks was clutch as hell.

[guy]

This is why heavy dependence on FG% is terrible for B-Ball conversations. Who cares what it was if both guys were able to contribute virtually the same thing to get the W. Why should it matter how efficient he was? Do you really think MJ cared about his percentages? Shooting shitty, or shooting magnificent, don't care as long as you get me the win.

That's why fans were better back in the day, too many people are focused on stats nowadays.

DMAVS stats are all based on 5:00 left in the 4th and OT in 5 point games.

I can't speak for FTs but for FGs these are his stats with 3:00 left in the 4th and OT in 5 point games:

last 3 min: 11-25
last 2 min: 9-17
last 1 min: 7-11
last 24 sec: 5-7

shots to tie or take the lead:

last 2 min: 5-10
last 1 min: 5-8
last 24 sec: 4-6
last 5 sec: 2-3

That is VERY GOOD. By the way, his FG stats are 11-32 with 5 minutes left in 5 point games. That means he's 0-7 between 3 and 5 minutes in 5 point games. Clearly its a small sample size, and mostly an abberation given how well he's shot under 3 min left.

[Owl]

"The status of Best in the league is up for stake this year...do you agree?"

:oldlol:
http://www.wallcoo.net/sport/NBA_Miami_Heat/images/michaelleofarmer_bestportraitwallpaper02_1024.jpg I hear that his facebook status is "Up for steak"


This is why heavy dependence on FG% is terrible for B-Ball conversations. Who cares what it was if both guys were able to contribute virtually the same thing to get the W. Why should it matter how efficient he was? Do you really think MJ cared about his percentages? Shooting shitty, or shooting magnificent, don't care as long as you get me the win.

That's why fans were better back in the day, too many people are focused on stats nowadays.
Won't speak for how it's being used here but do you honestly not believe that missing shots matters. That there isn't a correllation between making baskets (and not missing them and probably conceding possession) and winning games? Of course you don't care "if you ... win" but do you not think that winning has something to do with baskets being scored. If taken in small samples, for say clutch shots in one season then it could be misleading. I think there are better measures of shooting than fg% too which lumps together 3's with 2's and doesn't account for the higher value shot. But if you don't think shooting accurately matters (or that Jordan cared about not taking bad shots or shots that he couldn't make) well, I'd have to disagree.

[Tenchi Ryu]

It doesn't matter when the percentage isn't worthy of criticism. Like say, if someone was shooting 30% a night, yes that's bad. But when comparisons between players are solely made between a percentage of like 50% and the other like 46%, I think its completely irrelevant if both were heavy contributions to the win.

And basically, it turns into a shoulda coulda woulda game. "Well, if he was more efficient, it could have went this way", and stuff like that. And IMO, thats completely pointless.

[Owl]

It doesn't matter when the percentage isn't worthy of criticism. Like say, if someone was shooting 30% a night, yes that's bad. But when comparisons between players are solely made between a percentage of like 50% and the other like 46%, I think its completely irrelevant if both were heavy contributions to the win.

And basically, it turns into a shoulda coulda woulda game. "Well, if he was more efficient, it could have went this way", and stuff like that. And IMO, thats completely pointless.
Depends completely on context (number of shots taken per game, percentage of attempted shots taken that were 3s, 3pt fg%) but assuming all those being equal say it does make a substantial difference.
If comparing guys at the same position and with the above mentioned factors being the same, even if they were only taking 2's a 5% difference over 20 shots a game = 2 points over a game. With that advantage at every position the superior shooting team has a 10 point advantage.
For exactly how big a 10 point margin of victory is, here's all the teams that have achieved it over a season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&year_min=1947&year_max=2012&franch_id=&c1stat=mov&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=wins

So where do draw the line at % not being important?

[Tenchi Ryu]

So where do draw the line at % not being important?
When both players essentially accomplish the same thing. Perfect example in this case is Durant and Rose.

They virtually do the same thing, provide a huge offensive punch for their team, lead their teams, and can be depended on to provide crucial clutch plays. But you can't necessarily say one does it better than the other considering their teams are respectably in the same spot at number one in their conferences.

And then like you said, its even more flawed considering their different styles of play and different positions. A 46% Rose percentage is not made the same as a 50% Durant percentage. You have to put in the factors on how the shot was contested and stuff like that.

Like, if both Rose and Durant provided me 40 points and we got the win, why should I care that one was on 46% and the other was on 50%?

[Cowboy Thunder]

Brian, it's Toretto. It's always been Toretto.

[DMAVS41]

Rose is EASILY a top 5 player in the league, and arguments can be made for top 3-4....

The fact DMAVS is going purely off stats is just...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And Rose not good in the clutch? You've got to be kidding me....him taking over and making crucial shots is WHY he's in the top 5 this year. Hell, he has the most gamewinning plays out of anyone this year at 4.

The ONLY players who you can have a easy time saying were better this year are Durant, Lebron, and Howard. NO one else have clear cut been better at all.

He's missed 16 games and has done nothing on the court to put him on a different tier than players 4 through 9 this year.

SMH at clearly top 5. The only logical reason you could argue that is because of his teams record....but his team is 12-4 without him. LOL

He's anywhere from 5 to 9....like I said earlier. He is not definitive top 5 at all.

[Tenchi Ryu]

He's missed 16 games and has done nothing on the court to put him on a different tier than players 4 through 9 this year.

SMH at clearly top 5. The only logical reason you could argue that is because of his teams record....but his team is 12-4 without him. LOL

He's anywhere from 5 to 9....like I said earlier. He is not definitely top 5 at all.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Call me when other players bring their teams back up from 10 point deficits, and puts them in a position to win games....on a consistent basis. Wade was terrible before this month, CP3 was too passive, Kobe was shooting too much, and Love's record is not good enough.

Like I said before, Lebron, Durant, and Howard...that's it.
And you're clearly one of the few who don't think he's not definitive top 5.

And its terrible that you blame Rose on having good teammates...WTF? Just because he doesn't have to carry scrubs does not in any way hamper his ranking, which is what you're trying to do.

[Jotaro Durant]

between durant and lbj yes depend on playoff
sorry but not rose. he team format similar isiah thomas pistons and when he won ring and fmvp no one considered him best player in league. rose isnt on level as player as those 2.

[demons2005]

He's missed 16 games and has done nothing on the court to put him on a different tier than players 4 through 9 this year.
It's one thing to place him top 10 considering he's missed games but that is the only argument for top 10. Rose is clearly a top 3 player when healthy, he was the freaking MVP last year and this year he has matured. Durant has Westbrook and Lebron is well... Lebron, you can't count him in the last quarter, and he has Wade to do his dirty work. Of those three if theyre healthy I take Rose each and every time which by definition makes him the best player in the league. This season though I give it to Durant. The only other player who has a argument with these guys is Wade and he is kind of off and on, not consistent.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[chazzy]

And its terrible that you blame Rose on having good teammates...WTF? Just because he doesn't have to carry scrubs does not in any way hamper his ranking, which is what you're trying to do.
It's brought up when team record is used in player comparisons

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Call me when other players bring their teams back up from 10 point deficits, and puts them in a position to win games....on a consistent basis. Wade was terrible before this month, CP3 was too passive, Kobe was shooting too much, and Love's record is not good enough.

Like I said before, Lebron, Durant, and Howard...that's it.
And you're clearly one of the few who don't think he's not definitive top 5.

And its terrible that you blame Rose on having good teammates...WTF? Just because he doesn't have to carry scrubs does not in any way hamper his ranking, which is what you're trying to do.

I don't penalize him for having good teammates. I simply say the teams record needs to be put into context.

And without the superior "winning"...you are left with a player that has done nothing to be him on a different tier than the guys you mentioned.

And HE'S MISSED 16 ****ING GAMES ALREADY. OUT OF 50....

If you really think Rose is on a different level than Kobe or Wade...you need help

[Tenchi Ryu]

between durant and lbj yes depend on playoff
sorry but not rose. he team format similar isiah thomas pistons and when he won ring and fmvp no one considered him best player in league. rose isnt on level as player as those 2.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/poll/conversation/_/id/132409

That's not exactly "not on their level"

[Celtics4ever]

He's missed 16 games and has done nothing on the court to put him on a different tier than players 4 through 9 this year.

SMH at clearly top 5. The only logical reason you could argue that is because of his teams record....but his team is 12-4 without him. LOL

He's anywhere from 5 to 9....like I said earlier. He is not definitive top 5 at all.

Are you mad that Dirk is not even a Top 15 player this year?

Rose is a top 3 player. He's been injured this year or else he probably would have been #1. When he has played, he has played great while being clutch.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I don't penalize him for having good teammates. I simply say the teams record needs to be put into context.

And without the superior "winning"...you are left with a player that has done nothing to be him on a different tier than the guys you mentioned.

And HE'S MISSED 16 ****ING GAMES ALREADY. OUT OF 50....

If you really think Rose is on a different level than Kobe or Wade...you need help
Who cares that he missed games due to injury....why are you penalizing him for that?

You take what he's done, and compare it to others. And yes, what he's done HAS been above Wade and Kobe's level. Wade or Kobe hasn't taken over as many games, sparked as many comebacks, made as many clutch plays, nor lead his team as good as Rose.

You keep bringing up our record, yet who you think was a big contribution to putting the Bulls in the top in the first place?

Rose-less Bulls MAINTAINED the 1st seed, but if you HONESTLY think a Rose-less team from the start would be 40-10 right now, you're the one who needs help.

[DMAVS41]

Are you mad that Dirk is not even a Top 15 player this year?

Rose is a top 3 player. He's been injured this year or else he probably would have been #1. When he has played, he has played great while being clutch.

Funny....if I used your logic. Dirk would absolutely be a top 10 player this year. Just throw out his slow start dealing with injuries and he's still a top 10 player....let alone top 15.

Which is it? Can't have it both ways....

[LockoutOver11]

the only thing interesting Ive read here so far is the what if Rose or Durant's team advanced and win... would that even further shit on lebron's legacy. Maybe even Wade's... Last year was pretty bad but atleast it can be seen as a veteran team... these are the up and coming teams,, well they are here, but they still need to make that push to the finals...

wow crazy. this generation is weird.

its 2012 and no players who got drafted in 00's have carried their team yet to a chip... you can say wade, but he had Shaq along on the ride. Still thats as close as its gotten.

[DMAVS41]

Who cares that he missed games due to injury....why are you penalizing him for that?

You take what he's done, and compare it to others. And yes, what he's done HAS been above Wade and Kobe's level.

You keep bringing up our record, yet who you think was a big contribution to putting the Bulls in the top in the first place?

Rose-less Bulls MAINTAINED the 1st seed, but if you HONESTLY think a Rose-less team from the start would be 40-10 right now, you're the one who needs help.

Ok...all I can say is I disagree. I think both Kobe and Westbrook should be ranked over Rose this year.

I'm the one being reasonable. Saying its debatable. You are losing your mind claiming Rose is for sure better than guys that he just isn't. There is absolutely nothing clear or concrete that makes Rose better than the likes of Kobe/Wade/Westbrook so far this year. Nothing.

[demons2005]

between durant and lbj yes depend on playoff
sorry but not rose. he team format similar isiah thomas pistons and when he won ring and fmvp no one considered him best player in league. rose isnt on level as player as those 2.
Rose is basically a bigger stronger Isiah, not as good as passer but a more consistent scorer. NBA experts recognize that and as such he was awarded an MVP. Isiah though would likely have been considered almost a best player in the league recently since there is kind of a void of talent after Lebron, Durant, Rose, and aging Kobe.

To sum up, I don't think you can say "Isiah wasn't the best so Rose isn't the best" because Rose was a better more complete scorer than Isiah and Isiah was playing in an era with much stronger competition

[chazzy]

How is he CLEARLY top 5? Durant, Lebron, Dwight. Then Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Kobe, CP3 in some order. Not to mention Love. The only thing clear is that Durant and Lebron are top 2.

[demons2005]

I'm the one being reasonable. Saying its debatable. You are losing your mind claiming Rose is for sure better than guys that he just isn't. There is absolutely nothing clear or concrete that makes Rose better than the likes of Kobe/Wade/Westbrook so far this year. Nothing.
In what meaningful way are Wade and Westbrook better than Rose (I'll leave Kobe out of this I think he is a big inspiration to Rose). Wade is good at getting you stats but he has been incredibly inconsistent as a leader. He has missed playoffs a couple times in his PRIME which never happens to the best of the best. He also has Lebron doing his dirty work.

Westbrook is next to Kevin Durant the best pure scorer in the league but still turns the ball over almost as much as he assists. That is sad on two counts, he cant get assists with an alltime great shooter, and he insists on dominating the ball and hence turning it over more with an all time despite playing next to freaking durant.

Rose is the most focused, competitive player since Kobe and the results speak for themselves, back to back best records, intangibles off the charts, and one of if not the best closers in the game. hard to beat that.

[DMAVS41]

How is he CLEARLY top 5? Durant, Lebron, Dwight. Then Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Kobe, CP3 in some order. Not to mention Love. The only thing clear is that Durant and Lebron are top 2.

Bingo....

Any logical opinion without bias would say the following.

Lebron and Durant clear cut two best
Howard the third best

4-9 could be in any order

Kobe
Westbrook
Love
Wade
Paul
Rose

[DMAVS41]

In what meaningful way are Wade and Westbrook better than Rose (I'll leave Kobe out of this I think he is a big inspiration to Rose). Wade is good at getting you stats but he has been incredibly inconsistent as a leader. He has missed playoffs a couple times in his PRIME which never happens to the best of the best. He also has Lebron doing his dirty work.

Westbrook is next to Kevin Durant the best pure scorer in the league but still turns the ball over almost as much as he assists. That is sad on two counts, he cant get assists with an alltime great shooter, and he insists on dominating the ball and hence turning it over more with an all time despite playing next to freaking durant.

Rose is the most focused, competitive player since Kobe and the results speak for themselves, back to back best records, intangibles off the charts, and one of if not the best closers in the game. hard to beat that.

These are all just your opinions. Which is fine. I just disagree with them.

WHICH IS WHY ITS ****ING DEBATABLE....:wtf:

[demons2005]

How is he CLEARLY top 5? Durant, Lebron, Dwight. Then Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Kobe, CP3 in some order. Not to mention Love. The only thing clear is that Durant and Lebron are top 2.
I have addressed these two. I won't even bother with someone who thinks C "gotta keep up my PER even if it means losing ever game" P3. Kobe is great and my second favorite player but he's aging and has passed the torch to Rose. That leaves 4. I've already made my case for why Rose healthy is #1, either noone could refute it. Instead of forcing us to rehash the arguments we made, please read whats already been written and try to see if there are weaknesses in those arguments.

That seems to be a trait of the rose haters: can't read, just like to post the same old criticisms without reading the responses.

[guy]

I don't really see any argument for Westbrook over Rose other then the fact that he hasn't missed so many games. For this year alone, I'd probably rank him ahead just cause of that. But I don't see how you can put Westbrook over healthy MVP Rose considering he averages almost as many turnovers as assists and doesn't get nearly as double-teamed as much as Rose.

[Tenchi Ryu]

How is he CLEARLY top 5? Durant, Lebron, Dwight. Then Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Kobe, CP3 in some order. Not to mention Love. The only thing clear is that Durant and Lebron are top 2.
Out of those 5...Rose has been the better leader, the most clutch, the most consistent, and the biggest threat out of ALL of them.

Show me Wade, Westbrook, Kobe and CP3 getting double teamed on a frequent basis, and still putting up good numbers.

[demons2005]

These are all just your opinions. Which is fine. I just disagree with them.

WHICH IS WHY ITS ****ING DEBATABLE....:wtf:
I never said it wasn't debatable, I just wish the rose doubters would take the time to read the posts that techni, myself, and others make on practically every thread that get totally ignored as they repeat the same things over and over that are ADDRESSED in those posts. IF you want to have a debate you have to listen to the other side otherwise it doesnt work

[DMAVS41]

I never said it wasn't debatable, I just wish the rose doubters would take the time to read the posts that techni, myself, and others make on practically every thread that get totally ignored as they repeat the same things over and over that are ADDRESSED in those posts. IF you want to have a debate you have to listen to the other side otherwise it doesnt work

But its all opinion. Mine is different. I don't think Rose is as good as you do. And then when I bring up stats and evidence....

You bring up more subjective areas like heart and leadership...etc.

And the big thing that is often brought up is his inferior teammates and how he "carries" them....well, that has officially been blown out of the ****ing water.

So you are left with a player that has been very good this year, but clearly not top 3 and somewhere in the 4 to 9 range

Here's a hint Rose fans. Saying Kobe or Wade or Paul are as good or better than Rose so far this year is not hating. Not even close to hating. Wake the **** up and come back to reality.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I don't really see any argument for Westbrook over Rose other then the fact that he hasn't missed so many games. For this year alone, I'd probably rank him ahead just cause of that. But I don't see how you can put Westbrook over healthy MVP Rose considering he averages almost as many turnovers as assists and doesn't get nearly as double-teamed as much as Rose.
This

[Tenchi Ryu]

Here's a hint Rose fans. Saying Kobe or Wade or Paul are as good or better than Rose so far this year is not hating. Not even close to hating. Wake the **** up and come back to reality.
No one said it was hating...well at least not me. But when the general consensus considers Rose a top 5 player, MANY former NBA superstars of the likes of Magic and Isiah consider him the best PG in the league, and he's widely known as the most unstoppable one on one player in the league who's dominating force is ONLY rivaled by Lebron, then it makes sense so many consider him an automatic top 5, and that's being nice. A good number of people have him at top 3. Hell, with ESPN sportsnation, out of 92,000 people...50 percent....50...said they would choose Rose over Lebron. Hard to see a player not at least top 3-5 get this recognition.

[demons2005]

But its all opinion. Mine is different. I don't think Rose is as good as you do. And then when I bring up stats and evidence....

You bring up more subjective areas like heart and leadership...etc.

And the big thing that is often brought up is his inferior teammates and how he "carries" them....well, that has officially been blown out of the ****ing water.

So you are left with a player that has been very good this year, but clearly not top 3 and somewhere in the 4 to 9 range

Here's a hint Rose fans. Saying Kobe or Wade or Paul are as good or better than Rose so far this year is not hating. Not even close to hating. Wake the **** up and come back to reality.
How are intangibles irrelevant to this discussion? I have explained why I brought up heart and leadership. I have also explained many times why stats don't capture all of Rose, though his are still among the best in the league. I don't write this stuff for my pleasure, I write it to educate the public and I wish the public would read it instead of talking past me. It is a little disheartening to know that the months ive spent on here and even regular posters who you often in threads with havent even bothered to read or refute the arguments you've presented 100 times instead it's "throw as much dirt at Rose as possible and see if something sticks". And YES it is hating to say CP is as good Rose. paul has been exposed as incredibly overrated this season with his failure to turn a loaded Clippers team into contenders. Also, How did Paul and Rose do the last two times they were matched up?

[Celtics4ever]

But its all opinion. Mine is different. I don't think Rose is as good as you do. And then when I bring up stats and evidence....

You bring up more subjective areas like heart and leadership...etc.

And the big thing that is often brought up is his inferior teammates and how he "carries" them....well, that has officially been blown out of the ****ing water.

So you are left with a player that has been very good this year, but clearly not top 3 and somewhere in the 4 to 9 range

Here's a hint Rose fans. Saying Kobe or Wade or Paul are as good or better than Rose so far this year is not hating. Not even close to hating. Wake the **** up and come back to reality.

I dont think Dirk is that good as you think either. Top 15-20 player this season

[DMAVS41]

No one said it was hating...well at least not me. But when the general consensus considers Rose a top 5 player, MANY former NBA superstars of the likes of Magic and Isiah consider him the best PG in the league, and he's widely known as the most unstoppable one on one player in the league who's dominating force is ONLY rivaled by Lebron, then it makes sense so many consider him a EASY 5, and thats being nice. A good number of people have him at top 3.

And JVG said Westbrook was better last night. Consensus opinion is a terrible way to debate. Its just more opinions. How many games of Rose does everyone watch?

Do they so quickly forget the ECF and the playoffs last year?

From an objective point of view. Rose has done nothing this year to separate himself from that 4 to 9 group. Nothing. The only way to put him on a different level is just using "popular opinion"....and we shouldn't be reduced to the moronic levels of ESPN drones here on a message board.

[DMAVS41]

I dont think Dirk is that good as you think either. Top 15-20 player this season

Ok...great. :wtf:

[DMAVS41]

How are intangibles irrelevant to this discussion? I have explained why I brought up heart and leadership. I have also explained many times why stats don't capture all of Rose, though his are still among the best in the league. I don't write this stuff for my pleasure, I write it to educate the public and I wish the public would read it instead of talking past me. It is a little disheartening to know that the months ive spent on here and even regular posters who you often in threads with havent even bothered to read or refute the arguments you've presented 100 times instead it's "throw as much dirt at Rose as possible and see if something sticks". And YES it is hating to say CP is as good Rose. paul has been exposed as incredibly overrated this season with his failure to turn a loaded Clippers team into contenders. Also, How did Paul and Rose do the last two times they were matched up?

Because you could argue that guys like Wade/Kobe/Paul have just as much "intangibles" as Rose.

Kobe and Wade especially have proven far more than Rose ever has.

You aren't making refutable arguments. That is your problem. You just say:

"Rose is a better leader"....Ok? I disagree. Then what?

[Tenchi Ryu]

And JVG said Westbrook was better last night. Consensus opinion is a terrible way to debate. Its just more opinions. How many games of Rose does everyone watch?

Do they so quickly forget the ECF and the playoffs last year?

From an objective point of view. Rose has done nothing this year to separate himself from that 4 to 9 group. Nothing. The only way to put him on a different level is just using "popular opinion"....and we shouldn't be reduced to the moronic levels of ESPN drones here on a message board.
ECF and playoffs last year mean nothing now though. Rose definitely wasn't top 5 last year, the fact that he's always in top 5 discussion now show value to his improvement.

I wouldn't even say objective, but rather statistical point of view, true that Rose might not be separating himself from those players, but there is a big reason why he has so many high-valued opinions about his ranking in the league.

Its a testament to why intangibles should never be written off. I can't see 47,000 people picking Rose over Lebron for no reason. No one else gets this honor in the league except maybe Durant at this point.

[DMAVS41]

ECF and playoffs last year mean nothing now though. Rose definitely wasn't top 5 last year, the fact that he's always in top 5 discussion now show value to his improvement.

I wouldn't even say objective, but rather statistical point of view, true that Rose might not be separating himself from those players, but there is a big reason why he has so many high-valued opinions about his ranking in the league.

Its a testament to why intangibles should never be written off. I can't see 47,000 people picking Rose over Lebron for no reason. No one else gets this honor in the league except maybe Durant at this point.

But you have to make room for somebody else not thinking the same way though. And in this instance it is me. I don't think Rose has superior intangibles that lead to anything relevant on the court.

And when you readily admit that he's done nothing tangible to separate himself from those guys we've mentioned....then you are conceding that he is somewhere in that group.

Where he is in that group is debatable. Just like I've said all along.

[chazzy]

A good number of people have him at top 3. Hell, with ESPN sportsnation, out of 92,000 people...50 percent....50...said they would choose Rose over Lebron. Hard to see a player not at least top 3-5 get this recognition.
That poll was from a month ago and everyone hates Lebron :lol There's currently an ESPN poll that has Kobe ranked 3 all time.

[Heavincent]

As far as the best player in the league goes...that title goes to Durant and I think that is pretty clear.

[liquidrage]

I find people that are huge fans of a certain player to the point of blinding zealotry highly annoying.

Rose "kinda" deserved the MVP last year. I think it was really Howard, but whatever. That never meant Rose was a Top x player in the league. It doesn't mean you can't believe he is Top x, but the MVP has nothing to do with it. MVP is as much the "story" as anything. And I never once thought he was on KD's level even though Rose has an MVP and Durant doesn't.

Lebron, KD, Howard and Wade are all people I'd put ahead of Rose. Even without the injuries this year I think Love and Westbrook have been better. I don't know if I'd rank either above Rose, but I could see any order for either of them.

To put it in comparison, in hockey Corey Perry won the "MVP" last year. He's not even a Top 20 player. But he had a magical year and completely deserved. It the NBA it's rarer for that to happen, but still, in no world was Rose ever top 3ish. And he's not on Lebron's level. Or Wades. Or Howards. Or KD's.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I find people that are huge fans of a certain player to the point of blinding zealotry highly annoying.

Its not like its just Bulls/Rose fans though at this point. Its on a national level. And you just simply don't get the recognition Rose has gotten if not at a certain rank. Rose is getting constantly compared to CP3 now for a reason. Rose is being compared to Miami's big 3 in the ECF for a reason. In reality, all you have to do is look at the court, the respect and value is right there. What other player in the league gets as much defense as Rose thrown at him? What other player has plays set up SOLELY to STOP HIM and try to keep him and him alone form scoring. What other player has so far warranted the attention of the entire Miami Heat defense to look and watch him constantly.

But I agree with you DMAVS that it can be debated. MY opinion is that he's automatic 5, in reality, I got him at top 3. What I'm saying is that for all the people saying it can be debated he's not top 5, it can be debated he is. Same with Lebron and Durant at 1 and 2 honestly. You could start asking questions like, what makes Durant better than Wade, or Cp3 and the likes of that. Its ALL debatable really.

[DMAVS41]

Its not like its just Bulls/Rose fans though at this point. Its on a national level. And you just simply don't get the recognition Rose has gotten if not at a certain rank. Rose is getting constantly compared to CP3 now for a reason. Rose is being compared to Miami's big 3 in the ECF for a reason. In reality, all you have to do is look at the court, the respect and value is right there. What other player in the league gets as much defense as Rose thrown at him? What other player has plays set up SOLELY to STOP HIM and try to keep him and him alone form scoring. What other player has so far warranted the attention of the entire Miami Heat defense to look and watch him constantly.

But I agree with you DMAVS that it can be debated. MY opinion is that he's automatic 5, in reality, I got him at top 3. What I'm saying is that for all the people saying it can be debated he's not top 5, it can be debated he is. Same with Lebron and Durant at 1 and 2 honestly. You could start asking questions like, what makes Durant better than Wade, or Cp3 and the likes of that. Its ALL debatable really.

I agree with most of this, but Lebron and Durant are really clearly the top 2 players so far this year. I guess you could make a case for Howard in there possibly...but absolutely not anyone else.

[MASH Transit]

Rose is EASILY a top 5 player in the league, and arguments can be made for top 3-4....

The fact DMAVS is going purely off stats is just...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

And Rose not good in the clutch? You've got to be kidding me....him taking over and making crucial shots is WHY he's in the top 5 this year. Hell, he has the most gamewinning plays out of anyone this year at 4.

The ONLY players who you can have a easy time saying were better this year are Durant, Lebron, and Howard. NO one else have clear cut been better at all.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Wade/Love

Whose he better than and how? All of these players are posting better numbers, and none of them have missed 16 of their team's games.

[DMAVS41]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Wade/Love

Whose he better than and how? All of these players are posting better numbers, and none of them have missed 16 of their team's games.

He's come off it now. That post isn't representative of how he feels.

[Tenchi Ryu]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Wade/Love

Whose he better than and how? All of these players are posting better numbers, and none of them have missed 16 of their team's games.
He has cases over those 3. I've stated why a page or 2 back.

[Indian guy]

This is how I see it.

1) Durant/Rose
2) Rose/Durant
3) Howard
4) Kobe
5) Wade

Try to look beyond numbers, people.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Try to look beyond numbers, people.
Exactly my point.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly my point.

But you have to understand that when people post numbers its not solely the reason.

Honestly...when I watch the game? I think Westbrook, Wade, Kobe, Love, and Paul are all better players than Rose this year.

And then when I go look at the numbers...etc. Its close. So instead of me coming on here doing what you do...which is:

ZOMG...how could you not put Rose in the top 5.

I simply say its close and Rose could be as high as 4 and as low as 9. Where I draw the line is with anyone claiming Rose has been better than Lebron, Durant, and Howard this year. That is simply bullshit.

[MASH Transit]

Out of those 5...Rose has been the better leader

From the bench?


the most clutch, the most consistent, and the biggest threat out of ALL of them.

These are all lies.


Show me Wade, Westbrook, Kobe and CP3 getting double teamed on a frequent basis, and still putting up good numbers.

Show me Rose consistently being double teamed and still putting up good numbers. I'll wait.

[Tenchi Ryu]

From the bench?

Actually, at times yea....Chris Webber even commented on that during the TNT game against Orlando.



These are all lies.
Its not, we even have a thread called "2012 clutch plays" or something like that.





Show me Rose consistently being double teamed and still putting up good numbers. I'll wait.
His current stats. Especially in the second half, and thats when he usually flourishes.

[BlueandGold]

Bad comparison because there is no way AI would have been the better player over Shaq that year even if he won.
If he won the top15 all-time NBA players would be much different than they are today. AI didn't have another killer in Kobe behind him in Philly. Hell people argue that AI's supporting cast in 01 is the worst ever for a star player and a Finals berth.

In hindsight it's of course ludicrous to say that AI is better or the same level as Shaq, but during that 2001 season there was definitely that debate, if it was AI or Shaq that was the better player. Hell the league that season supposedly thought AI was the better player since he was the one who received MVP honors that year. And this is with the "**** the system" attitude that he has going then and still now. It wasn't like this was Mr.Clean Cut Jordan getting all the love from MVP voters, this was mr. screw the establishment Allen Iverson getting the nod over everyone that year. And as many posters would like to point out given the politics of the league, no small feat. Image someone like Sprewell getting MVP.. especially in 1999 when the Knicks made the Finals.

[MASH Transit]

He has cases over those 3. I've stated why a page or 2 back.

I'm waiting for you to prove that he's better than Howard, CP3, Wade, and Love.

All of them are posting better numbers, historically good in two of their cases(Howard, Love). None of them have missed 16 games. One of them has a ring and has been to the finals twice. One of them has won the defensive player of the year award twice, will win it again, and has led his team to the finals.

I don't want your opinion. I want you to prove, with either statistical or floor analysis, that Rose has been better than any of the above players this season, and that he's undoubtedly a top 3 player.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I don't want your opinion. I want you to prove, with either statistical or floor analysis, that Rose has been better than any of the above players this season, and that he's undoubtedly a top 3 player.
This is why we can never debate this, cause everytime, you want stats and nothing but stats. You refuse to look at the intangibles, and with Rose, you HAVE to include them, its part of what makes him a superstar in the first place.

"Wade or Kobe hasn't taken over as many games, sparked as many comebacks, made as many clutch plays, nor lead his team as good as Rose."

And that's ALL true, and I put that into the who's better than who debate, not just stats.

[MASH Transit]

Actually, at times yea....Chris Webber even commented on that during the TNT game against Orlando.

:facepalm


Its not, we even have a thread called "2012 clutch plays" or something like that.

Actually, every single claim you posted was a lie. Rose is nowhere near "the most clutch player in the league".

Clutch Stats
http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

The above is not an opinion, it's a mathematical truth.



His current stats. Especially in the second half, and thats when he usually flourishes.

This doesn't show me anything, and his clutch stats aren't impressive.

[Tenchi Ryu]

:facepalm



Actually, every single claim you posted was a lie. Rose is nowhere near "the most clutch player in the league".

Clutch Stats
http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

The above is not an opinion, it's a mathematical truth.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

This is exactly my point...anybody who watches him can easily tell you he's been on of the clutchest players in the league.

guy even explained how using the stat sheet was flawed.


DMAVS stats are all based on 5:00 left in the 4th and OT in 5 point games.

I can't speak for FTs but for FGs these are his stats with 3:00 left in the 4th and OT in 5 point games:

last 3 min: 11-25
last 2 min: 9-17
last 1 min: 7-11
last 24 sec: 5-7

shots to tie or take the lead:

last 2 min: 5-10
last 1 min: 5-8
last 24 sec: 4-6
last 5 sec: 2-3

That is VERY GOOD. By the way, his FG stats are 11-32 with 5 minutes left in 5 point games. That means he's 0-7 between 3 and 5 minutes in 5 point games. Clearly its a small sample size, and mostly an abberation given how well he's shot under 3 min left.

[MASH Transit]

This is why we can never debate this, cause everytime, you want stats and nothing but stats.

Why is that other star players(LeBron, Durant, Love, Howard, etc) have the numbers to go along with their rankings, accolades, and perceived worth? Why is it Rose, and Rose alone whose numbers don't quite match up with his fans perceptions of his talent level?

An observation I found interesting.


You refuse to look at the intangibles, and with Rose, you HAVE to include them, its part of what makes him a superstar in the first place.

Intangibles don't make you a superstar, production does. Otherwise Grant Hill, Tim Tebow, and players of their ilk would be the best of the best in their respective sports.


Wade or Kobe hasn't taken over as many games, sparked as many comebacks, made as many clutch plays, nor lead his team as good as Rose."

I didn't say Kobe was better than Rose, but not only has Wade played more of his teams games than Rose, but he's been better in the games he has played. Moreover, Wade has proven himself clutch multiple times this season and in the past and owns one of the greatest finals performances of all time to fall back on.


And that's ALL true, and I put that into the who's better than who debate, not just stats.

No, all of that is your opinion, and your opinion is hollow.


An opinion is worthless without something concrete to legitimize it. You should keep that in mind.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

last night, it looked like Durant was clearly the best SF in the NBA and the leader for MVP.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

This is exactly my point...anybody who watches him can easily tell you he's been on of the clutchest players in the league.

guy even explained how using the stat sheet was flawed.

Even if you want to use different stats or ignore the accepted criteria of crunch time.

The sample size is absurdly small...only 42 minutes of crunch time play for the accepted standard and what has to be considerably less for the 3 minutes standard.

And you can't ignore free throws. Where Rose is 65% in crunch time. Yet Rose shoots 90% in the 4th qtrs. Think about that....think about how huge of a let down that is. Goes from 90 to 65 late in tight games...and he's getting there a ton...15 free throws per 36.

Rose has not been one of the most clutch guys in the league so far because he hasn't played enough close games. 42 minutes. Westbrook conversely has played 119 minutes.

I'm sorry, but you just can't have a debate where your entire argument is centered around popular opinion or "intangibles"....

[Heavincent]

This is how I see it.

1) Durant/Rose
2) Rose/Durant
3) Howard
4) Kobe
5) Wade

Try to look beyond numbers, people.

Not too bad.

My list goes something like this:

1.) Durant
2.) Lebron
3.) Dwight/Kobe
4.) Kobe/Dwight
5.) Rose

The top 10 is extremely subjective though. That's something a lot of people on ISH don't seem to understand.

[MASH Transit]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

This is exactly my point...anybody who watches him can easily tell you he's been on of the clutchest players in the league.

Are you dense? This isn't some mathematical formula that combines algorithms that produce queer results. These are a record of what Rose has done in the clutch. These are truths, not opinions. It correlates exactly with what you're watching, it just doesn't lie to you.


guy even explained how using the stat sheet was flawed.

Who the **** is he? His opinion is as worthless as yours, and I'd side with the credentials of advanced statisticians over the likes of he or you and do so comfortably and happily.

[guy]

Clutch Stats
http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

The above is not an opinion, it's a mathematical truth.


Rose isn't even on that list. So Tony Allen is a better clutch player then Derrick Rose? :oldlol:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Not too bad.

My list goes something like this:

1.) Durant
2.) Lebron
3.) Dwight/Kobe
4.) Kobe/Dwight
5.) Rose

The top 10 is extremely subjective though. That's something a lot of people on ISH don't seem to understand.

Ill take a shot at it....
Durant
Lebron
Rose
Dwight
DWade
Kobe
CP3

[Tenchi Ryu]

Ill take a shot at it....
Durant
Lebron
Rose
Dwight
DWade
Kobe
CP3
That's pretty much how mine looks.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Rose isn't even on that list. So Tony Allen is a better clutch player then Derrick Rose? :oldlol:
According to stats > all king Mash transit, he is.

And really, comparing Rose to Tim Tebow?

[MASH Transit]

According to stats > all king Mash transit, he is.

And really, comparing Rose to Tim Tebow?

I'm still waiting for you to prove a single claim you've made in this thread. Just one.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'm still waiting for you to prove a single claim you've made in this thread. Just one.
Why should I when multiple people claim exactly what I do. You have to prove something when defending your case, but multiple people here and everywhere else already agree with me. You try to play it off like its a minority that consider Rose as an elite, when its far from that. For everyone 1 person like you who downplay, there is 2 who say exactly what I'm saying...

And you already stated that opinions other than yours are worthless, so again, whats the point of proving anything to you when your opinion will always be > than all?

[MASH Transit]

Why should I when multiple people claim exactly what I do. You have to prove something when defending your case, but multiple people here and everywhere else already agree with me. You try to play it off like its a minority that consider Rose as an elite, when its far from that. For everyone 1 person like you who downplay, there is 2 who say exactly what I'm saying...

And you already stated that opinions other than yours are worthless, so again, whats the point of proving anything to you when your opinion will always be > than all?

So you can't prove shit?


You're worthless. An embarrassment to your fan base. :facepalm

[Tenchi Ryu]

So you can't prove shit?


You're worthless. An embarrassment to your fan base. :facepalm
Yet I'm the one with more people supporting MY claim then you have supporting yours...there's an embarrassment to a fanbase here alright.

And like you said earlier, who the **** was guy, the same thing could be said about you. Who are you? Why should I care about your opinion when you don't care about others?

[NumberSix]

last night, it looked like Durant was clearly the best SF in the NBA and the leader for MVP.
Key words "last night". Durant was clearly the better player...... last night.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I have some random guy on the internet telling me Rose isn't that great, and using flawed stats.

Then I have respected NBA legends who are basically saying exactly what I've been saying....like its really a hard choice who I'd listen to more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8pewiNdLHs

[NumberSix]

Why should I when multiple people claim exactly what I do. You have to prove something when defending your case, but multiple people here and everywhere else already agree with me.
This is not really an argument I would ever make. Throughout the entire history of the world, the majority has almost always been wrong about everything. That's because almost all people are just mindless sheep who think what they're told to think. The people who smart and progress things are a very small amount.

[guy]

Even if you want to use different stats or ignore the accepted criteria of crunch time.

The sample size is absurdly small...only 42 minutes of crunch time play for the accepted standard and what has to be considerably less for the 3 minutes standard.

And you can't ignore free throws. Where Rose is 65% in crunch time. Yet Rose shoots 90% in the 4th qtrs. Think about that....think about how huge of a let down that is. Goes from 90 to 65 late in tight games...and he's getting there a ton...15 free throws per 36.

Rose has not been one of the most clutch guys in the league so far because he hasn't played enough close games. 42 minutes. Westbrook conversely has played 119 minutes.

I'm sorry, but you just can't have a debate where your entire argument is centered around popular opinion or "intangibles"....

Ignore accepted criteria? Just because its accepted criteria, does not mean its not flawed like many stats. There's a huge difference between the last 3 minutes and the 3-5 minute mark. Do you not think that?

If you combine those stats with the stats I displayed, the story it really says is that he's been relatively great FG% wise in the last 3 minutes and has been pretty bad from the 3-5 minute mark. And in the last 3 minutes he's taken 25 shots and hit 11 while from the 3-5 minute mark he's taken 7 shots and hit 0 of them. Considering the much of a smaller sample size of shots from 3-5 minutes vs. the last 3 minutes and the fact that its highly doubtful that Rose is more shaken up mentally during from 3-5 minutes vs. the last 3 minutes, that 0-7 during that time frame is probably an abberation vs. something indicative of his clutch ability.

I was able to get the FT stat with 3 minutes left and <5 point games. He's 9-15.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/event_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=rosede01&event_code=fta&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&quarter=4&time_remain_quarter=0-3&margin=0-5

Not very good I will admit. But not bad enough IMO to say he's not one of the most clutch players in the league. He's hit way too many huge shots otherwise for me to say that.

[DMAVS41]

I have some random guy on the internet telling me Rose isn't that great, and using flawed stats.

Then I have respected NBA legends who are basically saying exactly what I've been saying....like its really a hard choice who I'd listen to more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8pewiNdLHs

Who is saying Rose isn't great? Nobody.

Again....the sheer absurdity of Rose fans to act "butthurt" when people say guys like Kobe, Wade, Love, Westbrook, and Paul are on his level or better so far this year is comical.

I thought you finally came around. Do you or do you not agree that Rose could be as high as 4 but as low as 9 this year so far?

[Tenchi Ryu]

Who is saying Rose isn't great? Nobody.

Again....the sheer absurdity of Rose fans to act "butthurt" when people say guys like Kobe, Wade, Love, Westbrook, and Paul are on his level or better so far this year is comical.

I thought you finally came around. Do you or do you not agree that Rose could be as high as 4 but as low as 9 this year so far?
That's not the issue. You and I are speaking with possibilities and variables in mind. Mash Transit is NOT. Its the same nothing but absolutes bullshit.

[DMAVS41]

Ignore accepted criteria? Just because its accepted criteria, does not mean its not flawed like many stats. There's a huge difference between the last 3 minutes and the 3-5 minute mark. Do you not think that?

If you combine those stats with the stats I displayed, the story it really says is that he's been relatively great FG% wise in the last 3 minutes and has been pretty bad from the 3-5 minute mark. And in the last 3 minutes he's taken 25 shots and hit 11 while from the 3-5 minute mark he's taken 7 shots and hit 0 of them. Considering the much of a smaller sample size of shots from 3-5 minutes vs. the last 3 minutes and the fact that its highly doubtful that Rose is more shaken up mentally during from 3-5 minutes vs. the last 3 minutes, that 0-7 during that time frame is probably an abberation vs. something indicative of his clutch ability.

I was able to get the FT stat with 3 minutes left and <5 point games. He's 9-15.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/event_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=rosede01&event_code=fta&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&quarter=4&time_remain_quarter=0-3&margin=0-5

Not very good I will admit. But not bad enough IMO to say he's not one of the most clutch players in the league. He's hit way too many huge shots otherwise for me to say that.

Nobody is saying Rose is shook. It is simply about performance. That is all. I'm not one of those...ZOMG...he's a choker guys.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with yours. I'm saying its not the accepted criteria....and I want it to be as broad as possible....especially with the limited sample size so far this season.

What I do know is that Rose is shooting 34% from the field, 0% from three, and 65% from the ft line for a 42% TS mark in the last 5 minutes of close games this year.

Its a limited sample size...you bet. But its limited partly for the reason I don't rank Rose higher this year. He's missed 25% of the season....and when he has played. He's been very good...nobody is disputing that. But so have the likes of the players that can be ranked over him so far.

[guy]

Nobody is saying Rose is shook. It is simply about performance. That is all. I'm not one of those...ZOMG...he's a choker guys.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with yours. I'm saying its not the accepted criteria....and I want it to be as broad as possible....especially with the limited sample size so far this season.

What I do know is that Rose is shooting 34% from the field, 0% from three, and 65% from the ft line for a 42% TS mark in the last 5 minutes of close games this year.

Its a limited sample size...you bet. But its limited partly for the reason I don't rank Rose higher this year. He's missed 25% of the season....and when he has played. He's been very good...nobody is disputing that. But so have the likes of the players that can be ranked over him so far.

There's a huge difference between the last 3 minutes and the 3-5 minute mark correct? I don't really understand why you are trying to make timeframe as broad as possible. The pressure and intensity of a game is much greater in the last 3 minutes then the previous 2. Whether its the accepted criteria or not, its very flawed, just like stats like + or - and PER have its flaws.

[Tenchi Ryu]

This is not really an argument I would ever make. Throughout the entire history of the world, the majority has almost always been wrong about everything. That's because almost all people are just mindless sheep who think what they're told to think. The people who smart and progress things are a very small amount.
True, but that doesn't really apply to sports since one of the main purposes is to entertain. So in a case like this, especially the NBA, the better player usually is favored by the majority, unless he does some villain shit like Lebron. And even that has died down.

[DMAVS41]

There's a huge difference between the last 3 minutes and the 3-5 minute mark correct? I don't really understand why you are trying to make timeframe as broad as possible. The pressure and intensity of a game is much greater in the last 3 minutes then the previous 2. Whether its the accepted criteria or not, its very flawed, just like stats like + or - and PER have its flaws.

Because you want more information. You were the one that brought up sample size....and rightfully so. I didn't realize how few minutes Rose has played in crunch time.

But I definitely think the 5 minute metric is better. It captures more data. So we should ignore those other 2 minutes when Rose has been terrible?

Or his ft shooting?

The truth is there just isn't a big enough sample size for Rose so far this year, but there is a big enough one for Westbrook. And Westbrook has been better with a larger sample size.

[guy]

Because you want more information. You were the one that brought up sample size....and rightfully so. I didn't realize how few minutes Rose has played in crunch time.

But I definitely think the 5 minute metric is better. It captures more data. So we should ignore those other 2 minutes when Rose has been terrible?

Or his ft shooting?

The truth is there just isn't a big enough sample size for Rose so far this year, but there is a big enough one for Westbrook. And Westbrook has been better with a larger sample size.

Why don't you use the whole quarter then since it captures more data? As far as clutch ability goes, no I think those other 2 minutes are not that relevant. With 5 minutes left, a team could be up by double digits and the game still isn't out of reach. The intensity and the sense of urgency just isn't as significant. Sure it matters cause obviously it contributes to the game, but I just don't see it as the same.

I didn't disregard his FT shooting. I didn't even need the stats to say he's not that great. Definitely could be better, but he's been great enough FG% wise down the stretch that he's nowhere near "poor" overall in the clutch like you said.

[MASH Transit]

That's not the issue. You and I are speaking with possibilities and variables in mind. Mash Transit is NOT. Its the same nothing but absolutes bullshit.

All I asked was for you to prove, or at the very least make a case with evidence and or facts as its foundation, for Rose being better than Howard, Love, and Wade. That's it. Why is that such a glutenous request?


Why is it so absurd to suggest that Kevin Love, for example, is better than Derrick Rose? The guy is averaging 26/14/2 on 46% shooting and 57ts%. He just scored 51 the other night(greater that Rose's career high), and has logged multiple 30-20 games this season. That makes 7 since he's come into the league, almost doubling the next best player, Dwight Howard. These are historically great numbers he's posting this season, and he's adding clutch play to top it off(more clutch than Rose). In addition, he had the Minnesota freaking Timberwolves, who were perennial trash, in the playoffs until Rubio and Pekovic went down with injuries. And they're still in contention! Due, in no small part, to him stepping up his play in their absence. As of now, he is hands down the best player at his position.

What has Rose done this season to suggest he deserves credited as a better player than Kevin Love, given the above? Keep in mind Rose is missing his 17th game of the season, and his team is 12-4 without him.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Why is it so absurd to suggest that Kevin Love, for example, is better than Derrick Rose?
Never had a problem with that, you could always make statements like that, and that's how debates can commence. Hell, IMO thats how top 10 should work, ALL 10 should have cases over the other. But you always say how stuff can't be, or how its just not this or not that.

Personally, I believe what I believe of Rose, but I never tell people they can't believe what they do.

And when you ask me why I feel certain ways about Rose, you always reject them, especially when its not focused on stats.

[MASH Transit]

Never had a problem with that, you could always make statements like that, and that's how debates can commence. Hell, IMO thats how top 10 should work, ALL 10 should have cases over the other. But you always say how stuff can't be, or how its just not this or not that.

Personally, I believe what I believe of Rose, but I never tell people they can't believe what they do.

And when you ask me why I feel certain ways about Rose, you always reject them, especially when its not focused on stats.

You must be a christian, or a catholic? I mean, you're definitely religious, right?

[Tenchi Ryu]

You must be a christian, or a catholic? Or... you're religious?
I think there's a god and leave it at that...
:coleman: :coleman: :coleman:

[MASH Transit]

I think there's a god and leave it at that...
:coleman: :coleman: :coleman:

I believe there's a God as well, as some things are faith based. Basketball isn't one of those things.

I also believe in supporting what I say, constructing my opinions upon facts, and having legitimate reasons for my beliefs. These things don't seem to hold value to you. You're, "well, that's just my opinion man, I don't need to support it" is elementary and a cop out.

[DMAVS41]

Why don't you use the whole quarter then since it captures more data? As far as clutch ability goes, no I think those other 2 minutes are not that relevant. With 5 minutes left, a team could be up by double digits and the game still isn't out of reach. The intensity and the sense of urgency just isn't as significant. Sure it matters cause obviously it contributes to the game, but I just don't see it as the same.

I didn't disregard his FT shooting. I didn't even need the stats to say he's not that great. Definitely could be better, but he's been great enough FG% wise down the stretch that he's nowhere near "poor" overall in the clutch like you said.

Because the game might not be close.

I just disagree completely....minutes 3 to 5 of a tight game in the 4th are not worthless. You could easily blow the game open in those two minutes and never get to the 3 minute mark.

You act like I'm saying its a perfect measure. Its not. But I definitely like it more than just the last 3 minutes.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I believe there's a God as well, as some things are faith based. Basketball isn't one of those things.

I also believe in supporting what I say, constructing my opinions upon facts, and having legitimate reasons for my beliefs. These things don't seem to hold value to you. You're, "well, that's just my opinion man, I don't need to support it" is elementary and a cop out.
I do support it, thing is my support is what I see, not a stat sheet. And its not exactly easy to share this when you don't watch Bulls basketball on a somewhat occasional basis.

[guy]

Because the game might not be close.

I just disagree completely....minutes 3 to 5 of a tight game in the 4th are not worthless. You could easily blow the game open in those two minutes and never get to the 3 minute mark.

You act like I'm saying its a perfect measure. Its not. But I definitely like it more than just the last 3 minutes.

Not really. If at the 4 or 5 minute mark a team is down 5 and then the opposing team hits a 3 and goes up 8, they are still very much in the game regardless. You can even argue the same thing for the 3 minute mark. Not saying its worthless, but the game is has not been close to decided at that point. But under 2 minutes, under 3 minutes at the most, the same can't be said and one basket can really put the game away depending on momentum or lack of it.

[DMAVS41]

Not really. If at the 4 or 5 minute mark a team is down 5 and then the opposing team hits a 3 and goes up 8, they are still very much in the game regardless. You can even argue the same thing for the 3 minute mark. Not saying its worthless, but the game is has not been close to decided at that point. But under 2 minutes, under 3 minutes at the most, the same can't be said and one basket can really put the game away depending on momentum or lack of it.

There are a million different examples I could give you....and you could give me.

Nothing will ever be perfect.

That 5 minute mark to me is the most reasonable time frame.

To you above example. Lets say a team is tied with 5 minutes to go. In the next two minutes they go on a 9-0 run to put the game away. Using your standard....you don't capture any of that.

Seems to me a tied game with 5 minutes left makes more sense because that is absolutely the time the pressure starts to mount and it captures more data....

[MASH Transit]

I do support it, thing is my support is what I see

If I asked you to give me an in depth scouting analysis of Derrick Rose's game, and requested a legitimate explanation for how his game is more potent than that of Love, Howard, or Wade, you'd make a fool of yourself.


not a stat sheet.

As I've asked before; why is it that every other superstar player has the stats to match the hype?


And its not exactly easy to share this when you don't watch Bulls basketball on a somewhat occasional basis.

I have league pass; satellite, broadband, and mobile. I also have a subscription to synergysports. If I so wished it, I could go back and watch every Bulls game, or more specifically, every single offensive possession Derrick Rose has played this season. In other words, I watch more Bulls basketball than you.

The Bulls win because they're an excellent rebounding and defensive team, not because Derrick Rose is a top 3 player leading a band of scrubs. Chicago has a system conducive of winning. A system that emphasizes ball movement, rebounding, defense, and limiting turnovers. They're a damned good coached team who've bought in and play hungry. It's no coincidence that Chicago remains consistent regardless of individual injuries in their rotations. Boozer goes out last season? They keep winning. Noah? They keep winning. Deng? They keep winning. Rose? They keep winning. Rip? They keep winning. It's also no a coincidence that, regardless of Rose's presence, the games the Bulls typically lose are that they're matched or out rebounded. Rose can be inefficient as all hell, and he often is, but Chicago is able to stay afloat due to smashing their opponents on the boards. Chicago is more in the mold of the Championship Pistons squad of last decade than one such as the Spurs, Dallas, Heat, or Lakers squads.

It's tough to argue that Rose is top 5, let alone top 3. Realistically, he's 6-10.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Wade
6. Love
7. Dirk
8. Rose
9. Westbrook
10. Parker

Honorable Mention: Aldridge, D. Williams, Nash

In all honesty, it's generous giving Rose the 8 spot considering he's missed 17 games. But he had a really good year last season, so I'll give him the spot on the merit of that.

[Tenchi Ryu]

As I've asked before; why is it that every other superstar player has the stats to match the hype?

Because those same other players don't run a system like Chicago. Like you said, this is a well built team that not only rebounds and defends well, but have learned to move the ball well. What this does is make Rose's stats drop, cause he doesn't have as such a load to do. And I've explained that using his FG% is unfair in his situation, cause the defensive pressure he receives is more suffocating compared to the Heat or Thunder big 3. On those teams, that's 3 legit scoring powerhouses, therefore the defense can't focus sole on one. Rose doesn't get this benefit, even WITH his teammates being better this year. He uses that to his advantage, and sets them up so where he can dish it out to them, and get them more involved.






I have league pass; satellite, broadband, and mobile. I also have a subscription to synergysports. If I so wished it, I could go back and watch every Bulls game, or more specifically, every single offensive possession Derrick Rose has played this season. In other words, I watch more Bulls basketball than you.
I have LP too, but only use it for Heat, Lakers, OKC, Spurs and Clippers, the teams I want to keep tabs on since they are the main competition come post season.


The Bulls win because they're an excellent rebounding and defensive team, not because Derrick Rose is a top 3 player leading a band of scrubs. Chicago has a system conducive of winning. A system that emphasizes ball movement, rebounding, defense, and limiting turnovers. They're a damned good coached team who've bought in and play hungry. It's no coincidence that Chicago remains consistent regardless of individual injuries in their rotations. Boozer goes out last season? They keep winning. Noah? They keep winning. Deng? They keep winning. Rose? They keep winning. Rip? They keep winning. It's also no a coincidence that, regardless of Rose's presence, the games the Bulls typically lose are that they're matched or out rebounded. Rose can be inefficient as all hell, and he often is, but Chicago is able to stay afloat due to smashing their opponents on the boards. Chicago is more in the mold of the Championship Pistons squad of last decade than one such as the Spurs, Dallas, Heat, or Lakers squads.
The Bulls win with all that, plus Rose's leadership. When I mentioned what Webber said about Rose being a leader on the sideline, you facepalmed, but its absolutely true. On a play where Boozer didn't put his hands up on his opponent and made a foul, right after Thibs was talking to him, the first person he looked at was Rose, and said he shouldn't have did that and apologized. That right there shows the amount of respect they have for him as their leader and floor general. Just cause he isn't playing doesn't mean he's not contributing.

The Bulls have constantly talked about how Rose is their captain, the one they want to follow. Yes Chicago has a system, but Rose is a significant part of it. Their Defense and rebounding keeps them in games, but it doesn't make them win all the time. Go back a watch the last 5 bulls game. Not one have we won comfortably, and was basically a close one. Go watch the game again tonight vs Nuggets. Its absolutely clear why Rose is needed, watch how stagnant the offense was on occasion, or how Lucas and Watson relied on too many jumpshots instead of feeding Boozer. This team without Rose is good, but lets not kid ourselves, they are 4th seed second-round exit at best without Rose.

Its those leadership qualities that I factor in. Hell, leadership qualities is why CP3 is so highly ranked as well. I keep mentioning on how Rose is now constantly compared to CP3, there is a reason for that. He's a smarter player, and that alone makes him better. And it significantly helps the team. Do yourself a favor, watch one of the games where Lucas was on fire. When sitting on the Bench, look who's the person you'd see him talking to from time to time getting tips.

True Bulls are 12-5 without him, but they are 28-6 with him. I have a hard time seeing this Rose-less team do that.

[iDefend5]

Tenchi Ryu , you are an idiot, and I don't mean you are an idiot for making that post, I mean you are an idiot for responding to MASH Transit/Joyner, the guy got banned on RealGM for a reason.