MJ Post Spin Moves (Video)

[Round Mound]

http://blogs.laopinioncoruna.es/producionspeludas/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/michael_jordan_87.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Lg0JJxRrU&feature=related

:bowdown:

[SourPatchKids]

:O

[CardiacKemba]

We often forget how quickly MJ could actually explode off the floor. Simply amazing.

[FKAri]

Now lets see him do that vs actual basketball players in today's game. lulz

[EnoughSaid]

Now lets see him do that vs actual basketball players in today's game. lulz

:biggums:

If old bum ass Kobe is putting up 28 points per game today, then prime MJ would average close to 40, and win the MVP, defensive player of the year, the scoring title and the Finals MVP. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[AlphaWolf24]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced

[gtfomyface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2sxK54iQQ

:bowdown:

[thelucifer69]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced

Name any average / good D1 SG could 30+ PPG in 5 consecutive season with 50+ FG%. No you can't.

[tommyhtc]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced
yep, even average joes on the streets can do it, I'm truly amazed by what evolution have done to humans.

[Go Getter]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced
Every average to good HS player can do those moves (to a degree), but can they do them on a consistent basis against NBA talent? No, they cannot.

Don't be stupid.

[Asukal]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced

At least you are consistently stupid. :cheers:

[rodman91]

That's how they won 6 rings without scoring big men. Jordan was Bulls' post player as well.

[Harison]

:bowdown:

[Quickening]

Watched first 3 moves, same crap, stopped watching.

[Da_Realist]

:bowdown: @ 3:38

[PTB Fan]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Glide2keva]

Yeah because Joe Dumars, Steve Smith, Gerald Wilkins, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Vinnie Johnson, Larry Nance weren't real basketball players.

:facepalm

[andgar923]

What some people fail to understand is that physically almost every player in the NBA can do most of that stuff true.... but not many can read the defense and react the way MJ did as consistently as he did.

There's been a number of times in which either Wade, Bron and Kobe are found in a similar situation but instead they get trapped. Wade holds the ball, Bron tries to pass and Kobe forces the turnaround. MJ not only sees the double coming, he reacts and finishes before the defense even reacts. Then there's other cases in which MJ simply explodes and the defense is left standing still. Now, to some that may not be that special, but then you have to consider the fact that the defense is focused on stopping that move (amongst many). The MJ defensive playbook usually contains a note that warns players from allowing him to spin baseline because he's dangerous when he does. So the entire defense knows about it and has worked at stopping it, yet he does it time and time again.

So sure, Kobe and others may do this from time to time, but never at the consistent level that MJ did. And Kobe never had the explosiveness that MJ did. Half the time the defenders couldn't react fast enough to foul him!

[bwink23]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced


Yeah, you see these moves all the time...:rolleyes:

[PJR]

Da GOAT MJ da gawd :bowdown:

[bwink23]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced


The first move on Kobe in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TImzuuahEGU

Old-ass Jordan burns young, athletic Kobe with the baseline spins move for the dunk. Kobe has an interview on Youtube about this play, saying he knew it was coming, but Jordan spun so quickly and hard he couldn't do anything to stop it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDA64rSFBgc


This is the video where he talks about the spin move Jordan put on him.
:pimp:

[livingby3's]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2sxK54iQQ

:bowdown:

amazing footwork :applause: and an amazing thanks to you for sharing an irrelevant video.

[DonDadda59]

The underrated and overlooked aspect of this video is not just the level of athleticism, explosiveness, etc displayed but also Jordan's extremely high bball IQ. Notice that in the first few clips there's a big man coming over to double/help Jordan's defender. MJ sensing this beats the double before it's even set by spinning away from it. He always did that- stayed one step ahead of the defense and never allowed them to trap him.

Players like Lebron and Kobe need to study videos like this, especially LBJ. Whenever that guy plays the better defenses in the league he always just hangs out at the top of the key, dribbling aimlessly and allows traps, doubles, etc to fluster him and that's why he's had some not so great series against good teams. Same with Kobe, only his shot selection due to his not so great IQ is his problem, even when he had the explosiveness to outsmart defenses he usually settled for downright stupid shots. He showed some progress from around 08 until this season where he's regressed terribly.

Lebron's teammate DWade is actually the best today at this aspect of the game. IMO he's better than any perimeter player out there now at beating doubles, reading defenses and it has shown when he flourished against the same defenses Kobe and Bron struggled mightily against.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The underrated and overlooked aspect of this video is not just the level of athleticism, explosiveness, etc displayed but also Jordan's extremely high bball IQ. Notice that in the first few clips there's a big man coming over to double/help Jordan's defender. MJ sensing this beats the double before it's even set by spinning away from it. He always did that- stayed one step ahead of the defense and never allowed them to trap him.

Players like Lebron and Kobe need to study videos like this, especially LBJ. Whenever that guy plays the better defenses in the league he always just hangs out at the top of the key, dribbling aimlessly and allows traps, doubles, etc to fluster him and that's why he's had some not so great series against good teams. Same with Kobe, only his shot selection due to his not so great IQ is his problem, even when he had the explosiveness to outsmart defenses he usually settled for downright stupid shots. He showed some progress from around 08 until this season where he's regressed terribly.

Lebron's teammate DWade is actually the best today at this aspect of the game. IMO he's better than any perimeter player out there now at beating doubles, reading defenses and it has shown when he flourished against the same defenses Kobe and Bron struggled mightily against.

I completely agree and have been saying this for years. Jordan's court awareness and basketball IQ are what truly set him apart from the Kobe's/Bron's of the world. Kobe fans always love to talk about "skill" and how Kobe "can do all the moves MJ could". That may be true (not entirely, but Kobe does in fact possess 95+% of the skills MJ did), but what they fail to realize is that a basketball game isn't the same thing as doing a move or series of fakes/moves alone in a gym. Your read of the defense and response time and the appropriateness of that response is MUCH more important than whether you are, in an ideal world, capable of making a certain move.

The main difference between Kobe and Jordan is not athleticism, or era - it's the fact that Jordan had a higher basketball IQ and far better court awareness (i.e., he saw plays developing more quickly than Kobe). Here's a former poster who is a Laker/Kobe fan explaining it from a topic years ago:


Look how when he gets the ball on the wing or post he doesnt wait around (like kobe), he makes his move immediately and the defender isnt prepared for it.


I think the difference is that jordan decides what he wants to do before he gets the ball, and then gets to the best spot and position to do it, and makes the move immediately afterward, putting the plan into execution. Kobe, which pisses me off, will get the ball, and then only START to decide what to do, whereas mj knew 5 seconds before he even got the rock. And what kobe decides he wants to do, once he gets the ball, he may not have the best position for, but will do it anyway. If something goes wrong with mj's plan, he changes it and does something else. Kobe? Nope, gotta shoot that jumper from that spot on the floor i like, even if there's 5 people there. There's plenty of **** that he pisses me off with. But why harp on it when there's freaking ****loads of people to do that for me already.

He wont learn and might never learn. Jordan makes the game as easy as possible for himself, and makes it look as easy as possible. Kobe looks like he tries to make it as HARD for himself as possible. Jordan looks like he's playing in rec games the way he weaves between everywhere and does whatever he wants. Kobe looks like he's playing in an NBA game. Which isnt bad, since thats what he's really doing. But its not Jordan.

[SwooshReturns]

picc84 was one of the greats, I miss the guy.

One of my favorite split second decision from Jordan in the post is in a playoff game v.s. Orlando in 1995.

MJ catches it near the rim on a cut, back to the basket, has an un-canny sense of two defenders sandwiching him from behind (Grant) a shot blocker, and 6'7 Penny Hardaway from the front.

Reacts in an instant with a great slight of hand, up and under move evading both defenders with what looks like ease.

:facepalm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOMXC9E9-Mw

3:18

Jesus christ that was a nice move. Basketball players know what I'm talking about here.

[macpierce]

I completely agree and have been saying this for years. Jordan's court awareness and basketball IQ are what truly set him apart from the Kobe's/Bron's of the world. Kobe fans always love to talk about "skill" and how Kobe "can do all the moves MJ could". That may be true (not entirely, but Kobe does in fact possess 95+% of the skills MJ did), but what they fail to realize is that a basketball game isn't the same thing as doing a move or series of fakes/moves alone in a gym. Your read of the defense and response time and the appropriateness of that response is MUCH more important than whether you are, in an ideal world, capable of making a certain move.

The main difference between Kobe and Jordan is not athleticism, or era - it's the fact that Jordan had a higher basketball IQ and far better court awareness (i.e., he saw plays developing more quickly than Kobe). Here's a former poster who is a Laker/Kobe fan explaining it from a topic years ago:

That's cute, im not sure why youre singling out kobe instead of wade/lebron.........Oh wait I remember now :sleeping

[eliteballer]

Lack of zone and less sophisticated defenses make things a lot easier to make "quick" decisions. How often is Kobe on an island with his defender like Jordan was?

[stallionaire]

now every average / good D1 SG can do those moves..

amazing how times have advanced

smh LMFAO :roll:

[SwooshReturns]

Lebron's teammate DWade is actually the best today at this aspect of the game. IMO he's better than any perimeter player out there now at beating doubles, reading defenses and it has shown when he flourished against the same defenses Kobe and Bron struggled mightily against.
Well that and he's just more explosive off the dribble, more versatility to his offensive game and keeps defenders on their toes. You know Kobe is in love with his jumper, so he's pulling up.

This is what enables Wade to be the best player against elite defenses in the NBA. He's by far and away the best. The stats even prove it.

From 2005 - 2010 LeBron, and Kobe statistically feasted on inferior competition. Wade sometimes played down to the competition, but ALWAYS raised his game against superior competition.

[SwooshReturns]

Lack of zone and less sophisticated defenses make things a lot easier to make "quick" decisions. How often is Kobe on an island with his defender like Jordan was?
Your Laker girl status knows no bounds, does it?

:oldlol:

We're talking about Jordan facing doubles and still reacting quicker.

You act like teams didn't try to zone up on MJ's drives, and send 2 or 3 defenders at him.

The players of the last decade aren't the first players to see waves of defenders thrown at them to try and stop them.

And the reason why teams usually had to throw a smaller quicker defender at Jordan, as opposed to the longer / slower of foot ones that bother Kobe and HIS tendancies (IE settling for jumpers), the smaller player had to try and negate MJ's biggest impact which was his dribble penetration.

MJ was just way too quick for anyone from 6'5 - 6'9 ... you had to put PG or Comob Guards on him to pray to stop him from beasting and getting into the lane.

[OldSchoolBBall]

picc84 was one of the greats, I miss the guy.

One of my favorite split second decision from Jordan in the post is in a playoff game v.s. Orlando in 1995.

MJ catches it near the rim on a cut, back to the basket, has an un-canny sense of two defenders sandwiching him from behind (Grant) a shot blocker, and 6'7 Penny Hardaway from the front.

Reacts in an instant with a great slight of hand, up and under move evading both defenders with what looks like ease.

:facepalm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOMXC9E9-Mw

3:18

Jesus christ that was a nice move. Basketball players know what I'm talking about here.

I knew the exact play you were talking about once you said '95 vs. Orlando before I even watched the video. :oldlol: That play has always been one of my favorites - just a LIGHTNING quick read of the defense and an intuitive sense of where defenders are and where they're coming from. The number of minor adjustments/moves/reads he makes on that play in the span of one second is unbelievable. No one else in history could make that play. Bird could read and react as quickly, but not move quickly enough. Like you said, you have to really play and understand the game to realize how special that play is, because he made it look so easy. That's anything BUT easy.

[DonDadda59]

Lack of zone and less sophisticated defenses make things a lot easier to make "quick" decisions. How often is Kobe on an island with his defender like Jordan was?

No one plays zone D in the NBA with the exception of a handful of plays every once in a blue moon by a few teams. No handchecking and 3 second defensive violations have made the NBA a VERY offensive perimeter player friendly game.

Where was the 'zone' and 'sophisticated defense' here when Wade did the same exact thing Jordan did in the OP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MDRN80t7Dk

Could it be that Dwayne has the athletic ability and isn't a complete retard like so many overrated players I can name?

Nah, must be the zone :oldlol:

Sit your dumb ass down. Go pick up 'basketball for dummies' at your local bookstore or library.

[juju151111]

No one plays zone D in the NBA with the exception of a handful of plays every once in a blue moon by a few teams. No handchecking and 3 second defensive violations have made the NBA a VERY offensive perimeter player friendly game.

Where was the 'zone' and 'sophisticated defense' here when Wade did the same exact thing Jordan did in the OP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MDRN80t7Dk

Could it be that Dwayne has the athletic ability and isn't a complete retard like so many overrated players I can name?

Nah, must be the zone :oldlol:

Sit your dumb ass down. Go pick up 'basketball for dummies' at your local bookstore or library.
Ether :biggums:

[eliteballer]

No one plays zone D in the NBA with the exception of a handful of plays every once in a blue moon by a few teams. No handchecking and 3 second defensive violations have made the NBA a VERY offensive perimeter player friendly game.

Where was the 'zone' and 'sophisticated defense' here when Wade did the same exact thing Jordan did in the OP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MDRN80t7Dk

Could it be that Dwayne has the athletic ability and isn't a complete retard like so many overrated players I can name?

Nah, must be the zone :oldlol:

Sit your dumb ass down. Go pick up 'basketball for dummies' at your local bookstore or library.

It's not just zone. Teams can throw any amount of defenders at any one player at any given time, or spot on the floor. Do you understand how that changes things? You cant just isolate and breakdown a player at will.

[SwooshReturns]

It's not just zone. Teams can throw any amount of defenders at any one player at any given time, or spot on the floor. Do you understand how that changes things? You cant just isolate and breakdown a player at will.
:facepalm

[Nevaeh]

It's not just zone. Teams can throw any amount of defenders at any one player at any given time, or spot on the floor. Do you understand how that changes things? You cant just isolate and breakdown a player at will.

All the more reason NOT to take the dumbass shots that usually end up missing the mark anyway. "Hmmm, I'm being draped by multiple defenders, and I'm not quick enough to blow by any of them. Let me launch a shot that my Stans will somehow justify as being good, or :bowdown: worthy".

[DonDadda59]

It's not just zone. Teams can throw any amount of defenders at any one player at any given time, or spot on the floor. Do you understand how that changes things? You cant just isolate and breakdown a player at will.

Do you even watch NBA basketball? :oldlol:

Like I told you before- pick a nice spot in a nice warm corner somewhere and sit your dumb ass down. Curl up with a nice copy of 'Basketball for Dummies' and maybe you'll learn something.

[eliteballer]

No, ISHiot:facepalm If a primary scorer gets the ball on the wing the opposing team can send two guys to cut off the paint before he even starts his dribble. OR shade and doubleteam before they even get position or the ball. It makes things INFINITELY more difficult.

Hilarious that you come with insults after I slap you down when mentioning no illegal defense

[SwooshReturns]

If a primary scorer gets the ball on the wing the opposing team can send two guys to cut off the paint before he even starts his dribble. OR shade and doubleteam before they even get position or the ball.
That has been happening in the NBA very a long time. It's nothing new.

[eliteballer]

Apparently you havent heard of illegal defense:roll:

[DonDadda59]

No, ISHiot:facepalm If a primary scorer gets the ball on the wing the opposing team can send two guys to cut off the paint before he even starts his dribble.

Professor Dwyane Wade on how to beat the 'sophisticated' never before seen double team sent at a perimeter player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrweKfFFIs

Amazing how far a little athleticism and bball IQ can take you :oldlol:


OR shade and doubleteam before they even get position or the ball. It makes things INFINITELY more difficult.

Oh lawd, however would you defeat a team that immediately doubles a player (thus leaving a man wide open) before he even has the ball? :confusedshrug:

Like I keep trying to tell you, invest in this:

http://images.bookcloseouts.com/covers/large/isbn978076/9780764552489-l.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

It makes things INFINITELY more difficult.


LMAO @ this clown. :oldlol:

Kobe Bryant: not nearly as good as Jordan pre-zone, and not nearly as good since.

[eliteballer]

Right, because Wade shoots in the mid 50's like 80s stars:roll:

Illegal defense, looks like YOU need bball for dummies:lol

[IGOTGAME]

Apparently you havent heard of illegal defense:roll:

most people do not understand the illegal defense rules. it is one of the most commonly misunderstood things about bball on the internet.

the reason scoring was up for perimeter players was the handchecking...not so much the illegal defense rules.

[eliteballer]

Please educate us on the differences back then between illegal and non illegal defense(nothing is illegal now per rule changes) don dadda:roll:

[eliteballer]

You have 5 minutes to consult your book and the net:roll:

[eliteballer]

Eh, I'll explain.

ZONE is when each player is assigned a portion of the floor to cover, he doesnt have to guard a man.

ILLEGAL defense is when you dont stick closely to a man under strict man to man defense rules. Illegal is when you can cover anyone, at anytime, at any spot on the floor WITH OR WITHOUT the ball, even IF your guarding a player as part of man to man and not a portion of the floor. Illegal defense DOESNT exist now.

So you're trying to tell us RESTRICTING what teams can do defensively back in the day made it harder or the same difficulty for Jordan to score?:roll:

[eliteballer]

f*cking clown:pimp:

[DonDadda59]

Right, because Wade shoots in the mid 50's like 80s stars:roll:

Illegal defense, looks like YOU need bball for dummies:lol

But he (along with Lebron and Durant) are shooting in the 50s while your boy is closer to 40%. I guess only one player in the league sees all this advanced, sophisticated defenses and the rest of them only see watered down one-on-one isolation D, right? :oldlol:

And as far as illegal defenses go, teams ROUTINELY employed them in their schemes and it became difficult for refs to enforce or even differentiate between illegal and non illegal defense, which was the catalyst for the rule change in the first place.

[PJR]

Someone tell this Kobrick Stan to stay in his lane...

No one touching is MJ da gawd aka da GOAT. Most efficient perimeter scorer ever. :bowdown:

Look at them first three peat playoff numbers. Video game stats :bowdown:

[eliteballer]

But he (along with Lebron and Durant) are shooting in the 50s while your boy is closer to 40%. I guess only one player in the league sees all this advanced, sophisticated defenses and the rest of them only see watered down one-on-one isolation D, right? :oldlol:

And as far as illegal defenses go, teams ROUTINELY employed them in their schemes and it became difficult for refs to enforce or even differentiate between illegal and non illegal defense, which was the catalyst for the rule change in the first place.

Lebron's percentages are steadily dropping in this mess of a season and durant isnt shooting in the 50's.

Please provide documentation in the form of articles or nba officials discussing rule change reasoning:rolleyes: , even ignoring the fact that early 00s defense>>>>80's where it was strict man instead of pulling garbage out of your ass:roll:

[truhooper]

:bowdown:

[bwink23]

Eh, I'll explain.

ZONE is when each player is assigned a portion of the floor to cover, he doesnt have to guard a man.

ILLEGAL defense is when you dont stick closely to a man under strict man to man defense rules. Illegal is when you can cover anyone, at anytime, at any spot on the floor WITH OR WITHOUT the ball, even IF your guarding a player as part of man to man and not a portion of the floor. Illegal defense DOESNT exist now.

So you're trying to tell us RESTRICTING what teams can do defensively back in the day made it harder or the same difficulty for Jordan to score?:roll:


Don't they restrict the amount of physical contact on the perimeter and the clogging of the lanes???

[eliteballer]

Don't they restrict the amount of physical contact on the perimeter and the clogging of the lanes???

If you think they were more physical on the perimter in the 80s then now I dont know what to tell you:roll:

The mentality then was "outscore your opponent". Since the mid 90's its been "stop your opponent"

[PJR]

First three peat Jordan would avg 40-6-6 2 steals/2 blocks on 54% shooting in today's league. DPOY level on ball defense too. :bowdown:

[bwink23]

Lebron's percentages are steadily dropping in this mess of a season and durant isnt shooting in the 50's.

Please provide documentation in the form of articles or nba officials discussing rule change reasoning:rolleyes: , even ignoring the fact that early 00s defense>>>>80's where it was strict man instead of pulling garbage out of your ass:roll:


Durant from 2-point land = 54.3%FG
Durant from 3-point land = 37.5%FG


ANY QUESTIONS?

[eliteballer]

You know why players are bigger and more muscular now?

Hint: Its not because the game is softer

[eliteballer]

Durant from 2-point land = 54.3%FG
Durant from 3-point land = 37.5%FG


ANY QUESTIONS?

Durant FG%: 49

Why should we ignore certain shots he takes?:roll: That all factors into the looks you get, how tough it is to penetrate etc.

[DonDadda59]

Please provide documentation in the form of articles or nba officials discussing rule change reasoning:rolleyes: , even ignoring the fact that early 00s defense>>>>80's where it was strict man instead of pulling garbage out of your ass:roll:

Done.


LA QUINTA, Calif. -- Responding to the proliferation of all-out zone defenses being implemented as the 1988-89 season unfolded, the Competition Committee of the National Basketball Association has, for the umpteenth time, attempted to address the matter at the league meetings.

"We received a great many complaints, especially over the last third of the season," said league vice president of operations Rod Thorn.

-'NBA TARGETS ZONE DEFENSE', Boston Globe
9/18/89

Let me know if you want more. Usually a bad idea to bring talking points from a homer video that has been debunked and discredited for years to a debate like this.

But if you want to play, let's play :oldlol:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pNTCqT5v0S0/Tl9QGt8ra9I/AAAAAAAAA80/I9q--RM0mBc/s1600/say+hello+to+my+little+friend.jpg

[bwink23]

If you think they were more physical on the perimter in the 80s then now I dont know what to tell you:roll:

The mentality then was "outscore your opponent". Since the mid 90's its been "stop your opponent"


Durant CAREER is a 49.5%FG inside the arc.

After his rookie year, he's been 50.6%FG inside the arc....

Stop overrating today's defenses....:rolleyes:

[bwink23]

Durant FG%: 49

Why should we ignore certain shots he takes?:roll: That all factors into the looks you get, how tough it is to penetrate etc.


I didn't ignore ANY shot......:facepalm

I showed you how he shoots from the 3-point line, and how he shoots inside the 3-point line...that covers everything.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Run eliteballer...run!!! :oldlol:

[juju151111]

You know why players are bigger and more muscular now?

Hint: Its not because the game is softer
U mean illegal D like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&context=C4752e5dADvjVQa1PpcFPGt_Opy0o_-CWHiSf3EkZJYm5sfOMZv0w= and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&context=C49ef684ADvjVQa1PpcFPGt_Opy0o_-GSGykZTo14-pYiZhFMsNRA=
:coleman:

[bwink23]

You know why players are bigger and more muscular now?

Hint: Its not because the game is softer


Since when did you have to be bigger and more muscular to have success on the perimeter?? :confusedshrug:

Allen Iverson, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobli...JJ Barea tore into the Lakers last year..

As far as athleticism goes, speed is a far greater commodity in today's game than size. :no:

[DonDadda59]

Run eliteballer...run!!! :oldlol:

I don't think he's coming back :(

[swi7ch]

can anyone seriously say that today's small, soft, and weak-a$$ 2 guards can match up against Jordan? in today's game, jordan would be a PF like Bass or big baby. add quickness, athleticism, highest bball iq of all time and we're looking at at least 40 ppg... in a half.

[eliteballer]

Done.


LA QUINTA, Calif. -- Responding to the proliferation of all-out zone defenses being implemented as the 1988-89 season unfolded, the Competition Committee of the National Basketball Association has, for the umpteenth time, attempted to address the matter at the league meetings.

"We received a great many complaints, especially over the last third of the season," said league vice president of operations Rod Thorn.

-'NBA TARGETS ZONE DEFENSE', Boston Globe
9/18/89

Let me know if you want more. Usually a bad idea to bring talking points from a homer video that has been debunked and discredited for years to a debate like this.

But if you want to play, let's play :oldlol:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pNTCqT5v0S0/Tl9QGt8ra9I/AAAAAAAAA80/I9q--RM0mBc/s1600/say+hello+to+my+little+friend.jpg

Uhh...you know ALL that means is that they focused on CUTTING DOWN illegal D...since OFFICIAL abolition didnt come until the mid 00's...:roll:

[eliteballer]

:roll:

I leave for 10 minutes and you shoot yourself in the gotdamned foot

[STATUTORY]

can anyone seriously say that today's small, soft, and weak-a$$ 2 guards can match up against Jordan? in today's game, jordan would be a PF like Bass or big baby. add quickness, athleticism, highest bball iq of all time and we're looking at at least 40 ppg... in a half.

what about guys like Tayshaun Prince, Battier, Marion, artest etc. there's a lot more guys with size and quickness to stop post up guards in the paint now

MJ was posting up a PG in those videos

[kileer7]

Excellent video.

[eliteballer]

Uhh...you know ALL that means is that they focused on CUTTING DOWN illegal D...since OFFICIAL ABOLITION didnt come until the mid 00's...:roll:


I hit your damn machine gun with a hydrogen bomb.....:pimp: :roll:

[eliteballer]

"I told you not to f*ck me dada, dont you ever f*ck me you got damn little jordan groupie":roll:

[bwink23]

what about guys like Tayshaun Prince, Battier, Marion, artest etc. there's a lot more guys with size and quickness to stop post up guards in the paint now

MJ was posting up a PG in those videos


Jordan has posted up everybody and everyone.....there is no one who could stop Jordan in the post. All you can do is hope he misses..

He was abusing 2000's power forwards with the Wizards has an old man who couldn't jump anymore...:rolleyes:

[bwink23]

"I told you not to f*ck me dada, dont you ever f*ck me you got damn little jordan groupie":roll:


Actually, that post shows how ineffective the league had been with the zone defenses....hence the concerns with needing to TRY and address it....:rolleyes:


And today, you don't even have a true zone....you CAN'T play a true zone in today's NBA....the league would NEVER allow it....:no:

[STATUTORY]

Jordan has posted up everybody and everyone.....there is no one who could stop Jordan in the post. All you can do is hope he misses..

He was abusing 2000's power forwards with the Wizards has an old man who couldn't jump anymore...:rolleyes:

.469 and .491 TS% is abusing now? :oldlol:

[IGOTGAME]

I don't think he's coming back :(

you still haven't explained the differences between the illegal defense and 3 second violation nor how it has effected the game in a vacumn....sorry but i'd like to hear your take not some quite that may or may not be relevant.

[bwink23]

.469 and .491 TS% is abusing now? :oldlol:

In the post, yeah he was.....:rolleyes:


Remember, he shot BETTER from midrange than Kobe in 2002 and 2003 (16-23ft) on comparable shot attempts.

Just to give you a gauge to go by.

[bwink23]

what about guys like Tayshaun Prince, Battier, Marion, artest etc. there's a lot more guys with size and quickness to stop post up guards in the paint now

MJ was posting up a PG in those videos


Jordan from 10-15 ft shooting:

2002 = 41.9%FG
2003 = 43.9%FG

43%FG combined the 2 years.

Kobe from 10-15 ft shooting:

2002 = 44.3%FG
2003 = 37.3%FG

40.8%FG combined the 2 years.



ANY QUESTIONS???

[eliteballer]

Where are you dada? You said as soon as teams starting playing any semblance of Zone(my mistake, NO mention of them playing illegal D though:oldlol: ), opposing teams PROMPTLY complained, and the NBA PROMPTLY clamped down.

So we have NO zone, or any illegal D being played(remember, they are two different things kid) for a significant period of time.

Good to know. Helps your argument:roll:

[DonDadda59]

I hit your damn machine gun with a hydrogen bomb.....:pimp: :roll:

You did no such thing, sir :oldlol:

You asked me to show you an article and I did. It was one wherein the NBA rules committee for the 'umpteenth time' tried to address the 'outright proliferation' of zone/illegal defenses in the NBA... in 1988-89.

Like I said earlier, teams ROUTINELY ran zones/illegal defenses and the refs either didn't know how or just plain ignored enforcing the rule.

And like I said earlier, if you want more... just let me know :D


you still haven't explained the differences between the illegal defense and 3 second violation nor how it has effected the game in a vacumn....sorry but i'd like to hear your take not some quite that may or may not be relevant.

Explain what you mean by 'the game in a vacumn' and I'll gladly give you my thoughts on the matter.

[juju151111]

Where are you dada? You said as soon as teams starting playing any semblance of Zone(my mistake, NO mention of them playing illegal D though:oldlol: ), opposing teams PROMPTLY complained, and the NBA PROMPTLY clamped down.

So we have NO zone, or any illegal D being played(remember, they are two different things kid) for a significant period of time.

Good to know. Helps your argument:roll:
You still haven't explain to me wats happen in these vids http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&context=C4752e5dADvjVQa1PpcFPGt_Opy0o_-CWHiSf3EkZJYm5sfOMZv0w= and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&context=C49ef684ADvjVQa1PpcFPGt_Opy0o_-GSGykZTo14-pYiZhFMsNRA=
I thought it was that it was illegal? Why Mj still dropping bucket?

[DonDadda59]

Where are you dada? You said as soon as teams starting playing any semblance of Zone(my mistake, NO mention of them playing illegal D though:oldlol: ), opposing teams PROMPTLY complained, and the NBA PROMPTLY clamped down.

So we have NO zone, or any illegal D being played(remember, they are two different things kid) for a significant period of time.

Good to know. Helps your argument:roll:

For the record, with the 3 sec violation... there's no such thing as zone in the NBA (for longer than 3 sec obviously). Not that it matters, since no team plays zone for a handful of possessions. And teams did in fact, blatantly employ zone and illegal D schemes from the 80s on.

Just because there were complaints levied, doesn't mean they were stopped. Much like flopping in the league today, plenty of complaints and even some efforts by the league to curb certain behavior... to no avail.

[eliteballer]

Where are you dada? You said as soon as teams starting playing any semblance of Zone(my mistake, NO mention of them playing illegal D though:oldlol: ), opposing teams PROMPTLY complained, and the NBA PROMPTLY clamped down.

So we have NO zone, or any illegal D being played(remember, they are two different things kid) for a significant period of time.

Good to know. Helps your argument:roll:


So instead if listening to official documentation YOU provided....we'll just take your word that it was played:roll:

[bwink23]

So instead if listening to official documentation YOU provided....we'll just take your word that it was played:roll:


Do you have a point?? The question here isn't whether the illegal defensive rules existed, it's whether they were ENFORCED to the degree in which they were written...

And that's a big fat NO.

[eliteballer]

Do you have a point?? The question here isn't whether the illegal defensive rules existed, it's whether they were ENFORCED to the degree in which they were written...

And that's a big fat NO.


Obviously not...since the NBA itself said it cracked down...per Dada:roll:

[STATUTORY]

Jordan from 10-15 ft shooting:

2002 = 41.9%FG
2003 = 43.9%FG

43%FG combined the 2 years.

Kobe from 10-15 ft shooting:

2002 = 44.3%FG
2003 = 37.3%FG

40.8%FG combined the 2 years.



ANY QUESTIONS???

:facepalm Frobe wasn't a post jumpshot player

Frobe was dunking on fools that MJ was trying to fadeaway over while getting his shit blocked

[bwink23]

:facepalm Frobe wasn't a post jumpshot player

Frobe was dunking on fools that MJ was trying to fadeaway over while getting his shit blocked


Yet, while Jordan was getting his "shit blocked", he posted better shooting %'s from 10-15 FT.....:rolleyes:

:hammerhead:

[DonDadda59]

So instead if listening to official documentation YOU provided....we'll just take your word that it was played:roll:

So... I take it that means you want more :D

[INDENT]'Anyway, the assumption that zone defenses are not played in the NBA is false. The rules allow for full-court zone pressure, and because defenses are permitted to aggressively double-team the ball anywhere on the floor, teams play de facto zones in the frontcourt, top. To one degree or another, every NBA team uses some type of zone. Throw in the added pressure of "staying legal"

[eliteballer]

B] The rules allow for full-court zone pressure, and because defenses are permitted to aggressively double-team the ball anywhere on the floor, teams play de facto zones in the frontcourt, top. To one degree or another, every NBA team uses some type of zone. Throw in the added pressure of "staying legal"—i.e., not violating the defensive guidelines

So you dont have to play man to man when a guy is bringing the ball up the court or on a fast break...a revelation!, and you still have "stay legal" in most situations:lol


[INDENT]''My concerns are that more teams are going to the trap,'' said [Chuck] Daly, ''which ultimately ends in a zone defense for a period of seconds,

Not for a period of seconds!!!:biggums: If only it were like now..where illegal D and zone can be played whenever and however long you want:roll:

So after all that...what we've learned is anything they could do back then, they can do now...and MORE:roll:

Still no mention of illegal D(its not the same as zones)....

[eliteballer]

Eh, I'll explain.

ZONE is when each player is assigned a portion of the floor to cover, he doesnt have to guard a man.

ILLEGAL defense is when you dont stick closely to a man under strict man to man defense rules. Illegal is when you can cover anyone, at anytime, at any spot on the floor WITH OR WITHOUT the ball, even IF your guarding a player as part of man to man and not a portion of the floor. Illegal defense DOESNT exist now.

So you're trying to tell us RESTRICTING what teams can do defensively back in the day made it harder or the same difficulty for Jordan to score?:roll:


Memorize it skippy:pimp:

[DonDadda59]

Not for a period of seconds!!!:biggums: If only it were like now..where illegal D and zone can be played whenever and however long you want:roll:

Yeah, only if weren't for the 3 sec violation... so you can only play 'zone' for a period of seconds. Ironic, ain't it? :oldlol:


So after all that...what we've learned is anything they could do back then, they can do now...and MORE:roll:

Yeah... except you can't physically impede perimeters progress in any way and you can't stay in the paint for more than 3 seconds. Might as well just roll out a red carpet for the Lebron Jameses and Wades of the world to take it to the basket (and they basically do).

Yeah, all that and more indeed.

[bwink23]

Memorize it skippy:pimp:


Man...these fake zones are so incredible, the smaller, quicker guards are wreaking havoc in the lanes, grabbing MVP's, Finals MVP's and scoring titles.....:lol

[juju151111]

So you dont have to play man to man when a guy is bringing the ball up the court or on a fast break...a revelation!, and you still have "stay legal" in most situations:lol



Not for a period of seconds!!!:biggums: If only it were like now..where illegal D and zone can be played whenever and however long you want:roll:

So after all that...what we've learned is anything they could do back then, they can do now...and MORE:roll:

Still no mention of illegal D(its not the same as zones)....
What are they playing in the vids I posted?

[eliteballer]

you can play faux zones with the 3 second paint. Daly was mentioning seconds because refs would catch it if it went beyond a couple seconds.


Eh, I'll explain.

ZONE is when each player is assigned a portion of the floor to cover, he doesnt have to guard a man.

ILLEGAL defense is when you dont stick closely to a man under strict man to man defense rules. Illegal is when you can cover anyone, at anytime, at any spot on the floor WITH OR WITHOUT the ball, even IF your guarding a player as part of man to man and not a portion of the floor. Illegal defense DOESNT exist now.

So you're trying to tell us RESTRICTING what teams can do defensively back in the day made it harder or the same difficulty for Jordan to score?

Study the difference, skippy:pimp:

[bwink23]

you can play faux zones with the 3 second paint. Daly was mentioning seconds because refs would catch it if it went beyond a couple seconds.



Study the difference, skippy:pimp:


How about you WATCH THE GAMES to see how much actual fake zones are played....90% of the time it's man-to-man defense with helpside rotations....no different from back then....:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

you can play faux zones with the 3 second paint. Daly was mentioning seconds because refs would catch it if it went beyond a couple seconds.

The f*ck is a 'faux zone'? Either you're playing a zone or you're not. The zones that teams played before the 3 sec violation rule, despite their illegality, were true zones because they weren't restricted by any paint time limit.

Again, not that any of this matters because no one today plays the zone for more than a few possessions here and there, if at all. Plus, the zone is not some super unbeatable defense. It's a cop out used by high school and college coaches to hide bad defenders and deal with matchup issues. Any player or coach at the NBA level was taught how to beat zone defenses when they were in grade school.


Study the difference, skippy:pimp:

There's plenty of video evidence of in game situations where Jordan is blatantly doubled without the ball without the refs blowing the whistle for illegal defense violations.

Educate yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

Perimeter players in Jordan's time had to deal with all the defensive schemes that players see today WITH the added problem of handchecking/more physical play and no welcome mats to the basket with 3 second violations.

[juju151111]

you can play faux zones with the 3 second paint. Daly was mentioning seconds because refs would catch it if it went beyond a couple seconds.



Study the difference, skippy:pimp:
Which top 5 defensive team play Zone more then man to man with traps or double. Name 1

[Asukal]

Zone D is sooooo effective every team uses it now. :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Zone D is sooooo effective every team uses it now. :rolleyes:
This is wat I am confused about. Elite is talking like teams use it today 80% of the time when they rarly ever use it. Top defensive coaches throughout history Tom,Phil,Larry Brown etc.... don't use it alot.

[veilside23]

Alot of people got owned by MJ's moves.. while a couple of clowns got served :D in this thread.

[IGOTGAME]

Man...these fake zones are so incredible, the smaller, quicker guards are wreaking havoc in the lanes, grabbing MVP's, Finals MVP's and scoring titles.....:lol

is this because of the fake zones or the handchecking? I believe the zones make it harder to score in a vacumn; but the lack handchecking makes it overall easier to score.


Zone D is sooooo effective every team uses it now.

every team uses defenses that would be illegal under the old "illegal defense" rules.

[juju151111]

is this because of the fake zones or the handchecking? I believe the zones make it harder to score in a vacumn; but the lack handchecking makes it overall easier to score.



every team uses defenses that would be illegal under the old "illegal defense" rules.
They used Zones back then too with handchecking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

[SyRyanYang]

no disrespect but the defenders were slow as hell

[OldSchoolBBall]

no disrespect but the defenders were slow as hell

Jordan made them LOOK slow. Dumars, Starks, Wilkins, and Payton are some of the quickest defenders ever at their sizes.

[bwink23]

no disrespect but the defenders were slow as hell


No disrespect, but your slow in the head....:rolleyes:

[IGOTGAME]

They used Zones back then too with handchecking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

they tried to at time...nothing as egregious as now. but it was illegal and it was called most of the time. anything like what is done today would NEVER be allowed.

[gengiskhan]

no disrespect but the defenders were slow as hell

They are still faster than Kobe's defense. look closely. Kobe stands around & his feet dont move at all on defense.

[Round Mound]

I find it funny to hear todays Kidds say that the game has evolved to more athletic players. Thats crap.

Any 7`4 Player as Athletic as CF 80s Ralph Sampson?

Jordan..Any SG that Combineds Skills, Fundamentals, Strength, Power, Potence, Speed, Quickness, Agility like he did? 80s-90s Player

Any 6`4/5 Player that was as Strong as Charles Barkley was? 80s-90s Player

Any Center Today as Skilled, Craffty, Agil, Quick as 80s-90s Hakeem?

Any 6`9er as Fast as Karl Malone on the Break to Recieve a Pass? 80s-90s Player

Etc...i could go on.

Today`s athleates have nothing on the Oldschool Brand of Basketball but 3-Point Shooting. Thats it

Won`t even go on the Penetrators part because the Rules of Today Favor Those unlike the 80s-90s.

Greets

[andgar923]

Kobe fans are the stupidest people on earth.

[eliteballer]

Kobe fans are the stupidest people on earth.

Coming from the guy who said he'd take Rik Smits over Dwight:roll: