Were Jordan's point totals inflated ??

[bwink23]

Game pace of his Chicago Bulls (87-93)

1987 - 95.8, 37.1 ppg (game pace rank = 23rd LAST)
1988 - 95.5, 35.0 ppg ( 23rd = LAST)
1989 - 97.0, 32.5 ppg (23rd out of 25 teams)
1990 - 96.7, 33.6 ppg (17th out of 27 teams)
1991 - 95.6, 31.5 ppg (19th out of 27 teams)
1992 - 94.4, 30.1 ppg (22nd out of 27 teams)
1993 - 92.5, 32.6 ppg (27th = LAST)

Average game pace of Bulls 87-93 = 95.4
Average game pace from 05 - 11 = 91.7

Do you think that the incredible disparity of 3-4 possessions a game can keep Michael Air Jeffrey Jordan from topping 30 points a game, which so routinely did in his era of ultra-fast paced, sprinting up and down the floor style of basketball??

:coleman:

[305Baller]

Game pace of his Chicago Bulls (87-93)

1987 - 95.8, 37.1 ppg (game pace rank = 23rd LAST)
1988 - 95.5, 35.0 ppg ( 23rd = LAST)
1989 - 97.0, 32.5 ppg (23rd out of 25 teams)
1990 - 96.7, 33.6 ppg (17th out of 27 teams)
1991 - 95.6, 31.5 ppg (19th out of 27 teams)
1992 - 94.4, 30.1 ppg (22nd out of 27 teams)
1993 - 92.5, 32.6 ppg (27th = LAST)

Average game pace of Bulls 87-93 = 95.4
Average game pace from 05 - 11 = 91.7

Do you think that the incredible disparity of 3-4 possessions a game can keep Michael Air Jeffrey Jordan from topping 30 points a game, which so routinely did in his era of ultra-fast paced, sprinting up and down the floor style of basketball??


:biggums:

[SAKOTXA]

Do you talk about anybody besides Kobe and MJ?

[miller-time]

whatever makes kobe more comparable to him...

http://youtu.be/ZidUzpou4kI?t=3m51s

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

OK, somebody go ahead and instigate the inevitable: make this about Kobe vs. MJ.

[Psileas]

Game pace of his Chicago Bulls (87-93)

1987 - 95.8, 37.1 ppg (game pace rank = 23rd LAST)
1988 - 95.5, 35.0 ppg ( 23rd = LAST)
1989 - 97.0, 32.5 ppg (23rd out of 25 teams)
1990 - 96.7, 33.6 ppg (17th out of 27 teams)
1991 - 95.6, 31.5 ppg (19th out of 27 teams)
1992 - 94.4, 30.1 ppg (22nd out of 27 teams)
1993 - 92.5, 32.6 ppg (27th = LAST)

Average game pace of Bulls 87-93 = 95.4
Average game pace from 05 - 11 = 91.7

Do you think that the incredible disparity of 3-4 possessions a game can keep Michael Air Jeffrey Jordan from topping 30 points a game, which so routinely did in his era of ultra-fast paced, sprinting up and down the floor style of basketball??

:coleman:

Seems like you forgot something:

Average game pace from 87 to 93 = 98.6

Which means that, analogically, the '87-'93 Bulls playing in '05 to '11 would play at a pace of about 88.7. That's close to 7 possessions per game, not 3-4.

[gengiskhan]

Michael Jordan's scoring averages are actually DEFLATED due to anti-perimeter scoring rules!

Michael jordan actual average under 2000-present "perimeter friendly" rules.

total 30.1ppg +5-6 ppg = 35.5-36.5 ppg

1987: 37.1 + 6 ppg = 43.1 ppg
1988: 35 + 6 ppg = 41 ppg
1989: 32.5 + 5 ppg = 37.5 ppg
1990: 33.5 + 5-6 ppg = 38.5-39 ppg

etc etc etc.

Who is gonna stop MJ from dunking every 2nd FG when:

-NO big men camping under the basket.
-NO handcheck rules.
-Touch fouls to send MJ to the FT line (MJ shots over 85% FT easily)
-Less energy sapping offensive oriented game. suits MJ perimeter game perfectly.

I wouldnt be surprise if MJ goes all out offensively in one season to score 44-45 PPG for all 82 games.

Playoffs: I believe MJ will ave 38-40 ppgs easily just to win 8-9 Rings easily.

nobody stopping him.

for 9 NBA Finals. MJ ave 41-42 ppgs as his 1993 NBA finals average.

9-0 in NBA Finals with 9 rings.

also, I see MJ quitting after playing 10 full seasons just for being way too good for the league. then we'll see dunkin, Shaq win 1 each as they age.

Kobe will make 1 NBA finals. loose it. will always be remembered as 2nd best who was born in the wrong era. :coleman:

[bwink23]

Seems like you forgot something:

Average game pace from 87 to 93 = 98.6

Which means that, analogically, the '87-'93 Bulls playing in '05 to '11 would play at a pace of about 88.7. That's close to 7 possessions per game, not 3-4.


Analogically, the Bulls would be playing at a slightly higher game pace if playing today....:rolleyes: ...Analogically, analogicalism has no logicalism when comparing game pace in 2 different eras....teams don't all play at the same game pace....

Analogically, your saying it's not possible for the Bulls to play at a 95.4 game pace in the 2000's...just looking at the 2008 season, these teams would disagree with you:

Nuggets, Warriors, Pacers, Suns, Sonics, Lakers, Grizzlies.....all played at 95.3 game pace or better.

So analogically, your logicalism is FLAWED....:D

[SlayerEnraged]

Analogically, the Bulls would be playing at a slightly higher game pace if playing today....:rolleyes: ...Analogically, analogicalism has no logicalism when comparing game pace in 2 different eras....teams don't all play at the same game pace....

Analogically, your saying it's not possible for the Bulls to play at a 95.4 game pace in the 2000's...just looking at the 2008 season, these teams would disagree with you:

Nuggets, Warriors, Pacers, Suns, Sonics, Lakers, Grizzlies.....all played at 95.3 game pace or better.

So analogically, your logicalism is FLAWED....:D

The part that you're not taking into account is that fact that although the bulls weren't playing a fast pace game, there opponents were. When u play a high paced game, there's usually a lot of turnovers involved and that leads to open fast breaks. Scottie in a interview somewhere on youtube said he and Mj purposely tried getting lots of steals for each other to get fast break opportunities. And then there's the obvious about who'd be guarding him...No more 6 '3 190 Lb Joe Dumars...There'd be players that are bigger and stronger which are as fast or faster than the 90's defenders but i'm sure Jordan could average 40ppg on 55% shooting if he only played left handed in the no hand check era according to you :D.

[bwink23]

The part that you're not taking into account is that fact that although the bulls weren't playing a fast pace game, there opponents were. When u play a high paced game, there's usually a lot of turnovers involved and that leads to open fast breaks. Scottie in a interview somewhere on youtube said he and Mj purposely tried getting lots of steals for each other to get fast break opportunities. And then there's the obvious about who'd be guarding him...No more 6 '3 190 Lb Joe Dumars...There'd be players that are bigger and stronger which are as fast or faster than the 90's defenders but i'm sure Jordan could average 40ppg on 55% shooting if he only played left handed in the no hand check era according to you :D.


The same opponents Jordan dumped 50 points, and 7 40+ point games on as a broke old man??? :D

the same ones that saw Jordan shoot BETTER than Kobe from not only 16-23ft, but also 10-15ft over his time with the Wizards?? :D


Those guys??

[bwink23]

The part that you're not taking into account is that fact that although the bulls weren't playing a fast pace game, there opponents were. When u play a high paced game, there's usually a lot of turnovers involved and that leads to open fast breaks. Scottie in a interview somewhere on youtube said he and Mj purposely tried getting lots of steals for each other to get fast break opportunities. And then there's the obvious about who'd be guarding him...No more 6 '3 190 Lb Joe Dumars...There'd be players that are bigger and stronger which are as fast or faster than the 90's defenders but i'm sure Jordan could average 40ppg on 55% shooting if he only played left handed in the no hand check era according to you :D.



All the gambling from steals?? You implying Jordan got all those steals solely from gambling??

The same Jordan who averaged the same amount of steals as a broke-ass old, out of shape, shell of his former self....as many as Kobe has averaged over his last 4 years?? LOL!!

Jordan in 2003 = 1.5 steals a game.

That's as good or better than 8 years of Kobe's average steals since 1999, :D .


EXCUSES MUCH???

[SlayerEnraged]

All the gambling from steals?? You implying Jordan got all those steals solely from gambling??

The same Jordan who averaged the same amount of steals as a broke-ass old, out of shape, shell of his former self....as many as Kobe has averaged over his last 4 years?? LOL!!

Jordan in 2003 = 1.5 steals a game.

That's as good or better than 8 years of Kobe's average steals since 1999, :D .


EXCUSES MUCH???

I never said he was gambling. Thats his playing style. Kobe's a man to man defender and thats maybe the reason why every player i look head to head at Kobe shuts down and the other ones shit on MJ lmao!

[Real Men Wear Green]

None of this crap is important. 6 rings, 5 MVPs, 9 scoring titles. Who cares if he scores a point more or a point less in a different situation?

[bwink23]

I never said he was gambling. Thats his playing style. Kobe's a man to man defender and thats maybe the reason why every player i look head to head at Kobe shuts down and the other ones shit on MJ lmao!


Kobe almost NEVER guards the opposing best player, and when he did it was very sporadic.....i can prove it thru youtube vids if you like?? :D

[juju151111]

The part that you're not taking into account is that fact that although the bulls weren't playing a fast pace game, there opponents were. When u play a high paced game, there's usually a lot of turnovers involved and that leads to open fast breaks. Scottie in a interview somewhere on youtube said he and Mj purposely tried getting lots of steals for each other to get fast break opportunities. And then there's the obvious about who'd be guarding him...No more 6 '3 190 Lb Joe Dumars...There'd be players that are bigger and stronger which are as fast or faster than the 90's defenders but i'm sure Jordan could average 40ppg on 55% shooting if he only played left handed in the no hand check era according to you :D.
Are you ****ing retarded? Mj got stls he had quick hands and reaction speed. Which is why he top 3 in stls alltim. You mean 6'3 Jason Kidd. Lol at you acting like Mj never faced someone taller then 6'3. Mj played against Cooper(6'6 long wingspan ,Wilkins(6'6,)Penny hardaway (6'7),Ray Allen(6'6), etc....
Here is Mj vs 6'7 long arms Reggie Lewis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPNNdJLfKEg shut ur dumbass up

[Zedja]

Kobe>Kareem>Tony Allen>Jordan.




:crazysam:

[CelticBaller]

OK, somebody go ahead and instigate the inevitable: make this about Kobe vs. MJ.
Seems like every kobe and jordan thread these days turns out like that :lol

[SlayerEnraged]

Are you ****ing retarded? Mj got stls he had quick hands and reaction speed. Which is why he top 3 in stls alltim. You mean 6'3 Jason Kidd. Lol at you acting like Mj never faced someone taller then 6'3. Mj played against Cooper(6'6 long wingspan ,Wilkins(6'6,)Penny hardaway (6'7),Ray Allen(6'6), etc....
Here is Mj vs 6'7 long arms Reggie Lewis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPNNdJLfKEg shut ur dumbass up

Those guys suck. Michael Jordan actually never guarded players even close to the level of dwayne wade, carmello anthony or lebron james. Or did he try to guard Nique and Bird, his best players, etc? If he did i'll post some stats of what they did to him :roll:

[eliteballer]

Bad Boys- allowed more PPG than Nash/Nowitzki Mavs

[bwink23]

Those guys suck. Michael Jordan actually never guarded players even close to the level of dwayne wade, carmello anthony or lebron james. Or did he try to guard Nique and Bird, his best players, etc? If he did i'll post some stats of what they did to him :roll:

How can you do that?? :confusedshrug:

The videos say Kobe rarely guarded the other teams best player....which take a FAT DUMP on generic head-to-head finders that don't say who guarded who, and for how long. :no:


Would like an example, here's one of 100's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlcGZjJbiOw

Why are Vince and Kobe NOT guarding each other in this video??

:lol .....i got a million of these....better put that H-to-H finder away, i'm gonna smoke you with vids....:pimp:

[juju151111]

Those guys suck. Michael Jordan actually never guarded players even close to the level of dwayne wade, carmello anthony or lebron james. Or did he try to guard Nique and Bird, his best players, etc? If he did i'll post some stats of what they did to him :roll:
Mj guarded Clyde and Wilkins

[SlayerEnraged]

Mj guarded Clyde and Wilkins

Clydes no Wade or Lebron and Wilkins was in the second half of his career and still averaged 30.2ppg on 48.3% vs the great defender MJ lol. Clyde drops 42 on DPOY MJ...Mj was just a stealer and Blocker. Mediocre man to man defender which is why guys like Dominique never struggle vs MJ.

[SlayerEnraged]

How can you do that?? :confusedshrug:

The videos say Kobe rarely guarded the other teams best player....which take a FAT DUMP on generic head-to-head finders that don't say who guarded who, and for how long. :no:


Would like an example, here's one of 100's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlcGZjJbiOw

Why are Vince and Kobe NOT guarding each other in this video??

:lol .....i got a million of these....better put that H-to-H finder away, i'm gonna smoke you with vids....:pimp:

Kobe Bryant is matched up with Dwayne Wade and used to guard Lebron untill Artest and Ariza ever were. The general point is when Mj's supposed to be guarded them he's gettin lit up period.

[bwink23]

Clydes no Wade or Lebron and Wilkins was in the second half of his career and still averaged 30.2ppg on 48.3% vs the great defender MJ lol. Clyde drops 42 on DPOY MJ...Mj was just a stealer and Blocker. Mediocre man to man defender which is why guys like Dominique never struggle vs MJ.


Why do you keep spewing this hot garbage out of your mouth?? Show your video proof....:pimp:

[bwink23]

Kobe Bryant is matched up with Dwayne Wade and used to guard Lebron untill Artest and Ariza ever were. The general point is when Mj's supposed to be guarded them he's gettin lit up period.


WATCH THE VIDEO KID...should i post more?

[SlayerEnraged]

How can you do that?? :confusedshrug:

The videos say Kobe rarely guarded the other teams best player....which take a FAT DUMP on generic head-to-head finders that don't say who guarded who, and for how long. :no:


Would like an example, here's one of 100's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlcGZjJbiOw

Why are Vince and Kobe NOT guarding each other in this video??

:lol .....i got a million of these....better put that H-to-H finder away, i'm gonna smoke you with vids....:pimp:

Nice try but I didn't say Kobe Kobe guarded Vince Carter and also even the 2nd and 3rd bes players on teams now days are better than the shooting guards in the 90's lmao!

[iamgine]

Game pace of his Chicago Bulls (87-93)

1987 - 95.8, 37.1 ppg (game pace rank = 23rd LAST)
1988 - 95.5, 35.0 ppg ( 23rd = LAST)
1989 - 97.0, 32.5 ppg (23rd out of 25 teams)
1990 - 96.7, 33.6 ppg (17th out of 27 teams)
1991 - 95.6, 31.5 ppg (19th out of 27 teams)
1992 - 94.4, 30.1 ppg (22nd out of 27 teams)
1993 - 92.5, 32.6 ppg (27th = LAST)

Average game pace of Bulls 87-93 = 95.4
Average game pace from 05 - 11 = 91.7

Do you think that the incredible disparity of 3-4 possessions a game can keep Michael Air Jeffrey Jordan from topping 30 points a game, which so routinely did in his era of ultra-fast paced, sprinting up and down the floor style of basketball??

:coleman:
It could, but the no handcheck rule will boost him right up.

[SlayerEnraged]

Why do you keep spewing this hot garbage out of your mouth?? Show your video proof....:pimp:

A jordan fan said Mj guarded WIlkins...Can u fools not keep the story straight? What one is it? The most overrated defensive player thats afraid to guard small forwards or good pg's or the overrated defensive player that gets smoked trying to be bruce bowen?

[bwink23]

Kobe Bryant is matched up with Dwayne Wade and used to guard Lebron untill Artest and Ariza ever were. The general point is when Mj's supposed to be guarded them he's gettin lit up period.


BIG DEAL!!! He never guarded them the entire game either....AND he only plays them TWICE A YEAR, WOOOPIDITY DOO!!!

:lol

[SlayerEnraged]

Why do you keep spewing this hot garbage out of your mouth?? Show your video proof....:pimp:

i dont need to kid. I watched the heat and lakers game a few weeks ago. Saw Kobe drop 30+ on Wade while Wade shot 7-17 for 16 points or something similar.

I've already been through this with u and compared the stats of Wade when artest was guarding Wade vs the years before that Kobe guarded him... Kobe was locking Wade down during his best statistical season to.

[bwink23]

A jordan fan said Mj guarded WIlkins...Can u fools not keep the story straight? What one is it? The most overrated defensive player thats afraid to guard small forwards or good pg's or the overrated defensive player that gets smoked trying to be bruce bowen?


You got YOUTUBE, use it clown!!

[gengiskhan]

It could, but the no handcheck rule will boost him right up.

Plus

MJ hated taking 3 pt shots. He said its for lazy players who got limited skill set.

that hatred of 3 pt shot & no handchecking rule & ability to palm the ball at will because of huge hand size

I dont know how MJ will not ave less than 40 ppg in his scoring prime.

probably even more.

Drexler another player will benefit enormously. Clyde was mainly palm the ball go to basket & dunk kind of player. he never had post up game.

Drexler's scoring will go up to. bigger than MJ. stronger & taller than MJ & huge hand size.

[SlayerEnraged]

BIG DEAL!!! He never guarded them the entire game either....AND he only plays them TWICE A YEAR, WOOOPIDITY DOO!!!

:lol

you're not the best if u don't face the best. Most of these silly ass sg's u fools claim are lock down defenders or perimiter offensive players wouldn't start in todays game. Hell, James Harden is the 3rd best thunder player and Kobe has to guard him some of every game and he's better than 90% of the SG'S back then :roll:

[bwink23]

i dont need to kid. I watched the heat and lakers game a few weeks ago. Saw Kobe drop 30+ on Wade while Wade shot 7-17 for 16 points or something similar.

I've already been through this with u and compared the stats of Wade when artest was guarding Wade vs the years before that Kobe guarded him... Kobe was locking Wade down during his best statistical season to.


Lebron and Wade...TWICE A DAMN YEAR.....and not even guarding them the whole game..

KEEP TRYING SON...

[SlayerEnraged]

You got YOUTUBE, use it clown!!

Call ur jordan fan a clown. U guys can't keep the damn story straight! :lol. By question why is Kobe Bryant a top 50 player to u? I thought he only shot 45%, plays in a hand checking era and got handed 3 rings....He sucks why's he a top 50 player ever? :rolleyes:

[bwink23]

you're not the best if u don't face the best. Most of these silly ass sg's u fools claim are lock down defenders or perimiter offensive players wouldn't start in todays game. Hell, James Harden is the 3rd best thunder player and Kobe has to guard him some of every game and he's better than 90% of the SG'S back then :roll:


Kobe doesn't have to guard anyone, LOL!!! He gets bailed out by help defense more times than i can count....:lol

[gengiskhan]

I'll take kidd over Nash any given day.

Kidd got the heart, fighting spirit.

hard ot imagine kidd got 0 MVPs & Nash got 2.

Kidd really deserved that 2003 MVP with Nets IMO. He took weak team to NBA finals on his incredible skills alone.

[Legends66NBA7]

Call ur jordan fan a clown. U guys can't keep the damn story straight. By question why is Kobe Bryant a top 50 player to u? I thought he only shot 45%, plays in a hand checking era and got handed 3 rings....He sucks why's he a top 50 player ever?

He's a volume scorer, but nobody has him out of the Top 50...

Unless it's Shaqpopcorn34 or something on YouTube. :oldlol:

There's no need to be extreme.

[SlayerEnraged]

Lebron and Wade...TWICE A DAMN YEAR.....and not even guarding them the whole game..

KEEP TRYING SON...


Doesn't matter. The average Joe Sg is better now as well. I bet u anything there's more 15+ppg guards in the 2000's than 90's. You say they had better big men back then? Who gives a crap? He didn't guard them. He had the best defensive center on his team and a guy named Horace Grant who's about as good as Andrew Bynum (better than Bynum in all years except this year).

[bwink23]

Call ur jordan fan a clown. U guys can't keep the damn story straight! :lol. By question why is Kobe Bryant a top 50 player to u? I thought he only shot 45%, plays in a hand checking era and got handed 3 rings....He sucks why's he a top 50 player ever? :rolleyes:


Even Tex Winter said Kobe's Defense sucks and it hurts the team...

"I

[Legends66NBA7]

I'll take kidd over Nash any given day.

Kidd got the heart, fighting spirit.

The hell ?

I would probably take Kidd too, but come on. Nash breaks his nose in the playoffs, get a bump from Horry, etc... he still comes and balls his heart out.

Dude has the Canadian/Hockey mentality.

:pimp:

[SlayerEnraged]

He's a volume scorer, but nobody has him out of the Top 50...

Unless it's Shaqpopcorn34 or something on YouTube. :oldlol:

There's no need to be extreme.


Well why is he top 50? Why doesn't the 45%, the 3 rings handed to him, hand checking era bring him below that? Why is this mentioned when comparing him to Mj but not vs. guys like CLyde or DOminique, etc? WHy don't Jordan stans stfu when its not about jordan?

[bwink23]

Doesn't matter. The average Joe Sg is better now as well. I bet u anything there's more 15+ppg guards in the 2000's than 90's. You say they had better big men back then? Who gives a crap? He didn't guard them. He had the best defensive center on his team and a guy named Horace Grant who's about as good as Andrew Bynum (better than Bynum in all years except this year).


WRONG!!!! coming from the kid i'm positive hasn't seen ONE DAMN FULL GAME from the 80's or the 90's....Sit your young butt down homer. :pimp:

[SlayerEnraged]

[QUOTE=bwink23]Even Tex Winter said Kobe's Defense sucks and it hurts the team...

"I

[bwink23]

He can say anything he wants. The results on paper show he's doing something right to his opponents. Every1 says Jordans a good defender but the stats say he's just an allen iverson lmao!


You mean Rick Fox, Ron Harper, Trevor Ariza, and Ron Artest doing something right :lol



:pimp:

[SlayerEnraged]

WRONG!!!! coming from the kid i'm positive hasn't seen ONE DAMN FULL GAME from the 80's or the 90's....Sit your young butt down homer. :pimp:


Find out how many 15-20+ career ppg sg's, pg's or sf's played in the 90's. This is gonan be hilariously embarassing lmao! Bernard Kigns Peak year isn't 24-30...it COMES AT 34 in the 90's LOL!

[SlayerEnraged]

You mean Rick Fox, Ron Harper, Trevor Ariza, and Ron Artest doing something right :lol



:pimp:

Nope. You didn't watch 00-2009 Kobe defensively.

[bwink23]

Find out how many 15-20+ career ppg sg's, pg's or sf's played in the 90's. This is gonan be hilariously embarassing lmao! Bernard Kigns Peak year isn't 24-30...it COMES AT 34 in the 90's LOL!

You talk like Bernard King sucks, LOL!!! You don't know crap....Bernard King would eat Carmelo's lunch....:pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

Why is this mentioned when comparing him to Mj but not vs. guys like CLyde or DOminique, etc?

I've seen it been used in comparison with those guys, actually.


WHy don't Jordan stans stfu when its not about jordan?

When you talk about a player like Jordan, everything is magnified even more.

Is Nique and Drexler considered the GOAT ? No.

And even more so, there are a lot of Jordan fans, considering he was an Icon before and after.

So I doubt you would ever hear the last of them. They have every metric, accolade, context, and consistency on their side.

So naturally, they will use it against all, since their fanatics as well.

[bwink23]

Nope. You didn't watch 00-2009 Kobe defensively.


I watched Kobe get burned ALOT, LOL!! How come no defense player of the year awards for Kobe??

Even Lebron is a candidate this year....when has Kobe EVER been a serious candidate??

:biggums:

[SlayerEnraged]

You talk like Bernard King sucks, LOL!!! You don't know crap....Bernard King would eat Carmelo's lunch....:pimp:

Nope lol. No1 has a peak year at age 34. You dont get your 2nd highest scoring year and best overall statistical year at age 34 unless somethings up.

[bwink23]

Nope lol. No1 has a peak year at age 34. You dont get your 2nd highest scoring year and best overall statistical year at age 34 unless somethings up.


Kobe's leading the league in scoring this year at almost 34, LOL!!!

SHEEEEEETTTTT!!!!

[Legends66NBA7]

when has Kobe EVER been a serious candidate??

2004, I think ? But that's only votings, from the top my head...

[SlayerEnraged]

I watched Kobe get burned ALOT, LOL!! How come no defense player of the year awards for Kobe??

Even Lebron is a candidate this year....when has Kobe EVER been a serious candidate??

:biggums:

03 AND 04 Kobe easily shoulda. Shane Battier and BrucE bOWen have never won one either. Jordan and DPOY=stat award. MJ=allen Iverson..Is allen Iverson the bruce bowen defensive player for guards lmao!?

[SlayerEnraged]

Kobe's leading the league in scoring this year at almost 34, LOL!!!

SHEEEEEETTTTT!!!!

Kobe Bryant is shit loads better than Bernard King AND he's doing it on his 2nd highest fga EVER.

[bwink23]

03 AND 04 Kobe easily shoulda. Shane Battier and BrucE bOWen have never won one either. Jordan and DPOY=stat award. MJ=allen Iverson..Is allen Iverson the bruce bowen defensive player for guards lmao!?


We're done here kid....Move your silly juvenile, punk-bitch ass to the door....i don't entertain shit like this.....BYE BYE KOBE BALL LICKER!!!

[bwink23]

Kobe Bryant is shit loads better than Bernard King AND he's doing it on his 2nd highest fga EVER.


I've NEVER put anyone on my ignore list...congratulations you've made the list...it takes some REALLY STUPID crap to get there, and you've made it...


CONGRATS CRACKHEAD!! :biggums:

[miller-time]

Kobe's leading the league in scoring this year at almost 34, LOL!!!

SHEEEEEETTTTT!!!!

he's 0.4 ppg ahead of durant with a lower fg% and 200 or so more attempts. lets call it "leading"

[iamgine]

Hard data:

In '90-91 season, teams on average attempted 8156 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)
In '10-11 season, teams on average attempted 7539 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)

That's a difference of 617 shots. Or 7.5 shots a game (617 shot attempts/82 games).

MJ in '90-91 shot about 25% of all his team's FGA.

That means, if MJ is transferred to an average team in 2011, he'd shot about 1.8 less FGA than he did back then (25% x 7.5). If everything stays the same, he should average about 1.2 less points than he did (60TS% x 1.8 FGA).

Given the more perimeter oriented game nowadays, It would be logical that MJ would only increase his efficiency, offsetting the 1.2 less points if everything stays the same.

[bwink23]

Hard data:

In '90-91 season, teams on average attempted 8156 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)
In '10-11 season, teams on average attempted 7539 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)

That's a difference of 617 shots. Or 7.5 shots a game (617 shot attempts/82 games).

MJ in '90-91 shot about 25% of all his team's FGA.

That means, if MJ is transferred to an average team in 2011, he'd shot about 1.8 less FGA than he did back then (25% x 7.5). If everything stays the same, he should average about 1.2 less points than he did (60TS% x 1.8 FGA).

Given the more perimeter oriented game nowadays, It would be logical that MJ would only increase his efficiency, offsetting the 1.2 less points if everything stays the same.



The amount of shots taken per team has never had an impact on a superstar's Fg attempts....Jordan got 20-23 FG attempts a game and 4-5 FT's as a Wizard in a slow-ass paced era. Prime Jordan would get his usual in his sleep.

[juju151111]

Slayer your a dumbass its that simple. I will shut ur ass down soon when I get home

[SlayerEnraged]

I've NEVER put anyone on my ignore list...congratulations you've made the list...it takes some REALLY STUPID crap to get there, and you've made it...


CONGRATS CRACKHEAD!! :biggums:

are u still talking? when will u just learn to stfu? I remember u put me on ur ignore list a long as time ago and u were back to postin within an hour :roll:

Please kid...Every1 knows all ur posts about here are either to degrade kobe or talk about Mj. MJ's DONE kid. We don't needa hear daily useless information or stating stuff we already KNOW.

[Psileas]

Analogically, the Bulls would be playing at a slightly higher game pace if playing today....:rolleyes: ...Analogically, analogicalism has no logicalism when comparing game pace in 2 different eras....teams don't all play at the same game pace....

It's a good thing to be sarcastic at your own non-understanding of analogies. In any other case, you're just bubbling. The Bulls were constantly playing at a lower pace than the rest of the league, as you very clearly stated yourself. So, what makes you think that in today's league they'd suddenly pick up speed and retain the same pace they played in '87-93?
Hey I can play the same game, too, and I'll actually make it worse than you: A 1960's team would be able to play at a 60's pace even if they played in the 2000's, meaning that its players would produce the same stats (just a few less rebounds and a few more assists). Evidence: Some teams in the 60's played at the same pace with some teams of the 70's, some teams in the 70's played at the same pace with some teams of the 80's, some teams in the 80's played at the same pace with some teams of the 90's, Some teams in the 90's played at the same pace with some teams of the 00's, therefore, some teams of the 60's would play at the same pace with some teams of the 00's. Lovable, right?


Analogically, your saying it's not possible for the Bulls to play at a 95.4 game pace in the 2000's...

No, I'm saying it's not expected for the Bulls to play at a 95.4 game pace in the 2000's.


just looking at the 2008 season, these teams would disagree with you:

Nuggets, Warriors, Pacers, Suns, Sonics, Lakers, Grizzlies.....all played at 95.3 game pace or better.

It doesn't matter. These teams are fast paced teams whose games don't resemble the game of the Bulls.
Suns he says, LOL!


So analogically, your logicalism is FLAWED....:D

Next time, try to argue on something you understand before you try to tell me whether my "logicalism" is flawed.

[SlayerEnraged]

Slayer your a dumbass its that simple. I will shut ur ass down soon when I get home

O my god i'm so scared i might get verbally abused over the internet :cry:

[Psileas]

Michael Jordan's scoring averages are actually DEFLATED due to anti-perimeter scoring rules!

Michael jordan actual average under 2000-present "perimeter friendly" rules.

total 30.1ppg +5-6 ppg = 35.5-36.5 ppg

1987: 37.1 + 6 ppg = 43.1 ppg
1988: 35 + 6 ppg = 41 ppg
1989: 32.5 + 5 ppg = 37.5 ppg
1990: 33.5 + 5-6 ppg = 38.5-39 ppg

etc etc etc.

Who is gonna stop MJ from dunking every 2nd FG when:

-NO big men camping under the basket.
-NO handcheck rules.
-Touch fouls to send MJ to the FT line (MJ shots over 85% FT easily)
-Less energy sapping offensive oriented game. suits MJ perimeter game perfectly.

I wouldnt be surprise if MJ goes all out offensively in one season to score 44-45 PPG for all 82 games.

Playoffs: I believe MJ will ave 38-40 ppgs easily just to win 8-9 Rings easily.

nobody stopping him.

for 9 NBA Finals. MJ ave 41-42 ppgs as his 1993 NBA finals average.

9-0 in NBA Finals with 9 rings.

also, I see MJ quitting after playing 10 full seasons just for being way too good for the league. then we'll see dunkin, Shaq win 1 each as they age.

Kobe will make 1 NBA finals. loose it. will always be remembered as 2nd best who was born in the wrong era. :coleman:

Answer this, please: What would Wizards' Jordan's numbers be if he played in the prime Jordan years?

[Soundwave]

The Bulls really didn't have a reliable no.2 scoring option until 1990 when Pippen started to mature into his game.

So even though scoring was obviously higher in the late 80s, it was also a lot easier to double/triple team Jordan in those days.

In the 90s when he got some actual help ... not so easy (ask the Pistons).

[gengiskhan]

Answer this, please: What would Wizards' Jordan's numbers be if he played in the prime Jordan years?

1985-1999:

Wizard MJ

2002: 20 ppg -3 pts
2003: 18 ppg. -2 pts

also MJ will play less mins cuz of too much physical full court D was played in '90s. MJ will expand more energy not scoring & just coming off picks & screens.

[Psileas]

1985-1999:

Wizard MJ

2002: 20 ppg -3 pts
2003: 18 ppg. -2 pts

also MJ will play less mins cuz of too much physical full court D was played in '90s. MJ will expand more energy not scoring & just coming off picks & screens.

So, he'll play less minutes due to physical defenses, he'll expand more energy, yet, he'll maintain practically the same point/minute ratio?

How many minutes would you think Jordan would play today to supposedly get to 39-43 ppg? The same 37-40 mpg that he got in his era?

[gengiskhan]

So, he'll play less minutes due to physical defenses, he'll expand more energy, yet, he'll maintain practically the same point/minute ratio?

you are forgetting 1 thing about MJ.

MJ got killer mid-range game. Wizard MJ used this mid-range to get 23ppg & 20 ppg despite bum knees & being old.

MJ's pt production will go down in '90s era but will earn tons of pts from FT line.


How many minutes would you think Jordan would play today to supposedly get to 39-43 ppg? The same 37-40 mpg that he got in his era?

On poor line up of chicago bulls with journeymen as his prime scoring career was.

40+ mins. YOung MJ had incredible stamina. one reason why he could go ave 37+ ppg & still play killer D & get 200+ stls & 100+ blocks & play all 82 games & still participate in SLAM DUNK CONTEST unlike LBJ, Wade, Kobe who like to cool their heels.

MJ was different breed. The guy love to compete.

In today's NBA, I dont see how prime MJ will ave less than 40 ppgs. comfortably. all the rules as in his favor.

[juju151111]

O my god i'm so scared i might get verbally abused over the internet :cry:
Didn't you create a thread about killng yourself? Anyways retard J was a great man defender.
Mj held Clyde to 41% in the NBA finals.
Mj is asked by Phil to guard Isiah in 1990 and the results held him to below 40%
1993 was voted best defender by coaches :coleman:

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Lord%20Of%20The%20Rings/six-onlybucket.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Crazy%20Stat%20n%20Record/Michael%20Jordan/2001-1.jpg

/thread

[Cali Syndicate]

Nope lol. No1 has a peak year at age 34. You dont get your 2nd highest scoring year and best overall statistical year at age 34 unless somethings up.

So then explain what was it about the 91 season that caused King's increased average which not only affected him but many other players as well that would at least provide some evidence for why you brought that up?

[ILLsmak]

None of this crap is important. 6 rings, 5 MVPs, 9 scoring titles. Who cares if he scores a point more or a point less in a different situation?

No doubt. lol

-Smak

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hard data:

In '90-91 season, teams on average attempted 8156 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)
In '10-11 season, teams on average attempted 7539 shots (Avg League FGA + .44 x FTA)

That's a difference of 617 shots. Or 7.5 shots a game (617 shot attempts/82 games).

MJ in '90-91 shot about 25% of all his team's FGA.

That means, if MJ is transferred to an average team in 2011, he'd shot about 1.8 less FGA than he did back then (25% x 7.5). If everything stays the same, he should average about 1.2 less points than he did (60TS% x 1.8 FGA).

Given the more perimeter oriented game nowadays, It would be logical that MJ would only increase his efficiency, offsetting the 1.2 less points if everything stays the same.
EFG%

2012:.485
2011..498
2010:.501
2009:.500
2008:.497
2007:.496
2006:.490
2005:.482
2004:.471
2003:.474
2002:.477
2001:.473
2000:.478
1999:.466
1998:.478
1997:.493
1996:.499
1995:.500
1994:.485
1993:.491
1992:.487
1991:.487
1990:.489
1989:.489
1988:.489
1987:.488
1986:.493
1985:.496
1984:.495
1983:.488
1982:.495
1981:.489
1980:.486

2010s:.492
2000s:.484
1990s:.488
1980s:.491


2 PT%

79-80:. 488
80-81:. 491
81-82:. 497
82-83: .492
83-84: .499
84-85: .499
85-86: .495
86-87: .490
87-88: .490
88-89: .490
89-90: .488
90-91: .488
91-92: .486
92-93: .489
93-94: .483
94-95: .491
95-96: .486
96-97: .480
97-98: .470
98-99: .457 (Short Season)
99-00: .468
00-01: .461
01-02: .465
02-03: .463
03-04: .460
04-05: .470
05-06: .478
06-07: .485
07-08: .485
08-09: .485
09-10: .492
10-11: .487
11-12: .472 (Short Season)

[Psileas]

you are forgetting 1 thing about MJ.

MJ got killer mid-range game. Wizard MJ used this mid-range to get 23ppg & 20 ppg despite bum knees & being old.

MJ's pt production will go down in '90s era but will earn tons of pts from FT line.

I'm not forgetting this. On the contrary, people forget that players like Kobe, late 00's Wade, late 00's Carmelo, etc, also have a killer mid-range, and Kobe had a better long range game than all of them. If old Jordan somehow managed to keep this ratio at the same level, I have no doubt these guys would do the same if they played at the same era and Kobe might probably exceed it.

On poor line up of chicago bulls with journeymen as his prime scoring career was.


40+ mins. YOung MJ had incredible stamina. one reason why he could go ave 37+ ppg & still play killer D & get 200+ stls & 100+ blocks & play all 82 games & still participate in SLAM DUNK CONTEST unlike LBJ, Wade, Kobe who like to cool their heels.

MJ was different breed. The guy love to compete.

In today's NBA, I dont see how prime MJ will ave less than 40 ppgs. comfortably. all the rules as in his favor.

You should see how, given that, if he managed to average 40 ppg, friendly rules and all, he'd enjoy a 10+ ppg advantage over the second leading scorer of the league most of the seasons, which he never actually managed. You take Kobe's and Iverson's career numbers way too far. I don't see Kobe having multiple 35 ppg seasons, neither do I see Iverson doing so, neither LeBron or Wade, who at times did nothing more than just drive to the basket and drow fouls like crazy. They didn't even come close. Honestly, I don't believe Jordan would have a single 40 ppg season, regardless of how friendly the rules are, except if he played in the 2006 season for a team like the Bobcats. If the rules were as flexible as you think, we'd be having 35-40 ppg scoring leaders season after season, yet the actual numbers aren't more impressive than the numbers of the 90's leaders and less impressive than the numbers of the 80's leaders.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not forgetting this. On the contrary, people forget that players like Kobe, late 00's Wade, late 00's Carmelo, etc, also have a killer mid-range, and Kobe had a better long range game than all of them. If old Jordan somehow managed to keep this ratio at the same level, I have no doubt these guys would do the same if they played at the same era and Kobe might probably exceed it.

On poor line up of chicago bulls with journeymen as his prime scoring career was.



You should see how, given that, if he managed to average 40 ppg, friendly rules and all, he'd enjoy a 10+ ppg advantage over the second leading scorer of the league most of the seasons, which he never actually managed. You take Kobe's and Iverson's career numbers way too far. I don't see Kobe having multiple 35 ppg seasons, neither do I see Iverson doing so, neither LeBron or Wade, who at times did nothing more than just drive to the basket and drow fouls like crazy. They didn't even come close. Honestly, I don't believe Jordan would have a single 40 ppg season, regardless of how friendly the rules are, except if he played in the 2006 season for a team like the Bobcats. If the rules were as flexible as you think, we'd be having 35-40 ppg scoring leaders season after season, yet the actual numbers aren't more impressive than the numbers of the 90's leaders and less impressive than the numbers of the 80's leaders.

Neither would Wilt, but obviously you knew that.

[tommyhtc]

I'm not forgetting this. On the contrary, people forget that players like Kobe, late 00's Wade, late 00's Carmelo, etc, also have a killer mid-range, and Kobe had a better long range game than all of them. If old Jordan somehow managed to keep this ratio at the same level, I have no doubt these guys would do the same if they played at the same era and Kobe might probably exceed it.

On poor line up of chicago bulls with journeymen as his prime scoring career was.



You should see how, given that, if he managed to average 40 ppg, friendly rules and all, he'd enjoy a 10+ ppg advantage over the second leading scorer of the league most of the seasons, which he never actually managed. You take Kobe's and Iverson's career numbers way too far. I don't see Kobe having multiple 35 ppg seasons, neither do I see Iverson doing so, neither LeBron or Wade, who at times did nothing more than just drive to the basket and drow fouls like crazy. They didn't even come close. Honestly, I don't believe Jordan would have a single 40 ppg season, regardless of how friendly the rules are, except if he played in the 2006 season for a team like the Bobcats. If the rules were as flexible as you think, we'd be having 35-40 ppg scoring leaders season after season, yet the actual numbers aren't more impressive than the numbers of the 90's leaders and less impressive than the numbers of the 80's leaders.
the extent to which the rules are flexible can be seen by the number of perimeter players on the scoring leader list...

I'm doing this on top of my head... but I believe back in the 90s we had very few perimeter players on the top 10 or top 20 of the points per game list... of course you can say this is due to the lack of perimter talents( which I believe is wrong), but after the rule changes, we see a huge number of perimeter players on the scoring leader list... is this a coincidence?

[Psileas]

the extent to which the rules are flexible can be seen by the number of perimeter players on the scoring leader list...

I'm doing this on top of my head... but I believe back in the 90s we had very few perimeter players on the top 10 or top 20 of the points per game list... of course you can say this is due to the lack of perimter talents( which I believe is wrong), but after the rule changes, we see a huge number of perimeter players on the scoring leader list... is this a coincidence?

I do think the game is more perimeter-oriented than any time before, so whether or not there is more perimeter talent, it's definite that it turns "perimeter-oriented", even for big men. Garnett in the 80's would probably play C, not because players were smaller (they were roughly the same size), but because he'd be used as a threat in the paint. Dirk to a smaller extent, though he'd still take more 3's than any other big man.
Having said that, I find today more SG's to be all-around talented than in any other era, although Jordan still ranks #1 as the best all-around SG of them all.


Neither would Wilt, but obviously you knew that.

If you implied that I wrote this to prop Wilt, you were wrong. Neither have I ever written or agreed that Wilt would get 40 ppg.

[Disaprine]

Kobe>Kareem>Tony Allen>Jordan.




:crazysam:
:coleman:

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't believe Jordan would average 40 in the '06-'12 era either, but people are kidding themselves if they don't believe he'd have 2-3 seasons of 35-37.5 ppg/6+ reb/5 ast/46-48% FG/56-58% TS, especially from '06-'08 when everyone's numbers blew up. 11 FTA/gm is the baseline for 24-28 year old MJ in the '06-'08 NBA.

His average season would be between 31.5-33.5 pts/6-7 reb/5.5-7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.1 blk/51-53% FG/58-62% TS.

[eliteballer]

I don't believe Jordan would average 40 in the '06-'12 era either, but people are kidding themselves if they don't believe he'd have 2-3 seasons of 35-37.5 ppg/6+ reb/5 ast/46-48% FG/56-58% TS, especially from '06-'08 when everyone's numbers blew up. 11 FTA/gm is the baseline for 24-28 year old MJ in the '06-'08 NBA.

His average season would be between 31.5-33.5 pts/6-7 reb/5.5-7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.1 blk/51-53% FG/58-62% TS.


Way to pull numbers out of your a$$:roll:

[SlayerEnraged]

Didn't you create a thread about killng yourself? Anyways retard J was a great man defender.
Mj held Clyde to 41% in the NBA finals.
Mj is asked by Phil to guard Isiah in 1990 and the results held him to below 40%
1993 was voted best defender by coaches :coleman:

Drexler= choker and no where near mj. Rookie Wade/Lebron>Prime drexler. Lol isiah really? A non scoring pg?

When I have time i'll look up these players career stats vs. Mj...U'll either be making up a excuse saying he wasn't guarding them and then i'll just tell u he was to pussey to pussey to man up and guard them throguhout his career then :P. :roll: :roll: Later Loser. I'll Be back with those stats some time :).

Clyde Drexler
Dominique WIlkins
Bernard King
Larry Bird
Dale Ellis
Mitch Richmond
Chris Mullin
Reggie MIller
Hersey Hawkins
Ricky Pierce
Joe DUmars
Glen Rice
Reggie Lewis
Kendall Gill
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill

[Legends66NBA7]

When I have time i'll look up these players career stats vs. Mj...

Eh, those can be misleading at times as well, unless put into context... That goes for really any player.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Way to pull numbers out of your a$$:roll:

When CLEARLY inferior players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, Iverson etc. are posting seasons of like 35/6/4, 32/7/7, 33/8, 29+/6, it's safe to say that either 35+/6/5 (if he needed to score more) or 33/6+/6 on better efficiency (if he didn't need to score as much) would be a lock for 24-29 year old Jordan. Get real, kid. :oldlol:

[Cali Syndicate]

EFG%

2012:.485
2011..498
2010:.501
2009:.500
2008:.497
2007:.496
2006:.490
2005:.482
2004:.471
2003:.474
2002:.477
2001:.473
2000:.478
1999:.466
1998:.478
1997:.493
1996:.499
1995:.500
1994:.485
1993:.491
1992:.487
1991:.487
1990:.489
1989:.489
1988:.489
1987:.488
1986:.493
1985:.496
1984:.495
1983:.488
1982:.495
1981:.489
1980:.486

2010s:.492
2000s:.484
1990s:.488
1980s:.491


2 PT%

79-80:. 488
80-81:. 491
81-82:. 497
82-83: .492
83-84: .499
84-85: .499
85-86: .495
86-87: .490
87-88: .490
88-89: .490
89-90: .488
90-91: .488
91-92: .486
92-93: .489
93-94: .483
94-95: .491
95-96: .486
96-97: .480
97-98: .470
98-99: .457 (Short Season)
99-00: .468
00-01: .461
01-02: .465
02-03: .463
03-04: .460
04-05: .470
05-06: .478
06-07: .485
07-08: .485
08-09: .485
09-10: .492
10-11: .487
11-12: .472 (Short Season)

New rules instated for the 05 season to curtail hand-checking, blocking and defensive 3 in the key.

the numbers you posted clearly shows the %'s increasing with the new rules until the %'s were right on par with the 90's which was an era dominated by big men while this era is dominated by perimeter players.

This season the % dropped but that's obviously because of the shortened season as it was the case in the 99 season.

[gengiskhan]

I'm not forgetting this. On the contrary, people forget that players like Kobe, late 00's Wade, late 00's Carmelo, etc, also have a killer mid-range, and Kobe had a better long range game than all of them. If old Jordan somehow managed to keep this ratio at the same level, I have no doubt these guys would do the same if they played at the same era and Kobe might probably exceed it.

absolutely DISAGREE.

Kobe, Wade, Lebron all actually lack mid-range game. Kobe is doing better than wade & lebron scoring wise because of his bulk FGA & excellent FT % game NOT because of his mid-range game. If Kobe ever had MJ like mid-range game, his efficiency & FG% will seriously go up. but NO.

Wade is more slash & drive to the basket player. Kobe is more developed. Dunkin is the only one who had solid mid-range game. Iverson sucked at it. wade, lebron both have outside & drive to the basket game unlike kobe.

Kobe has ave inside game around the basket. Wade & lebron are much better around the basket. specially LBJ. Kobe is better at outside game because of the post up game he got. Wade doesnt. LBJ is very ave at it.

MJ has the best inside game around the basket in the history of NBA. nobody is even close besides Wilt & Kareem & Shaq.

MJ has the best mid-range game in NBA history. Hakeem, kareem, Bird probably comes close.

Kobe, wade, Lebron should not even be mentioned in same breath as MJ regarding mid-range game. Especially Kobe who shoots 45% FG%. His shot selections is poor thus his efficiency is poor & cannot get inside the paint area at will like MJ did.

MJ easily 40+ ppg scorer in today's soft NBA league in his peak bulk scoring years. (Deadly inside game + Best mid-range game in NBA history + excellent handles + extra large hand size + incredible stamina + empty paint area & no big men)

too easy

I say MJ ave 40+/7/7 for first 6 yrs of his career. then slow down


You should see how, given that, if he managed to average 40 ppg, friendly rules and all, he'd enjoy a 10+ ppg advantage over the second leading scorer of the league most of the seasons, which he never actually managed. You take Kobe's and Iverson's career numbers way too far. I don't see Kobe having multiple 35 ppg seasons, neither do I see Iverson doing so, neither LeBron or Wade, who at times did nothing more than just drive to the basket and drow fouls like crazy. They didn't even come close. Honestly, I don't believe Jordan would have a single 40 ppg season, regardless of how friendly the rules are, except if he played in the 2006 season for a team like the Bobcats. If the rules were as flexible as you think, we'd be having 35-40 ppg scoring leaders season after season, yet the actual numbers aren't more impressive than the numbers of the 90's leaders and less impressive than the numbers of the 80's leaders.

BTW, MJ already had 7-8 pts difference as scoring leader in 1987 when he ave 37.1. Dominique was close 2nd with 29 ppg in 1987 if I am correct

so dont be surprise if 9-10 ppg scoring difference btw MJ & kobe/wade/LBJ with perimeter friendly rules

[Indian guy]

The only noticeable decline would be in his FG%, which would be around 49-50% as opposed to 52-54%. Defense has gotten better and so has the competition on the perimeter. Everything else would pretty much be the same. If we transported the '92 Bulls in this era, for example, I see '92 MJ averaging the exact same numbers on 49-50% shooting as opposed to 52%+.

[gengiskhan]

The only noticeable decline would be in his FG%, which would be around 49-50% as opposed to 52-54%. Defense has gotten better and so has the competition on the perimeter. Everything else would pretty much be the same. If we transported the '92 Bulls in this era, for example, I see '92 MJ averaging the exact same numbers on 49-50% shooting as opposed to 52%+.


:lol :lol :lol :lol

this moron from india is probably an expert on cricket

defense got better. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

where are the '00 versions of knicks, heat, pacers, pistons, celtics that specialized in defense in '80s & '90s. etc etc.

[bwink23]

The only noticeable decline would be in his FG%, which would be around 49-50% as opposed to 52-54%. Defense has gotten better and so has the competition on the perimeter. Everything else would pretty much be the same. If we transported the '92 Bulls in this era, for example, I see '92 MJ averaging the exact same numbers on 49-50% shooting as opposed to 52%+.


yet Lebron James can shoot in excess on 53-55%FG in the last 7 years from inside the 3-point line....

but MJ couldn't do that???

YEAH RIGHT.....:biggums:

[OldSchoolBBall]

The only noticeable decline would be in his FG%, which would be around 49-50% as opposed to 52-54%. Defense has gotten better and so has the competition on the perimeter. Everything else would pretty much be the same. If we transported the '92 Bulls in this era, for example, I see '92 MJ averaging the exact same numbers on 49-50% shooting as opposed to 52%+.

There's no way MJ doesn't shoot 52% at a minimum for a few peak seasons in the '06-'11 NBA. He might not hit 54% for a few seasons like he did then, but 52% definitely. Guys who are/were significantly worse scorers than him, and way more limited in terms of their scoring game, were at 49-50%.

31-33 ppg @ 51-52% FG or 34-36 ppg at 47-49% FG imo.

[eliteballer]

When CLEARLY inferior players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, Iverson etc. are posting seasons of like 35/6/4, 32/7/7, 33/8, 29+/6, it's safe to say that either 35+/6/5 (if he needed to score more) or 33/6+/6 on better efficiency (if he didn't need to score as much) would be a lock for 24-29 year old Jordan. Get real, kid. :oldlol:

Arenas is clearly inferior to all those guys and his prime numbers weren't THAT much worse than them, and ALL those guys have advantages over Jordan in aspects of scoring. Its not cut and dry like you're trying to make it.

Dantley put up similar scoring numbers to Jordan, and he was clearly inferior to all these guys except Arenas.

Jordan putting up similar numbers to an era where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Dirk/Nash Mavs:oldlol:

[bwink23]

Arenas is clearly inferior to all those guys and his prime numbers weren't THAT much worse than them, and ALL those guys have advantages over Jordan in aspects of scoring. Its not cut and dry like you're trying to make it.

Dantley put up similar scoring numbers to Jordan, and he was clearly inferior to all these guys except Arenas.

Jordan putting up similar numbers to an era where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Dirk/Nash Mavs:oldlol:


And the 1991 Chicago Bulls with defensive stalwarts Jordan and Pippen allowed more PPG than old-ass Jordan's Wizards in 2003, LOL!!!!


WOOO WEEEE!!! That is some crazy shit right there Eliteness Baller dude !

[Indian guy]

Guys who are/were significantly worse scorers than him, and way more limited in terms of their scoring game, were at 49-50%.

Only a couple of guys have done that - LeBron and Wade, and they, believe it or not, do have some advantages over MJ. LeBron's a more dominant finisher(or was) and Wade's a better slasher. Given the limited ability of their perimeter games, they are also more willing to drive and play a higher % game. MJ was a lot more jump shot-oriented on the other hand. A higher volume shooter too. All of this would bring his efficiency down.

[mookie gaylock]

Kobe almost NEVER guards the opposing best player, and when he did it was very sporadic.....i can prove it thru youtube vids if you like?? :D

Yes please do that.

I'm about to take off with some friends to go out for the night. I expect to see this vids when I come back early tommorow morning. Don't work yourself too hard, lil buddy, you got all night! Hasta.

[eliteballer]

Kobe almost NEVER guards the opposing best player, and when he did it was very sporadic.....i can prove it thru youtube vids if you like??

He very often does, and you make it sound like Jordan had to guard premier players every night instead of joke wings, on the odd occasion PIPPEN couldnt cover one of the few premier swings.

[bwink23]

Yes please do that.

I'm about to take off with some friends to go out for the night. I expect to see this vids when I come back early tommorow morning. Don't work yourself too hard, lil buddy, you got all night! Hasta.


Later GAYlock.

[bwink23]

He very often does, and you make it sound like Jordan had to guard premier players every night instead of joke wings, on the odd occasion PIPPEN couldnt cover one of the few premier swings.


Actually, he very often DOES NOT....:no:

[Calabis]

Only a couple of guys have done that - LeBron and Wade, and they, believe it or not, do have some advantages over MJ. LeBron's a more dominant finisher(or was) and Wade's a better slasher. Given the limited ability of their perimeter games, they are also more willing to drive and play a higher % game. MJ was a lot more jump shot-oriented on the other hand. A higher volume shooter too. All of this would bring his efficiency down.

:wtf: I'm not sure if I really read this right

[Indian guy]

:wtf: I'm not sure if I really read this right

MJ's the GOAT, but he wasn't the best at everything, kid. 06-10 LeBron IS a better finisher than MJ and every other perimeter player in NBA history. 05-11 Wade is the quickest non-PG ever. Nobody's ever been able to get inside with his ease and consistency.

[Calabis]

Those guys suck. Michael Jordan actually never guarded players even close to the level of dwayne wade, carmello anthony or lebron james. Or did he try to guard Nique and Bird, his best players, etc? If he did i'll post some stats of what they did to him :roll:

Yes Kobe has guarded the likes of Wade and James, yet he said the most difficult guy he ever had to guard was Reggie Miller...who was past his prime, please don't have me post the video, where he states this at his own camp for kids, plus Bowen guarded them all and we know what he said already

[Calabis]

MJ's the GOAT, but he wasn't the best at everything, kid. 06-10 LeBron IS a better finisher than MJ and every other perimeter player in NBA history. 05-11 Wade is the quickest non-PG ever. Nobody's ever been able to get inside with his ease and consistency.

Lol, I never said he's the best at everything, but how is Lebron a better finisher? U mean dunker at the rim...maybe, because I don't see how he is better than MJ at finishing....Jordan would dunk over you and then do layups Lebron could only dream about....if you said Lebron was a better passer, rebounder, scarier in the open court I would agree. And Wade's first step is not quicker than MJ's sorry that's just a fact....is Wade quicker side to side, yes, but explosion toward the rim...no....you must have never seen prime MJ, because young MJ drove to the basket like a madman

Edit: Sorry u do realize Wade plays in a era, where they have made it easier to get to the rim right?

One of the guys who helped design rule changes

NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

SJ: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

[I.R.Beast]

they played no defense in the 80s yes they were inflated.

[Psileas]

absolutely DISAGREE.

Kobe, Wade, Lebron all actually lack mid-range game. Kobe is doing better than wade & lebron scoring wise because of his bulk FGA & excellent FT % game NOT because of his mid-range game. If Kobe ever had MJ like mid-range game, his efficiency & FG% will seriously go up. but NO.
Wade is more slash & drive to the basket player. Kobe is more developed. Dunkin is the only one who had solid mid-range game. Iverson sucked at it. wade, lebron both have outside & drive to the basket game unlike kobe.

Kobe has ave inside game around the basket. Wade & lebron are much better around the basket. specially LBJ. Kobe is better at outside game because of the post up game he got. Wade doesnt. LBJ is very ave at it.

Uh, wrong.
Thanks to bball-ref, now we have charts that show FG%'s of every player since 2001, browsed by range.
First of all, I don't remember mentioning LeBron, so I'll leave him out, neither did I mention Iverson (who's "Dunkin", btw?).
Going by the ones I mentioned:

FG%'s

2002 Jordan:
10 to 15 ft: 41.9
16 ft to 3-pt: 40.9

2003 Jordan:

10 to 15 ft: 43.9
16 ft to 3-pt: 42.4

2010 Carmelo:

10 to 15 ft: 44.6
16 ft to 3-pt: 40.2

2011 Carmelo:

10 to 15 ft: 34.7
16 ft to 3-pt: 43.2

2007 Wade:

10 to 15 ft: 42.3
16 ft to 3-pt: 37.8

2008 Wade:

10 to 15 ft: 40.6
16 ft to 3-pt: 36.8

2009 Wade

10 to 15 ft: 44.0
16 ft to 3-pt: 41.9

And now, Kobe:

2001:

10 to 15 ft: 45.9
16 ft to 3-pt: 40.6

2002:

10 to 15 ft: 44.3
16 ft to 3-pt: 38.7

2003:

10 to 15 ft: 37.3
16 ft to 3-pt: 41.1

2 low seasons followed, and then got back:

2006:

10 to 15 ft: 45.5
16 ft to 3-pt: 41.9

2007:

10 to 15 ft: 48.1
16 ft to 3-pt: 42.5

2008:

10 to 15 ft: 45.2
16 ft to 3-pt: 38.4

2009:

10 to 15 ft: 44.9
16 ft to 3-pt: 43.4

2010:

10 to 15 ft: 48.1
16 ft to 3-pt: 43.1

2011:

10 to 15 ft: 51.2 (!)
16 ft to 3-pt: 37.4

This season, he's at 41.5 and 42.4, respectively.
Like I said, Kobe usually kills from mid-range. After all, throughout his career, he would drive to the basket less than the rest of the players I mentioned, except Anthony.


MJ has the best inside game around the basket in the history of NBA. nobody is even close besides Wilt & Kareem & Shaq.

MJ has the best mid-range game in NBA history. Hakeem, kareem, Bird probably comes close.

And despite all this, he's never come close to leading the league in FG% even once. Maybe because you forgot to put his playing position into context. Sorry, but I'll take most high scoring bigs over Jordan when it comes to playing close to the basket, as well as Adrian Dantley. There are also lots and lots of mid-range shooters that you forgot (again, Hakeem and Kareem were great for their positions, but nowhere near the absolute greatest ) and could give Jordan a run for his money when it comes to mid-range game, like West, English, King, Gervin, Greer, McAdoo, Robertson, Sam Jones, prime Magic, Toney, Rick Barry, Havlicek, Kobe (as I've shown before) etc. Not all of them were super high scorers of course, but the ones who weren't took mid-range shots at a higher frequency than Jordan. For example, Greer "only" averaged 20-24 ppg in his prime, but he relied on his mid-range game more than Jordan, who also drove a lot.


Kobe, wade, Lebron should not even be mentioned in same breath as MJ regarding mid-range game. Especially Kobe who shoots 45% FG%. His shot selections is poor thus his efficiency is poor & cannot get inside the paint area at will like MJ did.

Ironically, this is exactly the reason why Kobe "only" shoots 44-46% FG. Because he took lots and lots of mid and long range shots. The reason Kobe shot 44-46% establishes him as one of the all-time great mid-range shooters.


MJ easily 40+ ppg scorer in today's soft NBA league in his peak bulk scoring years. (Deadly inside game + Best mid-range game in NBA history + excellent handles + extra large hand size + incredible stamina + empty paint area & no big men)

too easy

I say MJ ave 40+/7/7 for first 6 yrs of his career. then slow down


Random numbers. What are you going to tell me next, maybe that's he's going to benefit from perimeter friendly rules defensively, as well?


BTW, MJ already had 7-8 pts difference as scoring leader in 1987 when he ave 37.1. Dominique was close 2nd with 29 ppg in 1987 if I am correct

so dont be surprise if 9-10 ppg scoring difference btw MJ & kobe/wade/LBJ with perimeter friendly rules

I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled maybe something like a 5-6 ppg margin over the best of the rest for 1-2 seasons. But 9-10 ppg for practically a whole decade? Please...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Only a couple of guys have done that - LeBron and Wade, and they, believe it or not, do have some advantages over MJ. LeBron's a more dominant finisher(or was) and Wade's a better slasher

Lebron is not a better finisher than Jordan was. Wade might be a slightly better slasher, but only in certain situations (i.e., changing directions). Before the 82games.com pages stopped working, I saw (and posted in a topic on here that I'm trying to find for accurate numbers) that '03 Jordan at 40 years old was finishing something like...

EDIT: Never mind, found it:


Just as an aside, I happened to be looking at MJ's 2003 season stats on 82games.com and noticed that he was finishing 64% of his "inside" shots and 60+% of his "close" shots...at age 40. Compare that to Wade this year, who is finishing on 64% of his "inside" shots and 59+% for "close" shots (of course, Wade's number of attempts inside/close is much higher, so it isn't apples to apples). This, despite 2003 MJ playing in a league where it was harder to get into the lane or get a good look off inside (handchecking allows defenders to angle offensive players into worse shots), and a league where there were more/better shotblockers and a more crowded lane (no 3-second rule leaving the paint wide open as it is many times nowadays), as well as being on bum knees with little lift.

What this tells me is that prime Jordan (age 24-30) must have been a MONSTROUSLY good finisher inside (not that we didn't know, but still). I would LOVE to see his interior completion percentage from '87-'93.

23-30 year old Jordan's conversion % inside must have been astronomical, and under the same conditions players today face it would be even higher (far fewer shotblocking bigs, less crowded lane, harder to angle guys off into bad angles on their drive due to no handchecking, far more likely to get a foul call which won't be reflected in their FGA if they miss - only their makes are counted etc.).


Given the limited ability of their perimeter games, they are also more willing to drive and play a higher % game. MJ was a lot more jump shot-oriented on the other hand. A higher volume shooter too. All of this would bring his efficiency down.

Jordan's better perimeter game would open up his driving game more today, especially due to no handchecking. Honestly, the disallowance of physicality on the perimeter would, I think, change the entire dynamic of Jordan's game, as it has changed it for every other star. Guys would HAVE to commit to one way of playing him more so than they did (back then guys could have a hand on him and maintain contact enough to have a chance of staying in front of him, but still be close enough to contest his jumper. Now they'd either have to play closer to contest the J and get blown by for easy finishes or play further off him and die by his jumper (far better jumper inside 22 feet than Lebron or Wade, and better than Kobe after MJ was age 27).