Should Dirk Nowitzki's move be illegal?

[iamgine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNpOvPtsMEI

Great move and all but should it be illegal? I mean creating separation with your knee..that's like throwing an elbow isnt it?

[eliteballer]

Its not different than guys using the offhand to clear space when dribbling

[outbreak]

How about Lebron's travel drives on like every single play he makes?

[iamgine]

Its not different than guys using the offhand to clear space when dribbling
That's not throwing an elbow though.

[bdreason]

Totally illegal.

[Crystallas]

Hitting a player should be illegal regardless of the limb used. That, however, is, nor should it be illegal. You can't enforce a rule that has a player raising their leg. :smh:

Unless you like nanny crybaby-excuses basketball.

[fos]

Probably should just make Dirk Nowitzki illegal, he's too good. :rockon:

[Nick Young]

Junk removed

[Dbrog]

Well...the thing about his shot is he's fading away. He has a right to his space and clearly has learned to utilize this to the fullest. How can it be an offensive foul if contact only occurs due to the defensive player invading established space? It's a very clean shot...granted...very difficult.

[gtfomyface]

ehh it's more like putting his knee there to create spacing, he's not really kneeing him, it looks like the defender is leaning into the knee

[ILLsmak]

How could that possibly be illegal? lol

-Smak

[blacknapalm]

ehh it's more like putting his knee there to create spacing, he's not really kneeing him, it looks like the defender is leaning into the knee

this. that move does make it so he's virtually impossible to block though. guys D him up good but he still hits it. must be frustrating for defenders. it's hard enough he's 7 foot, lol. if you try to double, he can see it coming and pass

[iamgine]

Well...the thing about his shot is he's fading away. He has a right to his space and clearly has learned to utilize this to the fullest. How can it be an offensive foul if contact only occurs due to the defensive player invading established space? It's a very clean shot...granted...very difficult.
Hmm, in that sense elbows and knees can be used to set a pick too.

[dirkdiggler41]

this. that move does make it so he's virtually impossible to block though. guys D him up good but he still hits it. must be frustrating for defenders. it's hard enough he's 7 foot, lol. if you try to double, he can see it coming and pass

When a player is able to do a shot like that, there is really no defense that can stop the shot. It's a very hard shot to begin with, he goes up with just the force from one leg while fading away and banking it in. Now you want to remove the little seperation he got? Turk actully got pretty close to him, but not close enough to his face.

[iamgine]

When a player is able to do a shot like that, there is really no defense that can stop the shot. It's a very hard shot to begin with, he goes up with just the force from one leg while fading away and banking it in. Now you want to remove the little seperation he got? Turk actully got pretty close to him, but not close enough to his face.
it's a hard and skillful shot indeed.

[Myth]

Pushing a player back would be a foul, but just having it there to create space is fine. It is like using your off hand when taking a shot. If you push the defender back, it is a foul, but not if it is just extended.

[kNIOKAS]

Yes
and also Shaq's career should be illegal.

[dunksby]

LMAO someone is M.A.D

[iamgine]

Pushing a player back would be a foul, but just having it there to create space is fine. It is like using your off hand when taking a shot. If you push the defender back, it is a foul, but not if it is just extended.
I think it's not the same because when dribbling you don't elbow your defender.

It's more like setting a pick with elbow and knee.

[kentatm]

http://i44.tinypic.com/29w97ap.jpg
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/196603/tumblr_llq3xsgnze1qiaw26o1_400.png

[Punpun]

Be a man and go in if you want to block his shot. Too bad by the time you get in, the ball will already be in the air.

[NBAller]

That dude's a champion. Deal with it.

[stephanieg]

Karl Malone made a career of leading his drives with his knee.

[I<3NBA]

should idiots on ISH be illegal? :confusedshrug:

i think so.

[ralph_i_el]

should idiots on ISH be illegal? :confusedshrug:

i think so.

qft

it's not like dirk is kicking people or anything. If anything Dirk hasn't been getting as many fouls as usual on that shot this year. They're letting people make more contact with him

[Xover]

EDIT: posted in wrong thread my bad

[OldSchoolBBall]

I personally believe that ANY move where the offensive player moves a part of their body into space that the defender's body or limbs are ALREADY occupying should be an offensive foul. This would apply to the common "swing through" move used by Durant/Kobe et al. If Dirk is kicking hi leg up INTO the space the defender already occupies, or into their legs WHERE THEY ALREADY OCCUPY, it should be an offensive foul. However, if Dirk fades and raises the leg into open air, and the defender then just can't close the distance because the leg is there, then that's fine (and if they then hit Dirk's lg it should be a defensive foul). Basically, whoever (defensive player or offensive player) occupies a position first owns that position and is entitled to it.

[iamgine]

Bu
I personally believe that ANY move where the offensive player moves a part of their body into space that the defender's body or limbs are ALREADY occupying should be an offensive foul. This would apply to the common "swing through" move used by Durant/Kobe et al. If Dirk is kicking hi leg up INTO the space the defender already occupies, or into their legs WHERE THEY ALREADY OCCUPY, it should be an offensive foul. However, if Dirk fades and raises the leg into open air, and the defender then just can't close the distance because the leg is there, then that's fine (and if they then hit Dirk's lg it should be a defensive foul). Basically, whoever (defensive player or offensive player) occupies a position first owns that position and is entitled to it.
But that would be similar to setting a pick with elbow and knee.

[ILLsmak]

Yes
and also Shaq's career should be illegal.

That's bullshit.

Anyone who is a real big knows Shaq's game is as fundamental as it comes. You used to be able to pivot and elbow people in the face. And you still should IMO. Not to swing your elbows, but if someone has their face in there... **** 'em. That's something you learn really early if you are ever in the paint.

Shaq actually had to ease up on a lot of people because otherwise he would just knock them over with one bump.

And with Dirk... I can't believe anyone would say that is illegal. That's his shot. He'd be taking that shot if no one was on him so now suddenly if someone is close enough that his knee touches them that it's an offensive foul? Ridiculous.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

I personally believe that ANY move where the offensive player moves a part of their body into space that the defender's body or limbs are ALREADY occupying should be an offensive foul. This would apply to the common "swing through" move used by Durant/Kobe et al. If Dirk is kicking hi leg up INTO the space the defender already occupies, or into their legs WHERE THEY ALREADY OCCUPY, it should be an offensive foul. However, if Dirk fades and raises the leg into open air, and the defender then just can't close the distance because the leg is there, then that's fine (and if they then hit Dirk's lg it should be a defensive foul). Basically, whoever (defensive player or offensive player) occupies a position first owns that position and is entitled to it.


Should you be able to put your arms out while guarding someone and if they drive into them is that not a foul? Or what about your leg, and they trip.

I agree with body position, but not limbs because it's so hard to tell who really had the position first or was entitled to it.

Like in that video, Dirk was making his move before that guy pushed up on him. Who had the right to that space? I say no one; no foul. Nice shot.

-Smak

[SlayerEnraged]

i think it should be illegal cause u can't get close enough to block the shot and when u go through it, nowitzki always leans in and gets the foul called.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

If he ever knees a guy in the balls, then it will be.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Should you be able to put your arms out while guarding someone and if they drive into them is that not a foul? Or what about your leg, and they trip.

I agree with body position, but not limbs because it's so hard to tell who really had the position first or was entitled to it.

Like in that video, Dirk was making his move before that guy pushed up on him. Who had the right to that space? I say no one; no foul. Nice shot.

-Smak

Good point (the other guy on the previous page made a similar point too). I clearly didn't think this through enough, though a quick fix would be to have that only apply on or during shot attempts, not in any non-shooting situation (e.g., pick and rolls, penetration etc.).

[Phenith]

It's actually a brilliant fade away.
He steps back and puts his knee up on his shot ensuring that his defender can't get to him.

He didn't use the knee to create the space, just used it to stop the defense from getting close enough to disrupt his shot.

[boxclever]

It's actually a brilliant fade away.
He steps back and puts his knee up on his shot ensuring that his defender can't get to him.

He didn't use the knee to create the space, just used it to stop the defense from getting close enough to disrupt his shot.
qft, it's just a great move from Dirk, nothing illegal about it in my eyes

[LJJ]

i think it should be illegal cause u can't get close enough to block the shot

Yup.

In the same vain, Derrick Rose jumping so god damned high should be made illegal too. The defender can't get close enough to block the shot because of it!

[SlayerEnraged]

Yup.

In the same vain, Derrick Rose jumping so god damned high should be made illegal too. The defender can't get close enough to block the shot because of it!

ya but in a sense, players can try and block roses shot. Dirks leg kick physically prevents u from getting close to it. I watched the mavs destroy my lakers last year and a big reason was because of that particular move. He makes it most of the time and when u try to go through it he leans in and usually gets bailed out by the refs.

[pmj]

No one mentions Harden's driving "swing-through" (or really "swing-into")? It's just as bad as anything else imo.

To the OP's question, no, it shouldn't be illegal. That's like saying you can no longer jump off one leg with you knee up. It's just natural for the knee to come up.

[DStebb716]

Stupid ass post. He doesn't drive his knee into him, he just puts it out there. That's like putting your arm out there but not pushing off or anything and calling that illegal everytime.

[Meticode]

No, that move should not be called a foul. It's fine the way it is.

[Artillery]

Only annoying thing about Dirk is how the refs all too often call FTs for him when there's hardly any contact from the defender. Happened a few nights ago against the Rockets. Same goes for Durant. You can't even breathe on these two without being whistled for a foul.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Only annoying thing about Dirk is how the refs all too often call FTs for him when there's hardly any contact from the defender. Happened a few nights ago against the Rockets. Same goes for Durant. You can't even breathe on these two without being whistled for a foul.

They're making up for the 4-5 years ('04-'09) when Dirk was the MOST hacked player in the league without getting calls along with Yao Ming. Other players were feasting on FT's but Dirk was getting mugged all game every game and couldn't buy FT's during that span.

[Mavsfan31]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

Only annoying thing about Dirk is how the refs all too often call FTs for him when there's hardly any contact from the defender. Happened a few nights ago against the Rockets. Same goes for Durant. You can't even breathe on these two without being whistled for a foul.

Dirk really doesn't get that many calls actually. The level of physicality that defenders are allowed to play on him is something very few superstars face.

And its not just when he has the ball. Defenders bump, grab, and hold the hell out of him because once he catches it...its trouble.

Kobe and Wade get the most BS calls in the league in my opinion.

[Rolando]

It is just a perfect move, a signature move. Just like the skyhook by Kareem. Did anyone complain about Kareem sticking his left elbow out to keep space. No.

Old School Ball had it right. The space was there, un-occupied, then Dirk takes it and there's nothing anyone can do about it: Unstoppable, signature move.:bowdown: :rockon: :cheers: :facepalm :eek: :facepalm :no: :cheers: :wtf:

[creepingdeath]

Dirk really doesn't get that many calls actually. The level of physicality that defenders are allowed to play on him is something very few superstars face.

And its not just when he has the ball. Defenders bump, grab, and hold the hell out of him because once he catches it...its trouble.

Kobe and Wade get the most BS calls in the league in my opinion.
Kobe? Not so much anymore, imho. He still gets the superstar treatment, but not in an unusual or extreme way. But KD is up there.

[BarberSchool]

http://i44.tinypic.com/29w97ap.jpgWe have some serious haters on this board. That is one of the more impossibly complex, difficult, awkward game winning shots I've seen in years.

[BarberSchool]

It's actually a brilliant fade away.
He steps back and puts his knee up on his shot ensuring that his defender can't get to him.

He didn't use the knee to create the space, just used it to stop the defense from getting close enough to disrupt his shot.Exactly.
It's only an offensive foul if the force is used to move the defender backwards, not maintain one's own space. And to be perfectly fair, Nowitzki isn't even maintaining his established space, he is falling backwards out of his own created space, using the knee for momentum upwards as well as to seal his own falling personal space.

Shaq used to use his tricep and elbow to actively dislodge stationary defenders, and move defenders backwards. Jabbar used to use his off arm to seal defenders away from his towering sky hook. Every great fadeaway shooter used their legs to keep some space while in the air. Jordan, Kobe, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen all used their legs extensively. In the 2006 NBA Finals, Dwyane Wade put his leg out to get numerous phantom calls on jumpshots, including one where Josh Howard literally made zero contact on a bank shot from wade on the opposite side of the floor to Dirk's Game Winner, and it resulted in an AND-1.

Point being, anyone who criticizes Nowitzki for his patented unstoppable move, yet gives full credit to Shaq, Jabbar, Jordan, Kobe, Wade or anyone else doing the same thing in an equal or even more agressive manner is an utter hypocrite.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

If a player guarding Dirk while he nails that move gets injured and has to sit out the next game for a DNP - self-esteem, then yeah, make it illegal.

Until then, though...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jabbar used to use his off arm to seal defenders away from his towering sky hook.

Very true. You can see this in a number of highlights, and without giving it too much thought, I'm not sure how it's any different than what Dirk did.

[iamgine]

Exactly.
It's only an offensive foul if the force is used to move the defender backwards, not maintain one's own space. And to be perfectly fair, Nowitzki isn't even maintaining his established space, he is falling backwards out of his own created space, using the knee for momentum upwards as well as to seal his own falling personal space.

Shaq used to use his tricep and elbow to actively dislodge stationary defenders, and move defenders backwards. Jabbar used to use his off arm to seal defenders away from his towering sky hook. Every great fadeaway shooter used their legs to keep some space while in the air. Jordan, Kobe, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen all used their legs extensively. In the 2006 NBA Finals, Dwyane Wade put his leg out to get numerous phantom calls on jumpshots, including one where Josh Howard literally made zero contact on a bank shot from wade on the opposite side of the floor to Dirk's Game Winner, and it resulted in an AND-1.

Point being, anyone who criticizes Nowitzki for his patented unstoppable move, yet gives full credit to Shaq, Jabbar, Jordan, Kobe, Wade or anyone else doing the same thing in an equal or even more agressive manner is an utter hypocrite.
Off arm isn't equal to elbow or knee.

When setting a screen or taking a charge, you can use your arm to block the incoming opponent, but not your elbow or knee. Same principle.