**NEW VIDEO** Chamberlain in his twilight (Lakers Wilt)

[CavaliersFTW]

This weekend I tapped into my NBA vintage films archive searching for clips of old-man Wilt in his Laker years. Much of this footage has probably not been seen by most of you. Whether it becomes a subject for bashing or not I still figured I should share it lol, Enjoy!

http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

[305Baller]

This weekend I tapped into my NBA vintage films archive searching for clips of old-man Wilt in his Laker years. Much of this footage has probably not been seen by most of you. Whether it becomes a subject for bashing or not I still figured I should share it lol, Enjoy!

http://youtu.be/nCx2ku0HW6Y

it says video is currently being processed??

[CavaliersFTW]

it says video is currently being processed??

Sry, 2 more minutes is youtubes estimate until ready - I just uploaded it I forgot it has to process

[Legends66NBA7]

This video is currently being processed.

Come on....:(... almost there....

[CavaliersFTW]

should be working now

[Legends66NBA7]

should be working now

:cheers:

[305Baller]

that... was... awesome...

I believe!!

[SFMF]

best Wilt highlights I've seen. jlauber is probably too wet to type comments

[jstern]

Had to use the post quick reply.

That was pretty interesting, especially when Jabbar came into the picture.

Why does Wilt jump with his knees out, like in that jumpball with Kareem?

[LAClipsFan33]

:applause:

[Vienceslav]

Wow that was cool seeing KAJ and Wilt go at it.
Thanks for posting.

[ImmortalNemesis]

Thanks man that was awesome to watch. A lot of those blocks were goal tending. :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

The clips are in chronological order too. As a reference point, everything after 1 minute is after Wilt's knee surgery in 1970. And 1:55-2:35 is his epic dogfight with Kareem in the 1971 playoffs. The footage ends with the 1972 Playoffs (not game 5 of the finals though, that still needs added). I've only gotten about half way through all of his Laker footage, so this is just an early draft - final mix will be about twice as long.

[senelcoolidge]

Wow, great video. Wilt as an older player was still incredible. He's one of the few players that could dominate in any era. One of a kind.

[Round Mound]

:bowdown:

[reppy]

Thanks for the video. It seems like a lot of stuff I see replayed in highlights is running at half the speed. But from this you can really see the speed of the game back then.

[WillC]

I love these videos. Thanks for uploading/sharing.

This double block on Bill Russell is incredible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nCx2ku0HW6Y#t=45s

[Living Being]

old Wilt > Shaq

[alenleomessi]

hasheem thabeet of the 60s

[LosBulls]

Dwight would shit on him.

[Asukal]

Truly a remarkable player... respect. :bowdown:

Gaylauber is still a piece of shit though... :roll:

[Pushxx]

The fast speed literally made me dizzy and kinda ruined it. :(

[CavaliersFTW]

The fast speed literally made me dizzy and kinda ruined it. :(

I fixed it with a new upload - My FPS was getting dropped in the preview of my editor, which messed up my judgement of how fast things should be. I uploaded a new version where it's corrected, and replaced the link.

http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

here see if that looks better

[CavaliersFTW]

Dwight would shit on him.

...Not sure if serious

[cteach111]

great video. Wilt was a heck of a player..

[millwad]

Great video, really enjoyed it!

But you messed up a little with the speed, it was obvious it was speeded up some. It would be cool to see that video in normal speed! :cheers:

Overall it was great though, and I like how you portrayed the battle between Wilt and Kareem, really cool!

God job! :banana:

[millwad]

I fixed it with a new upload - My FPS was getting dropped in the preview of my editor, which messed up my judgement of how fast things should be. I uploaded a new version where it's corrected, and replaced the link.

http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

here see if that looks better

Why not just let the speed be like the original footage? Speeding it up just looks odd considering that the game already was uptempo, I know that some people on youtue who make highlight-videos speed their videos up so the players they portray will look more spectacular but that's just wrong and it looks weird.

But still, easily the best Wilt highlight video I've seen. :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

caption at 1:17

"Now Wilt you know it was just an accident that I made a wrestling move by grabbing you around the waist and wrapping up your arm and then hit you in the face while you were shooting. That was all just an accident, Wilt, don't hold it against me that I cold cocked your head, you're such a great guy old buddy old pal"


I like the idea of frame correction & maybe deblotching algorithms? dunno i've only read tiny fragments about that stuff... to me the speed is a bit too fast, makes it look unnatural... but no knock on the idea or the content!!

[OldSchoolBBall]

70's Wilt looks insanely powerful. I still don't think he'd be as effectively strong as prime Shaq in a game setting because he has longer legs and a higher center of gravity, but look how SOLID he looks at the 10-12 second mark. Beast.

His vertical wasn't that impressive, but he WAS 32-36 years old in these clips, so we should keep that in mind. His quick jumping ability for blocks was great.

[CavaliersFTW]

caption at 1:17

"Now Wilt you know it was just an accident that I made a wrestling move by grabbing you around the waist and wrapping up your arm and then hit you in the face while you were shooting. That was all just an accident, Wilt, don't hold it against me that I cold cocked your head, you're such a great guy old buddy old pal"


I like the idea of frame correction & maybe deblotching algorithms? dunno i've only read tiny fragments about that stuff... to me the speed is a bit too fast, makes it look unnatural... but no knock on the idea or the content!!

The speed is real-time now, I made an error in the editing software first time through, watch again, updated version:

http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

[Vienceslav]

Post more as soon as possible.:rockon:

[CavaliersFTW]

70's Wilt looks insanely powerful. I still don't think he'd be as effectively strong as prime Shaq in a game setting because he has longer legs and a higher center of gravity, but look how SOLID he looks at the 10-12 second mark. Beast.

His vertical wasn't that impressive, but he WAS 32-36 years old in these clips, so we should keep that in mind. His quick jumping ability for blocks was great.

In LA Laker form he's the 2nd heaviest player of all time. Only 2nd to Shaq. And much of Shaq's 325-350lbs (prime) was fat. Wilt's 300+ was lean body mass, - def very solid. Check his beastly explosion and dunk at the 1:19 mark.

[Pointguard]

Great work!!! I didn't know you were DantheMan so I have to double up on the praise.

The quickness of a Wilt jumping on that double block of Russell (@ the 45 second mark) is crazy.

Kareem gets the better of him in the video, boooooooooo :lol Great work tho. The clarity is outstanding - among the best I've seen of Wilt. A lot of times, the quality is so bad Wilt doesn't look as big as he does here.

Cav, who is the big guy that looks like Gilmore on the Knicks? I thought it was Gilmore.

[LoneyROY7]

In LA Laker form he's the 2nd heaviest player of all time. Only 2nd to Shaq. And much of Shaq's 325-350lbs (prime) was fat. Wilt's 300+ was lean body mass, - def very solid. Check his beastly explosion and dunk at the 1:19 mark.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0116/9341/lg_shaq_ap_01_feature.jpg

Prime Shaq would maul Wilt at any time in his career.

[Pointguard]

70's Wilt looks insanely powerful. I still don't think he'd be as effectively strong as prime Shaq in a game setting because he has longer legs and a higher center of gravity, but look how SOLID he looks at the 10-12 second mark. Beast.

His vertical wasn't that impressive, but he WAS 32-36 years old in these clips, so we should keep that in mind. His quick jumping ability for blocks was great.

He was 33+ in these videos, I believe? But DantheMan has other videos with his vertical being very impressive. You don't get the sky hook without height, timing and quickness afoot. But at 33+ and the seasons they had, by comparison this season was a lot easier than the way they had it then, and nobody has played outstanding or even consistently this year, so his bounce is amazing.

[Pointguard]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0116/9341/lg_shaq_ap_01_feature.jpg

Prime Shaq would maul Wilt at any time in his career.
Shaq was a mauler. But I do think Wilt was always the better shot blocker, rebounder and defensive player. And at times a superior scorer as well.

[CavaliersFTW]

Great work!!! I didn't know you were DantheMan so I have to double up on the praise.

The quickness of a Wilt jumping on that double block of Russell (@ the 45 second mark) is crazy.

Kareem gets the better of him in the video, boooooooooo :lol Great work tho. The clarity is outstanding - among the best I've seen of Wilt. A lot of times, the quality is so bad Wilt doesn't look as big as he does here.

Cav, who is the big guy that looks like Gilmore on the Knicks? I thought it was Gilmore.

The footage might seem that way but it isn't the case for that particular series that it comes from - Kareem took such a beating from Wilt - to the extent that Wilt receive a several minutes long standing ovation at the end of the series from spectacle he put on in front of the Milwaukee Bucks crowd. Absolutely no one in the NBA was capable of playing MVP King Lew one-on-one like that. Alcindor was effectively erased that series because Wilt matched him in points, destroyed his fg%, outrebounded him, and blocked numerous amounts of his shots.

The Knick is HOF'er Willis Reed

[Pointguard]

The footage might seem that way but it isn't the case for that particular series that it comes from - Kareem took such a beating from Wilt - to the extent that Wilt receive a several minutes long standing ovation at the end of the series from spectacle he put on in front of the Milwaukee Bucks crowd. Absolutely no one in the NBA was capable of playing MVP King Lew one-on-one like that. Alcindor was effectively erased that series because Wilt matched him in points, destroyed his fg%, outrebounded him, and blocked numerous amounts of his shots.

The Knick is HOF'er Willis Reed
Sorry D, I wasn't clear at the 1:44 mark his number is 17. I've talked to Willis Reed on numerous occasions.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0116/9341/lg_shaq_ap_01_feature.jpg

Prime Shaq would maul Wilt at any time in his career.

Shaq never faced anyone close to the physical specimen Wilt was. Watch the video of Shaq's first game vs Yao Ming. Then compare Yao Ming to Wilt. Yao put Shaq in a momentary shell-shock because he was one of the first guys Shaq ever faced that was physically almost as massive as he was. Wilt compared to Yao, is heavier, longer in wingspan, reaches just as high standing flat footed, is much stronger, and has an explosion on par with Shaq, plus a better double-jump. I don't know the outcome of what a matchup would be, it would be epic as all hell. But It's idiotic to write Wilt off with a "Shaq would maul him" Comment. Shaq - as a physical specimen - could even be argued as a poor man's Wilt, like what Kobe is to Jordan. Shorter, less reach, less wingspan, similar strength, less well conditioned, worse stamina etc etc. However it isn't all one-sided because Shaq's could really throw his weight around and was just as explosive. He's a more stable platform with a lower C-O-G. So ultimately, as physical specimens, we're literally talking about Man O' War vs Secretariat shit. Just plain epic. And neither of them has ever faced physical equals in their NBA careers, because apart from each other - there is nobody that comes close to their combo of size and agility.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In LA Laker form he's the 2nd heaviest player of all time. Only 2nd to Shaq. And much of Shaq's 325-350lbs (prime) was fat. Wilt's 300+ was lean body mass, - def very solid. Check his beastly explosion and dunk at the 1:19 mark.

I think Sabonis was upwards of 300 pounds too.

[Pointguard]

Shaq never faced anyone even remotely as close to the physical specimen Wilt was. Watch the video of Shaq's first game vs Yao Ming. Then compare Yao Ming to Wilt. Yao put Shaq in a momentary shell-shock because he was one of the first guys Shaq ever faced that was physically almost as massive as he was. Wilt compared to Yao, is heavier, longer in wingspan, reaches just as high standing flat footed, is much stronger, and has an explosion on par with Shaq, plus a better double-jump. I don't know the outcome of what a matchup would be, it would be epic as all hell. But It's idiotic to write Wilt off with a "Shaq would maul him" Comment. Shaq - as a physical specimen - is a poor man's Wilt. Shorter, less reach, less wingspan, similar strength, less well conditioned, etc etc. The only edge he's got is his weight, and his lower C-O-G. We're literally talking about Man O' War vs Secretariat shit as far as physical specimens is concerned. Neither has ever faced a physical equal.
Wilt did play against Gilmore sobeit in an all star game. Wilt dominated him and Wilt wasn't in his prime. Robert Parish who played against Shaq and Gilmore said Gilmore was the strongest player he played against. Take into account a young Parish was more impressionable in his early 20's. Just food for thought, not meant to be an answer for anything.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think Sabonis was upwards of 300 pounds too.

275 in his prime IIRC, 290ish in his old-man NBA form. Wilt was 292 in his 4th season though. Bynum, Yao, older Sabonis, and the older Gilmore are the next closest individuals in body mass in comparison to Wilt - Wilt trails only Shaq. Shaq's bulk has a comfortable margin though. I think Wilt was ~315 max in the NBA. Shaq was as high as 368 (really out of shape at the time) but he actually played in relatively good shape, regularly, at 350.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt did play against Gilmore sobeit in an all star game. Wilt dominated him and Wilt wasn't in his prime. Robert Parish who played against Shaq and Gilmore said Gilmore was the strongest player he played against. Take into account a young Parish was more impressionable in his early 20's. Just food for thought, not meant to be an answer for anything.

True but to be fair Gilmore was about 245lbs at the time of the '72 All-Star game. Gilmore shot up to about 265 in the late 70's and 275 in the early 80's which is prob the time frame when Parish got the most definitive impression of Gilmore's strength.

[Owl]

Sorry D, I wasn't clear at the 1:44 mark his number is 17. I've talked to Willis Reed on numerous occasions.
Number 17 is presumably Nate Bowman http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1970.html

In LA Laker form he's the 2nd heaviest player of all time. Only 2nd to Shaq. And much of Shaq's 325-350lbs (prime) was fat. Wilt's 300+ was lean body mass, - def very solid. Check his beastly explosion and dunk at the 1:19 mark.
There have been guys as heavy/heavier than Wilt just not significant players and not of the same build. I assume this was what you meant. Examples would include Thomas Hamilton, Oliver Miller, John "Hot Plate" Williams, Jahidi White, Josh Moore (Brad Millard/Kenny George were projected as NBA players but for injuries/illnesses too). I think there are others in that ballpark.

Anyway great vid.

[Gotterdammerung]

Righteous YouTube clip. Loved the classic matchup vs Abdul Jabbar.

Anyone ever see game footage of Chamberlain's last great game, Game 6 in 1970 Finals where he scored 45 and pulled down 27 boards? Seems like the NBA doesn't have it or never released it for some reason. :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

On the Wilt/Shaq as biggest player thing I just wanna mention one name...Priest Lauderdale. I saw him in person in Atlanta. He was a monster. Listed 7'4'' 325 but he was probably 350 or so.

And I always found it funny when people claimed Shaq would murder Wilt. Its as if...Shaq didnt play and not murder smaller and far less capable defenders than Wilt many many many times. Ive seen Brian Grant hold Shaq in check. Ive seen Zo play Shaq roughly as an equal and he was 4 inches shorter than Wilt, 40-60 pounds lighter at times, with a shorter or similar wingspan and not too much lift by his prime. He was a good athlete but hardly jumping out the gym. Shaq can have 18 point games guarded by Bigdog Carr and Adam Keefe but hes just gonna murder Wilt chamberlain....

No matter the outcome it would be a good matchup to see. At most shaq has played 3-4 guys who could put the kinda force back against him Wilt could and most were just massive and not nearly the athlete even wilts haters have to conclude he was.

He might drop 40. He might have 16. Probably somewhere in the middle. Good games. Bad. But if he can be held to 20 by 42 year old Robert Parish hes not about to just wipe the floor with Wilt because of size/strength.

He might score more than usual if only due to wanting to prove himself vs Wilt(As Kareem did...and he would tell you himself). But hes not gonna just dominate him. Shaq was contained by far less imposing players than Wilt plenty of times.

A no special motivation matchup between the two might end in 24 points for shaq and nothing to make Wilt look bad. Shaq had 15-18 point games guarded by people who dont belong on the floor with either him or Wilt.

[Pointguard]

Number 17 is presumably Nate Bowman http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1970.html

Thanks Owl. Job has a block on the site.

[Owl]

On the Wilt/Shaq as biggest player thing I just wanna mention one name...Priest Lauderdale. I saw him in person in Atlanta. He was a monster. Listed 7'4'' 325 but he was probably 350 or so.
Darn forgot him, called 343 lbs on draft night http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lntkKuiiUBg
Still not quite Hamilton size.
http://images.checkoutmycards.com/zoom-back/a4dfd794-6871-4019-810e-de52cd121137.jpg
Also I forgot Stanley Roberts amongst (previously unmentioned 300+lbs guys. Muresan was just above that theshold too but didn't mention him because his listed weight was only just over 300lbs.

[Pointguard]

On the Wilt/Shaq as biggest player thing I just wanna mention one name...Priest Lauderdale. I saw him in person in Atlanta. He was a monster. Listed 7'4'' 325 but he was probably 350 or so.

And I always found it funny when people claimed Shaq would murder Wilt. Its as if...Shaq didnt play and not murder smaller and far less capable defenders than Wilt many many many times. Ive seen Brian Grant hold Shaq in check. Ive seen Zo play Shaq roughly as an equal and he was 4 inches shorter than Wilt, 40-60 pounds lighter at times, with a shorter or similar wingspan and not too much lift by his prime. He was a good athlete but hardly jumping out the gym. Shaq can have 18 point games guarded by Bigdog Carr and Adam Keefe but hes just gonna murder Wilt chamberlain....

No matter the outcome it would be a good matchup to see. At most shaq has played 3-4 guys who could put the kinda force back against him Wilt could and most were just massive and not nearly the athlete even wilts haters have to conclude he was.

He might drop 40. He might have 16. Probably somewhere in the middle. Good games. Bad. But if he can be held to 20 by 42 year old Robert Parish hes not about to just wipe the floor with Wilt because of size/strength.

He might score more than usual if only due to wanting to prove himself vs Wilt(As Kareem did...and he would tell you himself). But hes not gonna just dominate him. Shaq was contained by far less imposing players than Wilt plenty of times.

A no special motivation matchup between the two might end in 24 points for shaq and nothing to make Wilt look bad. Shaq had 15-18 point games guarded by people who dont belong on the floor with either him or Wilt.
I seen Rodman do a very good job on Shaq. Forgot the year but can somebody put up Rodman's weight and true height.

Work has blocked my bball reference sites.

[Lebron23]

I seen Rodman do a very good job on Shaq. Forgot the year but can somebody put up Rodman's weight and true height.

Work has blocked my bball reference sites.


Rodman is 6'6.5" or 6'6" without shoes.

[Pointguard]

Darn forgot him, called 343 lbs on draft night http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lntkKuiiUBg
Still not quite Hamilton size.
http://images.checkoutmycards.com/zoom-back/a4dfd794-6871-4019-810e-de52cd121137.jpg
Also I forgot Stanley Roberts amongst (previously unmentioned 300+lbs guys. Muresan was just above that theshold too but didn't mention him because his listed weight was only just over 300lbs.
Priest is the biggest, no carrying fat guy you will probably ever see. He looks like he's in good shape.

[Owl]

Priest is the biggest, no carrying fat guy you will probably ever see. He looks like he's in good shape.
Kenny George wasn't fat and listed around 360lbs (and may still have been growing) but then he had an extra 3-5 inches on Priest. Brad Millard sometimes looks a little tubby and sometimes looks in pretty decent shape and was listed at 345 which I'd assume was his healthy weight. And Hamilton sure was a fatty. Priest or Kenny George would probably be the heaviest in shape player, though depends on how in shape and what Shaq really weighed all those years.

[Cowboy Thunder]

Great video. Gives me a lot more respect for Wilt. He was long and super athletic.

[Owl]

I seen Rodman do a very good job on Shaq. Forgot the year but can somebody put up Rodman's weight and true height.

Work has blocked my bball reference sites.
I'd take LeBron 23's word on Rodman's acual height (he's variously listed as 6'6, 6'7,6'8 at Wikipedia, Draftexpress and ESPN).

His weight is listed at 210 on draft express, bkb-ref, 220 on wiki and ESPN. Best guess is 210 is early/Detroit weight, 220 maybe Chicago era.

[CavaliersFTW]

Righteous YouTube clip. Loved the classic matchup vs Abdul Jabbar.

Anyone ever see game footage of Chamberlain's last great game, Game 6 in 1970 Finals where he scored 45 and pulled down 27 boards? Seems like the NBA doesn't have it or never released it for some reason. :confusedshrug:

I don't think the NBA has this secret archive of vintage footage like people think it does. 3/4 of the footage in that mix doesn't even belong to the NBA, and that's pretty much how it's always been. Footage that comes out of the woodwork of these past players has almost always been archived by other venues, like CBS or a specific team that did not get help from the NBA at the time to produce it. Occasionally the NBA will be lucky enough to get their hands on something that say - the New York Knicks franchise owned - and then claim mutual rights, but the collective NBA entity itself probably never had the resources and/or desire to store the stuff from that long ago in the first place. The NBA is a multimedia entertainment industry today, but it wasn't back then, they relied on other people to film their games or broadcast them. If they NBA had any epic games of Wilt, trust me, they wouldn't be hiding them in some mysterious archive

[Marv_Albert]

So you should when your THAT tall.

[ThaRegul8r]

On the Wilt/Shaq as biggest player thing I just wanna mention one name...Priest Lauderdale. I saw him in person in Atlanta. He was a monster. Listed 7'4'' 325 but he was probably 350 or so.

And I always found it funny when people claimed Shaq would murder Wilt. Its as if...Shaq didnt play and not murder smaller and far less capable defenders than Wilt many many many times. Ive seen Brian Grant hold Shaq in check. Ive seen Zo play Shaq roughly as an equal and he was 4 inches shorter than Wilt, 40-60 pounds lighter at times, with a shorter or similar wingspan and not too much lift by his prime. He was a good athlete but hardly jumping out the gym. Shaq can have 18 point games guarded by Bigdog Carr and Adam Keefe but hes just gonna murder Wilt chamberlain....

No matter the outcome it would be a good matchup to see. At most shaq has played 3-4 guys who could put the kinda force back against him Wilt could and most were just massive and not nearly the athlete even wilts haters have to conclude he was.

He might drop 40. He might have 16. Probably somewhere in the middle. Good games. Bad. But if he can be held to 20 by 42 year old Robert Parish hes not about to just wipe the floor with Wilt because of size/strength.

He might score more than usual if only due to wanting to prove himself vs Wilt(As Kareem did...and he would tell you himself). But hes not gonna just dominate him. Shaq was contained by far less imposing players than Wilt plenty of times.

A no special motivation matchup between the two might end in 24 points for shaq and nothing to make Wilt look bad. Shaq had 15-18 point games guarded by people who dont belong on the floor with either him or Wilt.

Availability heuristic. Everyone remembers the 40/20s, etc., so they act like Shaq did that every game, whereas the times Shaq had very ordinary games against players not in his league don't come to mind as readily. I remember reading (and I have some at home) articles wondering how it is that Shaq could be contained by some relative scrub, yet people act like Shaq would steamroll anyone in history put against him when he didn't do that to everyone he actually played. It's all one-sided recollection. (But then, a lot of people are guilty of this for whomever their favorite players happen to be.)

[CavaliersFTW]

Why not just let the speed be like the original footage? Speeding it up just looks odd considering that the game already was uptempo, I know that some people on youtue who make highlight-videos speed their videos up so the players they portray will look more spectacular but that's just wrong and it looks weird.

But still, easily the best Wilt highlight video I've seen. :applause:

Thanks, my videos are getting better, the Kareem battle seems to be a success with everyone so now I like the idea of showing him battling his opponents more evenly, so that he doesn't look like some invincible God - otherwise he's just some big dude dunking on helpless no-names :lol

And about the speed - I've grown to HATE the mid-late 1960's and 70's obsession with slow motion... Personal preference for me is that replays for any sport can be in slow motion in moderation. Entire 25 minute long documentaries though? I literally combed through 6 documentary films - hours of total footage - from that period that were made from 100% slow motion footage the entire time, and you never even get to see these players moving at normal speed even if only for a simple frame of reference. Slow motion might make a player look elegant, and has it's place in highlights, but due to the fact that pretty much 99 percent of Wilt's "interesting camera angle" footage as a Laker is in nothing but slow-motion somebody out there at some point (me) needed to show what those games actually looked at real-life speed. Everybody has recycled Laker Wilt footage in slow motion again and again and again lol - so I felt real-time-playback for the mix would be a refreshing change - at least for myself. It better illustrates power, he had some real rim rattling dunks in the footage that otherwise didn't have the same oomph in slow-motion

btw, I can't tell if your simply displeased that I removed the slow motion, or if your actually thinking that I sped the footage up beyond actual real-time.. because I didn't speed it up past real-life speed, that wasn't my intention - My aim is to show exactly how the cameraman or fans saw the game from the sidelines, nothing is sped up beyond correcting the boring speed of slow motion. I did get it wrong the first render, but I cringed when I saw it, and immediately corrected that problem asap (a few hours later) with the 2nd render - and I removed the first one entirely and replaced the link with the new one.

Watch it again, there's nothing in there that's beyond real-life speed:
http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

[millwad]

Wait, I can't believe that this thread has no essays a la Jlauber in it, is this real life? He probably fapped to death..

[Kblaze8855]

Ive noticed that. I made a 4-5 minute game action Willis Reed video I never posted(couldnt think of the right music and just forgot to get back to it) and it was almost all slow motion.

[Disaprine]

saved :applause:

[Pointguard]

I'd take LeBron 23's word on Rodman's acual height (he's variously listed as 6'6, 6'7,6'8 at Wikipedia, Draftexpress and ESPN).

His weight is listed at 210 on draft express, bkb-ref, 220 on wiki and ESPN. Best guess is 210 is early/Detroit weight, 220 maybe Chicago era.
Thanks Lebron 23 and Owl. 220 lbs is amazing. He was 100lbs lighter than Shaq and consistently blocking him out and denying him a strong post presence. That's freakish. But he had real strength as he was the only one that could really battle Malone as well.

[kileer7]

Excellent post.

[Pointguard]

I don't think the NBA has this secret archive of vintage footage like people think it does. 3/4 of the footage in that mix doesn't even belong to the NBA, and that's pretty much how it's always been. Footage that comes out of the woodwork of these past players has almost always been archived by other venues, like CBS or a specific team that did not get help from the NBA at the time to produce it. Occasionally the NBA will be lucky enough to get their hands on something that say - the New York Knicks franchise owned - and then claim mutual rights, but the collective NBA entity itself probably never had the resources and/or desire to store the stuff from that long ago in the first place. The NBA is a multimedia entertainment industry today, but it wasn't back then, they relied on other people to film their games or broadcast them. If they NBA had any epic games of Wilt, trust me, they wouldn't be hiding them in some mysterious archive
The NBA has shown itself to be control freaks. Even going after people overseas about older footage. And control freaks are never obsessed by things they don't have.

I used to work for NY Public Library in the Donell and Lincoln center branches. They had a Wilt monster game there back in the 80's. As a teen I figured it would always be there. Now, they claim they don't have it. When I moved into producing I used to access old films from all types of sources and most institutions have no shame in stating their gaps in archives. The NBA was just evasive. The NFL has huge gaps but they admit it. But they have film of Jim Thorpe playing... Jim Thorpe was born in the 1880's. Back in the '20's and 30's they were no match as an institution for the NBA in the 60's as far as resources and remember the economic downspin at that time.

[PTB Fan]

OP with yet another research that puts him in a class of his own. Nice work.

This video shows Wilt strength in some way. He was reducing his finesse play and that led to a much greater efficiency.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wait, I can't believe that this thread has no essays a la Jlauber in it, is this real life? He probably fapped to death..
Strange... 5 pages already, no sign of him - thread might be old news and closed b4 he get's to see it :lol

[Shade8780]

Jlauber?

:coleman:

This is very strange...

[Loneshot]

says private...

[CavaliersFTW]

says private...

http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4

no it doesn't :D

[millwad]

Strange... 5 pages already, no sign of him - thread might be old news and closed b4 he get's to see it :lol

Haha, screw him though, glad he didn't join this thread because everyone would mock Wilt just to piss Jlauber off.

Do you have any new video projects going on? This was the best Wilt-video I've seen.

[abuC]

He'd be the best center today by a few hundred miles.

[CavaliersFTW]

Haha, screw him though, glad he didn't join this thread because everyone would mock Wilt just to piss Jlauber off.

Do you have any new video projects going on? This was the best Wilt-video I've seen.

Well, not unless I finish up going through all the Laker footage of Wilt, I only got through about half of his LA footage that I have so far. Reason I've been looking at it and got interested in making the video in the first place was because of those LA playoff series I've been reading about. I figured he wasn't even that good as a Laker until I was reading about them. And now that I'm reading the book the rivalry... it sounds like he wasn't that "good" (in a team/winning sense) when he was younger and putting up those mega-stats lol

[Asukal]

Haha, screw him though, glad he didn't join this thread because everyone would mock Wilt just to piss Jlauber off.

Do you have any new video projects going on? This was the best Wilt-video I've seen.

He probably got too hard and couldn't stop fapping. :roll:

In this video I don't see Wilt dominating Kareem at all, they had a great battle but no one clearly dominated the other. Gaylauber keeps telling people Wilt killed Kareem, it is simply not true. :facepalm

[madmax]

most dominant player of all time:applause: :bowdown:
Damn, what would I do to be able to see his and KAJ's battles live...

[eliteballer]

These clips are sped up

[millwad]

Thanks, my videos are getting better, the Kareem battle seems to be a success with everyone so now I like the idea of showing him battling his opponents more evenly, so that he doesn't look like some invincible God - otherwise he's just some big dude dunking on helpless no-names :lol


Yeah, it was actually a great idea. Made it much more enjoyable to watch, otherwise it would be like a one-side story and yeah, the problem with Wilt is that no one really shows his competition, only him doing work on them like you wrote. The footage out there is already limited and those who make Wilt highlights are often hardcore fans who would rather not show him getting dunked on etc..



btw, I can't tell if your simply displeased that I removed the slow motion, or if your actually thinking that I sped the footage up beyond actual real-time.. because I didn't speed it up past real-life speed, that wasn't my intention - My aim is to show exactly how the cameraman or fans saw the game from the sidelines, nothing is sped up beyond correcting the boring speed of slow motion. I did get it wrong the first render, but I cringed when I saw it, and immediately corrected that problem asap (a few hours later) with the 2nd render - and I removed the first one entirely and replaced the link with the new one.

Watch it again, there's nothing in there that's beyond real-life speed:
http://youtu.be/2i8mlFGwmO4



Yeah, I get it now, I thought you were trying to play dirty and that you sped it up on purpose to make him look more explosive, athletic and spectacular. That bothered me when I checked the video out, even though the footage is epic it still annoyed me.

I had no idea about the slow-mo stuff, that actually shows how much time you put down to make this great video which makes me appreciate it even more. I got it all wrong and I checked out the new video and it definitely looks better, still some parts are sped up a little too much but I bet it's not easy to edit from slow-mo to normal speed just like that. You did a great job.

Now just wait for a love letter PM from Jlauber, I bet that video made him all wet.

[CavaliersFTW]

These clips are sped up

Which clips? I've been closely scrutinizing the motions of all the people in the backgrounds, plus how the ball physics are moving - as the "control" reference for making sure it's in real-time. If something is off by even 5% playback it stands out like a sore thumb. If your seeing something that doesn't look right than specifically point it out so I can have the opportunity to make more corrections accordingly if necessary

[CavaliersFTW]

He probably got too hard and couldn't stop fapping. :roll:

In this video I don't see Wilt dominating Kareem at all, they had a great battle but no one clearly dominated the other. Gaylauber keeps telling people Wilt killed Kareem, it is simply not true. :facepalm

Kareem got the best of him a lot esp in '72 regular season but seriously, I have to be honest that footage came from the '71 playoffs, which was a series that even the Milwaukee fans felt Wilt played superior to Kareem. The highlights don't reflect that because half of them came from "Count down to a dream" - a 1971 Milwaukee Bucks documentary that painted MVP Kareem in a more positive light so obviously there was more clips of him dunking on Wilt rather than visa versa. But I understand what your saying, Wilt wasn't immune to taking a shalaking from Kareem. Kareem said Wilt was the only guy who ever played him 1 on 1, so he wasn't afraid to take the punishment if it meant his team would win. Wilt as a veteran >>> Wilt as a young, more self centered version of himself. Because veteran Wilt did virtually anything his teams needed on a game by game basis regardless of stats. When Wilt had the right kind of coaches (Like Alex Hannum) he was the kind of player that was anchoring the teams as the "best player" no matter what any stats would indicate. At least that's the impression I'm getting from reading about his playoff runs and watching all these documentaries I've pulled footage from.

[millwad]

Well, not unless I finish up going through all the Laker footage of Wilt, I only got through about half of his LA footage that I have so far. Reason I've been looking at it and got interested in making the video in the first place was because of those LA playoff series I've been reading about. I figured he wasn't even that good as a Laker until I was reading about them. And now that I'm reading the book the rivalry... it sounds like he wasn't that "good" (in a team/winning sense) when he was younger and putting up those mega-stats lol

You should skip Wilt for a while now, it would be cool if you could cover some other players as well, just like you wrote earlier that you would.

[Asukal]

You should skip Wilt for a while now, it would be cool if you could cover some other players as well, just like you wrote earlier that you would.

I'd love to see more of Bill Russell preferably his battles with Wilt, thank you very much. :cheers:

[Owl]

Which clips? I've been closely scrutinizing the motions of all the people in the backgrounds, plus how the ball physics are moving - as the "control" reference for making sure it's in real-time. If something is off by even 5% playback it stands out like a sore thumb. If your seeing something that doesn't look right than specifically point it out so I can have the opportunity to make more corrections accordingly if necessary
My suspicion is stuff may look/seem sped up because we are more accustomed to seeing the slo-mo clips from the era, so relative to expectations it seems too fast.

[millwad]

Wilt as a veteran >>> Wilt as a stats individual because he did was his teams needed above all else those years. When Wilt had the right kind of coaches (Like Alex Hannum) he was the kind of player that regardless of stats, was anchoring the teams as the "best player". At least that's the impression I'm getting from reading about his playoff runs and watching these documentaries from his LA seasons.

I think it's really interesting to watch Wilt's rankings on the top 10 MVP of the year lists. In '63 he averaged 44.8 points, 24.3 rebounds and 3.4 rebounds for a 31-49 Warrior team, that year he was 7th on the top 10 MVP list of the year.

Now compare his '63 stats to his '72 stats and you'll see a huge difference, and then go and check where Wilt was on the MVP list that season, he was third.

After the articles and links you shared I'm beginning to rate Wilt's last years in the league alot higher while rating his crazy stats seasons lower.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think it's really interesting to watch Wilt's rankings on the top 10 MVP of the year lists. In '63 he averaged 44.8 points, 24.3 rebounds and 3.4 rebounds for a 31-49 Warrior team, that year he was 7th on the top 10 MVP list of the year.

Now compare his '63 stats to his '72 stats and you'll see a huge difference, and then go and check where Wilt was on the MVP list that season, he was third.

After the articles and links you shared I'm beginning to rate Wilt's last years in the league alot higher while rating his crazy stats seasons lower.

62-63 was a terrible year according to "The Rivalry". Wilt is kind of like an F1 car. Can do amazing things but requires an incredible amount of input to get the best out of it. In '63 Wilt had a coach that simply could not earn any of Wilt's respect, Wilt basically did his own thing and his teammates had no choice but to do the same, and many felt turned off by Wilt that season too. Thus his team was terrible and lacked any ounce of chemistry. I believe that team didn't even make the playoffs no? Or if they did is that the season Swede Halbrook ousted them? The season before that was the first truly great year for Wilt as far as buying into a system with a great coach that produced wins to show for it. It was the move to SF that bumped out the good coach from '62 in place of the one that was to passive to gain any respect. '62 was a genuinely good year though, plus any of the Alex Hannum years on the 76'ers and Lakers. Hannum was Wilt's best coach

[millwad]

I'd love to see more of Bill Russell preferably his battles with Wilt, thank you very much. :cheers:

Me too! :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn_Ys1ZebjQ

[millwad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn_Ys1ZebjQ

Haha, wtf..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gloGY3UDZDo

[CavaliersFTW]

Haha, wtf..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gloGY3UDZDo

I was just brainstorming reasons why JL hasn't shown up :confusedshrug: it's spooky shit, it's been over 12 hours and no signs he's even alive anymore

[La Frescobaldi]

speed is great now thanks!!

I kind of agree about Hannum but I'm not certain.... Sharman had to deal with getting rid of Elgin Baylor, finding a way to get the rest of the Lakers to pick up when Jerry West pulled the original Kobe 2012 slump, and got Chamberlain to move yet again to an entirely new type of center - Defender of the Paint.
Gotta remember, Sharman was Chamberlain's third coach as a Laker.

At any rate... This is another great video man !!!

[millwad]

I was just brainstorming reasons why JL hasn't shown up :confusedshrug: it's spooky shit, it's been over 12 hours and no signs he's even alive anymore

Haha, it's too late in Sweden so I didn't get that video at first..:facepalm :roll:
And hahahaha, either Jlauber fapped himself to death or he's holding himself from writing after reading that he loves Wilt more than his family. :roll:

[eliteballer]

Which clips? I've been closely scrutinizing the motions of all the people in the backgrounds, plus how the ball physics are moving - as the "control" reference for making sure it's in real-time. If something is off by even 5% playback it stands out like a sore thumb. If your seeing something that doesn't look right than specifically point it out so I can have the opportunity to make more corrections accordingly if necessary


Most of the video...you can tell they are sped up, the movements dont look natural either.

[CavaliersFTW]

speed is great now thanks!!

I kind of agree about Hannum but I'm not certain.... Sharman had to deal with getting rid of Elgin Baylor, finding a way to get the rest of the Lakers to pick up when Jerry West pulled the original Kobe 2012 slump, and got Chamberlain to move yet again to an entirely new type of center - Defender of the Paint.
Gotta remember, Sharman was Chamberlain's third coach as a Laker.

At any rate... This is another great video man !!!

SHARMEN I'm an idiot for not mentioning him lol - def him and hannum both were the most successful coaches with Wilt

[Pointguard]

62-63 was a terrible year according to "The Rivalry". Wilt is kind of like an F1 car. Can do amazing things but requires an incredible amount of input to get the best out of it. In '63 Wilt had a coach that simply could not earn any of Wilt's respect, Wilt basically did his own thing and his teammates had no choice but to do the same, and many felt turned off by Wilt that season too. Thus his team was terrible and lacked any ounce of chemistry. I believe that team didn't even make the playoffs no? Or if they did is that the season Swede Halbrook ousted them? The season before that was the first truly great year for Wilt as far as buying into a system with a great coach that produced wins to show for it. It was the move to SF that bumped out the good coach from '62 in place of the one that was to passive to gain any respect. '62 was a genuinely good year though, plus any of the Alex Hannum years on the 76'ers and Lakers. Hannum was Wilt's best coach
As players get older, they understand the nuances of the game a lot better and how much they can do. Younger players are more likely to test their limits and how far they can go. I think young Wilt was not as disciplined as old Wilt but could do everything old Wilt could do, and more than likely, more of it. Wilt was so far ahead of his time coaching didn't really know what to do with him in a team context. Phil Jackson is still probably the only coach that has a proven record with ultra scorers. And coaching is a story of dynasties more-so than players.

Wilt was great when he was young. He's had more separation in the sport than anybody and by far greater margin than the next player - in the history of American team sports you don't see that type of separation. And that usually is the best measuring stick of greatness - the true comparison to the peer. Winning wasn't the standard in team sports for greatness at that time. Jim Brown, Pele, Musial and Mantle were the greatest at that time because of their play. Berra won 10 championships and wasn't better than Mantle, Gehrig or Ruth all of which you never heard about their ring count. I don't know if Jim Brown ever won anything. Musial is a legend for surpassing Babe Ruth for most HRs in a season and not much else.

Wilt in his later years looks like Kareem. Wilt in his younger years definitely has separation. So how does that reconcile. Wilt of the 60's could break out for a 60/30 game on a given day. Mid to late 60's a quadruple double of 20/30/15/10. In the 70's neither is happening. So how to reconcile the greatness question is really hard.

[WillyJakk]

Meh...not that impressive, dude absolutely had no left hand. :rolleyes:

[magnax1]

Wow, that was a really great vid.

[Nevaeh]

Jlauber?

:coleman:

This is very strange...

Jlauber's probably shell shocked that there's a bigger Wilt Fan than he is, with even better archived footage.
:oldlol:

Thanks Cavs, will DL ASAP (knowing how "That Sight" can be).

[senelcoolidge]

Dwight would shit on him.

Yeah, Dwight would be a power forward in the past NBA. Dwight would get murdered. Wilt was bigger, stronger, and more athletic.

[CavaliersFTW]

Meh...not that impressive, dude absolutely had no left hand. :rolleyes:
:roll:

and clearly he looks ineffective because of it

[swi7ch]

can mcgee still drop 50 on this guy?

[Psileas]

And about the speed - I've grown to HATE the mid-late 1960's and 70's obsession with slow motion... Personal preference for me is that replays for any sport can be in slow motion in moderation. Entire 25 minute long documentaries though? I literally combed through 6 documentary films - hours of total footage - from that period that were made from 100% slow motion footage the entire time, and you never even get to see these players moving at normal speed even if only for a simple frame of reference. Slow motion might make a player look elegant, and has it's place in highlights, but due to the fact that pretty much 99 percent of Wilt's "interesting camera angle" footage as a Laker is in nothing but slow-motion somebody out there at some point (me) needed to show what those games actually looked at real-life speed. Everybody has recycled Laker Wilt footage in slow motion again and again and again lol - so I felt real-time-playback for the mix would be a refreshing change - at least for myself. It better illustrates power, he had some real rim rattling dunks in the footage that otherwise didn't have the same oomph in slow-motion

This is something that I had mentioned in the past as well and a big reason I liked this video. It was frustrating me to no end that editors back then were so obsessed with those sped-down videos, even of typical plays, like jump shots. Sped-down videos, IMO, are a reason why lots of young fans considered the era slow and weak, especially a few ones that were slowed just by a little bit and initially made it seem like the game was played at normal speed and that the players were actually slow and unathletic. Of course, someone can realize that even such a video is slowed down by counting the time it takes to the ball to reach the rim after being released and then by comparing this time to the time needed in similar shots from today's games.

[RRR3]

Dunce Bungler petrified to come in this thread!:roll: :roll: :roll:

[La Frescobaldi]

Wow, great video. Wilt as an older player was still incredible. He's one of the few players that could dominate in any era. One of a kind.
Chamberlain is still, to this day, the greatest basketball player I've ever seen.

[nycelt84]

As players get older, they understand the nuances of the game a lot better and how much they can do. Younger players are more likely to test their limits and how far they can go.
Winning wasn't the standard in team sports for greatness at that time. Jim Brown, Pele, Musial and Mantle were the greatest at that time because of their play. Berra won 10 championships and wasn't better than Mantle, Gehrig or Ruth all of which you never heard about their ring count. I don't know if Jim Brown ever won anything. Musial is a legend for surpassing Babe Ruth for most HRs in a season and not much else.


Yogi Berra was a 3 time MVP and widely acknowledged as the bag catcher of his day so I have no idea what you mean there with that. Mantle was winning championships every year as well on those great Yankees teams. Stan Musial never passed Babe Ruth in anything and he won titles as well anyway. If you were referring to Roger Maris well he of course was a champion also and we don't even have to mention Pele. If winning wasn't considered important in those days then nobody would have considered Joe DiMaggio better than Ted Williams since Williams' numbers smoked DiMaggio but he never did anything of note in the World Series.

Jim Brown played on the 1964 NFL Champion Browns which was one of the best teams of that era and the Browns of his day was a perennial contender.

[CavaliersFTW]

can mcgee still drop 50 on this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgSYA3Gb7oI&t=38s :lol

[PTB Fan]

Why do people compare JaFail to Wilt?

:lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Why do people compare JaFail to Wilt?

:lol

To be funny, cause it does sound funny lol

[Gotterdammerung]

I don't know if Jim Brown ever won anything....[snip]...

Great post, and I agree.

Jim Brown won an NFL title with the Browns in '64, I believe. Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Championship_Game,_1964)

Had 114 yards on 27 carries & the Browns shut out the Colts 27-0.

[wpdougie2180]

Great post, and I agree.

Jim Brown won an NFL title with the Browns in '64, I believe. Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Championship_Game,_1964)

Had 114 yards on 27 carries & the Browns shut out the Colts 27-0.

46 of which came on one play after the team was up 17-0 his point is kinda valid on Brown since in his 4 (playoff games) championship games he avg. 16.5 carries for 60.25 yds and that's factoring in the 46 yard carry after the game was in hand, you take that away he was downright pedestrian when the chips were down (1-3 in championship games) yet he was always considered the best ever even till this day. As he said it was more about the individuals excellance than team success back then.

[Pointguard]

Yogi Berra was a 3 time MVP and widely acknowledged as the bag catcher of his day so I have no idea what you mean there with that. Mantle was winning championships every year as well on those great Yankees teams. Stan Musial never passed Babe Ruth in anything and he won titles as well anyway. If you were referring to Roger Maris well he of course was a champion also and we don't even have to mention Pele. If winning wasn't considered important in those days then nobody would have considered Joe DiMaggio better than Ted Williams since Williams' numbers smoked DiMaggio but he never did anything of note in the World Series.

Jim Brown played on the 1964 NFL Champion Browns which was one of the best teams of that era and the Browns of his day was a perennial contender.
I was talking about Maris as all of the people I mentioned were peaking at the time Wilt was crushing - that's why I mentioned them. The Yankess won 4 times with Mantle as their best player as compared to twice that many with Berra as the best player. Maris was never the teams best player but he gets more folklore than Yogi Berra does. Ask your father or grandfather what 714 or 56 or 60 or .400 meant, or who could steal home plate, or who did the basket catch, who got the triple crown and then ask him the number of rings of any player. People were hypnotized by those numbers. You even read novels of that period and they are mentioned. Ring count was never part of it. Boston didn't win a world series for like 70 years and its unfair to say they didn't have great players for those 70 years.

Yeah Jim Brown won one ring and the Green Bay Packers were the dynasty of that period winning three during the Jim Brown era (8 years). The Clevelend Browns were a real dynasty the years just before the arrival of Jim Brown when they made five straight championship games and won the last two championships just before Brown joined the team. So one year isn't that big of claim. Hockey fans know the most productive scorer is Gretsky but they don't go around saying Henry Richard won ten stanley cups.

Joe Dimaggio had the hearts of fans and fit into Yankee lore. He was charismatic and dated hot chicks. He looked better on the back page of a newspaper and got attention that way. I never heard he was better than Ted tho, and I've primarily read NY influenced writers. Ted Williams is still baseball folklore as I mentioned two of his feats above and you wonder if anybody will ever surpass that. I did an oral history project in Harlem once in college. They really recall personal achievement numbers, great feats and folklore type of accomplishments consistently thru 20 different men all of whom had sports inclinations. The championship count was never recalled.

And besides, the Harlem Globetrotters never loose :lol

[Pointguard]

46 of which came on one play after the team was up 17-0 his point is kinda valid on Brown since in his 4 (playoff games) championship games he avg. 16.5 carries for 60.25 yds and that's factoring in the 46 yard carry after the game was in hand, you take that away he was downright pedestrian when the chips were down (1-3 in championship games) yet he was always considered the best ever even till this day. As he said it was more about the individuals excellance than team success back then.
Thanks WPDougie. Gotterdammerung is all good as well. The irony of Jim Brown in this thread is that he is the reason all of the film footage was slowed down. They used to love showing him in slow motion cause he was great at cuts, or footballs equivalent to the cross over, and make people slam into each other or freak the defenders body into grabbing air. When I worked at the Library I would watch football shows where they would put a slow motion OJ and Jim Brown clips to this like majestic classical music. They were like youtube remixes but done I guess in the '70's maybe even the '60's.

[Asukal]

Still no sign of gaylauber.... did he get a stroke or something? :oldlol:

[PistolPete44]

Still no sign of gaylauber.... did he get a stroke or something? :oldlol:
:lol :cry:

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, not unless I finish up going through all the Laker footage of Wilt, I only got through about half of his LA footage that I have so far. Reason I've been looking at it and got interested in making the video in the first place was because of those LA playoff series I've been reading about. I figured he wasn't even that good as a Laker until I was reading about them. And now that I'm reading the book the rivalry... it sounds like he wasn't that "good" (in a team/winning sense) when he was younger and putting up those mega-stats lol


LOL@ wasn't even that good as a Laker. LOL.

and that bit about reading the Rivalry.... "it sounds like he wasn't that "good" (in a team/winning sense) when he was younger..."

you sure about that? Go to basketball reference and look at season by season for the Warriors.

Be sure to start with the dead last '59 season so you can see one of the greatest turnarounds in sports history. While you're at it, check and see what the difference was on their roster. They got Joe Rucklick.... that must have been it.


I wonder if we line up that Warriors team against the Celtics, what do we see?

Paul Arizin
Wilt Chamberlain
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Ernie Beck
Joe Graboski
Vern Hatton
Andy Johnson
Joe Ruklick
Woody Sauldsberry
Guy Sparrow

Celtics

Bob Cousy
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Frank Ramsey
Bill Russell
Bill Sharman
Jim Loscutoff
Maury King
John Richter
Gene Conley
Gene Guarilia


On the side......... did you ever see a leader board that looked like this?

Most Valuable Player: Wilt Chamberlain (37.6/27.0/2.3)
Rookie of the Year: Wilt Chamberlain (37.6/27.0/2.3)
PPG Leader: Wilt Chamberlain (37.6)
RPG Leader: Wilt Chamberlain (27.0)
APG Leader: Bob Cousy (9.5)
WS Leader: Wilt Chamberlain (17.0)

[jlauber]

62-63 was a terrible year according to "The Rivalry". Wilt is kind of like an F1 car. Can do amazing things but requires an incredible amount of input to get the best out of it. In '63 Wilt had a coach that simply could not earn any of Wilt's respect, Wilt basically did his own thing and his teammates had no choice but to do the same, and many felt turned off by Wilt that season too. Thus his team was terrible and lacked any ounce of chemistry. I believe that team didn't even make the playoffs no? Or if they did is that the season Swede Halbrook ousted them? The season before that was the first truly great year for Wilt as far as buying into a system with a great coach that produced wins to show for it. It was the move to SF that bumped out the good coach from '62 in place of the one that was to passive to gain any respect. '62 was a genuinely good year though, plus any of the Alex Hannum years on the 76'ers and Lakers. Hannum was Wilt's best coach

Dickwad...


I think it's really interesting to watch Wilt's rankings on the top 10 MVP of the year lists. In '63 he averaged 44.8 points, 24.3 rebounds and 3.4 rebounds for a 31-49 Warrior team, that year he was 7th on the top 10 MVP list of the year.

Now compare his '63 stats to his '72 stats and you'll see a huge difference, and then go and check where Wilt was on the MVP list that season, he was third.

After the articles and links you shared I'm beginning to rate Wilt's last years in the league alot higher while rating his crazy stats seasons lower.


Pointguard...


Wilt was great when he was young. He's had more separation in the sport than anybody and by far greater margin than the next player - in the history of American team sports you don't see that type of separation. And that usually is the best measuring stick of greatness - the true comparison to the peer. Winning wasn't the standard in team sports for greatness at that time. Jim Brown, Pele, Musial and Mantle were the greatest at that time because of their play. Berra won 10 championships and wasn't better than Mantle, Gehrig or Ruth all of which you never heard about their ring count. I don't know if Jim Brown ever won anything. Musial is a legend for surpassing Babe Ruth for most HRs in a season and not much else.

Wilt in his later years looks like Kareem. Wilt in his younger years definitely has separation. So how does that reconcile. Wilt of the 60's could break out for a 60/30 game on a given day. Mid to late 60's a quadruple double of 20/30/15/10. In the 70's neither is happening. So how to reconcile the greatness question is really hard.


La Frescobaldi...


LOL@ wasn't even that good as a Laker. LOL.

and that bit about reading the Rivalry.... "it sounds like he wasn't that "good" (in a team/winning sense) when he was younger..."

you sure about that? Go to basketball reference and look at season by season for the Warriors.

Be sure to start with the dead last '59 season so you can see one of the greatest turnarounds in sports history. While you're at it, check and see what the difference was on their roster. They got Joe Rucklick.... that must have been it.


I wonder if we line up that Warriors team against the Celtics, what do we see?




1. Wilt's 62-63 season may have been the greatest season ever. Why? Because he SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried a cast of clowns roster that season. Yes, his TEAM only went 31-49. BUT, they lost 35 of those games by single-digits. In fact, they had a -2.1 ppg differential. And they were only involved in EIGHT games that were decided by 20+ points (going 4-4.)

All Wilt did that season was lead the league in scoring (and by +10.8 ppg over the runner-up) at 44.8 ppg. He also led the league in rebounding at 24.3 rpg. And he set a then-record mark of .528 from the floor (in a league that shot .441 overall.) He even found time to average 3.4 apg...which was amazing, considering that his teammates collectively shot .412 from the field (the WORST team shot .427 that season BTW.)

And before someone even suggests that Wilt played with two all-stars...

Meschery averaged 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and shot .425. And that was his GREATEST season. Not only that, but he only played in 64 games. And Rodgers? He was/is arguably the WORST shooter of ALL-TIME. And, in that 62-63 season, he had one of his BEST seasons, shooting a paltry .387.

And how about this? Wilt's 62-63 Warriors only went 1-8 against Russell's Celtics, BUT, ONLY THREE of those games were blowouts Boston winning 127-109, and 135-118) , and in one of them, Wilt's Warriors WON it (128-112.) In fact, in those eight losses, Boston had leads of 19, 4, 7, 13, 11, and were down 2, 4, and were all even in another going into the 4th quarters of those eight games. Boston won one of those games, 135-120 in OT. Boston's seven other win's were by margins of 18, 17, 14, 6, 6, 6, and 3 points. How did Wilt, with ZERO HOF teammates, fare against Russell, and his EIGHT other HOF teammates? Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, in those nine H2H's, by a margin of 38.1 ppg to 14.2 ppg. (He also outrebounded Russell over the course of those nine H2H's.) Included in those nine games, were games in which Wilt outscored Russell by margins of, 23-10; 31-6; 32-11; 34-20; 40-25; 43-8; 45-16; 45-12; and 50-23.

As for the MVP balloting in 62-63. I can see Russell beating Wilt out. After all, Wilt's TEAM only went 31-49. I can see Baylor and West, paired together and on a 53-27 team, outvoting Wilt. I can see Oscar, with Embry and Twyman, and on a 42-38 team edging Wilt. And I can see Pettit, on a 48-32 team, (and with Beaty, Bridges, Hagan, and Wilkins) edging Wilt. But how does Red Kerr, averaging a paltry 15.7 ppg and 13.0 rpg, and paired with Greer, Walker, and Schayes, beat out Chamberlain? And how in the hell does Terry Dischinger, and on a 25-55 team, get more first place votes than Chamberlain?

And how about this comparison...Kareem won the MVP in the 75-76 season... on a 40-42 team. Now, in his 71-72 season, Kareem won the MVP award on a 63-19 team that had a +11.1 ppg differential. In that 71-72 season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged a career high 44.2 mpg, scored a career high 34.8 ppg, grabbed 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the floor. Obviously he was racking up huge numbers in blowouts that season. BUT, in his 75-76 season, and when his team desperately needed him to step up, his mpg dropped to 41.2 mpg, his scoring declined to 27.7 ppg, and his shooting fell dramatically to .529. His rebounding, in a weak rebounding league, was at 16.9 rpg, and he did hand out 5.0 apg.

Yet, here was Chamberlain, playing his heart out on as crappy a team as any great has ever been saddled with. Instead of basically folding his tent like Kareem did in '75-76, Wilt averaged 47.6 mpg, ran away with the scoring title, led the league in rebounding, and set a FG% record (that he would shatter three more times.) In fact, Wilt LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories...including WIN SHARES (and by a wide margin), and PER (with an ALL-TIME RECORD of 31.8.)

Furthermore, Wilt then takes that horrible roster, the very next season, to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. The only addition is rookie Nate Thurmond, who plays part-time, out of position, and shoots .395 from the floor. How bad was that roster? New coach Alex Hannum conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, and against some draftees and undrafted players, and guess who won? In any case, did Chamberlain win the MVP THAT season? Hell no...Oscar, now with the addition of Lucas to Embry and Twyman, takes his team to a 55-25 record, and beats out Chamberlain, despite Wilt once again dominating the entire league.

Comtinued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

2. Swede Halbrook ousting Wilt's team in the 60-61 playoffs? :roll: :roll: :roll:
The 7-3 Halbrook averaged 11.3 ppg in that series (and in the entire playoffs he shot .333), while Chamberlain averaged 37.0 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415 overall.) Oh, and BTW, Wilt's teammates collectively shot ... get this... .332 in that series. Chamberlain's "HOF" teammates, Arizin and Gola, shot .328 and .206 (yes, .206) in that series.

3. How about Wilt in his ROOKIE season, when he not only won the ROY, but the MVP as well? He took what had been a LAST PLACE team to a 49-26 record. THEN, he single-handedly demolished Syracuse in the first round of the playoffs, including a series clinching 53-22 game. And, had he not badly injured his hand in game three of the ECF's, and against Russell and his SEVEN other HOF teammates, who knows. In game four, the injured Wilt was completely ineffective, and was outplayed by the largest margin in his H2H's with Russell, putting up a 12-15 game to Russell's 26-39. Wilt did storm back in a "must-win" game five, crushing Russell with a 50 point, 35 rebound game. And, in game six, Boston eked out a 119-117 win. Had Wilt not been injured, who knows?

4. Then there was Chamberlain's 61-62 season. He averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 shooting in ten H2H's against Russell. Then, in the playoffs, Wilt "only" averaged 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting against Russell (who averaged 22 ppg on .420 shooting against Wilt.) Chamberlain took that 48-32 team, thru Syracuse in the first round (including a 56-35 game five in a best-of-series), and then to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. Think about this...Wilt's teammates collectively shot .354 in the playoffs that season (including Arizin at .375 and Gola at .271.) Just how in the hell did Chamberlain do it?

5. Or Wilt's 64-65 Sixers, who went 40-40 during the regular season? He led them to a 3-1 romp over the 48-32 Royals in the first round of the playoffs. Then, in the ECF's, and against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, he took his team to a game seven, ONE point loss. And, in that game seven, Wilt scored 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. In fact, in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg against Russell.

6. And in Wilt's 65-66 season, he SHELLED not only Russell in the vast majority of their 14 H2H games (and I mean by HUGE margins in BOTH scoring and rebounding), he OVERWHELMED the likes of Thurmond and Bellamy, too. In the process, he LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; in rebounding at 24.6 rpg; set a FG% record of .540; and even handed out 5.2 apg. BTW, he led his TEAM to the BEST record in the league.

True, in the ECF's, his TEAM lost to Russell's Celtics, 4-1. Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg, 30.1 rpg, and shot .509 in that series (including a series clinching loss performance of 46 points and 34 rebounds.) How about his teammates? They collectively shot .352!

7. For those that claim that Wilt somehow "hindered" his teammates... Meschery, Gola, Hairston, Goodrich, and Greer, all had their BEST seasons, WITH Wilt. And Jerry West had great seasons, and post-seasons, WITH Wilt. The rest of Wilt's good teammates were generally very good with Chamberlain (players like Cunningham and Walker had outstanding seasons with Wilt, even if they had some better seasons later on.)

I fully agree with Pointguard...a younger Chamberlain was capable of just OBLITERATING his opposing centers. My god, he had FOUR seasons, just against Russell, of over 30 ppg (including the post-season), with highs of 39.7 ppg and 38.1 ppg. He just MURDERED Bellamy throughout their entire careers, but how about this...in 20 STRAIGHT H2H games, covering the 61-62 and 62-63 season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg against Bellamy (including a 52.7 ppg season, in 10 H2H games, in the 61-62 season.) Or a 64-65 Wilt averaging 40.1 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed in their nine H2H games? Or Wilt averaging 30 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond over the course of 11 straight games in the mid-60's, including games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even a 45 point explosion? Keep in mind that Kareem faced Nate in well over 50 H2H games, and his HIGH game was 34 points.

Wilt could pour in a 62 point game (on 27-45 shooting) against a PRIME Russell. He also had a game against a PRIME Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 55-19 margin. He had THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy, including an eye-popping 73 point, 36 rebound game.

THAT was an early Wilt...

[D-Wade316]

^:roll:

[Bless Mathews]

Post of the month ...
:applause:

Another but prime Wilt?;;;;;;;?????

[millwad]

Haha, GayLauber couldn't stay away with his mancrush and yet again he ruins a thread..

The worst poster on ISH by far..:facepalm

His love for Wilt made Wilt a great joke on ISH and Gaylauber essay'd us again...:facepalm

[Shade8780]

Lol oh f*ck, here's Gaylauber.

[CavaliersFTW]

1. Wilt's 62-63 season may have been the greatest season ever. Why? Because he SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried a cast of clowns roster that season. Yes, his TEAM only went 31-49. BUT, they lost 35 of those games by single-digits. In fact, they had a -2.1 ppg differential. And they were only involved in EIGHT games that were decided by 20+ points (going 4-4.)

All Wilt did that season was lead the league in scoring (and by +10.8 ppg over the runner-up) at 44.8 ppg. He also led the league in rebounding at 24.3 rpg. And he set a then-record mark of .528 from the floor (in a league that shot .441 overall.) He even found time to average 3.4 apg...which was amazing, considering that his teammates collectively shot .412 from the field (the WORST team shot .427 that season BTW.)

And before someone even suggests that Wilt played with two all-stars...

Meschery averaged 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and shot .425. And that was his GREATEST season. Not only that, but he only played in 64 games. And Rodgers? He was/is arguably the WORST shooter of ALL-TIME. And, in that 62-63 season, he had one of his BEST seasons, shooting a paltry .387.

And how about this? Wilt's 62-63 Warriors only went 1-8 against Russell's Celtics, BUT, ONLY THREE of those games were blowouts Boston winning 127-109, and 135-118) , and in one of them, Wilt's Warriors WON it (128-112.) In fact, in those eight losses, Boston had leads of 19, 4, 7, 13, 11, and were down 2, 4, and were all even in another going into the 4th quarters of those eight games. Boston won one of those games, 135-120 in OT. Boston's seven other win's were by margins of 18, 17, 14, 6, 6, 6, and 3 points. How did Wilt, with ZERO HOF teammates, fare against Russell, and his EIGHT other HOF teammates? Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, in those nine H2H's, by a margin of 38.1 ppg to 14.2 ppg. (He also outrebounded Russell over the course of those nine H2H's.) Included in those nine games, were games in which Wilt outscored Russell by margins of, 23-10; 31-6; 32-11; 34-20; 40-25; 43-8; 45-16; 45-12; and 50-23.

As for the MVP balloting in 62-63. I can see Russell beating Wilt out. After all, Wilt's TEAM only went 31-49. I can see Baylor and West, paired together and on a 53-27 team, outvoting Wilt. I can see Oscar, with Embry and Twyman, and on a 42-38 team edging Wilt. And I can see Pettit, on a 48-32 team, (and with Beaty, Bridges, Hagan, and Wilkins) edging Wilt. But how does Red Kerr, averaging a paltry 15.7 ppg and 13.0 rpg, and paired with Greer, Walker, and Schayes, beat out Chamberlain? And how in the hell does Terry Dischinger, and on a 25-55 team, get more first place votes than Chamberlain?

And how about this comparison...Kareem won the MVP in the 75-76 season... on a 40-42 team. Now, in his 71-72 season, Kareem won the MVP award on a 63-19 team that had a +11.1 ppg differential. In that 71-72 season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged a career high 44.2 mpg, scored a career high 34.8 ppg, grabbed 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the floor. Obviously he was racking up huge numbers in blowouts that season. BUT, in his 75-76 season, and when his team desperately needed him to step up, his mpg dropped to 41.2 mpg, his scoring declined to 27.7 ppg, and his shooting fell dramatically to .529. His rebounding, in a weak rebounding league, was at 16.9 rpg, and he did hand out 5.0 apg.

Yet, here was Chamberlain, playing his heart out on as crappy a team as any great has ever been saddled with. Instead of basically folding his tent like Kareem did in '75-76, Wilt averaged 47.6 mpg, ran away with the scoring title, led the league in rebounding, and set a FG% record (that he would shatter three more times.) In fact, Wilt LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories...including WIN SHARES (and by a wide margin), and PER (with an ALL-TIME RECORD of 31.8.)

Furthermore, Wilt then takes that horrible roster, the very next season, to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. The only addition is rookie Nate Thurmond, who plays part-time, out of position, and shoots .395 from the floor. How bad was that roster? New coach Alex Hannum conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, and against some draftees and undrafted players, and guess who won? In any case, did Chamberlain win the MVP THAT season? Hell no...Oscar, now with the addition of Lucas to Embry and Twyman, takes his team to a 55-25 record, and beats out Chamberlain, despite Wilt once again dominating the entire league.

Comtinued...

Jlauber, how was the video?




Now, my response to your collective response. Allow me to elaborate on my impression of a few of Wilt's seasons thus far:

In my collection of game films and news papers that pertain to Wilt Chamberlain throughout his career I noticed some interesting things. Wilt goes from being a mighty record breaker in his early career, no doubt holding the media and public in awe, to "playing the best basketball of his career" not when he was scoring, but when he was finally given the teammates and great coaching that he deserved and should have had all along.

What I found surprising, especially upon investigating some of his playoff runs in the 70's, is that despite a big slide in his stats which - if only looked at on a stat-sheet might indicate he had lost a step -, the media and public mind viewed and go out of their way to sayt that his performances might be some of the best basketball he's played in years. Why? I wondered... Well due to some of the media comments it is at least in part due to the "bar" of a team leader set by Bill Russell. The man with less stats but had more wins (thus respect) to show for it while playing the best basketball in moments of clutch. And a glue within the framework of his teams. Wilt to the Lakers was Russell to the Celtics. He was THE integral cog on the Lakers teams in the 70's and was the best player on those teams and his stats would not reflect that to most people due to his scoring stats but it was unanimously agreed by the people at that time. Maybe Wilt had the same characteristics in his scoring years and they just went unnoticed but he really was gluing the Lakers of the 71 and 72 together through the playoffs and regular seasons, sinking critical buckets, playing off-the-stat-sheets only concerned about doing what's necessary for the wins, playing lockdown D in the closing minutes of games, making steals and chasing loose balls and 100% commitment not to produce but simply to make his teammates better. And when he was needed to step up to the plate and patch up the holes or produce points, he did, so his stats even seem "inconsistent" in playoff runs in the '70s but this is just his game-by-game abilities and willingness to do what the team needed. When the chips were down in '71 he was a man on a mission. And he was on the same transcending tear throughout '72. That's what any stats alone would never indicate.

Inversely, 62-63 season - at least according to the book The Rivalry - may appear to be great for him on a personal level, but it was a season where Wilt had problems integrating himself into the framework of his team. In 1961-62 he had his first great great coach that finally understood how to gain Wilt's respect, and additionally, that was the first coach giving Wilt a notably successful post-season that ignited Wilt's faith that Boston was beatable, and not invincible. But this coach could not leave Philadelphia and move to SF with the team for personal reasons. And so a new coach was necessary, and this new coach was soft as a marshmellow and absolutely did not know how to gain Wilt's respect and seemed completely inadequate. Now, I don't blame Wilt for this because he did what any frustrated superstar would do, but off the stat-sheet he went his own way and blatantly ignored the coach on many occasions. Gottlieb defended Wilt, the franchise star, and overruled the coaches desire to fine or suspend Wilt on several occasions for his outward insubordination in front of all the players. This caused tension on the team, during practices, and in the locker room. And the team performance -regardless of his teams "lack" of talent- showed. He did not even make the playoffs despite being able to "drag" low talent to the playoffs even as a rookie. His weak coach and outward reaction too having one is the kind of thing that doesn't "make his teammates better" and rather, the opposite especially due to the fact that he's the guy getting all the stats. It may appear like he carried them and that they were terrible on paper, but maybe just maybe he was simply not playing good team basketball that year, and it was at the expense of his teammates. I don't care about winshares or anything like that I'm just looking at how he was perceived by his teammates and coach that watched him play that season. He was directionless and frustrated without a good coach and that season was not him playing good team basketball, it was him playing as an individual - at the expense of his teammates and coach. It looks good from statistical analysis. It does not look good from testimonial analysis. I give him credit for still producing crazy #'s, and I don't blame him for his actions, but I don't think this was one of his best seasons. '62, ''66, '67, '68, '71, and '72 are all ahead of that season in my book, and possibly a few more seasons. It could change if I learn more info that paints a different light on that season but right now it doesn't seem like he played team basketball... and basketball is a team sport not a 1 man sport. I understand what he was doing from first-hand observations, I watched Lebron on the Cavs put up great stats and "carry" his team but he also was aloof, disobedient, and frustrated. Ultimately, he left the Cavs for greener pasture. Wilt didn't have that option, but I bet he would have after that '63 season had he had the choice.

[jlauber]

Jlauber, no Wilt thread is complete until you've arrived haha, but first off, how was the video?




Now, my response to your collective response. Allow me to elaborate on my impression of a few of Wilt's seasons thus far:

In my collection of game films and news papers that pertain to Wilt Chamberlain throughout his career I noticed some interesting things. Wilt goes from being a mighty record breaker in his early career, no doubt holding the media and public in awe, to "playing the best basketball of his career" not when he was scoring, but when he was finally given the teammates and great coaching that he deserved and should have had all along.

What I found surprising, especially upon investigating some of his playoff runs in the 70's, is that despite a big slide in his stats which - if only looked at on a stat-sheet might indicate he had lost a step -, the media and public mind viewed and go out of their way to sayt that his performances might be some of the best basketball he's played in years. Why? I wondered... Well due to some of the media comments it is at least in part due to the "bar" of a team leader set by Bill Russell. The man with less stats but had more wins (thus respect) to show for it while playing the best basketball in moments of clutch. And a glue within the framework of his teams. Wilt to the Lakers was Russell to the Celtics. He was THE integral cog on the Lakers teams in the 70's and was the best player on those teams and his stats would not reflect that to most people due to his scoring stats but it was unanimously agreed by the people at that time. Maybe Wilt had the same characteristics in his scoring years and they just went unnoticed but he really was gluing the Lakers of the 71 and 72 together through the playoffs and regular seasons, sinking critical buckets, playing off-the-stat-sheets only concerned about doing what's necessary for the wins, playing lockdown D in the closing minutes of games, making steals and chasing loose balls and 100% commitment not to produce but simply to make his teammates better. And when he was needed to step up to the plate and patch up the holes or produce points, he did, so his stats even seem "inconsistent" in playoff runs in the '70s but this is just his game-by-game abilities and willingness to do what the team needed. When the chips were down in '71 he was a man on a mission. And he was on the same transcending tear throughout '72. That's what any stats alone would never indicate.

Inversely, 62-63 season - at least according to the book The Rivalry - may appear to be great for him on a personal level, but it was a season where Wilt had problems integrating himself into the framework of his team. In 1961-62 he had his first great great coach that finally understood how to gain Wilt's respect, and additionally, that was the first coach giving Wilt a notably successful post-season that ignited Wilt's faith that Boston was beatable, and not invincible. But this coach could not leave Philadelphia and move to SF with the team for personal reasons. And so a new coach was necessary, and this new coach was soft as a marshmellow and absolutely did not know how to gain Wilt's respect and seemed completely inadequate. Now, I don't blame Wilt for this because he did what any frustrated superstar would do, but off the stat-sheet he went his own way and blatantly ignored the coach on many occasions. Gottlieb defended Wilt, the franchise star, and overruled the coaches desire to fine or suspend Wilt on several occasions for his outward insubordination in front of all the players. This caused tension on the team, during practices, and in the locker room. And the team performance -regardless of his teams "lack" of talent- showed. He did not even make the playoffs despite being able to "drag" low talent to the playoffs even as a rookie. His weak coach and outward reaction too having one is the kind of thing that doesn't "make his teammates better" and rather, the opposite especially due to the fact that he's the guy getting all the stats. It may appear like he carried them and that they were terrible on paper, but maybe just maybe he was simply not playing good team basketball that year, and it was at the expense of his teammates. I don't care about winshares or anything like that I'm just looking at how he was perceived by his teammates and coach that watched him play that season. He was directionless and frustrated without a good coach and that season was not him playing good team basketball, it was him playing as an individual - at the expense of his teammates and coach. Does that sound like his best season ever!? I give him credit for still producing crazy #'s, and I don't blame him for his actions, but I don't think this was one of his best seasons. '62, ''66, '67, '68, '71, and '72 are all ahead of that season in my book, and possibly a few more seasons. It could change if I learn more info that paints a different light on that season but right now it doesn't seem like he played team basketball... and basketball is a team sport not a 1 man sport. I understand what he was doing from first-hand observations, I watched Lebron on the Cavs put up great stats and "carry" his team but he also was aloof, disobedient, and frustrated. Ultimately, he left the Cavs for greener pasture. Wilt didn't have that option, but I bet he would have after that '63 season had he had the choice.

I don't have much time, but first off, yes, GREAT videos (as always.) You have provided the BEST footage of Chamberlain with ALL of your videos.

As for the rest...

I'll address it later, other than to say this...

in that 62-63 season, Chamberlain could have just given up, but instead, he played 47.6 mpg, and kept his team in nearly every game.

[La Frescobaldi]

Jlauber, how was the video?




Now, my response to your collective response. Allow me to elaborate on my impression of a few of Wilt's seasons thus far:

In my collection of game films and news papers that pertain to Wilt Chamberlain throughout his career I noticed some interesting things. Wilt goes from being a mighty record breaker in his early career, no doubt holding the media and public in awe, to "playing the best basketball of his career" not when he was scoring, but when he was finally given the teammates and great coaching that he deserved and should have had all along.

What I found surprising, especially upon investigating some of his playoff runs in the 70's, is that despite a big slide in his stats which - if only looked at on a stat-sheet might indicate he had lost a step -, the media and public mind viewed and go out of their way to sayt that his performances might be some of the best basketball he's played in years. Why? I wondered... Well due to some of the media comments it is at least in part due to the "bar" of a team leader set by Bill Russell. The man with less stats but had more wins (thus respect) to show for it while playing the best basketball in moments of clutch. And a glue within the framework of his teams. Wilt to the Lakers was Russell to the Celtics. He was THE integral cog on the Lakers teams in the 70's and was the best player on those teams and his stats would not reflect that to most people due to his scoring stats but it was unanimously agreed by the people at that time. Maybe Wilt had the same characteristics in his scoring years and they just went unnoticed but he really was gluing the Lakers of the 71 and 72 together through the playoffs and regular seasons, sinking critical buckets, playing off-the-stat-sheets only concerned about doing what's necessary for the wins, playing lockdown D in the closing minutes of games, making steals and chasing loose balls and 100% commitment not to produce but simply to make his teammates better. And when he was needed to step up to the plate and patch up the holes or produce points, he did, so his stats even seem "inconsistent" in playoff runs in the '70s but this is just his game-by-game abilities and willingness to do what the team needed. When the chips were down in '71 he was a man on a mission. And he was on the same transcending tear throughout '72. That's what any stats alone would never indicate.

Inversely, 62-63 season - at least according to the book The Rivalry - may appear to be great for him on a personal level, but it was a season where Wilt had problems integrating himself into the framework of his team. In 1961-62 he had his first great great coach that finally understood how to gain Wilt's respect, and additionally, that was the first coach giving Wilt a notably successful post-season that ignited Wilt's faith that Boston was beatable, and not invincible. But this coach could not leave Philadelphia and move to SF with the team for personal reasons. And so a new coach was necessary, and this new coach was soft as a marshmellow and absolutely did not know how to gain Wilt's respect and seemed completely inadequate. Now, I don't blame Wilt for this because he did what any frustrated superstar would do, but off the stat-sheet he went his own way and blatantly ignored the coach on many occasions. Gottlieb defended Wilt, the franchise star, and overruled the coaches desire to fine or suspend Wilt on several occasions for his outward insubordination in front of all the players. This caused tension on the team, during practices, and in the locker room. And the team performance -regardless of his teams "lack" of talent- showed. He did not even make the playoffs despite being able to "drag" low talent to the playoffs even as a rookie. His weak coach and outward reaction too having one is the kind of thing that doesn't "make his teammates better" and rather, the opposite especially due to the fact that he's the guy getting all the stats. It may appear like he carried them and that they were terrible on paper, but maybe just maybe he was simply not playing good team basketball that year, and it was at the expense of his teammates. I don't care about winshares or anything like that I'm just looking at how he was perceived by his teammates and coach that watched him play that season. He was directionless and frustrated without a good coach and that season was not him playing good team basketball, it was him playing as an individual - at the expense of his teammates and coach. It looks good from statistical analysis. It does not look good from testimonial analysis. I give him credit for still producing crazy #'s, and I don't blame him for his actions, but I don't think this was one of his best seasons. '62, ''66, '67, '68, '71, and '72 are all ahead of that season in my book, and possibly a few more seasons. It could change if I learn more info that paints a different light on that season but right now it doesn't seem like he played team basketball... and basketball is a team sport not a 1 man sport. I understand what he was doing from first-hand observations, I watched Lebron on the Cavs put up great stats and "carry" his team but he also was aloof, disobedient, and frustrated. Ultimately, he left the Cavs for greener pasture. Wilt didn't have that option, but I bet he would have after that '63 season had he had the choice.

This is very perceptive. I have no idea if it is accurate in reference to Chamberlain's early years.

The greatest performers in nearly every walk of life are most commonly loners, aloof , and yeah generally frustrated. e.g., Beethoven, John Lennon, Einstein, Newton, Chamberlain, Jimi Hendrix, really any number of novelists, painters, athletes, soldiers, businessmen........
They don't understand why the people around them "just don't get it" and can't get it done - they just assume everyone is at their own highest level, or should be. And when the average person fails to meet that high expectation, they can get tags like 'poor people skills' or 'doesn't play well with others' ...... generally from people who aren't qualified to tie your shoes.

If you are able to make the right judgement calls with guys like that - the very highest skilled people in the world - I predict you could have a very successful career in high management.

sorry for the rant....... just sayin

[CavaliersFTW]

This is very perceptive. I have no idea if it is accurate in reference to Chamberlain's early years.

The greatest performers in nearly every walk of life are most commonly loners, aloof , and yeah generally frustrated. e.g., Beethoven, John Lennon, Einstein, Newton, Chamberlain, Jimi Hendrix, really any number of novelists, painters, athletes, soldiers, businessmen........
They don't understand why the people around them "just don't get it" and can't get it done - they just assume everyone is at their own highest level, or should be. And when the average person fails to meet that high expectation, they can get tags like 'poor people skills' or 'doesn't play well with others' ...... generally from people who aren't qualified to tie your shoes.

If you are able to make the right judgement calls with guys like that - the very highest skilled people in the world - I predict you could have a very successful career in high management.

sorry for the rant....... just sayin

Well I should say that if I'm being too insistent with my opinion I have to be careful - Because I know very well my first impression is on rather limited data, my impression of the '63 season is based on the authors perception from the book "The Rivalry". He did great research and interviewed many players - but my take is second hand from him, and his angle may be bias. I've actually read many of the newspapers and watched all of those 70's NBA season recap documentaries, plus interviews with Jerry West and other teammates reflecting on those seasons etc - so I've got a better handle on how Wilt was publicly a received and the effort he was putting into games and being a team player at that particular time. I have not looked in depth to the '62-'63 season to such the extent. So aside from stats, the book I've read, and some individuals such as yourself who were there to see much of his career, I still don't have a great deal of information to go off of so I'm just presenting a different angle that is based on the (limited) evidence I have seen. As said my opinion is subject to change if a different light is shed based on more info.

[Pointguard]

[LIST=1] It could change if I learn more info that paints a different light on that season but right now it doesn't seem like he played team basketball... and basketball is a team sport not a 1 man sport. I understand what he was doing from first-hand observations, I watched Lebron on the Cavs put up great stats and "carry" his team but he also was aloof, disobedient, and frustrated. Ultimately, he left the Cavs for greener pasture. Wilt didn't have that option, but I bet he would have after that '63 season had he had the choice.
I guess this is an analysis subject to that time. A center is totally predicated on team ball these days. If a center isn't good with his guards he doesn't get the ball. Back then Wilt took on the center position and all of its responsibilities to the max, definitely to an extent nobody has ever approached, and with an energy nobody approached as well. The center position was the only clearly defined position at that time.

For me its hard to imagine a guy in the center position, that is alert, super productive, the most efficient, the most active and comprehensive in covering center responsibilities and saying he wasn't team balling it. Sure he could be hogging the ball but the coach can't make the guards pass him the ball. Demarcus Cousins alienates and has attitude problems while being a super talent. But if he was scoring 40% more than Durant is then all would be forgiven. DH had practically left his team all year and you don't hear this talk that he isn't among the top 3 players and DH has no separation from the pack of best players like Wilt did.

I have the privilege of watching Tyson Chandler day in and day out. The guy is definitely one of the best defensive centers and the best leader at the center position in the league. His attitude is bliss. His teammates in Dallas said the same thing about him. While the team has Amare, Mello and Lin the guy that has affected the team the most, or the guy that can be tied to all of the winning streaks is Tyson. If Tyson doesn't play well in those streaks the Knicks have no winning streaks. Bynum has attitude problems, disengages, goes aloof, gets frustrated but nobody is going to say team leader and inspirational leader Tyson is better than Bynum. Tyson does a great job on DH and Bynum when they play head to head...

...yet, Wilt was dominating Russell. I guess if I see a modern day example a lot of the stuff I read I could make sense of in today's game. I have a too hard of time trying to imagine Ben Wallace being considered better than Shaq (attitude, team dissension et al) that year. But with Wilt they are very selective in what they write. It's too easy to read four or five books about Wilt and not even know he could shoot or had a go to fade away move. If not for Red Holtzman I don't even know if anybody even talks about Wilt's range. Or even how he scored. And he's the greatest scorer ever.

When I look at your videos I see that Wilt blocked shots and kept them in bounds consistently (actually in your videos its practically all the time), like Russell did. Wilt was doing it in college but if you read, they will say Russell was unique because he blocked this way. I say that to say people are very thorough in the discrediting department. But somehow suck in describing how he scored, the bounce in his feet, the domination, the space he claimed underneath, how he could lock people down, etc. I just stopped reading whole books after awhile because it didn't match what I saw.

[Shade8780]

I don't about ye but I'm not arsed to read those 10 foot long posts by Jlauber and CavaliersFTW

[Pointguard]

I don't about ye but I'm not arsed to read those 10 foot long posts by Jlauber and CavaliersFTW
Ha, guess mines is 9 feet 12 inches!

[jlauber]

Well I should say that if I'm being too insistent with my opinion I have to be careful - Because I know very well my first impression is on rather limited data, my impression of the '63 season is based on the authors perception from the book "The Rivalry". He did great research and interviewed many players - but my take is second hand from him, and his angle may be bias. I've actually read many of the newspapers and watched all of those 70's NBA season recap documentaries, plus interviews with Jerry West and other teammates reflecting on those seasons etc - so I've got a better handle on how Wilt was publicly a received and the effort he was putting into games and being a team player at that particular time. I have not looked in depth to the '62-'63 season to such the extent. So aside from stats, the book I've read, and some individuals such as yourself who were there to see much of his career, I still don't have a great deal of information to go off of so I'm just presenting a different angle that is based on the (limited) evidence I have seen. As said my opinion is subject to change if a different light is shed based on more info.

Wilt's greatest season? Who really knows. I have argued that his 70-71 season, in a season in which he was less than a year removed from major knee surgery was his worst. It was his worst rebounding season, in both the regular season and playoffs. He had "ordinary" scoring (20.7 ppg) and efficency (.545) numbers (for him anyway.) And he had his worst post-season efficiency of his career. BUT, he also went H2H against a Kareem in TEN games that season (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season), and overall, he outplayed a Kareem who may very have played in his GREATEST season.

Statistically, Chamberlain's 62-63 season may have been his best season. 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and a then record .528 FG% (in a league that shot .441.) He also handed out 3.4 apg, which was pretty amazing considering that his teammates collectively shot .412.

In fact, Chamberlain LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistically recorded categories. Furthermore, he was in the top-5 in NINETEEN of those categories. AND, if they had officially recorded offensive and defensive rebounds, rebound percentages, blocked shots, and block percentages, he would either have led or been no worse than second, in those categories, as well.

Some here will downplay Advanced Stats, but in any case, Chamberlain, playing with arguably the worst roster ever assembled (SIXTEEN different players...and several would only be in the NBA for a couple of seasons)...LED the league in Win Shares, with a 20.9 rating. The next highest guy, Oscar, was at 16.8. Think about that...Wilt was directly responsible for about 70% of his team's wins. And his PER of 31.8 is the all-time record.

And I already brought up the NINE H2H's against Russell, and his EIGHT other HOF teammates (and HOF coach.) Other than two of those nine games (losses by 18 and 17), all of the games were exceptionally close (except for the Warriors one win...which was by 16 points.) And all of the games were relatively close going into the 4th quarters.

And I showed the incredible margins that Wilt had against Russell in the process. Over the course of those nine games, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, and outscored him by a 38.1 ppg to 14.2 ppg margin. I wish I had their shooting percentages, but all we can go by is that Wilt shot .528 in that season, and MVP Russell shot .432.

And Chamberlain just CRUSHED the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. He averaged 43.7 ppg against Bellamy in TEN H2H games.

And, how about his EIGHT H2H's against Red Kerr? Keep in mind that Kerr finished AHEAD of Wilt in the MVP balloting... In those eight games, Chamberlain outscored Kerr, per game, 43.1 ppg to 19.6 ppg. Included in those games were games in which Chamberlain had scoring margins of 61-21 and, get this, 70-14!

Now, some, like Bill Simmons, have suggested that Wilt's teammates were "hindered" by the fact that Wilt was "ball hogging." Ok, take a look at that roster, and then take a look at how those players fared AFTER Wilt.

Meschery? That 62-63 season was the BEST of his career.

Gola? He was shipped off to NY early in the season. His overall averages were nearly identical with NY as they were with Wilt. AND, Gola had his BEST season with Wilt in 59-60.

Attles? He had a solid season in 62-63, and his best season after Wilt was only marginally better.

Naulls? This one is interesting. Naulls was an outstanding scorer BEFORE Wilt. In fact, in the 61-62 season, he averaged 25 ppg. And he was averaging 16.9 ppg, on .413 shooting, when the Warriors traded for him, and with Wilt he averaged 11.0 ppg on .420 shooting. What is interesting, however, is that Simmons claimed that Naulls was awful with Wilt, and then Russell made him good again. Absolutely FALSE. The Warriors traded Naulls to Boston the very next season, and he averaged 9.8 ppg on .417 shooting. His last two seasons in Boston were at 10.5 ppg and 10.7 ppg, and on .384 and .402 shooting (and considerably less rpg than in the Wilt season.)

Kenny Sears? He was at the end of his career in 62-63. He played 51 games in the next season, part-time, and retired. BTW, Sears, who was a very good shooter, had his career high FG% WITH Wilt, shooting .533 in 62-63 (albeit, in 54 games, and in 14.5 mpg.)

Wayne Hightower? He averaged 7.4 ppg in that 62-63 season, and then had a career high the very next season, and WITH Wilt, at 13.2 ppg. After that, a slow decline, before joining the ABA late in his career.

George Lee? 7.0 ppg in 62-63. After that...his high season was 4.8 ppg (not counting ONE game in 66-67 in which he scored 12 points.)

Gary Phillips? Averaged 8.1 ppg in 62-63, and a career high (WITH Wilt) the very next season, at 10.0 ppg.

The rest of that roster was made up of players who were pure crap, and only played a very short time in their careers. Howie Montgomery, Hubie White, Fred Lacour, Ted Luckenbill, Dave Fedor, and Dave Gunther.

In fact, players like Phillips, Lee, and Hightower were borderline NBA players, as well. And Sears, Gola, and Naulls were nearing the ends of their careers in that 62-63 season.

Overall...not much talent.

And I have mentioned the fact that Wilt's new coach in the 63-64 season, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the Warriors, sans Wilt, and against some draft picks and retreads, and the Warriors lost. Hannum was appalled at just how little skills those players had. They had become so dependent on Chamberlain, that they completely forgot how to play the game.

Yet, Chamberlain then took that cast of mis-fits, along with rookie Nate Thurmond, who played 26 mpg, out of position, and only shot .395...to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals.

That 48-32 record is interesting too. Why? Chamberlain was traded at mid-season the very next season. The Warriors moved Nate into the center slot (where he would have a HOF career) finished 17-63, and were able to draft Rick Barry. So, the Warriors essentially replaced Wilt with BOTH Thurmond and Barry. They also added players like Jeff Mullins and Clyde Lee. And yet, all of those guys (and even Cazzie Russell in 72-73) never had a season together, that was better than their 47-35 mark in 72-73. Even in 66-67, when they made it to the Finals, they only went 44-38 (and were stomped by Wilt and his 68-13 Sixers in the Finals.)

Of course, after Chamberlain was traded to Philly, he led them to the best record in the league for three straight seasons, including a 68-13 title team in '67. And after Wilt was "traded" to LA before the 68-69 season, he then led the Lakers to FOUR Finals in his FIVE seasons in LA...including their first ever title in Los Angeles (on a team that went 69-13 and won 33 straight games.)

EVERY team that Wilt joined became better, to much better. And EVERY team he left became worse, to much worse.

[La Frescobaldi]

Wilt's greatest season? Who really knows. I have argued that his 70-71 season, in a season in which he was less than a year removed from major knee surgery was his worst. It was his worst rebounding season, in both the regular season and playoffs. He had "ordinary" scoring (20.7 ppg) and efficency (.545) numbers (for him anyway.) And he had his worst post-season efficiency of his career. BUT, he also went H2H against a Kareem in TEN games that season (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season), and overall, he outplayed a Kareem who may very have played in his GREATEST season.

Statistically, Chamberlain's 62-63 season may have been his best season. 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and a then record .528 FG% (in a league that shot .441.) He also handed out 3.4 apg, which was pretty amazing considering that his teammates collectively shot .412.

In fact, Chamberlain LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistically recorded categories. Furthermore, he was in the top-5 in NINETEEN of those categories. AND, if they had officially recorded offensive and defensive rebounds, rebound percentages, blocked shots, and block percentages, he would either have led or been no worse than second, in those categories, as well.

Some here will downplay Advanced Stats, but in any case, Chamberlain, playing with arguably the worst roster ever assembled (SIXTEEN different players...and several would only be in the NBA for a couple of seasons)...LED the league in Win Shares, with a 20.9 rating. The next highest guy, Oscar, was at 16.8. Think about that...Wilt was directly responsible for about 70% of his team's wins. And his PER of 31.8 is the all-time record.

And I already brought up the NINE H2H's against Russell, and his EIGHT other HOF teammates (and HOF coach.) Other than two of those nine games (losses by 18 and 17), all of the games were exceptionally close (except for the Warriors one win...which was by 16 points.) And all of the games were relatively close going into the 4th quarters.

And I showed the incredible margins that Wilt had against Russell in the process. Over the course of those nine games, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, and outscored him by a 38.1 ppg to 14.2 ppg margin. I wish I had their shooting percentages, but all we can go by is that Wilt shot .528 in that season, and MVP Russell shot .432.

And Chamberlain just CRUSHED the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. He averaged 43.7 ppg against Bellamy in TEN H2H games.

And, how about his EIGHT H2H's against Red Kerr? Keep in mind that Kerr finished AHEAD of Wilt in the MVP balloting... In those eight games, Chamberlain outscored Kerr, per game, 43.1 ppg to 19.6 ppg. Included in those games were games in which Chamberlain had scoring margins of 61-21 and, get this, 70-14!

Now, some, like Bill Simmons, have suggested that Wilt's teammates were "hindered" by the fact that Wilt was "ball hogging." Ok, take a look at that roster, and then take a look at how those players fared AFTER Wilt.

Meschery? That 62-63 season was the BEST of his career.

Gola? He was shipped off to NY early in the season. His overall averages were nearly identical with NY as they were with Wilt. AND, Gola had his BEST season with Wilt in 59-60.

Attles? He had a solid season in 62-63, and his best season after Wilt was only marginally better.

Naulls? This one is interesting. Naulls was an outstanding scorer BEFORE Wilt. In fact, in the 61-62 season, he averaged 25 ppg. And he was averaging 16.9 ppg, on .413 shooting, when the Warriors traded for him, and with Wilt he averaged 11.0 ppg on .420 shooting. What is interesting, however, is that Simmons claimed that Naulls was awful with Wilt, and then Russell made him good again. Absolutely FALSE. The Warriors traded Naulls to Boston the very next season, and he averaged 9.8 ppg on .417 shooting. His last two seasons in Boston were at 10.5 ppg and 10.7 ppg, and on .384 and .402 shooting (and considerably less rpg than in the Wilt season.)

Kenny Sears? He was at the end of his career in 62-63. He played 51 games in the next season, part-time, and retired. BTW, Sears, who was a very good shooter, had his career high FG% WITH Wilt, shooting .533 in 62-63 (albeit, in 54 games, and in 14.5 mpg.)

Wayne Hightower? He averaged 7.4 ppg in that 62-63 season, and then had a career high the very next season, and WITH Wilt, at 13.2 ppg. After that, a slow decline, before joining the ABA late in his career.

George Lee? 7.0 ppg in 62-63. After that...his high season was 4.8 ppg (not counting ONE game in 66-67 in which he scored 12 points.)

Gary Phillips? Averaged 8.1 ppg in 62-63, and a career high (WITH Wilt) the very next season, at 10.0 ppg.

The rest of that roster was made up of players who were pure crap, and only played a very short time in their careers. Howie Montgomery, Hubie White, Fred Lacour, Ted Luckenbill, Dave Fedor, and Dave Gunther.

In fact, players like Phillips, Lee, and Hightower were borderline NBA players, as well. And Sears, Gola, and Naulls were nearing the ends of their careers in that 62-63 season.

Overall...not much talent.

And I have mentioned the fact that Wilt's new coach in the 63-64 season, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the Warriors, sans Wilt, and against some draft picks and retreads, and the Warriors lost. Hannum was appalled at just how little skills those players had. They had become so dependent on Chamberlain, that they completely forgot how to play the game.

Yet, Chamberlain then took that cast of mis-fits, along with rookie Nate Thurmond, who played 26 mpg, out of position, and only shot .395...to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals.

That 48-32 record is interesting too. Why? Chamberlain was traded at mid-season the very next season. The Warriors moved Nate into the center slot (where he would have a HOF career) finished 17-63, and were able to draft Rick Barry. So, the Warriors essentially replaced Wilt with BOTH Thurmond and Barry. They also added players like Jeff Mullins and Clyde Lee. And yet, all of those guys (and even Cazzie Russell in 72-73) never had a season together, that was better than their 47-35 mark in 72-73. Even in 66-67, when they made it to the Finals, they only went 44-38 (and were stomped by Wilt and his 68-13 Sixers in the Finals.)

Of course, after Chamberlain was traded to Philly, he led them to the best record in the league for three straight seasons, including a 68-13 title team in '67. And after Wilt was "traded" to LA before the 68-69 season, he then led the Lakers to FOUR Finals in his FIVE seasons in LA...including their first ever title in Los Angeles (on a team that went 69-13 and won 33 straight games.)

EVERY team that Wilt joined became better, to much better. And EVERY team he left became worse, to much worse.

* The Warriors never recovered.
* The 76ers became the laughingstock of the league.
* The Lakers plunged to the worst trough in their history and that was WITH Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (ok maybe the 90s).

But what's really funny? Bill Simmons & his take on Chamberlain's teammates. He actually wrote down the idea that Chamberlain's teammates were as good as Bill Russell's teammates. And he expects people to believe it. What that means is this.......

Bill Simmons view of basketball:

Tom Meschery = John Havlicek
Tom Gola = Bill Sharman
Al Attles = Sam Jones
Guy Rodgers = Bob Cousy
Paul Arizin = Tommy Heinsohn


I don't remember Heinsohn as a player but I sure remember my older friends saying at one time he could have been in the argument for best player in the NBA but he was never in good enough shape to play a lot of minutes.

A lot of those Warriors were in the NBA right up to the 70s though:
Guy Rodgers was an All-Star a couple times,
Al Attles played quite a while,
Tom Meschery ..... he was the Warriors' expansion draftee to the Sonics the very next season after the Warriors went to the Finals

Anybody that thinks those guys were as good as Sam Jones, John Havlicek or Satch Sanders needs their head examined.

And contrary to the myth about Chamberlain being a poor teammate, he was actually one of the greatest teammates in history. If you look, you will find that the vast majority of Chamberlain's teammates had their career-best seasons with Chamberlain on their team.

Bill Simmons - The 1973 Sixers of Sportswriters

[Pointguard]

So true Fresco, Bill Simmons is disgusting with his hate. And he thinks he's being subliminal with it. I was in the book store going thru one of his massive volumes and realize how much I see his influence on basketball boards. Its bad for the history of the game.