Reggie Miller - HOF

[pauk]

Just want to congratulate my favorite player of all time!

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/02/hall-of-fame-2012/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[juju151111]

Miller time

[Faptastrophe]

One year too late, easily a first ballot hall of famer.

Spike Lee, U MAD?
http://www.abcdrduson.com/images/features/illustration/rapbasket_reggie_miller.jpg

Obligatory video (http://youtu.be/LDSF8otJH8Y).

[Tmuston Beltics]

Grats to him! Well deserved! :applause:

[srekaL]

I Always thought Reggie was a bit overrated. Just my opinion, nonetheless probably HOF worthy considering some of the people in it.

[hitmanyr2k]

It must have been a weak year for HOF candidates. I figured Miller would be on the 20 year waiting list. He was a great shooter and all but that's about it. He didn't revolutionize his position, was never considered the best of the best, weak at playmaking, rebounding, and defense. The guy was a one trick pony and doesn't have a single great accolade to his credit. That Knicks rivalry carried him a LONG way :oldlol:

[CLTHornets4eva]

I don't know how reggie miller could be any person's (not from Indiana) favorite player.

[Faptastrophe]

It must have been a weak year for HOF candidates. I figured Miller would be on the 20 year waiting list. He was a great shooter and all but that's about it. He didn't revolutionize his position, was never considered the best of the best, weak at playmaking, rebounding, and defense. The guy was a one trick pony and doesn't have a single great accolade to his credit. That Knicks rivalry carried him a LONG way :oldlol:
There was absolutely never any doubt about his Hall of Fame credentials. He was a special player- one of the best long range shooters and arguably one of the best clutch shooters in the game. The things he did in the playoffs are unreal and the 30 for 30 on him only shows a glimpse of his greatest moments.
The ulitmate prize, an NBA Championship, may have eluded him (close in 2000), but championship totals often don't tell the whole story. Reggie Miller was a real 'winner' in the truest sense of the word...and now the Hall of Fame has officially acknowledged that.

[StateOfMind12]

It must have been a weak year for HOF candidates. I figured Miller would be on the 20 year waiting list. He was a great shooter and all but that's about it. He didn't revolutionize his position, was never considered the best of the best, weak at playmaking, rebounding, and defense. The guy was a one trick pony and doesn't have a single great accolade to his credit. That Knicks rivalry carried him a LONG way :oldlol:
The HOF is a joke these days so it doesn't surprise me that Miller got in. I am surprised though that he got in before Bernard King. King was far better and far superior player than Miller was. King also has far more awards and accolades than Miller did. I guess Miller's longevity put him up over King in the HOF voting.

It's also funny too because on the other site I occasionally view and post (not as much ISH), they have Reggie Miller is a top 40-45 player of all-time which I find extremely laughable. :oldlol:


Just want to congratulate my favorite player of all time!

:roll:

[305Baller]

to Miller


:cheers:

[AAckley1]

Jordan has mentioned multiple times that he wishes he was as clutch & could shoot as a well as Reggie. He's possibly the greatest "catch & shoot" guard of all time. Something should be said for the fact that MANY championship teams in the 90s had to battle Reggie & the Pacers for 6 or 7 games in the ECF or ECSF. Had Reggie ever had a complimentary player on the level of Pippen or Malone, it's no question he goes to more than just the 00' Finals.

Reggie was a truly polarizing figure. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't either love or hate Reggie. On top of that, Reggie essentially saved basketball in Indianapolis, as the Pacers had been routine lottery dwellers & were hemorraging cash until he arrived.

[miller-time]

:cheers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxWfeHIgIt0

[JellyBean]

Just want to congratulate my favorite player of all time!

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/02/hall-of-fame-2012/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Pretty cool that you are a Reggie Miller fan. The dude was a stone cold player. Ice water in his veins. I always loved the fact that he was a gamer. Congrats Reggie Miller

[jbryan1984]

He should of been in the first time but, congrats Regg. I still got my Reggie jersey in mint condition.

[TheBigVeto]

Congratulations, very well deserved.

[DukeDelonte13]

i don't deny he deserves it but i hate that as*hole. :coleman:

[pauk]

It must have been a weak year for HOF candidates. I figured Miller would be on the 20 year waiting list. He was a great shooter and all but that's about it. He didn't revolutionize his position, was never considered the best of the best, weak at playmaking, rebounding, and defense. The guy was a one trick pony and doesn't have a single great accolade to his credit. That Knicks rivalry carried him a LONG way :oldlol:

Reggie was arguably the greatest clutch player ever my man, a cold blooded assassin that would just chill until there is some seconds left on the game.... For 18 years Reggie would every single game hit some kindof clutch shot (win or lose).... every.. single.. game...

He was one of those guys that would with full intent troll you... when it matters the most he is "best of the best"......

He was one of those guys that would drop 20 points on you most of the time....... where as most of those points would come in the 4th quarter / clutch....

Another thing... Reggie was not a shotjacker/chucker... the highest amount of FG attempts he ever took was 29........ and that time he scored 57 points....

He was not out there to pass, rebound or defend... he came out there with 1 thing in his mind, to swish, to hit the gamewinning shots and then laugh while watching you choke.... :D

He was a specialist.... a secret weapon, deployed only in the 4th quarter.... and he was a HECK of a character haha

[b1imtf]

Reggie was arguably the greatest clutch player ever my man, a cold blooded assassin that would just chill until there is some seconds left on the game.... For 18 years Reggie would every single game hit some kindof clutch shot (win or lose).... every.. single.. game...

He was one of those guys that would with full intent troll you... when it matters the most he is "best of the best"......

He was one of those guys that would drop 20 points on you most of the time....... where as most of those points would came in the 4th quarter / clutch....

Another thing... Reggie was not a shotjacker/chucker... the highest amount of FG attempts he ever took was 29........ and that time he scored 57 points....

He was not out there to pass, rebound or defend... he came out there with 1 thing in his mind, to hit the gamewinning shots and then laugh at you.... :D
The opposite of your favorite player now :coleman:

[Whoah10115]

In his 3rd year he averaged 24.6PPG on almost 52% shooting and some 42% or something from 3, and his usual 88% plus from the FT line. He had those kind of percentages for a few years, with 22.6PPG and a couple over 21 and a few over 20 and just under 20. He even did a 50/40/90 or two.



And he shot those percentages off screens. That's crazy. No offense was ever really drawn up for him thru the game. The offense was what it was and he just kept running. As evidenced by those seasons in the early 90's (and his playoffs) this guy was more than capable of being amongst the league leaders in scoring, if he actually got to do more than just run all day.



In the playoffs, he did more. He wasn't just clutch. His averages were crazy. Not a good defender but a guy who knew how to play, how to flop (lol, I hate that), knew how to space and move. Not a great passer but a player who made the right ones.



Easy Hall-of-Famer, no matter what anyone says. A great player. Did it forever and with one team. You can question just how great he was, if he was ever as good as Richmond, that's fine. But he was a great player and his career is a great and clear Hall-of-Fame one.

[DuMa]

oh great. now he can act even more pompous and entitled during his color commentary now. if that was even possible.

[pauk]

The opposite of your favorite player now :coleman:

The opposite of anybody in the NBA today imo :D

[pauk]

In his 3rd year he averaged 24.2PPG on almost 52% shooting and some 42% or something from 3, and his usual 88% plus from the FT line. He had those kind of percentages for a few years, with 22.2PPG and a couple over 21 and a few over 20 and just under 20. He even did a 50/40/90 or two.



And he shot those percentages off screens. That's crazy. No offense was ever really drawn up for him thru the game. The offense was what it was and he just kept running. As evidenced by those seasons in the early 90's (and his playoffs) this guy was more than capable of being amongst the league leaders in scoring, if he actually got to do more than just run all day.



In the playoffs, he did more. He wasn't just clutch. His averages were crazy. Not a good defender but a guy who knew how to play, how to flop (lol, I hate that), knew how to space and move. Not a great passer but a player who made the right ones.



Easy Hall-of-Famer, no matter what anyone says. A great player. Did it forever and with one team. You can question just how great he was, if he was ever as good as Richmond, that's fine. But he was a great player and his career is a great and clear Hall-of-Fame one.

:applause:

[pauk]

Reggie was also the best of the ball player / screen abuser in NBA history...... the bag of tricks he used to get open was just beauty to behold and hilarious (watching him exhaust his opponent and lose him around the screens)....

Ray Allen & Richard Hamilton did admit a couple of times that they "stole" all Reggies tricks...

Kobe Bryant for this sole reason also said: "Reggie was the toughest player i ever had to guard"..... and that means alot considering he did guard Michael Jordan aswell...

"run like a butterfly, sting like a bee"... explains Reggie alot :D

[b1imtf]

The opposite of anybody in the NBA today imo :D
I was just messing with you ahah :cheers:

[LockoutOver11]

dude wasnt phased in the playoffs... true 90's player. Jordan scared me, next was Reggie.

[IamRAMBO24]

Easily the best shooter to ever play the game.

[L.Kizzle]

LOL, at him not being hall of fame worthy.

[StateOfMind12]

pauk, you are a big Reggie Miller fan "supposedly", where would you say Reggie ranks all-time? Top 50? Top 60? Top 75?

I want to know your opinion and if you are as ridiculous as other members on other sites on their thoughts on Reggie Miller. :oldlol:


LOL, at him not being hall of fame worthy.
With the way the HOF standards currently are, he is clearly a HOF player.
With the way the HOF standards should be, he honestly isn't a HOF player.


Easily the best shooter to ever play the game.
Ever heard of Ray Allen? Ray Allen was better than Reggie Miller at everything except the clutch. Reggie's trademark is the clutch, if he wasn't a clutch player, he would be about as relevant as Mitch Richmond currently is.

[pauk]

pauk, you are a big Reggie Miller fan "supposedly", where would you say Reggie ranks all-time? Top 50? Top 60? Top 75?

I want to know your opinion and if you are as ridiculous as other members on other sites on their thoughts on Reggie Miller. :oldlol:

Damn... well.. as a big Reggie homer i would want to rank him as high as possible lol...

But to be fully honest with you considering his career accomplishments i think he has no room inside Top 50... i had him 45-50 back in 2004.... but now with the addition of guys like Nash, Kidd, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Nowitzki, Wade and so on and so on inside the Top 50 i think its hard to keep him inside of Top 50... but he deserves to be right there knocking on the door.... 50-60 somewhere....

If we are talking about him only as an individual player.. in his prime... not career accomplishments.... he is most definitely in top 50 best individual players ever... according to me at least...

He was one of those guys that would "play mediocre" and look like a simple shooter during the 3 first quarters.......... but when the 4th quarter comes and there is some minute or seconds left.......... he was best of the best player/clutch shooter.... i have seen only Larry Bird shoot in the clutch like that and be relentless like that hitting perimeter dagger jumpshots like that over and over like not a single fakk was given....... (Jordan was more of a clutch player, rather than a clutch shooter)

[L.Kizzle]

With the way the HOF standards currently are, he is clearly a HOF player.
With the way the HOF standards should be, he honestly isn't a HOF player.
How should they be?

Only Multiple All-NBA 1st teamers? In that case, there would be about 25 Hall of Famers from the NBA?

[Whoah10115]

Reggie Miller SHOULD be a Hall-of-Famer. That's what he is.

[pauk]

So much goes for stats when you define Reggie as a individual player.... let me try to explain...

Lets say Jordan vs Reggie play.. Bulls vs Pacers........ Michael Jordan goes of for 50 points, torches Reggie who defends him........ everybody goes "Damn Jordan is sooooo goooood! Reggie sux!!"....... all of the sudden its the 4th quarter and Reggie goes absolutely ham and hits the gamewinner and then shows Jordan the "choke sign".... he wins the game, has only 20 points........ lets you think you can win, lets you do your fancy thing and then unleashes his weapon when it matters the most and steals the game..... and then he mocks you like: "Nice 50 point game.... pffft!"

Hehe... did not happen like that exactly, but you get my point... Reggie was that type of a player, competitor and character/trashtalker.....

Now... if you watched that game you would know Reggie as an individual player was easily top 5-10 in the league (and doing that his entire career i would say easily top 50 individual player of all time)......... that he was a damn trolling assassin :D

But if you only saw the boxscore you would think he was nowhere near Top 10 in the league and nowhere close to Top 50 best individual players ever.....

Understand what i mean?

[CLTHornets4eva]

****Random thought****


In a wierd way, Reggie is a better college commentator than NBA commentator.

[pauk]

****Random thought****


In a wierd way, Reggie is a better college commentator than NBA commentator.

I dont think he is that good of a commentator, but hey... i dont mind having my favorite player of all time around...

Its funny because he sounds so much like a "geeky" good guy... and he is and always was that of the court .... but on the court... he was a completely different human, he turned into this cold blooded evil villain.... who everybody hated, except that one guy who found it all ridicilously entertaining (me!)

Watching Reggie WIN was like watching a Villain movie where the villain ends up killing everybody, where there is no happy ending for the "lead role good guys"... :oldlol:

[LoneyROY7]

You should have started this thread using your SunsCaptain account...no need to post non-LeBron related topics under this username.

[TheBigVeto]

.

He was one of those guys that would drop 20 points on you most of the time....... where as most of those points would come in the 4th quarter / clutch....

Another thing... Reggie was not a shotjacker/chucker... the highest amount of FG attempts he ever took was 29........ and that time he scored 57 points....



In other words, he's the anti Kobe & Lebron.

[TOUCH MY BODY]

Loved watching Reggie play in his prime. He was a dirty ass player, but you can't deny how lethal he was, especially from downtown when he was hot. Well deserved :applause:

[pauk]

My favorite picture of Reggie... just look at everybody in the crowd...
They facial expressions before he even recieves the ball, they know exactly what is gona happen before it even happens... and what they thought would happen happened exactly the way they thought would happen.... :oldlol:

Picture defines Reggies career the best.. spike lee, crowd, msg, knicks, reggie in the clutch / miller time, jump shooting, drama and boom baby!...

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/people/m/miller_reggie/1998_0510knicks.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

And he shot those percentages off screens. That's crazy. No offense was ever really drawn up for him thru the game. The offense was what it was and he just kept running. As evidenced by those seasons in the early 90's (and his playoffs) this guy was more than capable of being amongst the league leaders in scoring, if he actually got to do more than just run all day.

So you think guys like Larry Brown and Larry Bird who coached him just didnt know how talented he was and limited him because of it or what?

What do you think his coaches failed to notice that had him forever running off screens?

And you think those screens were not called plays? You think those staggered screens and such were by chance? That Dale Davis was often 18 feet from the basket because he might be looking to shoot? Or he built that wall on the baseline 3000 times while breaking an offense designed to post up Smits?

Reggie had as much set offense run for him as almost anyone ive ever seen. He just didnt shoot much because running off screens doesnt get you room for 25 shots a night. He worked hard and got looks when he got them.

But he didnt run off 40 screens a night while the offense was setup to do something else.

[Heavincent]

Awesome. One of my favorite players of all time :applause:

And I actually enjoy his commentary. Reggie along with Kevin Harlan = :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kileer7]

Shout out to Reggie Miller. A tenacious player and one of the best trash talkers.

[Ne 1]

Reggie gained his recognition through a few famous clutch buckets and through the Pacers bruising playoff battles against the Knicks. He had very little individual accomplishments or accolades.

Never understood why everyone loves this guy so much. I honestly think most people are just being nostalgic. As a player, Miller was so limited. Couldn't rebound, couldn't defend, couldn't create his own shot off the dribble (other than a step-back), didn't drive and wasn't an exceptional scorer. Hell, he was a "shooter" with no mid-range game. All of that "clutch" was done versus one team, (one series in particular) that his team seldom won against.

Reggie Miller is a prime example of the power of "clutch" and New York. If he doesn't have that legendary game against the Knicks (they lost the series by the way) he's not looked upon in the same way.

He's living off the whole "he killed the Knicks" thing, and the sad part is I guarantee if you go up to 10 people and ask them who won that series at least 6 out of 10 will say the Pacers.

[Ne 1]

My favorite picture of Reggie... just look at everybody in the crowd...
They facial expressions before he even recieves the ball, they know exactly what is gona happen before it even happens... and what they thought would happen happened exactly the way they thought would happen.... :oldlol:

Picture defines Reggies career the best.. spike lee, crowd, msg, knicks, reggie in the clutch / miller time, jump shooting, drama and boom baby!...

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/people/m/miller_reggie/1998_0510knicks.jpg


This is my point. I think Reggie has become overrated due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Playing for the same team entire career, big shots, memorable playoff moments, Pacers/Knicks and Miller/Spike Lee rivalry etc. I think Reggie has become overrated though due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Might seem strange that this is a factor, but when people think of the Pacers they immediately think of Reggie Miller. He's so fondly remembered for his game 5 at MSG, but the Pacers lost that series and he went 15-39 in the final 2 games. Was outplayed by John Starks when they had a home game that would have taken them to the Finals.

It's a shame that Miller is more revered than players like Dominique, Clyde, and even Mitch Richmond who was the better SG during their time.

[L.Kizzle]

This is my point. I think Reggie has become overrated due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Playing for the same team entire career, big shots, memorable playoff moments, Pacers/Knicks and Miller/Spike Lee rivalry etc. I think Reggie has become overrated though due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Might seem strange that this is a factor, but when people think of the Pacers they immediately think of Reggie Miller.

It's a shame that Miller is more revered than players like Dominique, Clyde, and even Mitch Richmond who was the better SG during their time.
Did you just say he is overrated do to his exposure? How the hell do you think he got that exposure ...

[bluechox2]

too early for him, he deserved to wait longer but get in eventually

[Round Mound]

This is my point. I think Reggie has become overrated due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Playing for the same team entire career, big shots, memorable playoff moments, Pacers/Knicks and Miller/Spike Lee rivalry etc. I think Reggie has become overrated though due to his exposure more than his overall skills. Might seem strange that this is a factor, but when people think of the Pacers they immediately think of Reggie Miller. He's so fondly remembered for his game 5 at MSG, but the Pacers lost that series and he went 15-39 in the final 2 games. Was outplayed by John Starks when they had a home game that would have taken them to the Finals.

It's a shame that Miller is more revered than players like Dominique, Clyde, and even Mitch Richmond who was the better SG during their time.

Agree

If Reggie Miller is a HOF Player

Then...guys like:

Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Sidney Moncrief
Rolando Blackman
Alex English
Bernard King
and more....

Should be in the HOF

[L.Kizzle]

Agree

If Reggie Miller is a HOF Player

Then...guys like:

Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Sidney Moncrief
Rolando Blackman
Alex English
Bernard King
and more....

Should be in the HOF
Most of those players were better all-around, straight up players than Reggie (and Alex English was a first ballot HOF in 1996), but did any of them put fear in the opponents eye like Reggie. Do they have any moments that Reggie had, just one.

Bernard King is the only one, and not near as many as Reggie.

[Haymaker]

Most idiots that are bashing Miller never saw him play. He was a solid defender, one of the best long range shooters ever, consistent scorer and clutch as f u c k.

[Teanett]

he had some big moments, so definately hof worthy.
but if he gets in, so should john starks!!!
king, richmond, payton, spree, penny were all better.

[1987_Lakers]

Most overrated player in NBA history along with Pete Maravich.

[bingoa]

Chris Mullin and Bernard king should definitely be ahead of this guy in the HOF.

[Teanett]

Chris Mullin and Bernard king should definitely be ahead of this guy in the HOF.
mullin's in.

[Teanett]

is zo mourning a hof'er?
because if miller is, zo should get in too.

[bizil]

I think Reggie was a first ballot caliber HOFer in the grand scheme. In terms of guys who were great shooter-scorer types, u have guys like Reggie, West, Bird, Ray Ray, Dirk, Ellis, Rice, Peja, etc. Reggie's all around game wasn't as good as Bird, West, or Ray's. But his all around game stands up to guys like Peja, Rice, and Ellis. But Reggie had a clutch factor in making big shots on the level of Bird, West, and Ray. Or hell probably even arguably higher.

His scoring numbers weren't as high consistent year in and year out like Bird, West, or Ray. But he gave u 18-20 points for a hell of a long stretch peaking at right around 25 points a game for a season. I actually think Miller focused on spreading the floor for those Indiana teams to a detriment. He has a great midrange game and used it to set up some underrated slashing ability. And we all know he was a master moving without the ball. But it seemed he would play within the flow of the game more than the other great scorers. But in the clutch he would takeover a game and become a true alpha dog scoring the rock.

And of course in the playoffs he put the foot on the gas more scoring wise. Miller rang up 25,279 career points. Amongst guards he ranks ONLY behind MJ, Kobe, and Big O. That right there if anything makes him a true HOFer. And u add those clutch and iconic playoff moments, it makes Reggie an easy HOFer. And he should have been in on the first ballot! It's about the impact u make on the court. He might not have been as good all around has some of his peers at the SG. But coming down the stretch and taking over a game scoring, the only SG u would take over Miller in his era was MJ.

[Teanett]

But coming down the stretch and taking over a game scoring, the only SG u would take over Miller in his era was MJ.

richmond, spree, payton, jalen i'd take before him, even allan houston (homer pick).
a couple of glorified msg moments dont change that.

[bizil]

richmond, spree, payton, jalen i'd take before him, even allan houston (homer pick).
a couple of glorified msg moments dont change that.

I wouldn't call those glorified moments. Those were flat out iconic moments! And Miller have other moments besides that against other teams in playoff situations. Of the guys u named, Payton and Richmond are the only two I would clearly take over Reggie peak value wise. The guys u named are better all around players, but that doesn't mean they are better players. And in the career sense (which is the list which matters most), Reggie's career SMOKES THEM ALL other Payton. Reggie has the fourth most points OF ANY GUARD IN NBA HISTORY! That right there alone is worthy of HOF induction! U just can't gloss over that shit.

[fefe]

Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen > Reggie Miller

But I think all these guys deserve to be selected to the HOF.

[bizil]

Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen > Reggie Miller

But I think all these guys deserve to be selected to the HOF.

Now those guys peak value wise I would take over Reggie. Career wise, Pierce and Allen are on Reggie's level and probably have eclipsed him as well. Vince and T Mac haven't had the career that Reggie has had though. But I think all of the guys u named with the exception of Mac deserve HOF induction. Mac peak value wise is a top 4-5 SG of all time in my book. But he caught the injury bug big time right when he should have been putting together 3-4 more HOF caliber years. But I hope Mac does get in, he's one of my favorite player of all time. And Mac revolutionized the SG spot.

[Teanett]

I wouldn't call those glorified moments. Those were flat out iconic moments! And Miller have other moments besides that against other teams in playoff situations. Of the guys u named, Payton and Richmond are the only two I would clearly take over Reggie peak value wise. The guys u named are better all around players, but that doesn't mean they are better players. And in the career sense (which is the list which matters most), Reggie's career SMOKES THEM ALL other Payton. Reggie has the fourth most points OF ANY GUARD IN NBA HISTORY! That right there alone is worthy of HOF induction! U just can't gloss over that shit.

of course he scored a lot of points because he played for a million years.
mark jackson is 3rd in assists all time, should he be in too?

[Myth]

Favorite player ever! :rockon:

[bizil]

of course he scored a lot of points because he played for a million years.
mark jackson is 3rd in assists all time, should he be in too?

LMBAO! U can't compare Reggie and Mark Jackson! The combo of Reggie's 25,000+ points AND his iconic playoff moments get him in the HOF. And Reggie also had a great college career at UCLA as well. It's the combo of those factors that get him in the HOF. Mark doesn't have as much ammo to throw at voters as Reggie does.

[Teanett]

LMBAO! U can't compare Reggie and Mark Jackson! The combo of Reggie's 25,000+ points AND his iconic playoff moments get him in the HOF.

why not?

-mark is 3rd assists ALL-TIME
-reggie is 14th points ALL-TIME
-mark 1 x all-star, 1 rookie of the year
-reggie 5 x all-star

mark jackson is also on the 1987 ncaa 2nd team

:confusedshrug:

btw his "iconic" moments are really just glorified.
"the 25 point quarter" they played in new york, with spike lee in the crowd. if he does that against washington, nobody remembers. the pacers lost that series.
"8 points in 9 seconds" same scenario. this time pacers win... in the 2nd round but get the boot against orlando.

[Kblaze8855]

Really....Reggie much of his career was no better than James Harden on a good night now. But we all knew he would make the hall. Its the hall of fame. Not the hall of great. Hes not the worst player there either. The worst to make it lately for NBA reasons. But not the worst.

Crazy Reggie makes it in acouple years and Dennis Johnson was a finals MVP with like 2 other rings all as akey player and an all nba first team player and one of the most respected all around playes ever...and he had to die to get in.

Greatness doesnt do it without being known. Reggie was low on greatness but high on fame. He was alock.

[Teanett]

http://warroomsports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Allen-Iverson.jpg

[3peated]

rofl i thought this title was REGGIE MILLER - HOE, was funnier until i opened it

[pauk]

Agree

If Reggie Miller is a HOF Player

Then...guys like:

Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Sidney Moncrief
Rolando Blackman
Alex English
Bernard King
and more....

Should be in the HOF


1 word...

LONGEVITY

[Whoah10115]

Other guys may have been better than Reggie all-around, but when it came down to it they weren't. Reggie averaged 23.5PPG in the playoffs until his last 3 years, when he was well past it.



He was always an elite scorer when it mattered. I'll take that.




Payton and Mourning are Hall-of-Famers.

[RRR3]

Wait, why on earth is Gary Payton not in the HOF yet? If he's not a first ballot, who the **** is? :facepalm
Zo should and will make it too, but not first ballot IMO. C-Webb eventually too.

[MasterDurant24]

Good for him, but Reggie Miller was a good player, not a great one. He shouldn't have made it over Bernard King imo.

[bizil]

Good for him, but Reggie Miller was a good player, not a great one. He shouldn't have made it over Bernard King imo.

I think BK should have been in the HOF long ago. Even though he had injuries that riddled his career, he still did enough to get in the HOF. His peak value was so high. He was the 2nd best SF on the planet behind Bird.

But Reggie's career was better than King's. People say Reggie is overrated due to longevity. But at the same time being a very good-great player player for a long time has to count for something. And those iconic playoff moments Reggie has counts as well. Doing what he did on the big stages surely helps his case. And to be frank, Reggie should really be more around 30,000 points. He was actually a very unselfish player who could have taken a game by the throat much earlier in a game during the regular season. But he waited until crunch time to takeover. Reggie's highest scoring average for a season was 25 a night. Most of his other prime seasons had him between 18-20 points. However due to his alpha dog shit and great shooting, Miller should have been putting up 25 a night more often.

[For_Three]

Awesome! He was a fantastic player.

Rumor has it that he never lost a game of HORSE.

[L.Kizzle]

why not?

-mark is 3rd assists ALL-TIME
-reggie is 14th points ALL-TIME
-mark 1 x all-star, 1 rookie of the year
-reggie 5 x all-star

mark jackson is also on the 1987 ncaa 2nd team

:confusedshrug:

btw his "iconic" moments are really just glorified.
"the 25 point quarter" they played in new york, with spike lee in the crowd. if he does that against washington, nobody remembers. the pacers lost that series."8 points in 9 seconds" same scenario. this time pacers win... in the 2nd round but get the boot against orlando.
Lol, he scores 25 points vs the Knicks (best D that season) in New York City, at Madison Square Garden. Yet if he would have done it vs a lessor Bullets team who didn't make the playoffs, it wouldn't mean much.

[L.Kizzle]

Really....Reggie much of his career was no better than James Harden on a good night now. But we all knew he would make the hall. Its the hall of fame. Not the hall of great. Hes not the worst player there either. The worst to make it lately for NBA reasons. But not the worst.

Crazy Reggie makes it in acouple years and Dennis Johnson was a finals MVP with like 2 other rings all as akey player and an all nba first team player and one of the most respected all around playes ever...and he had to die to get in.

Greatness doesnt do it without being known. Reggie was low on greatness but high on fame. He was alock.
James Harden, really?

I know you don't like Reggie, but now one fears James Harden except his barber.

[L.Kizzle]

1 word...

LONGEVITY
What would be the differene if he would have retired in 2000 except 2005?

Nothin', he'd still be a 5 time All-Star, All-NBA teamer, Gold Medalist, NBA Finalist, Over 20,000 points, 3 point leader and still have all of his great playoff moments (except the New Jersey series.)

I guess his peers overrate him too, the listed him as one of the next top 50 a few years back.

[StateOfMind12]

James Harden, really?

I know you don't like Reggie, but now one fears James Harden except his barber.
Do you think Manu Ginobili at his peak was better than Reggie Miller at his? If so then you probably also believe or should believe (if your personal bias doesn't get in the way) that James Harden is also better than Reggie Miller. I actually do think Manu at his peak was better than Reggie at his so I do think Manu was better and more fearful than Reggie was.

James Harden plays exactly like Manu Ginobili did in his peak. I would say Harden was more athletic though but he isn't utilized as much as Ginobili was during his peak.

Asking who is higher in your all-time list is different than asking who was a better player.

[L.Kizzle]

Do you think Manu Ginobili at his peak was better than Reggie Miller at his? If so then you probably also believe or should believe (if your personal bias doesn't get in the way) that James Harden is also better than Reggie Miller. I actually do think Manu at his peak was better than Reggie at his so I do think Manu was better and more fearful than Reggie was.

James Harden plays exactly like Manu Ginobili did in his peak. I would say Harden was more athletic though but he isn't utilized as much as Ginobili was during his peak.

Asking who is higher in your all-time list is different than asking who was a better player.
Right now, Josh harden is no different than a prime Corey Maggette or Jason Richardson.

[hawkfan]

Just want to congratulate my favorite player of all time!

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/04/02/hall-of-fame-2012/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Plus 1. Well deserved.

[Kblaze8855]

I know you don't like Reggie, but now one fears James Harden except his barber.

Of what relevance is fear when you score 19 points and lose in the playoffs?

Harden isnt better than Reggie. But Manu is.

[knickswin]

why isn't bernard king in the hall of fame. definitely better than this nerd.

[iDefend5]

Of what relevance is fear when you score 19 points and lose in the playoffs?

Why do you act as if it was HIS fault that he lost?

Miller usually did perform quite well in the post-season and you can go check his playoff ppg and his FG%, EFG%, TS%, whatever to validate that. Reggie played exceptionally well in the post-season.

[rodman91]

Reggie > Manu. :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

Whoever was at fault...he wasnt doing anything heroic to prevent it. People make a big deal out of dude having a 30 point game here and there(20% of his playoff games to be exact). Hes a hall of fame player for nothing but his scoring. A player like that scoring 30 isnt anything to make a big deal of. Im reasonably sure Ben Gordons playoff career high is higher.

I dont care when Reggie has 27 a game in 45 minutes a night while being swept and getting outplayed by Reggie Lewis. Kendall Gill can score 27 in 45 minutes.

Hes a hall of fame player for no reason but his offense. By the standards of players to get the attention he did many of his big moments were pretty minor. Score 32 in a game 4 or something in a series he loses..we hear about it for 20 years.

Terry Porter drops 40 something on Stockton in the playoffs or has multiple huge games vs the Spurs in the playoffs 99% of ISH has to google to find out what im talking about.

His fame has always been disportionate to his performances. So many great players worked just as hard played as well or better and will never get an ESPN special or into the HOF because nobody cared.

Reggie was a really good player who drew attention....usually scored like 19 points...didnt do anything else.

And hes famous forever because of the dramatic ways it unfolded mostly due to New York being a big deal.

He didnt actually do...very much.

Actually put his resume next to most hall of fame players to enter the league the last 30 years and its almost a mockery.

Compare his game to the same players...its laughable.

He is a hall of famer. He deserves it based on his fame and how the hall works. He wouldnt be in a HOF that just includes elite players. But the HOF as it is...he was a lock to make it.

But anyone acting like it was just a matter of how good he was at basketball is just choosing to look the other way and disregard the greatness of a lot of players who should be mentioned first if the issue is all time greats.

[Whoah10115]

Again, just look at his numbers in the playoffs. This guy was a monster.



If clutch means scoring a lot of points in decisive games, against better teams, winning, getting to a Finals, and only losing to better teams...then I'll take clutch.

[HighFlyer23]

he's still annoying as fvck when commenting games ... or anytime he opens his mouth

King deserves it over him btw

[Kblaze8855]

Monster? His numbers make him amonster? He averaged 25 a game in 1 playoff run that wasnt a first round loss. That isnt being a monster.

Thats lowering the standards of what being dominant is for the sake of making a good player look great.

Imnot going to act like 22/3/3 is some outstanding level of production for a HOF guard for his playoff career(not counting his last few when he was at like10-14).

People post single year numbers which are 3 games...1 game...4 games. For his pre 03 playoff career(cutoff because in 02 he did prety well..like 24 a game) he was hardly lighting the world on fire. Im sure someone can do the math and tell me exactly what it is as if im to be blown awat by 22or 23ppg from a hall of famer who did nothing but score.

But its just not that major. Nothing approaching monster status.

[Abd El-Krim]

My favorite picture of Reggie... just look at everybody in the crowd...
They facial expressions before he even recieves the ball, they know exactly what is gona happen before it even happens... and what they thought would happen happened exactly the way they thought would happen.... :oldlol:

Picture defines Reggies career the best.. spike lee, crowd, msg, knicks, reggie in the clutch / miller time, jump shooting, drama and boom baby!...

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/people/m/miller_reggie/1998_0510knicks.jpg

Awesome picture. Loved watching Pacer games growing up - Reggie was a cold blooded assassin. Would hit game winners from 28 feet like they were layups. But I can't help but challenge the above picture as far as defining his career with this...

http://www.ultimate-youth-basketball-guide.com/images/tayshaun-prince-blocks-reggie-miller-21357614.jpg

That hurt. Bad.

[iDefend5]

Whoever was at fault...he wasnt doing anything heroic to prevent it.
What would you have wanted him to do?

He scored about 20-30+ ppg in the post-season with super high efficiency, he always shot a TS% in the high 50s or in the low 60s which is not just good, it's great.

You also have to factor in how Reggie played against GOAT level defenses such as the 90s Knicks defense and the 90s Bulls defense and he still put up huge numbers.

Did he win with those big numbers? No, but how much of that is it in his control? You don't think it's possible to single handily win a playoff series and single handily win a championship do you? I'm sure there are some players capable of doing that but these are the top 5-10 players in the league of all-time, not HOF level players or even elite players which is what Reggie is.

1993 vs NYK's, 31.5/3/3 on 69% TS
1994 vs Shaq/Penny, 29/3/4 on 68% TS
1994 vs NYK's 25/2/5 on 58% TS
1995 vs NYK's 23/4/3 on 58% TS
1995 vs Shaq/Penny 26/3/1 on 67% TS
1998 vs NYK's 25/2/1 on 61% TS
1998 vs Jordan/Pippen, 17/2/2 on 58% TS
2000 vs Sixers, 26/2/3 on 67% TS
2000 vs NYK, 22/2/2 on 56% TS
2000 vs Lakers, 24/3/4 on 59% TS
2001 vs Sixers, 31/3/2.5 on 61% TS
2002 vs Nets, 24/3/3 on 63% TS

Just to be exact if you were interested in his numbers. Those were his averages in a post-season series against those teams.

Maybe i'm underrating his supporting cast?

[Myth]

Right now, Josh harden is no different than a prime Corey Maggette or Jason Richardson.

Who is Josh Harden? :oldlol:

[L.Kizzle]

Who is Josh Harden? :oldlol:
See, I don't even know his name, and he's better than Reggie?

[NugzHeat3]

Reggie Miller in his prime (whatever that may be since he was roughly the same player for a long time) lost to guys like Jeff Hornacek, Reggie Lewis, Dan Majerle, Kendall Gill, Jeff Malone, Kenny Anderson, Eddie Jones, Terrell Brandon, Sprewell, Blaylock, his own teammate Mark Jackson once and Steve Smith in All-NBA balloting. If anyone asks, I have complete results.

He flatout wasn't considered that good. Obviously, his major argument stems from his post-season play so All-NBA is irrelevant there but he's pretty overrated there too.

For all his clutch play, his career is littered with moments where he couldn't create his own shot in crunchtime where his skillset came into the equation, got fatigued due to working off-ball and running around so much or faced a tough nosed defender who'd pressure him, stick with him and not get baited into any of his cheap tactics.

Also, for a guy really "feared," pretty interesting how Phil Jackson and Larry Brown said Derrick McKey was the best player on the Pacers.

He's pretty easy to appreciate only if people didn't stop overrating him to the nth degree.

[StateOfMind12]

He flatout wasn't considered that good. Obviously, his major argument stems from his post-season play so All-NBA is irrelevant there but he's pretty overrated there too.

Could you explain here?

I do think All-NBA teams are practically worthless. One because as you already stated it is only for the regular season and two because it is just the media's opinion. I prefer making an opinion on my mine and not having others do it for me. The only difference between voters in the All-NBA Team and me or some other fan is the fact that they have a journalism degree and that is it. There opinion on sports/basketball is no more valuable than mine or yours (unless you are a voter lol)


Right now, Josh harden is no different than a prime Corey Maggette or Jason Richardson.
Your right, Josh Harden isn't any different than those two but James Harden is better than Reggie Miller ever was. Harden will probably have to prove it in the post-season in order to validate it though but I thought he did a great job in the post-season last season.

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie Miller in his prime (whatever that may be since he was roughly the same player for a long time) lost to guys like Jeff Hornacek, Reggie Lewis, Dan Majerle, Kendall Gill, Jeff Malone, Kenny Anderson, Eddie Jones, Terrell Brandon, Sprewell, Blaylock, his own teammate Mark Jackson once and Steve Smith in All-NBA balloting. If anyone asks, I have complete results.

He flatout wasn't considered that good. Obviously, his major argument stems from his post-season play so All-NBA is irrelevant there but he's pretty overrated there too.

For all his clutch play, his career is littered with moments where he couldn't create his own shot in crunchtime where his skillset came into the equation, got fatigued due to working off-ball and running around so much or faced a tough nosed defender who'd pressure him, stick with him and not get baited into any of his cheap tactics.

Also, for a guy really "feared," pretty interesting how Phil Jackson and Larry Brown said Derrick McKey was the best player on the Pacers.

He's pretty easy to appreciate only if people didn't stop overrating him to the nth degree.
YEah, most of those guys were more talented, but what did they do with it, nothin. Reggie Miller with his marginal talent, weak 1-on-1 play, ect, made him the most feared player in the 90s in crunch time not named Michael Jordan.

Kenny Anderson, lol.

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna group together the things that create the issue for me...


He scored about 20-30+ ppg in the post-season with super high efficiency, he always shot a TS% in the high 50s or in the low 60s which is not just good, it's great.

You also have to factor in how Reggie played against GOAT level defenses such as the 90s Knicks defense and the 90s Bulls defense and he still put up huge numbers.

Did he win with those big numbers?


If 22/2/2 and 26/3/2 or 23/4/3 are huge numbers....

What is Ray Allens series with 32/5/5 on 51%, 45%$ from 3, and 97% from the line?

What is Duncan doing 29/17/6/4?

What is Hakeems 38/16 series or 35/13/6/5/4?

Whats 45/10/7 from Jordan?

What is 33/7/6 2/2 on 56% shooting vs the Celtics from Wade?

Dirks 33/17?

Or Kidd doing 20/10/9 with great defense for an entire finals run?

Whats chris paul vs the Mavs?

Whats KG vs the Kings in 04?

What is Nashs 30/12/7 on 55% and 97% from the line?

Whats Ewing vs the Celtics?

Barkley vs the sonics?


Whats rondo doing 19/12/9 vs the Bulls?

Whats Lebron dropping 39/9/8?

What is Kevin Johnson doing 27/10, 24/12, and 24/12 again in 3 different runs?

Whats VC dropping 50/40, and 35 on the 76ers?

Whats george Gervin dropping 38 a game?

Whats Bernard King vs the Badboy Pistons in the playoffs going over 40 in 4 of 5 games and having 36 in the other?


If Reggies series are huge...what are those?

Superdupermegaultrahuge?

Reggie Miller has always been a player people expect less of and prop up heavily when he plays as other hall of famers dont even get real props for.

Reggies best moments dont stand out compared to most hall of famers. His best moments stand out compared to Michael Redd(though Redds 27/5/2 on crazy shooting in the 06 playoffs would fit right in with alot of Reggies "huge" numbers).

Clyde Drexler past his prime was having better playoff performances than plenty of those Reggie got famous for.

You have to water down greatness for Reggie to fit its description.

[NugzHeat3]

Could you explain here?

I do think All-NBA teams are practically worthless. One because as you already stated it is only for the regular season and two because it is just the media's opinion. I prefer making an opinion on my mine and not having others do it for me. The only difference between voters in the All-NBA Team and me or some other fan is the fact that they have a journalism degree and that is it. There opinion on sports/basketball is no more valuable than mine or yours (unless you are a voter lol)


Your right, Josh Harden isn't any different than those two but James Harden is better than Reggie Miller ever was. Harden will probably have to prove it in the post-season in order to validate it though but I thought he did a great job in the post-season last season.
I don't consider All-NBA to be completely worthless. If you have your own opinion, that is totally fine by me and I actually encourage it because I like to think for myself and form my own opinion as well. That said, All-NBA teams tend to showcase what the majority thinks of a player or what the consensus opinion on them and the fact is the majority never really thought of him highly.

As for thinking his playoff performances are overrated, I don't consider him to be in one of the most clutch performers ever. He's a guy who really steps up in the playoffs as opposed to his reg. season self kind of like Hakeem but the level they reach is totally different and that's what's my issue. Miller probably raised his game a bit more but to put it into perspective, Miller goes from a borderline All-Star to an All-Star while Hakeem goes from a say top 5 MVP candidate to playing at a level similar to some of the greatest ever. Who is more clutch (not talking about last second shots either)? You ever see Hakeem get called one of the most clutch performers ever?

I wrote a post on him earlier and mentioned a lot of crucial playoff games where his skillset/style of play came into question and I'm going to copy that.


He's too limited for my taste.

I don't think Brown held him back, either. I think it's more due to the fact that Miller could only succeed in the particular offense and Brown knew his strengths and weaknesses.

He was good in the playoffs and just used to get in the zone but he's far from what I'd consider great.

He's really a shooter that benefits from how good his shot is since it opened the game for him because of how much respect you had to give him and how tightly you had to play him. He was also very smart at drawing fouls whether off-ball (cause he got caught up at times and often got under his defender's skin) or leaning in on the jumper trying to create contact with the defender. He never really drew fouls like Wade or AI do for instance when they break the defense down with dribble penetration and create contact in the paint. He had his fair share of fouls drawn via penetrations but those were right after he'd come off the screen and lost his defender allowing him to drive. He was also notorious flopping whether kicking his leg out on jumpers or exaggerating at minimal contact.

Dale and Antonio Davis deserve a lot of credit for those screens they used to set because they really allowed him to flourish though they used to benefit from Miller too. When he'd come off the curl, a baseline screen, a double screen, they'd try sending another guy at him and that's how he mainly used to get assists. He'd pass to the screener (usually Dale or Antonio) coming right off the screen and they'd slip in for easy buckets.

I'd consider him a great scorer if he had a better first step or a creative handle or even a low-post game which he didn't. He had the size but not the strength/weight to do so.

There's too many instances in the playoffs for me to really say he's a great scorer.

Games like game seven vs Orlando where he couldn't get open and Larry Brown said this after that game:

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/05/sports/sports-of-the-times-magic-is-simply-better-in-talent-and-ratings.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

Game seven vs the Bulls in 1998 where Miller couldn't get free off Jordan in the 4th quarter, didn't score a single point and got one shot off which was an air ball and saw the Pacers blow a lead.

Game two vs the Knicks in 1993. Starks shut him down in the second half not allowing him to get open and get shots off. Miller only had one field goal in the fourth and the last 20 minutes or so.

Game four vs the Knicks in 1993, he had 30 points through three quarters but scored 3 points the rest of the way (4th quarter and OT combined) partly due to Starks really fighting through screens, sticking with him and partly due to exhaustion I'm sure.

Game six vs the Knicks in 1994. He has 12 points in the 4th but couldn't score late in the stretch where his ability to create his own shot came into play. Indiana was held without a field goal in the last 5 minutes and ultimately suffered from lacking a guy who could create under pressure. He wasn't that great in game seven either and had a stretch late in the game where he missed six shots in a row then finally made a three. But he also air balled a potential game tying shot albeit, he did get called for a bogus flagrant right after.

When they finally beat the Knicks in 1995, he scored 0 in the 4th in game seven and it was Rik Smits who carried them in the 4th though he did benefit from the focus on Miller. Brown and Miller said Smits carried the team and was the MVP.

Game six vs the Knicks in 1999, he went out scoring 8 points on 3/18 shooting. Miller himself said he had too many good looks so it wasn't as much for the defense although Allan Houston did a credible job. In the series, Bird called him out to be more of a leader and being more assertive in the offense.

A disciplined defender that really focused on shutting him down, fighting through screens and not getting caught up in the mind games could really take him out of the game. He's just too limited as a scorer for my liking.


Obviously, a lot of this may sound overly critical but that's just because he's held at way too high of a pedestal.

[L.Kizzle]

Obviously, a lot of this may sound overly critical but that's just because he's held at way too high of a pedestal.
Yeah, but who put him on that pedestal, not the fans (5 All-star game in 18 seasons) and media (3 All-NBA 3rd teams in 18 seasons.)

His peers did, his peers are the ones who talk so highly of him.

[NugzHeat3]

YEah, most of those guys were more talented, but what did they do with it, nothin. Reggie Miller with his marginal talent, weak 1-on-1 play, ect, made him the most feared player in the 90s in crunch time not named Michael Jordan.

Kenny Anderson, lol.
"lol" at Kenny Anderson. Same guy who beat him in All-NBA balloting. While you lol at that, I'm going to lol at the fact that Miller couldn't even make All-NBA in by far the weakest year for guards in the last 20 years.

[L.Kizzle]

"lol" at Kenny Anderson. Same guy who beat him in All-NBA balloting. While you lol at that, I'm going to lol at the fact that Miller couldn't even make All-NBA in by far the weakest year for guards in the last 20 years.
Yeah that's one season, what happened after that? I like Kenny Anderson too. I liked his style.

[NugzHeat3]

Yeah, but who put him on that pedestal, not the fans (5 All-star game in 18 seasons) and media (3 All-NBA 3rd teams in 18 seasons.)

His peers did, his peers are the ones who talk so highly of him.

I'm overwhelmed.


Yeah that's one season, what happened after that? I like Kenny Anderson too. I liked his style.
Who's saying anything about other seasons or longevity? I'm just pointing out people who made All-NBA over him yet wouldn't be considered to be miles within him as a player if you made a thread now. No career BS, just flat-out ability.

[Kblaze8855]

Peers talk highly of virtually everyone. Listen to anyone who played with or against them talk about Dennis Johnson or Joe Dumars. You would think they invented grandmas and lowered the upper class tax rate.

It wasnt his peers who got Reggie so highly regarded in retrospect. Its nostalgia and his enduring story(hes getting full espn movies the last couple years).

What Derek Harper thinks did not get him where he is.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm overwhelmed.


Who's saying anything about other seasons or longevity? I'm just pointing out people who made All-NBA over him yet wouldn't be considered to be miles within him as a player if you made a thread now. No career BS, just flat-out ability.
I stated that in my first statement. Of all those players you named, most where more talented then him but what did they do with that talent. Have one or two seasons and than fall into oblivion.

With Reggie's marginal talent, he made a name for himself, basically forced everyone to know who he was instead of being Steve Smith (who was more talented than him ... but what did he do with it?)

Steve Smith has a few more All-Star games and All-NBA teams if he does what Reggie does in a few playoff series.

[Kblaze8855]

Who's saying anything about other seasons or longevity? I'm just pointing out people who made All-NBA over him yet wouldn't be considered to be miles within him as a player if you made a thread now. No career BS, just flat-out ability.

100% true...and just funny as hell to me. There is no way in hell Reggie would stay close to Penny if thequestion is asked in 95(around the peak of Reggies fame. But if I ask right now...bet your ass some people who dont remember either one will go with Reggie.

Antione Walker got twice as many MVP votes as Reggie got in his entire career...combined....in 1998 alone. Literally. Twice as many as Reggie in 18 years combined.....

Reggie was famous. He became one of the best players of the 90s...in 2004.

[L.Kizzle]

Peers talk highly of virtually everyone. Listen to anyone who played with or against them talk about Dennis Johnson or Joe Dumars. You would think they invented grandmas and lowered the upper class tax rate.

It wasnt his peers who got Reggie so highly regarded in retrospect. Its nostalgia and his enduring story(hes getting full espn movies the last couple years).

What Derek Harper thinks did not get him where he is.
But JD and DJ were considered good guys on the court, you can't really say anything bad about them. Most considered Reggie a prick on the court.

[andgar923]

A while back I mentioned that Reggie was a more skilled offensive player than Bron and I stand by my statement.

Like somebody mentioned, he was great at creating space and getting off a shot, he wasn't solely a catch and shoot player, and even then that takes some skill. He wasn't tall, he wasn't athletic, but he just had a knack of getting his shot off regardless of the defense.

if he played today, he'd be the scoring leader, PERIOD.

There would be no way to stop him in today's era. Specially if teams tried to run the "zone" on him, he'd demolish it to shreds. Give him some space, and he'll drain it, get close and he pulls up for a shot, blink and he'll create some separation. Oh... and he'd draw fouls on your team as well. With a clear lane, he'd drive to the hole more than before, and talk shit during the entire process.

And yeah... that skinny f*cker was tough as nails as well.

[iDefend5]

You have to water down greatness for Reggie to fit its description.
You just ignored all the numbers I posted for Reggie with you, here are they again...

1993 vs NYK's, 31.5/3/3 on 69% TS
1994 vs Shaq/Penny, 29/3/4 on 68% TS
1994 vs NYK's 25/2/5 on 58% TS
1995 vs NYK's 23/4/3 on 58% TS
1995 vs Shaq/Penny 26/3/1 on 67% TS
1998 vs NYK's 25/2/1 on 61% TS
1998 vs Jordan/Pippen, 17/2/2 on 58% TS
2000 vs Sixers, 26/2/3 on 67% TS
2000 vs NYK, 22/2/2 on 56% TS
2000 vs Lakers, 24/3/4 on 59% TS
2001 vs Sixers, 31/3/2.5 on 61% TS
2002 vs Nets, 24/3/3 on 63% TS

Keep in mind this is one player in his post-season career. You just gave me like 50 random players and talked about one series of them. I just gave you one player (Reggie Miller) and I gave you all of his all-time great playoff performances.

I would like for you to inform me about this part of my post post instead of skipping around and responding to whatever you feel like and it leads the discussion to no where.

You also ignored Reggie's high efficiency with a high TS%. Any of those guys ever put up such high efficiency with a high volume of points? Don't think so.

[Kblaze8855]

if he played today, he'd be the scoring leader, PERIOD.

There would be no way to stop him in today's era. Specially if teams tried to run the "zone" on him, he'd demolish it to shreds. Give him some space, and he'll drain it, get close and he pulls up for a shot, blink and he'll create some separation. Oh... and he'd draw fouls on your team as well. With a clear lane, he'd drive to the hole more than before, and talk shit during the entire process.

So...Reggie Miller...in this era.....better scorer than Kevin Durant or Kobe.

Am I understanding you there?

[Kblaze8855]

You just ignored all the numbers I posted for Reggie with you, here are they again...


No...I looked at them and gave you far greater numbers that people for the most part...arent even aware of. Because(as was the point) stars do that type of thing all the time and its barely even noteworthy.




1993 vs NYK's, 31.5/3/3 on 69% TS
1994 vs Shaq/Penny, 29/3/4 on 68% TS
1994 vs NYK's 25/2/5 on 58% TS
1995 vs NYK's 23/4/3 on 58% TS
1995 vs Shaq/Penny 26/3/1 on 67% TS
1998 vs NYK's 25/2/1 on 61% TS
1998 vs Jordan/Pippen, 17/2/2 on 58% TS
2000 vs Sixers, 26/2/3 on 67% TS
2000 vs NYK, 22/2/2 on 56% TS
2000 vs Lakers, 24/3/4 on 59% TS
2001 vs Sixers, 31/3/2.5 on 61% TS
2002 vs Nets, 24/3/3 on 63% TS

Keep in mind this is one player in his post-season career. You just gave me like 50 random players and talked about their big series. I just gave you one player (Reggie Miller) and I gave you all of his all-time great playoff performances.

Nothing Reggie Miller has ever done series wise justifies that phrase.



I would like for you to inform me about this part of my post post instead of skipping around and responding to whatever you feel like even if it leads the discussion to no where.

Inform you of what?

What exactly are you asking me to do?

Explain how a border line all star managed mediocre(by superstar standards) performances?

[NugzHeat3]

I stated that in my first statement. Of all those players you named, most where more talented then him but what did they do with that talent. Have one or two seasons and than fall into oblivion.

With Reggie's marginal talent, he made a name for himself, basically forced everyone to know who he was instead of being Steve Smith (who was more talented than him ... but what did he do with it?)

Steve Smith has a few more All-Star games and All-NBA teams if he does what Reggie does in a few playoff series.
Of course, Miller has a more decorated career than all of them. He had a better career and he's definitely more memorable but that wasn't my point to begin with.

When I listed all those guys and said they received more points than he did, I wasn't saying they should be ranked higher than him on an all time scale but to show that he just wasn't considered that good at the time and all the love for him is all in retrospect. Why is it that sportswriters, coaches and national media didn't rank him highly during the time period despite those supposedly legendary playoff performances? I'd bet that while Ray Allen vs Reggie Miller is a popular debate and has been for a long time, in the 90s, it would be one sided. You can even pick a guy like Richmond who's prime overlapped with Miller and the comparison would be pretty one sided now but it's in Richmond's favor in the 90s.


100% true...and just funny as hell to me. There is no way in hell Reggie would stay close to Penny if thequestion is asked in 95(around the peak of Reggies fame. But if I ask right now...bet your ass some people who dont remember either one will go with Reggie.

Antione Walker got twice as many MVP votes as Reggie got in his entire career...combined....in 1998 alone. Literally. Twice as many as Reggie in 18 years combined.....

Reggie was famous. He became one of the best players of the 90s...in 2004.
Agreed. I have to think a lot of these posters haven't looked deep enough into his career. The bolded is exactly one of my major issues as well. He's great in hindsight only but for some reason, that was never said about him back then.

[L.Kizzle]

So...Reggie Miller...in this era.....better scorer than Kevin Durant or Kobe.

Am I understanding you there?
Well Durant is not great creating off the dribble either, he's just a 7 foot swingman so it's easy to get his shoots off, ect.

[NugzHeat3]

I literally facepalmed when I read that he'd be scoring leader today. But, I think that's the same poster who said Rik Smits was better than Dwight so I wouldn't look too much into it. Probably has a strong case of nostalgia or era bias.

[Troutfisch]

Well deserved, one of the greatest clutch performers of all-time and a class act to boot.

I truly wish he would have accepted the Celtics offer to join them during their championship run. The man deserved a ring.

[L.Kizzle]

Of course, Miller has a more decorated career than all of them. He had a better career and he's definitely more memorable but that wasn't my point to begin with.

When I listed all those guys and said they received more points than he did, I wasn't saying they should be ranked higher than him on an all time scale but to show that he just wasn't considered that good at the time and all the love for him is all in retrospect. Why is it that sportswriters, coaches and national media didn't rank him highly during the time period despite those supposedly legendary playoff performances? I'd bet that while Ray Allen vs Reggie Miller is a popular debate and has been for a long time, in the 90s, it would be one sided. You can even pick a guy like Richmond who's prime overlapped with Miller and the comparison would be pretty one sided now but it's in Richmond's favor in the 90s.


Agreed. I have to think a lot of these posters haven't looked deep enough into his career. The bolded is exactly one of my major issues as well. He's great in hindsight only but for some reason, that was never said about him back then.
With Richmond, they would take Rock as the better all around talent, as it was clear to see, he beat him in All-Star appearances and All-NBA teams. But than, off course they will bring up the playoff career.

Miller played on a Pacers team who was maybe like the Rockets of the East in terms of talent and Reggie was no Hakeem. According to you, he was Steve Smith, Kenny Anderson, Terrell Brandon, Sean Elliot, ect level. What have those guys done in there career as the leaders of a franchise, hell just a team?

Rick Smits, The Davis Boys, McKey, Vern Flemming, Mark Jackson here and there and later on Rose and past prime Chris Mullin. That's who he worked with and went deep into the postseason most years (besides 1997.)

[Kblaze8855]

Well deserved, one of the greatest clutch performers of all-time and a class act to boot.

Did you watch the NBA in the 90s?

[Smoke117]

Reggie Miller is still not a hofer. He should have a could years to go, realistically.

[StateOfMind12]

I don't consider All-NBA to be completely worthless. If you have your own opinion, that is totally fine by me and I actually encourage it because I like to think for myself and form my own opinion as well. That said, All-NBA teams tend to showcase what the majority thinks of a player or what the consensus opinion on them and the fact is the majority never really thought of him highly.
I like to use All-NBA teams to show who the elite players were at their position in eras that I didn't watch such as the early 90s, 80s, 70s, etc.

I don't like using it to show who was the best in eras such as the late 90s or 2000s and such because I watched basketball then and I see that a lot of those selections are undeserving and that some of them are wrong in my opinion.




I wrote a post on him earlier and mentioned a lot of crucial playoff games where his skillset/style of play came into question and I'm going to copy that.

Obviously, a lot of this may sound overly critical but that's just because he's held at way too high of a pedestal.
Excellent post. Reggie's stats such as his ppg, his scoring efficiency such as FG%, eFG%, and TS% may look nice but it doesn't show everything.

It doesn't show you how Miller couldn't create his own shot on his own, it doesn't show you how if you denied Miller the ball, he wouldn't get the ball or he wouldn't shoot it (which was doable unlike a player like MJ, Hakeem, Bird, etc.), and so on.

The stats might show you that Miller was smart with his shot selection but it also shows you how he was unstoppable and unguardable which he wasn't. Stat-geeks try to make the claim he was unstoppable and unguardable though which is B.S. as you, me, and most know.

[L.Kizzle]

It doesn't show you how Miller couldn't create his own shot on his own, it doesn't show you how if you denied Miller the ball, he wouldn't get the ball or he wouldn't shoot it (which was doable unlike a player like MJ, Hakeem, Bird, etc.), and so on.

It might show you that Miller is smart with his shot selection but it doesn't show you how he was far from unstoppable and unguardable like many stat geeks try to claim he was.
Didn't know not creating your own shot means you're not really good?

Of course, if you deny someone the ball they can't get it ... what's the point?

Why would you shoot if you can't get off a good shot?

I'm not sure if anyone said he was unstoppable or unguardable?

[StateOfMind12]

Didn't know not creating your own shot means you're not really good?
If you are supposedly a scorer and you can't create your own shot, I would say you're not really good.

People try to claim Reggie was a scorer but he was actually just a shooter.


Of course, if you deny someone the ball they can't get it ... what's the point?
I'm saying you can stop someone that way and the stats do not show that. A lower FG% or TS% would indicate that someone is not very efficient when they shoot or not as efficient as someone else but being completely denied the ball is not shown on the stat-sheet which is probably why Reggie is considered better in retrospect.

Stats are more used more than ever these days and a lot of stats backup and help Reggie. The problem is that the stats do not indicate everything.


Why would you shoot if you can't get off a good shot?
That's the thing, he couldn't get off a good shot that often compared to a scorer like a Kevin Durant, Michael Jordan, etc.

Why? Because he was a shooter, not a scorer.



I'm not sure if anyone said he was unstoppable or unguardable?
I have read that on other sites which is why I don't post there very often. A lot of people seem to be very informed about Reggie on here though and this site is probably the smartest one I post in which is why I do post here the most frequently.

[NugzHeat3]

With Richmond, they would take Rock as the better all around talent, as it was clear to see, he beat him in All-Star appearances and All-NBA teams. But than, off course they will bring up the playoff career.

Miller played on a Pacers team who was maybe like the Rockets of the East in terms of talent and Reggie was no Hakeem. According to you, he was Steve Smith, Kenny Anderson, Terrell Brandon, Sean Elliot, ect level. What have those guys done in there career as the leaders of a ffranchise, he;; just a team?

Rick Smits, The Davis Boys, McKey, Vern Flemming, Mark Jackson here and there and later on Rose and past prime Chris Mullin. That's who he worked with and went deep into the postseason most years (besides 1997.)
Part of me does want to rank Miller over Richmond not because I think he's the better player but Richmond isn't proven in the playoffs like Miller is. But, part of me thinks that it's unfair since Miller was on teams that were much better than Richmond's and the one time he did make the playoffs as the man (1996), he did everything he could and did better than Miller could possibly have. There's a 37 pt in game there and he switches on to GP, plays physical defense on him and takes away his post game. He had a lot of turnovers in that series because Seattle's pressure defense and GP took away Sonics' PG (who was a rookie IIRC) and Richmond was forced to create offense and he couldn't handle their traps and double teams which were probably the best in the league and at worst, top 2.

But, that goes back to my first point of not having the luxury Miller did.

Would Miller have been able to take on various roles all at once? Something he NEVER did in his time at Indiana. Is he holding his own guarding Payton? Is he going to create his own offense as well as for the team? Is he going to handle Seattle's SOS pressure defense, the traps and double teams from all angles? Miller was never forced to be the player had one of the best passers imaginable in Mark Jackson and another serviceable PG in Haywoode Workman, who sucked as a scorer/shooter but played great ballpressure defense, had decent ball handling and got the ball where it was needed (typical Larry Brown PG, similar to Eric Snow in Philly).

And yes, having better teammates is a discernible edge Reggie has over them. You speak of Smits, the Davis Boys, McKey, Mark Jackson and those guys as if they were nobodies but they each did their role and covered up certain areas that were required and allowed Miller to flourish. Jackson was the set up man, Haywoode Workman for defensive purposes, McKey was supposed to plug in all holes and provide verstaility and he's the same guy who Larry Brown and Phil called the best player. Davis Boys provided defense, often switched up assignments with Smits at C and provided rebounding and most importantly, great screens for Miller. Smits provided low-post scoring, often attracted double teams and spaced the floor. Why is it that Smits doesn't get credit for holding his own vs Ewing and at times, flat-out outplaying him? It seems like it's about Miller when it comes to Indiana beating NYK.


He held his own and maybe more against Patrick Ewing of the Knicks in the Eastern Conference semifinals, averaging 22.6 points to Ewing's 19.3. Smits scored the final seven points of the Pacers' two-point victory in New York in Game 7 on Sunday and made a crucial block. Pacers coach Larry Brown called him "our go-to guy" and said he "carried this team."
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-05-25/sports/1995145132_1_rik-smits-pacers-oneal


It was Smits who scored the last 7 points Sunday against the Knicks in the Pacers' 97-95 victory in Game 7. It was Smits who made a big block on defense. It was Smits, as Pacer Coach Larry Brown said, who was "our go-to guy."
And, added Brown, it was Smits, and not Reggie Miller, the explosive long-range shooting star and wide-ranging chatterbox of the Pacers, who truly "carried this team" by playing so well against Patrick Ewing. "A Hall of Famer, a great player," Brown said of Ewing, "and he held his own."
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/23/sports/1995-nba-playoffs-standing-taller-among-centers.html

This is a guy who'd be considered one of the guys that Miller "carried" all the way but it's a bit weird how he's getting credit for Indiana finally beating NYK in 1995.

I don't think a guy like KA is as good as him but a guy like Hornacek who did a 20/5/5 season (similar shooting % as Miller), finished above Miller in All-NBA balloting and even made the All-Star team over his own teammate KJ never had the luxury Miller did of being the man, having so many plays run for him and knowing he'd get the bulk of the credit on probably the most balanced squad (in terms of talent spread across positions) of the 90s. Would love to see them switch positions and see what their legacy is in retrospect.

[LockoutOver11]

Did you watch the NBA in the 90s?

i know i did,, and its seems like u don't appreciate what reggie brought to the table. he was a face for that pacers team, was a shooter, and you'd want him with the ball at the end of games. if you were on the other side you were in panic....

his hall of fame, is solidified with the moments he gave the nba not everything is having the greatest numbers. he was an efficient scorer. made the playoffs, made conference finals, made game 7's, made a finals appearance...

hes in. f u c k s your problem? u a fan of tmac/kobe or something? haha....

[NugzHeat3]

I like to use All-NBA teams to show who the elite players were at their position in eras that I didn't watch such as the early 90s, 80s, 70s, etc.

I don't like using it to show who was the best in eras such as the late 90s or 2000s and such because I watched basketball then and I see that a lot of those selections are undeserving and that some of them are wrong in my opinion.
That's fine by me. I disagree with quite a few selections as well but don't completely disregard them. Team success and injuries play a part in the selections too although in Miller's case, probably not since he was injury free and didn't really suffer from horrific teams.



Excellent post. Reggie's stats such as his ppg, his scoring efficiency such as FG%, eFG%, and TS% may look nice but it doesn't show everything.

It doesn't show you how Miller couldn't create his own shot on his own, it doesn't show you how if you denied Miller the ball, he wouldn't get the ball or he wouldn't shoot it (which was doable unlike a player like MJ, Hakeem, Bird, etc.), and so on.

The stats might show you that Miller was smart with his shot selection but it also shows you how he unstoppable and unguardable which he wasn't. Stat-geeks try to make the claim he was unstoppable and unguardable though which is B.S. as you, me, and most know.
Absolutely.

Miller's efficiency looks very pretty but take one of the games I mentioned earlier, for example. His flaw becomes magnified and clear. Talking about game 4 vs the Knicks in the 1993 playoffs here.

He had 30 points through three quarters but scored 3 points the rest of the way (4th quarter and OT combined) partly due to Starks really fighting through screens, sticking with him and partly due to exhaustion I'm sure.

Check the box score for this game and it looks great. 33 points on 12/20 shooting which is great and above his standards. If you haven

[Kblaze8855]

i know i did,, and its seems like u don't appreciate what reggie brought to the table. he was a face for that pacers team, was a shooter, and you'd want him with the ball at the end of games. if you were on the other side you were in panic....

Ive never been a fan on the other side and lost anything that mattered. Few have.



his hall of fame, is solidified with the moments he gave the nba not everything is having the greatest numbers. he was an efficient scorer. made the playoffs, made conference finals, made game 7's, made a finals appearance...

His hall of fame entry is because the word "Fame" in there. Which is really about all he needed.


hes in. f u c k s your problem? u a fan of tmac/kobe or something? haha....

I dont care that Reggie got in. I expected him to bea first ballot hall of famer. have said so for years.

Hes one of many hall of fame players who wasnt anything similar to elite.

[L.Kizzle]

His hall of fame entry is because the word "Fame" in there. Which is really about all he needed.
Let's see Spud Webb, Mugsy Bouges, make the hall of fame. Everyone knows them. Random people who don't follow sports know them.

If that's too bold, than Kemp and Penny. Just about the same era as Miller. Have just as many accolades if not more in a shorter prime/time period. Are they into because they were "fame"ous?

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing any of them have done or will do short of a killing spree will make them the name Reggie Miller was because of the Knicks. Reggie was on national news....not sports news. The news period.

Spud webb wasnt shit outside basketball fans. Reggie vs Spike was big business.

Its a gotdamn 30 for 30special...and another special too....

[L.Kizzle]

Nothing any of them have done or will do short of a killing spree will make them the name Reggie Miller was because of the Knicks. Reggie was on national news....not sports news. The news period.

Spud webb wasnt shit outside basketball fans. Reggie vs Spike was big business.

Its a gotdamn 30 for 30special...and another special too....
You know how many guest spots Spud and Mugsy had on TV shows in the 90s ...

[NugzHeat3]

Those Webb, Penny ect examples aren't one and the same.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not going to explain the difference in coverage between Muggsy and the Reggie/Spike lee thing becase no sports fan needs it.

[Whoah10115]

Reggie was never, at one time, a top 10 player. But hey, neither was Ray Allen.



Reggie was a great player tho, who played within a system his entire career. Whenever he needed to play as something greater than that, he showed up and he delivered. When the team needed him, he stepped up and not just with Robert Horry stuff. Quarters, full games, whatever.



23.5PPG for his playoff career, until the last 3 years where he averaged like 11 and was obviously well past it.




He was an All-NBA caliber player his entire career. Fringe, whatever. But he was that talent over a decade. It adds up. And in RETROSPECT, it's amazing to look back at some of those series and not realize it wasn't just a cold-blooded streak. It was his game. And if he played almost anywhere else he'd regularly put Ray Ray numbers. He didn't even play heavy minutes.

[Kblaze8855]

Whenever he needed to play as something greater than that, he showed up and he delivered. When the team needed him, he stepped up and not just with Robert Horry stuff. Quarters, full games, whatever.


Yea....look into that.

[TheBigVeto]

Most overrated player in NBA history along with Pete Maravich.

You're confusing Reggie with Kobe.

[TheBigVeto]

Harden isnt better than Reggie. But Manu is.

This is correct. Manu = 2nd GOAT SG, so he's better than Reggie.

[eliteballer]

You know how many guest spots Spud and Mugsy had on TV shows in the 90s ...


Put down the crackpipe, they are not comparable to Reggie in starpower

[TheBigVeto]

Reggie Miller in his prime (whatever that may be since he was roughly the same player for a long time) lost to guys like Jeff Hornacek, Reggie Lewis, Dan Majerle, Kendall Gill, Jeff Malone, Kenny Anderson, Eddie Jones, Terrell Brandon, Sprewell, Blaylock, his own teammate Mark Jackson once and Steve Smith in All-NBA balloting. If anyone asks, I have complete results.

He flatout wasn't considered that good. Obviously, his major argument stems from his post-season play so All-NBA is irrelevant there but he's pretty overrated there too.

For all his clutch play, his career is littered with moments where he couldn't create his own shot in crunchtime where his skillset came into the equation, got fatigued due to working off-ball and running around so much or faced a tough nosed defender who'd pressure him, stick with him and not get baited into any of his cheap tactics.

Also, for a guy really "feared," pretty interesting how Phil Jackson and Larry Brown said Derrick McKey was the best player on the Pacers.

He's pretty easy to appreciate only if people didn't stop overrating him to the nth degree.

Phil Jackson's comments on opposing players are always worthless.

[TheBigVeto]

Did you watch the NBA in the 90s?

He did and Reggie didn't rape anybody.