ESPN Article: Bulls record raises questions about Derrick Rose's 2011 MVP award

[konex]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/granderson-120406/chicago-bulls-2012-success-derrick-rose-raises-issues-2011-mvp


Just over a year ago, my colleague John Hollinger wrote a piece making the statistical argument that Derrick Rose should not be the league's MVP. (Insiders can still read it here.) Needless to say, he ticked off a lot of Bulls fans who celebrated Chicago's best-in-the-league record (the Bulls finished a game better than San Antonio last season) and Rose's coronation as the NBA Most Valuable Player two months later. Some argued with Hollinger during one of his chats, and that chat ended up on other blogs, such as SB Nation.

This year, Rose has missed more than a third of the season because of injury, and the Bulls again have the best record in the league. So I wonder if those irritated fans are having any second thoughts yet.

http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

[SpecialQue]

Great, now Rose is going to win it again.

[juju151111]

:facepalm

[Tenchi Ryu]

Just a shitty unknown ESPN writer trying to make a name for himself by creating some buzz. Nothing to see her folks.

[Bourne]

Just a shitty unknown ESPN writer trying to make a name for himself by creating some buzz. Nothing to see her folks.

There is great stats behind his argument. Learn.

[Tenchi Ryu]

There is great stats behind his argument. Learn.
No, not really.

[Meticode]

I literally stopped reading when I saw this..

"John Hollinger"

...I don't even know what the article is, but I'm guessing it has to do with stats or something.

[stephanieg]

That's interesting since PER says Rose is the best on the team by a significant margin. Under PER more shots = higher rating, which is why it's garbage and pretty laughable. But it is true that Rose is overrated, so it's a twofer.

[nathanjizzle]

i hate hearing ignorant people say stuff that is false. look at the bulls record with and without rose this season. 15-7 29-6. is that enough proof for you that he has a major impact on this team? what about last year when he produced 28.5 and 7 assists against the top 6 teams in the nba.

[SCdac]

I know there are things a player such as Rose does that stats don't reveal and the TV cameras don't catch...

wait what, there's things in the NBA that can't be measured solely by stats? I never would have guessed given this stat-centric age of sports

[Myth]

It makes you stop and question it, but ultimately it teams can pull together even when they miss their star. Look at the 1993-94 Bulls without Jordan. A similar argument could be made that Jordan is overrated because that team didn't have a huge dip in its record, but we all know the difference is between the two teams is larger than the record shows. Likewise, it is just stupid to think the Bulls are just as good without Rose just because the record is still good.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Rose's presence makes a very good team great. I've never viewed him as the best player in the league but his selection wasn't awful. I don't think there's a case in the game today where a team goes from contending for a championship to non-playoff team like we had when James was in Cleveland. Closest would be Orlando being a non-playoff team sans Dwight Howard. With him they're a solid playoff team but not elite, and he's certainly not looked like a leader this season.

[TheMan]

i hate hearing ignorant people say stuff that is false. look at the bulls record with and without rose this season. 15-7 29-6. is that enough proof for you that he has a major impact on this team? what about last year when he produced 28.5 and 7 assists against the top 6 teams in the nba.
Hit the nail on the head...

I don't know in what world is 15-7>29-6.

/thread:facepalm

[EnoughSaid]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

[ImmortalD24]

..
Why do you keep posting that same gif? Just wondering..

[Heavincent]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

:oldlol:

[SpecialQue]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

Lebron wasn't winning it last year, plain and simple. There would have been a huge backlash against the NBA if he did. He was just that hated. This season is different though, so he probably has it in the bag.

I'm fine with Rose getting it. There wasn't any clear-cut winners last season.

[EnoughSaid]

:oldlol:

Everything I said is true. The Bulls have great shooters (Korver, Watson, even Lucas) coming off the bench, followed by the best defensive front court in the NBA (Taj, Noah, Asik) and also the best all together defense in the NBA. They have the COTY and also another All-Star in Deng. So what the hell are you laughing at?

STILL WON'T BEAT MIAMI DOE!! BITCH

[Clocian-IGN]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

lebron cant win it when he's got 2 top players at their position and a top defensive team :rolleyes:

[Heavincent]

Everything I said is true. The Bulls have great shooters (Korver, Watson, even Lucas) coming off the bench, followed by the best defensive front court in the NBA (Taj, Noah, Asik) and also the best all together defense in the NBA. They have the COTY and also another All-Star in Deng. So what the hell are you laughing at?

STILL WON'T BEAT MIAMI DOE!! BITCH

:oldlol:

[EnoughSaid]

lebron cant win it when he's got 2 top players at their position and a top defensive team :rolleyes:

Sorry that he had to face a virtually un-beatable Mavericks team who had Dirk playing the best basketball ever and his other teammates were going off too.

But LeBron did play like shit though. Thank god my boy Wade helped the Heat not get swept. :applause:

[Heavincent]

Sorry that he had to face a virtually un-beatable Mavericks team

But I thought the Heat were gonna be a dynasty that won 7 straight championships. Surely they would be able to beat the Mavs, right? :confusedshrug:

Funny how you guys thought the Mavs stood no chance before the Finals started. It was just "Heat in 5 games and bla bla".

[Streetballer]

http://distilleryimage6.instagram.com/ba9433727d2811e1b9f1123138140926_7.jpg

[Lebron23]

He won't win another MVP Award. CP3 or RW over Rose in the All NBA First Team this season.

[LakersReign]

But I thought the Heat were gonna be a dynasty that won 7 straight championships. Surely they would be able to beat the Mavs, right? :confusedshrug:

Funny how you guys thought the Mavs stood no chance before the Finals started. It was just "Heat in 5 games and bla bla".

Yeah, but all they got to show for it is a bunch of excuses and alternate "sock puppet" accounts now:roll:

[Sarcastic]

http://distilleryimage6.instagram.com/ba9433727d2811e1b9f1123138140926_7.jpg

What does this have to do with Derrick Rose?

[BarberSchool]

i hate hearing ignorant people say stuff that is false.I am currently in the company of people who love hearing ignorant people say stuff that is false.

http://cdn.nahright.com/news/m.php/2010/08/gucci-mane-ft-swizz-beatz-gucci-time-single-cover.png

[Heavincent]

Yeah, but all they got to show for it is a bunch of excuses and alternate "sock puppet" accounts now:roll:

That Hank dude literally has like 7 or 8 accounts on here. Pathetic.

[LakersReign]

That Hank dude literally has like 7 or 8 accounts on here. Pathetic.

After the Heat started looking vulnerable, noticed that he stopped posted with his Hank account. But yet we're supposed to believe that he's a "hardcore" Heat fan.:facepalm

[bdreason]

Steve Nash won two MVP's. Shaq won one. Who cares about the award anymore? It means nothing to me.

[Rhinox]

Everything I said is true. The Bulls have great shooters (Korver, Watson, even Lucas) coming off the bench, followed by the best defensive front court in the NBA (Taj, Noah, Asik) and also the best all together defense in the NBA. They have the COTY and also another All-Star in Deng. So what the hell are you laughing at?

STILL WON'T BEAT MIAMI DOE!! BITCH

Mad/scared/jealous heat fans' argument is so dumb he hes basing his argument of last years mvp award on this years team.

[Lebron23]

Bulls' defense is their real MVP. Rose is almost 24 yrs.old. He needs to improve his mid range jumper if he wants to have a longer NBA Career. He already missed a lot of games this season.

[Pointguard]

i hate hearing ignorant people say stuff that is false. look at the bulls record with and without rose this season. 15-7 29-6. is that enough proof for you that he has a major impact on this team? what about last year when he produced 28.5 and 7 assists against the top 6 teams in the nba.
This. And the fact they totally dominated the other 5 top contenders in the league after Dec 3. - a clean sweep in like 10 games. And the Bulls team didn't have a second guy that could consistently step up in tight games. Its a crappy argument.

[LakersReign]

Mad/scared/jealous heat fans' argument is so dumb he hes basing his argument of last years mvp award on this years team.

That's cuz they have no real coherent defense for Rose not winning the MVP last year. So, their tactic is to say "oh see this team is so good, they can win without Rose....THIS YEAR" as to try and discredit him. Talk about grasping at straws. Pathetic.:facepalm

[Tenchi Ryu]

LOL at salty Heat fans in here

[KingBeasley08]

Rose deserved it last year but last year was also one of the weakest fields ever for MVP candidates. If he had the same stats this year, I don't think he'd be in the top 2.

[rodman91]

Same John Holliger says D-Wade has best final perfomance of all time? :lol

[guy]

It makes you stop and question it, but ultimately it teams can pull together even when they miss their star. Look at the 1993-94 Bulls without Jordan. A similar argument could be made that Jordan is overrated because that team didn't have a huge dip in its record, but we all know the difference is between the two teams is larger than the record shows. Likewise, it is just stupid to think the Bulls are just as good without Rose just because the record is still good.

There's also no statistic that attributes to how Rose and Jordan in the past had a huge part in framing the culture, attitude, and expectations of their team which is a huge reason why they do so well without him. Lets say Rose was never on this team in the first place and I guarantee that they don't do as well as they've been doing without him right now.

Its funny how much people blow up what happened in 1994 without Jordan. The funny thing is if it was someone like Tracy Mcgrady or Vince Carter that had been in Jordan's place all those years then retired all of a sudden, good chance that 94 team has 5-10 more losses and today people would be praising T-Mac and Vince for how much of a decline they had without them. I could see the same thing today if it was someone like Deron Williams in Rose's place on this team.

[Doctor Rivers]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/granderson-120406/chicago-bulls-2012-success-derrick-rose-raises-issues-2011-mvp



http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

ugh... never ending discussion of what qualifies an MVP

[Tenchi Ryu]

Rose deserved it last year but last year was also one of the weakest fields ever for MVP candidates. If he had the same stats this year, I don't think he'd be in the top 2.
Like it ain't weak this year?

Lebron or Durant don't have no interesting MVP story at all, fact is they're the only 2 doing anything worth a MVP recognition...thats pretty much it. But both of them have had boring years for the most part.

[Celtics4ever]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

Take LeBron off the Heat and the Heat will still be at least a top 4 team in the east. Take Durant Off the Thunder and the Thunder would still be at least a Top 3-4 team in the west. Take Rose off of the Bulls and the Bulls would be a top 5-6 team in the East.

No player has won anything without a good supporting cast.

LeBron is overrated IMO

[Myth]

There's also no statistic that attributes to how Rose and Jordan in the past had a huge part in framing the culture, attitude, and expectations of their team which is a huge reason why they do so well without him. Lets say Rose was never on this team in the first place and I guarantee that they don't do as well as they've been doing without him right now.

Its funny how much people blow up what happened in 1994 without Jordan. The funny thing is if it was someone like Tracy Mcgrady or Vince Carter that had been in Jordan's place all those years then retired all of a sudden, good chance that 94 team has 5-10 more losses and today people would be praising T-Mac and Vince for how much of a decline they had without them. I could see the same thing today if it was someone like Deron Williams in Rose's place on this team.

Very true.

Having Rose on the team gives the team belief that they are playing for the ultimate prize, which would help keep them focused, even when Rose is not in the game. I would expect the same from other contending teams, just like last year when Durant sat out for a while and OKC still did well behind Westbrook's lead. People overreacted then too about Durant not having a big impact.

[(e)]

He won the record because he carried the team to wins at the end of games. I can't remember how many games Rose led a 4th quarter comeback, or led the team to pull away in the 4th, but it seemed like it was every damn night.

Plus Chicago missed Booz and Noah for long stretches last season. Pair that with the best record in the league and Rose's awesome season and you've got the MVP.

[Tenchi Ryu]

He won the record because he carried the team to wins at the end of games. I can't remember how many games Rose led a 4th quarter comeback, or led the team to pull away in the 4th, but it seemed like it was every damn night.

Plus Chicago missed Booz and Noah for long stretches last season. Pair that with the best record in the league and Rose's awesome season and you've got the MVP.
And this is what separates Stat whores from folks who watched the games. Too many games last year we should have just not won, period. Rose pulled some incredible feats to get some of those wins last year.

[cteach111]

i think the greatest aspect of Rose's game has nothing to do with his game, but his approach and attitude that he brings to the team.

I wonder where posters would rate Rose as a talent.. I don't think his impact is massive on a team like what Nash/Paul brings from a tangible perspective.

He seems like he might be just under Paul and Nash from an impact perspective imo, but its arguable. To be clear, i'm comparing him to the peaks of those players.

I'd be convinced that he's in those guys tier if he can become a bit more reliable/efficient as a scorer. That's where he does the most damage.

[Celtics4ever]

i think the greatest aspect of Rose's game has nothing to do with his game, but his approach and attitude that he brings to the team.

I wonder where posters would rate Rose as a talent.. I don't think his impact is massive on a team like what Nash/Paul brings from a tangible perspective.

He seems like he might be just under Paul and Nash from an impact perspective imo, but its arguable. To be clear, i'm comparing him to the peaks of those players.

I'd be convinced that he's in those guys tier if he can become a bit more reliable/efficient as a scorer. That's where he does the most damage.

Are you stupid? Sometimes I wonder how old these kids are that post here are.

Put Rose on the Clippers and they would be At least Top 2 team in the West

[LockoutOver11]

Are you stupid? Sometimes I wonder how old these kids are that post here are.

Put Rose on the Clippers and they would be At least Top 2 team in the West

not that old...

and funny u say the second sentence... people said that about the clippers after gaining cp3... HAHAHA

seriously, sometimes **** the nba, and its dumbass fans who can't even ball..

.... playoff's and hooters... thats all i care about when it comes to nba. this has been a wack ****ing couple of seasons. **** u fans of a bunch of mentally weak, live by the foul, chucking ass stars....

only stars you guys should be proud of is durant and rose.... thats it. everyone else is embarrassing.

[KingBeasley08]

Like it ain't weak this year?

Lebron or Durant don't have no interesting MVP story at all, fact is they're the only 2 doing anything worth a MVP recognition...thats pretty much it. But both of them have had boring years for the most part.
lol story? MVP is given to best player, not one with best story

[rodman91]

lol story? MVP is given to best player, not one with best story
MVP is given to best player in best teams. Lebron wasn't even clear cut best player in Heat last year.

[Cangri]

What really raised serious questions was the way he was playing in the playoffs.

[jrong]

Rose has gotten off easy so far. I anticipated reading articles like this ever since the Bulls ceased to stop winning without him.

But, to my knowledge, this is the only article that has been written on the subject and for a single journalist to write on it, it took the Bulls running up a 16 -5 record without Rose and prioving they are one of the teams in the league whether they're with him or without him. Previously, it was as if all writers and commentators intentionally danced around the subject.

[Duncan21formvp]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/granderson-120406/chicago-bulls-2012-success-derrick-rose-raises-issues-2011-mvp



http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

Except last year his entire frontcourt missed a 1/3 of the season and had no SG. And what difference does it make Lebron even with prime Wade and Bosh couldn't even get the best record.

[TheBluest]

Well Duh ESPN is way late on this. I along with others have only been saying this since before last year. Bulls fans always tried to put down the players Rose was playing with anytime anyone suggested Rose has flaws in his game or is somewhat overrated. Bulls fans said Rose had bad teammates. Uh no his teammates have always been pretty decent players.


I mean....


Deng got to the Playoffs without Rose

Kirk Hinrich got to the Playoffs without Rose

Boozer got to the Playoffs without Rose

Korver got to the Playoffs without Rose

C.J. Watson got to the Playoffs without Rose

Brewer got to the Playoffs without Rose

Scalabrine got to the Playoffs without Rose

Thibodeau won a Championship without Rose


All of these players/coach won multiple series without Rose so how could they be bad teammates?



Now that the Bulls have won considerably well without Rose this year Bulls fans want to act like we should differentiate between seasons and that all of a sudden they've managed to figure each other's games out and gel due to chemistry and improved play. Let's assume the latter here...uh okay they've figured out how to play together as if this makes Rose case better...it doesn't because they've figured out how to play together without him an MVP that is.


That's why when discussing MVP gotta stop resorting to reasonings such as...... take so and so off that team then guess what their record would be.....or well he carried the team that experienced lots of injuries.....or he's leading the league in this stat and their team is winning......or man the team had this record last year now they have this record this year. Because when using these arguments they usually center around that particular season and can't be applied to the next to make the same case of judgement.

Look the award encompasses lots of variables(or it should and not henpecked like it usually is)

Rose is a good player can't take that away from him but last season was truly one of warpedness. Even when fans said well he carried the team with injuries guess what it's not like he had some beastly year. He went 25/7.5 which is very good but nothing incredibly remarkable, he shot 44% fg once again nothing remarkable, he shot 33% 3pt once again nothing remarkable, 1stl/gm once again nothing remarkable but if you looked at the statement in a vacuum you'd think Derrick scored every single point, grabbed every single rebound, made every single assist etc etc therefore his team got wins. Uhhhhh he was still playing with other players and last I checked none of them had career years (but decent) last year and they had to play the games too, so where was their credit?

[TheBluest]

What really raised serious questions was the way he was playing in the playoffs.


Yeah he was getting routinely outplayed by freakin A.J. Price and freakin Jeff teague(who btw is a serious problem lately). He couldn't get a shot off against when defended by Lebron, he was a turnover machine and he didn't get anyone easy baskets. He had an incredible game against the Hawks and boy did the league try to milk that performance for all it was worth.

[ILLsmak]

He shouldn't have won it. Simple as that. Should have been either LeBron or Dwight. Rose's supporting cast is EASILY the best in the league. An All-Star in Deng, the best defensive front-court in the NBA, great shooting off the bench and the best defense in the NBA. Oh yeah, his coach isn't that bad either. :rolleyes:

The best in the league? No...

What about KD? What about Kobe? What about LeBron? They all have great supporting casts.

I love it when people call Deng an all star. First of all, he's not an all star. He got in because of ROSE and the Bulls. And during the game, he played like 6 minutes and had 1 assist as his only stat.

-Smak

[TheBluest]

The best in the league? No...

What about KD? What about Kobe? What about LeBron? They all have great supporting casts.

I love it when people call Deng an all star. First of all, he's not an all star. He got in because of ROSE and the Bulls. And during the game, he played like 6 minutes and had 1 assist as his only stat.

-Smak

:biggums:

He did not get in because of Rose. He was selected by coaches you realize this right? He got in because of their TEAM success and his hard work. Deng wasn't having a career year statistically but a good year nonetheless. Rose had missed like 10gms by the time those votes had to be in which was once again 1/3 of the season so how really did Rose help him get in?

Better examples of what you clearly reached for here of one player getting another player into the All-Star game is Nash getting Marion in..Chris Paul getting David West in...Lebron getting Big-Z in...Garnett getting Cassell in

More Bulls fans nonsensical double speak :coleman:

[knicksman]

i always believed that rose is overrated coz its hard for a 23 yr old to lead a team to contending alone. Esp for a score first pg who has the lowest impact among all types of players. If it takes 7 yrs for lebron to finally have a contending team or jordan at the age of 28 then at least rose should have been at that age for him to be credited of that mvp.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Except last year his entire frontcourt missed a 1/3 of the season and had no SG. And what difference does it make Lebron even with prime Wade and Bosh couldn't even get the best record.
/Thread

[Go Getter]

Except last year his entire frontcourt missed a 1/3 of the season and had no SG. And what difference does it make Lebron even with prime Wade and Bosh couldn't even get the best record.
:oldlol:

People stretching as far as bringing the playoffs into this.

[Go Getter]

Well Duh ESPN is way late on this. I along with others have only been saying this since before last year. Bulls fans always tried to put down the players Rose was playing with anytime anyone suggested Rose has flaws in his game or is somewhat overrated. Bulls fans said Rose had bad teammates. Uh no his teammates have always been pretty decent players.


I mean....


Deng got to the Playoffs without Rose

Kirk Hinrich got to the Playoffs without Rose

Boozer got to the Playoffs without Rose

Korver got to the Playoffs without Rose

C.J. Watson got to the Playoffs without Rose

Brewer got to the Playoffs without Rose

Scalabrine got to the Playoffs without Rose

Thibodeau won a Championship without Rose


All of these players/coach won multiple series without Rose so how could they be bad teammates?



Now that the Bulls have won considerably well without Rose this year Bulls fans want to act like we should differentiate between seasons and that all of a sudden they've managed to figure each other's games out and gel due to chemistry and improved play. Let's assume the latter here...uh okay they've figured out how to play together as if this makes Rose case better...it doesn't because they've figured out how to play together without him an MVP that is.


That's why when discussing MVP gotta stop resorting to reasonings such as...... take so and so off that team then guess what their record would be.....or well he carried the team that experienced lots of injuries.....or he's leading the league in this stat and their team is winning......or man the team had this record last year now they have this record this year. Because when using these arguments they usually center around that particular season and can't be applied to the next to make the same case of judgement.

Look the award encompasses lots of variables(or it should and not henpecked like it usually is)

Rose is a good player can't take that away from him but last season was truly one of warpedness. Even when fans said well he carried the team with injuries guess what it's not like he had some beastly year. He went 25/7.5 which is very good but nothing incredibly remarkable, he shot 44% fg once again nothing remarkable, he shot 33% 3pt once again nothing remarkable, 1stl/gm once again nothing remarkable but if you looked at the statement in a vacuum you'd think Derrick scored every single point, grabbed every single rebound, made every single assist etc etc therefore his team got wins. Uhhhhh he was still playing with other players and last I checked none of them had career years (but decent) last year and they had to play the games too, so where was their credit?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Tenchi Ryu]

:oldlol:

People stretching as far as bringing the playoffs into this.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[June1026]

PER is a pretty indicative stat, not absolute, but definitely informative, anyone who just brush it off like it's some ignorant formula must've never been educated.

[guy]

Yeah he was getting routinely outplayed by freakin A.J. Price and freakin Jeff teague(who btw is a serious problem lately).

WHAT????????

[Go Getter]

The scary part about it for haters is Rose is getting better.

Stat geeks can't fathom the simplest theories sometimes.

Winning>Statlines. This is a law, not a theory.

In the regular season last year D. Rose was the MVP of the league without a doubt. 62 wins. Led by him.

And I guess you guys that didn't watch missed all of his statement games, the game winning shots, the soul-killing crossovers, the run stifling blocks, the speed that ran defenses ragged and set the pace for our attack while setting franchise records all along the way.

Hate on it but it's there in stone fellas.

I can't wait for tomorrow:applause:

[eliteballer]

Good rebounding bigs, solid defensive coaching, and depth can win a lot of games, its been proven time and again.

You could have plugged in half a dozen players(Paul, Williams, Rondo, Nash, Wade, Parker) into that team in place of Rose and had the same result.

[get these NETS]

espn is garbage


have 24 hours news cycle that they have to fill.....whether there is news or newsworthy commentary or not

[Go Getter]

Good rebounding bigs, solid defensive coaching, and depth can win a lot of games, its been proven time and again.

You could have plugged in half a dozen players(Paul, Williams, Rondo, Nash, Wade, Parker) into that team in place of Rose and had the same result.
:biggums:


your whole post is just

[eliteballer]

:biggums:


your whole post is just

Wade is at least as good as Rose is, and both Nash and Rondo have advantages over Rose. For Nash its passing and shooting. For Rondo its rebounding and passing. Roses skills arent unique, all those players could have the same effect in that system/roster.

[Go Getter]

Wade is at least as good as Rose is, and both Nash and Rondo have advantages over Rose. For Nash its passing and shooting. For Rondo its rebounding and passing. Roses skills arent unique, all those players could have the same effect in that system/roster.
1 Wade is a shooting guard. I don't see how that comparison works, it doesn't fit with the others in the PG scenario. Wade cannot run point better than Rose.

2 Rondo cannot score enough for the Bulls needs. A Bogans-Rondo backcourt?

:biggums:

3 Rose blossomed as a defender last year. Blocking centers and forwards, locking up his matchup, etc, etc. Quiet as kept CJ and John have been letting opposing points get off whereas I think ROse puts more pressure on them and defends them MUCH better than JL and CJ and especially Steve Nash.

4 Rose's body control and shot making ability are unique. His speed and change of direction are unique. Who else put Andre Miller on his butt? Twisted Tyreke around? And made Dragic's day tragic?


I thought so.

[DMAVS41]

What a joke of an article. This year has nothing to do with last year. Last year Rose played 81 games and led his team to 62 wins.

Rose's season last year fit all of the historical criteria for winning MVP. Somebody new and unexpected, great regular season record, clear cut best player on his team, quality numbers, and iirc the bulls beat a lot of the best teams in big games last year.

Nobody had as good of a case as Rose last year. Rose deserved it.

The article should blame Lebron for teaming up with Wade, Thunder not performing quite as expected, Thibs being a great coach, Dirk missing 9 games...etc.

All of that in part led to Rose deservedly winning MVP.

I don't understand why people can't grasp the difference between best player and MVP. It's extremely frustrating.

Rose had no case as the best player last year....or really top 5 in my opinion. But he had the best case for MVP. Two hugely different concepts.

[Tenchi Ryu]

With Rose=28-6=82%
without Rose=15-7=68%

Damn shame when that raises questions nowadays.

[eliteballer]

Rose career ast avg: 6.7 Wade: 6.3

Rondo's a superior passer, he would make the overall offense more effective regardless of scoring less. Nash I dont need to explain.

[DMAVS41]

With Rose=28-6=82%
without Rose=15-7=68%

Damn shame when that raises questions nowadays.

Yea, but 15-7 without your star player is hugely impressive. That is a 45 win team essentially without Rose this year. Only 3 teams in the league other than the Bulls are going to do that his year. Spurs, Thunder, and Heat.....

I don't agree with the article at all. Rose deserved his MVP last year. But his supporting cast is a lot better than Rose fans care to admit.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Rose career ast avg: 6.7 Wade: 6.3

Rondo's a superior passer, he would make the overall offense more effective regardless of scoring less. Nash I dont need to explain.
I highly doubt Rondo would make a more effective offense this year over what Rose has done...maybe the same, but definitely not better.

Rose has been exactly what you could ask for in a new age PG this year, the perfect balance between aggressor and facilitator.

[Go Getter]

Rose career ast avg: 6.7 Wade: 6.3

Rondo's a superior passer, he would make the overall offense more effective regardless of scoring less. Nash I dont need to explain.
He's not passing the ball to KG, Paul Pierce, or Ray Allen.

He is at the top of the key trying to score, that's what we need from our PG.


Rondo can't do that sorry.


And Nash can pass and monopolize the ball but we need someone to put up 20 shots a game all year and defend the other team's best PG and sometimes SG. Can Nash do that?:coleman:

[Tenchi Ryu]

Yea, but 15-7 without your star player is hugely impressive. That is a 45 win team essentially without Rose this year. Only 3 teams in the league other than the Bulls are going to do that his year. Spurs, Thunder, and Heat.....

I don't agree with the article at all. Rose deserved his MVP last year. But his supporting cast is a lot better than Rose fans care to admit.
Don't get me wrong, without Rose, this was still an EXCELLENT run for the Bulls. But like you and I agree, these crap writers and Reporters who try to insist that Rose doesn't make a difference is ridiculous.

[poido123]

not that old...

and funny u say the second sentence... people said that about the clippers after gaining cp3... HAHAHA

seriously, sometimes **** the nba, and its dumbass fans who can't even ball..

.... playoff's and hooters... thats all i care about when it comes to nba. this has been a wack ****ing couple of seasons. **** u fans of a bunch of mentally weak, live by the foul, chucking ass stars....

only stars you guys should be proud of is durant and rose.... thats it. everyone else is embarrassing.

I like this post well said :applause:

As far as quality of the NBA product, the 80's and 90's had far more bang for buck, id say 70's too but i wasnt around to watch any of that. Players were trash talking, fouls were often hard and deserved, particularly in the playoffs. I really dont think alot of todays generation of kids who worship the Kobes, Lebrons, Durants really grasp how tough and how much better the NBA was before they came along.

[DMAVS41]

Don't get me wrong, without Rose, this was still an EXCELLENT run for the Bulls. But like you and I agree, these crap writers and Reporters who try to insist that Rose doesn't make a difference is ridiculous.

Of course he makes a difference. They have a good shot at the title with him and no shot without him.

And even with the Bulls going 15-7 without him....they went 28-6 with him. He's clearly valuable and one of the best players in the league. Nobody should ever dispute that.

What I dispute is the notion that its Rose and a bunch of other guys that...and the word "can't" is used to describe them far too often. Its a great team. A team that isn't perfect, but its very very very good. A team that will be very difficult to beat if Rose plays great in the playoffs. And that is exactly the way it should be. If your star player plays great and you lose...then you don't have enough. But lets wait and see what happens with this team if Rose plays great...because that is what it should take to win.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Of course he makes a difference. They have a good shot at the title with him and no shot without him.

And even with the Bulls going 15-7 without him....they went 28-6 with him. He's clearly valuable and one of the best players in the league. Nobody should ever dispute that.

What I dispute is the notion that its Rose and a bunch of other guys that...and the word "can't" is used to describe them far too often. Its a great team. A team that isn't perfect, but its very very very good. A team that will be very difficult to beat if Rose plays great in the playoffs. And that is exactly the way it should be. If your star player plays great and you lose...then you don't have enough. But lets wait and see what happens with this team if Rose plays great...because that is what it should take to win.
I never understood this notion where a player is not considered great unless he carries a group of scrubs.

[DMAVS41]

I never understood this notion where a player is not considered great unless he carries a group of scrubs.

I don't either. I'm certainly not saying that at all.

[Go Getter]

Of course he makes a difference. They have a good shot at the title with him and no shot without him.

And even with the Bulls going 15-7 without him....they went 28-6 with him. He's clearly valuable and one of the best players in the league. Nobody should ever dispute that.

What I dispute is the notion that its Rose and a bunch of other guys that...and the word "can't" is used to describe them far too often. Its a great team. A team that isn't perfect, but its very very very good. A team that will be very difficult to beat if Rose plays great in the playoffs. And that is exactly the way it should be. If your star player plays great and you lose...then you don't have enough. But lets wait and see what happens with this team if Rose plays great...because that is what it should take to win.
:rolleyes:

ok man you're laying it on kinda thick.

[DMAVS41]

:rolleyes:

ok man you're laying it on kinda thick.

Really? The Bulls aren't a great team this year? Ok....

[poido123]

:lol Heat fans drawing up new agendas to discredit Rose's MVP, its embarassing. :facepalm

He shouldn't win MVP because his team is good? Team can play good basketball when he's injured? Who would of thought...

Some of you Heat fans should just keep quiet already. If you want something to talk about, maybe the fact that your "Failed" experiment isnt going so well. The fact that your team of misfits with all the talent and athleticism in the world arent getting it done. That would probably make for a better thread title than this one. Probably add Lebron's phantom act in the finals, while being humiliated by the Mavs would probably fit somewhere in this thread too. :eek:

[TheBluest]

Yea, but 15-7 without your star player is hugely impressive. That is a 45 win team essentially without Rose this year. Only 3 teams in the league other than the Bulls are going to do that his year. Spurs, Thunder, and Heat.....

I don't agree with the article at all. Rose deserved his MVP last year. But his supporting cast is a lot better than Rose fans care to admit.


It's a 45win team in a 66gm shortened season. So 45-21 Very good without an MVP and no 2 guard <--------remember this argument was used for Rose last year.

I bet no one would have pegged them to be on pace to win 45gms this season without Rose.

So add 16 more games for an 82gm season and you have a 55-27 team. That's 7gms difference between this year and last year so which does it speak more favorably of....


1 - The Bulls Have and Always Had a Very Good Team

or

2 - Derrick Rose Value is Worth 7 losses


We all saw Rose's face after they beat the Heat @ home a few weeks back. Dude was a SHOOK ONE

:kobe:

[Go Getter]

Really? The Bulls aren't a great team this year? Ok....
They are playing well but not very very very very very good and they aren't great. We are scrapping together victories but we could play better.

It would be tougher if Dwight had his head on straight and Lebron was in Cleveland with the Cavs and Bosh on the Raptors but they did what they did and weakened the East. All that matters in the games between the about 8 teams that have a chance in hell of competing for anything this year.

[Go Getter]

It's a 45win team in a 66gm shortened season. So 45-21 Very good without an MVP and no 2 guard <--------remember this argument was used for Rose last year.

I bet no one would have pegged them to be on pace to win 45gms this season without Rose.

So add 16 more games for an 82gm season and you have a 55-27 team. That's 7gms difference between this year and last year so which does it speak more favorably of....


1 - The Bulls Have and Always Had a Very Good Team

or

2 - Derrick Rose Value is Worth 7 losses


We all so Rose's face after they beat the Heat @ home a few weeks back. Dude was a SHOOK ONE

:kobe:
90 Mil says he was feeling aight son.

:yaohappy:

[DMAVS41]

They are playing well but not very very very very very good and they aren't great. We are scrapping together victories but we could play better.

It would be tougher if Dwight had his head on straight and Lebron was in Cleveland with the Cavs and Bosh on the Raptors but they did what they did and weakened the East. All that matters in the games between the about 8 teams that have a chance in hell of competing for anything this year.

But that is what great teams do. They find a way to win when dealing with injuries. They "will" some wins. They scrap together some wins.

This is a team that if Rose was healthy for the full 66 could have won something like 55 games or more.

The truth is, and its the same as last year, that if Rose plays great...the Bulls are almost impossible to beat. It will likely be that way in the playoffs again this year. That, in my opinion, is the sign of a great supporting cast.

[Pharcyde]

Bulls' defense is their real MVP. Rose is almost 24 yrs.old. He needs to improve his mid range jumper if he wants to have a longer NBA Career. He already missed a lot of games this season.

Why does he need to shoot more of the worst shot in basketball? Rose's game is fine.

[hitmanyr2k]

:facepalm

If the 2012 Bulls team was identical to the 2011 Bulls team where Noah was out for nearly half the season, where 38 year old Kurt Thomas started about 40 games, where one of the worst shooting guards in Bulls history Keith Bogans started for all 82 games, where Carlos Boozer missed 23 games due to injury, where John Lucas was glued to the bench and no factor whatsoever...do we honestly think they would be doing as well this year if Rose missed games? It makes no sense that people keep trying to compare this season and last season as if it's the same circumstances. It's beyond idiotic at this point.

[Go Getter]

But that is what great teams do. They find a way to win when dealing with injuries. They "will" some wins. They scrap together some wins.

This is a team that if Rose was healthy for the full 66 could have won something like 55 games or more.

The truth is, and its the same as last year, that if Rose plays great...the Bulls are almost impossible to beat. It will likely be that way in the playoffs again this year. That, in my opinion, is the sign of a great supporting cast.
Look at our division and get back to me.

[DMAVS41]

Look at our division and get back to me.

What does that have to do with my post?

If Rose plays great....the Bulls are going to be extremely difficult to beat. I don't get this notion that its too much to ask of your star player to play great.

That is what it should take to win.

[knicksman]

What a joke of an article. This year has nothing to do with last year. Last year Rose played 81 games and led his team to 62 wins.

Rose's season last year fit all of the historical criteria for winning MVP. Somebody new and unexpected, great regular season record, clear cut best player on his team, quality numbers, and iirc the bulls beat a lot of the best teams in big games last year.

Nobody had as good of a case as Rose last year. Rose deserved it.

The article should blame Lebron for teaming up with Wade, Thunder not performing quite as expected, Thibs being a great coach, Dirk missing 9 games...etc.

All of that in part led to Rose deservedly winning MVP.

I don't understand why people can't grasp the difference between best player and MVP. It's extremely frustrating.

Rose had no case as the best player last year....or really top 5 in my opinion. But he had the best case for MVP. Two hugely different concepts.

but the real meaning of mvp really is the most impactful player. Maybe the article really is basing on that criteria.

[DMAVS41]

but the real meaning of mvp really is the most impactful player. Maybe the article really is basing on that criteria.

that isn't the real meaning. the mvp clearly does not go to the best or most impactful player in the league. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

based on the standards for MVP over the last 2 decades or so...Rose deserved it last year.

[BGriffin's Dad]

cp3 > rose

and he'll probably win the mvp this year (if Griffin doesn't) after taking the clippers to and possibly past the WCF.

[knicksman]

that isn't the real meaning. the mvp clearly does not go to the best or most impactful player in the league. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

based on the standards for MVP over the last 2 decades or so...Rose deserved it last year.

I think it is. Its just that its hard to measure impact so to make it easier, they just award it to the best player on the best team.

[DMAVS41]

I think it is. Its just that its hard to measure impact so to make it easier, they just award it to the best player on the best team.

LOL...then Rose absolutely deserved it last year. He was clearly the best player on the best regular season team.

:confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

LOL...then Rose absolutely deserved it last year. He was clearly the best player on the best regular season team.

:confusedshrug:

yah but I think what the article is trying to mean is the real meaning which is the most valuable player in the league and not the best player on the best team. Shaq is the most valuable player in the league during his prime or maybe ever since he entered the league. I consider shaq more valuable than jordan btw yet jordan or nash has more mvps than him.

[rodman91]

cp3 > rose

and he'll probably win the mvp this year (if Griffin doesn't) after taking the clippers to and possibly past the WCF.

Mvp
Rose: 1
Paul : 0
Standings
Bulls : 43-13 (best record)
Clippers: 33-22 ( 7th best record)
Rose: 22.8 ppg 8 apg
Paul : 19.3 ppg 9 apg

Your dream is collapsing... :roll:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l78gmbkUE21qzk61t.gif

[BGriffin's Dad]

Mvp
Rose: 1
Paul : 0
Standings
Bulls : 43-13 (best record)
Clippers: 33-22 ( 7th best record)
Rose: 22.8 ppg 8 apg
Paul : 19.3 ppg 9 apg

Paul: 19.3 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 9.0 APG, 2.4 SPG, 48.1% FG, 84.7% FT, 36.5% 3PT, 18 double-doubles
Rose: 22.8 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 8.0 APG, 0.9 SPG, 45.0% FG, 81.9% FT, 31.4% 3PT, 9 double-doubles

2010-11 Clippers: 32-50 (39.0%)
This Year: 33-22 (60.0%)

2010-11 Bulls: 62-20 (75.6%)
This Year: 43-13 (76.8%)

CP3 puts up equal rebounds, more assists, more steals, better FG%, better FT%, better 3pt%, more doubles, and helped take his new team to a much better record (21% improvement) and into the playoffs.

Rose... 3.5 more points and... that's it. :oldlol:

[rodman91]

Paul: 19.3 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 9.0 APG, 2.4 SPG, 48.1% FG, 84.7% FT, 36.5% 3PT, 18 double-doubles
Rose: 22.8 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 8.0 APG, 0.9 SPG, 45.0% FG, 81.9% FT, 31.4% 3PT, 9 double-doubles

2010-11 Clippers: 32-50 (39.0%)
This Year: 33-22 (60.0%)

2010-11 Bulls: 62-20 (75.6%)
This Year: 43-13 (76.8%)

CP3 puts up equal rebounds, more assists, more steals, better FG%, better FT%, better 3pt%, more doubles, and helped take his new team to a much better record (21% improvement) and into the playoffs.

Rose... 3.5 more points and... that's it. :oldlol:

Who cares that much improvement when his team almost win as much as 8th spot level team? You are dreaming if you think Paul or Griffin can win MVP this year. :lol

Who cares %FG, %TS or more rebouding point guard. It's about winning or losing.Rose carried Bulls to 1st spot in the league last year. He won MVP. We made ECF. This year he's out of MVP talks because of injuries.

What Paul did? He is getting extra-love because of "true point guard" bullshit.

[Artillery]

WORST MVP since Nash/Iverson - Merely an all-star level player elevated to elite status ONLY due to the media(and not based on his abilities)

[ballinhun8]

WORST MVP since Nash/Iverson - Merely an all-star level player elevated to elite status ONLY due to the media(and not based on his abilities)

Like LeBron?


Only a stat passer not a performer?




Really tho, why would an article come out like this? Do we take away Tom Brady's MVP because his team won games with their backup? Does Dirk's get taken sway because they lost in round 1?


Last years Bulls team and this years are different. More games as a cohesive unit will give teams better chemistry and is going to show in the W-L column. Guess that is a hard concept for some posters to accept.

[guy]

WORST MVP since Nash/Iverson - Merely an all-star level player elevated to elite status ONLY due to the media(and not based on his abilities)

Nash was like 5 years before so thats not really much of an insult.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'm a Rose hater, and I be so butthurt he won and is successful in the NBA
:biggums: :biggums:

[NumberSix]

Hit the nail on the head...

I don't know in what world is 15-7>29-6.

/thread:facepalm
He didn't say the Bulls are BETTER without Rose. Obviously they're better with him. He's just making the point that having the best record doesn't automatically make your star player the single most valuable player in the league.

Just like how winning the championship doesn't mean your team has the best player, having the best regular season record doesn't mean your team has the MVP.

Btw, Coach Tibbs is more valuable than Derrick Rose.

[knickswin]

It's interesting to me how virtually all the Bulls fans defend Rose. It's not necessarily a bad thing that the Bulls' success probably comes more from their excellent teamwork and defense than the domination of one single player. In fact, I'd say it's a good thing.

Not saying Rose shouldn't have gotten it. MVP is a screwed up award anyway. What does it even mean? Best player? To me, that was Dirk Nowitzki last year. Best player on best team? okay, then it was Rose or Parker or maybe Lebron. Most important player to a team winning 50+ games? Well, Dwight Howard probably would have deserved that considering how they run their offense around him and he anchors the defense.

I'm not a Rose hater by any stretch, but to me it's a fair question to ask whether the Bulls really need Rose. He is their most dynamic player on offense. He is also rather ball dominant and there was certainly a problem last year with how the team's offense would struggle because Rose had a hard time dealing with traps in the pick and roll. Maybe they wouldn't have been so easy to shut down if they had played more team oriented ball in those situations. He is fantastic at getting to the rim, but is also turnover prone because he passes with his feet in the air.

Anyway, I think Rose is a very good player. I just think for a team that plays as well as the Bulls, you might not be getting huge marginal returns out of the guy.

[Pointguard]

What player was the most influential against the elite in the league last year?

What player won more games than Rose in the 4th quarter last year?

What good team lost more games to injury of their 2nd and 3rd best players?

What great team had one explosive and creative player?

What team dominated the elite last year?

Who can you say was a better leader?

What good team finished as strong as Chicago despite all of their injuries/changes?

What coach spoke higher of their player than Thibes last year?

What player caused more havoc by getting to the rim from the perimeter?

What team won more than any other team despite key injuries, new team, new coach, new system, new starting lineups? And contrast that with Miami and the Lakers who have way more veterans, and team familiarity.

What player thoroughly outplayed the best at his position, which is the best position in the sport, while guarding them? Even DH didn't guard DMC in a critical game at the end of the year - and he was the only decent scoring center in the league.

And this is a Chicago team that couldn't break a trap in the playoffs. The offense is very different this year. The front line has been consistent and stable. Whereas, the team didn't have a player that stepped up in the playoffs and the offensive sets were stale - this year the team knows where the holes are and how to exploit overplays on the first option.

[Pointguard]

To suggest that the Bulls offensive schemes and execution are the same as last year is totally ludacris. Noah is a totally different player as is Boozer. Asik and Taj have just gotten better and Thibes isn't the control freak he was last year so the guards are given much more free reign and they score more. Same with Korver. Last year was all discipline from coach Thibes and this year its more about execution and playing freely.

[Tenchi Ryu]

To suggest that the Bulls offensive schemes and execution are the same as last year is totally ludacris. Noah is a totally different player as is Boozer. Asik and Taj have just gotten better and Thibes isn't the control freak he was last year so the guards are given much more free reign and they score more. Same with Korver. Last year was all discipline from coach Thibes and this year its more about execution and playing freely.
And we're done here folks, wrap it up, and don't forget the doggy bag.

[imdaman99]

i really dont like rose and hate the bulls, but he was the mvp. he was their closer. he doesnt shy away from the big moments. sure they can beat the celtics and heat for a game here a game there without him. but they would get annihilated in a series against a good team without him. with him, they have a shot.

[Chicago Brawls]

What does winning this season has to do with an award last season?

:rolleyes:

Besides:

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Keith+Bogans+Chicago+Bulls+v+Atlanta+Hawks+orwtmI9 AZWTl.jpg

"I'll give ya 4 points a game, and sometimes six, for the win buddy"

[All Net]

Maybe it was valid if Bulls were the same team and weren

[swi7ch]

This is news? No one outside of CHI thinks Rose should be MVP. No one.

[Derka]

So their record THIS season casts aspersions on his performance...LAST season.

Way to go, ESPN.

[Pointguard]

This is news? No one outside of CHI thinks Rose should be MVP. No one.
Where did you get that from?
The voting for MVP was a landslide, incredibly lopsided. Nobody else got five first place votes. We were saying it on these boards since the Allstar break last year and that was before the best record looked feasible. And I'm not from Chitown or in it.