Gilmore vs Olajuwon

[jlauber]

Interesting...

A 35-38 year old Gilmore faced a 22-25 year old Hakeem in 19 H2H games. From what I could gather, Hakeem was the starting center against Gilmore, although I could not confirm that the two exclusively defended each other.

Given the fact that Hakeem was the starting center in 23 H2H's against Kareem (and in their 5 playoff H2H's, it was SAMPSON who was assigned to Kareem), I suspect that the two did indeed guard each other for much of those H2H's.

Now, this data includes Gilmore's last season in the league, at age 38, and when he only played on 13 mpg. In that last season, the two went at it for three games, and Artis only played a TOTAL of 32 minutes in those three games.

And, this data is only scoring and FG%'s.

Once again, all 19 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 21.4 ppg on .513 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 17.4 ppg on .670 shooting.


Throw out those last three games, and the two went at it in 16 games, from 84-85 thru 86-87, and when Gilmore was between 35-37, and Hakeem was ages 22-24.

Hakeem averaged 20.7 ppg on .516 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 20.3 ppg on .680 shooting (!)


And, in their battles from 84-85 thru 85-86, covering 10 H2H games (Artis at ages 35 and 36, while Hakeem was 22 and 23)

Hakeem averaged 18.7 ppg on .493 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting.


Now, how much they actually defended each other still does not diminish what Gilmore accomplished. It just confirms that Gilmore was/is unquestionably one of the most under-rated centers of all-time.

[bizil]

Interesting...

A 35-38 year old Gilmore faced a 22-25 year old Hakeem in 19 H2H games. From what I could gather, Hakeem was the starting center against Gilmore, although I could not confirm that the two exclusively defended each other.

Given the fact that Hakeem was the starting center in 23 H2H's against Kareem (and in their 5 playoff H2H's, it was SAMPSON who was assigned to Kareem), I suspect that the two did indeed guard each other for much of those H2H's.

Now, this data includes Gilmore's last season in the league, at age 38, and when he only played on 13 mpg. In that last season, the two went at it for three games, and Artis only played a TOTAL of 32 minutes in those three games.

And, this data is only scoring and FG%'s.

Once again, all 19 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 21.4 ppg on .513 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 17.4 ppg on .670 shooting.


Throw out those last three games, and the two went at it in 16 games, from 84-85 thru 86-87, and when Gilmore was between 35-37, and Hakeem was ages 22-24.

Hakeem averaged 20.7 ppg on .516 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 20.3 ppg on .680 shooting (!)


And, in their battles from 84-85 thru 85-86, covering 10 H2H games (Artis at ages 35 and 36, while Hakeem was 22 and 23)

Hakeem averaged 18.7 ppg on .493 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting.


Gilmore is unquestionably one of the most under-rated centers of all-time.

Most definitely agree! A Train was a beast and should have been in the HOF long ago. I'm glad he got in though. He had great longevity as well in terms of being an elite center. Gilmore, Bellamy, and Thurmond in particular seem to not really get their just due. They battled in eras where the center pool was deep. A prime A Train today would be the best center in the L in my opinion.

[FindingTim]

Gilmore may be underrated, but he sure kicks ass in NBA 2K12.
also, I think it's very transparent now that Gilmore >> Olajuwon.

[chocolatethunder]

Hakeem wasn't the same player when he was young. When he was young he still relied on his athleticism and he was really still learning basketball. To me he had a late peak. His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

[jlauber]

Most definitely agree! A Train was a beast and should have been in the HOF long ago. I'm glad he got in though. He had great longevity as well in terms of being an elite center. Gilmore, Bellamy, and Thurmond in particular seem to got really get their just due. They battled in eras were the center pool was deep. A prime A Train today would be the best center in the L in my opinion.

I will take the time to post the Gilmore-Kareem H2H's one of these days. The two basically came into the league around the same time (although Artis was in the ABA for several seasons), and both retired around the same time (Kareem had a slightly longer career.)

From the initial research, it appears that in the H2H's that I looked up (and there were quite a few), that Kareem slightly outscored Artis, while Artis outshot Kareem by a considerable margin.

It will be interesting.

Also, the Lanier-Kareem H2H's seemed to be close, as well.

From the research that I have done, Moses appeared to get the best of all of them (I KNOW that he outplayed Kareem by a considerable margin in their 40 H2H's...and I have posted that before.)

[jlauber]

Hakeem wasn't the same player when he was young. When he was young he still relied on his athleticism and he was really still learning basketball. To me he had a late peak. His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.

[tpols]

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.
The 80s had higher point totals and percentages than the 90s right?

[jlauber]

The 80s had higher point totals and percentages than the 90s right?

Yes they did, although the decline from '85 thru '94 was a small steady one. In 84-85 the NBA averaged 110.2 ppg on .491 shooting. A decade later it was down to 101.5 ppg on .466 shooting. It was no surprise that Hakeem's CAREER HIGH FG% (and by a solid margin) came in his ROOKIE season when he shot .538 in a league that shot .491. Hakeem's next highest FG% season was in 92-93, when he shot .529 in a league that shot .473.

BTW, as a sidenote, Hakeem had three of his best post-seasons in his first four years (his 2nd thru 4th seasons.) In the 85-86 post-season, he averaged 26.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg and shot .530 (in 20 playoff games.) In the 86-87 post-season, he averaged 29.2 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and shot .615 (in 10 playoff games.) And in his 87-88 post-season, he averaged 37.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg and shot .571 (albeit, in only four playoff games.)

[Xiao Yao You]

His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

The game of basketball changed. The way most teams play now goes back to that team with Hakeem posting and kicking to guys spotting for 3's.

Artis had the GOAT fro!

[jlauber]

Hakeem did battle Moses to close to mostly a draw from Hakeem's first season, 84-85, thru Moses' last full season, 89-90.

Here were their numbers in those 12 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 20.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, and shot .467.
Moses averaged 21.6 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and shot .453.

Granted, Moses' last great season was in 84-85, and he had even greater one's prior to that, but he was still a force thru 86-87, and a very good player up thru that 89-90 season, when he averaged 18.9 ppg, 10.0 rpg, and shot .480.

And the Hakeem fans will argue that Hakeem didn't reach his peak until around the early to mid-90's.

[iamgine]

Hakeem, like most players, was raw his first two seasons.

Try comparing his third season onwards vs Artis.

[millwad]

Jlauber, you're full of shit as always

This is the correct stats regarding Olajuwon's head to head vs Artis;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=olajuha01

And Artis didn't even face Olajuwon 10 times from 84-86.. :facepalm

[millwad]

Hakeem, like most players, was raw his first two seasons.

Try comparing his third season onwards vs Artis.

The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..:oldlol:

[millwad]

Hakeem did battle Moses to close to mostly a draw from Hakeem's first season, 84-85, thru Moses' last full season, 89-90.

Here were their numbers in those 12 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 20.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, and shot .467.
Moses averaged 21.6 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and shot .453.

Granted, Moses' last great season was in 84-85, and he had even greater one's prior to that, but he was still a force thru 86-87, and a very good player up thru that 89-90 season, when he averaged 18.9 ppg, 10.0 rpg, and shot .480.

And the Hakeem fans will argue that Hakeem didn't reach his peak until around the early to mid-90's.

Hakeem fans will argue that you're full of shit and that you posted the wrong stats..:facepalm

[jlauber]

The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..:oldlol:

Dickwad...

Do you EVER do ANY research?

They faced each other SIX times in the 84-85 season. I don't have time to pull the numbers right now, but Gilmore dominated Hakeem in those six meetings.

Of course, all YOU have to do is look up the actual H2H's YOURSELF!

What a complete IDIOT!

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem wasn't the same player when he was young. When he was young he still relied on his athleticism and he was really still learning basketball. To me he had a late peak. His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

Yeah, he started playing basketball around 15, iirc, so he had only been playing basketball for a little more than half a decade when he entered the NBA. And it's not a sport he grew up watching either.

The Hakeem I see in 80's games was much different than the one I watched growing up. Quicker and more explosive, but far less disciplined defensively, and he wasn't showing much of his passing skills, or much of the shooting range he showed later.

The baseline fadeaway was his go to move even early, but the endless counter moves seemed to develop more later and he also seemed to improve his jump hook and go to that much more.

I did see him making some face up jumpers in an '88 playoff game I was watching vs Dallas not long ago, and saw that and the more complete skill set more in some early 90's games even before Rudy T, but not to the same extent.

But he definitely went to another level with Rudy who built the entire offense around Hakeem by spacing the floor, giving him more room to operate and having everything go through him. He became a much better and more willing passer in particular.

He definitely peaked late too. I'd say he peaked in '94 at 31, and his prime was really from around '93-'96 at 30-33 years old.

One thing that's impressive about young Hakeem, though is how much he raised his game from '86-'88, he dominated the '86 playoffs and continued that the next 2 years despite his teams falling apart.

It also didn't help that Hakeem seemed to be underutilized on some of his earlier teams and that the '90 team's offense in particular seemed to be a mess.



From the research that I have done, Moses appeared to get the best of all of them (I KNOW that he outplayed Kareem by a considerable margin in their 40 H2H's...and I have posted that before.)

A key part of this though is how much they actually defended it each other, it's why head to head numbers only tell us so much, not to mention that what you do vs the other 81 teams obviously tells you a lot more about a player.

They defended each other a lot in the '83 finals(not exclusively, but a lot), but from game 2 of the '81 series and the parts I've seen from the rest of the series, it seems like they spent a lot of time not matched up.


Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.

You really have to look past the numbers. One because the style was a lot different in the 80's, and also because of how much Houston's system changed when Rudy T took over. You could say that everything revolving around Hakeem inflated his numbers if you want, but you could also say that very few could've handled such a load(while being the best defensive player in the league) and won a championship doing so.

It's why you really have to watch the games with player's this good. A lot of what made Hakeem great in his prime at both ends won't show up in stat sheets. The numbers won't tell you how good he was at showing on screen/rolls and recovering in the paint, how well he learned to pass out of double teams, how he could work to get a shot at any time and how he was one of the 2 best centers ever as far as "clutch shots" along with Kareem.

As far as stats, I'll use the '89-'90 season as an example.

Hakeem had perhaps the greatest statistical season of his career. He averaged 24.3 ppg, 14 rpg, 2.9 apg, 4.6 bpg and 2.1 spg on 50.1 FG%/54.1 TS%. Yet, most had Patrick Ewing as the best center that year, and Hakeem wasn't regarded like he was from '93-'96.

And that was with him sidelined for the preseason with a blood cot and having a slow start to the season in November. After November, he averaged 25.5 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.9 apg, 4.6 bpg and 2.3 spg on 50.3% shooting.

This included the following games

24 pts, 21 rbs, 12 blks, 5 stls
25 pts, 20 rbs, 5 asts, 9 blks, 3 stls,
32 pts, 25 rbs, 10 blks, 3 stls, 10/18 FG
41 pts, 14 rbs, 4 asts, 3 stls, 15/23 FG
29 pts, 21 rbs, 5 blks, 4 stls
38 pts, 15 rbs, 7 blks, 14/25 FG
23 pts, 21 rbs, 5 asts, 4 blks, 10/19 FG
32 pts, 20 rbs, 4 asts, 4 blks, 2 stls, 13/18 FG
32 pts, 17 rbs, 9 blks, 3 stls, 13/22 FG
37 pts, 25 rbs, 5 blks, 15/26 FG
41 pts, 14 rbs, 4 asts, 7 blks, 2 stls, 15/30 FG
29 pts, 18 rbs, 9 asts, 11 blks, 5 stls, 13/25 FG (initially credited with 10 asts, but had the quadruple double taken away)
21 pts, 20 rbs, 7 blks
18 pts, 16 rbs, 10 asts, 11 blks
52 pts, 18 rbs, 4 asts, 3 blks, 3 stls, 21/34 FG

In March, he had a month where he averaged 26 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 6.1 bpg and 2.8 spg.

He did pretty much everything, Eight 20/20 games, a 50 point game, three 40+ games, four triple doubles with 10+ blks in each, a quadruple double(arguably 2).

But as I mentioned, Hakeem clearly became a better player after this. Maybe he didn't ever have these kind of numbers again, but few would argue that he became a significantly better player.

[PTB Fan]

How much did they guard each other?

It changes a lot.

[chocolatethunder]

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.
There was a considerable difference offensively but you would only know this if you actually watched the games. First of all, he was not very polished when he was young and the dream shake certainly didn't exist and his baseline jumper wasn't money. But the most important difference was that when Rudy T arrived he ran the offense through Hakeem. Something that Hakeem probably wasn't capable of handling in his first few years. I'm not really concerned with per/36. He was a very different player and his "supposed" peak was his real peak.

[millwad]

Dickwad...

Do you EVER do ANY research?

They faced each other SIX times in the 84-85 season. I don't have time to pull the numbers right now, but Gilmore dominated Hakeem in those six meetings.

Of course, all YOU have to do is look up the actual H2H's YOURSELF!

What a complete IDIOT!

You're the complete idiot, you always have time..

Show the stats from those 6 games from 84-85, just share the link you got it from..

[millwad]

There was a considerable difference offensively but you would only know this if you actually watched the games. First of all, he was not very polished when he was young and the dream shake certainly didn't exist and his baseline jumper wasn't money. But the most important difference was that when Rudy T arrived he ran the offense through Hakeem. Something that Hakeem probably wasn't capable of handling in his first few years. I'm not really concerned with per/36. He was a very different player and his "supposed" peak was his real peak.

Don't bother, seriously, he always judge Hakeem based on stats. Just to test him I asked him to break down the '95 finals because he was spamming about how Hakeem got outplayed by Shaq that year in the 4 game final series..

He had no clue what so ever, he obviously just checked the boxscores and then he wrote the worst break down of a series I've ever seen.

He claimed that Shaq really outplayed Hakeem in game two of that series as well, in fact Hakeem outplayed Shaq in that game and had a huge 22 point first half while Shaq had a bad first half and the game was basically over after that and Houston had around a 15-20 point lead in the rest of the game and Shaq a majority of his points in garbage time.

Jlauber obviously never saw that game and when I confronted him with his terrible break down he wrote something like "So you can't score in the second half?" or some nonsense like that..:facepalm

He even ranks Thurmond higher than Olajuwon..

[Gotterdammerung]

JLauber should be better than this. :no:

How sad the biggest Wilt Chamberlain defender on this board actually has the same complex Wilt himself had - stats obsessed, context-free myopia. :facepalm

I watched the 1995 Finals, in 1995, and Hakeem thoroughly outplayed Shaq at every level. :coleman:

You can have the stats, and I'll have the real world results of 4-0 sweep and a proud Shaq admitting that "Hakeem dusted my butt" afterwards.

Stats are all too deceiving in this case, and perhaps for the early match-ups between Gilmore & the young Olajuwon.

[Gotterdammerung]

Come to think of it, I remember Hakeem having problems keeping Shaq off the boards in the first game of the 1995 Finals. He was face-guarding him instead of blocking him out when Orlando shot the ball, & Shaq easily got the boards regardless.

So Hakeem changed his tactics from game 2 through 4, and figured it out.

Stats can't tell you this contextual information. :no:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Come to think of it, I remember Hakeem having problems keeping Shaq off the boards in the first game of the 1995 Finals. He was face-guarding him instead of blocking him out when Orlando shot the ball, & Shaq easily got the boards regardless.

So Hakeem changed his tactics from game 2 through 4, and figured it out.

Stats can't tell you this contextual information. :no:

Yeah, Hakeem definitely won that match up, not just because of the sweep, but because of what Hakeem did to get the sweep.

Game 1- Shaq did outplay Hakeem in this one, but Hakeem had that timely tip in to win it. It was kind of bad luck for Shaq in this one, with 12 pts in the 4th, and a 3 pt lead with the ball with Anderson at the foul line. 99% of the time that's a win, and Anderson's choke job broke that team.

Game 2- Hakeem thoroughly outplayed Shaq in this one. The final stat line was close, might've favored one, but I don't remember and don't care. Hakeem dominated the first half and Houston opened up a huge lead and that was really when that game was won because with Shaq getting his numbers in the second half, Orlando never mounted a serious threat. They had a few runs here or there, but Houston handled them. This was the game when Shaq tried to guard Hakeem 1 on 1 and got in foul trouble doing so in the first half and became a non-factor.

Game 3- Pretty damn close, Houston sealed this one with a back-breaking Horry 3.

Game 4- Hakeem convincingly outplayed Shaq in this one for the sweep. Not particularly debatable.

When you break it down, it's clear. Nobody can deny that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in games 2 and 4. Shaq only outplayed Hakeem in game 1, and game 3 was at best, even.

Shaq did hold is own individually, and neither player could stop the other. Both needed help, and when they didn't get it, they were in foul trouble. Both also had their teammates help with the assignment at times with Horace Grant and Charles Jones.

It wasn't a case of Hakeem vs Robinson, or even Hakeem vs Ewing(despite Ewing battling).

It was a case of Shaq still playing his game, but Hakeem being the better, more experienced player than Shaq as he was in '95.

[WillyJakk]

I'm a Magic fan 1st, NBA fan 2nd and I watched that '95 Finals series thoroughly and trust me...

Hakeem outplayed Shaq, even though Shaq definitely got his but he got his differently.

You could clearly see Hakeem was in complete control of whatever it was he wanted to do and though Shaq was on his way to greatness, he wasn't quite there yet.

Gilmore was def a great C and underrated but from what I watched about him, he didn't have that killer instinct in him like the other greats did. He didn't have that "it" factor to him, although he was certainly a menace.

Posting certain stats or acknowledging players weren't quite at their peak (in this case Olajuwon) doesn't support the OP's "Old School Crusade".

Definitely misguided agenda driven threads...as usual.

Thing that sucks is I LOVE the old school legends but this guy forces posters (me) to call out not only the era but level of competition vs old school legends, thereby "disrespecting" (lol) these guys accomplishments (which I or no one else can take away) but because it's not supportive of these guys (OP and his ilk) they try to diss/ demean anyone who opposes their agenda.

:rolleyes:

[millwad]

Yeah, Hakeem definitely won that match up, not just because of the sweep, but because of what Hakeem did to get the sweep.

Game 1- Shaq did outplay Hakeem in this one, but Hakeem had that timely tip in to win it. It was kind of bad luck for Shaq in this one, with 12 pts in the 4th, and a 3 pt lead with the ball with Anderson at the foul line. 99% of the time that's a win, and Anderson's choke job broke that team.

Game 2- Hakeem thoroughly outplayed Shaq in this one. The final stat line was close, might've favored one, but I don't remember and don't care. Hakeem dominated the first half and Houston opened up a huge lead and that was really when that game was won because with Shaq getting his numbers in the second half, Orlando never mounted a serious threat. They had a few runs here or there, but Houston handled them. This was the game when Shaq tried to guard Hakeem 1 on 1 and got in foul trouble doing so in the first half and became a non-factor.

Game 3- Pretty damn close, Houston sealed this one with a back-breaking Horry 3.

Game 4- Hakeem convincingly outplayed Shaq in this one for the sweep. Not particularly debatable.

When you break it down, it's clear. Nobody can deny that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in games 2 and 4. Shaq only outplayed Hakeem in game 1, and game 3 was at best, even.

Shaq did hold is own individually, and neither player could stop the other. Both needed help, and when they didn't get it, they were in foul trouble. Both also had their teammates help with the assignment at times with Horace Grant and Charles Jones.

It wasn't a case of Hakeem vs Robinson, or even Hakeem vs Ewing(despite Ewing battling).

It was a case of Shaq still playing his game, but Hakeem being the better, more experienced player than Shaq as he was in '95.

I feel the exact same way and your break down was spot on.

Hakeem didn't "kill" Shaq like some people tend to believe due Shaq's comments well after the series, he really had a great series vs Hakeem and he was the player who played Hakeem the best during Hakeem's back-to-backs and he wasn't even in his prime, Robinson and Ewing were at their peaks or at least very close to their peaks and still they got abused badly but Shaq still held his own.

Shaq definitely deserved to win that first game, without the huge choke job from Anderson that series may have looked completely different but in terms of invidual play, yes, Hakeem outplayed Shaq and his teammates outplayed Shaq's teammates.

[Whoah10115]

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.




The difference is how much better he made his teammates and how much more impact came with those numbers.



Kevin Love is gonna have seasons where he's averaging less points than he is now and most of those will likely be better than his current season.

[Kblaze8855]

Really...the more you look into it the more clear it becomes that bigmen have not really changed since maybe the late 50s.

And there is no reason they would have. For all the talk of the game evolving bigman skills have always been the same.

I wish I could have seen more of guys like Lanier, Reed, and Unseld in their primes. Lanier for example had 25, 29, 42, 31, 35, and 37 against Wilt in one stretch of games and then suddenly he seems to have been shut down(like 9 points...13..maybe 20..games with 3 made shots). Wilt was scoring more than usual for his Laker days too. You can look up the numbers but cant really get the story. I bet those battles were brutal.

And those big center matchups are pretty much dead. Unless its Dwight vs Bynum the only real head to head matchups to watch are usually the high profile guards.

Id love to sit down and watch Gilmore/Lanier on TNT.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I feel the exact same way and your break down was spot on.

Hakeem didn't "kill" Shaq like some people tend to believe due Shaq's comments well after the series, he really had a great series vs Hakeem and he was the player who played Hakeem the best during Hakeem's back-to-backs and he wasn't even in his prime, Robinson and Ewing were at their peaks or at least very close to their peaks and still they got abused badly but Shaq still held his own.

Shaq definitely deserved to win that first game, without the huge choke job from Anderson that series may have looked completely different but in terms of invidual play, yes, Hakeem outplayed Shaq and his teammates outplayed Shaq's teammates.

Yeah, we're in complete agreement over the Shaq/Hakeem match up, we seem to have the same view on the series. Hakeem's teammates did outplay Shaq's like you said, which is interesting since Orlando had a more talented team than Houston, perhaps the most talented in the entire league. But with Anderson shooting 36%(and blowing an almost guaranteed game 1 win) and Scott shooting 31% prevented what could've been a good series. Houston was on a mission, though, the fact that every team they beat won 57 games says a lot.

The '95 Rockets had some obvious flaws, though. Their big men outside of Hakeem were very limited, which caused Horry to move to PF. They were a much more explosive offensive team than '94, but they weren't near the defensive team, which had to do with their size, and the absence of Thorpe and Maxwell. That size and Rudy T's system which spaced the floor made them a very weak rebounding team as well.

They also didn't have much depth, after about 1-6, that was about it. But I think many would be surprised at how well Horry was playing. He played his best basketball of his career in the '95 playoffs and looked like he could possibly be a future all-star. I wonder how many people know that Horry averaged 18/10/4 with 3 bpg and 2+ spg in the series. Elie was a key role player as well, but you don't expect him to put up 16/4/3/2 with shooting percentages of 65/57/90. Cassell was really coming into his own at the time as well. Smith was more quiet, but his 3 in game 1 completely changed the series.

I have to disagree on Ewing being at his peak in '94, though. That was the Ewing I was more familiar with growing up, but having checked out a lot of '90 games the past few years, I can say that '90 Ewing, was quicker, more explosive and more dominant. Plus, he did almost all of his work in the post and rarely drifted out to the perimeter, though he could make shots out there.

He was just a more capable player then. In fact, Stu Jackson had the Knicks half court offense really revolve around Ewing in the post, not unlike what Rudy T did with Dream. I don't think '94 Ewing could've carried such a load effectively. Many forget about Ewing's unbelievable series in '90 when he put his team on his back vs a much more talented Celtic team with Bird, McHale, Parish and Lewis. Unfortunately, they had no chance in the 2nd round vs a loaded team like the Bad Boys.

Ewing's true prime to me was from '90-'93, though you could call '94 the tail end of it. His peak was obviously '90, though he remained an elite player through '97. Robinson was at his peak in '95, though.

Ewing's horrific shooting in the finals showed Dream's improved individual defense as he contested his shots and forced him to drift out more. But despite his shooting, I respected Ewing for battling defensively on the boards. Outrebounded Dream by 3, had 8 blocks to tie the finals record at the time, and made Hakeem work. Though he got help with Mason guarding Dream very effectively at times and of course, the Knicks unbelievable team defense, which some would argue was the best of all time.

But it was different from the Spurs series when Hakeem got whatever he wanted. Granted, Robinson didn't get the help he needed like Ewing did. Though in a way Hakeem having to work as hard as he did and still coming through in the Knicks series was just as good of an example of Hakeem being unstoppable as the Spurs series.

Either way, despite Hakeem winning the match up with Ewing by a huge margin, it just seemed like more of a battle to me, and Dream did give Ewing his credit.

As much as I love how Hakeem played during the back to backs with him being one of my 5 all-time favorites, it still hurts that the '93 or '94 Knicks didn't win a title. I have a friend who said after the '94 series that he'd never watch basketball again, and I saw him recently a few years ago, and even being fully grown now, he says he hasn't really watched basketball since because of that series. :oldlol: Those remain the best Knick teams since the 70's and '73 was STILL the last title. :facepalm


Kevin Love is gonna have seasons where he's averaging less points than he is now and most of those will likely be better than his current season.

Yeah, Love is a good example, he's already impressed me quite a bit more than last year when he averaged 20/15. Love is getting better.

Despite that, I still doubt he'd end up on my top 10 list if I made one. Which is strange for a guy averaging 26/13. That's so rare that the last guy to do fully do it was Shaq in '00 with 30/14. Though Duncan had a rounded 26/13(25.5, 12.7) in '03 and Shaq also had a rounded 29/13 in '01(28.7, 12.7).

[millwad]

Yeah, we're in complete agreement over the Shaq/Hakeem match up, we seem to have the same view on the series. Hakeem's teammates did outplay Shaq's like you said, which is interesting since Orlando had a more talented team than Houston, perhaps the most talented in the entire league. But with Anderson shooting 36%(and blowing an almost guaranteed game 1 win) and Scott shooting 31% prevented what could've been a good series. Houston was on a mission, though, the fact that every team they beat won 57 games says a lot.




Yeah, Orlando definitely had a more talented team and I remember reading articles about Orlando being the clear favorites everywhere outside of Houston.

The '95 Rockets had some obvious flaws, though. Their big men outside of Hakeem were very limited, which caused Horry to move to PF. They were a much more explosive offensive team than '94, but they weren't near the defensive team, which had to do with their size, and the absence of Thorpe and Maxwell. That size and Rudy T's system which spaced the floor made them a very weak rebounding team as well.

I don't know if you agree but I still feel that the '95 team had some huge gaps. Kenny got abused through out those 2 years in the playoffs, Elie really wasn't starting material even though he was a hustler and a dedicated defender and he made a career of feeds from Hakeem. Then we have Horry who took Otis place and they didn't have Herrera to back Horry up etc..

The bench was garbage as well, I find it amazing how Hakeem lead that team without having any kind of decent big man to back him up. They had the corpse Jones backing him up late in the season and in the playoffs..



They also didn't have much depth, after about 1-6, that was about it. But I think many would be surprised at how well Horry was playing. He played his best basketball of his career in the '95 playoffs and looked like he could possibly be a future all-star. I wonder how many people know that Horry averaged 18/10/4 with 3 bpg and 2+ spg in the series. Elie was a key role player as well, but you don't expect him to put up 16/4/3/2 with shooting percentages of 65/57/90. Cassell was really coming into his own at the time as well. Smith was more quiet, but his 3 in game 1 completely changed the series.



Spot on, although I must say that Elie's stats wouldn't look anywhere close to what he put up in the finals without the feeds from Hakeem and the attention he got.

Cassell was obviously skilled and better than Smith by that time and he deserves some more recognition.

And yeah, Horry played great and the Houston-version of him gets really underrated by fans today. He was a key player for that team and just by looking at him back then you could easily believe that he was going to have a much more successful career individually.



I have to disagree on Ewing being at his peak in '94, though. That was the Ewing I was more familiar with growing up, but having checked out a lot of '90 games the past few years, I can say that '90 Ewing, was quicker, more explosive and more dominant. Plus, he did almost all of his work in the post and rarely drifted out to the perimeter, though he could make shots out there.

He was just a more capable player then. In fact, Stu Jackson had the Knicks half court offense really revolve around Ewing in the post, not unlike what Rudy T did with Dream. I don't think '94 Ewing could've carried such a load effectively. Many forget about Ewing's unbelievable series in '90 when he put his team on his back vs a much more talented Celtic team with Bird, McHale, Parish and Lewis. Unfortunately, they had no chance in the 2nd round vs a loaded team like the Bad Boys.

Ewing's true prime to me was from '90-'93, though you could call '94 the tail end of it. His peak was obviously '90, though he remained an elite player through '97. Robinson was at his peak in '95, though.

Ewing's horrific shooting in the finals showed Dream's improved individual defense as he contested his shots and forced him to drift out more. But despite his shooting, I respected Ewing for battling defensively on the boards. Outrebounded Dream by 3, had 8 blocks to tie the finals record at the time, and made Hakeem work. Though he got help with Mason guarding Dream very effectively at times and of course, the Knicks unbelievable team defense, which some would argue was the best of all time.



You're right about Ewing, I wrote that he was very close to his peak and that is obviously an exaggeration but the guy was still a great player.



But it was different from the Spurs series when Hakeem got whatever he wanted. Granted, Robinson didn't get the help he needed like Ewing did. Though in a way Hakeem having to work as hard as he did and still coming through in the Knicks series was just as good of an example of Hakeem being unstoppable as the Spurs series.


The spurs match up was just a nightmare for Robinson, the play of Hakeem in that series will never be forgotten, he was just beyond amazing. And you're completely right about help defense, NY swarmed Hakeem in '94 but Robinson didn't get any help at all which is just bad coaching. And it wasn't like Rodman was helping either, he got torched by Horry in that series..



Either way, despite Hakeem winning the match up with Ewing by a huge margin, it just seemed like more of a battle to me, and Dream did give Ewing his credit.


As much as I love how Hakeem played during the back to backs with him being one of my 5 all-time favorites, it still hurts that the '93 or '94 Knicks didn't win a title. I have a friend who said after the '94 series that he'd never watch basketball again, and I saw him recently a few years ago, and even being fully grown now, he says he hasn't really watched basketball since because of that series. :oldlol: Those remain the best Knick teams since the 70's and '73 was STILL the last title. :facepalm


Haha, I totally feel for that guy and I liked would have liked to see Ewing winning one as well, the guy played with a big heart!

I have downloaded a video about Houston's '94 season and both Ewing and Olauwon were class-acts, after the series they met in the garage and you could tell that they had true respect for each other and they hugged each other and Dream told him, "maybe next year", lol..

No b*tching or crying, true ballers with great amount of talent.

[jlauber]

You're the complete idiot, you always have time..

Show the stats from those 6 games from 84-85, just share the link you got it from..


Here again, I WILL do the RESEARCH, unlike yourself who NEVER does.


84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16


Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg




Now, I don't have much time (I have to work for a living), I will give you ONE link. From that YOU can do the rest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504070SAS.html

BTW, ANYONE can do this. You just have to take the time. It's all out there.

Now, whether Hakeem was actually defending Gilmore, or if it was Sampson, it does not matter. In Gilmore's first ten games against Hakeem's teams, Gilmore was the better player.

[Fazotronic]

Jlauber is always trying to underrate olajuwon by makin threads like this.
get a life.

[millwad]

Jlauber is always trying to underrate olajuwon by makin threads like this.
get a life.


The idiot Jlauber wrote this just a few days ago...




Using your RIDICULOUS logic, Hakeem was an AVERAGE FT shooter as a CENTER, BUT a BELOW AVERAGE FT SHOOTER in general , a good but nowhere near great rebounder (he was often outrebounded in the playoffs, even by hiw own teammates), a FAR BELOW AVERAGE passer (in fact a "black hole"..and averaged 2.5 apg in his career, which is quite simply...AWFUL, even for a CENTER), a good, but nowhere near great SCORER (hell he never came close to a scoring title), an AVERAGE, at best, FG% shooter (for a CENTER), and a good, but nowhere near great defender. He had MULTIPLE FLAWS.


So Jlauber basically thinks that;

1. Hakeem was an average FT-shooter.
2. Hakeem was a nowhere great rebounder
3. Hakeem was a black hole
4. Hakeem was a nowhere near great scorer
5. Hakeem was nowhere near a great FG% shooting center
6. Hakeem was nowhere near great on the defensive end..


One can only guess why Jlauber creates these topics a la Hakeem when he basically thinks that the guy is garbage..:facepalm

[millwad]

It's safe to say that Jlauber is a clown, I even have PM's from Wilt-fans regarding Jlauber about how they consider him to be a troll and the reason why people bash Wilt on this site..:roll:

[Fazotronic]

The idiot Jlauber wrote this just a few days ago...



So Jlauber basically thinks that;

1. Hakeem was an average FT-shooter.
2. Hakeem was a nowhere great rebounder
3. Hakeem was a black hole
4. Hakeem was a nowhere near great scorer
5. Hakeem was nowhere near a great FG% shooting center
6. Hakeem was nowhere near great on the defensive end..


http://i.min.us/idrgZW.gif

[Pointguard]

Really...the more you look into it the more clear it becomes that bigmen have not really changed since maybe the late 50s.

And there is no reason they would have. For all the talk of the game evolving bigman skills have always been the same.

I wish I could have seen more of guys like Lanier, Reed, and Unseld in their primes. Lanier for example had 25, 29, 42, 31, 35, and 37 against Wilt in one stretch of games and then suddenly he seems to have been shut down(like 9 points...13..maybe 20..games with 3 made shots). Wilt was scoring more than usual for his Laker days too. You can look up the numbers but cant really get the story. I bet those battles were brutal.

And those big center matchups are pretty much dead. Unless its Dwight vs Bynum the only real head to head matchups to watch are usually the high profile guards.

Id love to sit down and watch Gilmore/Lanier on TNT.
The big man back then might have had more heart and pride in them being big and playing big. Reed/Gilmore, Cowens/Lanier, Unseld/Reed, Thurmond/Cowens, Debusshere/Gus Johnson all intertwined, have no parallels today, and seem more like a declarations of war. Rarely do you see guys go down for the grit and grind like these guys did. Tyson Chandler wouldn't mind but the game has moved away from that. You fight for the low post, you fight for the rebound, you fight for position underneath the basket just because. When DH and Bynum play each other one invariably doesn't show up. Now they flop and don't go hard underneath. But a lot can shoot and dribble.

Wilt, probably saw something in Lanier's game that let him inside of his timing. Or maybe Lanier freaked when Wilt picked him up. All speculation on my part.

[Pointguard]

Ewing's true prime to me was from '90-'93, though you could call '94 the tail end of it. His peak was obviously '90, though he remained an elite player through '97. Robinson was at his peak in '95, though.

Ewing's horrific shooting in the finals showed Dream's improved individual defense as he contested his shots and forced him to drift out more. But despite his shooting, I respected Ewing for battling defensively on the boards. Outrebounded Dream by 3, had 8 blocks to tie the finals record at the time, and made Hakeem work. Though he got help with Mason guarding Dream very effectively at times and of course, the Knicks unbelievable team defense, which some would argue was the best of all time.


Yeah That was Ewing's prime. I don't understand what happened in '94. He began going outside a whole lot and it was the first time he seemed volunerable. I think it was off the court stuff. Nor was he a complete warrior anymore. And it coincided with that great team defense you talked about. Even Shaq said that team just kept coming after you.

[jlauber]

The big man back then might have had more heart and pride in them being big and playing big. Reed/Gilmore, Cowens/Lanier, Unseld/Reed, Thurmond/Cowens, Debusshere/Gus Johnson all intertwined, have no parallels today, and seem more like a declarations of war. Rarely do you see guys go down for the grit and grind like these guys did. Tyson Chandler wouldn't mind but the game has moved away from that. You fight for the low post, you fight for the rebound, you fight for position underneath the basket just because. When DH and Bynum play each other one invariably doesn't show up. Now they flop and don't go hard underneath. But a lot can shoot and dribble.

Wilt, probably saw something in Lanier's game that let him inside of his timing. Or maybe Lanier freaked when Wilt picked him up. All speculation on my part.

I saw listened to nearly all of the Wilt-Lanier battles. Lanier, like Kareem, was routinely taking 25-30+ shots against Wilt.

And, much like Kareem in 70-71, Wilt easily outplayed Lanier in 70-71, as well (outscoring him 20-12 in their five H2H's.) This from a Wilt in his last "20 ppg season" of his career, at age 34, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

Also, what was REALLY interesting was this...

in Wilt's 71-72 season, he averaged 14.8 ppg during the course of the entire season. While Lanier was putting up some big scoring games against Wilt, Chamberlain averaged 28.8 ppg against Lanier in their 5 H2H's games...and I am convinced on probably well over 70% shooting (he shot .649 against the league.) And BTW, Wilt also posted a 31-32 game against Lanier that season. And, I suspect that, much like Kareem in 71-72, Lanier put up numbers in blowout losses against Wilt. The Lakers beat the Pistons, 4-1, in their season matchup (losing one game by a 135-134 margin in OT, and in a game in which Lanier outscored Wilt by a 31-30 margin.) The other four games were Laker wins by margins of 13, 19, 20, and 29 points.

Then, in his LAST season, 72-73, in a season in which Wilt averaged 13.2 ppg, Lanier outscored Wilt 127-119 in their six H2H's (21 ppg to 20 ppg.) And Lanier averaged 23.8 ppg that season. Also LA went 5-1 against Detroit, with another two more blowout wins. Furthermore, Wilt outscored Lanier in the last five of those H2H's, by a 97-90 margin.

And, we KNOW that Chamberlain outshot Kareem in their six H2H's in 72-73 by a .737 to .450 margin, so there is a strong possibility that he was probably at around that margin against Lanier that season.

Here again, one can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have leveled Lanier with.

[jlauber]

The idiot Jlauber wrote this just a few days ago...



So Jlauber basically thinks that;

1. Hakeem was an average FT-shooter.
2. Hakeem was a nowhere great rebounder
3. Hakeem was a black hole
4. Hakeem was a nowhere near great scorer
5. Hakeem was nowhere near a great FG% shooting center
6. Hakeem was nowhere near great on the defensive end..


One can only guess why Jlauber creates these topics a la Hakeem when he basically thinks that the guy is garbage..:facepalm

ALL TRUE...

1. Hakeem shot .712 from the line in his career. The NBA average in that span was about .755.

2. Hakeem won TWO rebounding titles in his 18 seasons. His HIGH was 14.0 rpg. His career average was 11.1 rpg. He was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE, in his 96-97 season, by a 13.5 rpg to 9.2 rpg margin.

In his post-season play, he was outrebounded by not only Ewing, in the 93-94 Finals, by a 12.4 to 9.1 rpg margin, (and outrebounded 5-1-1 in that seven game series), he was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE (Otis Thorpe averaged 11.3 rpg in that series.) And a young Shaq outrebounded him in the '95 Finals, 12.5 to 11.5 rpg. Then, a couple of years later, Shaq outrebounded Hakeem by a 10.3 rpg to 7.0 rpg margin in a four game series.

Sorry, but that is NOT the definition of a GREAT rebounder.

3. Hakeem averaged 2.5 apg in his career. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Yes, a BLACK HOLE.

4. Hakeem was nowhere near a great scorer. He NEVER won a scoring title (again, in 18 seasons.) His HIGH scoring season was at 27.8 ppg. There were CENTERS in his era averaging 29-30 ppg. Find Hakeem's best scoring season on the all-time list. His HIGHEST season ranks 125th all-time.

5. Hakeem NEVER even came CLOSE to winning a FG% title. Not even with MILES. His BEST season was at .538, and not coincidently, it came in a league that had the highest FG% in NBA history. Hell, the ENTIRE Lakers TEAM averaged .548 that season. That .538 doesn't even show up in the all-time Top-250 seasons (it ends at .548.)!

6. Hakeem was not among the all-time great defenders. He won two DPOY's. Just in his era alone, Mutombo won FOUR. Wallace won FOUR. Mourning won TWO. Rodman won TWO. My god, "cement shoes" Eaton won TWO.

Then, take a look at his BEST Defensive Win Share seasons...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

And even worse, his BEST Defensive Rating Seasons (which began AFTER Russell and Wilt retired.)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

His BEST season finally shows up at #62 on that list.

Of course, Hakeem also was the center who allowed a 38-42 year old Kareem to average 22 ppg on .610 in their 23 career H2H's, which included TEN STRAIGHT games in which Kareem AVERAGED 31.8 ppg on a STAGGERING .630 FG%. And yes, we KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those ten games (and in fact, in all 23 regular season H2H's.)

Or the Hakeem that was BADLY outshot by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals, by an ASTOUNDING .595 to .483 margin.

And, IF he guarded a 35-36 year old Gilmore...well, that Gilmore AVERAGED 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT games against Hakeem-led teams.


So, the FACTS point to Hakeem being a good, to even very good player, in several categories. But he was certainly not GREAT in ANY.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan > WIlt
Russell > WIlt
Magic > WIlt
Bird > Wilt
Kareem > Wilt
Shaq > Wilt
Kobe > Wilt
Duncan > Wilt
Hakeem > Wilt
Mikan > Wilt

[jlauber]

Jordan > WIlt
Russell > WIlt
Magic > WIlt
Bird > Wilt
Kareem > Wilt
Shaq > Wilt
Kobe > Wilt
Duncan > Wilt
Hakeem > Wilt
Mikan > Wilt

The Three Stooges > Dunce Bungalow

[DKLaker]

Most definitely agree! A Train was a beast and should have been in the HOF long ago. I'm glad he got in though. He had great longevity as well in terms of being an elite center. Gilmore, Bellamy, and Thurmond in particular seem to got really get their just due. They battled in eras were the center pool was deep. A prime A Train today would be the best center in the L in my opinion.

I agree!!!!! :applause: :cheers: :applause:

[Round Mound]

Gilmore is the Most Underrated Center Ever

He was Better than Many of the Supposed Top 10-15 Centers Ever: Walton, Belamy, Lanier, Thurmond, Unseld etc

Gilmore hardly missed shots had One of the Highest FG% for 17-20 PPG, was a Monster Rebounder and Shot Blocker.

Also one of the Strongest Players of All Time too

[Whoah10115]

jlauber, you just lost a lot of credibility with your last Hakeem thing.



Guy wins two rebounding titles and is probably one of the 5 best rebounders of his era NUMBERS wise (which you like), but he's not a great rebounder.



His career high is 3.6APG, which is terrific for a center, so he's a black hole. Because again, Wilt is by far the best passing center ever, as no one else has come close to his APG averages.




Whatever, Hakeem is a legit top 5 player of his era, so every single thing you said about him is stupid. And you bash him on nothing. In a league where the average FT% was .755...that was the overall average? So what was the average for a center? You didn't mention that. These threads don't do Wilt's game any justice. And you leave no room for retort or anything.




Seriously, that last post is almost infuriating. He was good to very good? No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do all the research you want. My research shows that Hakeem was the reason Houston has two titles. My research shows that Hakeem absolutely DESTROYED the Los Angeles Lakers who were CHAMPIONS of the NBA and in doing so he completely CRUSHED Kareem; the very same Kareem who at 38 absolutely DESTROYED a 23year old Olajuwon.




See, we can all do it. It's got nothing to do with anything.

[millwad]

ALL TRUE...

1. Hakeem shot .712 from the line in his career. The NBA average in that span was about .755.

2. Hakeem won TWO rebounding titles in his 18 seasons. His HIGH was 14.0 rpg. His career average was 11.1 rpg. He was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE, in his 96-97 season, by a 13.5 rpg to 9.2 rpg margin.

In his post-season play, he was outrebounded by not only Ewing, in the 93-94 Finals, by a 12.4 to 9.1 rpg margin, (and outrebounded 5-1-1 in that seven game series), he was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE (Otis Thorpe averaged 11.3 rpg in that series.) And a young Shaq outrebounded him in the '95 Finals, 12.5 to 11.5 rpg. Then, a couple of years later, Shaq outrebounded Hakeem by a 10.3 rpg to 7.0 rpg margin in a four game series.

Sorry, but that is NOT the definition of a GREAT rebounder.

3. Hakeem averaged 2.5 apg in his career. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Yes, a BLACK HOLE.

4. Hakeem was nowhere near a great scorer. He NEVER won a scoring title (again, in 18 seasons.) His HIGH scoring season was at 27.8 ppg. There were CENTERS in his era averaging 29-30 ppg. Find Hakeem's best scoring season on the all-time list. His HIGHEST season ranks 125th all-time.

5. Hakeem NEVER even came CLOSE to winning a FG% title. Not even with MILES. His BEST season was at .538, and not coincidently, it came in a league that had the highest FG% in NBA history. Hell, the ENTIRE Lakers TEAM averaged .548 that season. That .538 doesn't even show up in the all-time Top-250 seasons (it ends at .548.)!

6. Hakeem was not among the all-time great defenders. He won two DPOY's. Just in his era alone, Mutombo won FOUR. Wallace won FOUR. Mourning won TWO. Rodman won TWO. My god, "cement shoes" Eaton won TWO.

Then, take a look at his BEST Defensive Win Share seasons...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

And even worse, his BEST Defensive Rating Seasons (which began AFTER Russell and Wilt retired.)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_season.html

His BEST season finally shows up at #62 on that list.

Of course, Hakeem also was the center who allowed a 38-42 year old Kareem to average 22 ppg on .610 in their 23 career H2H's, which included TEN STRAIGHT games in which Kareem AVERAGED 31.8 ppg on a STAGGERING .630 FG%. And yes, we KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those ten games (and in fact, in all 23 regular season H2H's.)

Or the Hakeem that was BADLY outshot by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals, by an ASTOUNDING .595 to .483 margin.

And, IF he guarded a 35-36 year old Gilmore...well, that Gilmore AVERAGED 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT games against Hakeem-led teams.


So, the FACTS point to Hakeem being a good, to even very good player, in several categories. But he was certainly not GREAT in ANY.

:facepalm

[zizozain]

is it true that When Hakeem retired he was the only person to be in the top 10 in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks(No. 1)?

and he was 15-4 against MJ?

and Hakeem's Rockets were like 25-6 against the bulls?

[Kblaze8855]

The anti Hakeem post up there really is one of the worst ive ever seen. Hakeem isnt a great rebounder because he only led the NBA twice. As if...thats unimpressive? Isnt a great defender because he only won two DPOYs. He won the DPOY in a league of 300-400 people more than once. And thats something to use against him? And he was top 3 3 other times once finishing second by one vote that went Eatons way. Isnt a great scorer because his highest scoring season was 28 a game? Talking about his irrelevant ass defensive win shares? If you care about that shit you really have no negative point to make anyway...he was #1 in the league 4 years in a row...then 4th...then #2 3 years in a row. His career defensive win shares is 3rd all time(Russell is #1).

Acting like Hakeem isnt great by using numbers that clearly show he is?

That post was so bad I feel it had to be self parody.

[winwin]

post # 38 :facepalm

downright shame


jlauber .. I had respect for you

[Gotterdammerung]

Jlauber
You're now talking through your hat.

You have way too much basketball knowledge to troll like this:

Example: a teammate who rebounded 13.5 per game doesn't mean Hakeem was a weak rebounder. It only means his role changed at the end of his prime: be the go to scorer while Barkley rebound the ball.

At tha point Barkley no longer had the quickness or stamina or vertical leap of his heyday, but he still had the ability/wiles to rebound. Hakeem at that point had polished his offensive game sharp enough to score outside of he paint instead of mixing it up.

That kind of contextual knowledge is blatantly absent from your recent posts and I have to call u out on this.

Either you're pretending to be an ignorant stat heavy troll in order to denigrate one of the greatest centers of all time or you're going senile in your dotage.
:kobe:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't know if you agree but I still feel that the '95 team had some huge gaps. Kenny got abused through out those 2 years in the playoffs, Elie really wasn't starting material even though he was a hustler and a dedicated defender and he made a career of feeds from Hakeem. Then we have Horry who took Otis place and they didn't have Herrera to back Horry up etc..

I agree as I stated in my previous post.


The bench was garbage as well, I find it amazing how Hakeem lead that team without having any kind of decent big man to back him up. They had the corpse Jones backing him up late in the season and in the playoffs..

Agreed, they were only good for players 1-6, no real serviceable rotation players after that.


Spot on, although I must say that Elie's stats wouldn't look anywhere close to what he put up in the finals without the feeds from Hakeem and the attention he got.

True, though it's very unusual for a role player to capitalize on opportunities to that extent and have those kind of numbers.


Cassell was obviously skilled and better than Smith by that time and he deserves some more recognition.

Yeah, he was coming into his own. Always liked his game.


And yeah, Horry played great and the Houston-version of him gets really underrated by fans today. He was a key player for that team and just by looking at him back then you could easily believe that he was going to have a much more successful career individually.

That's because most here probably remember him from LA and San Antonio.


Reed/Gilmore, Cowens/Lanier, Unseld/Reed

Speaking of Reed, he had a nice rivalry going with Kareem apparently before the injuries. Reed played him tough despite a 6-7 inch height difference, and to add to it, Kareem was obviously from NY and they had the '70 playoff series. How well Reed fared against Kareem in the full match up from the '70-'71 season that's available impressed me.


Debusshere/Gus Johnson all intertwined, have no parallels today, and seem more like a declarations of war. Rarely do you see guys go down for the grit and grind like these guys did.

That was a hell of a rivalry as well according to Red Holzman's book. They'd apparently fight like hell against each other whether they were injured or not(as Gus often was).

Dave was said to be one of the great defensive players of the era. Debusschere was the final piece to form those great Knick teams. They traded the talented, but lazy Walt Bellamy for Debusschere and took off, immediately winning their first 8 games with him and 14 of their first 15.

They were just 18-17 before the trade, but finished 36-11 with Debusschere in '69, and despite losing to Boston in the EDF, we all know what they did after.

The team certainly had some impressive names, but their success didn't rely as heavily on individual talented. I'd have loved to have been around to appreciate those teams.


Tyson Chandler wouldn't mind but the game has moved away from that.

I love how tough he's played Dwight. Last year, it felt hopeless going up against Dwight with Amare at center.



1. Hakeem shot .712 from the line in his career. The NBA average in that span was about .755.

And as others have said, look at what other centers shot. It also got a lot better as his career went on. He was a poor FT shooter his first 2 seasons, but he got up to 77% in '91 and '92, 78% in '93, 76% in '95 and 79% in '97.


2. Hakeem won TWO rebounding titles in his 18 seasons. His HIGH was 14.0 rpg. His career average was 11.1 rpg. He was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE, in his 96-97 season, by a 13.5 rpg to 9.2 rpg margin.

14 rpg is excellent for his era as evidenced by the fact that it led the league and that was while being so active defensively. 11.1 is a very good career average for his era, especially since it includes his decline years.


In his post-season play, he was outrebounded by not only Ewing, in the 93-94 Finals, by a 12.4 to 9.1 rpg margin, (and outrebounded 5-1-1 in that seven game series), he was even outrebounded by a TEAMMATE (Otis Thorpe averaged 11.3 rpg in that series.)

Does getting outrebounded in a series where he badly outplayed a hall of fame center and was by far the best player in the series a negative?.


And a young Shaq outrebounded him in the '95 Finals, 12.5 to 11.5 rpg.

Shaq averaged more rpg for the season than Hakeem anyway, so what's the significance? And that's kind of deceptive anyway. Shaq outrebounded Hakeem by 10 in game 1, and 1 in game 2, but Hakeem outrebounded Shaq by 4 in game 3 and 3 in game 4.


Then, a couple of years later, Shaq outrebounded Hakeem by a 10.3 rpg to 7.0 rpg margin in a four game series.

Hakeem was 36....and Shaq was 27.... Hakeem did have a good season that year, but who would expect 36 year old Hakeem(who was very old by basketball standards) to outrebound prime Shaq.


3. Hakeem averaged 2.5 apg in his career. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Yes, a BLACK HOLE.

3.6 apg is excellent for a center, and check out the playoff numbers. 4.8 in the '93 playoffs, 4.3 in the '94 playoffs, 4.5 apg in the '95 playoffs and 3.9 in the '96 playoffs.

Plus, assists hardly sum up a player's passing. Everyone who watched prime Hakeem knows that he was a very good passer, and it was a key to Houston's offense.


4. Hakeem was nowhere near a great scorer. He NEVER won a scoring title (again, in 18 seasons.) His HIGH scoring season was at 27.8 ppg. There were CENTERS in his era averaging 29-30 ppg. Find Hakeem's best scoring season on the all-time list. His HIGHEST season ranks 125th all-time.

You'll never hear someone who watched Hakeem say he wasn't a great scorer. I'll tell you why he was a great scorer. Had the essential thing that a great scorer needs, which is a reliable go to move, in Dream's case, it was his baseline fadeaway. And because of that move, he could also spin baseline for a lay up if the defender was expecting the fadeaway, shoot the fadeaway quickly before the defender could do anything, or if he was played well, he could give the dream shake to set it up. Plus, he could go to the middle for a jump hook, and he had counters for that with the up and under or spin. Plus, he could face up as well as any center I've seen, and take his man off the dribble, or shoot off the dribble.


5. Hakeem NEVER even came CLOSE to winning a FG% title. Not even with MILES. His BEST season was at .538, and not coincidently, it came in a league that had the highest FG% in NBA history. Hell, the ENTIRE Lakers TEAM averaged .548 that season. That .538 doesn't even show up in the all-time Top-250 seasons (it ends at .548.)!

He shot a good amount of jumpers and fadeaways. Players like him usually don't lead the league in FG%.


6. Hakeem was not among the all-time great defenders. He won two DPOY's. Just in his era alone, Mutombo won FOUR. Wallace won FOUR. Mourning won TWO. Rodman won TWO. My god, "cement shoes" Eaton won TWO.

And how many of those players were as good as Hakeem defensively? None. How many players have you seen close to 7 feet who could step out on screen/rolls and recover as quickly to help in the paint as Hakeem? How many have you seen with his timing blocking shots, or his quick hands?

You know that awards are subjective. Duncan has zero DPOY, KG, has one, Ewing has none qne Robinson has just one.

Look at how Hakeem anchored defenses his first 10 years with different coaches and teammates.

1985- top 4 defensive team(7th worst the year before without Hakeem)
1986- top 14 defensive team(lowered by the 14 games Hakeem missed when Houston's defensive rating was 111.3. Their overall rating was 107.6)
1987- Top 3 defensive team
1988- Top 4 defensive team
1989- Top 4 defensive team
1990- Best defensive team
1991- Top 2 defensive team
1992- Top 10 defensive team(Lowered by the 12 games without Hakeem when their defensive rating was 117.2. Their overall rating was 108)
1993- Top 3 defensive team
1994- Top 2 defensive team(Only the Knicks were better, and they were arguably the best defense ever.)


Then, take a look at his BEST Defensive Win Share seasons...

:roll:


And even worse, his BEST Defensive Rating Seasons (which began AFTER Russell and Wilt retired.)...

Even worse is that you use this stat.


Of course, Hakeem also was the center who allowed a 38-42 year old Kareem to average 22 ppg on .610 in their 23 career H2H's, which included TEN STRAIGHT games in which Kareem AVERAGED 31.8 ppg on a STAGGERING .630 FG%. And yes, we KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those ten games (and in fact, in all 23 regular season H2H's.)

Hakeem wasn't a great individual defender when he was young and undisciplined, plus Kareem was still averaging 23 ppg on 56% shooting in '86, and still a great scorer in '87.


Or the Hakeem that was BADLY outshot by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals, by an ASTOUNDING .595 to .483 margin.

Shaq usually shot a much higher percentage than Hakeem. Hakeem also outscored him by 5 ppg, and Shaq also averaged 5 turnovers in the series.

And while Shaq wasn't in his true prime yet, he was already great and nobody could really guard him, that doesn't say anything about Hakeem's defense.

How about Patrick Ewing averaging 19 ppg on 36% shooting in their finals series? Or Robinson averaging 24 ppg on 45% shooting in their WCF series?


So, the FACTS point to Hakeem being a good, to even very good player, in several categories. But he was certainly not GREAT in ANY.

He was pretty much great in EVERY category.

[millwad]

The only thing left is Jlauber's breakdown of the '95 finals..

Jlauber, please, write that nonsense again, haha.. Let everyone see why you think that Olajuwon got outplayed by Shaq. :roll:

And now when you're at it, can you please explain why you judge Hakeem's defense based on a couple of random regular season games in his first and 2nd year in the league vs Jabbar? And why do you always forget to tell about how Olajuwon outplayed Jabbar as a 2nd year pro in the playoffs.

Jlauber..:roll: :facepalm

And I promise you guys, Jlauber will not respond anymore in this thread, whenever he gets confronted about his nonsense he just leave those threads..

[-23-]

holy shit jlauber :biggums:

[Asukal]

hahaha gaylauber, all you see in basketball are stats. Get your old ass on the court and start learning the game before its too late. My gawd! :facepalm

[DKLaker]

Gilmore was great, no question about that, and he is very underrated.

Olajuwon was also great, I don't have to look at silly stats to know that, I SAW him play. Kobe went to him 2 years ago and asked him to teach him his moves....now if the greatest superstar of the NBA a SG is going to see a Center to learn his moves......then OBVIOUSLY he is truly great!!!!!
Why can't we just honor both great centers?:confusedshrug:

[millwad]

Jlauber - the self-proclaimed basketball historian.. :roll: :facepalm

[jlauber]

The anti Hakeem post up there really is one of the worst ive ever seen. Hakeem isnt a great rebounder because he only led the NBA twice. As if...thats unimpressive? Isnt a great defender because he only won two DPOYs. He won the DPOY in a league of 300-400 people more than once. And thats something to use against him? And he was top 3 3 other times once finishing second by one vote that went Eatons way. Isnt a great scorer because his highest scoring season was 28 a game? Talking about his irrelevant ass defensive win shares? If you care about that shit you really have no negative point to make anyway...he was #1 in the league 4 years in a row...then 4th...then #2 3 years in a row. His career defensive win shares is 3rd all time(Russell is #1).

Acting like Hakeem isnt great by using numbers that clearly show he is?

That post was so bad I feel it had to be self parody.

This coming from the man who claimed that Wilt would be a 23-12 man in the current NBA. Yep, THE greatest scorer of all-time AND by far, the greatest rebounder of all-time. The man who averaged a 40-25 in his first SEVEN seasons combined. And before anyone brings up the ridiculous "pace" arguments on Wilt's numbers, the CURRENT NBA is at about 85-90% of the scoring in the Wilt-era, and at 70-80% of the rebounding in Wilt's 14 seasons. So, those 50 ppg and 27 rpg seasons translate to 38-18 seasons in TODAY

[jlauber]

And you claim that Hakeem was a GREAT rebounder? With TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN seasons, and three of over 13 rpg, with a HIGH of 14.0 rpg?

Where do I begin?

First of all, TWO rebounding titles. Then, one 3rd, two 4th

[jlauber]

Those that claim that Hakeem was a GREAT defensive player are also deluding themselves. VERY GOOD, yes. GREAT? First of all, while some ignorant posters claim that the 90’s was the greatest era of big men in NBA history, it was also FILLED with SCRUBS. Keep in mind that there were 27 to 29 teams in the league in the decade of the 90’s. So, while there were centers like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq, as well as second tier guys like Mourning, Mutombo, and Divac, there were rosters LOADED with pure trash. Just pulling from the middle of that decade, in the 94-95 season…players like Benoit Benjamin, Shawn Bradley, George Muresan, Will Perdue, Hot Rod Williams, Andrew Lang, Marty Conlon, Oliver Miller, Felton Spencer, Lorenzo Williams, Sean Rooks, Joe Kleine, Earvin Johnson, Chris Dudley, Olden Polynice, Chris Gatling, and the 17-65 Clippers didn’t even have a starting center.

So, let’s examine some of the H2H’s. Of course, these H2H’s don’t always illustrate whether, or for how long, these players defended each other, BUT, they do represent the overall impact during those games.

How about Hakeem vs. Kevin Willis?

In their 19 H2H’s, Hakeem averaged 20.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, and shot .491. Willis, playing seven minutes less per game, averaged 13.9 ppg, 10.2 rpg, and shot .468. Willis’ career numbers? 12.1 ppg, 8.4 rpg, and .487.

Vlade Divac? Hakeem averaged 21.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, and shot .503. Divac was at 11.6 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot .491. In their post-season H2H’s, Hakeem was at 22.4 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and .512. Divac posted 11.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, and shot .530. Divac, over the course of his career, was at 11.8 ppg, 8.2 rpg, and .495.

Once again, Mutombo. In their H2H’s, Hakeem was at 22.6 ppg, 10.6 rpg, and shot .490. Mutombo was at 11.0 ppg, 11.4 rpg, and shot .521. Over the course of his career, Mutombo’s numbers were 9.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, and .518.

Again, Mourning. In their H2H’s, Hakeem averaged 16.7 ppg, 8.9 rpg, and shot .483. Mourning, like Mutombo, outrebounded Hakeem in their career H2H’s. His numbers against Hakeem were 15.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and .485. His career numbers were 17.1 ppg, 8.5 rpg, and .527.

Smits? In their H2H’s, Hakeem averaged 23.1 ppg, 11.8 rpg, and shot .519. Smits, playing 15 mpg less per game in those H2H’s, posted 11.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, and shot .500. In his career, Smits averaged 14.8 ppg, 6.1 rpg, and shot .507.

Muresan? Playing 19.9 mpg against Hakeem in his H2H’s against him, he averaged 11.0 ppg and shot .649. His career numbers were 9.8 ppg and .573.

Then we get to the HOFers that Hakeem battled H2H.

No question that Hakeem got the best of Parish in the ’86 Finals. He outscored him, 24.7 ppg to 12.7 ppg; outrebounded him, 11.8 rpg to 6.8 rpg, and outshot him, ..479 to .418. BUT, in their regular season H2H’s, Parish averaged 13.4 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot .554, which also included a PRIME Parish with a 38 point game on 15-20 shooting against Hakeem. Parish’s career numbers were 14.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, and .537.

Ewing? Probably Hakeem’s most dominant performance against a HOF center. HOWEVER, as dominant as Hakeem was against Ewing, BOTH Robinson and Shaq were even moreso.

In their 28 H2H’s, Ewing averaged 18.1 ppg, 8.9 rpg, and shot .458. Hakeem was at 20.7 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and .503.

BUT, how about Robinson vs. Ewing? In 19 H2H’s, Ewing averaged 19.8 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and shot .434. Robinson was at 23.2 ppg, 9.3 rpg, and shot .506.

And Shaq against Ewing? Shaq just KILLED Patrick. Ewing was at 21.4 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and shot .444.
Meanwhile, Shaq pounded him with a 28.7 ppg, 12.0 rpg, .542 average.

Now, as I mentioned earlier, the ONLY games that the Hakeem-lovers will bring up against David Robinson, were those from the ’95 WCF’s. Yes, Hakeem killed Robinson in four of those games. BUT, how about the rest of their 42 career H2H’s? Amazingly, their numbers stack up as almost a complete draw. They both played 37.7 mpg in those 42 games, and across the board, their numbers were a mirror image. However, Hakeem did slightly outscore Robinson, by a 21.9 ppg to 19.6 margin. There were two other stats that the Hakeem fanboys won’t bring up, though. Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid .488 to .441 margin in those 42 games. AND, his Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem’s team’s, too.


Of course, we also had the OP.

Gilmore vs. Hakeem.

In their 19 H2H’s, a 22-25 year old Hakeem averaged 21.4 ppg on .513 shooting. A 35-38 year opld Gilmore was at 17.4 ppg on a STAGGERING .680 shooting (!) BUT, it gets even worse for Hakeem. In their TEN H2H games from the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, a 35-36 year old Gilmore outscored the 22-23 year old Hakeem by a 23.7 to 18.7 ppg margin. AND, he just MURDERED Hakeem from the field in those ten games, by a phenomenal margin of .677 to .493.

Here again, aside from Chamberlain H2H’s in his 66-67 season, and against his peers, I doubt you will find ANY center, in NBA HISTORY, who put up a TEN STRAIGHT GAME SPAN, and against ANY other center, of 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting (much less while outscoring them, 24-19 ppg and outshooting them by a .184 margin.)


Kareem? In their 23 career H2H’s, a 38 to 42 year old Kareem outscored Hakeem by a 22.6 ppg to 22.3 ppg margin. He also outshot Hakeem by a .610 to .512 margin in those games. BUT, in their first TEN STRAIGHT GAMES, Kareem averaged a mind-boggling 32.0 ppg and on, get this… .633 shooting. In those 10 games, were games of 40 (on 16-29 shooting), 43 (on 16-24 shooting), and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

I have challenged anyone here to find ANY other matchup between ANY centers, in which a center so thoroughly obliterated an opposing center over the course of TEN STRAIGHT H2H GAMES. Dickwad mentions that I “randomly selected” these games. These were their first ten straight H2H’s, and a 38-39 year old Kareem against a 22-23 Hakeem. If I would have wanted to “randomly select games” I would have pulled these seven…30 (on 13-17 shooting), 32 (on 14-22), 34 (on 14-20), 35 (on 17-26), 40 (on 16-29), 43 (on 16-24), and 46 (on 21-30.) In those SEVEN games, Kareem averaged 35.7 ppg and on .661 shooting!

Here again, that was an OLD Kareem, who could barely get off the floor to average 6 rpg. In the two seasons of 84-85 and 85-86 Kareem averaged that 32.0 ppg on .633 shooting against Hakeem. Against the rest of the NBA (which included Hakeem’s games)…22.8 ppg and on .581 shooting. Take out those TEN H2H games with Hakeem, and Kareem averaged 22.2 ppg on .576 shooting. So, Kareem, in those ten games, outscored Hakeem by nearly 10 ppg more than the rest of the NBA combined. And he shot .633 against Hakeem in those ten games, while shooting .576 against the rest of the NBA combined.

And the final HOFer that Hakeem faced…Shaq.

In their 20 regular season H2H’s, Hakeem averaged 18.4 ppg, 9.1 rpg, and shot .447. Meanwhile, Shaq just ABUSED Hakeem with a 22.1 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and on .544 shooting. And how in the hell does a GREAT defensive center allow a young opposing center to average 28 ppg and on an eye-popping .595 in a Finals?

And while there are those that somehow believe that a PRIME Hakeem outplayed a YOUNG Shaq in the ’95 Finals (more on that later), the Hakeem-fans quietly NEVER mention a 27 year old Shaq just SLAUGHTERING a 36 year old Hakeem in the ’99 playoffs.

In their overall post-season H2H’s, Hakeem averaged 23.0 ppg, 9.4 rpg, and shot .465. How about Shaq? 28.8 ppg, 11.4 rpg, and on .556 shooting. BTW, Shaq also outassisted Hakeem in those eight post-season H2H’s by a 5.1 apg to 3.0 apg margin.


Of course, the Hakeem lovers dismiss the Defensive Ratings and Defensive Win Shares. Why? Because they CLEARLY show that Hakeem was nowhere NEAR among the GREATEST defenders of all-time. True, his CAREER Defensive Win Shares are only behind Russell and Kareem, and barely ahead of Wilt, BUT, Hakeem and Kareem played 18 and 20 seasons, while Wilt played in 14 (Russell in 13 BTW.) So, I consider Hakeem and Kareem to be the equivalent of Don Sutton in that regard. Sutton won over 300 games, but he only had ONE 20 win season (and that was 21.) Sutton was nowhere near the pitcher than guys like Marichal, Gibson, and Koufax were. Same with Hakeem.

Furthermore, ShaqAttack uses DRtg as an example of Hakeem’s “great” defense. Take a look at the 90’s. The Knicks and Spurs (Ewing and Robinson) were more dominant in that regard. Hakeem missed half the 97-98 season, and the Rockets dropped from 9th to 25th. How about the Spurs with Robinson missing 76 games in the 96-97 season? They went from the 5th best DRtg in ’95-96, to LAST place (29th) in 96-97!


Once again, MY take…Hakeem was a very good scorer, a very good rebounder, and a very good defensive player. However, he was NOT GREAT in ANY of them.

[jlauber]

As for PASSING, FG% EFFICIENCY, and FT SHOOTING. This is truly laughable.

Hakeem averaged 2.5 apg in his CAREER. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. I couldn

[Deuce Bigalow]

[QUOTE=jlauber]And you claim that Hakeem was a GREAT rebounder? With TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN seasons, and three of over 13 rpg, with a HIGH of 14.0 rpg?

Where do I begin?

First of all, TWO rebounding titles. Then, one 3rd, two 4th

[Deuce Bigalow]

omg jlauber jacking off to Wilt's stats :facepalm
Does that moron not know that era he played in was inferior and much faster in pace?
:banghead:

[Whoah10115]

jlauber, seriously, you lost for life. Period. You're stats obsessed and you sound ****ing stupid. I blocked you, after that, and I unblocked you to read what you said. But you have no respect for anyone else and you've sparked way too much Wilt hate thru this absolute garbage. You're right. You have a different definition of great. By your reasoning, only 3 players in the history of basketball were great. Being the best twice isn't great. So how many are really great?




It's remarkable and good enough to get this thread closed, which I imagine will happen. And don't respond, as I can't read what you have to say, for fear of the truth overpowering me.

[Deuce Bigalow]

[QUOTE=jlauber]As for PASSING, FG% EFFICIENCY, and FT SHOOTING. This is truly laughable.

Hakeem averaged 2.5 apg in his CAREER. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. I couldn

[jlauber]

jlauber, seriously, you lost for life. Period. You're stats obsessed and you sound ****ing stupid. I blocked you, after that, and I unblocked you to read what you said. But you have no respect for anyone else and you've sparked way too much Wilt hate thru this absolute garbage. You're right. You have a different definition of great. By your reasoning, only 3 players in the history of basketball were great. Being the best twice isn't great. So how many are really great?




It's remarkable and good enough to get this thread closed, which I imagine will happen. And don't respond, as I can't read what you have to say, for fear of the truth overpowering me.

I don't recall Hakeem being the best TWICE in his career. He won ONE MVP in EIGHTEEN seasons. And that came in a year in which Jordan took off.

Hakeem came in SECOND, ONE time. He came in FOURTH, TWICE.

That's IT. The man was considered a Top-FOUR player in HIS era, in FOUR seasons. He wasn't even in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

A great player, yes. Why? Because he was VERY GOOD at scoring, rebounding, and defense. BUT, he was NOT GREAT at any.

The revisionist history on this forum is RIDICULOUS.

BTW, I rank Hakeem at #11 all-time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I don't recall Hakeem being the best TWICE in his career. He won ONE MVP in EIGHTEEN seasons. And that came in a year in which Jordan took off.

Hakeem came in SECOND, ONE time. He came in FOURTH, TWICE.

That's IT. The man was considered a Top-FOUR player in HIS era, in FOUR seasons. He wasn't even in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

A great player, yes. Why? Because he was VERY GOOD at scoring, rebounding, and defense. BUT, he was NOT GREAT at any.

The revisionist history on this forum is RIDICULOUS.

BTW, I rank Hakeem at #11 all-time.
http://www.derrickrosemvp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/DerrickRoseMVP.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg

MVPs. A great way to rank players.

[jlauber]

omg jlauber jacking off to Wilt's stats :facepalm
Does that moron not know that era he played in was inferior and much faster in pace?
:banghead:

Obviously, you were incapable of reading ANY of my posts. True, I mentioned Wilt. BUT, I also mentioned players like Oscar, West, Kareem, McAdoo, Gervin, Moses, MJ, Dantley, Dominque, Kobe, Gilmore, Rodman, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Garnett, Barkley, Wallace, and Dwight.

[ShaqAttack3234]

JLauber, that post made me vomit. Seriously, it's an insult to anyone who knows basketball and watched Hakeem.

You should stop stating your opinion of what Wilt's stats translate to as fact, in reality it's only your method, and imo, it's not a very good one.

Your Hakeem posts are embarrassing.

You need to lay off the stats, it's gotten scary with you. Maybe they have rehab for that, I don't know, but you're making this board unreadable when you literally don't make any "points" that aren't stats.

Not only is you blindly comparing stats across dramatically differents with great differences in pace(I won't even get into the obvious progression in skills and defensive schemes), as well as the NBA/ABA merger(notice how McAdoo was a consistent 26-27 ppg scorer right after the merger, but nothing more?)

You completely ignore everything that can't be measured on a stat sheet, and the way you interpret those numbers is biased and downright laughable.

Comparing across eras is bad enough, but you also completely ignore the impact the offensive system has on stats.


I don't recall Hakeem being the best TWICE in his career. He won ONE MVP in EIGHTEEN seasons. And that came in a year in which Jordan took off.

Hakeem was CLEARLY the best player in the league in '94 and '95.

Not only that 2nd best in both '93 and '96.

He was also a top 5 player in the league EVERY year from '86-'96 or '97, except for perhaps '91 due to the injuries.


Hakeem came in SECOND, ONE time. He came in FOURTH, TWICE.

:oldlol: so MVP=best players? Not only is that a subjective award voted on by the media who base their picks heavily on nice stories, but it doesn't even include the playoffs.

I should've known, though with your simple view of the game, err, the stat sheet, I forgot, you don't actually view the game, you view basketball-reference.


That's IT. The man was considered a Top-FOUR player in HIS era, in FOUR seasons. He wasn't even in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

No, this is flat out WRONG.

He was NOT considered just a top 4 player in only 4 seasons. Stop looking at MVP voting just to make up for the fact that you DON'T WATCH BASKETBALL.

Hakeem was regularly considered a top 5 player for a ****ing decade.


A great player, yes. Why? Because he was VERY GOOD at scoring, rebounding, and defense. BUT, he was NOT GREAT at any.

Say this to ANYONE associated with the NBA and they will not stop laughing at you for a decade. I guarantee it.


The revisionist history on this forum is RIDICULOUS.

Finally, an honest assessment of yourself. Good to see you're making at least a little progress.


BTW, I rank Hakeem at #11 all-time.

BTW, I laugh at your rankings.

[Big#50]

JLauber, that post made me vomit. Seriously, it's an insult to anyone who knows basketball and watched Hakeem.

You should stop stating your opinion of what Wilt's stats translate to as fact, in reality it's only your method, and imo, it's not a very good one.

Your Hakeem posts are embarrassing.

You need to lay off the stats, it's gotten scary with you. Maybe they have rehab for that, I don't know, but you're making this board unreadable when you literally don't make any "points" that aren't stats.

Not only is you blindly comparing stats across dramatically differents with great differences in pace(I won't even get into the obvious progression in skills and defensive schemes), as well as the NBA/ABA merger(notice how McAdoo was a consistent 26-27 ppg scorer right after the merger, but nothing more?)

You completely ignore everything that can't be measured on a stat sheet, and the way you interpret those numbers is biased and downright laughable.

Comparing across eras is bad enough, but you also completely ignore the impact the offensive system has on stats.



Hakeem was CLEARLY the best player in the league in '94 and '95.

Not only that 2nd best in both '93 and '96.

He was also a top 5 player in the league EVERY year from '86-'96 or '97, except for perhaps '91 due to the injuries.



:oldlol: so MVP=best players? Not only is that a subjective award voted on by the media who base their picks heavily on nice stories, but it doesn't even include the playoffs.

I should've known, though with your simple view of the game, err, the stat sheet, I forgot, you don't actually view the game, you view basketball-reference.



No, this is flat out WRONG.

He was NOT considered just a top 4 player in only 4 seasons. Stop looking at MVP voting just to make up for the fact that you DON'T WATCH BASKETBALL.

Hakeem was regularly considered a top 5 player for a ****ing decade.



Say this to ANYONE associated with the NBA and they will not stop laughing at you for a decade. I guarantee it.



Finally, an honest assessment of yourself. Good to see you're making at least a little progress.



BTW, I laugh at your rankings.
Hakeem wasn't the 2nd best player in the league in 96.

[Big#50]

Hakeem wouldnt be on anyones top 15 if MJ never retired.

[IceMan2]

Hakeem > Wilt


Better scorer, better defender, equal passers, and Hakeem slightly better rebounder. Owned.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hakeem wouldnt be on anyones top 15 if MJ never retired.
MJ played in '95. Hakeem won a ring and finals mvp that year averaging 33/10/5 in the playoffs.

[Big#50]

MJ played in '95. Hakeem won a ring and finals mvp that year averaging 33/10/5 in the playoffs.
Again, I repeat, if MJ never retires, Hakeem wouldnt be on anyone's top 15. Funny thing about Hakeem is that 75% of posters here never saw him play. I have him at numero 8 or 9 in my all time list. The reason I say he wouldn't be on anyone's list, is because people only look at rings. But only if it benefits their argument.

[Gotterdammerung]

That's IT. The man was considered a Top-FOUR player in HIS era, in FOUR seasons. He wasn't even in the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

BTW, I rank Hakeem at #11 all-time.

:D

Try and reconcile these two claims, but I'm afraid asking for such synthetic thinking expects too much.

:oldlol:

[millwad]

JLauber, that post made me vomit. Seriously, it's an insult to anyone who knows basketball and watched Hakeem.

You should stop stating your opinion of what Wilt's stats translate to as fact, in reality it's only your method, and imo, it's not a very good one.

Your Hakeem posts are embarrassing.

You need to lay off the stats, it's gotten scary with you. Maybe they have rehab for that, I don't know, but you're making this board unreadable when you literally don't make any "points" that aren't stats.

Not only is you blindly comparing stats across dramatically differents with great differences in pace(I won't even get into the obvious progression in skills and defensive schemes), as well as the NBA/ABA merger(notice how McAdoo was a consistent 26-27 ppg scorer right after the merger, but nothing more?)

You completely ignore everything that can't be measured on a stat sheet, and the way you interpret those numbers is biased and downright laughable.

Comparing across eras is bad enough, but you also completely ignore the impact the offensive system has on stats.



Hakeem was CLEARLY the best player in the league in '94 and '95.

Not only that 2nd best in both '93 and '96.

He was also a top 5 player in the league EVERY year from '86-'96 or '97, except for perhaps '91 due to the injuries.



:oldlol: so MVP=best players? Not only is that a subjective award voted on by the media who base their picks heavily on nice stories, but it doesn't even include the playoffs.

I should've known, though with your simple view of the game, err, the stat sheet, I forgot, you don't actually view the game, you view basketball-reference.



No, this is flat out WRONG.

He was NOT considered just a top 4 player in only 4 seasons. Stop looking at MVP voting just to make up for the fact that you DON'T WATCH BASKETBALL.

Hakeem was regularly considered a top 5 player for a ****ing decade.



Say this to ANYONE associated with the NBA and they will not stop laughing at you for a decade. I guarantee it.



Finally, an honest assessment of yourself. Good to see you're making at least a little progress.



BTW, I laugh at your rankings.

THIS.

Jlauber is a retard, this is the same guy who wrote that Hakeem got outplayed in '95 by Shaq. Obviously Jlauber never watched the series and he only looked up the boxscore.

I asked him to break down the games and he freaking gave game 2 to Shaq, he didn't know that Hakeem beasted the Magic in the first half while Shaq really didn't do anything and that Shaq's points came when the game already was over.

When I told him about Shaq mostly scoring in the garbage time in that game he gave me a lame ass reply like "oh, so you can't score in the 2nd half?"... Haha..:facepalm

[millwad]

Again, I repeat, if MJ never retires, Hakeem wouldnt be on anyone's top 15. Funny thing about Hakeem is that 75% of posters here never saw him play. I have him at numero 8 or 9 in my all time list. The reason I say he wouldn't be on anyone's list, is because people only look at rings. But only if it benefits their argument.

Which is a garbage claim, Hakeem won the MVP once, DPOY twice, lead the league in rebounding twice, won two FMVPS, he leads the league in recorded blocks, 8th in steals, 11th in rebounds, 9th in scoring, he has the higest ppg average ever for any center in the playoffs etc..

You're a Drob fan judging bt your name and it's not odd that you're not a fan of Olajuwon but at least stay to the truth. The Bulls wouldn't have won against the Rockets if MJ would have played the whole season, they had no Grant or Rodman and they got toy'd by the same Magic team the Rockets swept in the finals. And lets not forget that Olajuwon and the Rockets always matched up great against the Bulls, in fact, Hakeem is the only superstar who didn't have a loosingrecord vs Jordan.

[jlauber]

:D

Try and reconcile these two claims, but I'm afraid asking for such synthetic thinking expects too much.

:oldlol:

Give me YOUR list of Top-11 and explain why. And give me your CRITERIA, as well.

There is NO criteria that exists that would place Hakeem higher than EIGHTH. NONE. Only OPINIONS.

[Big#50]

Which is a garbage claim, Hakeem won the MVP once, DPOY twice, lead the league in rebounding twice, won two FMVPS, he leads the league in recorded blocks, 8th in steals, 11th in rebounds, 9th in scoring, he has the higest ppg average ever for any center in the playoffs etc..

You're a Drob fan judging bt your name and it's not odd that you're not a fan of Olajuwon but at least stay to the truth. The Bulls wouldn't have won against the Rockets if MJ would have played the whole season, they had no Grant or Rodman and they got toy'd by the same Magic team the Rockets swept in the finals. And lets not forget that Olajuwon and the Rockets always matched up great against the Bulls, in fact, Hakeem is the only superstar who didn't have a loosingrecord vs Jordan.
Larry ****ing Bird. Who said I wasnt a fan of Hakeem? And I have him in my top ten. You are ****ing failing.

[Horatio33]

Let's talk stats. Not the fluid post moves of Hakeem, or his explosive athleticism when blocking shots. No, just a bunch of numbers. 87283745647293129022541537. Is that better Jlauber?

[Kblaze8855]

This guy is approaching delete on sight levels of idiocy. But i cant justify actually doing it because hes not actually doing anything but explaining what he thinks in reasonable fashion....he just has absurd conclusions supported by irrelevant facts. Is being so wrong it hurts cause for deletion when otherwise being reasonable? I....dont know that it is

[Owl]

There may be a cogent argument for Hakeem being overrated but if there is it is lost because of repetition, a lack of focus and and a lack of clarity. Not that stats are bad, but putting so many of them like this without explaining how each set pertains to your general point does you no favours.

Your rating of Olajuwon (11 all time) is uncontroversial so the strength of attack against him doesn't seem to make sense. As you can see yourself (in rating him so highly) he doesn't need to rank amongst the all-time elite in any one category, because he was very good at a lot (points, rebounds, blocks, steals, defense).

I would also add that as well as pace alterations, (and Wilt's uniqueness) there have been arguments that with the increase in talent and total roster spaces, increased specialisation has made it less likely that a player can be an elite rebounder and scorer (reb% has the likes of Fortson, Reggie Evans as the closest to Rodman). Not saying this is absolutely true, only that there is a debate to be had.

Of course focusing on regular season stats does somewhat undersell Olajuwon as he perhaps more than any other (significant) player elevated his game/played better in the playoffs. Now whether that's luck (and relatively small samples by comparison with regular seasons), or "clutchness" or whatever you think it does count for something.

Like I said before JLauber a more concise, focused (what exactly are you arguing?) argument might be better. Also forums aren't necessarily the best place for essay-like extended pieces.

[millwad]

Larry ****ing Bird. Who said I wasnt a fan of Hakeem? And I have him in my top ten. You are ****ing failing.

Larry what?

You have TD as a top 3 player, you fail.

[Gotterdammerung]

Give me YOUR list of Top-11 and explain why. And give me your CRITERIA, as well.

There is NO criteria that exists that would place Hakeem higher than EIGHTH. NONE. Only OPINIONS.

It is nice of you to respond to my posts, but it is too bad you missed the point of my post. :facepalm

Before I play along (which I've already done in the past, many times, notably in G.O.A.T.'s top 25 rankings, of which you did not participate at all) please do humor me and reconcile your incongruent statements first.

Why would YOU rank someone eleventh all-time who failed to rank higher than 4th (mvp i presume) 14 times in 18 years?
:biggums:
Remember, these are your two statements. Please explain this before you start asking me anything further. :no:

[millwad]

It is nice of you to respond to my posts, but it is too bad you missed the point of my post. :facepalm

Before I play along (which I've already done in the past, many times, notably in G.O.A.T.'s top 25 rankings, of which you did not participate at all) please do humor me and reconcile your incongruent statements first.

Why would YOU rank someone eleventh all-time who failed to rank higher than 4th (mvp i presume) 14 times in 18 years?
:biggums:
Remember, these are your two statements. Please explain this before you start asking me anything further. :no:

THIS...

[Gifted Mind]

Now while I agree jlauber is including a lot of insignificant information that has severely distorted his conclusions on Hakeem Olajuwon's abilities and impact, one can not be too disappointed with his final ranking of 11th for Hakeem. It is a little low, however still in the reasonable range. Ultimately, the all-time ranking is your final assessment of the player and jlauber still has given Hakeem a respectable ranking. So the backlash against him seems a little too harsh in this case.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/184/164/131443075153-Abandon_thread_Jim.gif

[Big#50]

Larry what?

You have TD as a top 3 player, you fail.
You mad almost everyone has him higher than Hakeem?

[millwad]

You mad almost everyone has him higher than Hakeem?

Not mad, just think it's retarded, Hakeem is both a better defender and offensive player. TD isn't better than Hakeem.

[oolalaa]

JLauber, that post made me vomit. Seriously, it's an insult to anyone who knows basketball and watched Hakeem.

You should stop stating your opinion of what Wilt's stats translate to as fact, in reality it's only your method, and imo, it's not a very good one.

Your Hakeem posts are embarrassing.

You need to lay off the stats, it's gotten scary with you. Maybe they have rehab for that, I don't know, but you're making this board unreadable when you literally don't make any "points" that aren't stats.

Not only is you blindly comparing stats across dramatically differents with great differences in pace(I won't even get into the obvious progression in skills and defensive schemes), as well as the NBA/ABA merger(notice how McAdoo was a consistent 26-27 ppg scorer right after the merger, but nothing more?)

You completely ignore everything that can't be measured on a stat sheet, and the way you interpret those numbers is biased and downright laughable.

Comparing across eras is bad enough, but you also completely ignore the impact the offensive system has on stats.



Hakeem was CLEARLY the best player in the league in '94 and '95.

Not only that 2nd best in both '93 and '96.

He was also a top 5 player in the league EVERY year from '86-'96 or '97, except for perhaps '91 due to the injuries.



:oldlol: so MVP=best players? Not only is that a subjective award voted on by the media who base their picks heavily on nice stories, but it doesn't even include the playoffs.

I should've known, though with your simple view of the game, err, the stat sheet, I forgot, you don't actually view the game, you view basketball-reference.



No, this is flat out WRONG.

He was NOT considered just a top 4 player in only 4 seasons. Stop looking at MVP voting just to make up for the fact that you DON'T WATCH BASKETBALL.

Hakeem was regularly considered a top 5 player for a ****ing decade.



Say this to ANYONE associated with the NBA and they will not stop laughing at you for a decade. I guarantee it.



Finally, an honest assessment of yourself. Good to see you're making at least a little progress.



BTW, I laugh at your rankings.

I have said these exact same things to him multiple times (including the reahab bit :oldlol: ). He will never listen - too old and stubborn I guess. jlauber might be the most stat obsessed NBA "fan" I've ever come across, being especially fixated on efficiency - he uses FG% (doesn't bother to use efg%) to completely discredit Bird, who he considers unworthy of even being compared to Magic.

Incidentally, if you bring up the fact that Bird is quite possibly the greatest game 7 performer in NBA history aswell as being one of the most 'clutch' players of all time, and the fact that Wilt lost a game 7 in 3 consecutive post seasons, he will bombard you with...

"It wasn't Wilts' fault that he lost in '68! His teammates didn't pass him the ball"
"It wasn't Wilt's fault that he lost in '69! His coach had an agenda against him"
"It wasn't Wilt's fault that he lost in '70! Jerry West got outplayed"

and...

"Bird had entire post-seasons of shooting .450, .444, .427, .422, and even .408!!!!!!!!"


His agendas are tiring. There is no balance or objectivity to his posts. If he posts about Wilt, it's always 100% positive. If he posts about Bird, it's always 100% negative. If he posts about Magic, it's always 100% positive. If he posts about Hakeem, it's always 100% negative.

You know, the funny thing is, I actually agree with his Hakeem ranking. I too think that he gets generally overrated these days, and when he says that Hakeem's career is based on just two post season runs, I nod. But the way he goes about it is just all wrong. His hypocrisy is bemusing.

[Pointguard]

Now while I agree jlauber is including a lot of insignificant information that has severely distorted his conclusions on Hakeem Olajuwon's abilities and impact, one can not be too disappointed with his final ranking of 11th for Hakeem. It is a little low, however still in the reasonable range. Ultimately, the all-time ranking is your final assessment of the player and jlauber still has given Hakeem a respectable ranking. So the backlash against him seems a little too harsh in this case.
Yeah, I agree. Hakeem is in the 10-13 cluster. 11 is a good spot for him. I have Hakeem at 10 but claim an ignorance of Oscar/West/Baylor. So Hakeem is a Lebron's tomorrow from being 11 in my book. Or maybe a good West or Big O book away from being 12.

Most people have a
Jordan/Wilt/Russell/Kareem/Magic - elite cluster
Magic/Bird/Duncan/Shaq - next to elite or elite cluster
Hakeem usually isn't in the above groupings and Kobe is knocking or arrived into this group. So Hakeem is right there at 10 - 12 in general estimates.

Most people guess on West/Big O but put them in with next cluster
Kobe/Hakeem/West/Big O/Moses cluster - Kobe has moved beyond Hakeem so he's starts at ten for me. Jlauder seen Big O, Moses and West play so 11 is spot on.

[Whoah10115]

I have to say, I really can't see much argument for either Shaq or Duncan above Hakeem. For what Shaq got away with, for the way they won, for the Kings series...no. He's not as good as Hakeem. And Duncan isn't either.




I'm not sure how I'd do rankings. Outside of there being a big 6 (and Hakeem is absolutely not near Larry Bird so let's not do that), I really don't know for sure. I said Kobe at #7, but I take that back. Not sure. Hakeem is probably top 10. Kobe is probably top 10. I probably don't give a shit.

[millwad]

I'm all cool with Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Bird. I don't care about legacy and how meaningful they were for the progress of the game but if I would I'd put Russell and Wilt ahead of Hakeem.

Duncan I just can't agree with, Hakeem is both a better offensive and defensive player.

And Hakeem was more than 2 years and 2 years only, if you only see im as a 2 year player you obviousy didn't see him play.

[millwad]

Most people guess on West/Big O but put them in with next cluster
Kobe/Hakeem/West/Big O/Moses cluster - Kobe has moved beyond Hakeem so he's starts at ten for me. Jlauder seen Big O, Moses and West play so 11 is spot on.

No, Jlauber didn't see Big O, Moses and West play, the guy didn't even see Wilt play. And Jlauber sure as hell didn't see Hakeem play, his posts in this thread alone speak for themself...

Proof?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Anyone who actually saw Wilt wouldn't change his mind 40+ years later after Wilt played.. :facepalm

[oolalaa]

Not mad, just think it's retarded, Hakeem is both a better defender and offensive player. TD isn't better than Hakeem.

At their respective peaks I would agree, but over their careers? You're retarded if you genuinely think it's retarded to rank Duncan over Hakeem.

'85 - '92 Hakeem was certainly not a much better offensive player than '98 - '07 Duncan. In fact, even if Hakeem did have an edge (which I would dispute), it was negligible. Hakeem was incredibly raw in the mid/late 80s, relying almost solely on his athleticism to make baskets (think Blake Griffin, only if Blake was 7 foot and could actually make short range jump shots).

Oh, and Duncan is/was a far better passer (especially out of double teams) than mid/late 80s and early 90s Hakeem (whose assist/turnover ratio from '85 to '92 was inexcusable). His passing/playmaking improved from '93 onwards (yes, better teammates helped) but not sufficiently enough to say that he's on a par with Duncan (whose 02/03 run was a clinic on how to pass out of double teams).


Defensively, Hakeem is an all time great (:facepalm at jlauber for saying Hakeem is only "very good" as a defender). I mean, 4 blocks and 2 steals a game in his prime!! Are you kidding me? That's insane.

Duncan was great defensively too. His communication was/is off the charts. He's like a traffic warden back there, making sure everyone is in the right place at the right time, calling for switches, rotations and just generally making sure everyone is doing their job. Hakeem wasn't as vocal but he didn't need to be. His athleticism was off the charts.

Ye, I would give an edge to Hakeem on defense, but it's pretty close. (but remember, Duncan was a better rebounder than Hakeem, if you want to include that as part of their defense)


But what about intangibles?

leadership? Duncan is one of the greatest leaders in NBA history. Hakeem, not so much, although he improved once he got decent teammates (Kinda like Kobe :lol ).

Competitiveness? Hakeem consistently bitched and whined about his shitty teammates in the late 80s/early 90s. I like that. It shows me he cared. I always got the impression he was highly competitive. But so was Duncan, in a more subdued, reserved manner.

Clutchness? Hard to say. Pretty even I guess. But just remember, Hakeem lost 4 straight 1st round series. He was certainly no Jordan, that's for sure. Duncan on the other hand never failed to lead his team past the 1st round of the playoffs for 10 straight years (how many players can say that?).


I don't like it when Timmy gets underrated! I don't goddammit! Apologise at once! :D

[millwad]

At their respective peaks I would agree, but over their careers? You're retarded if you genuinely think it's retarded to rank Duncan over Hakeem.


I'm all for discussing, this is what the site is for and "retarded" was obviously an exaggeration from my part. Sorry about that.



'85 - '92 Hakeem was certainly not a much better offensive player than '98 - '07 Duncan. In fact, even if Hakeem did have an edge (which I would dispute), it was negligible. Hakeem was incredibly raw in the mid/late 80s, relying almost solely on his athleticism to make baskets (think Blake Griffin, only if Blake was 7 foot and could actually make short range jump shots).


Wait, why did you only point out Hakeem's 8 first seasons and then compare it to TD's 10 first? Give Hakeem 2 more years and you have his '94 season in it.

As a scorer Hakeem was better than TD even in those years, you call Hakeem "incredibly raw" in the mid and late 80's which is a pure lie. Comparing Hakeem's offense in those years to Blake Griffin is stupid as well.. Come back to me when Blake leads his team in scoring while leading them all the way to the finals which Olajuwon did in '86 as a 2nd year pro and Hakeem did it against Magic, Kareem, Worthy in the WCF and against Parish, Walton, McHale and Bird in the finals.

Hakeem was a raw offensive player compared to his prime but he wasn't raw for being a center.



Oh, and Duncan is/was a far better passer (especially out of double teams) than mid/late 80s and early 90s Hakeem (whose assist/turnover ratio from '85 to '92 was inexcusable). His passing/playmaking improved from '93 onwards (yes, better teammates helped) but not sufficiently enough to say that he's on a par with Duncan (whose 02/03 run was a clinic on how to pass out of double teams).


If you want to watch a player pass out of double teams, then watch Hakeem's back to backs. And Duncan was not a far better passer than Hakeem, early in Hakeem's career, yes, but not overall.

The difference in the playoffs between the two of them is 0.2 assists per game while Hakeem was a way better scorer both in terms of points per game (highest PPG average in the playoffs for any center) and FG%.

And if you compare them just to the age of 35 Hakeem looks even more dominant next to TD and their assist average in the playoffs are like the same so no, TD wasn't a much better passer. That's BS.



Defensively, Hakeem is an all time great (:facepalm at jlauber for saying Hakeem is only "very good" as a defender). I mean, 4 blocks and 2 steals a game in his prime!! Are you kidding me? That's insane.

Duncan was great defensively too. His communication was/is off the charts. He's like a traffic warden back there, making sure everyone is in the right place at the right time, calling for switches, rotations and just generally making sure everyone is doing their job. Hakeem wasn't as vocal but he didn't need to be. His athleticism was off the charts.

Ye, I would give an edge to Hakeem on defense, but it's pretty close.


Not that close really, Duncan is underrated as a defender for sure but Hakeem was just a better defender.



But what about intangibles?

leadership? Duncan is one of the greatest leaders in NBA history. Hakeem, not so much, although he improved once he got decent teammates (Kinda like Kobe :lol ).


Hakeem was enough of a leader to lead 3 teams to the finals and he was enough of a leader to make his teammates play above their actual skillset during those back to backs.



Competitiveness? Hakeem consistently bitched and whined about his shitty teammates in the late 80s/early 90s. I like that. It shows me he cared. I always got the impression he was highly competitive. But so was Duncan, in a more subdued, reserved manner.


Competitiveness - Hakeem was just as competitive as any other player, he raised his game in the playoffs big time and if someone wants to see competiveness they can watch what Hakeem did to MVP Robinson.



Clutchness? Hard to say. Pretty even I guess. But just remember, Hakeem lost 4 straight 1st round series. He was certainly no Jordan, that's for sure. Duncan on the other hand never failed to lead his team past the 1st round of the playoffs for 10 straight years (how many players can say that?).


Hakeem was one of the most clutch big men of all-time. Yes, Hakeem lost 4 straight first round series but he only underperformed in one of those years. You can't use that against him at all;

In '88 he averaged; 37.5 points (57% shooting), 16.8 rebounds, 2.7 blocks and 1.8 assists

In '89 he averaged; 25.3 points (52% shooting), 13 rebounds, 3 assists and 2.7 blocks

In '91 he averaged; 22 points (58% shooting), 14.7 rebounds, 2 assists and 2.6 blocks.

Not Hakeem's fault that he had garbage next to him. I have a hard time seeing TD winning at all if he would have been placed in Hakeem's situation.



I don't like it when Timmy gets underrated! I don't goddammit! Apologise at once! :D

I didn't really underrate him. :ohwell:
Hakeem's just a better offensive and defensive player, sorry..

[Pointguard]

I'm all cool with Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Bird. I don't care about legacy and how meaningful they were for the progress of the game but if I would I'd put Russell and Wilt ahead of Hakeem.

Duncan I just can't agree with, Hakeem is both a better offensive and defensive player.

And Hakeem was more than 2 years and 2 years only, if you only see im as a 2 year player you obviousy didn't see him play.
Duncan is unique player that won unlike any other player with a bunch of mysterious names beside him. In fact he could win like Shaq and Kobe despite those guys having great teams around them. Duncan, Russell and Magic seemed to have a mysterious relationship with winning. Most other players win two or three times as the best player with a real good player next to them.

I did a thread about GOAT and GOAT player being different categories. Maybe a dozen of people cared to make a distinction but what you describe is a case of GOAT player getting confused with GOAT. Wilt really laid down the foundation of the sport, gave it its legs and was critical in launching it and gave it a mythical Paul Buyan aspect. So as far as great that's an intangible that's hard to match in terms of GOAT. If folks think that it was an easy thing to do, Kareem had a reverse affect and the league greatly suffered and this lead to Magic/Bird as league saviors. So in the case of GOAT, Wilt has much more claim to fame than his mythical scoring/rebounding and blocks. No way can Hakeem be in the same conversation as far as overall impact.

Wilt was also the first to play the game above the rim and to claim the low post with stylish moves and greatness in all of its dimensions. Wilt is still the prototype model of a center. And still the only one that was dominant in all of its aspects (Hakeem/Kareem were the only other ones to be very good in all of the dimensions but in a shorter span). And Wilt still the only one that had separation, continued separation from the league in that position. Wilt's impact on todays center is more than Hakeems who is a direct predecessor. Centers still try to play center in the Wilt model than Hakeems/Kareems/Shaq/Russell's largely because their games weren't as fundamental or text book as Wilt's was (many will argue that these players played to their unique strengths-my counter is Wilt had their strenths as well). Without numbers Wilt's impact is great and still very far reaching 55 years later.

With numbers he's in the mythical category.

[oolalaa]

Wait, why did you only point out Hakeem's 8 first seasons and then compare it to TD's 10 first?

I already mentioned that peak/prime Hakeem was better than any of Duncan years. But I am talking about their careers. I could change it to '98 - '05 if you'd like but it wouldn't make any difference.


As a scorer Hakeem was better than TD even in those years, you call Hakeem "incredibly raw" in the mid and late 80's which is a pure lie. Comparing Hakeem's offense in those years to Blake Griffin is stupid as well.. Come back to me when Blake leads his team in scoring while leading them all the way to the finals which Olajuwon did in '86 as a 2nd year pro

Like I said, just imagine if Griffin was 3 inches taller and had a consistent short/mid range jumper - that was Hakeem. Hakeem WAS raw for his first few years. He always had that turn around/step back J which was his reliable go to weapon but he improved as he went along - he developed an up and under move, a consistent jump hook and that crazy dream shake, and it wasn't until 92/93 that we saw the full arsenal.

And again you're underrating Timmy. He had an array of low post moves.


If you want to watch a player pass out of double teams, then watch Hakeem's back to backs. And Duncan was not a far better passer than Hakeem, early in Hakeem's career, yes, but not overall. The difference in the playoffs between the two of them is 0.2 assists per game while Hakeem was a way better scorer both in terms of points per game (highest PPG average in the playoffs for any center) and FG%.

Yes, I've seen the '94 & '95 finals (as well as the '94 Suns series and the '95 Robinson demolition). Sure, Hakeem turned into a very good passer.
Duncan is one of the greatest big men passers of all time, though. Perhaps you should rewatch some of the old Spurs games from the '02 and '03 playoffs. A CLINIC. Duncan was a better passer than Hakeem, in their peaks and for their careers. I personally don't think it's that close, but considering that passing/playmaking is so subjective, lets agree to disagree.

Oh, and AST% is a far more reliable indicator than APG.


Not that close really, Duncan is underrated as a defender for sure but Hakeem was just a better defender.

Duncan anchored a top 3 defence for 11 consecutive season between '98 and '08. You're damn right he was an underrated defender. But yeh, I conceded that Hakeem has an edge.


Hakeem was enough of a leader to lead 3 teams to the finals and he was enough of a leader to make his teammates play above their actual skillset during those back to backs.

You said it yourself, he was "enough of a leader".
Duncan is an inspirational leader. I'm not digging them up now, but there are numerous quotes from teammates, coaches and peers alike that laud his leadership and selflessness.


Not Hakeem's fault that he had garbage next to him. I have a hard time seeing TD winning at all if he would have been placed in Hakeem's situation.

This we will never know, but I have an equally hard time seeing Duncan not leading at least a couple of those late 80s Houston teams past the 1st round. That's what he does - lead mediocrity deep into the post season.

[millwad]

Duncan is unique player that won unlike any other player with a bunch of mysterious names beside him. In fact he could win like Shaq and Kobe despite those guys having great teams around them. Duncan, Russell and Magic seemed to have a mysterious relationship with winning. Most other players win two or three times as the best player with a real good player next to them.

Biggest load of crap I've ever read.
Mysterious names? Since when is Drob, Parker, Ginobili and Bowen mysterious names?

Drob played great basketball next to Duncan and busted his ass on defense when they faced Shaq. Parker is the same guy who even got one of them FMVPS, Ginobili is an all-star player who's going straight to the HOF, Bowen was one of the best defenders of his era.

I did a thread about GOAT and GOAT player being different categories. Maybe a dozen of people cared to make a distinction but what you describe is a case of GOAT player getting confused with GOAT. Wilt really laid down the foundation of the sport, gave it its legs and was critical in launching it and gave it a mythical Paul Buyan aspect. So as far as great that's an intangible that's hard to match in terms of GOAT. If folks think that it was an easy thing to do, Kareem had a reverse affect and the league greatly suffered and this lead to Magic/Bird as league saviors. So in the case of GOAT, Wilt has much more claim to fame than his mythical scoring/rebounding and blocks. No way can Hakeem be in the same conversation as far as overall impact.

Nonsense.



Wilt was also the first to play the game above the rim and to claim the low post with stylish moves and greatness in all of its dimensions. Wilt is still the prototype model of a center. And still the only one that was dominant in all of its aspects (Hakeem/Kareem were the only other ones to be very good in all of the dimensions but in a shorter span). And Wilt still the only one that had separation, continued separation from the league in that position. Wilt's impact on todays center is more than Hakeems who is a direct predecessor. Centers still try to play center in the Wilt model than Hakeems/Kareems/Shaq/Russell's largely because their games weren't as fundamental or text book as Wilt's was (many will argue that these players played to their unique strengths-my counter is Wilt had their strenths as well). Without numbers Wilt's impact is great and still very far reaching 55 years later.

With numbers he's in the mythical category.

This is so much bullsh*t, seriously.
I couldn't care less about separation if it doesn't lead to them rings, I'm not gonna make this a Wilt-thread because we're all tired of Jlauber's essays but..

Separation is nonsense if it doesn't lead to wins and rings, it's a fact that Wilt was a tied 2nd and fourth option when he won.

And haha, how can you even claim that Wilt's game is the model today's center try to follow? Wilt's game was nothing alike of any centers today and Wilt's game was not text book..:facepalm

Wilt's game is so far from today's game and so was the game overall back then.

I mean, this was just a load of crap..

[juju151111]

This guy just compared Blake Griffin to 80s Hakeem. Lmfaooo Why do people keep saying 80s Hakeem didn't have Post Moves. 80s Hakeem had post moves and was quick has hell.
Gve that guy a team 88-93 and he would be battleing for chips. Ha keen was putting up like crazy numbers his team was garbage

[oolalaa]

This guy just compared Blake Griffin to 80s Hakeem. Lmfaooo Why do people keep saying 80s Hakeem didn't have Post Moves. 80s Hakeem had post moves and was quick has hell.
Gve that guy a team 88-93 and he would be battleing for chips. Ha keen was putting up like crazy numbers his team was garbage

A 7 foot Blake Griffin who could actually make short/mid range jump shots you dumbass. Griffin relies mostly on athleticism, just like Hakeem did in the late 80s (although of course not to the same extent). I wasn't comparing their styles - Griffin is much more of a power player than Hakeem was.

[jlauber]

This guy is approaching delete on sight levels of idiocy. But i cant justify actually doing it because hes not actually doing anything but explaining what he thinks in reasonable fashion....he just has absurd conclusions supported by irrelevant facts. Is being so wrong it hurts cause for deletion when otherwise being reasonable? I....dont know that it is

Yes, idiocy. After all, Hakeem was voted TOP-FOUR in MVP balloting in FOUR of his EIGHTEEN seasons. And in the ONE year in which he won an MVP, he was fortunate that MJ took the season off. And, in EIGHT of his seasons, he wasn't even acknowledged as a TOP-TEN player.

The Hakeem that managed to carry FIVE teams to 50+ win seasons, with a high season of 58? And in six seasons he played on teams that were borderline .500 teams.

True, he won two rings. One, in that season in which MJ took off. BTW, the Jordan-less Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who would go on to lose a close game seven against the Rockets in the Finals. Does any RATIONAL fan honestly believe that MJ wouldn't have made the difference in that year's playoffs?

He won another ring the next year when HIS TEAMMATES stepped up and thoroughly outplayed SHAQ's, in a series in which Shaq averaged 28 ppg, on a staggering .595 shooting, while outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem (who managed to outscore Shaq by 4 ppg, while taking TEN more FGAs PER GAME.) Once again, Hakeem's TEAMMATES outshot Shaq's from the field by a .467 to .431 margin. They also outshot Shaq's TEAMMATES from the arc by a .402 to .347 margin. Hakeem's TEAMMATES also enjoyed a WHOPPING 97-47 advantage in FTAs, (and held a staggering 77-37 edge in FT's MADE.) Shaq's TEAMMATES also committed 15 more turnovers in that series.

And the "clutch" Hakeem was so great in the post-season, that he anchored EIGHT (of FIFTEEN) teams that were eliminated in the FIRST ROUND.

The Hakeem who won two rebounding titles, ZERO scoring titles, and ZERO FG% titles.

That's the resume of a Hakeem that some here have in their TOP-FIVE of all-time.

And those same posters rank him over WILT, as well. Despite the FACT that Chamberlain was a FAR greater SCORER, a FAR greater REBOUNDER, a MUCH more EFFICENT shooter, a BETTER DEFENDER, a MUCH better SHOT-BLOCKER, and a MUCH better PASSER...and who anchored GREAT teams (and faced FAR more HOF centers and GREATER teams in his career), and overall, was a greater WINNER.

But, yes, I am the idiot.

[stephanieg]

Hakeem was an elite low post player in 1986. Watch the series against LA and Boston.

He didn't peak in the mid-90s. That's silly. He was already on the downslope by then and was about to have a massive decline of his abilities. He just happened to be on a team that was decent enough to win (barely, given the miraculous nature of those runs).

Hakeem, like Jordan and other players of that generation, peaked in the mid to late '80s, but was still good enough to win later. If LeBron suddenly wins a bunch of titles in five or six years I hope people don't call that his peak...

[juju151111]

I already mentioned that peak/prime Hakeem was better than any of Duncan years. But I am talking about their careers. I could change it to '98 - '05 if you'd like but it wouldn't make any difference.



Like I said, just imagine if Griffin was 3 inches taller and had a consistent short/mid range jumper - that was Hakeem. Hakeem WAS raw for his first few years. He always had that turn around/step back J which was his reliable go to weapon but he improved as he went along - he developed an up and under move, a consistent jump hook and that crazy dream shake, and it wasn't until 92/93 that we saw the full arsenal.

And again you're underrating Timmy. He had an array of low post moves.



Yes, I've seen the '94 & '95 finals (as well as the '94 Suns series and the '95 Robinson demolition). Sure, Hakeem turned into a very good passer.
Duncan is one of the greatest big men passers of all time, though. Perhaps you should rewatch some of the old Spurs games from the '02 and '03 playoffs. A CLINIC. Duncan was a better passer than Hakeem, in their peaks and for their careers. I personally don't think it's that close, but considering that passing/playmaking is so subjective, lets agree to disagree.

Oh, and AST% is a far more reliable indicator than APG.



Duncan anchored a top 3 defence for 11 consecutive season between '98 and '08. You're damn right he was an underrated defender. But yeh, I conceded that Hakeem has an edge.



You said it yourself, he was "enough of a leader".
Duncan is an inspirational leader. I'm not digging them up now, but there are numerous quotes from teammates, coaches and peers alike that laud his leadership and selflessness.



This we will never know, but I have an equally hard time seeing Duncan not leading at least a couple of those late 80s Houston teams past the 1st round. That's what he does - lead mediocrity deep into the post season.
Stop talking nonesense. Hakeem had a array of Post Moves since his Rookie season. Go watch his 80s gms. Stop comparing him to a taller Blake griffin. You must lost ur mind.

[millwad]

I already mentioned that peak/prime Hakeem was better than any of Duncan years. But I am talking about their careers. I could change it to '98 - '05 if you'd like but it wouldn't make any difference.


The difference is that Hakeem had plenty of years wasted with horrible rosters, you can't say the same about TD.



Like I said, just imagine if Griffin was 3 inches taller and had a consistent short/mid range jumper - that was Hakeem. Hakeem WAS raw for his first few years. He always had that turn around/step back J which was his reliable go to weapon but he improved as he went along - he developed an up and under move, a consistent jump hook and that crazy dream shake, and it wasn't until 92/93 that we saw the full arsenal.



Again pure nonsense, first of all, Hakeem and Blake are about as tall as each other.

And no, Hakeem was raw compared to his prime but Hakeem wasn't raw for being a center in his early years in the league. We're talking about the same guy who lead his Rocket team to the finals in his 2nd pro season as the clear first option on offense. And 2nd year pro Olajuwon faced harder competition that year in the playoffs than what TD ever did.

Comparing young Akeem to Blake Griffin is just retarded, beyond stupid..



And again you're underrating Timmy. He had an array of low post moves.



No one said he doesn't, but he wasn't the scorer Hakeem was. Hakeem is leading all centers of all time in ppg average in the playoffs, TD doesn't come close to that. And in terms of being effective, Duncan has 7 seasons where he shot below 50% and some of those were in his prime, Hakeem has one season to the age of 35 (TD's age) where he shot below 50% and that was in '98 when he was 35 and missed half of the season due injuries.



Yes, I've seen the '94 & '95 finals (as well as the '94 Suns series and the '95 Robinson demolition). Sure, Hakeem turned into a very good passer.
Duncan is one of the greatest big men passers of all time, though. Perhaps you should rewatch some of the old Spurs games from the '02 and '03 playoffs. A CLINIC. Duncan was a better passer than Hakeem, in their peaks and for their careers. I personally don't think it's that close, but considering that passing/playmaking is so subjective, lets agree to disagree.



Again, this is like claiming that someone is a MUCH better scorer than someone else but when you watch the stats, they're almost the same. TD has a small edge but if you compare them to the age of 35 they're almost the same and especially in the playoffs so that is nonsense. So how can't it be close in terms of passing? I'm giving the edge to TD in passing (his only advantage vs Hakeem on offense and he got zero on defense) but to the age of 35 and in the playoffs TD's advantage is minimal.



Oh, and AST% is a far more reliable indicator than APG.


Sure it is.. :facepalm
So suddenly Deron Williams became a better passer than Magic and Jose Calderon is a better passer than Kidd.. :facepalm



Duncan anchored a top 3 defence for 11 consecutive season between '98 and '08. You're damn right he was an underrated defender. But yeh, I conceded that Hakeem has an edge.



Still he doesn't have a case compared to Hakeem, and yes, I've only said that TD is underrated as a defender but Hakeem still has a clear edge in terms of defense.

And lets act like David Robinson and Bruce Bowen didn't exist on the defensive end. :oldlol:



You said it yourself, he was "enough of a leader".
Duncan is an inspirational leader. I'm not digging them up now, but there are numerous quotes from teammates, coaches and peers alike that laud his leadership and selflessness.


Yeah, Duncan was giving deep speeches during his games, he was like Jesus out there..:facepalm



This we will never know, but I have an equally hard time seeing Duncan not leading at least a couple of those late 80s Houston teams past the 1st round. That's what he does - lead mediocrity deep into the post season.
[/QUOTE]


Haha, no way.
I just showed you how much Hakeem beasted during those late 80's seasons in the playoffs... Yeah, sure, TD is gonna top a series where Hakeem in the first round averaged 37.5 points, 16.8 rebounds, 1.8 assists and 2.6 blocks..:facepalm

The only year Hakeem 'til the age of 35 Hakeem underperformed in the first round of the playoffs was in '90 when the Rockets got swept by the Lakers who won 60+ games that season and were lead by Magic and Worthy.

Hakeem was both a better offensive and defensive player.

[juju151111]

A 7 foot Blake Griffin who could actually make short/mid range jump shots you dumbass. Griffin relies mostly on athleticism, just like Hakeem did in the late 80s (although of course not to the same extent).
Hey retard Hakeem was a great player in the post since the 80s. If he wasn't he would of got exposed in the playoffs. STF^ and watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGJl2MfyiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ff4LD9VkE
rookie Hakeem here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgrqJnX7VwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQe0fFakJr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzjjEja3d-Q

I can't fine the 86 finals highlights where Hakeem is scoring at will vs Parish and Mchale. Stay off the pipe

[millwad]

But, yes, I am the idiot.

Finally writing the truth.

[millwad]

A 7 foot Blake Griffin who could actually make short/mid range jump shots you dumbass. Griffin relies mostly on athleticism, just like Hakeem did in the late 80s (although of course not to the same extent). I wasn't comparing their styles - Griffin is much more of a power player than Hakeem was.

Griffin is listed as 6'10 and Hakeem was 6'10, stop writing a bunch of crap.

If someone was raw it's TD who barely could hit 50% of his shots.. In fact, TD made less than 50% of his shots in 7 of his 15 seasons while scoring less than Hakeem.

[juju151111]

Yes, idiocy. After all, Hakeem was voted TOP-FOUR in MVP balloting in FOUR of his EIGHTEEN seasons. And in the ONE year in which he won an MVP, he was fortunate that MJ took the season off. And, in EIGHT of his seasons, he wasn't even acknowledged as a TOP-TEN player.

The Hakeem that managed to carry FIVE teams to 50+ win seasons, with a high season of 58? And in six seasons he played on teams that were borderline .500 teams.

True, he won two rings. One, in that season in which MJ took off. BTW, the Jordan-less Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who would go on to lose a close game seven against the Rockets in the Finals. Does any RATIONAL fan honestly believe that MJ wouldn't have made the difference in that year's playoffs?

He won another ring the next year when HIS TEAMMATES stepped up and thoroughly outplayed SHAQ's, in a series in which Shaq averaged 28 ppg, on a staggering .595 shooting, while outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem (who managed to outscore Shaq by 4 ppg, while taking TEN more FGAs PER GAME.) Once again, Hakeem's TEAMMATES outshot Shaq's from the field by a .467 to .431 margin. They also outshot Shaq's TEAMMATES from the arc by a .402 to .347 margin. Hakeem's TEAMMATES also enjoyed a WHOPPING 97-47 advantage in FTAs, (and held a staggering 77-37 edge in FT's MADE.) Shaq's TEAMMATES also committed 15 more turnovers in that series.

And the "clutch" Hakeem was so great in the post-season, that he anchored EIGHT (of FIFTEEN) teams that were eliminated in the FIRST ROUND.

The Hakeem who won two rebounding titles, ZERO scoring titles, and ZERO FG% titles.

That's the resume of a Hakeem that some here have in their TOP-FIVE of all-time.

And those same posters rank him over WILT, as well. Despite the FACT that Chamberlain was a FAR greater SCORER, a FAR greater REBOUNDER, a MUCH more EFFICENT shooter, a BETTER DEFENDER, a MUCH better SHOT-BLOCKER, and a MUCH better PASSER...and who anchored GREAT teams (and faced FAR more HOF centers and GREATER teams in his career), and overall, was a greater WINNER.

But, yes, I am the idiot.
Yes u are a effing idiot

[juju151111]

Griffin is listed as 6'10 and Hakeem was 6'10, stop writing a bunch of crap.

If someone was raw it's TD who barely could hit 50% of his shots.. In fact, TD made less than 50% of his shots in 7 of his 15 seasons while scoring less than Hakeem.
Hakeem is better offensive player and teams were never has good has any spurs teams. Look at his 94 Roster. You kidding me?

[Whoah10115]

Come on people. Please stop responding because I see the posts and they're making me want to respond. Because all jlauber is doing is posting the stats and claiming Hakeem's teammates stepped up and that's the difference (95 series). In doing so he fails to have any understanding of the FACT that Hakeem elevated those players, whereas Shaq did not.




And I'm done with this thread. I keep looking back to see what everyone else is saying and I'm wasting my time. Peace out.

[Pointguard]

Biggest load of crap I've ever read.
Mysterious names? Since when is Drob, Parker, Ginobili and Bowen mysterious names?

:lol I love it when people say its crap. You never dispute my points, tho.

D Rob was scoring half as many points as he was when he was in his prime in the first championship run and well beyond a third of his prime in the second championship run. Please, post Gin, Bowen and Parker career numbers. Shaq had Kobe at this time. Kobe scored more than all three of those guys put together the first year of their group title run. That's insane! Kobe scored more than the three guys himself! And you are saying its crap. Bowen was a stellar defender but most championship teams have one outside of their star player anyway.


Drob played great basketball next to Duncan and busted his ass on defense when they faced Shaq. Parker is the same guy who even got one of them FMVPS, Ginobili is an all-star player who's going straight to the HOF, Bowen was one of the best defenders of his era.
Gin is a very good playoff performer but during the regular season he's below average. At 15ppg 4 rebounds 4 assist. 16/5/4 in the playoffs he definitely shouldn't get in the fame. Who are you using as a similar fixture that got in. That's very average. No where near HOF. Nobody having those numbers makes it these days. Tony Parker is never mentioned among the best point guards. When they were winning he was getting assist like Kevin Garnett.

The amazing thing about Tim Duncan teams is that they always win like crazy. They average like 57 wins a season since his arrival. You bring up wins as a big criteria later on in your argument. Duncan is related to winning.



I did a thread about GOAT and GOAT player being different categories. Maybe a dozen of people cared to make a distinction but what you describe is a case of GOAT player getting confused with GOAT. Wilt really laid down the foundation of the sport, gave it its legs and was critical in launching it and gave it a mythical Paul Buyan aspect. So as far as great that's an intangible that's hard to match in terms of GOAT. If folks think that it was an easy thing to do, Kareem had a reverse affect and the league greatly suffered and this lead to Magic/Bird as league saviors. So in the case of GOAT, Wilt has much more claim to fame than his mythical scoring/rebounding and blocks. No way can Hakeem be in the same conversation as far as overall impact.

Nonsense.

This is so much bullsh*t, seriously.
I couldn't care less about separation if it doesn't lead to them rings, I'm not gonna make this a Wilt-thread because we're all tired of Jlauber's essays but..

Wait a second! You seek out attention from Jlauder like a possessed person. You know you aren't fooling me. If it was real life you would called out for stalking. So don't act like you are tired of it. 90% of his threads you are there. Who do you think you are fooling?

Please, call out what you think is bull. I welcome it. But you just can't say something weak and think its going to fly.




Separation is nonsense if it doesn't lead to wins and rings, it's a fact that Wilt was a tied 2nd and fourth option when he won.
Separation is separation. Greatness stands alone, if you see a great mountain do you say wow, did that mountain beat the little mountain in height. Greatness is what it is in itself. You can assign other things to it but if you have to attach wins to it you are claiming you can only see it through a set of glasses. A nuclear plant has great power because of what it can do. If Jordan plays those years and wins it then Hakeem sucks? Grow up! If you need wins to legitamize your thoughts its only because you lack the ability to see greatness with your own eyes. Its immature.

Wilt didn't have to be the first option to be the best player on his teams. Your terms of impact, great and top player are narrow, kid.


And haha, how can you even claim that Wilt's game is the model today's center try to follow? Wilt's game was nothing alike of any centers today and Wilt's game was not text book..:facepalm
Wilt's game is so far from today's game and so was the game overall back then.
I mean, this was just a load of crap..
Do you even know what I'm talking about? Do you even know who's big man camp Hakeem went to? Do you know who his teacher based his classic post position/right option/pivot left option/pass out/repost model that he was using? Seriously tell me what you know? You think the fundamentals of the game changed? The basic post game suffers tremendously today. Please name me the player that multitasked prolifically like Wilt under the basket? Who plays the classic post game. The reason Kareem could do heavy duty work at 38 wasn't because he was doing the new thing - it was because he was doing the classic old style. The post game has regressed horribly. Big men playing big has regressed horribly. Walt Frazier would be a premier post player in today's game.

Do you even know how important Wilt was to the game? here and abroad? You have to factor in impact on the total game in your GOAT call. You know you didn't factor in impression on the next generations. The generation after Hakeem flat out moved away from the basket. Big men played in the tradition of Wilt for 40 years. So Wilt's influence was far reaching. I love Hakeem but in no way was he as influential, impactful or impressed on the game like Wilt. No way you can say that if you read the history of the game.

If you are going to go at what I say you really should have a counter point rather than saying nonsense, bull or this is crap. Stand up behind your word.

[millwad]

:lol I love it when people say its crap. You never dispute my points, tho.

I just did. :facepalm



D Rob was scoring half as many points as he was when he was in his prime in the first championship run and well beyond a third of his prime in the second championship run. Please, post Gin, Bowen and Parker career numbers. Shaq had Kobe at this time. Kobe scored more than all three of those guys put together the first year of their group title run. That's insane! Kobe scored more than the three guys himself! And you are saying its crap. Bowen was a stellar defender but most championship teams have one outside of their star player anyway.

It's funny, you Wilt lovers keep bringing up stats and that's why you fail so often. It's not about how many points you score, as a Wilt fan you should know that considering that he didn't win anything at all when he was averaging 40+ points, Wilt won as a tied 2nd and 4th option on offense.

Drob guarded Shaq most of the times when they faced the Lakers, not Duncan and Robinson did a great job. Parker is one of the best point guards of his era and even got himself a FMVP. Bowen is one of the best defenders of his era, 5 all-defense first team nominations talk for itself. Ginobili game speak for himself, if you want to be a clown and deny the impact Ginobili, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.




Gin is a very good playoff performer but during the regular season he's below average. At 15ppg 4 rebounds 4 assist. 16/5/4 in the playoffs he definitely shouldn't get in the fame. Who are you using as a similar fixture that got in. That's very average. No where near HOF. Nobody having those numbers makes it these days. Tony Parker is never mentioned among the best point guards. When they were winning he was getting assist like Kevin Garnett.


Calling Ginobili below average in the regular season shows you never saw the guy play, pure nonsense. The 2 time all-star Ginobili also stepped up in the playoffs, where it actually counts and he has a huge part in the Spurs winning it all. And Manu is a HOF:er if you watch his overall career, no doubt.

And Parker is easily among the best point guards of his era, have you even seen him play? I can't believe that you actually would write something like that. The 4 time all-star Parker who even got himself a FMVP and he's been a top 10 on the top 10 mvp list twice, stop making a fool of yourself.



The amazing thing about Tim Duncan teams is that they always win like crazy. They average like 57 wins a season since his arrival. You bring up wins as a big criteria later on in your argument. Duncan is related to winning.


Who cares about the regular season? Typical argument from Wilt fans..:facepalm

In all Duncan won 4 rings while not even being the FMVP in of those years and the competition he faced wasn't always the best but yes, the guy was a winner.



Wait a second! You seek out attention from Jlauder like a possessed person. You know you aren't fooling me. If it was real life you would called out for stalking. So don't act like you are tired of it. 90% of his threads you are there. Who do you think you are fooling?

You have your tongue in Jlauber's rectum 24/7 and still you misspell his name, haha.. Wow, would you call me out for stalking? My god, you're such a thug.

Of course I am, just look at the nonsense and revisionist history he puts up here, someone got to tell him straight.



Please, call out what you think is bull. I welcome it. But you just can't say something weak and think its going to fly.

Just did.



Separation is separation. Greatness stands alone, if you see a great mountain do you say wow, did that mountain beat the little mountain in height. Greatness is what it is in itself. You can assign other things to it but if you have to attach wins to it you are claiming you can only see it through a set of glasses. A nuclear plant has great power because of what it can do. If Jordan plays those years and wins it then Hakeem sucks? Grow up! If you need wins to legitamize your thoughts its only because you lack the ability to see greatness with your own eyes. Its immature.

Separation while not being able to win is not really important, Jordan had a huge separation in '87 when he scored like crazy but that doesn't mean that he was playing effective basketball or that he was at his best.

And no, if someone needs to grow up it's you, old ass man who got a crush on a dead basketball player who played 40 years ago and who you never saw play.



Wilt didn't have to be the first option to be the best player on his teams. Your terms of impact, great and top player are narrow, kid.

First you spam about separation and how amazing and great Wilt was and then when he didn't have the same separation and shrunk to the 4th option while winning he suddenly doesn't need separation. Stop being a hypocrite, you can't have it both ways, KID.



Do you even know what I'm talking about? Do you even know who's big man camp Hakeem went to? Do you know who his teacher based his classic post position/right option/pivot left option/pass out/repost model that he was using? Seriously tell me what you know? You think the fundamentals of the game changed? The basic post game suffers tremendously today. Please name me the player that multitasked prolifically like Wilt under the basket? Who plays the classic post game. The reason Kareem could do heavy duty work at 38 wasn't because he was doing the new thing - it was because he was doing the classic old style. The post game has regressed horribly. Big men playing big has regressed horribly. Walt Frazier would be a premier post player in today's game.

Hakeem could barely play before he came to Houston where Guy Lewis, his coach back at UH did one hell of a job to get Hakeem in pro basketball shape. That and a combo of Moses playing against Hakeem in his college career was the foundation he had coming to the NBA.

I never claimed that the fundamentals changed but it clearly progressed over time and then regressed to what we have now. Hakeem's era was the golden age of centers.



Do you even know how important Wilt was to the game? here and abroad? You have to factor in impact on the total game in your GOAT call. You know you didn't factor in impression on the next generations. The generation after Hakeem flat out moved away from the basket. Big men played in the tradition of Wilt for 40 years. So Wilt's influence was far reaching. I love Hakeem but in no way was he as influential, impactful or impressed on the game like Wilt. No way you can say that if you read the history of the game.


For fukk sake, I never said that Wilt wasn't important. And abroad? No one gives a damn about Wilt abroad. Oh, so it's Hakeem's fault that the big men moved away from the basket due rule changes.

If you're going to talk about influential, impact and impression then I guess Mikan should be ranked higher than Hakeem as well.. That's not even important to me, I judge based on skillset, winning and competition.



If you are going to go at what I say you really should have a counter point rather than saying nonsense, bull or this is crap. Stand up behind your word.

There you go, but I must say, some of your arguments really suck.

[Big#50]

I'm sure Tim can average 36/17/4 against the Dallas Mavericks in 88. Wasn't Tarpley their best big? Hakeem is not a better scored than TIM. Tim has a better shot. More post moves. He is stronger. Played better defenses. Took less shots. TIM is a way better passer as well. Not even close. TIM played in a much slower pace and Spurs always used a balanced attack. Millhouse is going overboard with the Hakeem love.

[Horatio33]

I'm sure Tim can average 36/17/4 against the Dallas Mavericks in 88. Wasn't Tarpley their best big? Hakeem is not a better scored than TIM. Tim has a better shot. More post moves. He is stronger. Played better defenses. Took less shots. TIM is a way better passer as well. Not even close. TIM played in a much slower pace and Spurs always used a balanced attack. Millhouse is going overboard with the Hakeem love.

Im a huge Duncan fan but he didn't have more post moves than Hakeem.

[millwad]

I'm sure Tim can average 36/17/4 against the Dallas Mavericks in 88. Wasn't Tarpley their best big? Hakeem is not a better scored than TIM. Tim has a better shot. More post moves. He is stronger. Played better defenses. Took less shots. TIM is a way better passer as well. Not even close. TIM played in a much slower pace and Spurs always used a balanced attack. Millhouse is going overboard with the Hakeem love.

Terrible post.

Duncan would never be able to average 37/17/4 against the Mavs in '88, he just doesn't have that in him. And lets act like Dallas had a bad team that year and lets not mention that they went all the way to the WCF where they faced that years Champs Lakers and lets not act like they lost in game 7... :facepalm

And is Tarpley supposed to be a bad player? He averaged 17 points and 12 rebounds in the '88 playoffs and Hakeem just destroyed him and the Mavs.

And it's just retarded that you claim that Duncan was a better scorer, he both scored less and did it on worse FG%. In fact, Duncan has shot below 50% in 7 seasons over his career which is pretty bad, honestly.

Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG% and compare them to the age of 35, Duncan's current age, it's not even close. And the true difference is in the playoffs, Hakeem has the highest points per game average for any center through-out history in the playoffs and Timmy doesn't come close to that. Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG%, don't be stupid.

And sure, Tim Duncan has better post moves, haha.. You're retarded.

And writing about a much slower pace is just bs, Hakeem just averaged 1.5 more shots per game and he rightfully did so considering that he shot with a higher FG%.

And no, Tim Duncan is not a WAY BETTER passer, to the age of 35 their assist per game average is basically identical in the playoffs and his edge in assists per game in the regular season to the age of 35 is small. He was not a way better passer.

And Duncan has no case when it comes to defense, Hakeem is a 2-time DPOY, 1 in recorded blocks and 8 in steals and Duncan didn't even get a DPOY to start with. He has no case against Hakeem when it comes to defense.

Duncan is the same guy who in his prime allowed a 22 year old Stoudemire to abuse him big time in the playoffs, 22 year old Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% shooting against Duncan.

Haha, and that is the guy that you're trying to put ahead defensively over Olajuwon.. :facepalm

Hakeem was both a better offensive and defensive player, case closed.

[juju151111]

Terrible post.

Duncan would never be able to average 37/17/4 against the Mavs in '88, he just doesn't have that in him. And lets act like Dallas had a bad team that year and lets not mention that they went all the way to the WCF where they faced that years Champs Lakers and lets not act like they lost in game 7... :facepalm

And is Tarpley supposed to be a bad player? He averaged 17 points and 12 rebounds in the '88 playoffs and Hakeem just destroyed him and the Mavs.

And it's just retarded that you claim that Duncan was a better scorer, he both scored less and did it on worse FG%. In fact, Duncan has shot below 50% in 7 seasons over his career which is pretty bad, honestly.

Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG% and compare them to the age of 35, Duncan's current age, it's not even close. And the true difference is in the playoffs, Hakeem has the highest points per game average for any center through-out history in the playoffs and Timmy doesn't come close to that. Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG%, don't be stupid.

And sure, Tim Duncan has better post moves, haha.. You're retarded.

And writing about a much slower pace is just bs, Hakeem just averaged 1.5 more shots per game and he rightfully did so considering that he shot with a higher FG%.

And no, Tim Duncan is not a WAY BETTER passer, to the age of 35 their assist per game average is basically identical in the playoffs and his edge in assists per game in the regular season to the age of 35 is small. He was not a way better passer.

And Duncan has no case when it comes to defense, Hakeem is a 2-time DPOY, 1 in recorded blocks and 8 in steals and Duncan didn't even get a DPOY to start with. He has no case against Hakeem when it comes to defense.

Duncan is the same guy who in his prime allowed a 22 year old Stoudemire to abuse him big time in the playoffs, 22 year old Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% shooting against Duncan.

Haha, and that is the guy that you're trying to put ahead defensively over Olajuwon.. :facepalm

Hakeem was both a better offensive and defensive player, case closed.
:cheers: The disrespect to the Dream is crazy. Blake griffin :wtf:

[Big#50]

Terrible post.

Duncan would never be able to average 37/17/4 against the Mavs in '88, he just doesn't have that in him. And lets act like Dallas had a bad team that year and lets not mention that they went all the way to the WCF where they faced that years Champs Lakers and lets not act like they lost in game 7... :facepalm

And is Tarpley supposed to be a bad player? He averaged 17 points and 12 rebounds in the '88 playoffs and Hakeem just destroyed him and the Mavs.

And it's just retarded that you claim that Duncan was a better scorer, he both scored less and did it on worse FG%. In fact, Duncan has shot below 50% in 7 seasons over his career which is pretty bad, honestly.

Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG% and compare them to the age of 35, Duncan's current age, it's not even close. And the true difference is in the playoffs, Hakeem has the highest points per game average for any center through-out history in the playoffs and Timmy doesn't come close to that. Hakeem both scored more and did it on better FG%, don't be stupid.

And sure, Tim Duncan has better post moves, haha.. You're retarded.

And writing about a much slower pace is just bs, Hakeem just averaged 1.5 more shots per game and he rightfully did so considering that he shot with a higher FG%.

And no, Tim Duncan is not a WAY BETTER passer, to the age of 35 their assist per game average is basically identical in the playoffs and his edge in assists per game in the regular season to the age of 35 is small. He was not a way better passer.

And Duncan has no case when it comes to defense, Hakeem is a 2-time DPOY, 1 in recorded blocks and 8 in steals and Duncan didn't even get a DPOY to start with. He has no case against Hakeem when it comes to defense.

Duncan is the same guy who in his prime allowed a 22 year old Stoudemire to abuse him big time in the playoffs, 22 year old Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% shooting against Duncan.

Haha, and that is the guy that you're trying to put ahead defensively over Olajuwon.. :facepalm

Hakeem was both a better offensive and defensive player, case closed.
The old Amare dominated Duncan post. Not even close to being true. Doubt you watched the series. Duncan is a better defender. And if Tim can average 32 points in a series where he needed to be a scorer, I'm sure ****ing Roy Tarpley wouldn't be able to stop him. LoL come on, don't bring up numbers from the 80's. Too many players shot amazing back then. Hakeem is an all time great defender and so is TIM. TIM should have two DPOY awards. Camby has a DPOY award, who gives a shit about the award now...I'm sure it meant more back then. Hakeem was in foul trouble a lot, and committed many stupid fouls. Block numbers were high as **** back then.centers were allowed more contact, were allowed to live in the paint, teams attacked the middle more.

[Kblaze8855]

Drugs aside Roy Tarpley was something like a beast....

I dont know exactly what is being argued here(dont feel like a long read). But Tarpley wasnt a pushover.

[Big#50]

Im a huge Duncan fan but he didn't have more post moves than Hakeem.
He did. Used his off hand way better. Always got better positioning.

[CavaliersFTW]

He did. Used his off hand way better. Always got better positioning.
McHale
Olajuwon

^---- bar none a class of their own in the post, greatest -most complex- 2 post players of all time.


I'm not saying Duncan isn't incredibly good in the post, he is fundamentally solid and brutally efficient but Olajuwon had counter move after counter move - he certainly had more moves in the post from what I've seen. If your a dedicated SAS fan I guess I would expect nothing less as to what your opinion would be lol - So let me make it clear there's no disrespect to Timmy from my end, his 4 rings and solid consistency speaks for themselves. I just think McHale and Olajuwon are the most mind boggling guys in the post I've ever seen.

[Kblaze8855]

Tim Duncan is perhaps my favorite non Bull since Bird...hes at least in the discussion. But he does not have more post moves than Hakeem.

Hakeem did a lot of things that may not really be...moves. Just quick stepthroughs and evasions of people in ways he couldnt just do in any situation. And he did a lot of shot fakes that were not post moves at all that people have started to call post moves anyway. So maybe a lot were not moves in that you could teach someone to repeat it as a standard couinter to this or that reaction to the defense...

But whatever you wanna call it....he scored in more ways. Duncan isnt a better shooter either. Especially if you want it off the dribble. Hakeem was facing up and putting the D on its heels with a hesitation and wetting 19 footers and making game winning turn around 20 footers in the corner before he was even the Hakeem hes famous for being in the mid 90s.

Duncan has always been a reliable set shooter but Hakeem was taking legit pull up jumpers like a guard at times or coming down trailing and having it dropped off for a foul line jumper. He was making baseline fadeaways from 16-18 feet on a regular enough basis to not make a big deal of it even in the early 90s.

Duncan from his spots might make his shot as often as Hakeem from his but Duncans spots were more limited and he didnt have the stop and pop jumper at nearly Hakeems level. Not to say Hakeem was some kinda all time great shooter....even for a bigman. But he did take his share of jumpers in situations Tim wouldnt.

Tim hitting big 3s now and then is impressive but he wasnt really just a shooter. He wont make a distant fadeaway, pullup, or even set shot outside his spots as often as Hakeem would.

[Whoah10115]

Other than McHale, no one has more or as many post moves as Hakeem. A big ole PERIOD there.




And I hope I didn't just read that Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem. The only big guy as good, is Tim's old teammate.

[Big#50]

Drugs aside Roy Tarpley was something like a beast....

I dont know exactly what is being argued here(dont feel like a long read). But Tarpley wasnt a pushover.
Roy was no pushover. He was no defensive beast. Donaldson was way slower than Hakeem. Strong player and good shot blocker, but I remember him being a damn stiff.

[Big#50]

Other than McHale, no one has more or as many post moves as Hakeem. A big ole PERIOD there.




And I hope I didn't just read that Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem. The only big guy as good, is Tim's old teammate.
Like Wilt said Hakeem's pump fakes don't mean shit.

[Kblaze8855]

There are a few people ive seen with as many moves as those 2 they just arent using them at the same rate.

A few guards even. Ive seen Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Payton, and Penny do almost everything ive seen Mchale and Hakeem do. But we never really look to guards for such things. I know ive seen Bird pull out one or two ive not seen anyone else do. Not to bring down Hakeem or Mchale in any way...it just came to mind.

[juju151111]

Like Wilt said Hakeem's pump fakes don't mean shit.
:coleman: Hakeem isn't just about pumpfakes. He had the whole arsenal. Tell Wilt Hakeem is a better Postseason performer

[millwad]

The old Amare dominated Duncan post. Not even close to being true. Doubt you watched the series. Duncan is a better defender. And if Tim can average 32 points in a series where he needed to be a scorer, I'm sure ****ing Roy Tarpley wouldn't be able to stop him. LoL come on, don't bring up numbers from the 80's. Too many players shot amazing back then. Hakeem is an all time great defender and so is TIM. TIM should have two DPOY awards. Camby has a DPOY award, who gives a shit about the award now...I'm sure it meant more back then. Hakeem was in foul trouble a lot, and committed many stupid fouls. Block numbers were high as **** back then.centers were allowed more contact, were allowed to live in the paint, teams attacked the middle more.

Again a sh1tty post.

I've watched the series and Duncan couldn't stop Amare for his life, the 22 year old Amare averaged freaking 37 points per game on 55% shooting. I'm not even going to debate who won that match-up but Duncan couldn't stop Amare and Amare beasted on Tim and the Spurs.

And dumbsh*t, it's funny, you only write "Duncan is a better defender" but you don't have any arguments at all which proves that you have no clue. Who did Duncan ever shut down big time?

I don't even have to mention games from the 80's, in '95's playoffs Hakeem beasted on offense in a way TD never did. TD's high scoring playoff season was in a season he only made 45% while Hakeem has the highest point per game average for any center while also shooting better FG% than TD.

Hakeem was in foul trouble early in his career, not later in his career so that is BS also. And regarding shotblocking, TD is not even close and don't write any BS about the era or contact because Hakeem was just alot better at blocking shots. I guess you're gonna come up with an excuse for Hakeem's high steal per game average as well and how Duncan actually was better at steals.. :facepalm

How many times did TD lead the league in blocks? :roll:

And again, TD wasn't the scorer Hakeem was, neither in terms of scoring and not in terms of FG%. That had nothing to do with the era or pace, even in the 90's Hakeem was doing stuff on the offensive end that Duncan never did.

It's funny, you have excuses for everything, haha, pathetic..
Hakeem was both better on offense and defense, not anything to debate. And if you're gonna come up with a reply, explain your arguments and don't just post bold statements... :facepalm

[millwad]

Like Wilt said Hakeem's pump fakes don't mean shit.

Say that to David Robinson... HAHA! :roll:

[Owl]

McHale
Olajuwon

^---- bar none a class of their own in the post, greatest -most complex- 2 post players of all time.


I'm not saying Duncan isn't incredibly good in the post, he is fundamentally solid and brutally efficient but Olajuwon had counter move after counter move - he certainly had more moves in the post from what I've seen. If your a dedicated SAS fan I guess I would expect nothing less as to what your opinion would be lol - So let me make it clear there's no disrespect to Timmy from my end, his 4 rings and solid consistency speaks for themselves. I just think McHale and Olajuwon are the most mind boggling guys in the post I've ever seen.
Not Dantley then?
Dantley shot .540 over his career. Hakeem never had a single season that good. And Dantley gave up 5+ inches (7 if you buy Hakeem's listing as 7ft). Hakeem may have had more moves or more complex ones but not better ones.

Duncan didn't have Olajuwons array of moves. But he did have fabulous footwork, better range and driving ability and comparable efficiency as a scorer (probably higher efficiency when accounting for FTs and era, but I'd imagine at a lower usage rate).

[juju151111]

Again a sh1tty post.

I've watched the series and Duncan couldn't stop Amare for his life, the 22 year old Amare averaged freaking 37 points per game on 55% shooting. I'm not even going to debate who won that match-up but Duncan couldn't stop Amare and Amare beasted on Tim and the Spurs.

And dumbsh*t, it's funny, you only write "Duncan is a better defender" but you don't have any arguments at all which proves that you have no clue. Who did Duncan ever shut down big time?

I don't even have to mention games from the 80's, in '95's playoffs Hakeem beasted on offense in a way TD never did. TD's high scoring playoff season was in a season he only made 45% while Hakeem has the highest point per game average for any center while also shooting better FG% than TD.

Hakeem was in foul trouble early in his career, not later in his career so that is BS also. And regarding shotblocking, TD is not even close and don't write any BS about the era or contact because Hakeem was just alot better at blocking shots. I guess you're gonna come up with an excuse for Hakeem's high steal per game average as well and how Duncan actually was better at steals.. :facepalm

How many times did TD lead the league in blocks? :roll:

And again, TD wasn't the scorer Hakeem was, neither in terms of scoring and not in terms of FG%. That had nothing to do with the era or pace, even in the 90's Hakeem was doing stuff on the offensive end that Duncan never did.

It's funny, you have excuses for everything, haha, pathetic..
Hakeem was both better on offense and defense, not anything to debate. And if you're gonna come up with a reply, explain your arguments and don't just post bold statements... :facepalm
Why u arguing with this Fanboy? He thinks Duncan had more post moves lmfao This is just a sample of Hakeem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7tPZ-KljR0

[Big#50]

Say that to David Robinson... HAHA! :roll:
Like Wilt said "those pump fakes dont mean shit." Duncan doesn't fall for fakes like Hakeem and DROB did.

[juju151111]

Like Wilt said "those pump fakes dont mean shit." Duncan doesn't fall for fakes like Hakeem and DROB did.
Yea ok. Lol at you trying to pretend Drob was a bad defender.Een when he doesn't fall for fakes Hakeem still had a counter moves. Amare destroyed Duncan

[Big#50]

Yea ok. Lol at you trying to pretend Drob was a bad defender.Een when he doesn't fall for fakes Hakeem still had a counter moves. Amare destroyed Duncan
Sure he did. Amare who got most of his points from the Nash PNR. Because he scored every point on TIM. LOL Who said DROB was a bad defender? But in the Houston series, he would have jumped if a mouse ran in front of him. He was shook. And had that deer caught in the headlights look all series long.

[Kblaze8855]

Amare blew by tim quite a bit especially that last game where he had like 45 and like 5 dunks in the 4th but i dont remember amare outplaying tim exactly. Tim always feasted on the suns. He was doing numbers himself

[jlip]

News flash:

This just in...Sometimes dominant scorers actually have good games against even the best defenders.

[Big#50]

Amare blew by tim quite a bit especially that last game where he had like 45 and like 5 dunks in the 4th but i dont remember amare outplaying tim exactly. Tim always feasted on the suns. He was doing numbers himself
No way 2005 TIM could have stayed in front of Amare. Dude had a sick first step. No way anyone could have stayed in front of Amare before injuries. He was a better Griffin.

[juju151111]

Sure he did. Amare who got most of his points from the Nash PNR. Because he scored every point on TIM. LOL Who said DROB was a bad defender? But in the Houston series, he would have jumped if a mouse ran in front of him. He was shook. And had that deer caught in the headlights look all series long.
Yep that was caused by Hakeem moving like a SG in the Post. Duncan can't Guard the Dream just like Prime Parish,Mchale, and Drob couldn't. Length doesn't bother Hakeem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk loand here Mt guards him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtJmDgIFI8 Yep Duncan is so amazing h3 destroys Mchale,Parish,MT,Drob defensivly. I mean he doesn't jump on pump fakes :rolleyes:

[Big#50]

Yep that was caused by Hakeem moving like a SG in the Post. Duncan can't Guard the Dream just like Prime Parish,Mchale, and Drob couldn't. Length doesn't bother Hakeem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk loand here Mt guards him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtJmDgIFI8 Yep Duncan is so amazing h3 destroys Mchale,Parish,MT,Drob defensivly. I mean he doesn't jump on pump fakes :rolleyes:
Cool. I guess the Sonics didn't know any of this.

[millwad]

Not Dantley then?
Dantley shot .540 over his career. Hakeem never had a single season that good. And Dantley gave up 5+ inches (7 if you buy Hakeem's listing as 7ft). Hakeem may have had more moves or more complex ones but not better ones.

Duncan didn't have Olajuwons array of moves. But he did have fabulous footwork, better range and driving ability and comparable efficiency as a scorer (probably higher efficiency when accounting for FTs and era, but I'd imagine at a lower usage rate).

Hakeem had better footwork than TIm, and no, he didn't have better range or driving ability and not as efficient as a scorer..:facepalm

[millwad]

Sure he did. Amare who got most of his points from the Nash PNR. Because he scored every point on TIM. LOL Who said DROB was a bad defender? But in the Houston series, he would have jumped if a mouse ran in front of him. He was shook. And had that deer caught in the headlights look all series long.

It's safe to say that if Duncan couldn't guard a 22 year old Stoudemire, he wouldn't be able to guard prime Olajuwon either.. :facepalm

[millwad]

Like Wilt said "those pump fakes dont mean shit." Duncan doesn't fall for fakes like Hakeem and DROB did.

But he sure fell for a 22 year old Stoudemire.. :facepalm

Hakeem has the highest point per game average for any center in the playoffs, he would score as easy on TD as he did on everyone else.

[juju151111]

But he sure fell for a 22 year old Stoudemire.. :facepalm

Hakeem has the highest point per game average for any center in the playoffs, he would score as easy on TD as he did on everyone else.
Like I said Drob,Mt,Parish,Mchale,Ewing etc... all garbage defenders. Duncan doesn't fall for pumpfakes :lol so Hakeem is done

[Big#50]

Like I said Drob,Mt,Parish,Mchale,Ewing etc... all garbage defenders. Duncan doesn't fall for pumpfakes :lol so Hakeem is done
I know you guys aren't comparing Haleems smooth and fluid footwork with Amare's explosivenessssss.

[jlauber]

But he sure fell for a 22 year old Stoudemire.. :facepalm

Hakeem has the highest point per game average for any center in the playoffs, he would score as easy on TD as he did on everyone else.


Of course, there were plenty of excuses when a 22-23 year old Hakeem was just SLAUGHTERED by a 38-39 year old Kareem. Kareem averaged 10 ppg MORE against Hakeem in those years, and shot .050 BETTER than he did against the REST of the centers of the 80's. There has NEVER been ANY other center in NBA history that EVER allowed an opposing center to averaged 32 ppg on .633 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT games (much less a 38-39 year old.)

Then, a supposedly PRIME Hakeem was POUNDED by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals. He was HELPLESS against a Shaq that averaged 28 ppg on...again... .595 shooting. Yes, Hakeem SLIGHTLY outscored Shaq in that series, 32 ppg to 28 ppg...BUT he took TEN more shots PER GAME in doing so (29-19 FGAs PER GAME.)

And, of course, do the Hakeem-lovers ever mention the CAREER H2H's with Shaq? Of course not. Hakeem was BRUTALIZED by him. Not even close (Shaq OUTSCORED him by 4 ppg, OUTREBOUNDED him by 3 rpg, and OUTSHOT by a staggering .544 to .447 margin.

Oh, and how about a more PRIME Shaq against a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs? How well did that go for Hakeem?

Hell, take a look at what a 35-36 year old Gilmore just SHELLED a 22-23 Hakeem with. 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting, and again, in TEN STRAIGHT games.


It amazes me how often we hear the EXCUSES for the BEATINGS that Hakeem took in his career. He was young when he obviously put up the WORST defensive numbers in NBA HISTORY. He was old when a more Prime Shaq just PULVERIZED him. Then, even when a YOUNG Shaq POUNDED him, while Hakeem's TEAMMATES step up an BADLY OUTPLAY Shaq's...nope, it was ALL Hakeem, and what Shaq accomplished was "stats-padding."

Or they will claim that, look, Hakeem outscored that 39 year old Kareem in the '86 WCF's by a "huge" margin of 31 ppg to 27 ppg. Of course, they will never mention that it was SAMPSON who guarded Kareem in that series. Why? Because Hakeem looked like a backup center on a 6th grade girl's team TRYING to guard Kareem in that season's five H2H games. BTW, how many other 39 year old centers were outscored by a supposed all-time great and by a 31-27 margin?

The Hakeem-lovers will jump up and SHOUT out to the world that Hakeem outplayed DRob in four of their six H2H's in the '95 playoffs. BUT, they will dismiss the fact that Robinson matched him across the board in nearly every stat in their 42 other H2H's, and BTW, also outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin in the process.

His teammates, including Barkley and Drexler were old and washed up (even though Barkley was outrebounding Hakeem by FOUR per game.) Or were worthless like Otis Thorpe who OUTREBOUNDED Hakeem in the '94 Finals...AND shot between .572 and .649 in the playoffs from '89 thru '94 (with TWO entire playoffs of .635 and .649.)

Hakeem was MURDERED by Rodman on the glass in their CAREER H2H's. A rapidly declining Moses outplayed Hakeem until Moses' last fulltime season, and from '85 thru '90. Or that Alonzo Mourning played Hakeem to a complete DRAW in their CAREER H2H's (and even outrebounded him.) Or that Mutombo easily outrebounded him, and considerably outshot him in their career H2H's.

Dominque outscoring Hakeem by FIVE ppg in their CAREER H2H's? Who cares, right? Jordan outscoring him by TEN ppg in their CAREER H2H's? Wait,...Hakeem had a career 13-10 record against Jordan. That's all that matters.
Nope, when the STATS point to those FACTS...then the EXCUSES come out.

BUT, when Duncan gets SLIGHTLY OUTSCORED by a 22 year old Amare...well, look at how BAD Duncan was. They will SCREAM those STATS to the world.:facepalm

[millwad]

I know you guys aren't comparing Haleems smooth and fluid footwork with Amare's explosivenessssss.

Please, Hakeem has the highest point per game average of any center in the playoffs... EVER.

Are you going to act like Amare is a better scorer and harder to guard? :facepalm

And it's still a fact that the Robinson was the one who guarded Shaq most of the times, who did TD ever really shut down?

Hakeem's both a better offensive and defensive player.

[juju151111]

Of course, there were plenty of excuses when a 22-23 year old Hakeem was just SLAUGHTERED by a 38-39 year old Kareem. Kareem averaged 10 ppg MORE against Hakeem in those years, and shot .050 BETTER than he did against the REST of the centers of the 80's. There has NEVER been ANY other center in NBA history that EVER allowed an opposing center to averaged 32 ppg on .633 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT games (much less a 38-39 year old.)

Then, a supposedly PRIME Hakeem was POUNDED by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals. He was HELPLESS against a Shaq that averaged 28 ppg on...again... .595 shooting. Yes, Hakeem SLIGHTLY outscored Shaq in that series, 32 ppg to 28 ppg...BUT he took TEN more shots PER GAME in doing so (29-19 FGAs PER GAME.)

And, of course, do the Hakeem-lovers ever mention the CAREER H2H's with Shaq? Of course not. Hakeem was BRUTALIZED by him. Not even close (Shaq OUTSCORED him by 4 ppg, OUTREBOUNDED him by 3 rpg, and OUTSHOT by a staggering .544 to .447 margin.

Oh, and how about a more PRIME Shaq against a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs? How well did that go for Hakeem?

Hell, take a look at what a 35-36 year old Gilmore just SHELLED a 22-23 Hakeem with. 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting, and again, in TEN STRAIGHT games.


It amazes me how often we hear the EXCUSES for the BEATINGS that Hakeem took in his career. He was young when he obviously put up the WORST defensive numbers in NBA HISTORY. He was old when a more Prime Shaq just PULVERIZED him. Then, even when a YOUNG Shaq POUNDED him, while Hakeem's TEAMMATES step up an BADLY OUTPLAY Shaq's...nope, it was ALL Hakeem, and what Shaq accomplished was "stats-padding."

Or they will claim that, look, Hakeem outscored that 39 year old Kareem in the '86 WCF's by a "huge" margin of 31 ppg to 27 ppg. Of course, they will never mention that it was SAMPSON who guarded Kareem in that series. Why? Because Hakeem looked like a backup center on a 6th grade girl's team TRYING to guard Kareem in that season's five H2H games. BTW, how many other 39 year old centers were outscored by a supposed all-time great and by a 31-27 margin?

The Hakeem-lovers will jump up and SHOUT out to the world that Hakeem outplayed DRob in four of their six H2H's in the '95 playoffs. BUT, they will dismiss the fact that Robinson matched him across the board in nearly every stat in their 42 other H2H's, and BTW, also outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin in the process.

His teammates, including Barkley and Drexler were old and washed up (even though Barkley was outrebounding Hakeem by FOUR per game.) Or were worthless like Otis Thorpe who OUTREBOUNDED Hakeem in the '94 Finals...AND shot between .572 and .649 in the playoffs from '89 thru '94 (with TWO entire playoffs of .635 and .649.)

Hakeem was MURDERED by Rodman on the glass in their CAREER H2H's. A rapidly declining Moses outplayed Hakeem until Moses' last fulltime season, and from '85 thru '90. Or that Alonzo Mourning played Hakeem to a complete DRAW in their CAREER H2H's (and even outrebounded him.) Or that Mutombo easily outrebounded him, and considerably outshot him in their career H2H's.

Nope, when the STATS point to those FACTS...then the EXCUSES come out.

BUT, when Duncan gets SLIGHTLY OUTSCORED by a 22 year old Amare...well, look at how BAD Duncan was. They will SCREAM those STATS to the world.:facepalm
He madlol Fact Hakeem highest ppg among Cs. You mad son u boy Wilt in higher pace era couldn't.lol u salty has hell. None of that matters Hakeem stepped up in playoff time. IDGAF about ur random stats wat happen to Drob and Ewing in the playoffs. Wat happen to Kareem in the 86 playoffs. Hakeem outplayed him

[jlauber]

He madlol Fact Hakeem highest ppg among Cs. You mad son u boy Wilt in higher pace era couldn't.lol u salty has hell

Hmmm...a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .505 over the course of his first 52 playoff games, 30 of which came against Russell. Included in that run were FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. And included in those were FOUR entire series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and even a 38.7 ppg series. And BTW, Wilt also had FOUR 30+ ppg series against RUSSELL, including a seven game series of 30 ppg and 31 rpg. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain had FOUR 50+ point games in those years, and THREE were in MUST-WIN games (one against RUSSELL.) How many Finals games did Hakeem hang a 45-27 game on 20-27 shooting?

In fact, how many Finals did Hakeem even shoot .501 or better? ZERO. His best Finals was .500 shooting, and he had two more at .483 and .479. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's LOW Finals, in SIX, was .517 (against Russell, and in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg and 27 rpg...and in a league that shot .433 overall.) His HIGH was ... .625, and in a seven game series in which he averaged 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg, and did so on ONE leg. He also outshot Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals. The same Thurmond who NEVER allowed a PRIME Kareem to shoot over .486 in their three playoff series (and in fact, held Kareem to .428 and .405 shooting in the other two.)

In Wilt's first eight seasons, he averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (in league's that AVERAGED .428 shooting in that span)...COMBINED!

How many SINGLE GAMES did Hakeem put in his entire FIFTEEN playoffs seasons, in which he hung a 30-27-5 .515 game? Much less average that over the course of 67 games (35 of which were against Russell, and another five against Thurmond)?

[jlauber]

He madlol Fact Hakeem highest ppg among Cs. You mad son u boy Wilt in higher pace era couldn't.lol u salty has hell. None of that matters Hakeem stepped up in playoff time. IDGAF about ur random stats wat happen to Drob and Ewing in the playoffs. Wat happen to Kareem in the 86 playoffs. Hakeem outplayed him


WOW! You mean a near 24 year old Hakeem outscoring a 39 year old Kareem by a whopping 31-27 ppg margin? Oh, and BTW, it was NOT Hakeem that guarded Kareem in that series, either. He was SHAMEFULLY destroyed by the 39 year old Kareem in their five seasonal H2H's, so they put SAMPSON on Kareem (with HELP from Hakeem.) Yep...and they reduced that 39 year old Kareem to a mere 27 ppg (with games of 31 and 33 points.)

Just AMAZING!:bowdown:



Now, how do think that series would have played out had a 23 Kareem been the Lakers' starting center? The same Kareem who averaged 31.7 ppg in 40 mpg, with 16.0 rpg, and shooting .577 (in a league that shot .449...which was Kareem's largest differential of his career.) THAT Kareem won the MVP, the FMVP, and a world title.

And, let's carry that even further. How do YOU think a 23 year old Kareem would have fared against a 39 year old Hakeem in that series?

[juju151111]

WOW! You mean a near 24 year old Hakeem outscoring a 39 year old Kareem by a whopping 31-27 ppg margin? Oh, and BTW, it was NOT Hakeem that guarded Kareem in that series, either. He was SHAMEFULLY destroyed by the 39 year old Kareem in their five seasonal H2H's, so they put SAMPSON on Kareem (with HELP from Hakeem.) Yep...and they reduced that 39 year old Kareem to a mere 27 ppg (with games of 31 and 33 points.)

Just AMAZING!:bowdown:



Now, how do think that series would have played out had a 23 Kareem been the Lakers' starting center? The same Kareem who averaged 31.7 ppg in 40 mpg, with 16.0 rpg, and shooting .577 (in a league that shot .449...which was Kareem's largest differential of his career.) THAT Kareem won the MVP, the FMVP, and a world title.

And, let's carry that even further. How do YOU think a 23 year old Kareem would have fared against a 39 year old Hakeem in that series?
I never said he guarded him and I can see ur hate for Hakeem comes from ur man crush on Wilt. Hakeem is a playoff performer Wilt wish he could be. Damn I feel bad for u through

[millwad]

Of course, there were plenty of excuses when a 22-23 year old Hakeem was just SLAUGHTERED by a 38-39 year old Kareem. Kareem averaged 10 ppg MORE against Hakeem in those years, and shot .050 BETTER than he did against the REST of the centers of the 80's. There has NEVER been ANY other center in NBA history that EVER allowed an opposing center to averaged 32 ppg on .633 shooting in TEN STRAIGHT games (much less a 38-39 year old.)

Then, a supposedly PRIME Hakeem was POUNDED by a YOUNG Shaq in the '95 Finals. He was HELPLESS against a Shaq that averaged 28 ppg on...again... .595 shooting. Yes, Hakeem SLIGHTLY outscored Shaq in that series, 32 ppg to 28 ppg...BUT he took TEN more shots PER GAME in doing so (29-19 FGAs PER GAME.)

And, of course, do the Hakeem-lovers ever mention the CAREER H2H's with Shaq? Of course not. Hakeem was BRUTALIZED by him. Not even close (Shaq OUTSCORED him by 4 ppg, OUTREBOUNDED him by 3 rpg, and OUTSHOT by a staggering .544 to .447 margin.

Oh, and how about a more PRIME Shaq against a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs? How well did that go for Hakeem?

Hell, take a look at what a 35-36 year old Gilmore just SHELLED a 22-23 Hakeem with. 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting, and again, in TEN STRAIGHT games.


It amazes me how often we hear the EXCUSES for the BEATINGS that Hakeem took in his career. He was young when he obviously put up the WORST defensive numbers in NBA HISTORY. He was old when a more Prime Shaq just PULVERIZED him. Then, even when a YOUNG Shaq POUNDED him, while Hakeem's TEAMMATES step up an BADLY OUTPLAY Shaq's...nope, it was ALL Hakeem, and what Shaq accomplished was "stats-padding."

Or they will claim that, look, Hakeem outscored that 39 year old Kareem in the '86 WCF's by a "huge" margin of 31 ppg to 27 ppg. Of course, they will never mention that it was SAMPSON who guarded Kareem in that series. Why? Because Hakeem looked like a backup center on a 6th grade girl's team TRYING to guard Kareem in that season's five H2H games. BTW, how many other 39 year old centers were outscored by a supposed all-time great and by a 31-27 margin?

The Hakeem-lovers will jump up and SHOUT out to the world that Hakeem outplayed DRob in four of their six H2H's in the '95 playoffs. BUT, they will dismiss the fact that Robinson matched him across the board in nearly every stat in their 42 other H2H's, and BTW, also outshot Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin in the process.

His teammates, including Barkley and Drexler were old and washed up (even though Barkley was outrebounding Hakeem by FOUR per game.) Or were worthless like Otis Thorpe who OUTREBOUNDED Hakeem in the '94 Finals...AND shot between .572 and .649 in the playoffs from '89 thru '94 (with TWO entire playoffs of .635 and .649.)

Hakeem was MURDERED by Rodman on the glass in their CAREER H2H's. A rapidly declining Moses outplayed Hakeem until Moses' last fulltime season, and from '85 thru '90. Or that Alonzo Mourning played Hakeem to a complete DRAW in their CAREER H2H's (and even outrebounded him.) Or that Mutombo easily outrebounded him, and considerably outshot him in their career H2H's.

Dominque outscoring Hakeem by FIVE ppg in their CAREER H2H's? Who cares, right? Jordan outscoring him by TEN ppg in their CAREER H2H's? Wait,...Hakeem had a career 13-10 record against Jordan. That's all that matters.
Nope, when the STATS point to those FACTS...then the EXCUSES come out.

BUT, when Duncan gets SLIGHTLY OUTSCORED by a 22 year old Amare...well, look at how BAD Duncan was. They will SCREAM those STATS to the world.:facepalm

Again a nonsense post from Jbieber.

Between Kareem and Hakeem there's no excuses, but it's a fact that Hakeem was rookie and 2nd year pro who was no where close his defensive prime. It's also a fact that he without question in his 2nd year as a pro outplayed Kareem and the Lakers in the WCF.

And again you're a retard, what a great example that you brought up the '95 finals, the same series Hakeem outplayed and swept Shaq..:facepalm

And haha, again you mentioned a 36 year old Hakeem vs prime Shaq, you're beyond retarded.

Regarding the Gilmore match-up, you don't even know who guarded him you retard. How can you write anything like that when you don't even know who guarded Gilmore?

And seriously, you mother deserves a DP, post the boxscores from the 6 meetings Hakeem according to you had against Gilmore in his rookie season. And how stupid are you really? Why do you even make a fool of yourself like that when you even earlier in this thread wrote that you don't know if Hakeem guarded Gilmore or not.. :Facepalm

And haha, when the hell did Hakeem post the worst defensive numbers in NBA history, you're beyond pathetic..:facepalm

And no one said that Hakeem badly outscored Kareem in the WCF, but people rightfully so say that Hakeem outplayed Kareem in that series and he did it easily.

Bring up random regular season games all you want but fact still remains and your revisionist history won't change anything.

And haha, are you know going to try to hype up Hakeem's teammates? You've b*tched like nobody else on this forum about Wilt's "horrible" HOF teammates and now you're trying to claim that Hakeem had great teammates, haha. Hakeem in '94 won with a 2nd option in Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on 38% shooting in the playoffs, your loverboy Wilt could barely win while being the tied 2nd and fourth option on offense and now you're bashing Hakeem for having "great teammates". :facepalm

And haha, Rodman "murdering" Hakeem a la rebounds? You fail to mention that he outrebounded Hakeem 2.5 rebounds per game in their H2H's while Hakeem outscoring Rodman with 20 points, outstealing, outblocking and outassisting Rodman. God you're stupid.. :facepalm

And Hakeem played Moses good which is impressive considering that Moses only was 29 when Hakeem came to the league, stop lying..

And haha, Alonzo only got Dream it going against old ass Dream, not against prime Hakeem. :facepalm

And you pathetic old man, Dikembe easily "outrebounding" Hakeem? He outrebounded Hakeem with 0.8 rebounds per game while getting outscored by 11, outassisted, outblocked and outstealed. God your stupid.. :facepalm

How the hell is 0.8 equal to "easily outrebounding"? Seriously..

And how the hell did prime Duncan get "slightly outscored" by the 22 year old Stoudemire? Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% against TD in that series, he got both outshot and outscored with 10 points per game in that series. Is that what you call "slightly outscored"?


It's funny how full of crap you really are and how much you play with words, Dikembe outrebounding Hakeem by 0.8 rebounds per game is what you call "easily outrebounding" Hakeem but Duncan getting outscored by 10 points per game on better FG% is what you call getting "slightly outscored"..

And why the hell do you mention Hakeem getting outscored by Jordan (greatest scorer of all-time) who was a SG and Wilkins who was a SF.. How stupid are you really? Are you seriously comparing them when they don't even play the same position? :facepalm

[jlauber]

I never said he guarded him and I can see ur hate for Hakeem comes from ur man crush on Wilt. Hakeem is a playoff performer Wilt wish he could be. Damn I feel bad for u through

He was? EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS! Which is, BY FAR, the most among a so-called Top-10 player. Yep, he was sure "clutch."

[millwad]

WOW! You mean a near 24 year old Hakeem outscoring a 39 year old Kareem by a whopping 31-27 ppg margin? Oh, and BTW, it was NOT Hakeem that guarded Kareem in that series, either. He was SHAMEFULLY destroyed by the 39 year old Kareem in their five seasonal H2H's, so they put SAMPSON on Kareem (with HELP from Hakeem.) Yep...and they reduced that 39 year old Kareem to a mere 27 ppg (with games of 31 and 33 points.)

Just AMAZING!:bowdown:



Now, how do think that series would have played out had a 23 Kareem been the Lakers' starting center? The same Kareem who averaged 31.7 ppg in 40 mpg, with 16.0 rpg, and shooting .577 (in a league that shot .449...which was Kareem's largest differential of his career.) THAT Kareem won the MVP, the FMVP, and a world title.

And, let's carry that even further. How do YOU think a 23 year old Kare
em would have fared against a 39 year old Hakeem in that series?

No one gives a damn about random regular season games, only you and that is because Wilt always shrunk in terms of scoring the playoffs. That is why you spam about random meaningless regular season games all the time but you don't care one bit about the playoffs..

And no one is saying that Hakeem is better than Jabbar, Jabbar was the greatest center ever but it's a fact that Hakeem outplayed him and the Lakers easily in the playoffs in '86 which makes all your essays about their meaningless matchups in Hakeem's rookie and 2nd year as a pro season totally non relevant.

[juju151111]

Again a nonsense post from Jbieber.

Between Kareem and Hakeem there's no excuses, but it's a fact that Hakeem was rookie and 2nd year pro who was no where close his defensive prime. It's also a fact that he without question in his 2nd year as a pro outplayed Kareem and the Lakers in the WCF.

And again you're a retard, what a great example that you brought up the '95 finals, the same series Hakeem outplayed and swept Shaq..:facepalm

And haha, again you mentioned a 36 year old Hakeem vs prime Shaq, you're beyond retarded.

Regarding the Gilmore match-up, you don't even know who guarded him you retard. How can you write anything like that when you don't even know who guarded Gilmore?

And seriously, you mother deserves a DP, post the boxscores from the 6 meetings Hakeem according to you had against Gilmore in his rookie season. And how stupid are you really? Why do you even make a fool of yourself like that when you even earlier in this thread wrote that you don't know if Hakeem guarded Gilmore or not.. :Facepalm

And haha, when the hell did Hakeem post the worst defensive numbers in NBA history, you're beyond pathetic..:facepalm

And no one said that Hakeem badly outscored Kareem in the WCF, but people rightfully so say that Hakeem outplayed Kareem in that series and he did it easily.

Bring up random regular season games all you want but fact still remains and your revisionist history won't change anything.

And haha, are you know going to try to hype up Hakeem's teammates? You've b*tched like nobody else on this forum about Wilt's "horrible" HOF teammates and now you're trying to claim that Hakeem had great teammates, haha. Hakeem in '94 won with a 2nd option in Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on 38% shooting in the playoffs, your loverboy Wilt could barely win while being the tied 2nd and fourth option on offense and now you're bashing Hakeem for having "great teammates". :facepalm

And haha, Rodman "murdering" Hakeem a la rebounds? You fail to mention that he outrebounded Hakeem 2.5 rebounds per game in their H2H's while Hakeem outscoring Rodman with 20 points, outstealing, outblocking and outassisting Rodman. God you're stupid.. :facepalm

And Hakeem played Moses good which is impressive considering that Moses only was 29 when Hakeem came to the league, stop lying..

And haha, Alonzo only got Dream it going against old ass Dream, not against prime Hakeem. :facepalm

And you pathetic old man, Dikembe easily "outrebounding" Hakeem? He outrebounded Hakeem with 0.8 rebounds per game while getting outscored by 11, outassisted, outblocked and outstealed. God your stupid.. :facepalm

How the hell is 0.8 equal to "easily outrebounding"? Seriously..

And how the hell did prime Duncan get "slightly outscored" by the 22 year old Stoudemire? Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% against TD in that series, he got both outshot and outscored with 10 points per game in that series. Is that what you call "slightly outscored"?


It's funny how full of crap you really are and how much you play with words, Dikembe outrebounding Hakeem by 0.8 rebounds per game is what you call "easily outrebounding" Hakeem but Duncan getting outscored by 10 points per game on better FG% is what you call getting "slightly outscored"..

And why the hell do you mention Hakeem getting outscored by Jordan (greatest scorer of all-time) who was a SG and Wilkins who was a SF.. How stupid are you really? Are you seriously comparing them when they don't even play the same position? :facepalm
ETHER:applause:

[juju151111]

He was? EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS! Which is, BY FAR, the most among a so-called Top-10 player. Yep, he was sure "clutch."
Hakeem won two chips has the undisputed best player. Lol Wilt was Russell bitch :lol

[millwad]

He was? EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS! Which is, BY FAR, the most among a so-called Top-10 player. Yep, he was sure "clutch."

What years should Hakeem have made it further? Tell us that instead, you b*tch over Wilt's HOF-teammates all the time but you always hype Hakeem's random teammates like Thorpe and Maxwell, haha.

And talking about Hakeem and being clutch, instead of meaningless spam I'll show you how clutch Hakeem was;

In his prime ('93-'95), he faced elimination 10 times and his record was 9-1 in those games and the one game he lost was in '93 in a highly controversial game.

This is what Hakeem did in those games;

31/21/7/3/3
23/17/9/3/2
37/17/5/3
25/10/7/3
40/8/3
33/10/4
31/16/3
30/8/10/5
29/11/4

[jlauber]

Again a nonsense post from Jbieber.

Between Kareem and Hakeem there's no excuses, but it's a fact that Hakeem was rookie and 2nd year pro who was no where close his defensive prime. It's also a fact that he without question in his 2nd year as a pro outplayed Kareem and the Lakers in the WCF.

And again you're a retard, what a great example that you brought up the '95 finals, the same series Hakeem outplayed and swept Shaq..:facepalm

And haha, again you mentioned a 36 year old Hakeem vs prime Shaq, you're beyond retarded.

Regarding the Gilmore match-up, you don't even know who guarded him you retard. How can you write anything like that when you don't even know who guarded Gilmore?

And seriously, you mother deserves a DP, post the boxscores from the 6 meetings Hakeem according to you had against Gilmore in his rookie season. And how stupid are you really? Why do you even make a fool of yourself like that when you even earlier in this thread wrote that you don't know if Hakeem guarded Gilmore or not.. :Facepalm

And haha, when the hell did Hakeem post the worst defensive numbers in NBA history, you're beyond pathetic..:facepalm

And no one said that Hakeem badly outscored Kareem in the WCF, but people rightfully so say that Hakeem outplayed Kareem in that series and he did it easily.

Bring up random regular season games all you want but fact still remains and your revisionist history won't change anything.

And haha, are you know going to try to hype up Hakeem's teammates? You've b*tched like nobody else on this forum about Wilt's "horrible" HOF teammates and now you're trying to claim that Hakeem had great teammates, haha. Hakeem in '94 won with a 2nd option in Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on 38% shooting in the playoffs, your loverboy Wilt could barely win while being the tied 2nd and fourth option on offense and now you're bashing Hakeem for having "great teammates". :facepalm

And haha, Rodman "murdering" Hakeem a la rebounds? You fail to mention that he outrebounded Hakeem 2.5 rebounds per game in their H2H's while Hakeem outscoring Rodman with 20 points, outstealing, outblocking and outassisting Rodman. God you're stupid.. :facepalm

And Hakeem played Moses good which is impressive considering that Moses only was 29 when Hakeem came to the league, stop lying..

And haha, Alonzo only got Dream it going against old ass Dream, not against prime Hakeem. :facepalm

And you pathetic old man, Dikembe easily "outrebounding" Hakeem? He outrebounded Hakeem with 0.8 rebounds per game while getting outscored by 11, outassisted, outblocked and outstealed. God your stupid.. :facepalm

How the hell is 0.8 equal to "easily outrebounding"? Seriously..

And how the hell did prime Duncan get "slightly outscored" by the 22 year old Stoudemire? Stoudemire averaged 37 points on 55% against TD in that series, he got both outshot and outscored with 10 points per game in that series. Is that what you call "slightly outscored"?


It's funny how full of crap you really are and how much you play with words, Dikembe outrebounding Hakeem by 0.8 rebounds per game is what you call "easily outrebounding" Hakeem but Duncan getting outscored by 10 points per game on better FG% is what you call getting "slightly outscored"..

And why the hell do you mention Hakeem getting outscored by Jordan (greatest scorer of all-time) who was a SG and Wilkins who was a SF.. How stupid are you really? Are you seriously comparing them when they don't even play the same position? :facepalm

1. Here were Gilmore's SIX H2H games against Hakeem. And the box scores lineup exactly with Hakeem matching Gilmore. Whether they guarded each other, or not, Gilmore was BY FAR, the better player.


84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16

Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg


85-86

4 games

Gilmore 34-49 .694 79 19.8 ppg
Olajuwon 28-57 .491 74 18.5 ppg


Thru 85-86

10 games

Gilmore 86-127 .677 237 23.7 ppg
Olajuwon 75-152 .493 187 18.7 ppg




And I dare YOU to challenge the above.

2. Worst defensive numbers in NBA history. Ok, find me another CENTER, ANY center, in NBA HISTORY, who ever allowed ANY other center, to AVERAGED 32 ppg and on .633 shooting, (with THREE games of 40+)...and in TEN STRAIGHT games. And, IF Hakeem did defend Gilmore in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons...well, there are ANOTHER string of TEN STRAIGHT GAMES in which Hakeem allowed an opposing center to average 24 ppg on .680 shooting.

Hell, even Robert Parish got into the act in 84-85, with a 38 point game on 15-20 shooting.

3. True, over the course of their H2H careers, Rodman could "only" outrebound Hakeem by a 2.5 rpg margin. BUT, he did so while playing 29 TEN MINUTES LESS PER GAME. Oh, and when Rodman actually became a legitimate rebounder, from 90-91 on, he outrebounded Hakeem in their 16 H2H's by a 13-2-1 margin, and overall, by a 15.9 rpg to 10.4 rpg margin...and in LESS mpg...or over FIVE per game!

4. Moses? His last great season was Hakeem's rookie season. BUT, it was nowhere near his GREATEST seasons, which ran from '78-79 thru 82-83. THAT Moses would have treated Hakeem like a red-headed step child. As it was, Moses played Hakeem thru Hakeem's first rebounding title season, 89-90, and he outscored Hakeem by a 21.6 to 20.3 ppg margin, and outrebounded him in that span, 12.5 rpg to 10.9 rpg. Once again, take a Moses from '79 thru '83, and that margin would have been considerably more dramatic.

BTW, in Moses' LAST SEASON, and in his two H2H's with Hakeem, ...yes, Hakeem did outrebound Moses, 13-12. BUT, Hakeem played 84 minutes in those two games...Moses played a TOTAL of 30!
5. You use age when it is Mourning, but never excuse it when it's against a 39 year old Kareem. You PROUDLY scream out that Hakeem outscored Kareem in the '86 WCF's by that 31-27 ppg margin.

6. SCORING is scoring. Why couldn't a "great" scorer like Hakeem, and facing the Bull's centers for cryingoutloud, come within the other side of the universe in games against MJ?

How could Hakeem be outscored by Dominique in the bulk of their 27 H2H's and by a total margin of FIVE per game?

How could he let Bird outscore him by a 28.9 to 21.4 ppg margin, and by outshooting Hakeem, .503 to .413 in those H2H's?

Or, subtract Magic's two H2H games, in his 95-96 season, when he had been out of the league for five years, and HE, TOO, outscored Hakeem in their career H2H's, by a 22.8 ppg to 21.5 ppg margin. (And even if you include them, Hakeem outscored Magic by a 22.1 ppg to 21.7 ppg margin.)

I could not care less who was guarding whom in these "scoring" discussions, either. Do you think MJ would have just stood around and watched Hakeem outscoring him by 10 ppg in their H2H's?

[jlauber]

No one gives a damn about random regular season games, only you and that is because Wilt always shrunk in terms of scoring the playoffs. That is why you spam about random meaningless regular season games all the time but you don't care one bit about the playoffs..

And no one is saying that Hakeem is better than Jabbar, Jabbar was the greatest center ever but it's a fact that Hakeem outplayed him and the Lakers easily in the playoffs in '86 which makes all your essays about their meaningless matchups in Hakeem's rookie and 2nd year as a pro season totally non relevant.

Ok, since you brought up Hakeem's "clutch" games...all TEN of them in his playoff career...here are Wilt's 35!


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


Care to post ALL of Hakeem's "elimination" games?

[jlauber]

Or this...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[jlauber]

Or the Wilt who "declined" in scoring...

Ok, how about the PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain?


Here are Chamberlain's AND his opposing center's scoring games in Wilt's PRIME from 59-60 thru 67-68...all 80 of them. BTW, Wilt played in 160 playoff games, and these were exactly half of them.

Incidently, Wilt' "scoring" prime was from 59-60 thru 65-66.

* denotes games against Russell
** denotes games against Thurmond
*** denotes games against Bellamy

Some other sidenotes:

1. Wilt outshot Russell from the field in the '62 ECF's, .468 to .420 (a close approximation.)

2. Chamberlain shot .559 in the '64 WCF's (while scoring 38.6 ppg)

3. Chamberlain shot .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals, and outscored him per game, 29.2 to 11.2 ppg (and we don't have Russell's FG%, but Russell shot .356 in his ten post season games, five of which were against Wilt.)

4. Russell shot .451 against Wilt in the '65 playoffs (and .702 against LA in the Finals.)

5. Wilt shot .509 against Russell in the '66 ECF's (while averaging 28 ppg and 30.2 rpg)

6. Wilt outshot Russell in the '67 ECF's by a .556 to .358 margin.

7. Wilt outshot Thurmond in the '67 Finals by a .560 to .343 margin.

8. Wilt held Bellamy to .421 shooting in the '68 playoffs (Bellamy shot .541 against the league that season.)


Quote:
Prime "Scoring" Wilt

1. 35-5
2. 28-25
3. 53-7
4. 42-19 *
5. 29-15 *
6. 12-26 *
7. 24-17 *
8. 50-22 *
9. 26-25 *
10. 46-15
11. 32-12
12. 33-7
13. 32-9
14. 28-18
15. 40-14
16. 29-27
17. 56-20
18. 33-16 *
19. 42-9 *
20. 35-31 *
21. 41-31 *
22. 30-29 *
23. 32-19 *
24. 22-19 *
25. 37-24
26. 28-4
27. 46-22
28. 36-14
29. 50-6
30. 34-20
31. 39-10
32. 22-9 *
33. 32-9 *
34. 35-16 *
35. 27-8 *
36. 30-14 *
37. 26-18
38. 30-10
39. 17-16
40. 38-7
41. 33-11 *
42. 30-12 *
43. 24-19 *
44. 34-18 *
45. 30-12 *
46. 30-22 *
47. 30-15 *
48. 25-13 *
49. 23-10 *
50. 31-11 *
51. 15-18 *
52. 46-18 *


Wilt from 66-67 thru 67-68


53. 41-29
54. 37-21
55. 16-12
56. 18-8
57. 24-20 *
58. 15-14 *
59. 20-10 *
60. 20-9 *
61. 29-4 *
62. 16-24 **
63. 10-7 **
64. 26-17 **
65. 10-8 **
66. 20-17 **
67. 24-12 **
68. 37-14 ***
69. 24-26 ***
70. 18-22 ***
71. 23-28 ***
72. 26-11 ***
73. 25-19 ***
74. 33-11 *
75. 15-11 *
76. 23-13 *
77. 22-24 *
78. 28-8 *
79. 20-17 *
80. 14-12 *


Wilt outscored his opposing centers in 49 of his first 50 playoff games (and 50 of 52 in his "scoring" prime overall) MANY by HUGE margins.

Overall, in Wilt's first 80 playoff games, covering his PRIME years, he outscored his opposing starting center in 73 of them.

The Wilt who "declined" in the post-season...

[jlauber]

BTW, care to post the playoff series in which Hakeem was outrebounded? Even by his TEAMMATES?

Of course, Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series...and guess what? He was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them. In fact, he was outrebounding Thurmond by SEVEN in one series, and Russell by NINE in another.

[millwad]

1. Here were Gilmore's SIX H2H games against Hakeem. And the box scores lineup exactly with Hakeem matching Gilmore. Whether they guarded each other, or not, Gilmore was BY FAR, the better player.


Source? And still you don't know who guarded who.. :facepalm



And I dare YOU to challenge the above.

2. Worst defensive numbers in NBA history. Ok, find me another CENTER, ANY center, in NBA HISTORY, who ever allowed ANY other center, to AVERAGED 32 ppg and on .633 shooting, (with THREE games of 40+)...and in TEN STRAIGHT games. And, IF Hakeem did defend Gilmore in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons...well, there are ANOTHER string of TEN STRAIGHT GAMES in which Hakeem allowed an opposing center to average 24 ppg on .680 shooting.


First of all, again your spamming about meaningless regular season games from a player's rookie and 2nd year pro season which is just pathetic.

And you don't know if Gilmore was guarded by Olajuwon or not. Lets answer this instead, when Wilt won his 2nd ring Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against prime defensive Wilt in the regular season. Show me any other player who let another player average that many points on 40% shooting when he was in his defensive prime.



Hell, even Robert Parish got into the act in 84-85, with a 38 point game on 15-20 shooting.


You don't know who guarded Parish in that game, and I'd appreciate it if you would post the boxscore from that game. And Olajuwon destroyed Parish in the '86 finals.



3. True, over the course of their H2H careers, Rodman could "only" outrebound Hakeem by a 2.5 rpg margin. BUT, he did so while playing 29 TEN MINUTES LESS PER GAME. Oh, and when Rodman actually became a legitimate rebounder, from 90-91 on, he outrebounded Hakeem in their 16 H2H's by a 13-2-1 margin, and overall, by a 15.9 rpg to 10.4 rpg margin...and in LESS mpg...or over FIVE per game!


Rodman was playing for them rebounds, retarded comparison to start with considering the fact that one player did it all while the other only focused on defending (when he felt for it he played defense too, watch Spurs '95 series against Rockets and see how abused Rodman got by Horry)



4. Moses? His last great season was Hakeem's rookie season. BUT, it was nowhere near his GREATEST seasons, which ran from '78-79 thru 82-83. THAT Moses would have treated Hakeem like a red-headed step child. As it was, Moses played Hakeem thru Hakeem's first rebounding title season, 89-90, and he outscored Hakeem by a 21.6 to 20.3 ppg margin, and outrebounded him in that span, 12.5 rpg to 10.9 rpg. Once again, take a Moses from '79 thru '83, and that margin would have been considerably more dramatic.


Haha, you're beyond retarded. Young Hakeem matched up good against Moses who only was 29 when Hakeem joined the league. And how retarded are you really, lets put prime Olajuwon in their instead, why the hell should Moses get the benifit to play in his prime against a rookie Hakeem? Your arguments are just terrible.



5. You use age when it is Mourning, but never excuse it when it's against a 39 year old Kareem. You PROUDLY scream out that Hakeem outscored Kareem in the '86 WCF's by that 31-27 ppg margin.


I've stated thousand of times that Kareem is my number one center, you don't want to read it though. And I've never "proudly screamed" that Hakeem outscored Kareem in the WCF. I've stated that he outplayed Kareem which he did and I only mention it when you spam about meaningless regular season games between the two of them,



6. SCORING is scoring. Why couldn't a "great" scorer like Hakeem, and facing the Bull's centers for cryingoutloud, come within the other side of the universe in games against MJ?


Wow, are you even serious? Hakeem is the only superstar in the NBA who faced Jordan and didn't have a loosing record against him, the same Michael Jordan who is the greatest of all-time only had a loosing record during his whole career against Hakeem.



How could Hakeem be outscored by Dominique in the bulk of their 27 H2H's and by a total margin of FIVE per game?


What the hell, they don't even play the same position you freaking retard.



How could he let Bird outscore him by a 28.9 to 21.4 ppg margin, and by outshooting Hakeem, .503 to .413 in those H2H's?


My god, are you really this retarded? Bird is SF and Hakeem is a C.



Or, subtract Magic's two H2H games, in his 95-96 season, when he had been out of the league for five years, and HE, TOO, outscored Hakeem in their career H2H's, by a 22.8 ppg to 21.5 ppg margin. (And even if you include them, Hakeem outscored Magic by a 22.1 ppg to 21.7 ppg margin.)


Haha, this is beyond pathetic. We're talking about defense and you're spamming about guards outscoring Hakeem.



I could not care less who was guarding whom in these "scoring" discussions, either. Do you think MJ would have just stood around and watched Hakeem outscoring him by 10 ppg in their H2H's?

Haha, this is just laughable..
Yeah, Hakeem should just leave his man and just focus on Magic, Jordan, Bird and Wilkins, haha.. :facepalm

This post from you only proves that you don't know basketball, you just don't.

And it's still a fact that Hakeem was one of the greatest help side defensive
players. If I would be you I'd just delete your post, you actually went so far that you spammed about Hakeem getting outscored by players who didn't play the same position as him, haha..

[jlauber]

He madlol Fact Hakeem highest ppg among Cs. You mad son u boy Wilt in higher pace era couldn't.lol u salty has hell. None of that matters Hakeem stepped up in playoff time. IDGAF about ur random stats wat happen to Drob and Ewing in the playoffs. Wat happen to Kareem in the 86 playoffs. Hakeem outplayed him

BTW, remember, it was YOU who brought WILT into this discussion...

[millwad]

Ok, since you brought up Hakeem's "clutch" games...all TEN of them in his playoff career...here are Wilt's 35!



Care to post ALL of Hakeem's "elimination" games?

Haha, this is beyond sad, it was so obvious that you only started this thread so you could spam some more about Wilt.

I honestly feel bad for your family, your mother should have swallowed, seriously.. :facepalm

[millwad]

Or the Wilt who "declined" in scoring...

Ok, how about the PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain?

I'm not gonna give you the luxury to spam your own thread with Wilt crap..

[Big#50]

Hakeem has to be the most overrated player on ISH. Lots of empty stats early in his career.

[millwad]

Hakeem won two chips has the undisputed best player. Lol Wilt was Russell bitch :lol

Don't bother, seriously, and don't mention Wilt..

He only started this thread so he'd be able to some how hi-jack it and spam about Wilt like he just did.

It's a fact that he didn't see Olajuwon play, go back in this thread and see for yourself how much posters mocked Jlauber for his horrible break down of Hakeem's game, it's safe to say that he never saw Hakeem play.

He's also the only poster (other than a troll who got banned) who claims that Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the '95 finals, haha. I even tested him and asked him to break down the games of that series and he got busted badly.

He just watched the boxscores of the games and based on the boxscores he made a pathetic judgement. He gave game 2 to Shaq which was his ultimate fail, Shaq got badly outplayed in the first half of that game and got his scoring going in garbage time when the game was over.

When I replied to Jlauber's stupid break down of game 2 he was dumbfounded and gave me a stupid reply a la "so you you can't score in the 2nd half?"...

He has no knowledge what so ever, not even about Wilt, he changed his mind regarding Wilt over youtube and quotes and this was 40 years after the games where played.

Watch this thread where Jlauber got badly exposed for changing his mind from no where because of insecurity; http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

[Big#50]

It's funny how you haven't backed up any of your stupid statements in this thread, just empty words..

Fact still remains that Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player compared to Duncan. Don't be butthurt over Hakeem abusing the Spurs, it's ok.

Do you mind to make a break down of the "empty stats", haha.. :facepalm
Those "empty stats" lead his team to the finals in '86 vs competition Duncan never faced. In fact, Duncan never beat a team even close as good as the '86 Lakers a la Jabbar, Worthy and Magic.
He only beat Kobe and Shaq. LOL that's not a big deal.

[jlauber]

Source? And still you don't know who guarded who.. :facepalm



First of all, again your spamming about meaningless regular season games from a player's rookie and 2nd year pro season which is just pathetic.

And you don't know if Gilmore was guarded by Olajuwon or not. Lets answer this instead, when Wilt won his 2nd ring Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against prime defensive Wilt in the regular season. Show me any other player who let another player average that many points on 40% shooting when he was in his defensive prime.



You don't know who guarded Parish in that game, and I'd appreciate it if you would post the boxscore from that game. And Olajuwon destroyed Parish in the '86 finals.



Rodman was playing for them rebounds, retarded comparison to start with considering the fact that one player did it all while the other only focused on defending (when he felt for it he played defense too, watch Spurs '95 series against Rockets and see how abused Rodman got by Horry)



Haha, you're beyond retarded. Young Hakeem matched up good against Moses who only was 29 when Hakeem joined the league. And how retarded are you really, lets put prime Olajuwon in their instead, why the hell should Moses get the benifit to play in his prime against a rookie Hakeem? Your arguments are just terrible.



I've stated thousand of times that Kareem is my number one center, you don't want to read it though. And I've never "proudly screamed" that Hakeem outscored Kareem in the WCF. I've stated that he outplayed Kareem which he did and I only mention it when you spam about meaningless regular season games between the two of them,



Wow, are you even serious? Hakeem is the only superstar in the NBA who faced Jordan and didn't have a loosing record against him, the same Michael Jordan who is the greatest of all-time only had a loosing record during his whole career against Hakeem.



What the hell, they don't even play the same position you freaking retard.



My god, are you really this retarded? Bird is SF and Hakeem is a C.



Haha, this is beyond pathetic. We're talking about defense and you're spamming about guards outscoring Hakeem.



Haha, this is just laughable..
Yeah, Hakeem should just leave his man and just focus on Magic, Jordan, Bird and Wilkins, haha.. :facepalm

This post from you only proves that you don't know basketball, you just don't.

And it's still a fact that Hakeem was one of the greatest help side defensive
players. If I would be you I'd just delete your post, you actually went so far that you spammed about Hakeem getting outscored by players who didn't play the same position as him, haha..

1. Source? Of course I will do the RESEARCH for the one who wouldn't know how to open up a book, much less be capable of reading it? BUT, I am only going to post ONE box score. From that one, you can easily look up the other five.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504070SAS.html

BTW, in EVERY one of them, the two are lined up in the box score...

2. Parish.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198503170BOS.html


3. Wilt was NOT in his defensive prime in his 13th season. Only a complete idiot would claim as much.

Here is what a PRIME DEFENSIVE Chamberlain looked like...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

As for a PRIME Kareem averaging 40 ppg on .500 shooting in FIVE games against Wilt. How about their CAREER H2H's. Kareem shot .464 against Wilt in 28 CAREER H2H's. A 38-42 year old shot .610 against Hakeem in 23 H2H's.

Oh, and in their 28 career H2H's, Kareem shot 50% or better, against Wilt, in TEN of them. In his 23 H2H's against Hakeem, he shot 50% or better, in TWENTY of them. BTW, Wilt also held Kareem to less than .399 shooting, in SEVEN of their H2H's.

And, a 34 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, battled a PRIME Kareem in TEN H2H games in '71. Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 26.1 ppg to 22.8 ppg. BUT, Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg in those ten games. AND, he outshot Kareem, .481 to .454 in that span.

Or that a near PRIME Wilt, and before he shattered his knee, POUNDED Kareem in their one H2H before that injury. He outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.

Or, a Wilt, and in his LAST season, at age 36, played against Kareem in SIX regular season H2H's, and outshot him by...get this... .737 to .450. Included in those six games, was a game in which Wilt outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

As for your point about a "great" averaging 40 ppg on .500 shooting in FIVE straight H2H's?

How about this? A PRIME Chamberlain, and facing 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who would be listed at 7-0 in today's NBA BTW), AVERAGED 48.2 ppg, on .500 shooting, in TWENTY STRAIGHT GAMES from 61-62 thru 62-63.

Now, that was a PRIME Chamberlain. The SAME Chamberlain who AVERAGED 40.1 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed in their NINE H2H's in the 64-65 season.

Or the SAME Wilt, who in a span of 11 straight games, pummelled Thurmond with a 30 ppg average, including games of 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 (outscoring Nate 45-13.) The SAME Thurmond who held Kareem to awful scoring and shooting in his 50+ H2H games...and holding Kareem to a HIGH game of 34 points in those 50_ games.

The SAME WILT who outshot Nate, in their three post-season series, by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and, get this.. .560 to .343. The SAME Thurmond who held a PRIME Kareem to three straight playoff series of .486, .428, and even .405 shooting.

THAT was a PRIME Chamberlain.

[jlauber]

Hakeem has to be the most overrated player on ISH. Lots of empty stats early in his career.

I have been making that claim for years.

His resume is not Top-10 worthy.

[jlauber]

It's funny how you haven't backed up any of your stupid statements in this thread, just empty words..

Fact still remains that Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player compared to Duncan. Don't be butthurt over Hakeem abusing the Spurs, it's ok.

Do you mind to make a break down of the "empty stats", haha.. :facepalm
Those "empty stats" lead his team to the finals in '86 vs competition Duncan never faced. In fact, Duncan never beat a team even close as good as the '86 Lakers a la Jabbar, Worthy and Magic.

I do find it fascinating, that MAGIC then DESTROYED Hakeem's Rockets in the 89-90 and 90-91 playoffs. MAGIC took a rapidly declining Laker team, and WITHOUT Kareem, to a 6-1 record in their 7 playoff games.

I guess the loss of SAMPSON was too much for Hakeem to overcome, though.

[jlauber]

I will not give you the luxury to be able to spam about Wilt but I hope you're happy with calling Psileas and CavaliersFTW complete idiots.. :facepalm

At least I know that CavaliersFTW thinks that you're a complete idiot so I guess it's ok.

IF they made that claim...then yes, they are.

A DEFENSIVE PRIME Chamberlain was completely SHUTTING DOWN the ENTIRE NBA in the mid-60's. He was LIGHT YEARS ahead of the BEST centers in the league in the mid-60's, too. He just CRUSHED them. No OTHER CENTER, in NBA HISTORY, DOMINATED EVERY opposing center, in their H2H's, like Chamberlain did to his in the mid-60's.

[jlauber]

Haha, the last 10 years?
Sure, Jlauber.. :facepalm

Your hate towards Olajuwon came after people on ISH started comparing him with Wilt.

The same Wilt you changed your mind about over youtube and quotes a la;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53



You're a hypocrite and you're full of crap.

THIS, coming from the biggest LIAR on this forum. The IDIOT who challenged MY take that Kareem just ANNIHILATED your Hakeem in their H2H's. YOU claimed that it was NOT Hakeem who guarded him. Of course, you were completely shocked to find out that there were NEWSPAPER articles that CLEARLY ripped the Houston coach for ALLOWING the ACTUAL BLOODSHED between the two...as well as a near COMPLETE YouTube footage in which Kareem dumped 40 points on Hakeem. BTW, that newspaper article mentioned that had Kareem played the full 48 minutes in his 46 point game against Hakeem (on 21-30 shooting), instead of only 37, that he likely would have set his CAREER HIGH, which was 55. Hell, that was being nice. Kareem was on pace for 60(!) in that game.

The SAME LIAR who obviously did not even see ANY of Hakeem's games. You foolishly challenged me when I claimed that Barkley outrebounded his TEAMMATE, Hakeem, by over FOUR rpg in their first season together.

And, just like in this thread...YOU challenged MY point that Gilmore averaged 23.7 ppg, on .677 shooting against Hakeem's Rockets (I never claimed that the two guarded each other, although the evidence appears convincing), and were, once again, DESTROYED.

[Big#50]

It's funny how you haven't backed up any of your stupid statements in this thread, just empty words..

Fact still remains that Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player compared to Duncan. Don't be butthurt over Hakeem abusing the Spurs, it's ok.

Do you mind to make a break down of the "empty stats", haha.. :facepalm
Those "empty stats" lead his team to the finals in '86 vs competition Duncan never faced. In fact, Duncan never beat a team even close as good as the '86 Lakers a la Jabbar, Worthy and Magic.
Lots of first round exits. Lots of them. Your opinions arent facts. All you say is this "Hakeem was a better offensive player amd defensive player." LoL cool facts. If Hakeem was that much better than TIM he would have won more than two rings. Hakeem was not a team player till late in his career. Face it, you really didn't watch Hakeem did ya?

[jlauber]

Haha, you b*tch every day on ISH about how horrible Wilt's HOF-teammates were but still you overrate Hakeem's teammates a la Maxwell and Thorpe all the time. :facepalm

And fact still remains that Hakeem actually won without all-stars in '94, Wilt could barely win with HOF:ers.. :facepalm

Hmmm...Hakeem won a title in '94, by beating a Knick team with LESS talent than he had...and in a league that was minus Jordan (whose Bulls went 55-27 without him, and nearly beat the Knicks in their seven game playoff series....the same Knick team that lost a close seven game series against the Rockets.)

Then, in '95, his Rockets, now with HOFer Clyde Drexler, beat an Orlando team with ONLY Shaq as a HOFer.

Meanwhile, in Wilt's 66-67 title run, he and his TWO HOF teammates, WAXED a 60-21 Celtic team that had SIX HOFers ( a near SWEEP BTW), then pounded a Warrior team that had Barry and Thurmond.

In his 71-72 title run, and with West blowing chunks, he led his Lakers thru Kareem's 63-19 Bucks, 4-2 (and winning 4 of the last 5 games)...and then they WIPED out a Knick team that had FIVE HOFers.

Of course, while Hakeem was facing 35 starting HOF centers in his 145 career playoff games, including a 39 year old Kareem in five...

Chamberlain faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thrumond in 17, Reed in 17, Bellamy in 11...and oh yes, a PRIME Kareem, in another 11.

[jlauber]

Lots of first round exits. Lots of them. Your opinions arent facts. All you say is this "Hakeem was a better offensive player amd defensive player." LoL cool facts. If Hakeem was that much better than TIM he would have won more than two rings. Hakeem was not a team player till late in his career. Face it, you really didn't watch Hakeem did ya?

I have already PROVEN that fact. And he certainly didn't watch Duncan ELEVATING his teams' to titles, either.

[Gifted Mind]

I've seen both millwad and jlauber promise that they would stop responding to each other on multiple occasions. :facepalm

Both Wilt Chamberlain and Hakeem Olajuwon are all-time greats. Let's leave it at that between you two.

[millwad]

I've seen both millwad and jlauber promise that they would stop responding to each other on multiple occasions. :facepalm

Both Wilt Chamberlain and Hakeem Olajuwon are all-time greats. Let's leave it at that between you two.

You're right, I was stupid to join this discussion to start with.

This was just another attempt of Jlauber to hi-jack his own therad to spam about Wilt while putting up nonsense about Hakeem and the response to Jlauber's posts about Hakeem can be seen in the first pages. Even a mod considered delete his bullshit.

[Big#50]

Tell me, what years should Hakeem have made it further with the teammates he had?

I've written arguments but you have not come up with anything but nonsense a la "Tim was a better scorer" but you couldn't even put an argument next to it.

I never said he was much better than Duncan but he was better, and you idiot, actual skillset doesn't always result in titles.

Duncan has more titles than Bird, does that mean that he's better? :facepalm
Yes, TIM is better than Bird. Hakeem king of empty stats. First round and out. But he had the dream shake. Cool. Enough about Hakeem. TIM is going to win a fifth title this season. If he plays the way he has been playing lately, it will only make my case much easier. Expect 18/10/2 not bad for a 36 year old man. Fifth title ftw.

[Whoah10115]

There is no reason for this thread to still be open. It's not about anything. It's just a bunch of people that make you feel bad for liking basketball.

[millwad]

There is no reason for this thread to still be open. It's not about anything. It's just a bunch of people that make you feel bad for liking basketball.

I'm sorry for fueling this thread, Jlauber pissed me off but I lost in the end due giving space to spam about Wilt (his only reason behind this thread).

I'm leaving this thread and I'd be glad if someone would delete my posts, I don't want to be associated with this pathetic discussion.

[Pointguard]

It's funny, you Wilt lovers keep bringing up stats and that's why you fail so often. It's not about how many points you score, as a Wilt fan you should know that considering that he didn't win anything at all when he was averaging 40+ points, Wilt won as a tied 2nd and 4th option on offense.
Please show me where I brought up stats? Wilt was a great defensive player so stats would be half of the story. It was an inside outside game. Wilt was the offensive keg. The primary man on offense the whole year in 67. Option is a matter of semantics. If you are the best player on the team, the team wins on your back.


Drob guarded Shaq most of the times when they faced the Lakers, not Duncan and Robinson did a great job. Parker is one of the best point guards of his era and even got himself a FMVP. Bowen is one of the best defenders of his era, 5 all-defense first team nominations talk for itself. Ginobili game speak for himself, if you want to be a clown and deny the impact Ginobili, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Parker was rarely ever considered a top 3 point guard in a year. He's a scoring point guard that rarely scored a lot. He was also a below par defender. And usually among the bottom in being a set up man.

In '03
D Rob a whopping 7.8 pppg 6.6rebs a little over a block a game.
Gin a whopping 9ppg 3.8 rebounds 3 assist.
Tony Parker 14.7 and 3.5 assist.

That's just plain garbage numbers.

Gin and Parker are both 20 and 17ppg players in the next two ring ceremonies. Neither gets a lot of assist but both are clutch. Bowen was a lock down defender.



Calling Ginobili below average in the regular season shows you never saw the guy play, pure nonsense. The 2 time all-star Ginobili also stepped up in the playoffs, where it actually counts and he has a huge part in the Spurs winning it all. And Manu is a HOF:er if you watch his overall career, no doubt.

Gin is a great step up player with an all around game. I give that to him. But please post a player with his numbers, in the current era that's in the Hall of Fame? That's all I ask.



And Parker is easily among the best point guards of his era, have you even seen him play? I can't believe that you actually would write something like that. The 4 time all-star Parker who even got himself a FMVP and he's been a top 10 on the top 10 mvp list twice, stop making a fool of yourself.
Parker on a Duncanless team would have trouble staying in the league. He's suited for SA and has had a few very good years. But... his defense isn't good, he isn't a setup man, would be hard to justify him as a scoring guard on most other teams. He's a hybrid without an overwhleming strength. He got on those all star teams because coaches vote for guys on championship teams. AI/Kidd/Nash/B Diddy/Billups/Marbury were almost always better in his early years and then were replaced by Dwill/C Paul et al later on.



You have your tongue in Jlauber's rectum 24/7 and still you misspell his name, haha.. Wow, would you call me out for stalking? My god, you're such a thug.

Its childish to say dumb stupid things. So what I misspelled his name. Its no big deal. My bad JLauber. But keep it up and say something stupid again.



Separation while not being able to win is not really important, Jordan had a huge separation in '87 when he scored like crazy but that doesn't mean that he was playing effective basketball or that he was at his best.

And no, if someone needs to grow up it's you, old ass man who got a crush on a dead basketball player who played 40 years ago and who you never saw play.
Where is the crush? I state my opinions and move on. You obsess, stalk, stay, don't move, gravitate, refute, stick, get stuck and go totally nuts in these threads. And you do it as a hater. Which is far worse than somebody who likes something. Hate is a negative emotion. The only backward emotion in the universe.



First you spam about separation and how amazing and great Wilt was and then when he didn't have the same separation and shrunk to the 4th option while winning he suddenly doesn't need separation. Stop being a hypocrite, you can't have it both ways, KID.
If you can do what nobody else can do you stand alone. Wilt had different facets to his game. If you set a standard that nobody can reach decades later you have raised a bar of achievement. That within itselt carries weight. Guys today dream of that achievement. It will always stick. But it was one of many standards Wilt had set. He probably had block records the year he won. He more than likely has quadruple double records that year as well. He was multifaceted. And he was different things at different times but he was always doing several things at the highest level. Winning isn't everything in life or basketball. How you do things has a lot of weight.



For fukk sake, I never said that Wilt wasn't important. And abroad? No one gives a damn about Wilt abroad. Oh, so it's Hakeem's fault that the big men moved away from the basket due rule changes.

If you're going to talk about influential, impact and impression then I guess Mikan should be ranked higher than Hakeem as well.. That's not even important to me, I judge based on skillset, winning and competition.

Rule changes didn't move players away from the basket - only players can do that. The lack of fundamentals and basic teachings of the game changed and got away from its optimal advantages.

GOAT entails the whole package. Yeah Mikan was real important to the game overall, yes he was. Like I said you seem more interested in GOAT player which is a bit different.

[Horatio33]

Hakeem has to be the most overrated player on ISH. Lots of empty stats early in his career.

The irony a Wilt and Robinson troll going on about empty stats. And I've been a Spurs fan since 1995!

[jlauber]

The irony a Wilt and Robinson troll going on about empty stats. And I've been a Spurs fan since 1995!

Empty stats...like taking a last place team to a 49-26 record in his rookie season. Like taking that same basic roster two years later, only older and even more inept, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers. Or taking the same team that had gone 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. Or taking a 40-40 Sixer team, that had gone 34-46 the year before they acquired him, past the 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team that was at it's absolute peak. Or leading his Sixers to the best record in the league three straight seasons, including a 68-13 season, and in a year in which they trashed the greatest dynasty in modern major (USA) professional team sports. Or then taking his Laker teams to four finals in his five seasons there (and a WCF's in the other season...and without BOTH Baylor and West.) And making every team he joined an instant power, and every team he left, much worse.

TWELVE Conference Finals. Six division titles. Six Conference titles. Six trips to the Finals. Four seasons with the best record in the league. Four seasons with 60+ wins, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13 (and won 33 straight games.) And anchoring two dominant world championship teams.

Yep...a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked."

[millwad]

Empty stats...like taking a last place team to a 49-26 record in his rookie season. Like taking that same basic roster two years later, only older and even more inept, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers. Or taking the same team that had gone 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. Or taking a 40-40 Sixer team, that had gone 34-46 the year before they acquired him, past the 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team that was at it's absolute peak. Or leading his Sixers to the best record in the league three straight seasons, including a 68-13 season, and in a year in which they trashed the greatest dynasty in modern major (USA) professional team sports. Or then taking his Laker teams to four finals in his five seasons there (and a WCF's in the other season...and without BOTH Baylor and West.) And making every team he joined an instant power, and every team he left, much worse.

TWELVE Conference Finals. Six division titles. Six Conference titles. Six trips to the Finals. Four seasons with the best record in the league. Four seasons with 60+ wins, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13 (and won 33 straight games.) And anchoring two dominant world championship teams.

Yep...a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked."

His 45 point average in '63 along with 24 rebounds and 3 assists per game on a team that won pathetic 31 games and lost 49 games talks for itself.

"B-b-but his teammates where so bad:cry:" - Jlauber

EMPTY STATS.. :facepalm
:roll: :roll: :roll:

CRY US AS A RIVER, Jbieber.

Now start another thread where you get mocked for your "knowledge" and where you end up hi-jacking it so you can spam your daily dose of Wilt love..

[jlauber]

His 45 point average in '63 along with 24 rebounds and 3 assists per game on a team that won pathetic 31 games and lost 49 games talks for itself.

"B-b-but his teammates where so bad:cry:" - Jlauber

EMPTY STATS.. :facepalm
:roll: :roll: :roll:

CRY US AS A RIVER, Jbieber.

Yep...instead of basically packing it in, like Kareem did in his 75-76 season with an average Laker roster...Chamberlain did all he could to keep that HORRIBLE roster in their games that season.

He LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, and setting a FG% record.

BTW, a couple of years later, in 65-66, he LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and setting a FG% record, on a Sixer team that had the BEST RECORD in the league.

[millwad]

Yep...instead of basically packing it in, like Kareem did in his 75-76 season with an average Laker roster...Chamberlain did all he could to keep that HORRIBLE roster in their games that season.

He LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, and setting a FG% record.

BTW, a couple of years later, in 65-66, he LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and setting a FG% record, on a Sixer team that had the BEST RECORD in the league.

And still couldn't win 'til he became a tied 2nd and fourth option on offense, empty stats, Jlauber. Wilt's statpadding is the true definition of empty stats.

Haha, a 31 win season.. :facepalm

Cry us as a river.

[millwad]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/3427465_o.gif