Who is your top 5 biggest chokers among the All-Time Greats?

[1987_Lakers]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron has to be #1 right now. You kidding me?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

He scored 0 clutch points (under 5 min, within 5 pts) in the 2011 Finals. ZERO points on 0-7 FG.

[jlauber]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)

One of the most INACCURATE, if not THE most INACCURATE comment EVER posted on this forum.

Please, PROVE to me how Wilt "choked." And be prepared to show how his OPPOSING CENTERS fared against him in those "choke jobs."

If anything LARRY BIRD and KAREEM "choked" FAR more often than Wilt ever did.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Bandito]

Lebron might be the biggest of all judging by last year finals alone.

[Deuce Bigalow]

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

:applause:
I agree. Monumental choke artist.

[Scholar]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

Getting beaten by an MJ-led Bulls squad in the NBA Finals doesn't automatically translate to "never delivered when it mattered the most."

[jlauber]

Here is the CONDENSED version of Wilt in the post-season...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while shooting .545 himself (Wilt shot 18-33 in those two games, while Kareem shot a miserable 23-60.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Deuce Bigalow]

One of the most INACCURATE, if not THE most INACCURATE comment EVER posted on this forum.

Please, PROVE to me how Wilt "choked." And be prepared to show how his OPPOSING CENTERS fared against him in those "choke jobs."

If anything LARRY BIRD and KAREEM "choked" FAR more often than Wilt ever did.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
His coach in game 7 of the NBA Finals sat him out in the final 5 minutes :roll:
Don't you want the "most dominant" player in the game? :oldlol:
No great gets benched in the final 5 minutes of a game 7 none the less a finals game except Wilt. He wilted in the clutch, and his coach knew it.

[jlauber]

Here again, I could post CHOKE JOB AFTER CHOKE JOB by BIRD and KAREEM, too.

BOTH were FAR greater CHOKE ARTISTS than Chamberlain EVER was.

[jlauber]

His coach in game 7 of the NBA Finals sat him out in the final 5 minutes :roll:
Don't you want the "most dominant" player in the game? :oldlol:
No great gets benched in the final 5 minutes of a game 7 none the less a finals game except Wilt. He wilted in the clutch, and his coach knew it.

Oh and BTW, his COACH was IMMEDIATELY FIRED after that coaching debacle, too.

[MichaelCheazley]

Here again, I could post CHOKE JOB AFTER CHOKE JOB by BIRD and KAREEM, too.

BOTH were FAR greater CHOKE ARTISTS than Chamberlain EVER was.
Yet they both have more championships. Just goes to show how much better they are. They can choke so much yet are able to win much more than the legendary wilt. Doing so without a 50' vertical, olympic level track speed and endurance and also the fighting ability that surpasses anyone alive at the time. And he also was able to lift a shit lot of weights and bang a shit lot of broads(THERE WERE ACTUAL EYE WITNESSES!). Yet with all those attributes all he has accomplished are meaningless trivial stats, of which are the only cure to your biggest rival around, not millwad, erectile dysfunction. Gtfo delusional homer.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Here again, I could post CHOKE JOB AFTER CHOKE JOB by BIRD and KAREEM, too.

BOTH were FAR greater CHOKE ARTISTS than Chamberlain EVER was.
:facepalm
Take your pills old man, take your pills.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yet they both have more championships. Just goes to show how much better they are. They can choke so much yet are able to win much more than the legendary wilt.
And shot better than 40% from the freethrow line
And had a winning record in the Finals
And their coaches never benched them in the last 5 minutes of a Playoff game

[jlauber]

Yet they both have more championships. Just goes to show how much better they are. They can choke so much yet are able to win much more than the legendary wilt.

Had Wilt had the good fortune to be paired with MAGIC for 10 seasons, I suspect that he would have EASILY surpassed BOTH in career rings.

[MichaelCheazley]

Had Wilt had the good fortune to be paired with MAGIC for 10 seasons, I suspect that he would have EASILY surpassed BOTH in career rings.


As previously stated :



Yet they both have more championships. Just goes to show how much better they are. They can choke so much yet are able to win much more than the legendary wilt. Doing so without a 50' vertical, olympic level track speed and endurance and also the fighting ability that surpasses anyone alive at the time. And he also was able to lift a shit lot of weights and bang a shit lot of broads(THERE WERE ACTUAL EYE WITNESSES!). Yet with all those attributes all he has accomplished are meaningless trivial stats, of which are the only cure to your biggest rival around, not millwad, erectile dysfunction. Gtfo delusional homer.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Had Wilt had the good fortune to be paired with MAGIC for 10 seasons, I suspect that he would have EASILY surpassed BOTH in career rings.
He had Jerry West. Who at the time was the greatest guard in the game. And what did he do? Win 1 ring :oldlol:

Heck, West averaged 38 ppg in a Finals series and had a 42/13/12 game 7 yet Wilt still lost. The dude was just a choker.

[jlauber]

He had Jerry West. Who at the time was the greatest guard in the game. And what did he do? Win 1 ring :oldlol:

Heck, West averaged 38 ppg in a Finals series and had a 42/13/12 game 7 yet Wilt still lost. The dude was just a choker.

Where was West in game seven of the '70 Finals?

Where was West in the ENTIRE '71 playoffs?

And how about West in the year in which he finally got that ring (71-72)? He shot .376 in the entire post-season, and an even worse .325 in the Finals. Oh, the same post-season that Chamberlain cut Kareem down in the WCF's, and then won the FMVP with a clinching game five performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks.

And then in their last Finals together in 72-73? West shot .442 in that Finals, which included a clinching loss performance of 12 points on 5-17 shooting (meanwhile, Wilt in that game, scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.)

[Celtic_Pride]

Lebron right there on top!

Last years performance was inexcusable

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where was West in game seven of the '70 Finals?

Where was West in the ENTIRE '71 playoffs?

And how about West in the year in which he finally got that ring (71-72)? He shot .376 in the entire post-season, and an even worse .325 in the Finals. Oh, the same post-season that Chamberlain cut Kareem down in the WCF's, and then won the FMVP with a clinching game five performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks.

And then in their last Finals together in 72-73? West shot .442 in that Finals, which included a clinching loss performance of 12 points on 5-17 shooting (meanwhile, Wilt in that game, scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.)
Tell me what was Wilt's numbers in '69

West - 38 ppg, 42/13/12 game 7
Wilt? benched in final 5 minutes of game 7

[Heavincent]

1.) Lebron

'nuff said.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lebron has to be #1 right now. You kidding me?


1.) Lebron

'nuff said.

As of now, nobody will ever be a bigger choker than Karl Malone.

[La Frescobaldi]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)

The choking bit about Chamberlain really gives me a lot of aggro:

1962 After Wilt sinks 2 clutch free throws and then finishes 3 the hard way, Red Auerbach ADMITS the Celtics timekeeper cheats the Warriors out of the last play:
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/03/25/the-1962-season-philly-vs-boston-wilt-vs-russell-barstools-vs-jungle-jim/

1965 Chamberlain scores the last 8 points including 2 free throws of the Havlicek stole the ball game.... Bill Russell chokes on the inbounds pass.... Hal Greer throws away the inbounds pass

1966 Coach Dolph Schayes calls timeouts while his team is running wide open fast breaks; Hal Greer repeats his inbound pass throwaways, this time by failing to get the ball inbounds at all; Mendy Rudolph calls a goaltend to cost the last game.

1968 The Sixers implode with injuries when Billy Cunningham breaks his arm in 3 places in the playoffs running into Phil Jackson against the Knicks, Chet Walker, Hal Greer & Wali Jones all have hamstring pulls in the Eastern Division Finals

1970 Chamberlain comes back from a Patella injury in time for the playoffs and is miraculously able to perform at a "Chamberlain level" for 3 of the Finals games.

1971 Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, and Keith Erickson miss the playoffs with injuries.

I don't get the choking bit on that guy, sorry.
*************************************

Elvin Hayes was even worse than what you listed off, but James is still worse. LeBron quit on Shaq, who was actually doing great against the Celtics, as KG said often - and that had to be a factor in the Celtics picking up that old man the next season

Elgin Baylor should be on this list. He was Brick City in 69 & 70.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The choking bit about Chamberlain really gives me a lot of aggro:

1962 After Wilt sinks 2 clutch free throws and then finishes 3 the hard way, Red Auerbach ADMITS the Celtics timekeeper cheats the Warriors out of the last play:
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/03/25/the-1962-season-philly-vs-boston-wilt-vs-russell-barstools-vs-jungle-jim/

1965 Chamberlain scores the last 8 points of the Havlicek stole the ball game.... Bill Russell chokes on the inbounds pass.... Hal Greer throws away the inbounds pass

1966 Coach Dolph Schayes calls timeouts while his team is running wide open fast breaks; Hal Greer repeats his inbound pass throwaways, this time by failing to get the ball inbounds at all; Mendy Rudolph calls a goaltend to cost the last game.

1968 The Sixers implode with injuries when Billy Cunningham breaks his arm in 3 places in the playoffs running into Phil Jackson against the Knicks, Chet Walker, Hal Greer & Wali Jones all have hamstring pulls in the Eastern Division Finals

1970 Chamberlain comes back from a Patella injury in time for the playoffs and is miraculously able to perform at a "Chamberlain level" for 3 of the Finals games.

1971 Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, and Keith Erickson miss the playoffs with injuries.

I don't get the choking bit on that guy, sorry.
*************************************

Elvin Hayes was even worse than what you listed off, but James is still worse. LeBron quit on Shaq, who was actually doing great against the Celtics, as KG said often - and that had to be a factor in the Celtics picking up that old man the next season

Elgin Baylor should be on this list. He was Brick City in 69 & 70.
Baylor be on the list. But not Wilt

LOLOLOL

[PickernRoller]

How can Lebron be there? He ain't an all-time great....hit me up when he gets some rings.

[Xiao Yao You]

Getting beaten by an MJ-led Bulls squad in the NBA Finals doesn't automatically translate to "never delivered when it mattered the most."

It does when you play the worst ball of your career in the process.

[Alamo]

Lebron is an all time great? Interesting

[FrankTony]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)

Where's Kobe and his ultimate fails in the Finals ? Pathetic list without Kobe tbh :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

Lebron is an all time great? Interesting

What?

He certainly is.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lebron is an all time great? Interesting

All Time Great choke Artists that is, now seriosuly lebron has nothing to do on that list.

[Legends66NBA7]

All Time Great choke Artists that is, now seriosuly lebron has nothing to do on that list.

Yeah right.

[lebeast666]

So LeBron is an all-time great already...? And his career is not even over...? :roll:

:facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

Only retards believe LeBron isn't an all-time great and I don't even like the guy.

[pauk]

Lebron has to be #1 right now. You kidding me?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

He scored 0 clutch points (under 5 min, within 5 pts) in the 2011 Finals. ZERO points on 0-7 FG.

Its 1 series.......... you can make even Jordan look like the biggest choker ever based on 1 series....

[pauk]

No... but seriously...

KOBE BRYANT should be #1....... at least when it comes to playoffs....

37-97 .360% in game 7's
38-108 .352% in title winning games
41% in 37 finals games
66-163 .400% to win finals mvp.. lowest fg% for any Finals MVP
14-56 .250% game winning shots
yup
Kobe

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-GWinners-Playoffs.png


compare that to Lebron:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GWinners-Playoffs.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-Clutch.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg











Most overrated "clutch" player in NBA history...... and probably the most overrated player ever.... Kobrick Cryant

[pauk]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)


So......... you basically ignore what he has DONE HIS ENTIRE CAREER (and even all those series before the Finals last year where he was ridicilously clutch, to the point where even Pippen thought it was safe to say "Lebron is the greatest player of all time, sorry Mike").... because he couldnt be a clutch god in 1 god damn series??????????????????????? :facepalm

You either are a secret Lebron hater with an obvious agenda or truly dont know wtf you are talking about....

[1987_Lakers]

So......... you basically ignore what he has DONE HIS ENTIRE CAREER (and all those series before the Finals last year).... because he couldnt be a clutch god in 1 god damn series??????????????????????? :facepalm

Are we just going to ignore that he was so scared in last years Finals that he didn't want no part of the game when it hit the 4th quarter? The biggest series of your career and you shy away from the moment when you feel the pressure?:biggums:

http://jeffzelaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-missing-poster.jpg

[pauk]

1987_Lakers....

If Lebron is not clutch.... then your man Kobe for sure is even worse in that department.... as evident of facts such as those above you...

Kobe has made less gamewinners on more attempts in season or in playoffs since Lebron came in at 2004.... and during his career has been SHRINKING not only in clutch efficiency but on scoring/production efficiency in Playoffs while Lebron has been increasing his level of play, sometimes to a dramatical level....

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe doesn't belong on this list. And he's certinally not a bigger choker than Karl Malone.

NOBODY... as of the moment... has been a bigger choker than Karl Malone, period.

[LoneyROY7]

And yet, despite pauk's plethora of useless stats...Kobe has 5 championship rings.

How many does LeBron have again?

[1987_Lakers]

The difference between Kobe & LeBron is Kobe isn't afraid to take those shots, LeBron is. It's weird, I always saw LeBron as a clutch player, specifically from 2006-2009. His last season in Cleveland was the year when I started to see that he had problems in the clutch.

Kobe telling LeBron to grow a sack...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-B_l1bEos

[lilblingy]

It's less of a choke if you make an attempt but being completely passive in the final moments of the biggest stage of your career? Choking at its best. what's the point being a try hard on your way to the finals if you're just going to give the championship away by not even trying when you're there? complete choker.

[pauk]

And yet, despite pauk's plethora of useless stats...Kobe has 5 championship rings.

How many does LeBron have again?

There goes that ring excuse again....

Kobe is not the best anymore... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!
Kobe is declining..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!
Kobe is not clutch as they say..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!
Kobe rejped somebody..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzzz!!
Kobe has lost his Fro...... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzz!!!
Kobe is injured.... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!1111one!!!

What does a team accomplishment have ANYTHING to do with individual performance when the game is on the line? wtf!!

Reggie Miller for example had 0 rings and 99.9% players of all time only wished they were as clutch as him.... Actually, Reggie was often the most clutch player in the NBA.... and NOBODY called him the best player in the NBA... not even Top 5 and in some cases not even Top 10.........

[pauk]

The difference between Kobe & LeBron is Kobe isn't afraid to take those shots, LeBron is. It's weird, I always saw LeBron as a clutch player, specifically from 2006-2009. His last season in Cleveland was the year when I started to see that he had problems in the clutch.

Kobe telling LeBron to grow a sack...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-B_l1bEos

Kobrick is a selfish douchebag and only wished that Lebron somebody so much better than Kobrick and so much more unselfish than Kobrick wanted to be like Kobrick and do stuff like this in the clutch:

http://www.gifsoup.com/view6/2423850/selfish-kobe-o.gif

[chazzy]

Reggie Miller for example had 0 rings and 99.9% players of all time only wished they were as clutch as him.... Actually, Reggie was often the most clutch player in the NBA.... and NOBODY called him the best player in the NBA... not even Top 5 and in some cases not even Top 10.........
Who cares about that "one dimensional skeletor" :D

[LoneyROY7]

There goes that ring excuse again....

Kobe is not the best anymore... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!
Kobe is declining..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!
Kobe is not clutch as they say..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!
Kobe rejped somebody..... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzzz!!
Kobe has lost his Fro...... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzz!!!
Kobe is injured.... but but but Kobe has 5 ringzzz!!!1111one!!!

What does a team accomplishment have ANYTHING to do with individual performance when the game is on the line? wtf!!

Reggie Miller for example had 0 rings and 99.9% players of all time only wished they were as clutch as him.... Actually, Reggie was often the most clutch player in the NBA.... and NOBODY called him the best player in the NBA... not even Top 5 and in some cases not even Top 10.........

So, if championships are only a team accomplishment and have nothing to do with individual performance, then why did you post this?


...stop being so butthurt about Lebrons 3rd MVP... i couldnt care less, all he needs is a Championship...

Why would he NEED it? :confusedshrug:

[Horatio33]

Where was West in game seven of the '70 Finals?

Where was West in the ENTIRE '71 playoffs?

And how about West in the year in which he finally got that ring (71-72)? He shot .376 in the entire post-season, and an even worse .325 in the Finals. Oh, the same post-season that Chamberlain cut Kareem down in the WCF's, and then won the FMVP with a clinching game five performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks.

And then in their last Finals together in 72-73? West shot .442 in that Finals, which included a clinching loss performance of 12 points on 5-17 shooting (meanwhile, Wilt in that game, scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.)

West had sprained thumbs in that series. Wilt wasn't injured enough that in game six he had 45 and 27 but disappeared in game 7 against a guy on one leg and 6-8 Debusheere.

[Odinn]

I'm not gonna list 5 names but winning clears up choke-job history.

I mean if this q would be asked before 2010-11 season, Nowitzki would be probably one of most mentioned names.

Kobe had choke jobs twice in the NBA Finals (both of them were almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 Finals) and nobody mentioned him. Nobody has mentioned Nowitzki yet. If LeBron gets a (well-deserved) ring, he won't be in this debate probably. I think active players should be left outside in this debate.

[CardiacKemba]

1.) Lebron

'nuff said.

LeBron will be no.1 if he never wins a ring in the rest of career. Being at about halfway through his career however, it's idiotic to put him at number 1. He has time to redeem things, for now. I honestly don't know how some people who claim to be such big basketball followers to be so narrow minded and hate on someone so badly. The LeBron V Kobe fans are embarassing. Surely you have more important things to in your life to do? Nothing wrong with banter back and forth, but is it honestly necessary to log onto an online forum and post negative threads/posts about a person EVERY single day? :coleman:

[OldSchoolBBall]

So LeBron is an all-time great already...? And his career is not even over...? :roll:

:facepalm

Umm, people considered guys like Bird/MJ/Magic/Barkley/SHaq/DRob all time greats 9 years into their career.

[NumberSix]

Jerry West? :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

1. Karl Malone (The mail man never delivered when it mattered the most)

2. Elvin Hayes (In the '78 Finals against Seattle, Hayes scored 133 points in the first six games, but only 19 of those came in the fourth quarter, a statistic that became the key subplot of that Finals. In Game 7 in Seattle, Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with eight minutes remaining.)

3. LeBron James (For Now. His performance last year in the Finals is inexcusable)

4. Wilt Chamberlain (I beg you jlauber don't spam my thread with your long essays.)

5. David Robinson (His mid 90's teams usually dominated the season then underachieved in the postseason, his numbers dropped too.)

What's your definition of choke? Is it getting cold in 4th quarters and looking lost and confused like Lebron James? Wilt is not with out his flaws, but he is not one of those things - below is what he was and why he should not be in this discussion:

A.) Wilt was "Impossible" to coach - 8 of his 14 seasons were played with an assortment of your classic Mike Brown's and Van Gundy's and Wilt was among the first NBA superstars with an ego like Kobe's, Shaq's, and Dwight's - his teams during those seasons had horrible chemistry and Wilt was uncooperative - poisonous almost. Yet with all that being said, he still never "didn't show up in 4th quarters" etc. He just wasn't a good team player without a good coach. That is a legitimate criticism.

B.) Of all the teams in the 60's, only 1 team beat the Boston Celtics. Wilt and the Philadelphia 76ers. Baylor + West, Robertson + Lucas... two teams with the biggest "1-2" punches in the NBA, all with a combined production equal too or superior to one "Wilt Chamberlain" and they all won 0 rings in the 1960's - but Wilt is a top 5 choker and they aren't?

C.) Wilt eventually had 3 coaches in his career who were able to gain his respect and work with him (a-la Phil Jackson type coaches who knew how to deal with big-time stars)

*Frank McGuire - who earned Wilt's respect his sophomore year at Kansas University when his NCU team beat Wilt's Jayhawks in the NCAA tournament handing Wilt his most devastating (on a personal level) loss in his basketball career. He preached that his teammates feed Wilt the ball due to Wilt's superior fg% - he actually told Wilt to score 50ppg.
1961-62 with the Philadelphia Warriors - ECF 7 games

*Alex Hannum - who earned Wilt's respect in 1963-64 after he was ready to fist-fight Wilt in the locker room. He preached that Wilt score less and facilitate more - it produced results and after the near-fight and wins being produced Hannum got through to Wilt, and the team results showed.
1963-64 with the San Francisco Warriors - WC Champs
1966-67 with the Philadelphia 76ers - NBA Champs (record smashers)
1967-68 with the Philadelphia 76ers - ECF 7 games

*Bill Sharman - he coached Wilt later in Wilt's career so Wilt was already a little softer, but he did things like take Wilt out to eat and talk with Wilt instead of order him around, he got Wilt to accept ideas like shoot arounds for practice and his coaching philosophy was in-part, using Wilt's own ideas. Such as Wilt's idea to be a defensive anchor in the mold of Bill Russell since the Lakers already had a decent set of scorers. It was his approach to Wilt to work "with" him instead of on top of him that made the teams work.
1971-72 with the Los Angeles Lakers - NBA Champs (record smashers)
1972-73 with the Los Angeles Lakers - WC Champs

Those 6 seasons were the only ones of his entire career with coaches that could handle a big-ego type of superstar. In those 6 seasons Wilt's teams had a combined .697 winning percentage, won 2 NBA titles in record smashing fashion on two of the greatest teams in NBA history, 3 Conference titles, and made it to 7 games in the Conference Finals the remaining 3 times.

If Kobe doesn't win a ring this year with Mike Brown does that make him a choker? People who don't understand Wilt's career and how it went down off of the stat sheet and minus the myths that have formed are always going to call Wilt a choker w/o having a clue what his actual flaws were. He never choked, he was never a Lebron. He was simply the specific type of top tier superstar with an ego the size of his talent, just like many superstars today - he needed coaches he could respect or else he was a moody loose cannon. Secondary to that, he also needed capable and healthy teammates once he finally had the coaches that got his attention. When he had those things and they all lined up together, his teams didn't just win a ring, they smashed NBA records and are top teams all-time. Hakeem won just as many rings as Wilt, and yet his teams still never smashed any records, and they actually never beat Jordan's "Bulls Dynasty" while Wilt actually beat the "Celtics Dynasty" so what's his excuse for not being on this list? A f*cking stat sheet? (BTW I'm NOT hating on Hakeem I'm making a definitive point here at how ridiculous this crap sounds.) The hate for Wilt on this on this thread is just plain stupid.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No... but seriously...

KOBE BRYANT should be #1....... at least when it comes to playoffs....

37-97 .360% in game 7's
38-108 .352% in title winning games
41% in 37 finals games
66-163 .400% to win finals mvp.. lowest fg% for any Finals MVP
14-56 .250% game winning shots
yup
Kobe

Most overrated "clutch" player in NBA history...... and probably the most overrated player ever.... Kobrick Cryant
http://i52.tinypic.com/24ya73s.jpg

[Harison]

LeBron will be no.1 if he never wins a ring in the rest of career. Being at about halfway through his career however, it's idiotic to put him at number 1. He has time to redeem things, for now. I honestly don't know how some people who claim to be such big basketball followers to be so narrow minded and hate on someone so badly. The LeBron V Kobe fans are embarassing. Surely you have more important things to in your life to do? Nothing wrong with banter back and forth, but is it honestly necessary to log onto an online forum and post negative threads/posts about a person EVERY single day? :coleman:

Correct. How was Dirk seen after 2006? He was bashed even worse than Lebron is now, and yet one great run and Dirk is redeemed. Same will happen with Lebron, if he just plays in the Finals on the same level as his several mind-boggling Playoffs series. He just has to overcome some mental block, or whatever is the reason of his disappearance acts.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not gonna list 5 names but winning clears up choke-job history.

I mean if this q would be asked before 2010-11 season, Nowitzki would be probably one of most mentioned names.

Kobe had choke jobs twice in the NBA Finals (both of them were almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 Finals) and nobody mentioned him. Nobody has mentioned Nowitzki yet. If LeBron gets a (well-deserved) ring, he won't be in this debate probably. I think active players should be left outside in this debate.

Why would anyone mention Dirk? He's been arguably the most clutch player of his era.

[Odinn]

Why would anyone mention Dirk? He's been arguably the most clutch player of his era.
Did I say Dirk should be mentioned? Why are you so sensitive about him?

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'm not gonna list 5 names but winning clears up choke-job history.

I mean if this q would be asked before 2010-11 season, Nowitzki would be probably one of most mentioned names.

Kobe had choke jobs twice in the NBA Finals (both of them were almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 Finals) and nobody mentioned him. Nobody has mentioned Nowitzki yet. If LeBron gets a (well-deserved) ring, he won't be in this debate probably. I think active players should be left outside in this debate.
Kobe played bad in the 2004 Finals but he was clutch. The only game that came down to the wire was game 2 which he nailed the gametying jumper with 2.1 seconds left that send it to OT where he scored 4 more points in the OT.
The only time he choked was in one of the games in the '08 Finals, game 4. It was just one game though since he was clutch in game 3 and 5, the other games that came down to the wire.

[BlackVVaves]

I'm not gonna list 5 names but winning clears up choke-job history.

I mean if this q would be asked before 2010-11 season, Nowitzki would be probably one of most mentioned names.

Kobe had choke jobs twice in the NBA Finals (both of them were almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 Finals) and nobody mentioned him. Nobody has mentioned Nowitzki yet. If LeBron gets a (well-deserved) ring, he won't be in this debate probably. I think active players should be left outside in this debate.

No current player has had as bad of a series in the Finals as Lebron did. This is not even debatable, the guy was human trash, and scared like a little Christian boy visiting the church for a Sunday service that he's been sodomized in by the pastor. Not only did he not take shots, but he missed the shots he DID take. And had literally NO impact in the critical moments of the latter part of the finals. One of the Kobe chokejobs you're referring to, Kobe grabbed double digit rebounds, in a game that literally came down to: rebounding, Ray Allen's IMMENSE choke job, and free throws.

ONE ring isn't going to eliminate the last 4 years of Lebron's crunch time performances. Not after it took him playing with TWO other top 10 players over the last 5 years to get it. Maybe you're trying to fool yourself, because you're certainly not fooling any of us.

Still, I expect Lebron to get 2-3 rings before his career is over. So using him, or anyone that is still playing right now, is useless. You have to look at players who have laid their legacy down already.

For that, the two top players that come to mind from recent memory are Ewing (though I am not as hard on him as others because he literally did it himself all those years) and Karl Malone.

[Horatio33]

Kobe played bad in the 2004 Finals but he was clutch. The only game that came down to the wire was game 2 which he nailed the gametying jumper with 2.1 seconds left that send it to OT where he scored 4 more points in the OT.
The only time he choked was in one of the games in the '08 Finals, game 4. It was just one game though since he was clutch in game 3 and 5, the other games that came down to the wire.

Game 2 09 finals Kobe went 1 on 4 got his shot blocked by Hedo when he had four teammates open.

[ashlar]

:roll: jlauber

[Deuce Bigalow]

Game 2 09 finals Kobe went 1 on 4 got his shot blocked by Hedo when he had four teammates open.
4th Quarter
11 points
2-5 FG
7-8 FT

Overtime
2 points
1-2 FG

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=290607013&period=4

[1987_Lakers]

Maybe LeBron will prove me wrong this postseason. We will have to wait.

[Stringer Bell]

Was the Failman THAT bad of a choker?

He had some screw-ups, but overall was not some poor postseason performer.

[Rocketswin2013]

Maybe LeBron will prove me wrong this postseason. We will have to wait.
He did

[kshutts1]

Was the Failman THAT bad of a choker?

He had some screw-ups, but overall was not some poor postseason performer.
Any more threads from two years ago you want to bump?

But Wilt was the biggest choker. Pretty sure he was 7'1? 275 lbs? Towers over Karl, larger than Hayes...

[riseagainst]

Any more threads from two years ago you want to bump?

But Wilt was the biggest choker. Pretty sure he was 7'1? 275 lbs? Towers over Karl, larger than Hayes...

pretty much. Scoring numbers and percentages greatly dipped as the playoffs went deeper and deeper. He just didn't have that IT factor. He was much more focused into dipping it into women.

[Jlamb47]

Lebron is number 1
2011 with 2 superstars

[Real14]

1. LeBron James
























2.THA OTHER CHOKERS.

[Stringer Bell]

Any more threads from two years ago you want to bump?


Probably some more, there's a lot of good old threads with a lot of responses that's better to bump than instead of starting a new one.



But Wilt was the biggest choker. Pretty sure he was 7'1? 275 lbs? Towers over Karl, larger than Hayes...

Yeah he is said to be a legit 7'1, not one of those "let's add 2-3 inches to their height" cases.

A freak of nature too, setting track records in college as well as basketball.

[Big#50]

No such a thing as a chker among the elite. Players underperformed at times though.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wilt
Lebron
TMac
Steve Nash

[played0ut]

Not Wilt.

Please consider:

During regular season he'd shoot monstrous numbers. 50/25 or whatever.


>That's against relatively 'smaller', less athletic players.


During the Playoffs he plays against HOF centers-- centers who would IMO be era transcendent.

He's playing against HOF Centers-- of course his numbers would go down. And they went down to 'realistic' numbers he'd get if he played against modern centers, no? :D

tl;dr?

During regular season it's Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

In playoff it turns into Shaq vs. Olajuwon. :D

[Psileas]

Not Wilt.

Please consider:

During regular season he'd shoot monstrous numbers. 50/25 or whatever.


>That's against relatively 'smaller', less athletic players.


During the Playoffs he plays against HOF centers-- centers who would IMO be era transcendent.

He's playing against HOF Centers-- of course his numbers would go down. And they went down to 'realistic' numbers he'd get if he played against modern centers, no? :D

tl;dr?

During regular season it's Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

In playoff it turns into Shaq vs. Olajuwon. :D

Last time I checked, this past 1.5 decade is the last one that comes to mind when it comes to center quality, so, from that point, no. Total rebounds and FGA's (for early Wilt) are probably the only stats of his era that would go down and be more "realistic" today, but not due to competition.

As for your analogy, let's say that during regular season it's Shaq vs "average center of Shaq's era" and in the playoffs, we have "Shaq vs prime Olajuwon or Shaq vs Duncan (a few times even both), but year after year, and with less overall rounds to pad his averages".

[dubeta]

Kobe's last 4 years have made him #1 on this list

Only issue is whether or not he's an "All Time Great" which is a criteria to be on this list

Since his stans try and argue that he is, lets look at his last 5 years

2010: 6-24 choke job and shoots 40% in the series

2011: Swept even with homecourt advantage, choked the last 2 games

2012: Didnt score the last 2 minutes in the last 3 games against OKC. Underrated choke

2013: Missed the playoffs with Dwight, Gasol, Nash, Artest. An all star dream team. After he went down, Gasol and Dwight had to carry the Lakers to the playoffs

2014: Again misses the playoffs, quits on his team and takes the year off

#1 without doubt

[LAZERUSS]

Not Wilt.

Please consider:

During regular season he'd shoot monstrous numbers. 50/25 or whatever.


>That's against relatively 'smaller', less athletic players.


During the Playoffs he plays against HOF centers-- centers who would IMO be era transcendent.

He's playing against HOF Centers-- of course his numbers would go down. And they went down to 'realistic' numbers he'd get if he played against modern centers, no? :D

tl;dr?

During regular season it's Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

In playoff it turns into Shaq vs. Olajuwon. :D

Shaq's scoring and FG% efficiency dropped considerably in his five post-season series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04 (and in his really only exceptional series, in '04, Robinson had retired.)

Same with MJ in his four playoff series against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and the only series in which he played close to his regular season numbers came against the '91 Pistons, who were starting their decline.)

A peak Kareem averaged 33 ppg on a .563 FG% against the NBA from '71 thru '73. Against Thurmond and Wilt in his five post-season series in that same span... 27 ppg on a ... .456 FG%.


And as Psileas pointed out, Chamberlain was not only facing the Celtic Dynasty in EIGHT of his post-seasons, he was usually battling them in his first or second round. Then add the fact that Wilt also battled a prime Thurmond in three more playoff series (just ask KAJ about Nate), as well as Reed in two, and Bellamy in two.


For the record...Wilt the "choker" has the third highest ppg average among the GOAT candidates in his "must-win" games, at 31.1 ppg (just behind Lebron's 31.9 and MJ's 31.3)...and he did so while shooting .540 in those games, in post-seasons that shot about .435 on average, to go along with 26.4 rpg. In fact, Wilt exceeded his regular season scoring average in that same span, as well as his rpg's, and equalled his FG%. Oh, and he badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot his opposing centers in the post-season, most all of whom are in the HOF. And in his six finals, he outscored and outrebounded them, and outshot them by a .559 to .439 margin (yes 12%!.)

And for the record, had Wilt had faced the Lakers at all, in his prime, from '60 thru '68, he likely would hold many post-season and scoring records. Russell feasted on LA in his five Finals against them in that span...and here were Wilt's regular season numbers against LA in those nine years:


Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%


And here were Wilt's from '60 thru '68:

Quote:
Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[LAZERUSS]

Last time I checked, this past 1.5 decade is the last one that comes to mind when it comes to center quality, so, from that point, no. Total rebounds and FGA's (for early Wilt) are probably the only stats of his era that would go down and be more "realistic" today, but not due to competition.

As for your analogy, let's say that during regular season it's Shaq vs "average center of Shaq's era" and in the playoffs, we have "Shaq vs prime Olajuwon or Shaq vs Duncan (a few times even both), but year after year, and with less overall rounds to pad his averages".

Shaq certainly outplayed Ben Wallace in the '04 Finals (26.6 ppg on a .631 FG%...albeit, Wallace outrebounded him per game, 13.6 to 10.8 rpg), but his Lakers were wiped out 4-1.

THAT was pretty much the Wilt story in his post-season H2H's against Russell (except Wilt outrebounded Russell in ALL eight of their post-season H2H series, some by as much as 9 rpg.)

.

[Asukal]

#1 Wilt
#2 Lebran

The 2 biggest chokers in nba history. :oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

1.LeBron
2.Wilt
3.Malone
4.Barkley
5.Duncan

[T_L_P]

1.LeBron
2.Wilt
3.Malone
4.Barkley
5.Duncan

Out of interest, why is Duncan there?

[LAZERUSS]

Out of interest, why is Duncan there?

THAT is the ONLY question mark you have with that group?

[SexSymbol]

Out of interest, why is Duncan there?
collapse against Thunder,
lost against an 8th seed as a 1st seed which is incredibly rare.
missed point blank lay-up against heat
I remember some older chokes, but I'm afraid to say the year wrong, I could talk to you about this more tomorrow if you're really interested.

For the record, I just put him because of the quantity of chokes, he's still a top 6 player in my eyes

[Asukal]

THAT is the ONLY question mark you have with that group?

Out of that group only Duncan has a case of not being a choker. :oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

THAT is the ONLY question mark you have with that group?
Well Duncan and maybe Barkley are questionable.
First two are obvious choices for everybody

[T_L_P]

THAT is the ONLY question mark you have with that group?

Not the only, but I'm not gonna pretend like I saw 2-4 play during their primes... I'm not well versed in their careers at all. :confusedshrug:

[JT123]

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin Durant
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Tim Duncan

[T_L_P]

collapse against Thunder,
lost against an 8th seed as a 1st seed which is incredibly rare.
missed point blank lay-up against heat
I remember some older chokes, but I'm afraid to say the year wrong, I could talk to you about this more tomorrow if you're really interested.

For the record, I just put him because of the quantity of chokes, he's still a top 6 player in my eyes

Agree with the first two, but 2013 isn't a choke. Without Duncan's contributions, the Spurs wouldn't have been in a position to tie the game. Duncan was the best Spur in the Finals at 37 years old. A guy that old shouldn't have to be scoring 30 points in a game to keep his team in it. Parker, Manu, to a lesser extent Green all choked far worse.

[LAZERUSS]

Out of that group only Duncan has a case of not being a choker. :oldlol:

Your definition of a "choker" is different than mine. Wilt has the third highest ppg average in his post-season "must win" games (just barely behind Lebron, who is #1 BTW, and MJ), averaged 26 rpg, and shot 10% over the post-season league average, all while badly outscoring, outrebounding, outassisting, outblocking, and outshooting his HOF peers in the post-season. Hell, he doubled Russell in their post-season H2H's in scoring, wiped him on the glass in every series, and outshot him by 10% from the field in his post-season H2H's with Russell. And some here claim that Russell was one of the most "clutch" playoff performers of all-time.

BTW, how about Russell's teammates?

http://www.celtic-nation.com/interviews/sam_jones/sam_jones_page1.htm


“In the years that I played with the Celtics,” says Russell, “in terms of total basketball skills, Sam Jones was the most skillful player that I ever played with. At one point, we won a total of eight consecutive NBA championships, and six times during that run we asked Sam to take the shot that meant the season. If he didn’t hit the shot we were finished – we were going home empty-handed. He never missed.”

Or Havlicek "steals the ball" in game seven of the '65 EDF's. Or Havlicek being Bostons' best player in the '68 and '69 playoffs.

[SexSymbol]

Agree with the first two, but 2013 isn't a choke. Without Duncan's contributions, the Spurs wouldn't have been in a position to tie the game. Duncan was the best Spur in the Finals at 37 years old. A guy that old shouldn't have to be scoring 30 points in a game to keep his team in it. Parker, Manu, to a lesser extent Green all choked far worse.
I'm trying not to take age into account so much as long as he's playing big minutes.
If he plays big minutes, that means he's able to do so and should be held to such a standard. Or maybe I'm completely wrong on this, who the **** knows.
I love Duncan to death, especially when they have similar character to Kobe in terms of mentoring and leading other players, but the guy has some terrible jokes that he's mostly not being called out for enough

[LAZERUSS]

Well Duncan and maybe Barkley are questionable.
First two are obvious choices for everybody

Ok, Wilt played in 29 post-season series. Give me YOUR list of the series in which he "choked" (and by definition, the one's you leave off would be considered "clutch" then, right?) Oh, and I want you to also give me the numbers that his opposing centers put up in those "choking" series, as well.

[SexSymbol]

Ok, Wilt played in 29 post-season series. Give me YOUR list of the series in which he "choked" (and by definition, the one's you leave off would be considered "clutch" then, right?) Oh, and I want you to also give me the numbers that his opposing centers put up in those "choking" series, as well.
If he doesn't match up to his regular season numbers in the post season there's not much argument for him not choking.
I know you love him to death, and after, but please be objective. There's a lot of reasons why he is considered the biggest choker ever and you know them well, it's just that your homerism doesn't let you accept it. All players have flaws, Wilt is still top 10, which is a great achievement

[T_L_P]

I'm trying not to take age into account so much as long as he's playing big minutes.
If he plays big minutes, that means he's able to do so and should be held to such a standard. Or maybe I'm completely wrong on this, who the **** knows.
I love Duncan to death, especially when they have similar character to Kobe in terms of mentoring and leading other players, but the guy has some terrible jokes that he's mostly not being called out for enough

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree...but Duncan's major chokes are 2011 and 2004...and he was still easily the best Spur in 04. So in essence he has one major choke, which a lot of people talk about. :confusedshrug:

[Asukal]

Ok, Wilt played in 29 post-season series. Give me YOUR list of the series in which he "choked" (and by definition, the one's you leave off would be considered "clutch" then, right?) Oh, and I want you to also give me the numbers that his opposing centers put up in those "choking" series, as well.

Nothing changes history old man. Your boy Wilt couldn't get it done while being bigger, stronger, more dominant than any of his peers during his day. It's actually laughable he only won 2 while being matched up against a guy 4 inches shorter. :oldlol: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Nothing changes history old man. Your boy Wilt couldn't get it done while being bigger, stronger, more dominant than any of his peers during his day. It's actually laughable he only won 2 while being matched up against a guy 4 inches shorter. :oldlol: :roll:

You mean his badly overmatched TEAMMATES right?

How many titles did Jordan win in his 15 year career? Did he choke in NINE of them?

Bird? Did he choke in TEN of his post-seasons?
West in 12?
Kobe in 12?
Duncan in 13?
KAJ in 14?
Shaq in 15?
Hakeem in 16?

[Asukal]

You mean his badly overmatched TEAMMATES right?

How many titles did Jordan win in his 15 year career? Did he choke in NINE of them?

Bird? Did he choke in TEN of his post-seasons?
West in 12?
Kobe in 12?
Duncan in 13?
KAJ in 14?
Shaq in 15?
Hakeem in 16?

Oh now you use the team mates card? Well it is already well documented Wilt did get quality team mates around him during the 2nd half of his career. Yet still only managed to win 2. :oldlol: :roll:

Just think about it, Wilt only won once against Russell, a guy 4 inches shorter. When Russ retired Wilt still couldn't manage to dominate the league. :oldlol:

What's your next excuse? :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

If he doesn't match up to his regular season numbers in the post season there's not much argument for him not choking.
I know you love him to death, and after, but please be objective. There's a lot of reasons why he is considered the biggest choker ever and you know them well, it's just that your homerism doesn't let you accept it. All players have flaws, Wilt is still top 10, which is a great achievement

You would be hard-pressed to find a handful of playoff series in which was outplayed by his counter-part, most all of whom are in the HOF. And his regular season "dropoff" is STILL overwhelming.

For instance, Wilt played in 160 post-season games, of which only 52 came in his "scoring" prime. And out of those 52, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of them. In fact, let's go to '67, and his first 67 playoff games, 35 of which came against Russell. Here are the numbers...

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, .515 FG% (in leagues that shot about .420 in that span), with a conservative estimate of 8+ blocks per game.

Now, go ahead and give me your list of GOATs who averaged a 30-27-5-8 .515 (and shooting 10% over the post-season league average) in a single SERIES. Hell, give me the list of GOATs who had ONE GAME with that stat-line.

A prime scoring Wilt had 12 "must-win" games in the post-season, EIGHT of which were against RUSSELL (and his swarming Celtics.) Guess what? Wilt AVERAGED 37.3 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and shot .521 from the field (in post-seasons that shot .417 in that same span.)

In his 23 career post-season "must win" games...

31.1 ppg (OVER his regular season ppg average of 30.1 ppg)
26.4 rpg (OVER his regular season rpg average of 22.9 rpg)
.540 FG% (EQUAL to his regular season FG% of .540.)

But aside from the pure numbers, he was either outplaying, or downright destroying his HOF peers in the vast majority of his post-season series.

And again, give me YOUR list of the playoff series in which Wilt "choked."

[LAZERUSS]

Oh now you use the team mates card? Well it is already well documented Wilt did get quality team mates around him during the 2nd half of his career. Yet still only managed to win 2. :oldlol: :roll:

Just think about it, Wilt only won once against Russell, a guy 4 inches shorter. When Russ retired Wilt still couldn't manage to dominate the league. :oldlol:

What's your next excuse? :rolleyes:

It is also well documented that Wilt's rosters badly unde-rperformed in the post-season.

How about this?




Wilt had Hall Of Fame teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.



Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

And then this...


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Of course, Wilt's 68 roster had SEVEN of their EIGHT key players either playing injured, or not playing at all, including Wilt, himself, and they lost a game seven in the '68 EDF's by four points. Of course, just the year before, and with a healthy roster, they annihilated the 60-21 Celtics, 4-1 (and were four points away from a sweep in game four.)

Or Wilt coming back from major knee surgery in four months, and taking an under-dog Laker team to a game seven of the '70 Finals against the HOF-laden and 60-22 Knicks (in a series in which Wilt averaged 23-24 .625.)

Or Wilt taking his 48-34 Lakers, withOUT BOTH West and Baylor, up against the 66-16 Bucks in '71.

Or Wilt leading his '72 Lakers past that same Bucks team, and then wiping out the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

Or Wilt taking his 60-22 Lakers further than KAJ did his 60-22 Bucks in the post-season, and with West just a shell, losing four close games in the Finals against the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

[Asukal]

It is also well documented that Wilt's rosters badly unde-rperformed in the post-season.

How about this?



And then this...



Of course, Wilt's 68 roster had SEVEN of their EIGHT key players either playing injured, or not playing at all, including Wilt, himself, and they lost a game seven in the '68 EDF's by four points. Of course, just the year before, and with a healthy roster, they annihilated the 60-21 Celtics, 4-1 (and were four points away from a sweep in game four.)

Or Wilt coming back from major knee surgery in four months, and taking an under-dog Laker team to a game seven of the '70 Finals against the HOF-laden and 60-22 Knicks (in a series in which Wilt averaged 23-24 .625.)

Or Wilt taking his 48-34 Lakers, withOUT BOTH West and Baylor, up against the 66-16 Bucks in '71.

Or Wilt leading his '72 Lakers past that same Bucks team, and then wiping out the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

Or Wilt taking his 60-22 Lakers further than KAJ did his 60-22 Bucks in the post-season, and with West just a shell, losing four close games in the Finals against the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

In other words, he choked. :applause: :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

If he doesn't match up to his regular season numbers in the post season there's not much argument for him not choking.
I know you love him to death, and after, but please be objective. There's a lot of reasons why he is considered the biggest choker ever and you know them well, it's just that your homerism doesn't let you accept it. All players have flaws, Wilt is still top 10, which is a great achievement

Why is performance judged solely on numbers though? Is it possible that Wilt could have been playing a different role in the post season than he was in the regular season?

[deja vu]

Wilt has to be the undisputed #1 choke artist followed by LeBron.

Regular season: 30 ppg
Playoffs: 23 ppg
Finals: 18 ppg

Pathetic.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's post-season "choke jobs", like his '60 EDF's, or his '62 EDF's, or his '64 Finals, or his '65 EDF's, or his '66 EDF's, or his '70 Finals, or his '71 WCF's...

compare with Baylor's '62 Finals, West's '69 Finals, Thurmond's '72 playoff series against KAJ, KAJ's '74 Finals, McAdoo's '75 series against the 60-22 Bullets, KAJ's '77 WCF's, Dr. J's '77 Finals, Bernard King's '84 series against Boston, MJ's '86 series against Boston (including his 'stats-padding" choke job in game two), and Lebron's '09 ECF's.

What a pathetic cast of playoff "choking" performances...

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan a choker?

Come on now. Everyone has their bad moments in big playoff games, even the holy trio of Jordan/Magic/Bird, but throughout his career Duncan has performed well in the postseason and is far from a choker.