View Full Version : If LBJ won two titles, where would he rank all-time?
Westbrook0
04-17-2012, 10:40 PM
Let's say LeBron wins the MVP this year.
Wins two rings
Two Finals MVP
One more regular season MVP along the way.
And his stats and production all develop at the normal rate.
Where would he end up all-time?
6th?
hkfosho
04-17-2012, 10:41 PM
6-8th
EnoughSaid
04-17-2012, 10:42 PM
If his stats and productions stays around 26/7/7 at 50% with 2 Titles and FMVP's while also winning his 3rd MVP? I say he's probably around the 5-7 mark.
Lebron23
04-17-2012, 10:44 PM
Higher than Kob1tch
Doctor Rivers
04-17-2012, 10:46 PM
:mad:
:roll:
gengiskhan
04-17-2012, 10:46 PM
10th
Duncan has to say bye bye to that 10th spot!
Kobe has to say bye by to that 12th spot! as well as Duncan is pushed down.
EnoughSaid
04-17-2012, 10:47 PM
What? Another couple of season putting up amazing stats along with TWO CHAMPIONSHIPS would definitely put him in the top 10.
jb220
04-17-2012, 10:48 PM
LeBron won't win two titles but regardless he is a top 10 player ALL TIME.
He will win a few more MVPS, so let's say his resume looks around this in 10 or so years:
5x MVP
2x NBA Finals Runner Up(Most likely 2-3 more)
All-Star Every year of his career
All NBA Every year of his career
All Defense Every year of his career
Top 10 in Points
Top 15 in Rebounds,Assists
Rookie of the Year
That's GREAT, easily top 10, maybe more like 7/9.
Odinn
04-17-2012, 10:48 PM
Probably top 10. Mostly depends on title runs. But saying 5-7 range is pretty optimistic imo.
Mr Know It All
04-17-2012, 10:48 PM
Top 5.
And no I'm not kidding. This kind of production into his early 30s with MVPs and some titles to back him up. Who has a better case than him other than the other all-time greats?
Bobcat4Ever
04-17-2012, 10:51 PM
Let's say LeBron wins the MVP this year.
Wins two rings
Two Finals MVP
One more regular season MVP along the way.
And his stats and production all develop at the normal rate.
Where would he end up all-time?
6th?
It's a good thing we never have to worry about this.
Scholar
04-17-2012, 10:53 PM
Another hypothetical LeBron thread. :facepalm
Man, you LeBron dick riders really enjoy circle jerking one another off about all the "what-ifs" in LeBron's future.
How about you focus on this season and see if he has a chance to win a title with the Miami Heat?
... Oh, wait. I forgot. Apparently LeBron's "supporting cast sucks." :rolleyes:
hkfosho
04-17-2012, 10:54 PM
LeBron won't win two titles but regardless he is a top 10 player ALL TIME.
He will win a few more MVPS, so let's say his resume looks around this in 10 or so years:
5x MVP
2x NBA Finals Runner Up(Most likely 2-3 more)
All-Star Every year of his career
All NBA Every year of his career
All Defense Every year of his career
Top 10 in Points
Top 15 in Rebounds,Assists
Rookie of the Year
That's GREAT, easily top 10, maybe more like 7/9.
No, championships are the epitome of greatness, if he falls short due to choking hard, then he doesn't deserve to be in top 10 imo.
gengiskhan
04-17-2012, 10:56 PM
Any fool here says LBJ is Top 7 or Top 6 is an idiot! plain & simple!
2007 Loss & particularly 2011 loss costs Lebron huge.
2 FMVPs won out of 4 NBA Finals trip
2011: LBJ was favorite to win it all but his performance was pathetic.
Top 10 GOATs yes. 3 MVPs & 2 FMVPs
Top 8 GOATs NO!!!! not a chance. its too stacked.
plus, its unfair to Kobe when I always mention his 2004 & 2008 loss despite being heavy favorites.
Lebron gets the same treatment.
jb220
04-17-2012, 10:57 PM
No, championships are the epitome of greatness, if he falls short due to choking hard, then he doesn't deserve to be in top 10 imo.
It's not his fault his teams are flawed, if he had the teammates that other top 10 players(Magic,Kobe,Wilt,Hakeem,Kareem,MJ,etc.) had then he would win multiple rings.
knightfall88
04-17-2012, 10:59 PM
he wont win 2 titles and 2 fmvp. lmao
macpierce
04-17-2012, 11:02 PM
how is lebron going to win FMVP with wade on his team? :roll: :roll: :roll:
ashlar
04-17-2012, 11:03 PM
Higher than Kob1tch
Seek psychiatric help.
Bandito
04-17-2012, 11:15 PM
Lower than Kobe :lol :kobe:
Lebron23
04-17-2012, 11:22 PM
Seek psychiatric help.
U mad????
zizozain
04-17-2012, 11:53 PM
25-35
Deuce Bigalow
04-17-2012, 11:58 PM
12th. That's if he wins the Finals MVP both times.
Phong
04-18-2012, 12:06 AM
If we give LeBron two imaginary titles, where does he rank amongst the other imaginary champions?
Kingwillball
04-18-2012, 12:09 AM
12th. That's if he wins the Finals MVP both times.
He is Already ahead of Kobe.. Titles Dont make Kobe a better Player... Lebron has been the best Player in the NBA for 3 or 4 yrs Kobe was Lucky to be the best for 1 or 2 seasons Max..
zizozain
04-18-2012, 12:22 AM
12th. That's if he wins the Finals MVP both times.
are you fcuking serious?
2011 and 2010 performance costs him at leasts 20 spots
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 12:34 AM
He is Already ahead of Kobe.. Titles Dont make Kobe a better Player... Lebron has been the best Player in the NBA for 3 or 4 yrs Kobe was Lucky to be the best for 1 or 2 seasons Max..
lol
Westbrook0
04-18-2012, 12:34 AM
Wow. Try to have a legitimate discussion on here and it quickly gets overwhelmed with anti-LeBron trolls.
Keep it classy guys.
talkingconch
04-18-2012, 01:33 AM
LeBron won't win two titles but regardless he is a top 10 player ALL TIME.
He will win a few more MVPS, so let's say his resume looks around this in 10 or so years:
5x MVP
2x NBA Finals Runner Up(Most likely 2-3 more)
All-Star Every year of his career
All NBA Every year of his career
All Defense Every year of his career
Top 10 in Points
Top 15 in Rebounds,Assists
Rookie of the Year
That's GREAT, easily top 10, maybe more like 7/9.
is this guy serious?
Well considering that means around 3 more seasons, that would make his career accomplishments look something like this:
LEBRON JAMES NBA CAREER
4 x MVP
2 x FMVP
2 x Championships
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
9 x All-NBA 1st team
7 x All-Defensive 1st team
3 x All-Star MVP
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
25 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
STATS:
26362 points @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all time)
6600 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
6600 assists @ 7.0 APG
1500 steals @ 1.7 SPG
750 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
50+ total triple doubles
PER - ~27 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)
NBA achievements
One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.
One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008
And what that means..... is that Lebron is automatically in Top 10 and is on debate to who should be #4-#6 of all time........
The only players he would still not surpass are Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and maybe not Wilt Chamberlain either....
CardiacKemba
04-18-2012, 01:41 AM
[QUOTE=pauk]Well considering that means around 3 more seasons, that would make his career accomplishments look something like this:
LEBRON JAMES NBA CAREER
4 x MVP
2 x FMVP
2 x Championships
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
9 x All-NBA 1st team
7 x All-Defensive 1st team
3 x All-Star MVP
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
25 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
STATS:
26362 points @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all time)
6600 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
6600 assists @ 7.0 APG
1500 steals @ 1.7 SPG
750 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
50+ total triple doubles
PER - ~27 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)
NBA achievements
One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.
One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008
Scholar
04-18-2012, 01:41 AM
[QUOTE=pauk]Well considering that means around 3 more seasons, that would make his career accomplishments look something like this:
LEBRON JAMES NBA CAREER
4 x MVP
2 x FMVP
2 x Championships
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
9 x All-NBA 1st team
7 x All-Defensive 1st team
3 x All-Star MVP
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
25 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
STATS:
26362 points @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all time)
6600 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
6600 assists @ 7.0 APG
1500 steals @ 1.7 SPG
750 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
50+ total triple doubles
PER - ~27 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)
NBA achievements
One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.
One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008
chazzy
04-18-2012, 01:42 AM
The only players he would still not surpass are Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and maybe not Wilt Chamberlain either....
So with two titles, Lebron is #3 all time?? :oldlol:
Mach_3
04-18-2012, 01:42 AM
:mad:
But anyway probably somewhere around 9-12 area
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 01:43 AM
And what that means..... is that Lebron is automatically in Top 10 and is on debate to who should be #4-#6 of all time........
The only players he would still not surpass are Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and maybe not Wilt Chamberlain either....
Championships
Russell - 11
Jordan - 6
Kareem - 6
Magic - 5
Kobe - 5
Mikan - 5
Shaq - 4
Duncan - 4
Bird - 3
Hakeem - 2
Wilt - 2
Winning 2 rings will not surpass those 11 players.
Mach_3
04-18-2012, 01:44 AM
And what that means..... is that Lebron is automatically in Top 10 and is on debate to who should be #4-#6 of all time........
The only players he would still not surpass are Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and maybe not Wilt Chamberlain either....
:wtf:
Your infatuation with LeBron is troubling Pauk.....
How come...? :rolleyes:
A lot of those things you mentioned (which by the way I have no idea how you know half those facts)
Wiki....
are pointless when considering a player's all-time ranking.
1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions. :biggums:
I listed his career accomplishments/achievements/milestones.... take it for what its worth...
Those milestones will not help him dramatically in the all-time list but it is a good information to have when you want to sepparate him from somebody else who has equal amount of rings-mvps and so on......... if you have nothing else to sepparate them about, then you can find things out such as these to help your case....
:wtf:
Yes... are you slowminded or something? What is it?
Mach_3
04-18-2012, 01:55 AM
Yes... are you slowminded or something? What is it?
The fact that you think that 2 titles puts Lebron 4th on the all time list is priceless :roll:
Championships
Russell - 11
Jordan - 6
Kareem - 6
Magic - 5
Kobe - 5
Mikan - 5
Shaq - 4
Duncan - 4
Bird - 3
Hakeem - 2
Wilt - 2
Winning 2 rings will not surpass those 11 players.
This guy...... haha....
Unfortunately my friend..... caring only about team accomplishments and nothing else would change that list much more dramatically than that......
Russell - 11
Jones - 10
Heinsohn - 8
Jones - 8
Sanders - 8
Havlicek - 8
Loscutoff - 7
Ramsey - 7
Horry - 7
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Pollard - 5
Martin - 5
Siegfried - 5
Nelson - 5
Cooper - 5
Rodman - 5
Harper - 5
Kerr - 5
Fisher - 5
Magic - 5
Mikan - 5
Kobe - 5
Mikkelsen - 4
Saul - 4
Sharman - 4
Wilkes - 4
Parish - 4
Rambis - 4
Salley - 4
Perdue - 4
H. Grant - 4
Shaq - 4
Duncan - 4
Ouch................. that would all of the sudden throw the likes of Lebron, Bird, Wilt outside of TOP 50 of all time.............. and even throw Jordan outside TOP 10..........
But hey..... its only Rings that matter right??????? Isnt that right Deuce? Its all about ringzzzzzzzzzzzzzz baby......
talkingconch
04-18-2012, 02:03 AM
Well considering that means around 3 more seasons, that would make his career accomplishments look something like this:
LEBRON JAMES NBA CAREER
4 x MVP
2 x FMVP
2 x Championships
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
9 x All-NBA 1st team
7 x All-Defensive 1st team
3 x All-Star MVP
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
25 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
STATS:
26362 points @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all time)
6600 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
6600 assists @ 7.0 APG
1500 steals @ 1.7 SPG
750 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
50+ total triple doubles
PER - ~27 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)
NBA achievements
One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.
One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008–09 season).[4] Includes Dave Cowens (1977–78), Scottie Pippen (1994–95) and Kevin Garnett (2002–03).
1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions.
1st player in NBA History to score at least 40 points in the first road playoff game with 41 points at the Washington Wizards on April 28, 2006.
1st player in NBA History to lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks for two consecutive seasons (2008–2009, 2009–2010).
1st forward in NBA history to average more than 8.0 assists per game (2009–2010).
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.[5] Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 27 consecutive games
Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points at the Detroit Pistons on May 31, 2007.[6]
Youngest player records
James owns numerous NBA "youngest player" records. He is the youngest to:
To be selected #1 overall draft pick (18 years of age).[1]
To be named NBA Rookie of the Year (19 years of age).[1]
To record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[1] Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.
To record a triple-double in the playoffs. (21 years, 113 days).[1] Recorded 32 points, 11 rebounds, and 11 assists on April 22, 2006 vs. Washington Wizards.
To score 30 points in a game (18 years, 334 days).[1] Recorded 33 points on November 29, 2003 vs. Memphis Grizzlies
To score 40 points in a game (19 years, 88 days).[1] Recorded 41 points on March 27, 2004 vs. New Jersey Nets.
To score 2,000 points in a season (2004–05).[1]
To average at least 30 points per game in the NBA.
To be awarded All-NBA honors (2004–05).[1]
To be named to the All-NBA first team (21 years, 138 days).[1]
To win an All-Star Game MVP (21 years, 55 days).[1]
To lead the league in All-Star voting (22 years, 26 days).[1]
To lead the team in PPG (19 years of age).[1]
To score 2,000 points in seven consecutive seasons (26 years of age).[1]
To reach:[1]
Every thousand point milestone from 1,000 points to whatever he has now
Pauk...half the achievements you posted are nitpick stats.
i expect better from you.
No i don't.
Bandito
04-18-2012, 02:04 AM
I wonder what would happen if Lebron doesn't come back to the finals?
talkingconch
04-18-2012, 02:06 AM
This guy...... haha....
Unfortunately my friend..... caring only about team accomplishments and nothing else would change that list much more dramatically than that......
Russell - 11
Jones - 10
Heinsohn - 8
Jones - 8
Sanders - 8
Havlicek - 8
Loscutoff - 7
Ramsey - 7
Horry - 7
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Pollard - 5
Martin - 5
Siegfried - 5
Nelson - 5
Cooper - 5
Rodman - 5
Harper - 5
Kerr - 5
Fisher - 5
Magic - 5
Mikan - 5
Kobe - 5
Mikkelsen - 4
Saul - 4
Sharman - 4
Wilkes - 4
Parish - 4
Rambis - 4
Salley - 4
Perdue - 4
H. Grant - 4
Shaq - 4
Duncan - 4
Ouch................. that would all of the sudden throw the likes of Lebron, Bird, Wilt outside of TOP 50 of all time.............. and even throw Jordan outside TOP 10..........
But hey..... its only Rings that matter right??????? Isnt that right Deuce? Its all about ringzzzzzzzzzzzzzz baby......
He never said rings are the only thing that matter. If you knew anything about basketball you'd know that Robery Horry's 7 rings don't have the same value as Kobe Bryant's 5 rings
or Steve Kerr's 5 rings don't have the same value as Jordan's 6 rings
These players played different roles on their respective teams.
buffoon :facepalm
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 02:07 AM
This guy...... haha....
Unfortunately my friend..... caring only about team accomplishments and nothing else would change that list much more dramatically than that......
Russell - 11
Jones - 10
Heinsohn - 8
Jones - 8
Sanders - 8
Havlicek - 8
Loscutoff - 7
Ramsey - 7
Horry - 7
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Pollard - 5
Martin - 5
Siegfried - 5
Nelson - 5
Cooper - 5
Rodman - 5
Harper - 5
Kerr - 5
Fisher - 5
Magic - 5
Mikan - 5
Kobe - 5
Mikkelsen - 4
Saul - 4
Sharman - 4
Wilkes - 4
Parish - 4
Rambis - 4
Salley - 4
Perdue - 4
H. Grant - 4
Shaq - 4
Duncan - 4
Ouch................. that would all of the sudden throw the likes of Lebron, Bird, Wilt outside of TOP 50 of all time.............. and even throw Jordan outside TOP 10..........
But hey..... its only Rings that matter right??????? Isnt that right Deuce? Its all about ringzzzzzzzzzzzzzz baby......
No, you can't handle the truth kid.
The top 10 player of all-time:
Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt
All have 2 rings minimum, along with 2 Finals MVPs (Russell and WIlt would have atleast 2 if the award existed before '69)
Why is the general consensus 10 greatest player of alltime have atleast 2 championships?
Because the great players win, and in order to be the best, you have to win.
And comparing Horry's or Kerr's rings to those superstars shows your intelligence.
Heavincent
04-18-2012, 02:10 AM
Lebron is the hypothetical GOAT.
Funny how we have to pretend that Lebron has two championships. Guess what: Kobe's already got 5 of those...in REALITY. Get mad Lebron stans.
chazzy
04-18-2012, 02:12 AM
The only players he would still not surpass are Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and maybe not Wilt Chamberlain either....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQl-Soar1vU
NuggetsFan
04-18-2012, 02:22 AM
LeBron with 2 titles and 2 FMVP's would have an insane resume. He's got insane statistical dominance already. He honestly could end up with 3-4 MVP's before he's done. That's more than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe. Atleast ends up tying Magic, Bird. Along the way he's going to continue racking up All-NBA's\All-NBA defense's to perk up his resume. There's even a chance he steals a DPOTY at some point.
Depending on how he performed while getting there is the key. It's the difference between him ending up in the 9-12 range or the 3-6 range.
It's what if's so not really worth discussing IMO but when you think about it LeBron does have a legit shot at passing guy's like Duncan, Kobe etc. He's got the insane numbers, MVP's, just missing the rings to go along with it(because he does have the regular season success, not like he's KG in Minny or something).
Rings are the hardest thing to add to your resume so I wouldn't hold my breathe if I was I LeBron fan. It's possible, but honestly after the past 3 years pretending like he's a lock for 3-4 rings at this point is a joke :oldlol:
He never said rings are the only thing that matter. If you knew anything about basketball you'd know that Robery Horry's 7 rings don't have the same value as Kobe Bryant's 5 rings
That still means caring only about rings, but this time throwing in value of those rings....? :confusedshrug:
Like 3 of Kobes rings having the same value of 3 of Pippens rings or like 5 of Kobes rings having the same value of 5 of John Havliceks 8 rings or maybe all of them...... so that means they should be ranked around the same spot on the all-time list... confusing right? :rolleyes:
Just stop it... Team accomplishments are only the icing on the cake an all-time great needs, but it is the CAKE that matters... not the icing... the icing is only a finishing touch...
All Net
04-18-2012, 02:26 AM
Top 5-8 depending on how he wins...
Vienceslav
04-18-2012, 02:35 AM
Just stop it... Team accomplishments are only the icing on the cake an all-time great needs, but it is the CAKE that matters... not the icing... the icing is only a finishing touch...
The cake is a lie.:roll:
Either way , to answer OP
Kobe 4 The Win
04-18-2012, 02:58 AM
It's a good thing we never have to worry about this.
Future repped.
Alamo
04-18-2012, 03:01 AM
I'll rank him when this happens. For now I'm not sure he's cracking the top 15. Multiple FMVPs will probably put him in the top 10.
That still means caring only about rings, but this time throwing in value of those rings....? :confusedshrug:
Like 3 of Kobes rings having the same value of 3 of Pippens rings or like 5 of Kobes rings having the same value of 5 of John Havliceks 8 rings or maybe all of them...... so that means they should be ranked around the same spot on the all-time list... confusing right? :rolleyes:
Just stop it... Team accomplishments are only the icing on the cake an all-time great needs, but it is the CAKE that matters... not the icing... the icing is only a finishing touch...
So you don't think team accomplishments have anything to do with the way a superstar plays? You don't think they are related at all? You think its all coincidence? You think Jordan leading the Bulls to 6 titles and winning 6 FMVPs has nothing to do with how great Jordan is?
If Lebron won a title and FMVP this year and next, I'd probably put him right outside the top 10 at #11 just cause his career would still be alot shorter then pretty much everyone in the top 10. Depends on what else he accomplishes.
miggyme1
04-18-2012, 12:10 PM
LeBron won't win two titles but regardless he is a top 10 player ALL TIME.
He will win a few more MVPS, so let's say his resume looks around this in 10 or so years:
5x MVP
2x NBA Finals Runner Up(Most likely 2-3 more)
All-Star Every year of his career
All NBA Every year of his career
All Defense Every year of his career
Top 10 in Points
Top 15 in Rebounds,Assists
Rookie of the Year
That's GREAT, easily top 10, maybe more like 7/9.
he wont win any rings but still will be top 10 of all time?dat doesnt even make sense kid.go back to the drawing board
RaininTwos
04-18-2012, 12:11 PM
I'll rank him when this happens. For now I'm not sure he's cracking the top 15. Multiple FMVPs will probably put him in the top 10.
pretty much /thread
Doranku
04-18-2012, 12:14 PM
LeBron James will never win a Finals MVP, so he'll never be top 10 all time.
How is this hard to understand? :hammerhead:
DKLaker
04-18-2012, 12:28 PM
Another hypothetical LeBron thread. :facepalm
Man, you LeBron dick riders really enjoy circle jerking one another off about all the "what-ifs" in LeBron's future.
How about you focus on this season and see if he has a chance to win a title with the Miami Heat?
... Oh, wait. I forgot. Apparently LeBron's "supporting cast sucks." :rolleyes:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
These fools have severely lowered their standards from the 7-8 titles, now they're circle jerking over 2 titles that Lefraud will never get.
We better stay out of the splash zone :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Harison
04-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Top 11-15 range. People saying Top5-8... really? Over Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe? No chance in hell, over any of them. 4 rings or so, and LBJ has a chance over Kobe, but good luck with that :D
swi7ch
04-18-2012, 12:32 PM
Top 10.
Fudge
04-18-2012, 12:37 PM
8-10. I'd personally him at 10, overtaking Hakeem.
1. Michael Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. LeBron James
Streetballer
04-18-2012, 12:38 PM
So you don't think team accomplishments have anything to do with the way a superstar plays? You don't think they are related at all? You think its all coincidence? You think Jordan leading the Bulls to 6 titles and winning 6 FMVPs has nothing to do with how great Jordan is?
This.!!:applause: :applause:
I've always Said What makes you Great!!!!
At the Big Moments in Games When your Team needs you Most!!Do you bring them to the Promise Land!!
Do you Say To the Team and Coach!!! Give me the Ball!!And Deliver??
That's What make You A GOAT!!!!!
Jordan,Kobe,Derek Jeter, Eli Manning, Wayne Gretzky,Magic,Bird, And the List Goes on!!!!
Lebron is Not that Type of Player!!!!PLEASE STOP WIT THIS G.O.A.T talk wen it comes to LEBRON!!!!!!(STOP)
:banghead: :banghead:
Streetballer
04-18-2012, 12:48 PM
Lebron Will Be Probably A top 20 Player!!!(Individual Stats Wise)
But to me You have the bring it When Your team needs you the Most!!
1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Bird
4.Jabar
5.Duncan
6.Shaq
7.Thomas
8. Walt Clyde
10.The Dream
11.John Hav
12.Kobe
13.Wade
Those Players Always Came Thru For their Team!!!(Finals)
I'm a Fan of Lebron, But You can't Depend on him! At the Big Moments when his team needs Him Most!!!
His Mental is Softer Than a gay Dude at a Strip Club!!!
Niquesports
04-18-2012, 12:57 PM
LeBron won't win two titles but regardless he is a top 10 player ALL TIME.
He will win a few more MVPS, so let's say his resume looks around this in 10 or so years:
5x MVP
2x NBA Finals Runner Up(Most likely 2-3 more)
All-Star Every year of his career
All NBA Every year of his career
All Defense Every year of his career
Top 10 in Points
Top 15 in Rebounds,Assists
Rookie of the Year
That's GREAT, easily top 10, maybe more like 7/9.
In No order 10 players LBJ would need more than 2 titles to pass.
KAJ
Russell
WIlt
Shaq
Jordan
Magic
BIrd
Elgin Baylor
Hakeem
Moses Malone
Oscar Robinson
SO at best he can hope for 12 but that would be a tie with Kobe
Niquesports
04-18-2012, 01:02 PM
This.!!:applause: :applause:
I've always Said What makes you Great!!!!
At the Big Moments in Games When your Team needs you Most!!Do you bring them to the Promise Land!!
Do you Say To the Team and Coach!!! Give me the Ball!!And Deliver??
That's What make You A GOAT!!!!!
Jordan,Kobe,Derek Jeter, Eli Manning, Wayne Gretzky,Magic,Bird, And the List Goes on!!!!
Lebron is Not that Type of Player!!!!PLEASE STOP WIT THIS G.O.A.T talk wen it comes to LEBRON!!!!!!(STOP)
:banghead: :banghead:
Great Post but no way in the WORLD does Eli Manning belong in the group of players you listed. NO WAY IN THE WORLD !!!!!!!!!!!
longtime lurker
04-18-2012, 01:03 PM
So no one is going to hold playing with Wade and Bosh against him? :confusedshrug:
ShaqAttack3234
04-18-2012, 02:23 PM
I'd have him borderline top 10. Right now, I have him in the 11-15 range. He'd have a shot at top 10, but there are some players he just won't pass on my list.
He's obviously not passing Jordan or Kareem. Don't see him passing Russell either.
With 2 rings, he definitely wouldn't pass Hakeem on my list, who also won 2 and in about the most impressive way possible, while also being a better player than Lebron, imo and certainly a more reliable big game performer.
He's not passing Shaq either, who won 3 in a row, had an even more dominant prime/peak, as well as being a superior playoff performer as well as 4 rings and 3 as "the man".
Don't see him passing Bird, not with 2 rings at least.
And it'd be pretty tough to pass Magic and Duncan with 2 rings.
So yeah, borderline top 10, but maybe still just outside it with 2 rings. I could see the case against Kobe, but I'll have to see how Lebron win and see how he won first. Wilt would be within reach on my list since they'd have pretty similar careers, but he's hard to judge.
He is Already ahead of Kobe.. Titles Dont make Kobe a better Player... Lebron has been the best Player in the NBA for 3 or 4 yrs Kobe was Lucky to be the best for 1 or 2 seasons Max..
Kobe was the best for a solid 3 seasons, imo('06-'08), I'd say that Lebron has been the best for 4 seasons('09-present), but that also has to do with competition for that best player spot.
Kobe was also more widely regarded as the best during that '06-'08 stretch, in fact many still had him best in '09 and '10, including most in the game.
Oositdwn
04-18-2012, 02:28 PM
So no one is going to hold playing with Wade and Bosh against him? :confusedshrug:
Lebron stans will completely ignore this post. :oldlol:
swi7ch
04-18-2012, 02:30 PM
So no one is going to hold playing with Wade and Bosh against him? :confusedshrug:
No.
Listen to how they talk about Magic or Bird (both with HoF "supporting casts"). It's gonna be the same with LeBron 20-25 years from now. No one is going to remember The Decision etc. and everyone will just remember how great LBJ was... just like how ppl these days talk about Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc.
Oositdwn
04-18-2012, 02:37 PM
No.
Listen to how they talk about Magic or Bird (both with HoF "supporting casts"). It's gonna be the same with LeBron 20-25 years from now. No one is going to remember The Decision etc. and everyone will just remember how great LBJ was... just like how ppl these days talk about Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc.
Bird and magic were franchise players for their teams. :no:
They didn't ditch a 66 win team for a fast-track ticket straight to a title (which has failed and will continue to do so).
I would say borderline top 10. These guys would still rank ahead of him:
-MJ
-Wilt
-Kareem
-Magic
-Bird
-Russell
-Shaq
-Hakeem
-Duncan
That 10th spot would be a tossup between LeBron, Kobe, and Jerry West.
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 03:00 PM
I would say borderline top 10. These guys would still rank ahead of him:
-MJ
-Wilt
-Kareem
-Magic
-Bird
-Russell
-Shaq
-Hakeem
-Duncan
That 10th spot would be a tossup between LeBron, Kobe, and Jerry West.
No, there is no toss up for Kobe. He is easily in the top 10 all-time.
Kobe Bryant's ranking compared to the top 25 players of all-time
Championships (5) - 5th, tied with Johnson
Finals MVPs (2) - 5th, tied with Abdul-Jabbar, Bird, Olajuwon, Reed
MVPs (1) - 11th, tied with O'Neal, Robertson, Olajuwon, Erving, Barkley, Robinson, Cousy
Top 5 Finishes in MVP Voting (9) - 5th, tied with Johnson, Bird, Duncan, Malone, Robertson
All-NBA Teams (13) - 4th, tied with Duncan
All-Defensive Teams (11) - 2nd tied with Abdul-Jabbar, Garnett
All-Star Teams (14) - 3rd, tied with Jordan, Garnett, Malone, West
All-NBA First Teams (9) - 8th, tied with Duncan
Scoring Titles (2) - 3rd, tied with Abdul-Jabbar, O'Neal
Points (29,357) - 5th
Playoff Points (5,280) - 3rd
Top 25 players of all-time list by SLAM (http:///www.interbasket.net/news/7683/2011/04/top-500-nba-players-of-all-time-slam/)
bleedinpurpleTwo
04-18-2012, 03:04 PM
Assuming Lebron plays very well in those Finals, and gets Finals MVP for at least one of them, I would have no problem putting him in top-20 all time players.
bleedinpurpleTwo
04-18-2012, 03:05 PM
I would say borderline top 10. These guys would still rank ahead of him:
-MJ
-Wilt
-Kareem
-Magic
-Bird
-Russell
-Shaq
-Hakeem
-Duncan
That 10th spot would be a tossup between LeBron, Kobe, and Jerry West.
you're joking, right?
The two clowns above me are Kobe homers, so your input is irrelevant. Listen to those that are completely neutral. I'm not a fan of either one, so I have no reason to put either of them down. If we say LeBron has 2 titles and we'll say he wins Finals MVP in both of them:
Rings- LeBron(2) Kobe(5)
Finals MVPs- LeBron(2) Kobe(2)
MVPs(as of now)- LeBron(2) Kobe(1)
Top 5 in MVP voting(assuming both are top 5 this year)- LeBron(7) Kobe(10)
And mind you Kobe has been in the league 6 years longer. It's definitely debatable if LeBron wins 2 titles and certainly if he wins Finals MVP both times.
jb220
04-18-2012, 03:19 PM
The two clowns above me are Kobe homers, so your input is irrelevant. Listen to those that are completely neutral. I'm not a fan of either one, so I have no reason to put either of them down. If we say LeBron has 2 titles and we'll say he wins Finals MVP in both of them:
Rings- LeBron(2) Kobe(5)
Finals MVPs- LeBron(2) Kobe(2)
MVPs(as of now)- LeBron(2) Kobe(1)
Top 5 in MVP voting(assuming both are top 5 this year)- LeBron(7) Kobe(10)
And mind you Kobe has been in the league 6 years longer. It's definitely debatable if LeBron wins 2 titles and certainly if he wins Finals MVP both times.
Do not forget that both Kobe and LeBron have been Finals Runner Ups 2x which is very impressive.
Do not forget that both Kobe and LeBron have been Finals Runner Ups 2x which is very impressive.
That is true. But to say that LeBron with 2 titles and 2 Finals MVPs isn't at least comparable to Kobe is insane. Outside of number of total rings, they'd be very comparable and that's with LeBron doing it in less time.
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 03:31 PM
That is true. But to say that LeBron with 2 titles and 2 Finals MVPs isn't at least comparable to Kobe is insane. Outside of number of total rings, they'd be very comparable and that's with LeBron doing it in less time.
Let's not give any credit to Kobe '01 title in which he had 2 playoff series in which he averaged
33/7/7/51% - WCF vs San Antonio
35/9/4/47% - 2nd Round vs Sacramento
BlueandGold
04-18-2012, 03:31 PM
He would be top15, but that's depending if he wins the FMVPs or not. Teaming up to join Wade will seriously hurt his legacy in the end. All the other top10 players lead their team to championships as the undisputed #1. Lebron is barely in the top3 on his team come fourth quarter/closing time.
Do not forget that both Kobe and LeBron have been Finals Runner Ups 2x which is very impressive.
lol not sure if serious. Runner-up means nothing. If it did Wilt would be undisputed GOAT since he was "runner-up"(loser in the finals) 7+ teams in his career, the majority of which was to Russell.
Let's not give any credit to Kobe '01 title in which he had 2 playoff series in which he averaged
33/7/7/51% - WCF vs San Antonio
35/9/4/47% - 2nd Round vs Sacramento
Absolutely no relevance to anything I said, which is why you can't be taken seriously.
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 03:41 PM
Absolutely no relevance to anything I said, which is why you can't be taken seriously.
You can't be taken seriously because you dismiss Kobe's first 3 rings, saying that Lebron is comparable with the imaginary 2 rings, when Kobe has 5 real ones.
You can't be taken seriously because you dismiss Kobe's first 3 rings, saying that Lebron is comparable with the imaginary 2 rings, when Kobe has 5 real ones.
I'm more knowledgable and partial than you. And I admitted Kobe's 5 rings, so even more proof your input means nothing to me.
If it did Wilt would be undisputed GOAT since he was "runner-up"(loser in the finals) 7+ teams in his career, the majority of which was to Russell.
Wilt was on 4 finals losers.
San Francisco Warriors '64
LA Lakers '69, '70, '73
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 03:54 PM
I'm more knowledgable and partial than you. And I admitted Kobe's 5 rings, so even more proof your input means nothing to me.
How are you more knowledgeable than me? lol
Sorry bro, but Kobe is better than your boy Yimmy
Streetballer
04-18-2012, 03:55 PM
Great Post but no way in the WORLD does Eli Manning belong in the group of players you listed. NO WAY IN THE WORLD !!!!!!!!!!!
Because When the Giants Need Big Plays Eli Always Step up!!!!
By Not Making Mistakes, And Lead his team To Winning Drives..
Just saying!! His Play Speaks for itself..Not Saying he's An All time Great !! But I was Just using him as An Example!!
Apogee
04-18-2012, 04:31 PM
Lets have him win one first please. Im a heat fan but seriously this pisses me off.. The playoffs haven't even started and people making these threads. Im all for it and think he would atleast rank top 10 but lets get that first ring before we get all excited.
tpols
04-18-2012, 04:54 PM
That is true. But to say that LeBron with 2 titles and 2 Finals MVPs isn't at least comparable to Kobe is insane. Outside of number of total rings, they'd be very comparable and that's with LeBron doing it in less time.
Lets say Lebron averages his usual 26-27/8/8 throughout the playoffs for two rings. Kobe has put up comparable averages to titles.. what? 4 times? 29/7/6 in 01.. 30/5/6 in 09, 29/5/5 in 10.. 27/6/5 in 02.. Kobe has put up FOUR playoff runs leading to titles with comparable impact to Lebron's two in this hypothetical.
The only argument I can see for bron being ranked higher in this situation is if you look at his regular season accomplishments. But Kobe had the bulk of his prime either competing with Garnett, Duncan and Shaq for MVPs or on bad teams where he couldnt get that 1-2 seed to be in contention. Lebron's competing with Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant right now as well as old Kobe.. his competition for the award is laughable in comparison.
DMAVS41
04-18-2012, 05:02 PM
Lets say Lebron averages his usual 26-27/8/8 throughout the playoffs for two rings. Kobe has put up comparable averages to titles.. what? 4 times? 29/7/6 in 01.. 30/5/6 in 09, 29/5/5 in 10.. 27/6/5 in 02.. Kobe has put up FOUR playoff runs leading to titles with comparable impact to Lebron's two in this hypothetical.
The only argument I can see for bron being ranked higher in this situation is if you look at his regular season accomplishments. But Kobe had the bulk of his prime either competing with Garnett, Duncan and Shaq for MVPs or on bad teams where he couldnt get that 1-2 seed to be in contention. Lebron's competing with Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant right now as well as old Kobe.. his competition for the award is laughable in comparison.
Yea. Last year if Lebron had closed the deal in the finals and won finals mvp it would be a different story. But that performance should be and will be forever a black mark on his legacy.
After that, he needs a lot more than 2 titles to match Kobe.
AlphaWolf24
04-18-2012, 05:13 PM
Ahead of.....
Magic?....Nope
Jordan?...Nope
Kareem?..Nope
Russell?...Nope
Kobe?.....Nope
Bird?.......Nope
Duncan?...Nope
Shaq?......Nope
Wilt?.......Nope
Oscar?....hmmm...Nope
Dream?....maybe...
....yeah prolly #11 - 12...
EDIT:....oh! yeah.....he left 2 60 win teams with HCA!...then put up the biggest choke job n NBA History...
they negate each other so he would be at 0 instead of -2....
(new elite formula I made up)
G-Funk
04-18-2012, 05:17 PM
11-15
Lets say Lebron averages his usual 26-27/8/8 throughout the playoffs for two rings. Kobe has put up comparable averages to titles.. what? 4 times? 29/7/6 in 01.. 30/5/6 in 09, 29/5/5 in 10.. 27/6/5 in 02.. Kobe has put up FOUR playoff runs leading to titles with comparable impact to Lebron's two in this hypothetical.
The only argument I can see for bron being ranked higher in this situation is if you look at his regular season accomplishments. But Kobe had the bulk of his prime either competing with Garnett, Duncan and Shaq for MVPs or on bad teams where he couldnt get that 1-2 seed to be in contention. Lebron's competing with Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant right now as well as old Kobe.. his competition for the award is laughable in comparison.
Kobe doesn't have any excuse for his lack of MVPs. Lebron won 2 over Kobe while Kobe was pretty much in his prime. Maybe it wasn't his absolute peak but its not like he was a shell of himself. And the excuses made for him not winning earlier in his career are definitely overblown.
DMAVS41
04-18-2012, 05:20 PM
Kobe doesn't have any excuse for his lack of MVPs. Lebron won 2 over Kobe while Kobe was pretty much in his prime. Maybe it wasn't his absolute peak but its not like he was a shell of himself. And the excuses made for him not winning earlier in his career are definitely overblown.
But how important are MVP's really? Nash has two. It seems to me the award is always about "new" or "better than expected" or "team" than it is about actually the best/most valuable player.
I think going down the list of which players have been actually the best players in a given year or had the best year overall...including the playoffs...is a better metric.
But regardless of how anyone feels about that. After last years pathetic performance in the finals, Lebron is going to need more than 2 titles playing with the best roster in the NBA to pass up Kobe. LOL
Heavincent
04-18-2012, 05:23 PM
Why would Lebron winning two titles on a stacked team be enough to pass Kobe? That's ridiculous.
DMAVS41
04-18-2012, 05:26 PM
Why would Lebron winning two titles on a stacked team be enough to pass Kobe? That's ridiculous.
It wouldn't be. It would have to be two of the best playoff performances of all time in order for it to be even worth a discussion.
Winning a couple titles flanked by the most stacked team in the league is not even close to surpassing Kobe on all time lists with Kobe still playing at an elite level and Lebron choking his ass off in the finals last year.
Odinn
04-18-2012, 05:29 PM
But how important are MVP's really? Nash has two. It seems to me the award is always about "new" or "better than expected" or "team" than it is about actually the best/most valuable player.
I think going down the list of which players have been actually the best players in a given year or had the best year overall...including the playoffs...is a better metric.
But regardless of how anyone feels about that. After last years pathetic performance in the finals, Lebron is going to need more than 2 titles playing with the best roster in the NBA to pass up Kobe. LOL
Actually I don't like that bolded part. I mean using number of mvps can be deceptive of course, but mvp shares pretty useful.
Kobe's career mvp shares not that great when we look at other all-time greats.
Heavincent
04-18-2012, 05:32 PM
It wouldn't be. It would have to be two of the best playoff performances of all time in order for it to be even worth a discussion.
Winning a couple titles flanked by the most stacked team in the league is not even close to surpassing Kobe on all time lists with Kobe still playing at an elite level and Lebron choking his ass off in the finals last year.
If Lebron doesn't win it all this year, his chances of making it into the top 10 (or even top 15) are pretty much over. Would you agree with that?
DMAVS41
04-18-2012, 05:33 PM
Actually I don't like that bolded part. I mean using number of mvps can be deceptive of course, but mvp shares pretty useful.
Kobe's career mvp shares not that great when we look at other all-time greats.
I'm asking the question. How important are MVP's? Are they more important than actually being the best player or having the best year?
Its just a question that I think needs answering before we get into this whole....Lebron has 3 mvps and Kobe only has 1 thing.
Just like the ring arguments.
It all needs to be put into context based on circumstances.
Some players, like Lebron, have simply had great chances to win the MVP than Kobe. While Kobe has had far greater chances to win titles than a lot of players.
I think that matters more than just a tally.
DMAVS41
04-18-2012, 05:34 PM
If Lebron doesn't win it all this year, his chances of making it into the top 10 (or even top 15) are pretty much over. Would you agree with that?
No. Lebron will finish in the top 15 pretty much no matter what in my opinion. Certainly you could never close the door on top 15 after this year. That is silly.
Just look at some of the guys 11 to 15. Moses, Dr. J, Baylor, West, Hondo....in no way is Lebron removed from jumping those guys if he loses this year.
Legends66NBA7
04-18-2012, 05:36 PM
Kobe's career mvp shares not that great when we look at other all-time greats.
Kobe Braynt is 10th all-time currently in MVP Shares. Consensus ranks him Top 10.
I don't see how it's not great or not comparable.
gengiskhan
04-18-2012, 05:40 PM
12th. That's if he wins the Finals MVP both times.
no wonder why you're such a deeek riding kobe'tard.
Lebron has 2 dominant MVPs over kobe's 1 consolidation MVP
Lebron matches kobe with 2 FMVP, he is well above kobe in ranking as kobe descends further closer to that Top 15th position.
Kobe also missing "rookie of the year" title. Lebron got that over Melo.
If 2007 & 2007 finals losses will be counting against Lebron, so will 2004 & 2008 finals losses for Kobe.
Lebron is due for another MVP looks like, he'll be well above Kobe in all time ranking.
G-Funk
04-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Kobe doesn't have any excuse for his lack of MVPs. Lebron won 2 over Kobe while Kobe was pretty much in his prime. Maybe it wasn't his absolute peak but its not like he was a shell of himself. And the excuses made for him not winning earlier in his career are definitely overblown.
yeah the excuse was cause his team was "too stacked" but now its ok to have a stacked team like the Heat right?
yeah the excuse was cause his team was "too stacked" but now its ok to have a stacked team like the Heat right?
The main excuse was Lebron was clearly better then him in the regular season at least.
RazorBaLade
04-18-2012, 06:00 PM
Kobe doesn't have any excuse for his lack of MVPs. Lebron won 2 over Kobe while Kobe was pretty much in his prime. Maybe it wasn't his absolute peak but its not like he was a shell of himself. And the excuses made for him not winning earlier in his career are definitely overblown.
Can we really blame kobe for not having that good of a team in the years he was the clear candidate? It's not like we can compare the talent of those cavs teams to the smush era of LA.
Put pau on his team in 06 07... Best record in the league. He's going for a 3 peat in 08 and maybe winning in 09 as well off reputation.
MVP is fickle.
Can we really blame kobe for not having that good of a team in the years he was the clear candidate? It's not like we can compare the talent of those cavs teams to the smush era of LA.
Put pau on his team in 06 07... Best record in the league. He's going for a 3 peat in 08 and maybe winning in 09 as well off reputation.
MVP is fickle.
He's been an elite player for 12-13 seasons now and had a bad team for only 3 seasons. Just because he had a bad team at his ABSOLUTE best doesn't really mean much.
lilgodfather1
04-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Two titles & FMVP's to go along with 4 MVP's? That is a great case for top 6 all time, better than Bird, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan for sure, and I think a case could be made for him to be put ahead of Shaq.
If LeBron continues similar stats to his current pace (let's say an average of 25/6/6 to be fair) until he is 32 (4 seasons + the rest of this one) his three main stats would be (approximately of course) 27,546 points, 6,734 assists, and 6,915 rebounds. This would put him 7th all time in points scored, and 17th all time in assists.
After that LeBron "drops off a cliff" in production and can only manage an average of 16/5/5 until he is 37 (5 seasons). That would make his final career totals 34,106 points, 8,784 assists, and 8,965 rebounds. That would make him 8th in assists, and 3rd in points.
RazorBaLade
04-18-2012, 06:28 PM
He's been an elite player for 12-13 seasons now and had a bad team for only 3 seasons. Just because he had a bad team at his ABSOLUTE best doesn't really mean much.
How many people have won MVP's outside of their ABSOLUTE best years? There's usually some pretty fierce competition and you can't just stumble your way into an mvp, usually.
It takes a great year and usually it even takes a different star to have a not so good year, AND for your team to be better than his team. Luck. What is the difference between nash this year and nash 5 years ago? Like 2 pts and 1 ast? Cmon. But he can't win it because his team sucks. Why is that a knock on nash's greatness?
Bron would be sitting on 3 and possibly going on 4 MVP's if he stayed in Cle. Kobe would have 3 MVP's if the gasol deal was 2 years earlier. Nash wouldn't have any MVP's. Rose has an MVP because lebron went to miami. What a great award. If something is so ridiculously situational, does it mean anything? They wouldn't actually be better or worse players from a physical standpoint if things happened differently.
It's just a really crappy trophy that you can only win by being the best player on a team with a good record AND the other great players in the league need to be either a worse story or on a worse team. Thats the only way you win.
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 07:01 PM
Two titles & FMVP's to go along with 4 MVP's? That is a great case for top 6 all time, better than Bird, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan for sure, and I think a case could be made for him to be put ahead of Shaq.
If LeBron continues similar stats to his current pace (let's say an average of 25/6/6 to be fair) until he is 32 (4 seasons + the rest of this one) his three main stats would be (approximately of course) 27,546 points, 6,734 assists, and 6,915 rebounds. This would put him 7th all time in points scored, and 17th all time in assists.
After that LeBron "drops off a cliff" in production and can only manage an average of 16/5/5 until he is 37 (5 seasons). That would make his final career totals 34,106 points, 8,784 assists, and 8,965 rebounds. That would make him 8th in assists, and 3rd in points.
How the **** would 2 titles pass up Bird (3), Kobe (5), Duncan (4), Shaq (4) ?
:oldlol:
And how would 2 ring with Wade and Bosh be better than Hakeem's 2 rings?
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 07:03 PM
Kobe Braynt is 10th all-time currently in MVP Shares. Consensus ranks him Top 10.
I don't see how it's not great or not comparable.
He also has the 5th most top 5 finishes in MVP voting
14 - Kareem
11 - Russell
10 - Jordan, Wilt
9 - Kobe, Bird, Magic, Oscar, Duncan
http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/NBA/top5mvps.txt
Fudge
04-18-2012, 07:04 PM
Two titles & FMVP's to go along with 4 MVP's? That is a great case for top 6 all time, better than Bird, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan for sure, and I think a case could be made for him to be put ahead of Shaq.
If LeBron continues similar stats to his current pace (let's say an average of 25/6/6 to be fair) until he is 32 (4 seasons + the rest of this one) his three main stats would be (approximately of course) 27,546 points, 6,734 assists, and 6,915 rebounds. This would put him 7th all time in points scored, and 17th all time in assists.
After that LeBron "drops off a cliff" in production and can only manage an average of 16/5/5 until he is 37 (5 seasons). That would make his final career totals 34,106 points, 8,784 assists, and 8,965 rebounds. That would make him 8th in assists, and 3rd in points.
Wow.
:facepalm :oldlol:
Odinn
04-18-2012, 07:05 PM
Kobe Braynt is 10th all-time currently in MVP Shares. Consensus ranks him Top 10.
I don't see how it's not great or not comparable.
But not generally 10th.
Kobe's career mvp share lower than his rivals Shaq and Duncan with a considerable margin. (Probably that margin will be smaller at the end of current season, but still will stay "considerable")
Also I said mvp shares are useful but with the context. Let's not forget that before 1981 the ratio of 1st place votes was directly player's mvp share. Moses Malone's share would be higher. Kareem probably would lead in this category again.
PS: I said not "that" great. Not "not great".
Bigsmoke
04-18-2012, 07:05 PM
depends how well he played in the process.
I'm not going to put him above Hakeem Olajuwon if were to let Bosh and Wade carry him for those 2 titles.
talkingconch
04-18-2012, 07:05 PM
no wonder why you're such a deeek riding kobe'tard.
Lebron has 2 dominant MVPs over kobe's 1 consolidation MVP
Lebron matches kobe with 2 FMVP, he is well above kobe in ranking as kobe descends further closer to that Top 15th position.
Kobe also missing "rookie of the year" title. Lebron got that over Melo.
If 2007 & 2007 finals losses will be counting against Lebron, so will 2004 & 2008 finals losses for Kobe.
Lebron is due for another MVP looks like, he'll be well above Kobe in all time ranking.
Read this post:
It wouldn't be. It would have to be two of the best playoff performances of all time in order for it to be even worth a discussion.
Winning a couple titles flanked by the most stacked team in the league is not even close to surpassing Kobe on all time lists with Kobe still playing at an elite level and Lebron choking his ass off in the finals last year.
SpecialQue
04-18-2012, 07:11 PM
hey what if lebron won all the championships mvps and fmvps from now until retirement where would he rank i wonder
How many people have won MVP's outside of their ABSOLUTE best years? There's usually some pretty fierce competition and you can't just stumble your way into an mvp, usually.
Ummm well every MVP that has won multiple MVPs obviously have i.e. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Malone, Nash, Lebron etc. And you can definitely argue that some of the other 1x MVPs did as well such as Oscar, Walton, Dr. J, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, AI, Dirk, and Kobe himself. And another thing, there's also been a good amount of other seasons from players that were better then Kobe's 06 season that didn't win MVP either.
It takes a great year and usually it even takes a different star to have a not so good year, AND for your team to be better than his team. Luck. What is the difference between nash this year and nash 5 years ago? Like 2 pts and 1 ast? Cmon. But he can't win it because his team sucks. Why is that a knock on nash's greatness?
Bron would be sitting on 3 and possibly going on 4 MVP's if he stayed in Cle. Kobe would have 3 MVP's if the gasol deal was 2 years earlier. Nash wouldn't have any MVP's. Rose has an MVP because lebron went to miami. What a great award. If something is so ridiculously situational, does it mean anything? They wouldn't actually be better or worse players from a physical standpoint if things happened differently.
It's just a really crappy trophy that you can only win by being the best player on a team with a good record AND the other great players in the league need to be either a worse story or on a worse team. Thats the only way you win.
I'm not arguing if the award is crappy or not or based on some stupid criteria. All I'm saying is this idea that Kobe hasn't had many great chances to win it is greatly overblown and not true at all, which is what I responded to. For the most part, he only has one because other players had a better case.
And by the way, not sure what you meant by your previous comment, but yes it is greatly Kobe's fault that he had a crappy supporting cast in his best years.
lilgodfather1
04-18-2012, 07:43 PM
How the **** would 2 titles pass up Bird (3), Kobe (5), Duncan (4), Shaq (4) ?
:oldlol:
And how would 2 ring with Wade and Bosh be better than Hakeem's 2 rings?
The same reason that MJ is considered the GOAT even though he has less titles than Bill Russell. LeBron's 4 MVP's is better than all of those players totals, and his career numbers would also be better in this hypothetical world. If Championships are all that matters then the list starts with Russell and Horry, if championships are only a part of rankings then LeBron would be above those four players, and possibly Shaq.
Odinn
04-18-2012, 07:49 PM
The same reason that MJ is considered the GOAT even though he has less titles than Bill Russell. LeBron's 4 MVP's is better than all of those players totals, and his career numbers would also be better in this hypothetical world. If Championships are all that matters then the list starts with Russell and Horry, if championships are only a part of rankings then LeBron would be above those four players, and possibly Shaq.
To be ranked that high, LeBron needs to make an all-time great playoff run such as Hakeem's 1994 or 1995, Duncan's 2003, Shaq's 2000. He has to show he can win with the least. Otherwise he will get criticized like Kobe.
SpecialQue
04-18-2012, 07:53 PM
Here's an image that sums up my thoughts on this thread:
http://i.imgur.com/jKnGp.gif
RazorBaLade
04-18-2012, 07:54 PM
Ummm well every MVP that has won multiple MVPs obviously have i.e. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Malone, Nash, Lebron etc. And you can definitely argue that some of the other 1x MVPs did as well such as Oscar, Walton, Dr. J, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, AI, Dirk, and Kobe himself. And another thing, there's also been a good amount of other seasons from players that were better then Kobe's 06 season that didn't win MVP either.
I'm not arguing if the award is crappy or not or based on some stupid criteria. All I'm saying is this idea that Kobe hasn't had many great chances to win it is greatly overblown and not true at all, which is what I responded to. For the most part, he only has one because other players had a better case.
And by the way, not sure what you meant by your previous comment, but yes it is greatly Kobe's fault that he had a crappy supporting cast in his best years.
How is not true? You haven't explained why Kobe and nash etc should be punished for not having good teams when the rest of the stage was set for them to win. Its completely situational, What more did you want from Kobe in 06? He would have needed to score like 42 pts on 50% for them to get to the Suns 60 wins. But was he not the best player that year and could have easily won it with his 35 on 45% stats if instead of kwame they had current bynum? So why is that a black mark on his legacy? Is rose's MVP as impressive as any of lebrons? Not all MVps are equal and to take it even further, MVP's are won simply by a right time right place stroke of luck and have nothing to do with basketball skill as long as you are a T5 NBA player that year. You just have to be T5 and the rest is completely out of your hands because by BEING a T5 player you've already done all you can for your teams record. EXPLAIN why you disagree with that.
Kobe has NOT had many great chances to win it, he's only had about two. 08 and 09. One didn't go his way just because that year there was a better regular season from lebron. Doesn't make kobes season worse. It's not going to be a knock on lebron for not winning it this year for the same reason.
Hmm well it isn't completely his fault. The team with shaq ran its course and the best lakers FO could do for in prime shaq was kwame brown and lamar odom. At the time it might not have been that bad , kwame a 1st rd pick etc but obviously it worked out really poorly and Kobe was the only that had a t5 team while he was a top 5 player for 2 years.
Deuce Bigalow
04-18-2012, 07:56 PM
To be ranked that high, LeBron needs to make an all-time great playoff run such as Hakeem's 1994 or 1995, Duncan's 2003, Shaq's 2000. He has to show he can win with the least. Otherwise he will get criticized like Kobe.
Kobe's 2009 Playoffs had the highest PPG difference between the #1 scorer (Kobe) and the #2 scorer on championship teams in the 2000s and 2010s decades
Difference between 1st and 2nd scorers on championship teams in the playoffs(00's/10')
2009 Lakers- 11.9 ppg difference
1.Kobe- 30.2 ppg
2.Gasol- 18.3 ppg
2011 Mavs- 10.2 ppg difference
1.Dirk- 27.7 ppg
2.Jason Terry- 17.5 ppg
2003 Spurs- 10 ppg difference
1.Duncan- 24.7 ppg
2.Parker- 14.7 ppg
2006 Heat- 10 ppg difference
1.Wade- 28.4 ppg
2.Shaq- 18.4 ppg
2000 Lakers- 9.6 ppg difference
1.Shaq- 30.7 ppg
2.Kobe- 21.1 ppg
2010 Lakers- 9.6 ppg difference
1.Kobe- 29.2 ppg
2.Gasol- 19.6 ppg
2004 Pistons- 5.1 ppg difference
Hamilton- 21.5 ppg
Billups- 16.4 ppg
2005 Spurs- 2.8 ppg difference
Duncan- 23.6 ppg
Manu- 20.8 ppg
2002 Lakers- 1.9 ppg difference
Shaq- 28.5 ppg
Kobe- 26.6 ppg
2007 Spurs- 1.4 ppg difference
Duncan- 22.2 ppg
Parker- 20.8 ppg
2001 Lakers- 1 ppg difference
Shaq- 30.4 ppg
Kobe- 29.4 ppg
2008 Celtics- 0.7 ppg
Garnett- 20.4 ppg
Pierce- 19.7 ppg
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227073
Another thing about Kobe's 2009 run was that he had the highest assists per game difference at 3.0. highest PPG and assist difference in the playoffs on a championship team for the 00s/10s decade :bowdown:
Odinn
04-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Kobe's 2009 Playoffs had the highest PPG difference between the #1 scorer (Kobe) and the #2 scorer in the 2000s and 2010s decades
Difference between 1st and 2nd scorers on championship teams in the playoffs(00's/10')
2009 Lakers- 11.9 ppg difference
1.Kobe- 30.2 ppg
2.Gasol- 18.3 ppg
2011 Mavs- 10.2 ppg difference
1.Dirk- 27.7 ppg
2.Jason Terry- 17.5 ppg
2003 Spurs- 10 ppg difference
1.Duncan- 24.7 ppg
2.Parker- 14.7 ppg
2006 Heat- 10 ppg difference
1.Wade- 28.4 ppg
2.Shaq- 18.4 ppg
2000 Lakers- 9.6 ppg difference
1.Shaq- 30.7 ppg
2.Kobe- 21.1 ppg
2010 Lakers- 9.6 ppg difference
1.Kobe- 29.2 ppg
2.Gasol- 19.6 ppg
2004 Pistons- 5.1 ppg difference
Hamilton- 21.5 ppg
Billups- 16.4 ppg
2005 Spurs- 2.8 ppg difference
Duncan- 23.6 ppg
Manu- 20.8 ppg
2002 Lakers- 1.9 ppg difference
Shaq- 28.5 ppg
Kobe- 26.6 ppg
2007 Spurs- 1.4 ppg difference
Duncan- 22.2 ppg
Parker- 20.8 ppg
2001 Lakers- 1 ppg difference
Shaq- 30.4 ppg
Kobe- 29.4 ppg
2008 Celtics- 0.7 ppg
Garnett- 20.4 ppg
Pierce- 19.7 ppg
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227073
Why are you so sensitive about Kobe?:facepalm
Based on that, you can say Kobe won with the least. Right?:oldlol:
How is not true? You haven't explained why Kobe and nash etc should be punished for not having good teams when the rest of the stage was set for them to win. Its completely situational, What more did you want from Kobe in 06? He would have needed to score like 42 pts on 50% for them to get to the Suns 60 wins. But was he not the best player that year and could have easily won it with his 35 on 45% stats if instead of kwame they had current bynum? So why is that a black mark on his legacy? Is rose's MVP as impressive as any of lebrons? Not all MVps are equal and to take it even further, MVP's are won simply by a right time right place stroke of luck and have nothing to do with basketball skill as long as you are a T5 NBA player that year. You just have to be T5 and the rest is completely out of your hands because by BEING a T5 player you've already done all you can for your teams record. EXPLAIN why you disagree with that.
I'm not really disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is that there have been many instances in NBA history where a player had a better or comparable season to Kobe and didn't win MVP cause his team wasn't good enough (actually, even seasons where the team record WAS good enough), so its hardly unfair relative to the rest of NBA history especially when you consider that Kobe still had another 9-10 years as an elite player on great teams. Alot of those other players I was referring didn't even have that many.
And if we're going to compare Kobe's 2006 season to Lebron's MVP seasons, Lebron had a better team in both years, but his 2009 team was not good at all. If we're going to argue the merit of Lebron's 2009 season in comparison to Kobe's 2006, if Lebron could get that team to 66 wins, Kobe should've at least gotten the 2006 Lakers to 52-55 wins which would've easily won him MVP before we argue that Kobe was getting treated unfairly in comparison to Lebron in 2009.
Kobe has NOT had many great chances to win it, he's only had about two. 08 and 09. One didn't go his way just because that year there was a better regular season from lebron. Doesn't make kobes season worse. It's not going to be a knock on lebron for not winning it this year for the same reason.
What? Kobe was an elite player on great teams from 2000-2004 and 2008-2012 (I'm assuming its a given he doesn't win this year). How has he only had 2 chances? If you're going to argue that outside 08 and 09 that his performance didn't merit it, then I don't see what you're arguing. What exactly was the issue from 2010-2012? I'm assuming that you're going to argue that from 2000-2004 it was cause of Shaq, but like I said, that is GREATLY overblown.
Hmm well it isn't completely his fault. The team with shaq ran its course and the best lakers FO could do for in prime shaq was kwame brown and lamar odom. At the time it might not have been that bad , kwame a 1st rd pick etc but obviously it worked out really poorly and Kobe was the only that had a t5 team while he was a top 5 player for 2 years.
I'm sure if he pushed to keep Shaq so they can still continue to compete for championships, they would've kept him. Obviously he didn't. It probably was better for them in the long run. All I'm saying is it is greatly his fault that he didn't have a great team around him in his absolute best year regardless of it being better for them in the long run.
G-Funk
04-18-2012, 08:48 PM
The main excuse was Lebron was clearly better then him in the regular season at least.
That's debatable, at the time Kobe was a better offensive player and better defender(1on1)
Lebron was the better rebounder(cuz of position) and passer.
That's debatable, at the time Kobe was a better offensive player and better defender(1on1)
Lebron was the better rebounder(cuz of position) and passer.
I disagree with some of that. I don't really think its a given Kobe was a better scorer at that time. I'm talking impact, not skills. At that time Lebron was arguably at his peak athletically able to create so many easy baskets for himself and he also was actually clutch those seasons and not the choker he is today.
Kobe may have been a better 1 on 1 defender, but I would say Lebron had greater defensive impact overall.
Drop the "position" garbage. What's next? Dwight Howard is a better rebounder then Rajon Rondo cause of "position"?
gilalizard
04-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Anything he wins on a team with prime dwhistle and prime Bosh just isn't worthy of much respect.
It's too easy for him.
SpecialQue
04-18-2012, 09:21 PM
If LBJ won a title, the MVP, and FMVP every year since being drafted, where would he rank all-time?
Also, if Jordan played baseball instead of basketball, how many world series would he win?
RazorBaLade
04-18-2012, 09:31 PM
And if we're going to compare Kobe's 2006 season to Lebron's MVP seasons, Lebron had a better team in both years, but his 2009 team was not good at all. If we're going to argue the merit of Lebron's 2009 season in comparison to Kobe's 2006, if Lebron could get that team to 66 wins, Kobe should've at least gotten the 2006 Lakers to 52-55 wins which would've easily won him MVP before we argue that Kobe was getting treated unfairly in comparison to Lebron in 2009.
There's no reason to believe a player who has nearly 10 less wins than the winner would get it.. Has that ever happened? Look at how much better bron/dirk/whatever was than rose last year and it wasn't even enough to overcome like 5 wins and a good story.
What? Kobe was an elite player on great teams from 2000-2004 and 2008-2012 (I'm assuming its a given he doesn't win this year). How has he only had 2 chances? If you're going to argue that outside 08 and 09 that his performance didn't merit it, then I don't see what you're arguing. What exactly was the issue from 2010-2012? I'm assuming that you're going to argue that from 2000-2004 it was cause of Shaq, but like I said, that is GREATLY overblown.
As I said, its also not enough to just be a t5 player on a t5 team because there are still a lot of other influences. The best player in the regular season on the 2nd best team can lose to a guy thats 4th or 5th individually on the best team in the league ala last year Lebron to Rose. It has a lot to do with competition as well. Lets look at a few years:
09-10: Lakers win 57, Cavs 61. Lebron better than Kobe. Lebron MVP.
07-8: Lakers win 57, Cavs 45, Suns 55. Kobe best in league. MVP.
So far, the best player in the league has won.
06-07: Lakers win 42, Suns 61. Kobe best in league but loses to Nash.
So now the consistency is the best player on the best team.
11-12: Who's the best team in the league right now? The spurs and the bulls are fighting for the best record right? But lebron or durant is going to win. If durant wins it wasn't the best player, if lebron wins then its the best player but not the best team so that goes against the criteria of the last few years.
Tell me that is not completely luck based and totally random and thus worthless. It is just year to year whatever is the best story. Thats ALL mvp is and there is nothing kobe himself can do because he has had plenty of years that would statistically be very solid MVP numbers. Is that not true? Why is Rose's MVP last year worth more than Kobe's 09 season? It ISN'T. Kobe's only been in a kind of cinderella esque story line once or twice or maybe 3 times at the very very most. Look at the winners.. Its always about the good story.
I'm sure if he pushed to keep Shaq so they can still continue to compete for championships, they would've kept him. Obviously he didn't. It probably was better for them in the long run. All I'm saying is it is greatly his fault that he didn't have a great team around him in his absolute best year regardless of it being better for them in the long run.
I think shaq wanted to leave too but eh yeah I think if at least kobe wanted to reconcile they would have been able to do so. So yea I agree he does kind of deserve the blame.. He definitely chose trying to win as his own man on his own team over trying to break some sort of winning records.
There's no reason to believe a player who has nearly 10 less wins than the winner would get it.. Has that ever happened? Look at how much better bron/dirk/whatever was than rose last year and it wasn't even enough to overcome like 5 wins and a good story.
The Suns won 54 games that year, so if Kobe led the Lakers to 52-55 wins, he would've most definitely won it that year. And like I said, judging Lebron and Kobe with the same standard, Lebron getting that team to 66 wins, is probably about the equivalent of Kobe getting that Laker team to 52-55 wins. So we shouldn't be talking about how Kobe's being treated unfairly relative to Lebron.
As I said, its also not enough to just be a t5 player on a t5 team because there are still a lot of other influences. The best player in the regular season on the 2nd best team can lose to a guy thats 4th or 5th individually on the best team in the league ala last year Lebron to Rose. It has a lot to do with competition as well. Lets look at a few years:
09-10: Lakers win 57, Cavs 61. Lebron better than Kobe. Lebron MVP.
07-8: Lakers win 57, Cavs 45, Suns 55. Kobe best in league. MVP.
So far, the best player in the league has won.
06-07: Lakers win 42, Suns 61. Kobe best in league but loses to Nash.
So now the consistency is the best player on the best team.
11-12: Who's the best team in the league right now? The spurs and the bulls are fighting for the best record right? But lebron or durant is going to win. If durant wins it wasn't the best player, if lebron wins then its the best player but not the best team so that goes against the criteria of the last few years.
Tell me that is not completely luck based and totally random and thus worthless. It is just year to year whatever is the best story. Thats ALL mvp is and there is nothing kobe himself can do because he has had plenty of years that would statistically be very solid MVP numbers. Is that not true? Why is Rose's MVP last year worth more than Kobe's 09 season? It ISN'T. Kobe's only been in a kind of cinderella esque story line once or twice or maybe 3 times at the very very most. Look at the winners.. Its always about the good story.
Its not luck based. Its clearly a combination of things such as team record, stats, leadership, results relative to expectations, games played, quality of teammates, etc. Because its more like a combination of things, its not really inconsistent because one might just have a greater advantage in more aspects.
I think shaq wanted to leave too but eh yeah I think if at least kobe wanted to reconcile they would have been able to do so. So yea I agree he does kind of deserve the blame.. He definitely chose trying to win as his own man on his own team over trying to break some sort of winning records.
Shaq wanted to leave once things got real ugly.
JohnnyWall
04-18-2012, 09:53 PM
He'd only need 3 more to catch up to Kobe. Not bad. :roll:
ronniec
04-19-2012, 04:27 PM
Another hypothetical LeBron thread. :facepalm
Man, you LeBron dick riders really enjoy circle jerking one another off about all the "what-ifs" in LeBron's future.
How about you focus on this season and see if he has a chance to win a title with the Miami Heat?
... Oh, wait. I forgot. Apparently LeBron's "supporting cast sucks." :rolleyes:
Totally agree.
This guy still doesn't have a ring and constantly chokes in crucial moments, and his dick riders already want to see him as one of the greats. Top 10, Top 5, even GOAT.
Sure he will be the ALL TIME CHOKER if he never gets a ring.
RazorBaLade
04-19-2012, 04:56 PM
The Suns won 54 games that year, so if Kobe led the Lakers to 52-55 wins, he would've most definitely won it that year. And like I said, judging Lebron and Kobe with the same standard, Lebron getting that team to 66 wins, is probably about the equivalent of Kobe getting that Laker team to 52-55 wins. So we shouldn't be talking about how Kobe's being treated unfairly relative to Lebron.
i think 61 bro.
Its not luck based. Its clearly a combination of things such as team record, stats, leadership, results relative to expectations, games played, quality of teammates, etc. Because its more like a combination of things, its not really inconsistent because one might just have a greater advantage in more aspects.
individually a player only has control of his stats. Leadership doesn't mean anything because a great leader on a poor team has never won, but I agree with the record/stats/resultsexpectations/qualityofteammates. So the individual player only has direct control of his stats, he can't do much else. The teammates feed into the record and the results and expectations are based on last year and addition of teammates (ie, was nash worse the year amare left than his mvp years? no, but his teammates left so he wasnt exceeding expectations with 60 win seasons anymore)..
hence it takes luck for 1)everything to go right for you outside of having good stats and 2)for a player with similar or slightly worse stats to not have the other shit outside of his control have things go better for him than they went for you.
The Suns won 54 games that year, so if Kobe led the Lakers to 52-55 wins, he would've most definitely won it that year. And like I said, judging Lebron and Kobe with the same standard, Lebron getting that team to 66 wins, is probably about the equivalent of Kobe getting that Laker team to 52-55 wins. So we shouldn't be talking about how Kobe's being treated unfairly relative to Lebron.
i think 61 bro.
54 was in 2006. 61 was in 2007 and Nash did not win MVP that year.
Its not luck based. Its clearly a combination of things such as team record, stats, leadership, results relative to expectations, games played, quality of teammates, etc. Because its more like a combination of things, its not really inconsistent because one might just have a greater advantage in more aspects.
individually a player only has control of his stats. Leadership doesn't mean anything because a great leader on a poor team has never won, but I agree with the record/stats/resultsexpectations/qualityofteammates. So the individual player only has direct control of his stats, he can't do much else. The teammates feed into the record and the results and expectations are based on last year and addition of teammates (ie, was nash worse the year amare left than his mvp years? no, but his teammates left so he wasnt exceeding expectations with 60 win seasons anymore)..
hence it takes luck for 1)everything to go right for you outside of having good stats and 2)for a player with similar or slightly worse stats to not have the other shit outside of his control have things go better for him than they went for you.
Are you serious? A player only has control on stats? He doesn't have any effect on the culture and attitude of a team, does not enhance his teammates ability, etc? Thats a very narrow point of view. If that was really how we should look at the game then a player's prime objective should always be just to rack up statistics.
Magic bird
04-20-2012, 05:30 AM
medium to late in the first ten.
nbacardDOTnet
04-20-2012, 09:05 AM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Others%20Masterpiece/0%20queen%20lebron%20james/said/9cc9d9cb.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20Lord%20Of%20The%20Rings/six-onlybucket.gif :lebroncry:
ILLsmak
04-20-2012, 09:10 AM
Two titles & FMVP's to go along with 4 MVP's? That is a great case for top 6 all time, better than Bird, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan for sure, and I think a case could be made for him to be put ahead of Shaq.
If LeBron continues similar stats to his current pace (let's say an average of 25/6/6 to be fair) until he is 32 (4 seasons + the rest of this one) his three main stats would be (approximately of course) 27,546 points, 6,734 assists, and 6,915 rebounds. This would put him 7th all time in points scored, and 17th all time in assists.
After that LeBron "drops off a cliff" in production and can only manage an average of 16/5/5 until he is 37 (5 seasons). That would make his final career totals 34,106 points, 8,784 assists, and 8,965 rebounds. That would make him 8th in assists, and 3rd in points.
I dunno man... lol. gotta come to Shaq's defense here. Shaq could have been MVP every year from 94-95 (of course, barring MJ... which is a huge monkey wrench) to like 2002. And he also could have won a ton of rings. More than the 4 he already had.
When we start discussing top players of all time, you have to take into account back-to-back titles and such. 3 FMVP back to back is unheard of except, obviously, MJ.
-Smak
DMAVS41
04-20-2012, 10:05 AM
This is a good discussion. I love how its bringing a lot of logic and sense into the the Kobe Stans.
MVP's are actually very similar to Rings in a lot of ways. So much is out of a players' control for the most part. They have to have the right team and right scenario to win.
Having said that, there are certain times in which the MVP and title are both in the control of a single player.
To try and make this about today's players....
Lebron absolutely controlled who got MVP in 09 and 10. He was so much better than everyone else in the regular season that it wasn't even close. Not only with his individual play, but with his team success as well. Winning 66 in 09 and then 61 in 10 iirc with those teams and coach is truly amazing. And it wasn't just winning....it was how he won and what he produced. His numbers were amazing and the he was super clutch. I think people forget just how great Lebron was in crunch time those years. The Cavs had great records in close games and Lebron routinely dominated them.
So I'm not sure you can use the "circumstances" excuse for Lebron winning MVP those years.
However, it is clear to me that Lebron has had better chances throughout his career to win MVP than Kobe. A lot of that is luck....and some of it has to do with what type of players they are...and what the competition has been.
But Kobe Stans can't have it both ways. They can't try to rationalize Lebron having 3 MVP's now (assuming he wins it) and then throw out the 5 rings argument.
Because its abundantly clear that Kobe has had (up until this point of Lebron's career) far better chances to win titles. But luckily that is changing every year. Lebron is in his 2nd year now with the best team. No, he'll never catch Kobe in terms of teams capable of winning it all, but he's going to have great chances this year and for at least 3 or 4 more.....maybe more.
So we get to see what Lebron actually can do with elite teams around him. No more "what ifs"...which is great. We know Lebron can dominate the regular season and get you 50 plus wins with just about any team. But can he dominate the playoffs and win a ring as the best player? We don't know that yet. Can't wait to find out.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
04-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Lebron absolutely controlled who got MVP in 09 and 10. He was so much better than everyone else in the regular season that it wasn't even close.
Uh, no. This is hyperbole. In 2009, Lebron was not "so much better" than Wade and/or Kobe. Wade at worst was 1B to Lebron that year. :oldlol: Do people forget the guy became the FIRST player in NBA history to accumulate 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season? He was a BEAST that season.
c3z4r
04-20-2012, 11:30 AM
Uh, no. This is hyperbole. In 2009, Lebron was not "so much better" than Wade and/or Kobe. Wade at worst was 1B to Lebron that year. :oldlol: Do people forget the guy became the FIRST player in NBA history to accumulate 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season? He was a BEAST that season.
Yup, i really think Wade deserved the MVP in 09. Aside from the fact that he was putting up amazing numbers, people should also look at his teammates.
That Miami team was starting rookie chalmers at pg, unmotivated shawn marion for half a season at sf, udonis haslem at pf and a combination of joel anthony, jamaal magloire and the constantly injured jermaine o'neal for half a season at C, since he was acquired for shawn marion at trade deadline.
Guys like Yakhouba Diawara, Jamario moon and Daequan Cook were starting games for them. The only scoring option aside of Wade capable of putting 20+ ppg on that team was Michael Beasley, and he was also a rookie.
DMAVS41
04-20-2012, 11:36 AM
Uh, no. This is hyperbole. In 2009, Lebron was not "so much better" than Wade and/or Kobe. Wade at worst was 1B to Lebron that year. :oldlol: Do people forget the guy became the FIRST player in NBA history to accumulate 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season? He was a BEAST that season.
Well, its all within reason. 66 wins with that team? I mean...come on. Not to mention that the Cavs blew a lot of teams out while the Heat played a lot of close games.
Lebron's numbers don't even do his dominance in 09 justice in my opinion.
But you kind of speak to what I'm talking about. Lebron clearly had a better chance to win MVP than Wade....I just think Lebron was clearly deserving of it...even in arguably Wade's greatest year.
I really don't care to debate that because its not the point.
The point is that MVP's, like rings, are heavily dependent on circumstances. So you can't have someone coming in and saying "5 rings"....then turning around and discounting 3 mvp's. Or the other way. Its a total logic fail.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
04-20-2012, 12:00 PM
Yup, i really think Wade deserved the MVP in 09. Aside from the fact that he was putting up amazing numbers, people should also look at his teammates.
That Miami team was starting rookie chalmers at pg, unmotivated shawn marion for half a season at sf, udonis haslem at pf and a combination of joel anthony, jamaal magloire and the constantly injured jermaine o'neal for half a season at C, since he was acquired for shawn marion at trade deadline.
Guys like Yakhouba Diawara, Jamario moon and Daequan Cook were starting games for them. The only scoring option aside of Wade capable of putting 20+ ppg on that team was Michael Beasley, and he was also a rookie.
You know you're damned good when MJ has your vote lol. Outside Wade, they were garbage dude, and it eventually took a toll on his body playing with injuries (http://www.topix.com/forum/nba/atlanta-hawks/TRT5JEJK2E7VI10N1) in that series vs Atlanta.
Well, its all within reason. 66 wins with that team? I mean...come on. Not to mention that the Cavs blew a lot of teams out while the Heat played a lot of close games.
Lebron's numbers don't even do his dominance in 09 justice in my opinion.
But you kind of speak to what I'm talking about. Lebron clearly had a better chance to win MVP than Wade....I just think Lebron was clearly deserving of it...even in arguably Wade's greatest year.
I really don't care to debate that because its not the point.
The point is that MVP's, like rings, are heavily dependent on circumstances. So you can't have someone coming in and saying "5 rings"....then turning around and discounting 3 mvp's. Or the other way. Its a total logic fail.
Right. I agree with your overall premise; it's just that D-Wade was no worse than Lebron if we're talking regular season play. When you include the postseason, well, Lebron was clearly better.
nbacardDOTnet
04-21-2012, 06:43 PM
:lebroncry: http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Others%20Masterpiece/0%20queen%20lebron%20james/lbj-kb-mj-bkonly.jpg
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