Kblaze

[eliteballer]

In 1993 a player at the 5 would have to play......


Shaq
Hakeem
Drob
Ewing
Zo
Smits
Seikaly(17/12 at the time)
Willis(18/13)
Mutombo(14/13/4 blocks)
Daugherty(20/11 that year)

And thats sitting aside a few guy every bit as good as a number of all star centers these days. Horford, Magloire, Big Z, and Hibbert types...no better than a guy like Vlade in his prime..shit Pervis Ellisons bum ass was doing numbers. Roy Hibbert just made the ASG doing the same numbers Parish was doing in 93 at age 39. But im sitting guys like that aside......

Just off my first list.....a center dropped into that league is playing 10 guys who are all NBA level now. Not like...all NBA in a maybe sorta kinda way. 10 guys who are flat out GOING to make an all nba team over whoever you think is the third best center....at least 9 if you wanna go with Marc Gasol, Hibbert, or Noah over Smits or Seikaly. But really...Dwights current season puts him what...all nba 4th team if voters ignored that Shaq on a bad team was flat out better than Dwight is now?

We are talking about 24 games vs players who would be elite centers now and 30 something vs guys on the level of a Noah, Gasol, or Gortat type who you at least have to be up for and might get outplayed by even if you are a legit good bigman.

Dwight plays 2 nights a season vs a center he can expect to give him 20. 2. Bynum games. Roy Hibbert has had back to back 20 point games once in his career and hes the biggest threat to score Dwight is a lock to play several times.

You could add guys who have been called power forwards for nearly 10 years like Amare, KG, Paul, and Jefferson but unless we are going into the 90s 4s who got PT at the 5 I dont see why. Besides Dwight doesnt usually guard them much anyway.

Far as straight up center matchups...Dwight has to be concerned about the output of his opponent 2-5 times a year tops and thats pretending any team is worried about Roy Hibbert or Marc Gasol lighting them up.

That is a huge difference between dozens of legit star/star matchups. The Pacers had years with 3 guys on their lineups all in their primes who either would have or did make all star games from 2000-04.

The difference isnt overstated at all.

Its night and day.

Dwight isnt likely to get really lit up if he doesnt give his all more than 3-4 times a season. He might have 30 dropped on him 5 times in one road trip in the 90s.

He played like 3 games the last couple years vs anyone nearly his equal. He would be playing guys as good or better like 20 percent of his games in the 90s...


Lets take a random look, guys who were worth a damn strictly off the stat sheet

95

Shaq
Hakeem
Drob
Ewing
Zo
Mutombo
Seikaly
Divac
Willis
Bradley
Polynice
Smits
Benjamin( :oldlol: )
Muresan
Montross(:oldlol: )
O Miller(:oldlol: )

2012

Dwight
Horford
Monroe
Lopez
Gortat
A Jefferson
Nene
M Gasol
Noah
Kaman
Bynum
Pekovic
McGee
D Jordan
Duncan
Hibbert
Chandler
Bogut
Cousins

Thats just about all of the guys who are mostly playing center who are worth a damn on the stat sheet. You take out the top 5 guys, and there is not a hell of a lot of difference, let alone night and day between depth and quality. You just got stiffs left on both ends. There's always been stiffs manning the majority of the center(starting and backup) spots in the league.

[JohnnySic]

You forgot Brad Daugherty. 20/10 in 1993.

[NumberSix]

Bladers

[Kblaze8855]

Where did 95 come from?

Anyway....

You say take out the top players as if thats a valid point. Take out 5 hall of fame level guys impact wise and depending on where the player in question plays you remove up to a quarter of the season being against outstanding players. Dwight plays 1 player a season who can be expected to outplay him if hes not on top of his game. 1 or 2 games. Hed be playing 20 or more in the 90s.

That is not a tiny difference.

Dwight does not have real rivals. He has Bynum for 65 minutes a year.

Thats not 4 vs Ewing, 4 vs Shaq, 4 vs Zo, 4 vs Mutombo, 2 vs Hakeem, 2 vs Drob, and then depending on the year Daugherty, Smits(on a team with 3 all star centers from 99-03 all of them in their primes), Willis and others if im gonna call tall 4s who play the 5 a good bit centers.

I like Dwight. Always have. Im just not gonna pretend that 65-70 minutes a season of legit "Might be better than me...." competition is the same as having that 20% of the time.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and for 95 id include Dino Radja who would probably be the 3rd best center in the league right now depending on what you wanted to call a couple 4/5 guys like Amare who at the moment plays with Chandler and Jefferson who last I saw played center but spent years as a 4 and has done a lot of both.

A lot of guys who nobody cared about in the 90s would be flat out all stars now.

How many current centers have even had back to back 30/10 games? Or 7 in one season like Big Country has? Or had 39/18? 41/12? 3 straight games of 30 to 35 points? Reeves did. He rarely did it vs good players(one or two big games vs Ewing) but he feasted on the same kinda guys Dwight beats up on.

We have all star centers who dont have 7 30 point games in 5 year careers....guys in the 90s nobody cared about might have 10 in a season. It was a different game.

We have more top flight swingmen in the 2000s. 80s/90s had centers.

[Alan]

2012

Dwight
Horford
Monroe
Lopez
Gortat
A Jefferson
Nene
M Gasol
Noah
Kaman
Bynum
Pekovic
McGee
D Jordan
Duncan
Hibbert
Chandler
Bogut
Cousins



Bolded guys are offensively challenged, so adding them won't help you prove your case.

And then you add guys like Pekovic and Cousins who have played reasonably well for maximum of half a season. I don't know many of the old-timers but I'm pretty sure they weren't playing well for just a season.

[Owl]

Where did 95 come from?

Anyway....

You say take out the top players as if thats a valid point. Take out 5 hall of fame level guys impact wise and depending on where the player in question plays you remove up to a quarter of the season being against outstanding players. Dwight plays 1 player a season who can be expected to outplay him if hes not on top of his game. 1 or 2 games. Hed be playing 20 or more in the 90s.

That is not a tiny difference.

Dwight does not have real rivals. He has Bynum for 65 minutes a year.

Thats not 4 vs Ewing, 4 vs Shaq, 4 vs Zo, 4 vs Mutombo, 2 vs Hakeem, 2 vs Drob, and then depending on the year Daugherty, Smits(on a team with 3 all star centers from 99-03 all of them in their primes), Willis and others if im gonna call tall 4s who play the 5 a good bit centers.

I like Dwight. Always have. Im just not gonna pretend that 65-70 minutes a season of legit "Might be better than me...." competition is the same as having that 20% of the time.
Not sure what bolded means. Could you clarify?

Also I'm not sure of the original context of the debate but your big man appears to be playing in an eastern conference which simultaneously contains Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo.

Additionally as you have listed all the elite big men its harsh to suggest Howard has only one elite big man rival (thereby not counting Dwight himself), yet your (hypothetical?) big is playing all the top big men (and thus everyone is counted as a rival).

Anyway without knowing the context in which your original post was posted it generally seems valid (I'd have Dwight ahead of Ewing but behind Shaq) in so far as there was much more elite competition in the the mid 90s at the center position (greatest era for centers imo, followed by 70s).

But the other poster does have valid points too, that the present crop of centers is (off the top of my head) surely stronger than it has been in over a decade. Few superstars, yes, but a lot of good, could be an all-star type level big men.

[Teanett]

Not sure what bolded means. Could you clarify?

Also I'm not sure of the original context of the debate but your big man appears to be playing in an eastern conference which simultaneously contains Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo.


smits played with antonio and dale davis, all three of them were all-star centers.

you are dumb but young, therefore you are forgiven.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea I meant Dale, Smits, and Antionio all of them all stars late in or past their primes. They played together in the 23-30 range age wise.

And my bad on Mutombo. I was thinking of him on the Hawks not Nuggets. So its 2 mutombo not 4. Either way its around a quarter of all games vs a legit star player vs 2 today(maybe throw in Al Jefferson...but if we do we gotta add some 90s guys who were just as productive who iven ot counted so far). And Dwight has not really been at his best vs most of his big matchups. People used to make fun of him over Yao matchups.

He really doesnt have anyone to get up for anymore other than Bynum. Thats the only matchup anyone is asking "Who is best...." about. And most still say its him.

He doesnt really have to prove himself vs anyone of note.

[Owl]

smits played with antonio and dale davis, all three of them were all-star centers.

you are dumb but young, therefore you are forgiven.
Dale and Antonio Davis were both power forwards (both were capable of playing the 5 but were overmatched if doing so). All 3 were also marginal all-stars (once each). Antonio was in only as a replacement for injured Theo Ratliff in 2001 (http://www.nba.com/history/allstar/injury_replacements.html)
From the year 2000 (the quote says 99-03) NONE of those players played together. In '99 Antonio was traded to Toronto for the 5th pick Jonathan Bender. In 2000 Dale Davis was traded to Portland for Jermaine O'Neal and finally Smits retired in 2000.

You are wrong, but despite this and your absurd condescention you are forgiven.

[Kblaze8855]

You think I thought they were together in 03?

I said they were all stars or would have been in that range. Dale made it, Davis made it on the Raptors, and Smits was on his way out but was an all star level player with the others which is what I said. 3 guys were in their primes together...and all of them were all stars. Though 2 only made it when the rest of the good centers fell off.

And Dale Davis was overmatched vs centers? Dale Davis was like 6'11'' 260 in his prime and a physical beast who was tough as hell. Nobody would be upset if they had to have Davis defend any bigman of the last 30 years. He would get outplayed by the greats but hes not like...someone you need to hide. Dale was still defending Shaq deep into the 2000s....and I mean like 2006.

Dale would play lots of centers as much as or more than Smits. This was not that long ago.....

[ILLsmak]

I think I have a pretty good idea of the C position in that timeframe because I used to live in IL and we'd watch all of the Bulls games as a family.

A Good C would **** the Bulls. Luc Longley wasn't horrible, but he was a good "average" benchmark.

Willis was a PF/C but dude was an absolute monster. I bet he could bang w/ Dwight. DUDE WAS IN THE NBA AT AGE 44.

http://www.nba.com/hawks/photos/HWK_Classic_Willis_13.jpg


-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

If you go watch some of Kevins early 90s highlights it pretty much looks like Dwight. Both of them are/were at times 4/5s. Dwight was a 4 playing with Darko back in the day. They are about the same size. Dwight no doubt has wingspan and jumps higher but Willis was a beast on the boards and physical as hell. And for like 5 years all either could do was a sweeping hook or dunk on someone.

Dwight is better of course....but Willis is the closest thing to him from that era.

[Owl]

Yea I meant Dale, Smits, and Antionio all of them all stars late in or past their primes. They played together in the 23-30 range age wise.

And my bad on Mutombo. I was thinking of him on the Hawks not Nuggets. So its 2 mutombo not 4. Either way its around a quarter of all games vs a legit star player vs 2 today(maybe throw in Al Jefferson...but if we do we gotta add some 90s guys who were just as productive who iven ot counted so far). And Dwight has not really been at his best vs most of his big matchups. People used to make fun of him over Yao matchups.

He really doesnt have anyone to get up for anymore other than Bynum. Thats the only matchup anyone is asking "Who is best...." about. And most still say its him.

He doesnt really have to prove himself vs anyone of note.
Don't generally disagree (except unless their was a genuine prior characterisation of the Davis' and Smits as some elite monster big man which would only be the case if you spliced Smits' height, Dale's physique, Antonio's hops, Smits' shooting touch and either Davis's defense/intensity).

I would add that Yao was a matchup headache for everyone and Dwight wasn't at his peak for most of their matchups, and they didn't play that many games.

Because of this you could argue that better competition might lead to a more motivated, more offensively versatile (what he's doing now generally works so he hasn't changed it) and better Dwight (albeit with maybe worse numbers depending on who he was playing for, which centers he matched up against and pace).

But as stated before definitely agree that Dwight doesn't have as many elite competitors as Robinson or Hakeem etc

[ILLsmak]

If you go watch some of Kevins early 90s highlights it pretty much looks like Dwight. Both of them are/were at times 4/5s. Dwight was a 4 playing with Darko back in the day. They are about the same size. Dwight no doubt has wingspan and jumps higher but Willis was a beast on the boards and physical as hell. And for like 5 years all either could do was a sweeping hook or dunk on someone.

Dwight is better of course....but Willis is the closest thing to him from that era.

Yeah I agree. I think Dwight has more athleticism but IMO Kevin has a better post game...

-Smak

[Owl]

You think I thought they were together in 03?

I said they were all stars or would have been in that range. Dale made it, Davis made it on the Raptors, and Smits was on his way out but was an all star level player with the others which is what I said. 3 guys were in their primes together...and all of them were all stars. Though 2 only made it when the rest of the good centers fell off.

And Dale Davis was overmatched vs centers? Dale Davis was like 6'11'' 260 in his prime and a physical beast who was tough as hell. Nobody would be upset if they had to have Davis defend any bigman of the last 30 years. He would get outplayed by the greats but hes not like...someone you need to hide. Dale was still defending Shaq deep into the 2000s....and I mean like 2006.

Dale would play lots of centers as much as or more than Smits. This was not that long ago.....
I don't honestly know what you thought. The post was ambiguous, which is why I asked for clarification and got condescending BS (not from you, I would add).

I have made clear my feelings on the Dale, Antonio and Rik as making up an elite platoon at center, and what their all-star appearances count for.

And Dale, when playing in Indiana was not 260lbs (he's commonly listed as 230). I understand he bulked up at Portland to counter Shaq. But after leaving Indiana and bulking up he was never as good a player as he had been in Indy. Dale was a very strong power forward. That doesn't mean he was a favourable matchup at center though.

[Teanett]

I don't honestly know what you thought. The post was ambiguous, which is why I asked for clarification and got condescending BS (not from you, I would add).

I have made clear my feelings on the Dale, Antonio and Rik as making up an elite platoon at center, and what their all-star appearances count for.

And Dale, when playing in Indiana was not 260lbs (he's commonly listed as 230). I understand he bulked up at Portland to counter Shaq. But after leaving Indiana and bulking up he was never as good a player as he had been in Indy. Dale was a very strong power forward. That doesn't mean he was a favourable matchup at center though.

man, you post a whole lot of horseshit and with sugarcoating.
the point is that smits played with two other all-star quality big men which had an effect on his numbers. wether or not you feel they deserved it has no merit.
it is equivalent of hibbert playing alongside emeka okafor and elton brand.

[PTB Fan]

Dwight would have to play his @$$ against these guys, who were all great and capable centers.

[AlphaWolf24]

Lets take a random look, guys who were worth a damn strictly off the stat sheet

95

Shaq
Hakeem
Drob
Ewing
Zo
Mutombo
Seikaly
Divac
Willis
Bradley
Polynice
Smits
Benjamin( :oldlol: )
Muresan
Montross(:oldlol: )
O Miller(:oldlol: )

2012

Dwight
Horford
Monroe
Lopez
Gortat
A Jefferson
Nene
M Gasol
Noah
Kaman
Bynum
Pekovic
McGee
D Jordan
Duncan
Hibbert
Chandler
Bogut
Cousins

Thats just about all of the guys who are mostly playing center who are worth a damn on the stat sheet. You take out the top 5 guys, and there is not a hell of a lot of difference, let alone night and day between depth and quality. You just got stiffs left on both ends. There's always been stiffs manning the majority of the center(starting and backup) spots in the league.

00's
Shaq
Garnett
Duncan
Wallace
Ming
Howard

the past decade has just as many great centers as did the 90's...and when you factor in Wallace's ...00's has been a much better era of Big's....outside the bolded for the 90's the era was very weak...

all the talk about how the 90's Bigs were far better is just biased nastalgia.

[Whoah10115]

There are more good centers now than in the 90's. There isn't the same cream of the crop. But someone like Chris Kaman would be a good center in any era, and he's more like top 15 nowadays. And I wouldn't even include Noah (who I think is a PF) or Monroe (because I think he's probably a PF) or Al Jefferson (who I think is a PF).



No need to list them. Kendrick Perkins is a solid player and isn't a top 20 center to me.



Look at a guy like Spencer Hawes. Guy is a very good defender and shot blocker and a terrific passer (seriously, he's terrific facilitating out of the high post). That guy is top 15, even if he'd been healthy the whole year. Hibbert was an all-star this season, and he'll get much better...and maybe never make an all-star team again. Because the position is packed.

[Kblaze8855]

Even if all those players were centers(KG was a small forward in his youth as much as or more than hes been a straight up center in his older days) they were not great all together and Dwight has not played them very much. Dwight never played the real Shaq and Dwight in his prime was years after Shaq fell off. Dwight became roughly the player he is today in what...07 or 08? 09 perhaps? The people in question? Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Ming, Wallace, and KG? Not a single one shared a prime with Dwight unless you mean Yao who has been gone for what seems like forever. He faced some of them when he was a youngster on Steve Francis team or as he was finding his way up the ranks.

The player Dwight will be remembered as(maybe 08 till whenever he falls off) wasnt playing with those guys. Shit Ben has not been an all star since Dwight was 19 or so doing 16 a game with Francis.

Unless you choose to consider Yao on the level of a Ewing or Zo Dwight has never played anyone as good as guys he would be playing dozens of times in the 90s.

And Yao retired at what? 30? Dwights greatest opponent has been injured for 4 years, his assumed rival was Oden who has never been healthy, and now its just him and Bynum.

Even if 2003 had a lot of great centers(and it didnt) it doesnt mean the Dwight we are talking about played them.

[Teanett]

There are more good centers now than in the 90's. There isn't the same cream of the crop. But someone like Chris Kaman would be a good center in any era, and he's more like top 15 nowadays. And I wouldn't even include Noah (who I think is a PF) or Monroe (because I think he's probably a PF) or Al Jefferson (who I think is a PF).



No need to list them. Kendrick Perkins is a solid player and isn't a top 20 center to me.



Look at a guy like Spencer Hawes. Guy is a very good defender and shot blocker and a terrific passer (seriously, he's terrific facilitating out of the high post). That guy is top 15, even if he'd been healthy the whole year. Hibbert was an all-star this season, and he'll get much better...and maybe never make an all-star team again. Because the position is packed.

i'm not sure i could name 15 or 20 current centers better than chris kaman or perk. and with that said, kaman is a poor man's rony seikaly. he would be a backup to guys like vlade divac, jayson williams.
i dont think he's better than elden campbell. he would be average.

[Leviathon1121]

Kblaze trying to make points to people who contend that the NBA had no athletes untill, a certain someone, became a starter for the Lakers. Should be interesting.

[Whoah10115]

i'm not sure i could name 15 or 20 current centers better than chris kaman or perk. and with that said, kaman is a poor man's rony seikaly. he would be a backup to guys like vlade divac, jayson williams.
i dont think he's better than elden campbell. he would be average.



I always liked Seikaly and never understood why he didn't get more credit. He was very good. But I don't think Kaman would be below Elden Campbell. Campbell was a PF/C and not a particularly special post player. Kaman's got skills. And Kaman certainly wouldn't be a backup. He would play on a different team than Vlade. And Williams was a PF who played some C because the position wasn't very deep and he was a great rebounder.



Dwight
Duncan
Gasol
Bynum
Cousins
Chandler
Gortat
Pekovic
Bogut
Horford
Lopez
Hibbert
Kaman
Hawes
Camby


And in picking those guys I'm leaving out Jefferson, Noah, Monroe, Nene...because I think they're PF's...even tho the first 3 have been the starting centers for their teams all year (Noah for years and Jefferson is usually stuck at C instead of PF) and Nene has been used mostly as a C every year, until this year...even tho Mozgov doesn't play many minutes and Nene is playing C right now in Washington.




Add Okafor, Perkins, Mozgov, McGee (who can make a massive jump next season), Varejao, Dalembert...DeAndre Jordan isn't even a top 20 center and he's solid with some upside (and stupid contract).



If Dalembert is the 25th best center in the league that's not too bad.

[Kblaze8855]

For a number of reasons(some no doubt due to injury) Kaman has been a backup in over 80 games of his career already. Hes not a lock to start anywhere. Hes underrated to me...but there are a number of situations hes coming off the bench. Hes not a "Must start" type at all.

[hawksdogsbraves]

What's the point of this exactly, that the C position is down these days? That's been discussed to death. That Dwight would be average in the 90's? That's just false.

It would be very interesting to see Dwight go head to head with great centers all the time, I think you'd see his game raised to another level if he actually faced difficult matchups night in-night out. It's impossible for him not to relax a little bit when he faces guys like Zaza Pachulia or Joel Anthony night in night out.

[Owl]

man, you post a whole lot of horseshit and with sugarcoating.
the point is that smits played with two other all-star quality big men which had an effect on his numbers. wether or not you feel they deserved it has no merit.
it is equivalent of hibbert playing alongside emeka okafor and elton brand.
Then why did Smits play substantially better with both the Davis'. He started his prime (in terms of numbers) in 1993-94 which is the first season with Antonio there. His rebounds went up around this time too (one year later), and he posted his best numbers for that period with both Davis' until his aging caused him to drop off from '98.

And really, Elton Brand???

Brand was a perpetual 20-10 guy. I imagine Elton Brand put in more 20 point games in one season than Dale Davis had in his career. Okafor is also innapropriate as he is a center (who can play forward) rather than a forward who can play center.

And describing power forwards as all-star centers (when each made the game once, one as a reserve for injured player) is misleading whether you believe so or not.

[Carbine]

This subject has always interested me.

KBlazes whole stance, I think, is that if you put Dwight back with those older guys, he'd not be considered an elite big man. He's just considered one now because of the lack of comp at his position.

You could easily make the argument that Dwights game would flourish more back then because of the rules, like higher paced games (higher pace game is better for Dwight because one of his biggest strengths is running the floor) and more spacing on offense down low via the old rules.

Also, one could argue that had Dwight faced more worthy big men from the early to mid-90's he would improve his game more. Playing against the best makes you a better player. Gives you real motivation to know that if you don't improve, you'll be second class.

....and it's not like Dwight struggles vs. Shaq or Duncan, two of the top 10 players ever from his era. He goes to work vs. them. So based on that, it's very hard for me to think Dwight wouldn't go to work vs. the Ewings, Hakeems & Robinsons of the league and hold his own in the rank as an elite big men if he were from that era.

[hitmanyr2k]

This subject has always interested me.

KBlazes whole stance, I think, is that if you put Dwight back with those older guys, he'd not be considered an elite big man. He's just considered one now because of the lack of comp at his position.

Which is very true. Put Dwight in the 90's and you may as well scratch him from the All-NBA teams. Scratch those DPOY awards while you're at it. He isn't winning any of that shit in the 90's with the likes of Hakeem, D-Rob, Shaq, Mutombo, and Mourning around. Shaq put up 29 points on 60% shooting, 13 boards, 3 blocks which murders Dwight's best season. You know what Shaq got for that kind of production? All-NBA THIRD team :oldlol: In fact Shaq put up that production for years and the best he could do was All-NBA 2nd or 3rd team. Dwight isn't messing with that in his best year.


You could easily make the argument that Dwights game would flourish more back then because of the rules, like higher paced games (higher pace game is better for Dwight because one of his biggest strengths is running the floor) and more spacing on offense down low via the old rules.

Also, one could argue that had Dwight faced more worthy big men from the early to mid-90's he would improve his game more. Playing against the best makes you a better player. Gives you real motivation to know that if you don't improve, you'll be second class.

Howard should have that motivation to improve regardless if he truly wants to win titles. If he had a legit post game you wouldn't see his team disrespecting him and ignoring him while jacking threes. He should be murdering this league by now but he isn't and that's on him.


....and it's not like Dwight struggles vs. Shaq or Duncan, two of the top 10 players ever from his era. He goes to work vs. them. So based on that, it's very hard for me to think Dwight wouldn't go to work vs. the Ewings, Hakeems & Robinsons of the league and hold his own in the rank as an elite big men if he were from that era.

You mean old Shaq and old Duncan? You're comparing them to Prime Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Cmon :oldlol:

[Carbine]

Which is very true. Put Dwight in the 90's and you may as well scratch him from the All-NBA teams. Scratch those DPOY awards while you're at it. He isn't winning any of that shit in the 90's with the likes of Hakeem, D-Rob, Shaq, Mutombo, and Mourning around. Shaq put up 29 points on 60% shooting, 13 boards, 3 blocks which murders Dwight's best season. You know what Shaq got for that kind of production? All-NBA THIRD team :oldlol: In fact Shaq put up that production for years and the best he could do was All-NBA 2nd or 3rd team. Dwight isn't messing with that in his best year.



Howard should have that motivation to improve regardless if he truly wants to win titles. If he had a legit post game you wouldn't see his team disrespecting him and ignoring him while jacking threes. He should be murdering this league by now but he isn't and that's on him.



You mean old Shaq and old Duncan? You're comparing them to Prime Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Cmon :oldlol:


Miami Shaq & Just barely out of his prime Duncan....and this was young, unpolished, raw Dwight. Not the player he is now, who is much superior to his younger self.

As far as his team disrespecting him and ignoring him while jacking 3's....that's the system in place. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

Dwight Howard in the 90s wouldn't even make an All NBA 3rd team at his peak, and he wouldn't have a single DPOY to his name. Plus him being undersized and having a very limited offensive arsenal would not bode well for his chances against the O'Neals, Robinsons, Hakeems, etc.

[Whoah10115]

Dwight Howard could very well have a DPOTY tropy in the 90's. He probably would have netted one.




Howard last year would have made the All-NBA Team over Hakeem in 91 (missed 30 games) and over Brad Daugherty in 92.






Chris Kaman is a starter. Maybe some team would keep him as a backup but he would have offers from playoff teams to start. It's just true.

[Kblaze8855]

There are always teams with a shitty bigman somewhere in the lineup a guy like Kaman could start over. But hes not a guy who you have and stop looking for a good center. Not back then. Hes a notch above being the OJ Mayo of centers. Sure he could start on several teams. But having him isnt reason enough not to take adeal for a good player at his position.

[eliteballer]

Dwight Howard in the 90s wouldn't even make an All NBA 3rd team at his peak, and he wouldn't have a single DPOY to his name. Plus him being undersized and having a very limited offensive arsenal would not bode well for his chances against the O'Neals, Robinsons, Hakeems, etc.

Mourning.

and lets be honest, there's a lot more hybrid guys these days then there were then.

Guys like

Aldridge
P Gasol
Bargnani

Who spend a lot of times playing center in lineups. There were then too(elden campbell)...but not to the same extent among the stars.

Im not including guys like Perkins either. Against guys like him or tough rebounding/defensive guys like Chandler, you might not have to worry about them when you're guarding them but you damn sure have to work on the offensive end and on the boards. There were guys like Perkins then too obv.

really if you want to throw in 2 year wonders like Bryant Reeves there are guys like that these days too(Dampier, Curry etc)

Should I mention the zone and no illegal defense either? That no doubt makes it tougher on big men.

[Teanett]

Then why did Smits play substantially better with both the Davis'. He started his prime (in terms of numbers) in 1993-94 which is the first season with Antonio there. His rebounds went up around this time too (one year later), and he posted his best numbers for that period with both Davis' until his aging caused him to drop off from '98.

And really, Elton Brand???

Brand was a perpetual 20-10 guy. I imagine Elton Brand put in more 20 point games in one season than Dale Davis had in his career. Okafor is also innapropriate as he is a center (who can play forward) rather than a forward who can play center.

And describing power forwards as all-star centers (when each made the game once, one as a reserve for injured player) is misleading whether you believe so or not.

rik smith was in his prime then. should he play worse?
without the davis' he probably would have a couple more rebounds.

dont pretend to be stupid. i'm not talking elton brand's career numbers but his production now is comparable to what antonio put up in indy.

why is okafor inappropriate? he's almost the same size as dale davis, gives you 10/10 with solid physical defense.

okafor and brand are solid nba starters, went 1 and 2 in their drafts.
but in 95 they would be backing up rik smits.

[Teanett]

I always liked Seikaly and never understood why he didn't get more credit. He was very good. But I don't think Kaman would be below Elden Campbell. Campbell was a PF/C and not a particularly special post player. Kaman's got skills. And Kaman certainly wouldn't be a backup. He would play on a different team than Vlade. And Williams was a PF who played some C because the position wasn't very deep and he was a great rebounder.



sure kaman got skills and has had some nice seasons but elden was a 13/8 guy for almost a decade.
apart from kaman's "healthy" years his production is comparable to matt geiger's best stuff. kaman is no sure fire starter material in the 90's.

[andgar923]

The number one reason why Dwight would be lucky to even sniff an all star if he played back then is...

He's WEAK

Dude is weak mentally, he aint tough enough to play in the past era, he's a Drake of the NBA.

I'm not saying this for shits and giggles, it's the absolute truth.

And it's not as if his game is so awesome that regardless of how much of a punk he is, his game will over compensate for it either.

He wouldn't last one quarter playing against Ken Norman, Tree Rollins or a plethora of bruisers from the past.

[Owl]

rik smith was in his prime then. should he play worse?
without the davis' he probably would have a couple more rebounds.

dont pretend to be stupid. i'm not talking elton brand's career numbers but his production now is comparable to what antonio put up in indy.

why is okafor inappropriate? he's almost the same size as dale davis, gives you 10/10 with solid physical defense.

okafor and brand are solid nba starters, went 1 and 2 in their drafts.
but in 95 they would be backing up rik smits.
Smits shouldn't play worse but why on earth would be play significantly better (a sudden leap at age 27) if the Davis' were taking his stats. They weren't.

His rebound numbers by any measure (per game, per minute, rebound%) were better whilst playing with the two aforementioned players. Would they have been better if the Davis' had been replaced by complete scrubs. Yes, anybody's would be if they were playing with bad players. But were the Davis' such beasts that no one else could get a rebound, no. The Pacers were an above average rebounding team which indicates Smits rebound numbers for the period are slightly deflated. Only slightly though.

And they wouldn't be backing up Smits because like the Davis' did they would be playing the forward position. Would Okafor play minutes at the center, yes (partially because that's his natural position) because most teams then as now don't have a good backup center, and because Smits couldn't stay on the floor for more than 30 minutes.

And Okafor was the less inappropriate example but is primarily a center, is larger than either Davis was in Indiana and (since you're comparing him with Dale) a substantially better shot blocker.

If you're saying the Davis' prime is equivalent to late career Elton Brand then I don't necessarily disagree, but then that hardly belongs in the debate about elite centers of mid 90s (the claim being that Smits numbers were being taken by playing with 2 all-star centers).


And is someone really saying Dwight wouldn't last a quarter with 6'8 215lbs small forward Ken Norman.:eek:

[Teanett]

Smits shouldn't play worse but why on earth would be play significantly better (a sudden leap at age 27) if the Davis' were taking his stats. They weren't.

His rebound numbers by any measure (per game, per minute, rebound%) were better whilst playing with the two aforementioned players. Would they have been better if the Davis' had been replaced by complete scrubs. Yes, anybody's would be if they were playing with bad players. But were the Davis' such beasts that no one else could get a rebound, no. The Pacers were an above average rebounding team which indicates Smits rebound numbers for the period are slightly deflated. Only slightly though.

And they wouldn't be backing up Smits because like the Davis' did they would be playing the forward position. Would Okafor play minutes at the center, yes (partially because that's his natural position) because most teams then as now don't have a good backup center, and because Smits couldn't stay on the floor for more than 30 minutes.

And Okafor was the less inappropriate example but is primarily a center, is larger than either Davis was in Indiana and (since you're comparing him with Dale) a substantially better shot blocker.

If you're saying the Davis' prime is equivalent to late career Elton Brand then I don't necessarily disagree, but then that hardly belongs in the debate about elite centers of mid 90s (the claim being that Smits numbers were being taken by playing with 2 all-star centers).


And is someone really saying Dwight wouldn't last a quarter with 6'8 215lbs small forward Ken Norman.:eek:

antonio's production in indy is similar to brand's now. his prime was obviously in toronto.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/694/378/1483241_display_image.jpg?1296806931
i dont know why you dwell on okafor being larger than dale.
dale was a big dude, even taller than okafor. dale averages 1.2 bpg to mek's 1.8 bpg. i dont know where you get "substantially better shotblocker".:confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

Smits shouldn't play worse but why on earth would be play significantly better (a sudden leap at age 27) if the Davis' were taking his stats. They weren't.

His rebound numbers by any measure (per game, per minute, rebound%) were better whilst playing with the two aforementioned players. Would they have been better if the Davis' had been replaced by complete scrubs. Yes, anybody's would be if they were playing with bad players. But were the Davis' such beasts that no one else could get a rebound, no. The Pacers were an above average rebounding team which indicates Smits rebound numbers for the period are slightly deflated. Only slightly though.

And they wouldn't be backing up Smits because like the Davis' did they would be playing the forward position. Would Okafor play minutes at the center, yes (partially because that's his natural position) because most teams then as now don't have a good backup center, and because Smits couldn't stay on the floor for more than 30 minutes.

And Okafor was the less inappropriate example but is primarily a center, is larger than either Davis was in Indiana and (since you're comparing him with Dale) a substantially better shot blocker.

If you're saying the Davis' prime is equivalent to late career Elton Brand then I don't necessarily disagree, but then that hardly belongs in the debate about elite centers of mid 90s (the claim being that Smits numbers were being taken by playing with 2 all-star centers).


And is someone really saying Dwight wouldn't last a quarter with 6'8 215lbs small forward Ken Norman.:eek:

There's no way in hell that Ken is only 215 pds at 6'8. That measurement is clearly flawed since dude was bigger than that. Do you know how skinny he'd have to be to weigh that much at that height?

And it's also about being 'though', Rodman used to more than handle his own vs bigger people, so did Chuck and other players. We see the same with Artest and to some extent Marion and Prince.

Howard is soft dude.

Stanley Roberts>>>> Howard

[Owl]

antonio's production in indy is similar to brand's now. his prime was obviously in toronto.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/694/378/1483241_display_image.jpg?1296806931
i dont know why you dwell on okafor being larger than dale.
dale was a big dude, even taller than okafor. dale averages 1.2 bpg to mek's 1.8 bpg. i dont know where you get "substantially better shotblocker".:confusedshrug:
He was the same height and listed as 20 pounds lighter than Meek (he may have put on a bit of weight in Indy but wasn't nearly the 260 someone has said he was in Portland). Emeka is primarily a center and always has played that position.
1.2bpg to 1.8bpg is half as many again. Its like saying a 30 point scorer doesn't score significantly more than 20 point scorer.

The comparison wasn't a particularly good one, the Davis' were power forwards who could back up a center in a pinch but that wasn't their position, and as I have repeatedly show Smits' numbers didn't suffer any damage with their arrival.

I'm done with this nonsense.

And for the person who thinks Ken Norman could handle Dwight (and I haven't seen Artest guarding Dwight that often come to think of it and unlike Ken Norman he was a DPoY, whereas Norman never made any all defensive teams, and was smaller than Artest) and the Stanley Roberts is better than him I have no idea what you're smoking.

[Teanett]

He was the same height and listed as 20 pounds lighter than Meek (he may have put on a bit of weight in Indy but wasn't nearly the 260 someone has said he was in Portland). Emeka is primarily a center and always has played that position.
1.2bpg to 1.8bpg is half as many again. Its like saying a 30 point scorer doesn't score significantly more than 20 point scorer.

The comparison wasn't a particularly good one, the Davis' were power forwards who could back up a center in a pinch but that wasn't their position, and as I have repeatedly show Smits' numbers didn't suffer any damage with their arrival.

I'm done with this nonsense.



he's listed 6'11''. mek is listed at 6'10''. anyway, it doesnt mean shit what they are listed. rodman was listed 205. just look at them, they're the almost same size. dale was a center too, only having smits pushed him to the 4 spot. it's irrelevant anyway, center most cases means the tallest player. there is no difference between the roles of a 4 and a 5.

dale had 1.2 bpg for 17 seasons. his indy numbers are between 1.0-1.8 bpg.
if you take out mek's one season where he averaged 2.7 bpg, he get's you 1.0-1.9 the rest of his career.
they are practically the same player.
you're just pulling more horseshit out of your ass.

[Whoah10115]

sure kaman got skills and has had some nice seasons but elden was a 13/8 guy for almost a decade.
apart from kaman's "healthy" years his production is comparable to matt geiger's best stuff. kaman is no sure fire starter material in the 90's.




There's no way he's comparable to Matt Geiger. If he wasn't part of the Glen Rice trade Alonzo he might never have been a starter in that era. And when he went to Philly, they played him and Ratliff together (ugly combo). But Kaman is definitely better.



I'm not saying Kaman shows up in the 90's and blows everyone else away. But all I heard growing up was how Wilt could suit up right now and bust Luc Longley's ass...and most people meant it. Longley had a decent game too, solid defense, decent rebounder. But Kaman is certainly much better. Again, I could see him being a backup for a while but a guy like Kaman wouldn't stay a backup for long.



Also, I think most GM's are stupid and I think they overreact to almost everything. Perkins is a solid starter but maybe in the 90's he'd be a backup. With not many great centers around, guys like Perkins are made into some great concept and they get overpaid. But people are starting to recognize. With Bynum, Gasol stepping up, maybe Bogut coming back next year, and Cousins's impact next year (not to mention if McGee can get it together) I think people will talk less about it.

[eliteballer]

But all I heard growing up was how Wilt could suit up right now and bust Luc Longley's ass...and most people meant it.


Yup. There's a reason dudes like Mclvaine and Ostertag were getting some of the biggest contracts in the league.....:lol

[Kblaze8855]

Yes. Stupid GMs. It wasnt a lack of bigmen. Plenty og guys have signed deals they would have taken half of on the open market if teams just bid...doesnt mean the league in general values them that highly. Nobody but the teams that did the deals with sign guys like Jim or Koncak for the money they got. It doesnt reflect poorly on the leagues bigmen. It reflects poorly on GMs who bid against themselves. You can see they never considered McIlvaine a star or even potential star. He had no idea why he got the money and didnt pretend he deserved it:

[Kblaze8855]

SI:


There are certain mysteries of the universe that are beyond all understanding. This is one of them: Jim McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) will earn more money this season than Shawn Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), Karl Malone (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Karl_Malone/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), Scottie Pippen (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Scottie_Pippen/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) or Mitch Richmond (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Mitch_Richmond/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm). After you take a moment to digest that fact, two questions may come to mind. How in the world can that be? And who, exactly, is Jim McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)?


The second question is easier to answer. McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) is a 7'1", 260-pound center who was drafted out of Marquette (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Marquette/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) 32nd overall by the Bullets in 1994 and averaged 2.3 points and 2.9 rebounds as a Washington (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Washington/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) reserve, last season. Those are the kinds of numbers that are often rewarded by the NBA (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/National_Basketball_Association/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) version of the minimum wage ($247,500 a year for veterans), but McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), 24, had the good fortune to have his contract run out after last season, just in time for last summer's great free-agent gold rush. Seattle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Seattle/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) looked beyond his modest statistics, saw great promise in his shot blocking and overall defensive skills, and signed him to a seven-year, $35 million contract.

That happened in July, and McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) says that only once since then has he made it through a day without someone bringing up the contract. "But that was the day we spent on the plane coming back from [preseason games in] Europe (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Europe/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)," he says. "So I don't know if that counts." Fortunately he has maintained a sense of perspective as well as a sense of humor about his newfound wealth. "Teachers and parents should be making a lot more, and athletes should probably be making a lot less," he says. "Does it make sense that I'm making this much money? Of course not. But no one in this league can really say they deserve the money they're making except for maybe Michael Jordan (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Michael_Jordan/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)."

But if McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) provides the interior defense the SuperSonics (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Seattle_SuperSonics/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) need to transform them from last season's NBA (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/National_Basketball_Association/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) finalists into this season's champions, he will seem like a bargain. His 2.08 blocked shots per game ranked 10th in the league even though he averaged only 14.9 minutes, and his projected 6.67 blocks per 48 minutes was the best such mark in the league. The Sonics, deep in scorers, won't ask for many points from McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), just defense and rebounding. Especially after All-Star center Shaquille O'Neal (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shaquille_O_Neal/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) moved to the Lakers (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Los_Angeles_Lakers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) and the Pacific Division, the Sonics were looking for more power in the pivot than they had last season with starting center Ervin Johnson (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Ervin_Johnson/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) (now with Denver (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Denver/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)). "We didn't get McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) to be a Shaq (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shaquille_O_Neal/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)-stopper," says Seattle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Seattle/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) general manager Wally Walker (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Wally_Walker/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm). "But he's the kind of player who can make opposing centers work hard for everything they get." McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)'s presence should also take some of the inside burden off Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), the Sonics' All-Star forward. "Shawn's a better player when he has a big body beside him," says Seattle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Seattle/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) coach George Karl (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/George_Karl/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm).

Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) apparently didn't see things the same way, at least not for the first three weeks of training camp, which he missed in protest of his place on the Sonics' salary scale. (He's reportedly the sixth-highest-paid member of the team.) Although Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) made it clear that he held no ill will toward McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), his frustration obviously was triggered by the signing of the Sonics' new center. After Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) reported to camp, McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) was properly deferential. "All I know is that guys like Shawn Kemp (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Shawn_Kemp/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) will eventually make more than I'll ever see in my lifetime," he says.

One thing that seems certain is that McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), who earned $525,000 last season, will never flaunt his healthy bank account. He and his wife, Kim, haven't treated themselves to any expensive toys since arriving in Seattle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Seattle/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), which is in keeping with his conservative nature. "If we buy something big, it will be a careful process," he says. "We might have our eye on a motor home, but we'll spend a couple of years shopping around before we commit to something." That would be a wild spending spree, McIlvaine-style.
"I've talked to people from the players' association, and they've told me about guys who signed big contracts and started throwing their money around, buying a new car every week and living the high life," he says. "Then by the time they retire they're coming around to the players' association for financial help. I know that will never happen to me, but I just want to be careful."
If the Sonics had been careful, they wouldn't have gambled on signing McIlvaine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Jim_McIlvaine/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) in the first place. Now they hope that, come June, they will be rewarded for their risk.

[eliteballer]

Yes. Stupid GMs. It wasnt a lack of bigmen. Plenty og guys have signed deals they would have taken half of on the open market if teams just bid...doesnt mean the league in general values them that highly. Nobody but the teams that did the deals with sign guys like Jim or Koncak for the money they got. It doesnt reflect poorly on the leagues bigmen. It reflects poorly on GMs who bid against themselves. You can see they never considered McIlvaine a star or even potential star. He had no idea why he got the money and didnt pretend he deserved it:

Serviceable big men being rare had EVERYTHING to do with it. You know...kind of like how guys like Dampier and Curry get huge deals today. I can't believe you'r saying that. Literally. Acting like the league was littered with double double average capable centers. You mentioned Bryant Reeves as if he was some run of the mill guy when he was a HUGE story. Next thing you're going to tell me Dudley was a a legit player.

[Kblaze8855]

When 20+ teams have something...it isnt rare. Guys like Jim were never rare. He didnt get paid more than Kemp/Pippen/so on because what he offered was crazy valuable and hard to find. He got paid it because the Sonics were ****ing stupid.

Exact same situation as Rashard Lewis. He didnt get 126 million because non rebounding 20ppg tweeners are rare and valuable. He got it because a GM was an idiot. End of story.

And Dudley? Legit as what? He was a really good defender and rebounder. Id take him on my team. But nobody thinks he was a star.

[Teanett]

There's no way he's comparable to Matt Geiger. If he wasn't part of the Glen Rice trade Alonzo he might never have been a starter in that era. And when he went to Philly, they played him and Ratliff together (ugly combo). But Kaman is definitely better.




no doubt kaman has better stuff than geiger *when healthy*.

[andgar923]

He was the same height and listed as 20 pounds lighter than Meek (he may have put on a bit of weight in Indy but wasn't nearly the 260 someone has said he was in Portland). Emeka is primarily a center and always has played that position.
1.2bpg to 1.8bpg is half as many again. Its like saying a 30 point scorer doesn't score significantly more than 20 point scorer.

The comparison wasn't a particularly good one, the Davis' were power forwards who could back up a center in a pinch but that wasn't their position, and as I have repeatedly show Smits' numbers didn't suffer any damage with their arrival.

I'm done with this nonsense.

And for the person who thinks Ken Norman could handle Dwight (and I haven't seen Artest guarding Dwight that often come to think of it and unlike Ken Norman he was a DPoY, whereas Norman never made any all defensive teams, and was smaller than Artest) and the Stanley Roberts is better than him I have no idea what you're smoking.

if the rules allowed Artest to be more physical I'm sure you'd see him switch off more on Howard. Maybe he won't stop him because Howard's height would be too much to overcome, but he'd wear him down. Besides, Norman was bigger and more athletic, he used to play the 4 at times.

Now... I must admit, the Norman example was an exaggeration to show how Howard's toughness is pathetic, which I'm sure you understood but chose to ignore my main point, but it's cool.

Having said that, Roberts would mop the floor with Dwight.

He was just as big and as skilled as Shaq in his prime. His downfall was his off the court problems as well as injuries and poor conditioning. Not sure which led to which, but when healthy (and I guess motivated) he was skilled enough to cause some damage. Have him play in today's era and he's regarded in the same way that Howard is. He was a meaner tougher version of Shaq, both had the same soft touch with athletic ability but he was meaner.

[Kblaze8855]

He was the same height and listed as 20 pounds lighter than Meek (he may have put on a bit of weight in Indy but wasn't nearly the 260 someone has said he was in Portland).

Emekas predraft had him as under 6'9''. Hes 6'8'' and change and he was already what? 21 or 22? He has not grown. And many sources list Dale at 252 in Portland and I know I watched games where they said he was about 260. I remember it clearly because it was a game I recorded and watched in some summers years ago(I do that...).

You really have trouble accepting that a 6'10'' or more guy built like this:

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7209/1483241displayimage.jpg

is 260?

Artest was 260 in like 2010. A reporter said he saw Lebron weigh in at 274 in a cavs workout.

But Dale Davis cant be 260?

He was a very very very large person...

[Kblaze8855]

Seems he was known to be over 250 even on the Pacers:


Published on June 12, 2000, Press-Telegram (Long Beach, CA)

PACERS NOTEBOOK

Want to know how to make a 6-foot-11, 252-pound man look like some Munchkin? Stand him next to a guy who's 7-1 and 335 pounds. And tell him to shadow him everywhere.That was forward Dale Davis' nifty assignment Sunday night in Game 3 of the NBA Finals -- try to contain center Shaquille O'Neal.

Likely just his weight during some season in the late 90s. They update it now and then. But it was clear he wasnt anything close to 220 or 230 or whatever he was listed which was no doubt his predraft weight which too many players are listed as for their entire careers.

Dale Davis was huge. He was about as massive as Zo but taller......

If he was 252 in 2000 he probably floated anywhere from 245 to 265 depending on the year. 10 pounds either way is nothing for a guy that big over the course of several years.

[andgar923]

I have a hard time believing that this dude at 6'8 (maybe slightly taller) is only 215

http://static.bkref.com/images/players/normake01.jpg

[eliteballer]

andgar your stupidity truly knows no bounds:roll:

Dwight has led a team to the Finals, he's plenty tough enough to succeed mentally. The guy is one of the 5 best players in the world...but he's not mentally tough:roll:

He's more massive physically than just about any center from the era save a few. Hes at least as mentally tough as Zo who would get flustered at the drop of a hat.

Stop watching space jam, get out of your moms basement and into the real world.

[eliteballer]

When 20+ teams have something...it isnt rare. Guys like Jim were never rare. He didnt get paid more than Kemp/Pippen/so on because what he offered was crazy valuable and hard to find. He got paid it because the Sonics were ****ing stupid.

Exact same situation as Rashard Lewis. He didnt get 126 million because non rebounding 20ppg tweeners are rare and valuable. He got it because a GM was an idiot. End of story.

And Dudley? Legit as what? He was a really good defender and rebounder. Id take him on my team. But nobody thinks he was a star.

Mclvaine was a decent shotblocker, thats it. It just shows the rarity of serviceable big men. You know the adage "take the big men first in the draft". If all those GMs were so stupid why werent 15 ppg wing scorers getting those kinds of deals since they were as common as you claim the big men were.

Your Lewis example is horrible. He was a 6-10 shooter who was solid enough to be a key cog as a starter on a contending team. We're not talking about Jason Kapono.

Know why the Cavs lost? They couldnt matchup with the combo of Hedo and Lewis because they were...rare.

[andgar923]

andgar your stupidity truly knows no bounds:roll:

Dwight has led a team to the Finals, he's plenty tough enough to succeed mentally. The guy is one of the 5 best players in the world...but he's not mentally tough:roll:

He's more massive physically than just about any center from the era save a few. Hes at least as mentally tough as Zo who would get flustered at the drop of a hat.

Stop watching space jam, get out of your moms basement and into the real world.
:rolleyes:

[Kblaze8855]

Mclvaine was a decent shotblocker, thats it. It just shows the rarity of serviceable big men. You know the adage "take the big men first in the draft". If all those GMs were so stupid why werent 15 ppg wing scorers getting those kinds of deals since they were as common as you claim the big men were.

First of all...there is no "All those" gms. It was like....3 people in 20 years. And you and I simply have different understandings of the word rare when we have like 24-28 teams and over 2 dozen of the players in question. Just because NBA teams have always and will always value bigmen doesnt mean bigmen are always rare.


Your Lewis example is horrible. He was a 6-10 shooter who was solid enough to be a key cog as a starter on a contending team. We're not talking about Jason Kapono.

He was given a contract nearly double what players on his level have signed for with no evidence the rest of league was prepared to offer him or anyone on his level the same.

It was an idiotic deal. Lets not act like foolish decisions dont exist. Some things really are as simple as...stupid decisions.


Know why the Cavs lost? They couldnt matchup with the combo of Hedo and Lewis because they were...rare.

Here I was thinking it was the 40 something points Dwight scored to knock them out. But it was Lewis and Hedo who probably produced nearly as much combined as Lebron did alone while giving them 50 point games on 70% shooting and generally looking like the second coming.

Wasnt the less talented in general Cavs going into 1 man team mode straight high schooling it with 1-4 offenses watching Lebron go one on one like 11 straight posessions some stretches either.

Understood.

And while its the subject....this is you on Lewis before he got his absurd deal:


Are the Sonics willing to give him the two year $25 million extension? Why would he turn that down? A longer deal for more security? He's sure as hell not going to get 12 million per though.

But he gets paid Powerball money and now you act like it wasnt just a gm being an idiot? Its because he was a tall blah blah blah?

A guy who was a 3rd of a notch over Al harrington got a deal worth 118-127 million dollars depending on some factors.

It was stupid...you knew it before he signed it and you know it now.

GMs giving out big money never did mean the players in question are rare. It means...bad decisions get made now and then. If shitty bigmen got superstar money all the time in the 80s/90s we wouldnt even remember the obvious examples.

Its not an SI story that ends up being remembered more than these guys actual playing career because the decisions could be justified with basketball.

They get rememebered for 20 years because they are decisions of otherworldly idiocy.

Nothing more.

[Da_Realist]

Stop watching space jam, get out of your moms basement and into the real world.

:oldlol: at the irony of a kid telling someone to get out of his mom's basement.

[ILLsmak]

Mourning.

and lets be honest, there's a lot more hybrid guys these days then there were then.

Guys like

Aldridge
P Gasol
Bargnani

Who spend a lot of times playing center in lineups. There were then too(elden campbell)...but not to the same extent among the stars.

Im not including guys like Perkins either. Against guys like him or tough rebounding/defensive guys like Chandler, you might not have to worry about them when you're guarding them but you damn sure have to work on the offensive end and on the boards. There were guys like Perkins then too obv.

really if you want to throw in 2 year wonders like Bryant Reeves there are guys like that these days too(Dampier, Curry etc)

Should I mention the zone and no illegal defense either? That no doubt makes it tougher on big men.

Disagree with Campbell being a hybrid type player. Remember him alongside Shaq? Couldn't do it. That means to me he's a C.

As for Dwight, he's just not tough enough.

It doesn't matter how athletic or skilled you are, if you can't be mentally tough then you can't do it.

The Illegal D does matter, but Dwight should be beasting people. As a C you gotta take someone and put your body into them every time. No matter what else happens you need to physically dominate the other C. Dwight has the body for it, but he's not mentally ready to take the punishment.

It's hilarious that Shaq was such a marketable personality but the way he played C was on some old school big man borderline dirty shit.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Emekas predraft had him as under 6'9''. Hes 6'8'' and change and he was already what? 21 or 22? He has not grown. And many sources list Dale at 252 in Portland and I know I watched games where they said he was about 260. I remember it clearly because it was a game I recorded and watched in some summers years ago(I do that...).

You really have trouble accepting that a 6'10'' or more guy built like this:

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7209/1483241displayimage.jpg

is 260?

Artest was 260 in like 2010. A reporter said he saw Lebron weigh in at 274 in a cavs workout.

But Dale Davis cant be 260?

He was a very very very large person...

He was a beast. He had that banger mentality. If you go in there and are 6'10 and have a decent body, no matter how much you weigh, you can own some people. I don't trust NBA weights, though. They have Ben Wallace listed at 240 which to me is ridiculous.

-Smak

[eliteballer]

Disagree with Campbell being a hybrid type player. Remember him alongside Shaq? Couldn't do it. That means to me he's a C.

He did well enough with Divac



First of all...there is no "All those" gms. It was like....3 people in 20 years. And you and I simply have different understandings of the word rare when we have like 24-28 teams and over 2 dozen of the players in question. Just because NBA teams have always and will always value bigmen doesnt mean bigmen are always rare.



He was given a contract nearly double what players on his level have signed for with no evidence the rest of league was prepared to offer him or anyone on his level the same.

It was an idiotic deal. Lets not act like foolish decisions dont exist. Some things really are as simple as...stupid decisions.



Here I was thinking it was the 40 something points Dwight scored to knock them out. But it was Lewis and Hedo who probably produced nearly as much combined as Lebron did alone while giving them 50 point games on 70% shooting and generally looking like the second coming.

Wasnt the less talented in general Cavs going into 1 man team mode straight high schooling it with 1-4 offenses watching Lebron go one on one like 11 straight posessions some stretches either.

Understood.

And while its the subject....this is you on Lewis before he got his absurd deal:



But he gets paid Powerball money and now you act like it wasnt just a gm being an idiot? Its because he was a tall blah blah blah?

A guy who was a 3rd of a notch over Al harrington got a deal worth 118-127 million dollars depending on some factors.

It was stupid...you knew it before he signed it and you know it now.

GMs giving out big money never did mean the players in question are rare. It means...bad decisions get made now and then. If shitty bigmen got superstar money all the time in the 80s/90s we wouldnt even remember the obvious examples.

Its not an SI story that ends up being remembered more than these guys actual playing career because the decisions could be justified with basketball.

They get rememebered for 20 years because they are decisions of otherworldly idiocy.

Nothing more.

Of course Lewis was overpaid and of course dwight had a lot to do with beating the cavs, but lets not pretend like at the time EVERYONE didnt know the Cavs biggest problem was they couldnt match up with the height and shooting ability of the Magic players. The Magic overpaid for Lewis because he was a rare commodity they needed for the team they wee trying to build. Big men have ALWAYS been picked high in the draft and been overpaid for in contracts and trades because of the same rarity. You say 3 bad decisions on big men? Get real, heres more:

Travis Knight
Bryant Reeves
Ervin Johnson
Jon Koncak
Nelson doing everything he could to get Bradley.
Joe Barry Carroll
Rodman for Perdue

The list goes on. People overpay for serviceable big men because they are a commodity. Know why? Because people over 6-8 who even have the coordination to play NBA level ball are a rare commodity in this world. Always have been, always will be

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty crazy reaching right there. We are talking about the big stand out deals where some guys are clearly crazy overvalued for some reason and it stads out as historic examples...and you mention Travis Knight who was making 2-3 million a year then out of the league at 28? The fake magic who at his highest paid point was his teams 7th highest paid player? JBC who was the first pick and put up over 20ppg over his first 6 seasons having 40-50 point games and then fell off? Rodman to the Bulls? Please. You cant even be serious there. You are too old to look at that trade and think it was because the spurs thought Perdue was a better option because he was a big. You know as well as I do that Rodman just had issues with the team/coach/franchise player/sanity.

That you even need such obscure/irreelvant examples proves my point.

There are as many forwards and guards getting overpaid/rated if not more if we are counting guys like Travis Knight who nobody is going to remember for anything or JBC if being a 20/9 guy for over half a decade makes you a standout bust or if getting traded for a headcase causing chemistry problems means the team trading for you rates you as highly as the guy causing problems.

The idiots in question are obvious and are not including Gms who signed potential all star bigmen who at least proved they had game before getting hurt or shit like that.

Claiming those decisions show the "rarity of serviceable big men" in the 90s is just straight up rewriting history.

Just because tall people with mobility will always be a statistical rarity on the planet(cant believe you even used that as a point) doesnt mean that when there are 2-3 dozen of something on 20 something teams...that that thing is rare in that league.

[Teanett]

There are as many forwards and guards getting overpaid/rated if not more if we are counting guys like Travis Knight who nobody is going to remember for anything or JBC if being a 20/9 guy for over half a decade makes you a standout bust or if getting traded for a headcase causing chemistry problems means the team trading for you rates you as highly as the guy causing problems.


allan houston
glenn robinson
juwan howard
rashard lewis

some gm's are just idiots

[Kblaze8855]

And those guys were just overpaid all stars. There are guys like Bobby simmons who got millions off like 3 months of good play and Jaric types...or Troy Hudson getting like 20 million for 3 years. Qrich getting 9 million a year.

These big deals for role players have never been limuited to bigs. Have they gotten more of the straight up insane ones? Like...all time insane? Yes. But that doesnt mean solid centers were rare any time it happened. It means GMs like everyone else...make mistakes. Especially on big guys who have always been seen as the key to winning.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

You can't argue that big men get overpaid because they are rare or they are pursued because they are rare. Big are just important pieces to teams so they are chased more.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that big men now are just not up to the level of the 90s. There's not question, there were more superstars, and better all-stars/ marginal all stars then.

There's no question centers had more competition back then, whether Dwight would've been worse then is a little harder to predict. Personally I don't think he would be regarded as highly and probably not a superstar, but he could still be extremely good. But like someone else said, these "what if" scenarios have way to many variables, because Dwight in the 90s era, could have changed his game and mentality so too hard to definitively say. But there is no doubt that Dwight does not face equal competition to what Shaq, Hakeem, Drob, etc faced.

And also I saw a mention of bargnani as a hybrid center..... apart from his height nothing about him resembles a center. He just isn't one.

[kileer7]

the competition is comparable across eras at nearly all positions imo although the orientation and balance of offenses is diff

[eliteballer]

Pretty crazy reaching right there. We are talking about the big stand out deals where some guys are clearly crazy overvalued for some reason and it stads out as historic examples...and you mention Travis Knight who was making 2-3 million a year then out of the league at 28? The fake magic who at his highest paid point was his teams 7th highest paid player? JBC who was the first pick and put up over 20ppg over his first 6 seasons having 40-50 point games and then fell off? Rodman to the Bulls? Please. You cant even be serious there. You are too old to look at that trade and think it was because the spurs thought Perdue was a better option because he was a big. You know as well as I do that Rodman just had issues with the team/coach/franchise player/sanity.

That you even need such obscure/irreelvant examples proves my point.

There are as many forwards and guards getting overpaid/rated if not more if we are counting guys like Travis Knight who nobody is going to remember for anything or JBC if being a 20/9 guy for over half a decade makes you a standout bust or if getting traded for a headcase causing chemistry problems means the team trading for you rates you as highly as the guy causing problems.

The idiots in question are obvious and are not including Gms who signed potential all star bigmen who at least proved they had game before getting hurt or shit like that.

Claiming those decisions show the "rarity of serviceable big men" in the 90s is just straight up rewriting history.

Just because tall people with mobility will always be a statistical rarity on the planet(cant believe you even used that as a point) doesnt mean that when there are 2-3 dozen of something on 20 something teams...that that thing is rare in that league.


Knight got a 7 year contract for averging 5 points and 5 rebounds as a rookie. The money he was paid was a big contract back then too. He's not an obscure example, it was a big deal when pitino gave him that contract. Hes just one of the ones I can name off the top of my head without doing more research.

Good point with the guards/forwards....IF there weren't over 4 times as many of them. Of course the guys who constitute 70% of the league will be responsible for some of the bad deals.

You denying that big men always getting overpaid for in deals and trades..its lying. flat out

[Kblaze8855]

It would be if I said it didnt happen. I said...big mne being valued highly because they are seen as key to winning...doesnt make serviceable bigmen rare in the 90s.

You point out to me one other example in or out of sports..in the history of this planet...where 20-24 out of 30 was called rare.

Damn near every team(every single team if you are calling some of those scrubs serviceable) had one or two..sometimes 3 or 4...of these people.

When every team has something...many of them several...it isnt rare.

Hell the kinds of players you mentioned are barely rare in the NCAA tournament.

[eliteballer]

When I say serviceable I mean centers who can play 20 minutes or more in an NBA game and be somewhat productive. Those kinds of guys are rare. Thats why chumps like Knight(on potential) and Mclvaine got paid.

We're not talking about the likes of Aaron Gray.

Stark contrast to what you elude as dozens of double double caliber players.

[eliteballer]

I mean you want to talk about 93

Atlanta - Willis legit
Philly - laughable
Boston - parish legit
New Jersey - laughable
Cleveland - Daugherty - star
Detroit - laughable
Clips - laughable
Seattle - laughable
NY - Ewing star
Chicago - laughable
Orlando - Star
San antonio - star
Minnesota - laughable
Milwaukee - laughable
Washington - legit for 49 games
Portland - laughable
Utah - Laughable
Phoenix - laughable
Indiana - Smits, 14/5. between laughable and legit
Denver - legit
Charlotte - star
Dallas - between legit and laughable
Sac - laughable
Houston - Star
Lakers - Divac, legit
Miami - Siekaly - legit
Golden State -laughable

So in a league of 27 teams, you've got half the league that is laughable.

[Kblaze8855]

Stark contrast to something only you have said?

You arent even talking about anything ive said anymore.

Went from pointless claims that come down to if you throw 20 games off the schedule you pretty much play the same talent then as now as if that makes a point at all to acting like some scrub getting overpaid in 1994 means decent bigmen were rare when they were on the vast majority of teams....which I suppose means you have redefined the word rare.

I have no idea what this even is right now so im gonna eat this subway and drink my root beer and watch this Lakers/Spurs game to see one of the two centers in the NBA who can do anything worth extended discussion.

[Kblaze8855]

And when you are calling a smits/Davis tandem between laughable and legit how many teams have flat out legit center situations now?

2?

[Carbine]

Spurs
Lakers (really they have two dominant post players)
Memphis
New York
Orlando
Indiana
Chicago

Then you got teams like Clippers
Boston (Garnett plays center for them, even though he's not a center)
Atlanta
Washington (Nene)
OKC
Denver (yes Mcgee is dumb, but he's very very talented)
Houston (Camby is still doing his thing)
Minnesota (Pekovich)
Sacremento (Cousins)