Let's put an end to this defensive era garbage

[Calabis]

As you guys know, we have a certain poster who for the past year or so, keeps posting D ratings, yet he doesn't support any of his posts with reasons...here is a lenghty repost of why things are the way they are. Examples, more three point shooting=more misses, tends to result in a defensive stops, more offensive rebounding tends to equal more possessions, resulting in more scoring opportunities. Better, more quality bigs shooting 50+ percent, on the inside

Here are the reasons for the drop, not all this mythical garbage about great defenses from 98-04 and these so called great zones of today

Despite the dip in 3-point percentage, overall scoring is up this season. The league is scoring more than 200 points per game (200.01 to be precise) for the first time since the 1994-95 season. But that's more about pace than offensive efficiency. At 95.2 possessions per team per 48 minutes, this is the fastest pace the league has played at in the last 10 years. Efficiency is actually down from last season as the league is scoring 104.2 points per 100 possessions, down from 105.4 in 2008-09.

Along with the dip in 3-point percentage, the mid-range game continues to fade. The percentage of mid-range points (points not scored at the line, in the paint or beyond the arc) is down to just 20.6 percent. Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season. Those baskets account for 41.7 percent of all points this season, up from 40.1 percent a year ago.(So much for this zone myth of keeping perimeter guys out of the lanes)

Scoring from the mid-range area isn't a trend that good offensive teams have. Chicago scores 26.9 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 27th offensively. Detroit scores 26.6 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 26th offensively. Dallas (25.2 percent, 10th) and Portland (24.9 percent, seventh) go against the grain, thanks to the shooting of Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge.


http://www.82games.com/scorers.htm

Article from 2004: We'll begin with playing slower, which teams have become a little too good at during the David Stern era. In '84-85, the average NBA team used 104.8 possessions in a 48-minute game. By last year, the league had come to a screeching halt, using just 92.0 possessions per game. NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago. In other words, the biggest reason for the 17-point decrease in scoring isn't due to bad shooting, bad passing, changes in officiating or even the oft-cited increase in high-school aged kids entering the league. The main reason that offense has declined so much is because teams have stopped running. The change in pace alone accounts for 76.2 percent of the decline in scoring since '84-85. If the league reverted to the same pace it played at two decades ago, teams would average about 106.7 points a game.

While a slower pace is the main culprit in lower scores, that doesn't let offenses off the hook. Regardless of the speed with which the game is played, teams have become less efficient on the offensive end. In fact, even after we adjust for the fewer number of possessions teams use, there's still a 4.1 points-per-game difference that results from teams getting less out of each trip down the floor. This is noteworthy since the increased use of the 3-pointer should have produced the opposite effect.

1984-85 2003-04 Change
Points per game 110.8 93.4 -17.4
Possessions/game 104.8 92.0 -12.8
Points/possession 1.05 1.01 -.04
Field-goal pct. 49.1 43.9 -5.2
Free-throw pct. 76.4 75.2 -1.2
3-point pct. 28.1 34.7 +6.6
Off. Rebound pct. 32.9 28.7 -4.2FTA/FGA .330 .303 -.207
Turnovers/possession .169 .154 -.015


Offenses are actually quite a bit better than those of the past when it comes to holding onto the ball. Teams turned the ball over on 16.9 percent of their possessions two decades ago, but did so just 15.4 percent of the time in '03-04. Since teams score about 1.2 points on each possession without a turnover, the difference adds about 1.9 points per game to offenses. The cause of the turnover decline is no mystery -- with teams running less, they have fewer chances for open-court miscues.

But those gains are exactly offset by a decline in offensive rebounding. In '84-85, offenses grabbed the board on 32.9 percent of missed shots, but by '03-04 that had declined to 28.7 percent. That difference has cost offenses 2.0 points per game, and it probably results from 3-point shooters being spaced too far away from the basket to have a prayer of getting an offensive board.

However, that still leaves the lion's share of the responsibility in decreased offensive efficiency at the doorstep of a common complaint: Declining shooting. Since '84-85, field-goal percentages have sunk roughly in proportion to Billy Squier's albums sales, from 49.1 percent to 43.9 percent last season. Sharp minds in the audience will quickly note that the 3-pointer is a much more prevalent part of modern offenses (teams try more than five times as many as they did two decades ago), so we should expect field-goal percentages to be lower in return for the greater payoff. Yet even allowing for the rise of the 3-pointer, shooting is still in the dumpster. Teams averaged 0.99 points for each field-goal attempt in 1984-85, but just 0.94 last season. That five-hundreths of a percentage point difference is enough to subtract 2.9 points a game from offenses.

That goes to underscore that the 3-pointer has, on balance, not had much of an effect. On the one hand, players shoot the long bomb much more accurately than twenty years ago -- improving from 28.1 percent to 34.7 percent -- which has added 1.9 points per game to scoring.

But there's a hidden cost to all of those 3s. Because they're bombing away instead of going to the rim, teams are getting to the line much less often. Teams took 0.33 free-throws per field-goal attempt back then, but only 0.30 last season, a change that cost teams about 1.7 points a game -- giving back nearly all of the difference from the increase in 3-point accuracy.

Our study tells us two things about the state of scoring. First, pace is a much bigger factor than the decline in offensive efficiency. Second, the main cause of the dip in efficiency is the sharp drop in 2-point field-goal percentage.

[Calabis]

continued............

Article from 2001: In addition, the typical player nowadays generally dedicates more time to weight training, perhaps to the detriment of additional shooting drills. And never since the NBA added its 3-point line back in 1979-'80 have treys been hoisted more frequently by more pedestrian shooters, driving down shooting accuracy league-wide. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that Boston's Antoine Walker -- a post-up forward to be sure -- has attempted more three-pointers this season (196) than all but two players in the entire league.

Also factoring into the decline in offensive output is the increase in college underclassmen -- many of whom arrive at the "Next Level" ill-prepared with solid basketball foundations. In the five NBA Drafts between 1986 and 1990, 58 underclassmen declared themselves eligible. In the NBA Drafts from 1996 to 2000, the number rose to 153. Perhaps not coincidentally, three of the four-worst league-wide shooting seasons in history occurred in this span.

From a Laker Blog: The NBA will never admit to it publically, but zone defense was primarily legalized to contain Shaquille O'neal. Shaquille simply could not be guarded by one man, it was just not possible. It's a lopsided mismatch regardless of whoever is guarding him. Add Kobe Bryant to that team and it is plain to see that the league would be dominated for a long time to come. Therefor, in order to even out the playing field, the league legalized zone defense.

Yet since 2004 Shaq shot 60+ percent 5 times, 59 2 times, prior to this his high was .599 one time(Zone didn't stop Shaq's efficiency)

Zone Myth...as of Dec 22, 2005

Here's a look at the NBA's top five in scoring points in the paint (through Tuesday 2005):

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Zone Defense Makes it harder to get into the mid to close range area for perimeter stars: From NBA.COM % of pts scored INSIDE of 15 ft or FT line 2010

Tyriq Evans (a rookie): 82%..714 pts on layups/dunks
D-Wade: 75%..762 pts on dunks/layups
Carmelo: 71%..652 pts on dunks/layups
Durant: 70%..602 pts on layups/dunks
LBJ: 68%..754 pts on layups/dunks
Kobe: 66%..460 pts on layups/dunks
B. Roy: 63%..346 pts on layups/dunks

The other myth of taller and longer players

SURVEY OF HEIGHT, WEIGHT, AGE AND EXPERIENCE SINCE 1985

Team Height Weight Age Exp.

1985-86 6’ 7.36” 214.40 26.72 3.85

1986-87 6’ 7.62” 215.46 26.53 3.83

1987-88 6’ 7.38” 215.61 27.01 4.10

1988-89 6’ 7.31” 215.58 26.92 4.01

1989-90 6’ 7.09” 214.82 26.79 3.95

1990-91 6’ 7.16” 216.16 27.01 4.08

1991-92 6’ 7.04” 216.47 27.09 4.20

1992-93 6’ 7.06” 219.86 27.19 4.15

1993-94 6’ 7.34” 221.68 27.26 4.28

1994-95 6’ 7.19” 221.50 27.43 4.56

1995-96 6’ 7.27” 223.66 27.56 4.42

1996-97 6’ 7.20” 223.67 27.74 4.63

1997-98 6’ 7.11” 222.95 27.82 4.82

1998-99 6’ 7.10” 222.85 27.82 4.81

1999-00 6’ 7.26” 224.68 27.95 5.20

2000-01 6’ 7.03” 223.47 27.75 5.01

2001-02 6’ 7.26” 224.05 27.47 4.82

2002-03 6’ 7.40” 225.40 27.34 4.73

2003-04 6' 7.31" 225.45 27.22 4.76

2004-05 6' 7.26" 224.29 27.03 4.61

2004 Rule Changes

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

SJ: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

SJ: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

You also remember when NBA rules expert Rod Thorn said this after the handchecking rule was changed and the defensive 3 second rule:"It's more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball," Thorn said of the change. "I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters."

.....Hmmm so somehow they made it tougher to play defense, but its much harder to shoot a good percentage today

[Calabis]

Koberiders talking about competition and defense....let's see why this hyperathlete didn't just destroy these guys for 50 ppg.. Kobe in 99-2000(4th season and was full time starter) avg 22 pts a game his opposition that year: Reggie Miller, Steve Smith, Nick Anderson,A.Hardaway, Barry, Strickland, Peeler, Daniels, Iverson, Houston, Hughes, Stackhouse, Piatkowski, Posey, Dickerson, Majerle, McGrady, Mobley, Pierce, Pearson, Sealy, Wahad, Eisley, Porter, Richmond, Allen, Sura, Finley, Mercer, Elie, Rider, Legler, Chapman, Griffin, Nesby....lol...the same dudes that at age 34-35 Jordan was avg 28-30ppg against and winning league MVP's

Jon Barry, Bruce Bowen, Allen Houston, Jalen Rose, Reggie Miller, Grant Hill,....are all guys who guarded both guys, they all have the same answer....MJ is the hardest player they ever had to guard

[Yao Ming's Foot]

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:wtf:

Edit that mess into a coherent point please

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Searches wall of text for "defensive rating"

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Edit that mess into a coherent point please

Players today get a higher percentage of their baskets in the paint than in the 80's and 90's. Nice defense :oldlol:

[Calabis]

Keep hearing the young stans talk about zone defense in the NBA, like its the Berlin Wall.....maybe the knocked down version of the Berlin Wall

In 2010

Kobe scored:

460 pts on layups/dunks
572 pts inside 10 ft
862 pts inside of 15 ft
439 pts from the FT line.

Total: 669 pts outside 15+ ft < 1,301 pts INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line.

That means 66% (2/3 of his pts) came inside of 15 ft & the FT line LOL!!

Carmelo (the alleged pure jump shooter) scored:

652 pts on dunks/layups
736 pts inside 10 ft
864 pts inside 15 ft
508 pts from the FT line
571 pts outside 15 f

Total: 1,372 of his total pts came inside 15 ft or the FT line (71% of his total pts)

D-Wade (who doesn't even have MJ's post game or jumper) scored:

762 pts on dunks/layups
894 pts inside 10 ft
996 pts inside 15 ft
534 pts from the FT line
515 pts from outside 15 ft

Total: 1,530 of his total pts came inside 15 ft or from the FT line (75% of his total pts)

I mean it's ridiculous how these new rules have made SO EASY for these guys to score inside..Tony Parker (a 6'1 pt guard) has led the league in pts scored in the paint TWICE!!

Tyriq Evans (a rookie in 2010) scored 714 pts on layups/dunks (84% of his total pts)

Durant scored 602 pts on layups/dunks (70% of his total pts)

LBJ scored 754 pts on layups/dunks (68% of his total pts)

Brandon Roy scored 346 pts on layups/dunks (63% of his total pts)

Joe Johnson scored 324 pts on layups/dunks (42% of his total pts)

The new rules MANUFACTURE perimeter super stars! It's MUCH EASIER for perimeter players to score today than in the Golden Era!

I mean the list of wing players scoring big time pts INSIDE 10-15 ft in tody's game is endless...

Darren Williams scored:

392 pts on layups/dunks
486 pts inside 10 ft
528 inside 15 ft
335 pts from the FT line
556 pts from outside 15 ft

Total: 863 of his total pts came INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line (61% of his total pts)

Dirk Nowitzki (not a great athlete & terrible foot speed) scored:

328 pts on layups/dunks
416 pts inside 10 ft
718 pts inside 15 ft
536 pts from the FT line
773 pts outside 15 ft

Total: 1,254 of his total pts came INSIDE 15 ft or the FT line (62% of his toal pts)

If today's pseudo zone defenses are SO DAMN HARD TO GET HIGH % SHOTS AGAINST, WHY are SO MANY of these "elite" wing guys scoring the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of their pts INSIDE of 15 ft? Can someone please explain why its harder today....because "The Mythical Zone Theory" is complete nonsense

[Knoe Itawl]

Good post but simple question. Did you ever noticed how it's ALWAYS Bryant Fanatics that talk about Jordan playing in some sort of weak era? Not even Kobe fans, I'm talking about the mindless troll idiots that NO ONE takes serious ala Alpha Wolf, Yao Ming's Foot, Bladers, etc.

So why bother to act like they have some sort of credible argument? They are a very loud, obnoxious, idiotic, ignorant, hero worshipping small minority of the basketball world with a clear agenda.

NO ONE with any sense gives credence to their arguments. Otherwise you'd see many other people agreeing.

So why bother acknowldging them?

[Legends66NBA7]

Calabis, I've been working on a shot chart thread from 2000-01 season till now to showcase the differences of the defenses and rule changes.

The last post was actually what I was aiming for, thanks.


So why bother acknowldging them?

Well it wouldn't be ISH without you going against them either and bringing up virtually the same line of "it's always Bryant fanatics".

Not that you don't have a point, but there are more than one fanatic that pulls this stunt, it just happens to be Bryant fanatics more. I'd say the more uneducated/the ones who didn't watch Jordan who draw conclusions like that.

[Calabis]

Kobe top shelf defender??? This was a article from years back, Tex never had this problem with MJ

Winter also admits that Bryant abandons aspects of the triangle offense with some regularity. But that's not Winter's main complaint with the guard:

"I'd like to see him play better defense," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.

"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he's got to play the game. But it doesn't involve a lot of basically sound defense."

Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."

if you need more proof:

Kobe on his career has the mesmerizing quantity of 8 first place votes for the award... 8 VOTES in his CAREER! Tim Duncan has 43, Pippen 52, These are the players who never won, just like Kobe..


Kobe is by no means the most decorated guard defensively according to the writers... Gary Payton has 132 first place votes, Michael Jordan 65, Alvin Robertson 59, Michael Cooper 34, Mookie Blaylock 25, Doug Christie 14, Eddie Jones 12... just to name a few...

Kobe simply doesn't measure up. Stats don't lie. Defensive Rating is a measure of how many points you allow or stop per 100 possessions... The All time leader is Elmore Smith with 93.72, 2nd Tim Duncan with 94.99, 4th Ben Wallace with 95.37 and then you will see a list of the truly outstanding defenders the NBA had to offer... Even sleepers like Manu Ginobili who sneak in at 25th all time... Where is Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant? Scroll down and you will find the 4th most decorated defensive player lying at the humble spot of 239th on the all time list... with a shade under 105 ppg for DRtg.


Have you heard of +/- stats? (Don't worry, apparently voting coaches neither... But we won't hold it against you...) Do you think Kobe does well in defensive +/-? Well he is errr... well defensively he errr... Let me put it this way, Without Kobe on court the Lakers are scored 103 points per 100 possessions... with him on court 108.

So that tall tale about his intangibles and making those around him better doesn't fly either...

[Calabis]

Good post but simple question. Did you ever noticed how it's ALWAYS Bryant Fanatics that talk about Jordan playing in some sort of weak era? Not even Kobe fans, I'm talking about the mindless troll idiots that NO ONE takes serious ala Alpha Wolf, Yao Ming's Foot, Bladers, etc.

So why bother to act like they have some sort of credible argument? They are a very loud, obnoxious, idiotic, ignorant, hero worshipping small minority of the basketball world with a clear agenda.

NO ONE with any sense gives credence to their arguments. Otherwise you'd see many other people agreeing.

So why bother acknowldging them?

I guess since I see them in every thread bringing it up...it resulted in quite a few threads being created, I only posted this for the new guys who seem to start believing the garbage the trolls spread.....I usually just read, but its been getting out of hand

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Do you think that if you just post enough wall of texts that have nothing to do with defensive rating that you may stumble on a point eventually?

The fact that the pace decreased is irrelevant in terms of defensive rating. Defensive rating is a per possession stat.

Kobe's defense or lack thereof has nothing to do with the merits of citing team defensive ratings.

:confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

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:wtf:

Edit that mess into a coherent point please
03 Wizards>> 93ulls :facepalm :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Do you think that if you just post enough wall of texts that have nothing to do with defensive rating that you may stumble on a point eventually?

The fact that the pace decreased is irrelevant in terms of defensive rating. Defensive rating is a per possession stat.

Kobe's defense or lack thereof has nothing to do with the merits of citing team defensive ratings.

:confusedshrug:


Players today get a higher percentage of their baskets in the paint than in the 80's and 90's. Nice defense :oldlol:

:confusedshrug:

Guess these "hyper athletes" need to learn how to shoot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:confusedshrug:

Guess these "hyper athletes" need to learn how to shoot.

"Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season."

How would we know how points in the paint were scored in the 80s and 90s if they only started tracking them in 2001.

:wtf:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not this garbage again about how it's easier to score now



84-97 = 49.1%eFG
2005-present = 49.4%eFG

[Droid101]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/155/747/didn't%20read%20lol.png

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not this garbage again about how it's easier to score now



84-97 = 49.1%eFG
2005-present = 49.4%eFG

What does this tell us about the # of FT's handed out to perimeter players? What does it tell us about the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players in each era? Absolutely nothing.

[Legends66NBA7]

What does this tell us about the # of FT's handed out to perimeter players? What does it tell us about the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players in each era? Absolutely nothing.

It's also a team stat as well.

He keeps posting it, ignoring the topic at hand.

[Calabis]

Jordan Rules fake?

In an interview with Sports Illustrated, Daly described the Jordan Rules as:

[NumberSix]

Didn't read. OP is a phaggit :)

[La Frescobaldi]

This is exactly what I've been saying for decades; the NBA stopped running and started jogging.... slower and slower.... until today it's almost a crawl.

The most exciting teams in history have been the fast break teams - the 60s Celtics, the early 70s Lakers, the Showtime Lakers & 80s Celtics, recently the Suns.............

Half court ball is great - it's the NBA!! - but it's a mighty poor excuse for what these guys SHOULD be doing.

Non-stop sprinting used to be one of the main components of basketball. The old Spectrum used to just echo with the sound of two teams racing down the court. Sometimes it sounded like a herd of stampeding buffalo. You don't see more than 4 or 5 minutes of transition in an entire game today.

This is a brilliant analysis.

[La Frescobaldi]

Didn't read. OP is a phaggit :)
That's okay, it's probably too advanced anyhow.

[Odinn]

1990s and first half of 2000s;

Defensive bigs?
Ewing, Robinson, Rodman, Mourning, Olajuwon, Mutombo, Wallace, Shaq (coz of his size mainly), Duncan, Garnett

Defensive perimeter players?
Jordan, Pippen, Payton, Kidd, Artest, Stockton, Young Bryant, Dumars

Can current players compete with this group?..

We don't need that much text. Defensive era for real because there was so many great defenders. Done.

[Living Being]

Who is SJ?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

More walls of text with no clear connection to defensive ratings

:applause:

[Calabis]

Do you think that if you just post enough wall of texts that have nothing to do with defensive rating that you may stumble on a point eventually?

The fact that the pace decreased is irrelevant in terms of defensive rating. Defensive rating is a per possession stat.

Kobe's defense or lack thereof has nothing to do with the merits of citing team defensive ratings.

:confusedshrug:

Its called reading comprehension, if I miss more shots, because I'm taking less efficient shots(more 3's), it tends to equal more defensive stops. If the floor is spread and offensive rebounding is down, I'm not gaining more possessions, that too tends to lead to more defensive stops....if you can't understand how this can effect Defensive Ratings, then please quit posting on this subject

[Calabis]

Who is SJ?

Stu Jackson, him along with Rod Thorn implemented the rule changes, but hey what does he know.....Yao Ming the keyboard hero is saying its much more difficult

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its called reading comprehension, if I miss more shots, because I'm taking less efficient shots(more 3's), it tends to equal more defensive stops. If the floor is spread and offensive rebounding is down, I'm not gaining more possessions, that too tends to lead to more defensive stops....if you can't understand how this can effect Defensive Ratings, then please quit posting on this subject

3s are worth more points than 2s... . A made 2 pt shot 50% is the same as made 3 pt shot 33% of the time on a point per possession basis.

Offensive rebounding is down because teams are actually running back on defense instead of an endless stream of fast breaks

:facepalm

[bdreason]

Ever think teams stopped running because transition defense improved?


Run-N-gun offense doesn't work when teams consistently get back to content shots, and rebound the ball.

[NumberSix]

The answer is simple. Short white guys.

[Calabis]

3s are worth more points than 2s... . A made 2 pt shot 50% is the same as made 3 pt shot 33% of the time on a point per possession basis.

Offensive rebounding is down because teams are actually running back on defense instead of an endless stream of fast breaks

:facepalm

:facepalm

Jesus please help this kid, I just posted a damn article, where the guy has taken in almost every offensive stat and explained the gains and losses, in your so called toughest defensive era, he explains the reason why compared to other decades of "weak Mj era" basketball

NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago.

he explais this^^^^^, if you refuse to read and comprehend then enjoy holding on to your theories

[madmax]

Ever think teams stopped running because transition defense improved?


Run-N-gun offense doesn't work when teams consistently get back to content shots, and rebound the ball.

this...any moron who thinks that 80's defenses were actually better than now is completely deluded and should be transported back to the past. They were literally running back and forth back then with little defensive pressure applied...LMAO

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm

Jesus please help this kid, I just posted a damn article, where the guy has taken in almost every offensive stat and explained the gains and losses, in your so called toughest defensive era, he explains the reason why compared to other decades of "weak Mj era" basketball

NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago.

he explais this^^^^^, if you refuse to read and comprehend then enjoy holding on to your theories

Its a points per possession stat you dope :lol

not a points per game stat. It doesn't matter if defenses in the past defended 100 more possessions a game. Its already accounted for in the denominator of the formula.

Your arrogant ignorance is comical.

[Calabis]

Ever think teams stopped running because transition defense improved?
Run-N-gun offense doesn't work when teams consistently get back to content shots, and rebound the ball.

:applause:

I think it has improved, because the floor is more spread, and you don't have bigs commanding the ball on the interior. Nor do you see guys taking a ton of mid range shots....... floor more spread and more guys on the perimeter, should result in guys being able to get back, which slows the game down, which results in less offensive possessions. This is the point.....and why D-Ratings were so low, the game was slow, almost to a stand still, which is why the rule changes were made to help speed up the game and get scoring back to where it once was.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What does this tell us about the # of FT's handed out to perimeter players? What does it tell us about the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players in each era? Absolutely nothing.
League FTA

2010-11: 1998
2009-10: 2013

1989-90: 2338
1988-89: 2363
1987-88: 2388
1986-87: 2498
1985-86: 2482
1984-85: 2408

[Calabis]

Its a points per possession stat you dope :lol

not a points per game stat. It doesn't matter if defenses in the past defended 100 more possessions a game. Its already accounted for in the denominator of the formula.

Your arrogant ignorance is comical.

And the context of those possessions doesn't matter right?

Article:

Offense and defense shouldn't be measured by round numbers but rather by points per possession, or to make it more recognizable in a way we used to are seeing, points per 100 possessions.

Some teams play a faster pace pace than others. While they may give up more points per game, they might actually get stops a higher percentage of the time. That's why advanced stats look at things like "defensive rating" which is the representation of points surrendered per 100 possessions.

Still even that presents a problem. Sometimes defense generates offense and that's something not represented by defensive rating.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And the context of those possessions doesn't matter right?

Article:

Offense and defense shouldn't be measured by round numbers but rather by points per possession, or to make it more recognizable in a way we used to are seeing, points per 100 possessions.

Some teams play a faster pace pace than others. While they may give up more points per game, they might actually get stops a higher percentage of the time. That's why advanced stats look at things like "defensive rating" which is the representation of points surrendered per 100 possessions.

Still even that presents a problem. Sometimes defense generates offense and that's something not represented by defensive rating.

:biggums:

[Asukal]

I'd be surprised if these idiots actually understood the 1st and 2nd post. :roll:

Yao Ming's foot getting owned like a biyatch! :roll:

[Da_Realist]

this...any moron who thinks that 80's defenses were actually better than now is completely deluded and should be transported back to the past. They were literally running back and forth back then with little defensive pressure applied...LMAO

Any quotes, videos or articles, you'd like to share that would back this up? Anything to refute the mountain of quality evidence to the contrary that Calabis posted?

[Da_Realist]

Anybody that doesn't agree...back it up. Should be easy to prove since today's defense is SOOOOO much better.

[Legends66NBA7]

Anybody that doesn't agree...back it up. Should be easy to prove since today's defense is SOOOOO much better.

Which era of defense was the best to you ?

[Calabis]

:biggums:

Thats from a article

Simple if you can actually believe the 96-97 Bulls defense was slightly worse or on par with this years Raptors, than the stat is not a tell all.

I guess I can use offensive ratings then as an excuse, 96-97 Bulls were 114.4(OKC 107.4 this year) that would top any offensive today, so greater offense makes it harder to play great defense, since everything is so black and white in your world.....guess I can use the better offense arguement, if these ratings are a tell all

[Calabis]

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

[B]

[Calabis]

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:

"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."

Cuban got his wish and the already stringent anti-contact rules for perimeter play became even more strict. The unintended backlash ended up blowing up in his face:

"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.

Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span

Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."

[eliteballer]

Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Dirk/Nash/Don Nelson Mavs

No illegal D, players pressure more, Zone allowed.

EVERYONE shot higher back then, not just the dudes who also took 3's.

Are we forgeting that expansion led to teams like Mike Fratellos cavs? Where they purposely slowed down the game because talent was stretched thin an teams couldnt compete offensively?

[Calabis]

^^^^Funny how Cuban and others involved in the game(still today), realize what advantages physical defense can give you....bolded in red, yet somehow not being able to impede someone equates to tougher defense:oldlol:

[eliteballer]

http://www.atlnightspots.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/rose-and-lebron.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.198731!/img/httpImage/image.jpg


http://www.thesportssession.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/celtics3.jpg

http://nbcsportsmedia2.msnbc.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/1224-kobe-lebron-story.standard.jpg

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kobe+Bryant+Jeff+Teague+Atlanta+Hawks+v+Los+dKLpoP _J0iBl.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0731/nba_g_lebron12_576.jpg

http://lebrontalk.com/content/jan06/lebron_kobe/lebron_kobe.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2932/08tmac3xv8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/172/08tmac3xv8.jpg/)

http://tattoostars.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/tattoo_kobe_bryant_tattoos-6.jpg

[eliteballer]

LMAO at you guys acting like players were getting handchecked and mugged on every play. Real physical play on the perimeter in large quantities didnt exist until the late 90's. The only exceptions being some playoff series from earlier.

It matters more now too. Why? Back then guys were bigger on jumpshooting and handles werent as good

[Calabis]

Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Dirk/Nash/Don Nelson Mavs

No illegal D, players pressure more, Zone allowed.
EVERYONE shot higher back then, not just the dudes who also took 3's.

Are we forgeting that expansion led to teams like Mike Fratellos cavs? Where they purposely slowed down the game because talent was stretched thin an teams couldnt compete offensively?

Not sure if this was for me, because I already proved with stats that zone has not prevented anything....how guards are leading the league in "in the paint" scoring, how Shaq shot his highest percentages when the zone was implemented...how teams rarely run zone....Yao's hero hasn't struggled against zone, he ate that up(Phoenix Suns playoffs), he struggled against solid man to man(Celtics/OKC in Finals)..also illegal defense was rarely called back then, there have been vids posted showing this a million times.

[Da_Realist]

Which era of defense was the best to you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFGql4ldkvo

[eliteballer]

Not sure if this was for me, because I already proved with stats that zone has not prevented anything....how guards are leading the league in "in the paint" scoring, how Shaq shot his highest percentages when the zone was implemented...how teams rarely run zone....Yao's hero hasn't struggled against zone, he ate that up(Phoenix Suns playoffs), he struggled against solid man to man(Celtics/OKC in Finals)..also illegal defense was rarely called back then, there have been vids posted showing this a million times.


Zone and illegal D are NOT the same thing. Zone happens in the CONTEXT of illegal D.

Go back to school before you start talking like a scientist:facepalm

[Calabis]

LMAO at you guys acting like players were getting handchecked and mugged on every play. Real physical play on the perimeter in large quantities didnt exist until the late 90's. The only exceptions being some playoff series from earlier.

It matters more now too. Why? Back then guys were bigger on jumpshooting and handles werent as good

Lol at you acting like you can't read and saw that this strategy was effective against your hero.....Kobe would still score back in the day, he's that good, but to act like it wouldn't turn some of those easy lay-ups to jumpshots is comical.

Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE=Calabis]Lol at you acting like you can't read and saw that this strategy was effective against your hero.....Kobe would still score back in the day, he's that good, but to act like it wouldn't turn some of those easy lay-ups to jumpshots is comical.

Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn

[Calabis]

Zone and illegal D are NOT the same thing. Zone happens in the CONTEXT of illegal D.

Go back to school before you start talking like a scientist:facepalm

:wtf: were did I say they were the same thing moron? I said I posted stats showing that the zone has not made a difference.....I then stated illegal defense was not called back then that much(referring to 80's 90's)

[Calabis]

Are you really trying to say that Kobe gets more easy layups now then he would in the run and gun era???:roll:

No I'm saying Kobe would still score, he's a scorer, but what I have posted states that he has struggled against this type of physical defense, unless Mark Cuban is full of shit, so much so that the league changed the rules after he cried and WAde went on a free throw parade

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Thats from a article

Simple if you can actually believe the 96-97 Bulls defense was slightly worse or on par with this years Raptors, than the stat is not a tell all.

I guess I can use offensive ratings then as an excuse, 96-97 Bulls were 114.4(OKC 107.4 this year) that would top any offensive today, so greater offense makes it harder to play great defense, since everything is so black and white in your world.....guess I can use the better offense arguement, if these ratings are a tell all

I believe the era was one one of inflated offensive statistics. Further proven by the Bulls high offensive rating

:confusedshrug:

You simply lack an understanding of what defensive rating measures

[Deuce Bigalow]

No I'm saying Kobe would still score, he's a scorer, but what I have posted states that he has struggled against this type of physical defense, unless Mark Cuban is full of shit, so much so that the league changed the rules after he cried and WAde went on a free throw parade
it didn't seem like anybody struggled to score since %s are identical

1984-1997 = 49.1%eFG
2005-present = 49.4%eFG

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No I'm saying Kobe would still score, he's a scorer, but what I have posted states that he has struggled against this type of physical defense, unless Mark Cuban is full of shit, so much so that the league changed the rules after he cried and WAde went on a free throw parade

Are you seriously trying to equate 80s and 90s defenses with 2004 defense?

:oldlol:

The league average defensive rating in 04 was 102.9

[thelucifer69]

The answer is simple. Short white guys.

Thought you didn't read.:coleman: :coleman:

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFGql4ldkvo

Thanks for the link, though I'm already subbed to your channel and I do catch most of these games.

Is it possible you can get a hold of some games from the 70's ?

[Calabis]

http://www.atlnightspots.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/rose-and-lebron.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.198731!/img/httpImage/image.jpg


http://www.thesportssession.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/celtics3.jpg

http://nbcsportsmedia2.msnbc.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/1224-kobe-lebron-story.standard.jpg

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kobe+Bryant+Jeff+Teague+Atlanta+Hawks+v+Los+dKLpoP _J0iBl.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0731/nba_g_lebron12_576.jpg

http://lebrontalk.com/content/jan06/lebron_kobe/lebron_kobe.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2932/08tmac3xv8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/172/08tmac3xv8.jpg/)

http://tattoostars.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/tattoo_kobe_bryant_tattoos-6.jpg

Sorry I see more of this

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/handchecking%204.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordanjockers just can't accept the facts.
It's sad really

[thelucifer69]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/559/682/mchale-rambis-clothesline-1_display_image.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2059/2458795349_9fb84f23f7_o.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/559/702/mjandlaimbeer_display_image.jpg
http://www.mymj.nl/michaeljordan/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jordan-vs-pistons-1991.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/bulls/pippen_050427.jpg

these're a famous ones happen every time they 2 meet.

their ton of hard foul that you can't find any pics cause it regular back then.

nowadays it very rare even with the internet media you don't see much of this

[eliteballer]

I can post pics of the harder fouls of this era and pretend they happened on every play too:roll:

[Calabis]

Jordanjockers just can't accept the facts.
It's sad really

LMAO what facts have you posted.....that teams are shooting the same percentage now as they were back then....how is this possible with all these great defenses.....why did they need to change the rules to up the FG% and scoring? Let me guess you won't answer that right?

[Calabis]

I can post pics of the harder fouls of this era and pretend they happened on every play too:roll:

Similar to your pic parade acting like guys are getting steer'd away from basket every play

[Legends66NBA7]

I can post pics of the harder fouls of this era and pretend they happened on every play too

So post them.

[thelucifer69]

I can post pics of the harder fouls of this era and pretend they happened on every play too:roll:

Can you post 10 pics hard foul that happen with same 2 team.

In this era hard foul once a year
Back then once a game

[Leviathon1121]

Jordanjockers just can't accept the facts.
It's sad really

What facts, none of you have posted anything other then plz luv my Kobe over and over and over.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LMAO what facts have you posted.....that teams are shooting the same percentage now as they were back then....how is this possible with all these great defenses.....why did they need to change the rules to up the FG% and scoring? Let me guess you won't answer that right?
Efficiency is the same back then as it is today. So how is defense "better"? LMAO

[Calabis]

So post them.

He can't because fouls like these who result in an ejection and suspension


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll19le7Not1qb9lruo1_500.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

What facts, none of you have posted anything other then plz luv my Kobe over and over and over.
Efficiency is the same today as it was back then.

That is a fact jocker.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Fouling players isn't good defense

:oldlol:

No wonder you guys are so clueless

[Deuce Bigalow]

He can't because fouls like these who result in an ejection and suspension


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll19le7Not1qb9lruo1_500.jpg
OMG he fouled Mickey!

jocker's minds think harder fouls = better defense

[eliteballer]

:roll: It a wonder every player on each team didnt foul out by the half every game since the jordan jockers claim that happened on EVERY play

[KingBeasley08]

Jordan da Gawd :bowdown:

Kobe was a benchwarmer in that weak era :lol :bowdown:

[eliteballer]

:roll: It a wonder every player on each team didnt foul out by the half every game since the jordan jockers claim that happened on EVERY play

[eliteballer]

The games are available for all to see:pimp:

[thelucifer69]

OMG he fouled Mickey!

jocker's minds think harder fouls = better defense

if i hit you in the face and nothing happpen with me would you dare to attack the basket, have you ever play basketball?

[Calabis]

Efficiency is the same back then as it is today. So how is defense "better"? LMAO

Wait, I'm confused, my post was to prove how is it worse???...It was you guys saying defense today is better, which is why people like MJ would score 3 pts a game against these so called juggernauts and hyper athletes...he would be Tony Allen right?

Can u please tell me why they changed the rules to help FG% and Pts rise? I've been waiting for that answer for years

[chazzy]

if i bunch

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wait, I'm confused, my post was to prove how is it worse???...It was you guys saying defense today is better, which is why people like MJ would score 3 pts a game against these so called juggernauts and hyper athletes...he would be Tony Allen right?

Can u please tell me why they changed the rules to help FG% and Pts rise? I've been waiting for that answer for years
The defense hasn't been better, nor was better.

1984-1997 = 49.1%eFG
2005-present = 49.4%eFG

I already posted this multiple times

[Calabis]

OMG he fouled Mickey!

jocker's minds think harder fouls = better defense

No harder fouls, usually means "make you think twice, before coming in again" and usually results in a "higher physical toll on your body"

[eliteballer]

Efficiency is the same back then as it is today. So how is defense "better"? LMAO

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, how is defense better back then if the efficiency is the same, goes both ways:applause: :roll:

[eliteballer]

Heres the FACT, the games are available for people to watch. Its plain to see for the youngins

[Da_Realist]

Can u please tell me why they changed the rules to help FG% and Pts rise? I've been waiting for that answer for years

^^^ Still waiting...

[Calabis]

:roll: It a wonder every player on each team didnt foul out by the half every game since the jordan jockers claim that happened on EVERY play

Show me one poster that stated this happened every play, you are trying to act like handchecking happens everyplay with yourt pic parade....if you don't think it was a far more physical brand of basketball back then.....oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinions

[Deuce Bigalow]

1984-85: .496 eFG%
1985-86: .493 eFG%
1986-87: .488 eFG%
1987-88: .489 eFG%
1988-89: .489 eFG%
1989-90: .489 eFG%
1990-91: .487 eFG%
1991-92: .487 eFG%
1992-93: .491 eFG%
1993-94: .485 eFG%
1994-95: .500 eFG%
1995-96: .499 eFG%
1996-97: .493 eFG%

2004-05: .482 eFG%
2005-06: .490 eFG%
2006-07: .497 eFG%
2007-08: .497 eFG%
2008-09: .500 eFG%
2009-10: .501 eFG%
2010-11: .498 eFG%
2011-12: .485 eFG%

No difference.

[Cali Syndicate]

OMG he fouled Mickey!

jocker's minds think harder fouls = better defense

It's not just harder fouls, it's the fact they were allowed to be physical.

[Da_Realist]

You change the rules, the players adjust :confusedshrug:

They DID change the rules. All these stats saying fg% is the same... doesn't mean anything when the league ADMITTED to changing the rules to increase scoring. The league ADMITTED it. What more do you want?

[Calabis]

They DID change the rules. All these stats saying fg% is the same... doesn't mean anything when the league ADMITTED to changing the rules to increase scoring. The league ADMITTED it. What more do you want?

FG% same, scoring not so much....


107.0 ppg in 1990 to a low of 91.6 ppg in the lockout shortened 1999 season, As of 2006-07, recent rules changes that were intended to increase scoring still had not boosted that number back to triple digits

[Da_Realist]

why did they need to change the rules to up the FG% and scoring?


Can u please tell me why they changed the rules to help FG% and Pts rise? I've been waiting for that answer for years

The league started seeing an influx of AAU-bred wanna-be MJ athletes that didn't know how to play team ball and didn't have the FUNDAMENTALS to handle tough, physical defense so scoring went down. That's why the older teams were dominating so much in the late 90's -- Bulls, Jazz, Rockets, Pacers -- while the young talented teams faded hard when the playoffs came around. The Jazz beat the younger, way more talented Lakers 8 out of 9 playoff games in 2 years starting in 1997. The Washington Bullets, Miami Heat and New Jersey Nets were getting beat without much of a fight, too.

Scoring went way down and so did fan enthusiasm. So...the NBA got tired of hearing complaints about all the 75-70 scores and decided to open up the lanes, get rid of the excessive physical contact and call the games more tightly. Voil

[cteach111]

The league started seeing an influx of AAU-bred wanna-be MJ athletes that didn't know how to play team ball and didn't have the FUNDAMENTALS to handle tough, physical defense so scoring went down. That's why the older teams were dominating so much in the late 90's -- Bulls, Jazz, Rockets, Pacers -- while the young talented teams faded hard when the playoffs came around. The Jazz beat the younger, way more talented Lakers 8 out of 9 playoff games in 2 years starting in 1997. The Washington Bullets, Miami Heat and New Jersey Nets were getting beat without much of a fight, too.


MJ didn't know how to play team ball either until Phil Jackson came along.. something other AAU-bred wanna-be MJ athletes didn't have :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

MJ didn't know how to play team ball either until Phil Jackson came along.. something other AAU-bred wanna-be MJ athletes didn't have :confusedshrug:

He did. He just wasn't blessed enough to be drafted to the most talented team in the league. He had to turn around a franchise instead.

[j3lademaster]

I honestly don't understand why it's Kobe fans who are more concerned about this "more physical era" crap. Kobe plays an all time great level post game and that's where he gets most of his points- along with j's off the dribble and fadeaways off pump fakes. Kobe's game would translate into any era and he'd be fine in the 90's. The defensive 3 second rules and the more physical play around the basket would only hurt players like Wade, Rose, Westbrook. Kobe will still put up his ~30 points with ~the same efficiency as he does today, so it's okay. Everything will be all right, Kobe fans.

Another big issue I see with players today is everyone with decent and better handles like to dribble for 20 seconds of the shot clock. The 90's had better ball movement. Hell, even if you watch MJ in iso he'd rarely take more than 3 dribbles to find his shot.

The 90's was more physical. Deal with it.

[SlayerEnraged]

As you guys know, we have a certain poster who for the past year or so, keeps posting D ratings, yet he doesn't support any of his posts with reasons...here is a lenghty repost of why things are the way they are. Examples, more three point shooting=more misses, tends to result in a defensive stops, more offensive rebounding tends to equal more possessions, resulting in more scoring opportunities. Better, more quality bigs shooting 50+ percent, on the inside

Here are the reasons for the drop, not all this mythical garbage about great defenses from 98-04 and these so called great zones of today

Despite the dip in 3-point percentage, overall scoring is up this season. The league is scoring more than 200 points per game (200.01 to be precise) for the first time since the 1994-95 season. But that's more about pace than offensive efficiency. At 95.2 possessions per team per 48 minutes, this is the fastest pace the league has played at in the last 10 years. Efficiency is actually down from last season as the league is scoring 104.2 points per 100 possessions, down from 105.4 in 2008-09.

Along with the dip in 3-point percentage, the mid-range game continues to fade. The percentage of mid-range points (points not scored at the line, in the paint or beyond the arc) is down to just 20.6 percent. Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season. Those baskets account for 41.7 percent of all points this season, up from 40.1 percent a year ago.(So much for this zone myth of keeping perimeter guys out of the lanes)

Scoring from the mid-range area isn't a trend that good offensive teams have. Chicago scores 26.9 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 27th offensively. Detroit scores 26.6 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 26th offensively. Dallas (25.2 percent, 10th) and Portland (24.9 percent, seventh) go against the grain, thanks to the shooting of Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge.


http://www.82games.com/scorers.htm

Article from 2004: We'll begin with playing slower, which teams have become a little too good at during the David Stern era. In '84-85, the average NBA team used 104.8 possessions in a 48-minute game. By last year, the league had come to a screeching halt, using just 92.0 possessions per game. NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago. In other words, the biggest reason for the 17-point decrease in scoring isn't due to bad shooting, bad passing, changes in officiating or even the oft-cited increase in high-school aged kids entering the league. The main reason that offense has declined so much is because teams have stopped running. The change in pace alone accounts for 76.2 percent of the decline in scoring since '84-85. If the league reverted to the same pace it played at two decades ago, teams would average about 106.7 points a game.

While a slower pace is the main culprit in lower scores, that doesn't let offenses off the hook. Regardless of the speed with which the game is played, teams have become less efficient on the offensive end. In fact, even after we adjust for the fewer number of possessions teams use, there's still a 4.1 points-per-game difference that results from teams getting less out of each trip down the floor. This is noteworthy since the increased use of the 3-pointer should have produced the opposite effect.

1984-85 2003-04 Change
Points per game 110.8 93.4 -17.4
Possessions/game 104.8 92.0 -12.8
Points/possession 1.05 1.01 -.04
Field-goal pct. 49.1 43.9 -5.2
Free-throw pct. 76.4 75.2 -1.2
3-point pct. 28.1 34.7 +6.6
Off. Rebound pct. 32.9 28.7 -4.2FTA/FGA .330 .303 -.207
Turnovers/possession .169 .154 -.015


Offenses are actually quite a bit better than those of the past when it comes to holding onto the ball. Teams turned the ball over on 16.9 percent of their possessions two decades ago, but did so just 15.4 percent of the time in '03-04. Since teams score about 1.2 points on each possession without a turnover, the difference adds about 1.9 points per game to offenses. The cause of the turnover decline is no mystery -- with teams running less, they have fewer chances for open-court miscues.

But those gains are exactly offset by a decline in offensive rebounding. In '84-85, offenses grabbed the board on 32.9 percent of missed shots, but by '03-04 that had declined to 28.7 percent. That difference has cost offenses 2.0 points per game, and it probably results from 3-point shooters being spaced too far away from the basket to have a prayer of getting an offensive board.

However, that still leaves the lion's share of the responsibility in decreased offensive efficiency at the doorstep of a common complaint: Declining shooting. Since '84-85, field-goal percentages have sunk roughly in proportion to Billy Squier's albums sales, from 49.1 percent to 43.9 percent last season. Sharp minds in the audience will quickly note that the 3-pointer is a much more prevalent part of modern offenses (teams try more than five times as many as they did two decades ago), so we should expect field-goal percentages to be lower in return for the greater payoff. Yet even allowing for the rise of the 3-pointer, shooting is still in the dumpster. Teams averaged 0.99 points for each field-goal attempt in 1984-85, but just 0.94 last season. That five-hundreths of a percentage point difference is enough to subtract 2.9 points a game from offenses.

That goes to underscore that the 3-pointer has, on balance, not had much of an effect. On the one hand, players shoot the long bomb much more accurately than twenty years ago -- improving from 28.1 percent to 34.7 percent -- which has added 1.9 points per game to scoring.

But there's a hidden cost to all of those 3s. Because they're bombing away instead of going to the rim, teams are getting to the line much less often. Teams took 0.33 free-throws per field-goal attempt back then, but only 0.30 last season, a change that cost teams about 1.7 points a game -- giving back nearly all of the difference from the increase in 3-point accuracy.

Our study tells us two things about the state of scoring. First, pace is a much bigger factor than the decline in offensive efficiency. Second, the main cause of the dip in efficiency is the sharp drop in 2-point field-goal percentage.

Okay Jordan dick suckers get u to stfu

What Happened from the 84-85 Season Through 1989-90 Season What happened during MJ’s first 3 peat
3 Players other than Jordan averaged 30ppg for a season. 0 players other than Jordan averaged 30ppg for a season.
5 Players other than Jordan averaged 29ppg for a season. 1 player besides Jordan averaged 29 ppg for a season.
10 Players other than Jordan averaged 28ppg for a season. 3 players other than Jordan averaged 28ppg for a season.
13 Players other than Jordan averaged 27ppg for a season. 4 players other than Jordan averaged 27ppg for a season.
16 Players other than Jordan averaged 26ppg for a season. 7 players other than Jordan averaged 26ppg for a season.
18 Players other than Jordan averaged 25ppg for a season. 11 players other than Jordan averaged 25ppg for a season.
23 Players other than Jordan averaged 24ppg for a season 11players other than Jordan averaged 24ppg for a season.
32 Players other than Jordan averaged 23ppg for a season. 15 players other than Jordan averaged 24ppg for a season.
31 Times a perimeter player besides MJ showed up on the top 20 scoring list. 16 times a perimeter players besides MJ showed up on the top 20 scoring list.
2 perimeter players besides MJ averaged 30 ppg for a season. No perimeter player managed to score 30ppg for a season.
5 perimeter players besides MJ averaged 29ppg for a season. 1 perimeter player besides MJ averaged 29ppg for a season.
6 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 28ppg for a season. 2 perimeter players besides MJ averaged 28ppg for a season.
8 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 27ppg for a season. 2 perimeter players besides MJ averaged 27ppg for a season.
9 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 26ppg for a season. 3 perimeter players besides MJ averaged 26ppg for a season.
10 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 25ppg for a season. 5 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 25ppg for a season.
12 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 24ppg for a season. 5 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 24ppg for a season.
18 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 23ppg for a season. 8 Perimeter players besides MJ averaged 23ppg for a season.
From 1985-93 there were 32 perimeter players on the top 20 scoring in the western conference vs. 16 in the Eastern Conference.

[SlayerEnraged]

[QUOTE=SlayerEnraged]Okay Jordan dick suckers get u to stfu

What Happened from the 84-85 Season Through 1989-90 Season What happened during MJ

[eliteballer]

You know why they changed the rules in the 2000's and NOT the 90's or 80's? Because in the 2000's is when it was getting absurd with the physicality.

Oh by the way...



1978-79
• Number of referees officiating game increased from two to three.
• Rolling the ball on the floor from out of bounds now allowed; penalty of loss of possession eliminated.
• Technical foul imposed on team instead of warning for first illegal defense and two technical fouls imposed for second and all subsequent violations. Illegal defense rules modified.
• Clarification added instructing players and coaches to proceed directly to dressing rooms, without pause or delay, following halftime. Previous rule only stated at conclusion of game.
• Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.
• The three-point field goal is tried in pre-season.


http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

I actually wanted to know a little bit more about that rule change as well... although, your setting yourself up.

[Leviathon1121]

Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe. Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe.

Yep. :roll:

[The Iron Fist]

Good post but simple question. Did you ever noticed how it's ALWAYS Bryant Fanatics that talk about Jordan playing in some sort of weak era? Not even Kobe fans, I'm talking about the mindless troll idiots that NO ONE takes serious ala Alpha Wolf, Yao Ming's Foot, Bladers, etc.

So why bother to act like they have some sort of credible argument? They are a very loud, obnoxious, idiotic, ignorant, hero worshipping small minority of the basketball world with a clear agenda.

NO ONE with any sense gives credence to their arguments. Otherwise you'd see many other people agreeing.

So why bother acknowldging them?
Sounds like Jordan jockers and how they talk about the 60s and 70s.

So, whats the difference?


Nothing.

People praising Kobe just hurts your feelings because they don't agree with you.

[The Iron Fist]

He did. He just wasn't blessed enough to be drafted to the most talented team in the league. He had to turn around a franchise instead.


:biggums:

Turning a franchise around is winning a championship within the first 3 years.

Jordan never did that because his impact wasn't that great.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]The league started seeing an influx of AAU-bred wanna-be MJ athletes that didn't know how to play team ball and didn't have the FUNDAMENTALS to handle tough, physical defense so scoring went down. That's why the older teams were dominating so much in the late 90's -- Bulls, Jazz, Rockets, Pacers -- while the young talented teams faded hard when the playoffs came around. The Jazz beat the younger, way more talented Lakers 8 out of 9 playoff games in 2 years starting in 1997. The Washington Bullets, Miami Heat and New Jersey Nets were getting beat without much of a fight, too.

Scoring went way down and so did fan enthusiasm. So...the NBA got tired of hearing complaints about all the 75-70 scores and decided to open up the lanes, get rid of the excessive physical contact and call the games more tightly. Voil

[The Iron Fist]

The young players couldn't shoot myth is a funny one. If they lacked shooting fundamentals what makes you think they did not also lack defensive fundamentals to cancel it out. They have to play both sides of the court, if their terrible shooting was lowering defensive ratings, their terrible defense was also increasing defensive ratings.
:applause:

[Leviathon1121]

Please, for the love of god, luv my Kobe.

Keeps getting better and better.

[The Iron Fist]

:mad: :rant :cry: :mad: :(
:roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

Turning a franchise around is winning a championship within the first 3 years.

There's no rule to that at all and winning 1 title in one's 3rd year of existence and not winning another title again isn't much to brag about either (not saying it's not great though, because that was a great team).

Kareem requested a trade from the Bucks because of reasons that didn't fit his cultural needs.

Jordan went on to win 6 titles as the main man for the same franchise that drafted him. So it took him his 7th year but it was much more dominant way he won them, 2 3-peats in an 8 year span.

Props to both of them for bringing title to a franchise that didn't have any before, but Jordan's impact was more significant to his franchise.

[andgar923]

Which era of defense was the best to you ?

to me it's the early to mid 90s.

Jordan Rules evolved and other teams adapted and in some cases enhanced them.

Then it got too physical and the league began to water down and slowly implement changes to pussyfy the league.

[The Iron Fist]

There's no rule to that at all and winning 1 title in one's 3rd year of existence and not winning another title again isn't much to brag about either (not saying it's not great though, because that was a great team).

Kareem requested a trade from the Bucks because of reasons that didn't fit his cultural needs.

Jordan went on to win 6 titles as the main man for the same franchise that drafted him. So it took him his 7th year but it was much more dominant way he won them, 2 3-peats in an 8 year span.

Props to both of them for bringing title to a franchise that didn't have any before, but Jordan's impact was more significant to his franchise.

Kareem impacted his team immediately.

Jordan took 7 seasons to get it done. His impact is horribly overrated.

[andgar923]

Kareem impacted his team immediately.

Jordan took 7 seasons to get it done. His impact is horribly overrated.
:rolleyes:

[Legends66NBA7]

to me it's the early to mid 90s.

Jordan Rules evolved and other teams adapted and in some cases enhanced them.

Then it got too physical and the league began to water down and slowly implement changes to pussyfy the league.

Yeah, it seems to be a lot of 90's era getting the pick.

My favourite example of a defensive gem was Game 3, 1998 Finals. Bulls holding the Jazz to 54 points. That to me is very impressive and very telling of a defensive clinic.


Kareem impacted his team immediately.

Jordan took 7 seasons to get it done. His impact is horribly overrated.

I don't really see how it's overrated when he lead his team to the first 3 peat since Bill Russell's Celtics... and then did twice in 96-98. Again, it's about the consistency and staying power for what he did.

[Da_Realist]

:biggums:

Turning a franchise around is winning a championship within the first 3 years.

Jordan never did that because his impact wasn't that great.

He practically missed the 86 Season due to an injury. So we're now talking about 6 years. So...in 6 full seasons played, the Bulls went from below .500, no playoffs, drawing 5000 people, 4 different coaches and 2 different GM's to starting a run winning 6 titles in 8 years, selling out every game and being the major draw on the road with MJ as the centerpiece of the team.

That's not impressive to you? Of course it's not. :rolleyes:

Like I said, he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He had to work to get his in a league dominated by great teams.

[Calabis]

I believe the era was one one of inflated offensive statistics. Further proven by the Bulls high offensive rating

:confusedshrug:

You simply lack an understanding of what defensive rating measures

You lack an understanding of the context of those possessions, I believe it was Mickau who destroyed ur ass a long time ago, proving to you with several links, and all kinds of data that proved pace effects d rating.

Now I site offensive ratings which is the same formula used and its inflated, yet the d rating years ur stuck on are not :wtf:

[TheMan]

Kareem impacted his team immediately.

Jordan took 7 seasons to get it done. His impact is horribly overrated.
This Kobe kid is just clueless, I'm not surprised though:facepalm

Even his idol is what he would call a Jordanjocker:lol

[La Frescobaldi]

This Kobe kid is just clueless, I'm not surprised though:facepalm

Even his idol is what he would call a Jordanjocker:lol

loooooooooooooooll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheMan words of power:

http://c3.yousaytoo.com/rss_temp_image/pics/64/100/33/6521064/remote_image20111116-17389-1xcyvu-0.jpg

[Asukal]

This Kobe kid is just clueless, I'm not surprised though:facepalm

Even his idol is what he would call a Jordanjocker:lol

LOL! So true... their idol is probably Jordan's biggest fan to be honest. :roll:

[bwink23]

More walls of text with no clear connection to defensive ratings

:applause:


2003 Wizards >>>>> 1991 Chicago Bulls defensively....

That's YOUR connection with defensive ratings...

Any MORON can see the absolute flawed nature of defensive ratings.

That shit just slaps you in the face. Defensive ratings are only comparable per ERA, not cross era's moron.

And if your pee brain loses sight of that very quickly, than refer to the bolded text to get kicked in your nuts again.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2003 Wizards >>>>> 1991 Chicago Bulls defensively....

That's YOUR connection with defensive ratings...

Any MORON can see the absolute flawed nature of defensive ratings.

That shit just slaps you in the face. Defensive ratings are only comparable per ERA, not cross era's moron.

And if your pee brain loses sight of that very quickly, than refer to the bolded text to get kicked in your nuts again.

:lol

So angry

Are we only allowed to compare Jordan's offensive inflated stats to the current era?

Can we compare Elgin Baylor's 38.3 ppg in 62 to Jordan's best 37.1 ppg in 87?

You guys just want to keep the inflated offensive stats and ignore the inflated defensive stats.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You lack an understanding of the context of those possessions, I believe it was Mickau who destroyed ur ass a long time ago, proving to you with several links, and all kinds of data that proved pace effects d rating.

Now I site offensive ratings which is the same formula used and its inflated, yet the d rating years ur stuck on are not :wtf:

:oldlol:

What is it you with guys citing some nameless post that supposedly disproved defensive rating? Wasn't that the point of you starting this thread? Except it turns out you don't know what defensive rating actually measures so instead you just copy and pasted an incomprehensible wall of text?

[juju151111]

:oldlol:

What is it you with guys citing some nameless post that supposedly disproved defensive rating? Wasn't that the point of you starting this thread? Except it turns out you don't know what defensive rating actually measures so instead you just copy and pasted an incomprehensible wall of text?
03 Wizards>>> 91 Bulls all that's need to be said

[Da_Realist]

The 90's was more physical. Deal with it.

Look at how the Pacers physical play forced the Bulls to change their defensive strategy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbFmFTmYEEc

The first hit on Pippen happened right in front of the ref. No foul.