Why Doesn't Lebron Get More Hate for his Failures in Finals vs The Spurs?

[brahmabull117]

His numbers were absolutely godawful and the Cavs were swept in 4 games that were all decided by about 4 or 5 points on average


Cleveland should have won the championship last year and would have won the championship if Lebron just scored his usual regular season numbers. How can a guy be considered the best player in the league when he's 2-8 in the finals with numbers way below his regular season numbers?

[SpecialQue]

:lebronamazed:

Wait, I mean :lebroncry:

[Lebron23]

Are you an idiot or mentally retarded? LeBron led one of the weakest teams in NBA history to the NBA Finals back in 2007. Debrick " My NBA Career will soon to over before I turn 29" Rose is not capable of leading that team in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

[EnoughSaid]

Because maybe LeBron was 22 years old? :roll: Dude led his team to the Finals at 22 years old. How many people can say that? Most people don't even join the NBA until they're like 23 or 24.

You can't say that Rose's shortcomings in the ECF last year will haunt him forever. He was so young and inexperienced, that it doesn't matter.

[Lebron23]

2007 Spurs defeated an all star studded Phoenix Suns team in the conference finals.

[brahmabull117]

Are you an idiot or mentally retarded? LeBron led one of the weakest teams in NBA history to the NBA Finals back in 2007. Debrick " My NBA Career will soon to over before I turn 29" Rose is not capable of leading that team in the 2nd round of the playoffs.


...so what's your excuse for why Lebron played so terribly?



22 ppg, 35% fg and 69% free throw percentage is the best player in the game?

[Lebron23]

...so what's your excuse for why Lebron played so terribly?



22 ppg, 35% fg and 69% free throw percentage is the best player in the game?


What's Debrick Rose stats in the 2011 Conference Finals? LeBron and the Cavaliers were outplayed by a much superior San Antonio Spurs team.

[brahmabull117]

2007 Spurs defeated an all star studded Phoenix Suns team in the conference finals.


great, and if the Spurs beat the Cavs with Lebron averaging 35 points per game and shooting 50% from the field...then yea I would say it's because Lebron played on a bad team


They won 4 close games with Lebron shooting 35% from the field and 69% from the free throw line, give me a damn break.


Michael Jordan played on some god awful teams at beginning of the career and still put up monster numbers in the playoffs

[thelucifer69]

...so what's your excuse for why Lebron played so terribly?



22 ppg, 35% fg and 69% free throw percentage is the best player in the game?

The Spurs just too strong everyting was on him The Spurs just trap then shut hi down

[brahmabull117]

What's Debrick Rose stats in the 2011 Conference Finals? LeBron and the Cavaliers were outplayed by a much superior San Antonio Spurs team.


What does Rose have to do with this discussion? Rose isn't called the best player in the game

[brahmabull117]

The Spurs just too strong everyting was on him The Spurs just trap then shut hi down


Sounds a lot like what teams did to Jordan his first few years in the playoffs. You want me to show you his numbers?

[LBJDW305]

He's already the most hated player outside of miami or is he not getting enought hate for you? He's the best player on the planet. GIVE HIM A BREAK

[SilkkTheShocker]

The 07 Cavs were by far the most untalented Finals team ever. Their 2nd best player was a 2nd round pick rookie. Lebron played like crap, but I can't imagine it would be easy playing 1 on 5 against a team like the Spurs

[dunksby]

I think Lebron has received and is receiving enough hate already.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Are you an idiot or mentally retarded? LeBron led one of the weakest teams in NBA history to the NBA Finals back in 2007. Debrick " My NBA Career will soon to over before I turn 29" Rose is not capable of leading that team in the 2nd round of the playoffs.
As if the east was strong back then....Hell, other than the Bulls and heat, the East STILL sucks compared to the west. I don't see ANYONE doing what Lebron did, not even Lebron himself in the western conference, from 2007 til even now.

[thelucifer69]

Sounds a lot like what teams did to Jordan his first few years in the playoffs. You want me to show you his numbers?

Then you compare LBJ with MJ are you mad?

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LBJ

But that's not the reason to hate him, he's 23 at that time.

[magnax1]

Because he's not really the same player as he is now until 09.

[jb220]

You can put any perimeter player in the history of the NBA on that Cavs team and the Spurs will sweep that series. Those Spurs were historically good, statistically the 2nd best team in NBA history, get real dude. LeBron gave it his all.

[I<3NBA]

because the Cavs overachieved that year. they weren't even supposed to be in that Finals. it was supposed to be Detroit in there.

[Sarcastic]

The 07 Cavs were by far the most untalented Finals team ever. Their 2nd best player was a 2nd round pick rookie. Lebron played like crap, but I can't imagine it would be easy playing 1 on 5 against a team like the Spurs

I'd say the 2001 Sixers and 1994 Knicks are on the same level as the 2007 Cavs in terms of talent minus the top player. But both of those teams had better coaches than the 2007 Cavs.

[Whoah10115]

Because he was a 23 year old who took his shitty team past Detroit, when they had no business not getting swept. And to do so included that epic 4th quarter and OT.




Seriously.

[Alamo]

Jordan played in 35 games, avg 33.6 points a game and 48.1 FG PCT

Lebron has played in 10 finals games, avg 19.5 points a game and FG PCT 41.7


Lebron will never live up to MJ. End of story.

[Whoah10115]

I'd say the 2001 Sixers and 1994 Knicks are on the same level as the 2007 Cavs in terms of talent minus the top player. But both of those teams had better coaches than the 2007 Cavs.



The 94 Knicks? What?!

[Sarcastic]

The 94 Knicks? What?!

Ewing's second option was a supermarket bagboy, and an enforcer with little offensive talent.

Don't get me wrong. I love the 1990s Knicks. But that team completely overachieved in terms of the talent they put on the court. They won with coaching and defense. Not talent.

[Whoah10115]

Ewing's second option was a supermarket bagboy, and an enforcer with little offensive talent.

Don't get me wrong. I love the 1990s Knicks. But that team completely overachieved in terms of the talent they put on the court. They won with coaching and defense. Not talent.





They didn't win with talent but they had good talent and much better talent than the Cavaliers.



Oakley was automatic within 20 feet and was always a very good passer. And he was rightfully an all-star that year. Also one of the best defenders I've ever seen.




John Starks, undrafted or not, had a lot of talent. He was just stupid and it's Riley's fault we didn't win the title. He never reigned Starks in and Starks was never as good again. That Rockets team wasn't really any more talented than we were.

[Sarcastic]

They didn't win with talent but they had good talent and much better talent than the Cavaliers.



Oakley was automatic within 20 feet and was always a very good passer. And he was rightfully an all-star that year. Also one of the best defenders I've ever seen.




John Starks, undrafted or not, had a lot of talent. He was just stupid and it's Riley's fault we didn't win the title. He never reigned Starks in and Starks was never as good again. That Rockets team wasn't really any more talented than we were.

Oakley had a decent set shot, but he wasn't automatic. Starks was essentially JR Smith before there was a JR Smith. Those aren't exactly championship pieces to win a title with. It's certainly not THAT much better than Larry Hughes, Ilgauskas, and Gooden.

I mean, there was no legit #2 option on those Knicks teams. They thought they got one with Charles Smith, but we all know how that turned out.

[j3lademaster]

...so what's your excuse for why Lebron played so terribly?



22 ppg, 35% fg and 69% free throw percentage is the best player in the game?

Because, again, Lebron was only 22 and played against a team as good as any at controlling the pace of a game- keeping it halfcourt. If you've every played ball, it's very hard to get a groove going without transition baskets unless you're a shooter or post player.

Yes, Lebron did "shrink" a little that series. There, are you happy? But it was forgivable back then when Lebron was 22 and it was only his 2nd(?) trip to the playoffs.

[LosBulls]

What's Debrick Rose stats in the 2011 Conference Finals? LeBron and the Cavaliers were outplayed by a much superior San Antonio Spurs team.
What's Lebrick James stats in the 2011 Finals?
Derrick and the Bulls had no other offensive firepower.

[brahmabull117]

Because, again, Lebron was only 22 and played against a team as good as any at controlling the pace of a game- keeping it halfcourt. If you've every played ball, it's very hard to get a groove going without transition baskets unless you're a shooter or post player.

Yes, Lebron did "shrink" a little that series. There, are you happy? But it was forgivable back then when Lebron was 22 and it was only his 2nd(?) trip to the playoffs.


Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he wins a ring that year, absolutely no doubt in my mind


Hell replace Lebron with Durant in the finals and Cleveland wins a ring. There's simply no excuse for shooting 35% from the field and 69% from free throw line



Choke, C - H - O - K - E. Stop giving me the bullsht about not having enough support. Cavaliers were 2-0 against the Spurs in the regular season because Lebron was his usual self

[LABean]

Because his 2011 choke job overshadows it.

[brahmabull117]

Because his 2011 choke job overshadows it.


yep, I'm so tired of people using that excuse of "not enough help"


Cleveland went 2-0 against San Antonio in regular season because Lebron scored 27 ppg on 49% FG


They get swept 0 - 4 against San Antonio in finals with Lebron scoring 22 on 35% and there is not a wave of people outraged by his awful finals performance?

[j3lademaster]

Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he wins a ring that year, absolutely no doubt in my mind


Hell replace Lebron with Durant in the finals and Cleveland wins a ring. There's simply no excuse for shooting 35% from the field and 69% from free throw line



Choke, C - H - O - K - E. Stop giving me the bullsht about not having enough support. Cavaliers were 2-0 against the Spurs in the regular season because Lebron was his usual self

Uh... Ok. No one here is saying Lebron's better than MJ. Durant's a stretch (no pun at his wingspan intended) because Cavs would have no playmaker. I get Lebron's labeled a choker. I'm not defending his '11 finals. I'm just saying he overachieved with that team that year already. At 22. What happened in the finals was acceptable at the time.

[hooops1]

Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he wins a ring that year, absolutely no doubt in my mind


Hell replace Lebron with Durant in the finals and Cleveland wins a ring. There's simply no excuse for shooting 35% from the field and 69% from free throw line



Choke, C - H - O - K - E. Stop giving me the bullsht about not having enough support. Cavaliers were 2-0 against the Spurs in the regular season because Lebron was his usual self

What's with people making disingenuous arguments on here? Or are you just stupid?
LeBron is hated plenty already and your point basically is we should hate him more because he's not as good as MJ?

Then the Durant thing...:biggums:

Good luck bro, you'll be needing it

[Artillery]

He overachieved in a weak Eastern conference and was soundly beaten as soon as his team played an elite squad. Not really deserving of criticism like Kobe's 04 Finals - Kirby was playing with the most dominant big man in the league, had the GOAT coach, AND had homecourt advantage but still lost in five games. Talk about embarassing.

[Legends66NBA7]

I cut him a break, like I would most star players at that age and who were outmatched.

Though, I expected more from him still... Should have taken at least 1 game or been dominant... oh well.

[Rob123]

Could lebron have performed better? Yes absolutely

But I mean a still very tenacious Bruce Bowen was guarding a 22 year old Lebron, of course he had terrible numbers.

[Eric Cartman]

He gets a pass in the finals because he got over at the time silly us all "The Almighty Pistons".

[pauk]

Because he took the worst team in NBA history to the Finals with what was probably the best 4th quarter performance in NBA history in the ECF vs Pistons.... and was 22 years old......

Why couldnt he be better against Spurs? Because they double-triple-quadruple-whateverduple teamed him, trapped him, shaded him and left his roleplayers completely open...... without any fear whatsoever.... because they bricked/airballed/pooped in their pants....

And the last Finals Lebron was actually not sruggling scoring wise... he shot 48% FG... but he was incredibly passive that series as Wade had it going....

[Odinn]

Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he wins a ring that year, absolutely no doubt in my mind


Hell replace Lebron with Durant in the finals and Cleveland wins a ring. There's simply no excuse for shooting 35% from the field and 69% from free throw line



Choke, C - H - O - K - E. Stop giving me the bullsht about not having enough support. Cavaliers were 2-0 against the Spurs in the regular season because Lebron was his usual self
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mr. Jabbar]

As if the east was strong back then....Hell, other than the Bulls and heat, the Heat STILL sucks compared to the west. I don't see ANYONE doing what Lebron did, not even Lebron himself in the western conference, from 2007 til even now.

Smartest post. East was so weak it was the equivalent of advancing to the 2nd round in the west (getting to the finals)

[Mr. Jabbar]

And the last Finals Lebron was actually not sruggling scoring wise... he shot 48% FG... but he was incredibly passive that series as Wade had it going....

he shot 48%, wow....lebron fans just love those fg%

[madmax]

Because he was still too young
Because he didn't have reliable jumper yet
Because Spurs trapped the hell out of him and his rubbish teammates couldn't make a shot to save their lives...

He also got shafted by the refs in the last game on his 3 point game winning attempt, which would bring Cavs one win

[pauk]

Right... because obviously he is not hated enough... :rolleyes:

Running out on hating material or something?

Personally i dont get how you as in this case a non Lebron/Heat fan can "HATE" Lebron for not being godlike all the time... sure if you are a Lebron/Heat fan you may feel disappointed, but hate? ouch, thats a strong word to use upon somebody who just bounces a basketball...... seriously dont understand why the HATE towards him just because he doesnt play up to his standards occasionally when you are not even a fan of his..... shouldnt you be happy as a non Lebron/Heat fan?

Are you telling me that you as a Lebron/Heat HATER would be HAPPY if Lebron was godlike 24-7 and owning your favorite player and favorite team all the time? wtf.... that doesnt make sense....

lol @ these buffoons

[ballerz]

Because the spurs were a much better team

[kNIOKAS]

My question is why he doesn't get credited for getting to the finals... This was basically all AI achieved in his career, yet everybody discounts Cavs' run.

I remember thinking "if he got this far, they are winning the championship. Lebron is godly", but eh, didn't happen. And I do think that was a foul on Bowen when he shot that potential game winning three.

[jbryan1984]

Cause we liked him then :lol


It still amazes me we made it that year. We had much better teams in 08, 09 and 10. We got lucky against Detroit.

[Nick Young]

all his stans give him a free pass for this mighty failure, because bruce bowen, the same man who kobe has lit up time after time, was guarding him.

Apparently Bruce Bowen is an all world god defender so its not lebrons fault for getting shut down by him:facepalm

[Nick Young]

Because maybe LeBron was 22 years old? :roll: Dude led his team to the Finals at 22 years old. How many people can say that? Most people don't even join the NBA until they're like 23 or 24.

You can't say that Rose's shortcomings in the ECF last year will haunt him forever. He was so young and inexperienced, that it doesn't matter.
Mamba was leading his team to the finals and winning rings by this time

[inclinerator]

ur wrong, lebron gets alot of hate cuz he got swept

[Doctor Rivers]

Are you an idiot or mentally retarded? LeBron led one of the weakest teams in NBA history to the NBA Finals back in 2007. Debrick " My NBA Career will soon to over before I turn 29" Rose is not capable of leading that team in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Really? "Debrick"??

[Smoke117]

Cavs had no chance vs the Spurs.

[Bigsmoke]

...so what's your excuse for why Lebron played so terribly?



22 ppg, 35% fg and 69% free throw percentage is the best player in the game?

in 2007 he was not.

[Bigsmoke]

Mamba was leading his team to the finals and winning rings by this time

he was a second option on a team the won a championship. not leading.

[madmax]

Mamba was leading his team to the finals and winning rings by this time

are you sure it was HIM leading the team and not 7'1 300+ lbs paint area monster? Cuz I swear I saw that huge guy carrying Lakers game after game in early 00's...

[DMAVS41]

Maybe because his supporting cast is arguably the worst to ever make the finals. Maybe because the Spurs were a nightmare match up for a young Lebron. Maybe because he was only in his 4th year and only 22 years old coming straight out of high school.

What player that came straight out of high school could have even led that joke of a team to the finals....let alone beat Duncan and the Spurs?

That was a huge accomplishment just to get to the finals that year.

Hate on Lebron for his play last year in the finals....hate on his play in a couple of the games against the Celtics in 10. Other than really those two things, Lebron has performed amazingly well night in night out in both the regular season and playoffs.

I hope people realize that you can pick out a couple of poor moments in every single career ever. Now, last year in the finals is what really does it for me. That was beyond a poor moment. Rail away on him for that...because that should never be let go. Lebron choked worse than any star player I've ever seen in roughly 35 years of being a die hard NBA fan.

[thelucifer69]

Mamba was leading his team to the finals and winning rings by this time

What Kobe lead Lakers to Championship at age 23?:confusedshrug:

are you from Mars?

The first time he lead the Lakers they can't even make playoffs.

[Bigsmoke]

What Kobe lead Lakers to Championship at age 23?:confusedshrug:

are you from Mars?

The first time he lead the Lakers they can't even make playoffs.
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2001/nba_finals_stats.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2002.html
nope. try again

[thelucifer69]

http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2001/nba_finals_stats.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2002.html
nope. try again

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Kyrs-b4ZGTs/T5AacUux5EI/AAAAAAAAAXk/3PwpYKf-O9E/s640/ShaqVsKobe.png

[Kurosawa0]

Because it was an achievement for the Cavs to even be in the Finals that year. His supporting cast consisted of Boobie Gibson, Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, Big Z and Donyel Marshall. The 2012 Bobcats might honestly be better.

To hate on LeBron for the 2007 Finals is just hating because you want an excuse to do so.

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron really gets overrated by the media too much and he has been overrated before he even got to the league. The media emphasizes all the good games he has had, and they let go of all the bad games he has had, especially in the playoffs.

LeBron= Most overrated star of our time. Dude is nothing but empty stats AKA Stat Padder

[JellyBean]

He did and we moved on. Man that has been 5 years ago. When do you let it go? Jeez

[Deuce Bigalow]

Those saying he was young. Well, he was even worse in the '11 finals when he was in his prime.

[Deuce Bigalow]

he was a second option on a team the won a championship. not leading.
He led the lakers in PPG and APG through through the first 3 rounds of Western Conference Playoffs in 2001 and 2002

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG%

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

A game or or two into the '01 Finals:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

[pegasus]

Those saying he was young. Well, he was even worse in the '11 finals when he was in his prime.

Yes, BUT he had Wade AND Bosh on his team. They turned him into a role player, and not a good one. That's not his fault! Ugh, I hate those two ball hogs!

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because he's not really the same player as he is now until 09.

Exactly, that's a big reason why his '07 finals was more "excusable" than his '11 finals. He was a much better last season than he was in '07 because of how superior his shooting ability was.

His '07 performance definitely deserves criticism, but I viewed it as more of his game being exposed rather than him choking like '10 or '11.

Lebron shot just 34.6% from 16-23 feet in '07, just 31.9% on 3s and just 69.8% from the line.

And actually worse in the playoffs, he still shot just 33.7% from 16-23 ft, but only 28% on 3s, though a bit better at 75.5% from the line. But 41.6% overall from the field for the playoffs.

It was a major hole in his game, and '07 was arguably his worst season outside of his rookie season, though I'd probably take '07 Lebron over '05 Lebron, though even '05 Lebron shot better. But other than that, Lebron was significantly worse in '07 than any other season.

Plus, the '07 Spurs were a more talented team than the '11 Mavs with Duncan as a top 2 player in the league as well as Manu and Parker who were in their primes and had already made all-star teams, and they had some solid supporting pieces such as Bowen, who remained an elite on the ball defender, Michael Finley(who was still a solid role player and shooting/scoring threat as the 4th option).

They were also a much better defensive team than Dallas, especially with Bowen as the primary defender on Lebron and Duncan anchoring the defense in the paint.

And I have no problem giving Lebron credit, but honestly, leading the Cavs to the finals in '07 is the most overrated accomplishment of his career, he's done quite a few things that were far more impressive.

Look at the teams he faced.

A 41-41 Wizard team that did not have Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler. The Wizards were also the 3rd worst defensive team, and they had a team of Antawn Jamison, Antonio Daniels, Jarvis Hayes, Deshawn Stevenson, Darius Songaila, Etan Thomas and Calvin Booth.

Would a team that played an entire season with that cast even have a shot at 20 wins? You know a team is screwed when they're playing Antonio Daniels 44 mpg in a playoff series.

Next up was another 41-41 team, and they at least had more talent than Washington with Vince Carter, an older, but still very good Jason kidd and Richard Jefferson. However, they had absolutely no frontcourt. Their big men were Mikki Moore, Jason Collins and Josh Boone.

And that series was still competitive, and many of the differences weren't necessarily because of Lebron. Late in game 1, Sasha Pavlovic chased down Kidd to block his lay up, Vince Carter had a chance to win game 4, but turned the ball over, and he was guarded by Eric Snow, not Lebron and Donyell Marshall came off the bench and hit six threes in game 6.

Plus, the win was made easier because of the fact that Vince Carter shot 35% in the series, and of course, you can't credit Lebron for that since he didn't guard Carter.

Detroit was still a legitimately good team, and Lebron's game 5 was incredible(though it seemed like kind of a fluke to me given how he usually shot the ball). But they kind of self-destructed as well, and Lebron got the big shooting games from Gibson. Though even Detroit weren't what they once were with Big Ben gone and Sheed getting older, they dropped to just the 7th best defensive team.

Lets not act like Lebron just carried that team by himself, Cleveland was a top 4 defensive team and they were a phenomenal rebounding team who outrebounded teams by 3.7 rpg.

How can people continue to ignore what a big impact defense and rebounding makes? :facepalm I'm not saying they were an incredible team, but that's always ignored.

They were kind of similar to the '01 Sixers, except Philly was a better team, imo with Larry Brown being an all-time great coach, '01 Iverson being better than '07 Lebron, imo and they were a better defensive team with Mutombo(who was DPOY) and better individual defenders like Snow and sixth man of the year Aaron mcKie. But both teams won in a similar way.

As great as Lebron's game 5 was, it causes people to overrate his entire '07 run because outside of that game, his performances were up and down, particularly his shooting.


He led the lakers in PPG and APG through through the first 3 rounds of Western Conference Playoffs in 2001 and 2002

Not to discredit Kobe's '01 and '02 runs, because I do believe he was the second best player in each postseason. But regardless of numbers, he was still the second option on that team.

Bird and McHale had the same scoring difference in the '86 playoffs as Shaq and Kobe did in '01, and Duncan and Parker's difference was around the same in '07.

[rodman91]

People don't hate Lebron for his short comings. They hate his childish/spoiled/moronical behaviours on cameras. Also they hate him because media riding his dick since he was in highschool.

Lebron was too young to carry weak team to finals. So it was successful season even though they got swept and Lebron had terrible performance on finals.

[SpecialQue]

I'm not reading all this garbage, but briefly searching to see if the names "Durant," "Rose," "Kobe," and "Jordan" showed up told me all I need to know about what's going on here.

Keep wavin' those dlcks around, I guess.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not to discredit Kobe's '01 and '02 runs, because I do believe he was the second best player in each postseason. But regardless of numbers, he was still the second option on that team.

Bird and McHale had the same scoring difference in the '86 playoffs as Shaq and Kobe did in '01, and Duncan and Parker's difference was around the same in '07.
Well yeah he was the 2nd best player.

Scoring difference isn't the only thing, it's the 30+ ppg through 3 series. McHale and Parker ever do that? Also Kobe gave 7 rpg, 6 apg, along with 2 spg.

[Bandito]

What's Debrick Rose stats in the 2011 Conference Finals? LeBron and the Cavaliers were outplayed by a much superior San Antonio Spurs team.
Well to be fair Heat=Spurs against the Bulls=Cavaliers of that year:lol
Also I think this topic stupid, Lebron and the Cavs played their hearts out that year the Spurs were just that good.:facepalm

[Whoah10115]

Put Jordan in Lebron's shoes and he wins a ring that year, absolutely no doubt in my mind


Hell replace Lebron with Durant in the finals and Cleveland wins a ring. There's simply no excuse for shooting 35% from the field and 69% from free throw line



Choke, C - H - O - K - E. Stop giving me the bullsht about not having enough support. Cavaliers were 2-0 against the Spurs in the regular season because Lebron was his usual self





This post might actually deserve urine.

[Celtics4ever]

That Cavaliers team is underrated. They were a REALLY GOOD defensive team with an average offense. You also have to take into account how weak the east was back then. The playoffs were a joke to watch, the Cavs faced scrub teams on the Road to the finals, the best team being the old/beaten up Pistons. Most of the games the Cavs won were due to their defense.

With that said, LeBron's performance that year in the playoffs overall was pretty bad except a couple games, he was shooting around 40% most games, from what I remember. The team was winning because of their defense.

[ninephive]

You can put any perimeter player in the history of the NBA on that Cavs team and the Spurs will sweep that series. Those Spurs were historically good, statistically the 2nd best team in NBA history, get real dude. LeBron gave it his all.
What statistics are you referring to?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well yeah he was the 2nd best player.

Scoring difference isn't the only thing, it's the 30+ ppg through 3 series. McHale and Parker ever do that? Also Kobe gave 7 rpg, 6 apg, along with 2 spg.

I wasn't saying either were as good as '01 Kobe, especially Parker. I've said that '01 Kobe is the best second option ever, followed by '02 Kobe who was as capable of a player.

I was talking about this though.

Bird- 25.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 8.2 apg, 2.1 spg, 51.7 FG%, 61.5 TS%
McHale- 24.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.4 bpg, 57.9 FG%, 63.6 TS%

Same difference between Shaq and Kobe in '01.

Shaq- 30.4 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.5 FG%, 56.4 TS%
Kobe- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 46.9 FG%, 55.5 TS%

And Bird played 3 more mpg than McHale, while Kobe played 1 more mpg than Shaq, and McHale was more efficient than Bird, while Shaq was more efficient than Kobe(though TS% wasn't far apart).

So, I'm just saying that Shaq and Kobe being close in scoring numbers doesn't mean one wasn't the first option. The first option in the offense was to go inside to Shaq, especially in the half court. Kobe deserves a lot of respect though for being their facilitator and really de facto point guard, while still scoring so much within the flow of the offense.

Both also obviously had the ability to score even more, but that team also had 2 other hall of famers(Parish and DJ), 3 including Walton, but I separate him because despite being 6th man of the year, he wasn't at hall of fame level. But in addition to them, Danny Ainge who made the all-star team 2 seasons later. McHale led all scorers in '86 during the finals, and both Bird and McHale were at 28.3 ppg vs Chicago.

With a lesser cast and less scoring options, it wouldn't really surprise me if Bird and McHale both scored more than they did. During the '87 season, Bird was up to 28 ppg and McHale up to 26 on 60% shooting, both were all-nba first team and top 4 in MVP voting.

By the way, I think the gap between Shaq and Kobe in '01 was smaller than Bird and McHale in '86. Both Shaq and Bird were the best in the league in those seasons, while Kobe was top 3. I'm tempted to say top 2, the regular season and Duncan's impact is the only thing that makes me hesitant.

Not sure where McHale would rank in '86. After Bird, there was Magic who was close to his prime, Hakeem who dominated the playoffs, Nique, Kareem and Isiah I guess.

I'd have to take Magic and Hakeem over McHale. I'd go with McHale over Kareem by that point since he was every bit as lethal of a scorer, if not more, and a better defender and rebounder by that point. Nique is debatable, though he was more efficient than Nique and a much better defender who did an excellent job guarding Nique in the second round that year. I'm unsure about Isiah because I'd have to watch more of him from that season.

So McHale would probably be somewhere from top 4-6 in 1986.

The gap as players between Duncan and Parker was obviously the largest of the 3 duos mentioned by far.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Did someone really just say that if you replaced Lebron with Durant on that team, they beat the Spurs? Thats fine if you want to criticize Lebron, but thats just false. There wasn't any player at the time that you could have replace Bron with and they beat that Spurs team.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Did someone really just say that if you replaced Lebron with Durant on that team, they beat the Spurs? Thats fine if you want to criticize Lebron, but thats just false. There wasn't any player at the time that you could have replace Bron with and they beat that Spurs team.
Kobe or Wade

[DMAVS41]

Kobe or Wade

No. Maybe they win a game or something, but there is no evidence at all to suggest Kobe or Wade, at any point in their careers, could lead a team like the 07 Cavs to the title.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No. Maybe they win a game or something, but there is no evidence at all to suggest Kobe or Wade, at any point in their careers, could lead a team like the 07 Cavs to the title.
In that weak east in '07? Hell yes they could.

[RaininTwos]

yep, I'm so tired of people using that excuse of "not enough help"


Cleveland went 2-0 against San Antonio in regular season because Lebron scored 27 ppg on 49% FG


They get swept 0 - 4 against San Antonio in finals with Lebron scoring 22 on 35% and there is not a wave of people outraged by his awful finals performance?

Are you seriously using REGULAR season results in order to determine who should win a playoff series?

:roll: :roll:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe or Wade

Maybe win a game. No way in hell do they beat the Spurs though. But you're troll, so there is no point debating about it.

[DMAVS41]

In that weak east in '07? Hell yes they could.

Lead them to the finals? Perhaps...but hardly a lock. Detroit was better than people give them credit for so they can more easily rationalize what Lebron did.

But getting to the finals is a far cry from winning it. The idea that Kobe and Wade would have beaten the Spurs in 07 with what Lebron had is absurd. Just wouldn't have happened.

The Spurs were actually really good and would have had no problem severely hampering a one star perimeter based team like the 07 Cavs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Maybe win a game. No way in hell do they beat the Spurs though. But you're troll, so there is no point debating about it.
I'm a troll? :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lead them to the finals? Perhaps...but hardly a lock. Detroit was better than people give them credit for so they can more easily rationalize what Lebron did.

But getting to the finals is a far cry from winning it. The idea that Kobe and Wade would have beaten the Spurs in 07 with what Lebron had is absurd. Just wouldn't have happened.

The Spurs were actually really good and would have had no problem severely hampering a one star perimeter based team like the 07 Cavs.
They wouldn't get swept

[DMAVS41]

They wouldn't get swept

Yes. I agree. I think depending on how hot they get...they win 1 or 2 games. But they don't win the series.

And how is it fair to compare prime/peak Wade and Kobe to a 4th year Lebron out of high school that was clearly nowhere close to the player he'd become.

How about you put Kobe in his 4th year on those Cavs. They don't even make the ECF....LOL

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yes. I agree. I think depending on how hot they get...they win 1 or 2 games. But they don't win the series.

And how is it fair to compare prime/peak Wade and Kobe to a 4th year Lebron out of high school that was clearly nowhere close to the player he'd become.

How about you put Kobe in his 4th year on those Cavs. They don't even make the ECF....LOL
'06 Wade had a playoff run that Lebron will never have in his career, 3rd year.

[DMAVS41]

'06 Wade had a playoff run that Lebron will never have in his career, 3rd year.

And part of the reason he had that was because of having Shaq and a quality supporting cast...coached by one of the greatest coaches ever.

Look. I'm not disputing that 06 Wade and Kobe are far superior players to 07 Lebron.

I just don't think you understand how hard it is to win a title as the sole star player...as a perimeter player at that...with that kind of supporting cast...having to beat the Pistons and Spurs. It just wouldn't have happened.

We have enough evidence. Kobe in 06 and 07 couldn't get out of the first round. Wade in 09 when he was at his best in my opinion...couldn't get out of the first round.

Like I said before. There is no evidence at all to suggest either of those guys could win the title that year on the Cavs. Win a couple more games in the finals if they get there? Sure, but win the series? No way in hell.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And part of the reason he had that was because of having Shaq and a quality supporting cast...coached by one of the greatest coaches ever.

Look. I'm not disputing that 06 Wade and Kobe are far superior players to 07 Lebron.

I just don't think you understand how hard it is to win a title as the sole star player...as a perimeter player at that...with that kind of supporting cast...having to beat the Pistons and Spurs. It just wouldn't have happened.

We have enough evidence. Kobe in 06 and 07 couldn't get out of the first round. Wade in 09 when he was at his best in my opinion...couldn't get out of the first round.

Like I said before. There is no evidence at all to suggest either of those guys could win the title that year on the Cavs. Win a couple more games in the finals if they get there? Sure, but win the series? No way in hell.
Kobe in '06 and '07 faced a 50+ win team in the first round. In the East, Lebron didn't face a 50 win team until the Conference Finals. Remember that 50 wins in the west > 50 wins in the east. And Kobe had a much more worse of a team.

In '06 Playoffs Shaq averaged only 18.6 ppg, Wade 28.4. Wade had only 2 double digit scores on his team, Lebron 3.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe in '06 and '07 faced a 50+ win team in the first round. In the East, Lebron didn't face a 50 win team until the Conference Finals. Remember that 50 wins in the west > 50 wins in the east. And Kobe had a much more worse of a team.

In '06 Playoffs Shaq averaged only 18.6 ppg, Wade 28.4. Wade had only 2 double digit scores on his team, Lebron 3.

And your point? We are talking about winning it all.

I'm not disputing that Kobe/Wade would at least get to the ECF. But it is not a for sure thing that they even get to the finals....and winning the finals is just not going to happen based on their entire careers as players. You could maybe argue that Wade would be capable..but I'd disagree. Kobe definitely not. He doesn't historically perform well enough against quality defenses in the playoffs...and he would have had to go absolutely nuts to beat the Spurs. Just wouldn't have happened.

[chazzy]

The thing I don't get about 07 Lebron - people say he was the best in the league that year for leading the Cavs to the finals, but to excuse him for his finals play, people bring up stuff like

Because he was still too young
Because he didn't have reliable jumper yet
So which one is it? Best player in the league, or just really good but still unpolished?

[DMAVS41]

The thing I don't get about 07 Lebron - people say he was the best in the league that year for leading the Cavs to the finals, but to excuse him for his finals play, people bring up stuff like

So which one is it? Best player in the league, or just really good but still unpolished?

I think its obvious that Lebron was not the best player in the league in 07. He may have had a great year....or maybe the most impressive year for a star because some weird things happened, but he wasn't better than some other guys.

However, its not like beating the Spurs with what he had was going to be easy. The Spurs had a really good team and were perfectly built to stop a 1 star team. Yea, Lebron played poorly....but he wasn't any worse than any number of elite players have been when playing a tough team.

[jb220]

The best part is that no one brings up the 06 Heat when talking about LeBron.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes. I agree. I think depending on how hot they get...they win 1 or 2 games. But they don't win the series.

And how is it fair to compare prime/peak Wade and Kobe to a 4th year Lebron out of high school that was clearly nowhere close to the player he'd become.

I agree that Wade and Kobe aren't winning a title on that Cavs team, The Spurs were a legitimately great team, despite both being better than '07 Lebron.

The one advantage '07 Lebron had was that he was already a better passer/playmaker than Kobe or Wade ever were, imo. That's the most impressive thing about his '07 run to me.


Kobe in '06 and '07 faced a 50+ win team in the first round. In the East, Lebron didn't face a 50 win team until the Conference Finals. Remember that 50 wins in the west > 50 wins in the east. And Kobe had a much more worse of a team.

In '06 Playoffs Shaq averaged only 18.6 ppg, Wade 28.4. Wade had only 2 double digit scores on his team, Lebron 3.

Well, Wade's '06 cast was obviously superior to Lebron's '07 cast, and I'd take them over any of Lebron's Cavs teams.

Shaq was still a borderline top 10 player in the league and the best center in the league(excluding Duncan to avoid a pointless side debate that would surely start, especially since Duncan played alongside Mohammed/Rasho more often in the regular season, though he was clearly at center in the playoffs).

And Shaq's impact even in '06 still went well beyond stats since he was arguably the best post scorer, a presence in the paint, a very strong rebounder and one of the more difficult players to match up with 1 on 1. And this is illustrated by the fact that Miami was just 10-11 with Wade and without Shaq despite having Alonzo Mourning(12/9/4, 58 FG% as a starter) to fill in, and 42-17 when Shaq played.

Teams still usually didn't guard him 1 on 1, one of the few teams that was an exception was Detroit, and he murdered them in the conference finals putting up 22/12 on 66% shooting with 2.3 bpg. He was also very active defensively in the series. Shaq's presence also took away much of Big Ben's shot blocking and help defense as he averaged only 0.7 bpg in the series.

There were 2 series that run where Shaq's impact was comparable to Wade's. The 1st round vs Chicago when Wade was off compared to other rounds, and the ECF(though I'd still probably favor Wade due to his monster 4th quarters).

Then he had Mourning backing up Shaq, and he was one of the best centers and defensive players in the league himself. He also had Udonis Haslem, who was a solid role player who played defense, rebounded and was a solid mid-range jump shooter.

Jason Williams was less wild and a respectable point guard and good 3 point shooter, while Gary Payton was definitely solid as a back up and he hit some clutch shots.

Antoine Walker could score and he was a capable 3 point shooter, and while I often questioned his effectiveness when he was a star, I thought he was pretty effective as a complimentary player and more efficient than usual, though his efficiency dropped in the playoffs.

They also had James Posey who was an excellent defender and good 3 point shooter.

They were also a dominant rebounding team outrebounding opponents by 4.2 boards per game(more than Lebron's '07 Cavs) and a solid defensive team(top 9 during the regular season even with Shaq missing 23 games, Posey missing 15 and Zo missing 17 games).

And I'll also add what DMAVS mentioned about having Pat Riley coach them. I always think that great coaches like Phil, Riley, Pop and Larry Brown makes a difference.

I wouldn't say they stood out over other championship teams as far as casts, but they were definitely a good team.

Which obviously takes nothing away from Wade who put the team on his back during the finals and was playing really well anyway. I consider that his second best season after only 2009. And he was the second best player behind only Kobe.


The thing I don't get about 07 Lebron - people say he was the best in the league that year for leading the Cavs to the finals, but to excuse him for his finals play, people bring up stuff like

So which one is it? Best player in the league, or just really good but still unpolished?

Yeah, calling Lebron the best in '07 is a huge stretch, but I don't hear many call him the best. The vast majority at the time had Kobe as the best player in the league.

After Kobe, Duncan was also clearly better. Nash and Dirk were debatable as well, a lot will be hesitant to even mention Dirk after the Warriors series, but he had an incredible season before that, and was probably at his best as an overall player. Wade was also playing better before his injury, and I'd argue Yao was too, though he was injured just 27 games into the season and missed 34 games overall.

I'm fine with Lebron as high as top 3, and somewhere in the top 3-5 range for '07.

[rmt]

And part of the reason he had that was because of having Shaq and a quality supporting cast...coached by one of the greatest coaches ever.

Look. I'm not disputing that 06 Wade and Kobe are far superior players to 07 Lebron.

I just don't think you understand how hard it is to win a title as the sole star player...as a perimeter player at that...with that kind of supporting cast...having to beat the Pistons and Spurs. It just wouldn't have happened.

We have enough evidence. Kobe in 06 and 07 couldn't get out of the first round. Wade in 09 when he was at his best in my opinion...couldn't get out of the first round.

Like I said before. There is no evidence at all to suggest either of those guys could win the title that year on the Cavs. Win a couple more games in the finals if they get there? Sure, but win the series? No way in hell.

This.

There's a world of difference in Wade's surrounding cast - all hardened, playoff vets + the past prime-Shaq than the one surrounding Lebron (only Eric Snow had any Finals experience at all). Even with his supporting cast, Wade needed help from the refs and DAL to choke.

No way Kobe with that cast beats the 07 Spurs either. Kobe hasn't even had the kind of Finals performance that Wade had in 06 with a veteran cast - much less with that inexperienced one Lebron had. No one (perimeter) star with that cast was going to beat the Spurs with 3 stars and a great supporting cast (Bowen, Finley, Barry, Horry, Oberto).