Why Is Manu Ginobili So Underrated Presently & All Time?

[WillyJakk]

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NO6dza7Wfy0/TGJAVLadyjI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9Xmkcgui5_E/s1600/p1.manu.jpg
Manu Ginobili: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
http://www.jumpusa.com/dribble.jpg
Dwyane Wade: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
http://blog.imgacademies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jerrywestdriving.jpg
Jerry West: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/07/clyde-poster.jpg
Clyde Drexler: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html)

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

[The Ownage]

Coming off the bench, being a non-American athlete and playing for the Spurs who have always played fundamental over flashy.

He's one of the best SG's to ever play but those are the reasons why he's not as recognised as others.

[joshwake]

If I were to build a team from any players all time, he would very possibly be my second pick behind MJ at sg. That's not to say I necessarily think he is the second best of all time at sg cause I don't, but building a winning team. The guy knows his role, high bball iq, knows when and how to go to the line and how to work the refs and other players. He is certainly underrated on ISH, but probably not as much by basketball pundits.

[ralph_i_el]

He would be recognized by the average fan more but he's the perfect storm of "ways to go unnoticed":

-comes off the bench
-white/euro
-plays on the spurs

He's my 2b for SG's of the last decade

1. Kobe
2a. Wade
2b. Manu

[niko]

Because he's made of glass which limits his minutes and has made him miss lots of time while Wade has played 40mpg as a first option. Even if Ginobili played at a similar level, it's over less time.

[Alamo]

http://www.imagelive.org/wp-content/uploads/Manu-Ginobili-Basketball79.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Manu has always been my favorite player to watch in the NBA

[RaininTwos]

not this shit again:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Kblaze8855]

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time


No. There is not. And I like Manu. But that is just absurd...and it will never...ever...ever..be the opinion of anyone who is taken serious in basketball. Even if he were arguably top 3 by ability(He isnt) you cant go all legacy and even start to compare him to Jerry West. Not like Jerry doesnt have a gold medal too....

Jerry Wests accomplishments are otherworldly.


After putting up 29/17 in college his final year...
Won a gold medal winning by about 50 points a game.
Made 14 consecutive all star games
10 time all nba first team
made the first 5 all defensive teams 4 of them first team so hed likely be a 10-12 time all D team player if they had it his whole career
Had 7 playoff runs scoring 30 or more
Holds the NBA record for highest scoring playoff series(46 a game)
Won the first ever finals MVP in a series his team LOST. He put up 42/15/13 in game 7 of that series on a hurt leg he had pain killersl iterally shot into during timeouts.
Made the finals 9 times
Was on a 69 win team that won 33 in a row
Retired as the 3rd leading scorer ever
Led the NBA in scoring
Led the NBA in assists
29/6/6 career playoff averages
Was top 5 in field goal percentage a few times
Had at least one recorded quadruple double that doesnt count of course but the plays were still made. Like if one day the Dunk becomes an official stat Shaq would likely have a lot more triple doubles. The dunks dont just not exist because they didnt count. He has at least one game you can watch and count up the stats yourself...and get a quadruple double.
He averaged about 3 steals a game past his prime when they started counting them.
Coached 3 Laker teams to the playoffs and one to the WCF after they sucked for a couple years after he retired.
Was the GM for 7 Laker titles giving him 8 rings total and about 19 finals as a player or GM.
Executive of the Year
And of course:

http://www.yardbarker.com/media/0/7/0713f37d731582f71ff8c42bc864243ef6fc2e75/xl/capt.sge.lzj44.211007201158.photo00.photo.default-262x390.jpg



There have been several teams Manu would be the 3rd best swingman on. The idea that hes arguably the 3rd best 2 guard ever is gonna do nothing but get him hated on.

[madmax17]

Third best SG I've ever seen, behind MJ and Kobe. Amazing going towards the rim, great 3 point shooter, plays defense, very creative, extremely competitive, has the 'it' factor, clutch, great intangibles.

Of course Wade is one of the best as well.

[Jotaro Durant]

mj
bryant
west
wade
iverson
drexler
gervin
miller
ray
ginobili

10 best sg ever. maravich dont make it

[jb220]

Bench player

[Bigsmoke]

Manu is an All Star calibur player but he's no superstar/All Time Great/Or Whatever you overrated him as

[Bigsmoke]

mj
bryant
west
wade
iverson
drexler
gervin
miller
ray
ginobili

10 best sg ever. maravich dont make it

I heard Tracy McGrady was a SG.

[Jotaro Durant]

I heard Tracy McGrady was a SG.
i always seen tmac as sf and vc as sg

[Killbot]

You must have not read ISH all that much. In here, people overrate him like mad.

[WillyJakk]

I certainly respect everyone's opinion cause that's what we're all doing, promoting an opinion but I gotta ask:

What the heck has these other guys done that Manu has not done?

Drexler? Ok...he competed in dunk contests...

West? 1 ring, watered down era, and the pain killers story was totally irrelevant.

Iverson? Love the dude but all he has is scoring and maybe (noticably)...heart?

Gervin? 1 ring but Iceman could "fanger-roll..."

Miller? More famous for Knicks "choking game" and hitting 3's.

Allen? 1 ring, great shooter.

Wade? 1 ring. Manu level flopping ability though!

I like all players listed but am hard pressed to see what they truly do better than Manu has done or can do :confusedshrug: .

[Bigsmoke]

I certainly respect everyone's opinion cause that's what we're all doing, promoting an opinion but I gotta ask:

What the heck has these other guys done that Manu has not done?

Drexler? Ok...he competed in dunk contests...

West? 1 ring, watered down era, and the pain killers story was totally irrelevant.

Iverson? Love the dude but all he has is scoring and maybe (noticably)...heart?

Gervin? 1 ring but Iceman could "fanger-roll..."

Miller? More famous for Knicks "choking game" and hitting 3's.

Allen? 1 ring, great shooter.

Wade? 1 ring. Manu level flopping ability though!

I like all players listed but am hard pressed to see what they truly do better than Manu has done or can do :confusedshrug: .

Manu? lucky as **** to be playing for Duncan

[Horatio33]

I'm sure Tim Duncan had more to do with the Spurs success than Manu.

[jb220]

Manu? lucky as **** to be playing for Duncan
Duncan wouldn't be a 4x champion if he didn't have stacked teams, and Manu carried his fundamental ass to two rings. Get real

[Killbot]

I'm sure Tim Duncan had more to do with the Spurs success than Manu.

This. Manu helped, yes, but Duncan did the majority of the work.

[WillyJakk]

I'm sure Tim Duncan had more to do with the Spurs success than Manu.

Ergo:

the Kobe& Shaq argument
the Wade & Shaq & refs debate
the West & Wilt argument
the Drexler & Hakeem...well that's not really an argument

so....

[Bigsmoke]

Duncan wouldn't be a 4x champion if he didn't have stacked teams, and Manu carried his fundamental ass to two rings. Get real

Duncan won a ring in 1999... before anybody in the U.S.A. ever heard of Manu and won in 2003 with dude coming off the bench not even scoring over 10ppg.

switch Tmac with Manu and Duncan would be a 5x champion.

[jb220]

Duncan won a ring in 1999... before anybody in the U.S.A. ever heard of Manu and won in 2003 with dude coming off the bench not even scoring over 10ppg.

switch Tmac with Manu and Duncan would be a 5x champion.
I said he wouldn't be a 4 time champ, I agree that Manu obviously had nothing to do with the Spurs lucking out in '99.

T-Mac is an overrated scrub, shit handles, an absolute LOSER. Switch him and Manu and you throw the entire Spurs "dynasty" away.

[Bigsmoke]

I said he wouldn't be a 4 time champ, I agree that Manu obviously had nothing to do with the Spurs lucking out in '99.

T-Mac is an overrated scrub, shit handles, an absolute LOSER. Switch him and Manu and you throw the entire Spurs "dynasty" away.

Hakeem wouldnt have have 2 rings if it wasnt for that crazy Drexter trade in 95. :confusedshrug:

Manu was a replaceable puzzle piece in the Spurs 2003 and 2007 title run and thats a fact!

[Mr. Jabbar]

Are you serious? he is the most overrated player ever....

[thelucifer69]

Are you serious? he is the most overrated player ever....

No! Kobe is the most overated human ever. Somebody compare him with GOD

[westsideozzie]

Manu destroued the Pistons. He's the perfect combo guard. He's a 1.5. Name a better playmaking guard who can run point or score when he has to. He's got no holes in his game.

[joshwake]

let me put it this way: Kobe is the better SG all time over Manu, but If you were to build a team you cannot have anyone be the first scoring option over Kobe, you can with Manu. I would take Manu over Kobe anyday when building a team. The only other SGs I would take over Manu would be MJ and possibly Drexler.

[RaininTwos]

let me put it this way: Kobe is the better SG all time over Manu, but If you were to build a team you cannot have anyone be the first scoring option over Kobe, you can with Manu. I would take Manu over Kobe anyday when building a team. The only other SGs I would take over Manu would be MJ and possibly Drexler.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

cmon son

[bizil]

For whatever reason, Manu never jumped into that superstar realm of player. In all around terms, he was a true total package who could play PG, SG,and SF. His scoring skillset was damn complete too as well. And he was known as clutch and had the alpha dog gene to a degree. But I do think him coming off the bench so much affected his legacy in GOAT terms. His NBA individual numbers or accolades don't jump off the page either. And he happened to come in the L when SG's were in a great golden era. U had Kobe, AI, T Mac, Ray, Vince, Wade, and even Pierce who played a ton of SG back in the early 2000s. As great as Manu is, I never considered him as good these guys peak value wise. Even though in the all around sense, he could hold his own in a big way. In other eras, Manu at SG would have been rated higher. But once that golden age began to wind down due to injuries and such, Manu was usually regarded in the top five SG's in the L.

I do think Manu has a great shot at the HOF because of his resume. In the total package sense, he was one of the best SG's ever. But in GOAT terms, he's not sniffing the top 15 and probably even 20 SG's. But he was a top ten SG during the golden era of SG's.

[brandonislegend]

let me put it this way: Kobe is the better SG all time over Manu, but If you were to build a team you cannot have anyone be the first scoring option over Kobe, you can with Manu. I would take Manu over Kobe anyday when building a team. The only other SGs I would take over Manu would be MJ and possibly Drexler.

:facepalm

[Dizzle-2k7]

There have been several teams Manu would be the 3rd best swingman on.


:roll: :wtf: :facepalm :biggums: :oldlol:

keep sippin that haterade blaze! manu will be remembered as a top 5 SG all time and a champion's CHAMPION :coleman:

[SCdac]

I've always found it funny how somebody who's "just a bench player" has started about 400 games in his career.... that's more games than say OJ Mayo has played in altogether.... just last season Manu started 79 games.

Based on this thread and everything I've read since he's been the L, I'd say Manu is one of the more misunderstood players of the last decade, mostly because he's never been on an average team like Ray Allen or Eric Gordon where he can be the clear leader and have stats indicative of having little help. Despite all that, he's gotten MVP chants in his home arena (and MVP consideration from the media), multiple contract extensions, and will likely get his jersey retired and make the NBA HOF.

Denver offered him a 6-year contract in the summer of 2004, the following season he made the All-Star game, dropped a couple 40-point games in the RS, started 15 games in the playoffs (averaging 21 PPG) and nearly beat out Tim freaking Duncan for Finals MVP. Give the guy his own team, he may not have had equivalent success... but casual fans would probably understand and appreciate him more.

here's a clip of Manu scoring 46 points on Lebron's Cavaliers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTH7ulledQ

a couple games later he scored 44 points including the game winning shot against the Timberwolves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RRrdTOBvYk

That's just a couple of his best games... definitely one of the greatest SG's of all time... regardless of where he ranks.

[bdreason]

Because he's injury prone, and as soon as you think he's back, he goes down again with another injury.


He won't make it through the playoffs without an injury, unfortunately.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Manu is still playing? I thought he retired last year.
I didn't hear his name when they played the Lakers the other day.:D

[StateOfMind12]

Manu should have been the 2005 Finals MVP over Duncan. Was Manu the best player on that 200 Spurs team? Absolutely not, but he was the best player in the Finals. I just find it funny how people always talk about how Duncan is underrated and never gets talked about, yet the media actually always sucks his dick. They just don't talk about him or in other words hype him up because he is boring.

Manu is a top 10 SG of all-time, and yes I would put him above Tmac.

[Balla_Status]

Never truly led a team to a championship. That's why.

[Doctor Rivers]

NBA historians sleep on Manu Ginobili.

[Doctor Rivers]

lets go back in time to 2007, break tim duncan's legs and see where a manu-led spurs team finishes.



prob still sweep lebron in the finals

:roll:

[Miserio]

Manu should have been the 2005 Finals MVP over Duncan. Was Manu the best player on that 200 Spurs team? Absolutely not, but he was the best player in the Finals. I just find it funny how people always talk about how Duncan is underrated and never gets talked about, yet the media actually always sucks his dick. They just don't talk about him or in other words hype him up because he is boring.

Manu is a top 10 SG of all-time, and yes I would put him above Tmac.
I'm Argentinian and as you should know, Manu Ginobili is the second Maradona, he's a god around here. Having said that, I will tell you that I love him since i'm a kid BUT he's not the 2005 finals MVP.

In fact, without Tim Duncan there's not a chance the spurs win the series, 0%. The attention Duncan draw on EVERY PLAY, it was insane, all the shots that were goin in were because of Duncan getting double o triple teams around him. You should watch the series keeping that in mind to realize that Tim Duncan played incredible and deserved that Finals MVP.

[StateOfMind12]

Never truly led a team to a championship. That's why.
Only 3-4 have done it, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Michael Jordan, and Jerry West (1a, 1b?).

It shouldn't be a knock on Manu that he never did it especially when he was teammates with Duncan his entire career. Manu is like James Worthy. He took a lesser role for the sake of championships.



In fact, without Tim Duncan there's not a chance the spurs win the series, 0%. The attention Duncan draw on EVERY PLAY, it was insane, all the shots that were goin in were because of Duncan getting double o triple teams around him. You should watch the series keeping that in mind to realize that Tim Duncan played incredible and deserved that Finals MVP.
Same goes for Manu. The Spurs without Manu lose the Finals as well. Duncan shot like 40% in that series and he shot like 10-27 in that Game 7 and Duncan himself admitted that he almost single handily lost the game. That is all that needs to be said.

[Kblaze8855]

keep sippin that haterade blaze!

You pretending its funny to compare Manu to....

the 90s Bulls, last years heat, 70s lakers(West/Goodrich both all nba first team), Run TMC, 08 Celtics, Badboy pistons(Dumars/Rodman/Dantley/Aguirre in whatever combo you want to put them back when Rodman was a 3), Dr.J and Andrew Toney or Bobby Jones, Hondo/Sam Jones(lets not talk like accomplishments are the issue here and disregard them)?

We are talking about tandem after tandem of straight up HOF superstar or Manu like do it all semi-star role player situations. Whatever you want to think about Manu...dont act like hes being insulted by being compared to people he will never be considered the equal of.

Drop Manu on the late 80s Pistons its perfectly legit to say he would be the 5th best player on the team who plays 1-3 and thats with me totally disregarding Vinnie Johnson coming off the bench for 15 or so a game and hitting finals game winners....

[chips93]

and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

because he wasnt good enough to warrant many more shots, and he wasnt good enough to warrant being the first option.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Manu should have been the 2005 Finals MVP over Duncan. Was Manu the best player on that 200 Spurs team? Absolutely not, but he was the best player in the Finals. I just find it funny how people always talk about how Duncan is underrated and never gets talked about, yet the media actually always sucks his dick. They just don't talk about him or in other words hype him up because he is boring.

Manu is a top 10 SG of all-time, and yes I would put him above Tmac.
Just to name a few, in no particular order:
MJ
Kobe
West
Maravich
Reggie Miller
DWade
Sidney Moncrief
Clyde Drexler
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
George Gervin
Mitch Richmond
David Thompson
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson (if you consider him a SG)
Sam Jones
Dave Bing
Bill Sharman

Manu does not crack the top 10.

[Kblaze8855]

On that list...of players ive seen a lot of...id take Manu over one. He is flat better than Reggie was to me. But he wouldnt make those Pacer teams better inany major way.

[Alamo]

People can say what they want, but Manu will go down as one of the best SGs to ever play the game. And he's a lock for the HOF.

[jb220]

People can say what they want, but Manu will go down as one of the best SGs to ever play the game. And he's a lock for the HOF.
Cause of his international play, based solely off his NBA career he wouldn't sniff the hof.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

People can say what they want, but Manu will go down as one of the best SGs to ever play the game. And he's a lock for the HOF.
Is this correct:
9 years
15 ppg
4 apg
2-time all star

If so, I don't think he is a lock. He has a shot, though.

[Kblaze8855]

You can say that about like 2 dozen people. Which is exactly why these kinds of topics annoy people. Next to nobody just hates Manu. Hes an exciting, respected, easily liked player who has had a lot of success. But people dont need to come out act like hes better than Jerry West or a dozen others who were superstars and winners and flat out had a greater impact on the league.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

On that list...of players ive seen a lot of...id take Manu over one. He is flat better than Reggie was to me. But he wouldnt make those Pacer teams better inany major way.
I would take Reggie over Manu any day of the week.
Also, just for fun, imagine prime Reggie from the outside with prime TD inside.
That would be sick.

[SCdac]

On that list...of players ive seen a lot of...id take Manu over one. He is flat better than Reggie was to me. But he wouldnt make those Pacer teams better inany major way.

That's the most ironic part to me. If you made a thread saying who's better Manu or Reggie, people on this board would consider that almost sacrilegious and laugh you out of the thread... Meaning, it's not just that people perhaps overrate Miller (that's not the point), but more so people dont really have a clear perception of Manu (who came into the league at 25 years of age, ie. late). The fact that people think he's just a bench player speaks volumes about the misconception IMO.

Here's a little segment on Manu as a rookie...

Stephen Jackson: "He's got the same mentality as I have - we are never scared"

Malik Rose: "He has alot of moves and instincts you can't teach"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mBwUrD_A8

http://www.slamdunkcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Manu-Ginobili-blocks-Kevin-Durants-dunk..jpg

Sick player, and he gives it his all every night. How do you quantify relentless effort, you know?

[SFMF]

I just wanna share one thing with all of you, isn't Manu's career somewhat similar to Kevin McHale's? But I don't think they are perceived at the same level.

[Big#50]

Because he balled up Team USA in the Olympics. He beat the great USA team that everyone thought would never lose in the olympics again. He balled those ****** up.

[BlackVVaves]

No. There is not. And I like Manu. But that is just absurd...and it will never...ever...ever..be the opinion of anyone who is taken serious in basketball. Even if he were arguably top 3 by ability(He isnt) you cant go all legacy and even start to compare him to Jerry West. Not like Jerry doesnt have a gold medal too....

Jerry Wests accomplishments are otherworldly.




There have been several teams Manu would be the 3rd best swingman on. The idea that hes arguably the 3rd best 2 guard ever is gonna do nothing but get him hated on.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[BlackVVaves]

let me put it this way: Kobe is the better SG all time over Manu, but If you were to build a team you cannot have anyone be the first scoring option over Kobe, you can with Manu. I would take Manu over Kobe anyday when building a team. The only other SGs I would take over Manu would be MJ and possibly Drexler.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Big#50]

You pretending its funny to compare Manu to....

the 90s Bulls, last years heat, 70s lakers(West/Goodrich both all nba first team), Run TMC, 08 Celtics, Badboy pistons(Dumars/Rodman/Dantley/Aguirre in whatever combo you want to put them back when Rodman was a 3), Dr.J and Andrew Toney or Bobby Jones, Hondo/Sam Jones(lets not talk like accomplishments are the issue here and disregard them)?

We are talking about tandem after tandem of straight up HOF superstar or Manu like do it all semi-star role player situations. Whatever you want to think about Manu...dont act like hes being insulted by being compared to people he will never be considered the equal of.

Drop Manu on the late 80s Pistons its perfectly legit to say he would be the 5th best player on the team who plays 1-3 and thats with me totally disregarding Vinnie Johnson coming off the bench for 15 or so a game and hitting finals game winners....
LOL Manu is better than anyone on those Pistols teams. Gtfo

[Big#50]

Just to name a few, in no particular order:
MJ
Kobe
West
Maravich
Reggie Miller
DWade
Sidney Moncrief
Clyde Drexler
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
George Gervin
Mitch Richmond
David Thompson
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson (if you consider him a SG)
Sam Jones
Dave Bing
Bill Sharman

Manu does not crack the top 10.
Manu is more complete than any player on that list not named MJ. Kobe is better as well. Manu is a ****ing bad man. Put Manu in the non defense playing 80's and he is Pistol Pete but way better. The man wrecked team USA infuse biggest world stage, that's just insane.

[Doctor Rivers]

Cause of his international play, based solely off his NBA career he wouldn't sniff the hof.

too bad for you the HOF is not just based on an NBA career

[BlackVVaves]

LOL Manu is better than anyone on those Pistols teams. Gtfo

Manu is better than Isaiah Thomas? :oldlol:

How ****ing old are you?

[chips93]

Manu is more complete than any player on that list not named MJ. Kobe is better as well. Manu is a ****ing bad man. Put Manu in the non defense playing 80's and he is Pistol Pete but way better. The man wrecked team USA infuse biggest world stage, that's just insane.

thats nice

too bad hes a worse player than all of them

[Kblaze8855]

LOL Manu is better than anyone on those Pistols teams. Gtfo

Fans like you are why good guys like Manu get hated on.

[Big#50]

Manu is better than Isaiah Thomas? :oldlol:

How ****ing old are you?
Old enough to have watched Magic win back to back championships. Old enough to have watched the great 86 Celtics. Old enough to know that while Thomas was great early in his career with killer speed, by 89 that Pistons team won by not having one stand out player, but working as a team with everyone doing their part. Have you seen Manu play?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Manu is more complete than any player on that list not named MJ. Kobe is better as well. Manu is a ****ing bad man. Put Manu in the non defense playing 80's and he is Pistol Pete but way better. The man wrecked team USA infuse biggest world stage, that's just insane.
you funny!

[Big#50]

Fans like you are why good guys like Manu get hated on.
Thomas didnt carry the Pistons by the late 80's. Let's not forget Thomas was turnover prone like a mother****er. His defense was also average. Manu would have been the best player on the late 80's Pistons.

[Mr. Jabbar]

ironically, this thread just proved how CRIMINALLY overrated manu is.


aint thread backfire a bitch?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Thomas didnt carry the Pistons by the late 80's. Let's not forget Thomas was turnover prone like a mother****er. His defense was also average. Manu would have been the best player on the late 80's Pistons.
:facepalm

[Big#50]

you funny!
Funny as it is. I know Kobe feels the same way about Manu. ****ing Dave Bing, Dave Bing LOL. Gervin. LOL all good scores and not much else. The 80's and their inflated numbers. LOL Gtfo

[Big#50]

:facepalm
Let me guess, you never watched basketballball before 2006. I don't know how saying Manu was better than a 18/9 Isaiah Thomas is so bad. Of course Thomas Is ranked higher all time. But by tue late 80's he didnt have to be the Thomas of pre 87 when he had monster numbers.

[SCdac]

there's always going to be homers who overrate their favorite player to the Nth degree... inb4 it gives everybody a reason to jump all over a great player, a SG with one of the highest winning percentages of this era.

this thread isn't about how he's overrated, it's about how he's underrated. no, he's not better than Isiah, that much should be obvious, but I would personally take him over Sprewell, Arenas, Richmond, Hamilton, Redd, Rice, Finley, J. Johnson, and many other SG's. when considering basketball is a two-way game and a game about effort and being clutch.

When you realize who he is better than, it gives you a better context... Not being a top-10 SG isn't a knock.

[BlackVVaves]

Old enough to have watched Magic win back to back championships. Old enough to have watched the great 86 Celtics. Old enough to know that while Thomas was great early in his career with killer speed, by 89 that Pistons team won by not having one stand out player, but working as a team with everyone doing their part. Have you seen Manu play?

Have you seen Manu play?

Isiah is a Top 50 player of all time. You've got to be joking :facepalm

[Big#50]

there's always going to be homers who overrate their favorite player to the Nth degree... inb4 it gives everybody a reason to jump all over a great player, a SG with one of the highest winning percentages of this era.

this thread isn't about how he's overrated, it's about how he's underrated. no, he's not better than Isiah, that much should be obvious, but I would personally take him over Sprewell, Arenas, Richmond, Hamilton, Redd, Rice, Finley, J. Johnson, and many other SG's. when considering basketball is a two-way game and a game about effort and being clutch.

When you realize who he is better than, it gives you a better context... Not being a top-10 SG isn't a knock.
Prime Manu is better than late 80's Thomas. 18/8 in the playoffs is not something that can't be outdone. Thomas is better all time, perhaps. But late 80's Thomas didn't have to do it all like he did his first five or six seasons. And I'm not overrating Manu, I still hate his ass for costing us that 06 series against the ponies.

[Kblaze8855]

Funny that a topic on a guy with role player numbers being better than Jerry West ends up with a guy talking shit about Isiah Thomas over his modest numbers. Manu produces like blue edwards on the Bucks but we are talking shit about Isiah thomas...

This topic is approaching free speech denial level idiocy.

[Whoah10115]

Hard to rate him because Pop's system hasn't just been pro-fundamental but because he plays it too safe.



I love this guy and he's probably, at his best, a better player than Ray Allen at his. And that says a lot. I'd take him over a lot of guys tho.

[Smoke117]

Did I just read correctly? There is a case to be made that he is the 3rd best sg of all time? :biggums: :facepalm :roll: :roll: :roll:

[BlackVVaves]

Prime Manu is better than late 80's Thomas. 18/8 in the playoffs is not something that can't be outdone. Thomas is better all time, perhaps. But late 80's Thomas didn't have to do it all like he did his first five or six seasons. And I'm not overrating Manu, I still hate his ass for costing us that 06 series against the ponies.

Why are you comparing a PRIME Manu to Isiah to the end of his career? What type of rationale is that?

Do people compare Dwight Howard to Phoenix Shaq?

Prime Isiah >>>>>> Prime Manu. Get a clue holmes.

[SCdac]

Hard to rate him because Pop's system hasn't just been pro-fundamental but because he plays it too safe.



I love this guy and he's probably, at his best, a better player than Ray Allen at his. And that says a lot. I'd take him over a lot of guys tho.

Ray and Manu did go H2H in the 2005 playoffs (semi WCF). Spurs won in 6, Ginobili averaged 22 PPG the next series in Phoenix, playing 36 minutes a game.

In 6 games (SAS vs. SEA) their averages were:

Manu: 20.5 PPG (.58 FG%), 5.2 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG, 31.0 MPG

Allen: 21.5 PPG (.44 FG%), 4.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 MPG

Ginobili had a 39 point game five, after which Duncan said "Manu was awesome. Tony and myself weren't playing great games, but he found a way to take us over that hump."

[Smoke117]

Ray and Manu did go H2H in the 2005 playoffs (semi WCF). Spurs won in 6, Ginobili averaged 22 PPG the next series in Phoenix, playing 36 minutes a game.

In 6 games (SAS vs. SEA) their averages were:

Manu: 20.5 PPG (.58 FG%), 5.2 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG, 31.0 MPG

Allen: 21.5 PPG (.44 FG%), 4.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 MPG

Ginobili had a 39 point game five, after which Duncan said "Manu was awesome. Tony and myself weren't playing great games, but he found a way to take us over that hump."

You have got to be f.ucking kidding me. I remember that series like it was yesterday. BRUCE BOWEN DEFENDED RAY ALLEN NOT GOD DAMN MANU GINOBILI so take that horse shit somewhere else. I don't remember there being a bruce bowen level defender on the sonics to defend Manu either...do you? Didn't think so...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Funny as it is. I know Kobe feels the same way about Manu. ****ing Dave Bing, Dave Bing LOL. Gervin. LOL all good scores and not much else. The 80's and their inflated numbers. LOL Gtfo
I just cannot take you seriously.
btw, both Bing and Gervin are hall of famers....and neither were really 80s players.
you are not seriously suggesting that Manu is greater than Gervin?

[Whoah10115]

Ray and Manu did go H2H in the 2005 playoffs (semi WCF). Spurs won in 6, Ginobili averaged 22 PPG the next series in Phoenix, playing 36 minutes a game.

In 6 games (SAS vs. SEA) their averages were:

Manu: 20.5 PPG (.58 FG%), 5.2 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG, 31.0 MPG

Allen: 21.5 PPG (.44 FG%), 4.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 MPG

Ginobili had a 39 point game five, after which Duncan said "Manu was awesome. Tony and myself weren't playing great games, but he found a way to take us over that hump."




That's tough because Duncan was still the best player and Ray was obviously Seattle's best player...and like was already said, Bowen guarded Ray Allen a lot. That's what he was for. Sometimes, it's difficult to gauge the value of h2h.



Manu had a better series than Duncan did against the Pistons that year. Period. BUT the Spurs still went into the Finals with Duncan as the guy and in his prime. Stuff like that has intangible value that's difficult to measure.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Let me guess, you never watched basketballball before 2006. I don't know how saying Manu was better than a 18/9 Isaiah Thomas is so bad. Of course Thomas Is ranked higher all time. But by tue late 80's he didnt have to be the Thomas of pre 87 when he had monster numbers.
Guess again. Been watching since before you were born.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I know ignorance and disrespect swarms this basketball forum, but for the love of all common sense and respect to the game of bball that is left, some mod, please, delete this outrageous thread.

It has gone beyond ridiculous.

[Big#50]

Why are you comparing a PRIME Manu to Isiah to the end of his career? What type of rationale is that?

Do people compare Dwight Howard to Phoenix Shaq?

Prime Isiah >>>>>> Prime Manu. Get a clue holmes.
Without insults, I never said Prime Manu>Prime Thomas. My whole argument was to the guy that said Manu would be the fifth best player on late 80' s Pistons. That was my whole argument. The late 80's Pistons. Also, the 80's had players that wouldn't even make a D-League team now. 80's basketball was nowhere as competitive as it is now.

[Big#50]

I know ignorance and disrespect swarms this basketball forum, but for the love of all common sense and respect to the game of bball that is left, some mod, please, delete this outrageous thread.

It has gone beyond ridiculous.
Go suck Kobe's Dick.

[SCdac]

You have got to be f.ucking kidding me. I remember that series like it was yesterday. BRUCE BOWEN DEFENDED RAY ALLEN NOT GOD DAMN MANU GINOBILI so take that horse shit somewhere else. I don't remember there being a bruce bowen level defender on the sonics to defend Manu either...do you? Didn't think so...

Yeah, Ray Allen definitely wasn't stopping Manu that year either, that's for sure. Manu also had a great series against Tayshaun Prince, Rip, and the Detroit bigs, so I wouldn't say it's conjecture to assume Manu puts up great numbers/performances even if Seattle did have a Bowen type defender.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Go suck Kobe's Dick.

Stop embarrasing yourself in this thread man

You have provided like 10 posts worthy of the "dumbest things you've heard/read on ISH" thread already :oldlol:

[SCdac]

and Manu is in a catch-22 kind of situation... he plays great, "well he always had Duncan by his side"... but that's also the reason he probably hasn't had higher averages. Replace Allen with Manu on that 2005 team and he's their best player too. We never got see what he would do in that position, however we've seen him play just as well (if not better) in the situation he was in, but won't get the proper credit. It's why I think he's one of the more misunderstood players.

[Smoke117]

Yeah, Ray Allen definitely wasn't stopping Manu that year either, that's for sure. Manu also had a great series against Tayshaun Prince, Rip, and the Detroit bigs, so I wouldn't say it's conjecture to assume Manu puts up great numbers/performances even if Seattle did have a Bowen type defender.


That's without even mentioning the fact that in that series they were letting Bowen get away with so much crap on Ray too because of his reputation. He was grabbing the shit out of Ray the entire series.

[R.I.P.]

So is Parker. He was only supposed to be good, because of Timmah. The Spurs are now Parker

[SCdac]

That's without even mentioning the fact that in that series they were letting Bowen get away with so much crap on Ray too because of his reputation. He was grabbing the shit out of Ray the entire series.

and Ginobili was practically getting his head taken off in that series too. Danny Fortson and Jerome James playing tough and fouling Manu hard whenever possible. just a physical series on both ends.

[Big#50]

I just cannot take you seriously.
btw, both Bing and Gervin are hall of famers....and neither were really 80s players.
you are not seriously suggesting that Manu is greater than Gervin?
Meant 80's and pre 80's. Yes, Manu is better than Gervin. better defender, way better. Better passer, way better. More clutch, and just as good a scorer. Gervin was taking 22 to 26 shots a game in his prime. I really don't like comparjnt players of now to theplayers of those eras. Just too different. All offensive numbers from before are heavily inflated.

[SCdac]

Meant 80's and pre 80's. Yes, Manu is better than Gervin. better defender, way better. Better passer, way better. More clutch, and just as good a scorer. Gervin was taking 22 to 26 shots a game in his prime. I really don't like comparjnt players of now to theplayers of those eras. Just too different. All offensive numbers from before are heavily inflated.

just stop man :facepalm

Gervin was one of the greatest scorers of all time. I can understand your argument if Gervin was jacking up 4 three's a game, but he was averaging 27-33 PPG on virtually no three's.

[Big#50]

Stop embarrasing yourself in this thread man

You have provided like 10 posts worthy of the "dumbest things you've heard/read on ISH" thread already :oldlol:
Go add them to that thread then. Manu is better than ****ing Dumars, Bing, Richmond, Miller, Sharman, Thompson, Gervin. LOL. Those guys were more one dimensional than a mother****er, only Dumars played D. It's really crazy to think a guy that schooled team USA in the Olympics is better than given credit for, right?

[Big#50]

just stop man :facepalm

Gervin was one of the greatest scorers of all time. I can understand your argument if Gervin was jacking up 4 three's a game, but he was averaging 27-33 PPG on virtually no three's.
70's and 80's pace was insane. Gervin has to be one of the most overrated players ever. What else did the guy do besides take 25 shots a game?

[Kblaze8855]

Carlos Arroyo and Sarunas Jasikavicdnjdcwhateverious "schooled" the same team USA. Means little.

The people who underrate Manu dont do so by nearly as much as idiots like these overrate him.

Really are some of the worst points ive ever seen made in here.

[joshwake]

ironically, this thread just proved how CRIMINALLY overrated manu is.


aint thread backfire a bitch?
or underrated... take your pick. Polarizing is the word you are looking for.

[SCdac]

or underrated... take your pick. Polarizing is the word you are looking for.

this

[joshwake]

how bout this: Swap Kobe and Manu and the Lakers go the the finals this year. Not because he is better than Kobe, but because his ego wont get in the way of letting others be the 1st scoring option.

[bizil]

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL MANU IS A TOP 10 GOAT SG! A GOAT is like your resume. It takes into account:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Numbers
Longevity being great
Impact on the L.

Solo accolades wise, Manu is coming up short. Team accolades he has in spades. His has had numbers that are very good per season wise, but not great. But I do realize he's was splitting the pie with a scoring PG in Parker, and a dominant all time great big in Timmy. So I always viewed him as a guy capable of putting up over 20 PPG a night, five boards, and five dimes talent wise. Which are clearly All Star type potential. His longveity being a great player doesn't measure up enough for Top 10 GOAT status. And his impact on the L doesn't stack up either.

But Manu has a great shot at the HOF because of his combined international and NBA career. At his best he was a top 5 SG in the L. And at his peak, he was clearly amongst the most complete SG's in the L. After Kobe and Wade, I feel Ginobli was arguably the third most complete SG in the L, especially when u factor in defense.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Go add them to that thread then. Manu is better than ****ing Dumars, Bing, Richmond, Miller, Sharman, Thompson, Gervin. LOL. Those guys were more one dimensional than a mother****er, only Dumars played D. It's really crazy to think a guy that schooled team USA in the Olympics is better than given credit for, right?
:oldlol:
Joe Dumars was a vastly superior defender.
He also averaged more points, more assists and shot a better percentage.
Oh, he was also 6 time all star.
Oh, he is also in the Hall.

[Doctor Rivers]

how bout this: Swap Kobe and Manu and the Lakers go the the finals this year. Not because he is better than Kobe, but because his ego wont get in the way of letting others be the 1st scoring option.

Lol

[WillyJakk]

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL MANU IS A TOP 10 GOAT SG! A GOAT is like your resume. It takes into account:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Numbers
Longevity being great
Impact on the L.

Solo accolades wise, Manu isn't coming up short. Team accolades he has in spades. His has had numbers that are very good per season wise, but not great. But I do realize he's was splitting the pie with a scoring PG in Parker, and a dominant all time great big in Timmy. So I always viewed as a guy capable of putting up over 20 PPG a night, five boards, and five dimes talent wise. Which are clearly All Star type potential. His longveity being a great player doesn't measure up enough for Top 10 GOAT status. And his impact on the L doesn't stack up either.

But Manu has a great shot at the HOF because of his combined international and NBA career. At his best he was a top 5 SG in the L. And at his peak, he was clearly amongst the most complete SG's in the L. After Kobe and Wade, I feel Ginobli was arguably the third most complete SG in the L, especially when u factor in defense.

I counter that w/ this simple argument right here:

How could he have had a HUGE impact on the League when he was up against Kobe, T-Mac, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, and Allen Iverson (and eventually D Wade) who were ALL IN THEIR PRIMES AS WELL?

Kinda hard to standout much above them when they were all on a path to great careers.

Thing is, Kobe kept winning, and Manu started winning while Wade then Ray Allen managed to sneak in a ring in between.

[Whoah10115]

Manu is arguably top 10, but he is definitely top 15 (and bizil you might be the best poster around).



I probably won't put him top 10 but he's also not done yet. Last year he was the Spurs best player. Truth is he was their best player in 07/08 as well. But last year he also acted as their first option, as Parker is this year.



One thing with Ginobili is that the Spurs are always going far in the playoffs and he's always great. Too bad didn't open the team up more.

[bizil]

I counter that w/ this simple argument right here:

How could he have had a HUGE impact on the League when he was up against Kobe, T-Mac, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, and Allen Iverson (and eventually D Wade) who were ALL IN THEIR PRIMES AS WELL?

Kinda hard to standout much above them when they were all on a path to great careers.

Thing is, Kobe kept winning, and Manu started winning while Wade then Ray Allen managed to sneak in a ring in between.

When I mean impact, I mean factors like being the face of the L. Or redefining your position with your style of play. For example, AI was a transcendant figure in basketball with the combo of great play, swagger, and style off the court. Which means ass in seats and major ticket sales. I would say Shaq and AI were the two most transcendant stars once MJ retired. And AI revolutionized the SG spot on the court due to dominating despite being a VERY undersized SG.

T Mac at 6'9 or some say 6'10 revolutionized the SG spot too. There was never a SG that big with T Mac's skillset. Vince Carter revolutionized the art form of dunking big time, both in game and in contests. Besides Shaq and AI, Vince was the hottest thing in bball around that time. Ray Allen revolutionized the SG spot too because there was never a pure shooter-scorer with Ray's athletic ability and vast array of skills.

Ironically, the best player outta the bunch in Kobe didn't revolutionized the SG spot as much as the others I named. He was so similar to MJ, that he was following the toughest act EVER in sports. He happened to be the same size and not quite as athletic. But u know what, for Kobe to be considered the best player outta the golden era of SG's and the 2nd greatest SG ever is MORE IMPORTANT than redefining a position.

Which brings us back to Manu. At his peak, he was clearly an elite SG. His skillset and versatility stand up to the guys I named. But the two things that hurt him is he wasn't as dominant and he didn't revolutionize his position. Even though Kobe didn't really revolutionize the SG spot due to being so similar to MJ, he was the most dominant perimeter player of his era. And dominance is the most important ingredient. I would go so far to say that if Manu came up in the Jordan era, he would have been arguably the third or fourth best SG of that era. That era was pretty good for SG's, but the gap between Jordan and others was substantial. The 2000s SG's was a deeper pool of talent. Kobe, AI, Mac, Allen, Wade, Pierce when he played SG, and Vince would have literally taken over the top ten SG's of that era other than Jordan, Drexler, and Mitch:

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
T Mac
Drexler
AI
Pierce
Vince
Ray
Mitch Richmond

These would be the top ten SG's of the Jordan era if u had the 2000s golden era mixed in. I would take a prime Mitch Richmond over Manu barely. Mitch was a beast with no gaping holes in his game. But if u take out Pierce cause he shifted to SF over time, then it would come down to Manu, Miller, and Dumars to get in the top ten. Frankly, Manu was the most versatile and complete of the bunch so I would probably lean to him.

[bizil]

Manu is arguably top 10, but he is definitely top 15 (and bizil you might be the best poster around).



I probably won't put him top 10 but he's also not done yet. Last year he was the Spurs best player. Truth is he was their best player in 07/08 as well. But last year he also acted as their first option, as Parker is this year.



One thing with Ginobili is that the Spurs are always going far in the playoffs and he's always great. Too bad didn't open the team up more.

Thanks for the props! U are cream of the crop when it comes to posts too. U always come with good shit!

And on a side note, Manu goes to show that when u play in a Big Three type setup, the numbers can be deceiving. Parker and Manu will go down as one of the greatest backcourts of all time. They have the talent and rings for it. And scoring wise, those two are damn near as scary as any backcourt ever. Duncan is the greatest PF of all time. So they qualify as one of the greatest Big Three's of all time. They split up the pie, and Manu would often be a sixth man. So a guy capable of EASILY getting 20+ points, 5+ dimes, and 5+ boards played within the flow. I feel if Manu played with a Kidd or Paul type, that his points would have gone up. Parker as great as he is, is more in the mold of Rose or Westbrook. Even though Parker seems like his floor generalship is getting better over time.

[WillyJakk]

@ bizil,

You want revolutionary?

You know what Manu freakin' Ginobili revolutionized?

The Eurostep. He brought that move to the L and initially had peeps messed up cause they couldn't figure out if it was illegal and if it was, what the hell and how the hell did he just do that?

And what made it so crafty was that he's a lefty so the already awkward steps he takes looked even more awkward and unstoppable due to him being a southpaw.

Eurostep is my answer and you know it's revolutionary when black players start doin' it, he'll even Drop Wade jacked it from him and Tyreke Evans does it EVERY SINGLE GAME....like multiple times, it gets annoying.

[KDthunderup]

He hasnt been producing at the levels he has been in the past this season

[bizil]

@ bizil,

You want revolutionary?

You know what Manu freakin' Ginobili revolutionized?

The Eurostep. He brought that move to the L and initially had peeps messed up cause they couldn't figure out if it was illegal and if it was, what the hell and how the hell did he just do that?

And what made it so crafty was that he's a lefty so the already awkward steps he takes looked even more awkward and unstoppable due to him being a southpaw.

Eurostep is my answer and you know it's revolutionary when black players start doin' it, he'll even Drop Wade jacked it from him and Tyreke Evans does it EVERY SINGLE GAME....like multiple times, it gets annoying.


I'm aware of that and Manu put that on the map. But Manu didn't take a position and totally revamp it. One move doesn't revamp or revolutionize a position flat out. It take bringing a unique size element or a unique COMBO of skills to that table. For example, name another 6'0 or smaller shooting guard who did what Iverson did BEFORE he came along. Or in T Mac's case, name another 6'9 SG with his combo of skills.

Just like in the 70's, Gervin, Thompson, and Maravich revolutionized the SG spot. As great as Manu is, he wasn't really as revolutionary as some of the SG's I named. U have guys who are great. Or guys who bring new facets to the table. But then u have guys who are revolutionary. That golden era of SG's featured a ton of guys who were either crazy dominant or revolutionized their position.

[Euroleague]

If anything, he's overrated. People go on and on about how he had the best FIBA career ever, which is complete bullshit.

But he's been getting that false claim for years now.

His Euroleague career = way overrated

His Italian League career = way overrated

His FIBA career = way overrated.

So, he is actually OVERRATED, not underrated. He's like Sabonis, some fake and untrue urban myths and legends have been formed about his international career. Formed by stupid NBA only fans and their delusions.

Manu is a great player, and one my personal all time faves, but he's without a doubt totally overrated. If anyone actually bothered to check his "accomplishments" against the real all time FIBA greats they would know this.

But no one ever does. Because just like Sabonis those myths from NBA only fans started. Probably the same types of morons started these myths as the ones that started the Wilt myths.

[Euroleague]

Cause of his international play, based solely off his NBA career he wouldn't sniff the hof.

His international career pales in comparison to the international players who are in the hall of fame, solely from their international career. So this is complete bullshit. People just say this nonsense because it sounds cool.

He will get in as a combination, including the NBA.

No way in hell would he make it based on his international accomplishments alone.

People that think that sure the hell have no clue about how extreme your international accomplishments have to be to make it just off that.

You have obviously never bothered to actually check what the criteria is. Manu's international career sure the hell does not meet the standard.

So if he makes it, then it will be in combination with his NBA career, not simply due to his international career - because his international career is not nearly good enough to meet the standard.

[EricForman]

Although I don't agree with the OP that Manu is like third greatest SG ever, he has been insanely underrated on ISH. Remember people laughing at Manu over Vince or Joe Johnson in threads?

It's normal on ISH, white players gets underrated and "hip brothas" like Sheed are immortalized.

Nash, too, is making all these ISH haters who bashed his MVPs for the past five years look like fools. What he's doing at 38--taking this crappy cast to .500 season--is insane. And they wanna make excuses for Kobe and Iverson for having "bad casts" during their primes. Nash just shrugs, makes them better, and competes.

[D-Wade316]

Manu is criminally underrated. But are you fukkin serious OP? 3rd best or top-5 all-time? :facepalm

Guys I'll take Manu any day of the week:
MJ
Wade
Kobe
West

Possibly:
Drexler and Gervin

He sure as hell is better than Miller, Maravich, and Dumars.

[Dro]

LOL Manu is better than anyone on those Pistols teams. Gtfo
Apparently you haven't heard of Isaiah Thomas...hell Dumars is a heck of a SG and is damn near on Manu's level....I tell you sometimes........ISH:facepalm

[chips93]

Nash, too, is making all these ISH haters who bashed his MVPs for the past five years look like fools. What he's doing at 38--taking this crappy cast to .500 season--is insane. And they wanna make excuses for Kobe and Iverson for having "bad casts" during their primes. Nash just shrugs, makes them better, and competes.

firstly, nash still playing well today changes nothing about the legitimacy of his MVPs

second, nash is one of the most beloved players on this site, i cant think of any posters who 'hate' on nash.

[Dro]

and Ginobili was practically getting his head taken off in that series too. Danny Fortson and Jerome James playing tough and fouling Manu hard whenever possible. just a physical series on both ends.
Since dude thinks James Edwards, Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Aquire etc, couldn't play in the 90's...he must think guys like Danny Fortson and Jerome James are beasts :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Dro]

@ bizil,

You want revolutionary?

You know what Manu freakin' Ginobili revolutionized?

The Eurostep. He brought that move to the L and initially had peeps messed up cause they couldn't figure out if it was illegal and if it was, what the hell and how the hell did he just do that?

And what made it so crafty was that he's a lefty so the already awkward steps he takes looked even more awkward and unstoppable due to him being a southpaw.

Eurostep is my answer and you know it's revolutionary when black players start doin' it, he'll even Drop Wade jacked it from him and Tyreke Evans does it EVERY SINGLE GAME....like multiple times, it gets annoying.
U ever heard of Sarunas marciulionis...the true originator of the Eurostep....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fumWbJomIS4

[Kblaze8855]

Yea the idea that Manu brought the eurostep to the league is laughable. There are videos online of Dr.J doing the eurostep in like 1974 and similar looking stepthroughs all throug h the 80s.....and im sure he didnt create it or first bring it to the pros either.

[rmt]

Same goes for Manu. The Spurs without Manu lose the Finals as well. Duncan shot like 40% in that series and he shot like 10-27 in that Game 7 and Duncan himself admitted that he almost single handily lost the game. That is all that needs to be said.

Duncan never said that and in Game 7,

He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

[Dro]

Yea the idea that Manu brought the eurostep to the league is laughable. There are videos online of Dr.J doing the eurostep in like 1974 and similar looking stepthroughs all throug h the 80s.....and im sure he didnt create it or first bring it to the pros either.
True..its the NBA hype machine....They love to give credit to new guys for doing stuff that old guys have been doing for years....I've seen George Gervin of all people Eurostep and fingeroll all over the place...Ive seen great ball handles do it regularly although it may end up in an assist instead of a layup...Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, I've seen highlights of Calvin Murphy and Nate Archibald getting their English on, lol...Its like guys on ISH act like b-ball didnt exist before 2000...

[WillyJakk]

Lol, KBlaze Dro etc trying really hard to discredit what Manu has revolutionized.

Was Iverson the 1st one to do a crossover? Nope, Tim Hardaway had done the UTEP 2 Step long before that while Iverson readily admits he got the move from a former Georgetown player BUT ONCE HE BROKE OFF MJ w/ the move, it became "Allen Iverson w/ the killer crossover" (which every kid across America started doing) but what else did Iverson "revolutionize"?

He was a small guard who could score (heard of World B Free? yeah I'm sure you older heads have).

George Gervin could do what? Fanger roll and score, he wasn't the 1st but he sure is hell is known as the innovator cause that was his sig but old ass footage evidenced Wilt doing this shot way before Iceman.

Sarunas was a baller, no doubt and was another smooth lefty but guess what? The NBA wasn't ready for him during the late 80's early 90's (nor Kukoc for that matter) as they were what? Labeled "soft Euro players" but in reality those guys could ball and got dissed purely because of their heritage and because they were non Americans, they weren't accepted the same way.

Manu is no exception to this as evidenced by this thread.

Laughable the lengths guys are going through to discredit this guy :coleman:

[Kblaze8855]

Pointing out(briefly) that players have done the eurostep for decades is not trying really hard. Acting like a guy who has never been a top tier player is better than Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, and 99% of HOF guards are supporting it with a legacy that pales in comparison to theirs is trying hard.

Manu has done little to bother to discredit. Nobody consideres him some kind of all time elite player except you and 5-6 other people. Hes a key player on some title teams and won a gold medal. He is hardly Jerry West, Kobe, or Wade. He is not, was not, and will never be considered that good and there is nothing you can do about it. Hes not some guy who led a gang of teams to titles or won a bunch of MVPs or got a lot of accolades that need explaining away. Hes a very good guard and has rarely been called anything else.

And who called Sarunas soft? All he did was go head first into the paint and draw fouls.

[Flamboyant]

I'll just say this:
To me Manu is the Bill Russell of premiter players. He has won, won, and won.

[Kblaze8855]

Except Bill Russell made a dynasty of a team that never even made the finals before him and missed the playoffs when he left. Manu came to a team that won a title while he was overseas and won a second while he was a straight up role player with Duncan having playoff games of 15/20/10, 37/16, 40/15/7, 32/15/5, 34/24/6/6, 21/20/7, 32/20/6/7, 21/16/7/3, 23/17/7, 29/17/4/4, and 21/20/10/8. And 4 or 5 of those were in a row and the last several in the finals.

Bill Russell was never in anyones supporting cast.

Manu isnt Russell. Hes Duncans John Havlicek...at least if you disregard that John did a lot more without Russell than Manu will do without Duncan.

[WillyJakk]

Except Bill Russell made a dynasty of a team that never even made the finals before him and missed the playoffs when he left. Manu came to a team that won a title while he was overseas and won a second while he was a straight up role player with Duncan having playoff games of 15/20/10, 37/16, 40/15/7, 32/15/5, 34/24/6/6, 21/20/7, 32/20/6/7, 21/16/7/3, 23/17/7, 29/17/4/4, and 21/20/10/8. And 4 or 5 of those were in a row and the last several in the finals.

Bill Russell was never in anyones supporting cast.

Manu isnt Russell. Hes Duncans John Havlicek...at least if you disregard that John did a lot more without Russell than Manu will do without Duncan.

Love how you noted the Spurs won in '99 before Manu got there but then conveniently left out the fact the Lakers had a 3peat dynasty run and then the Spurs reclaim the title in 2003, 2005, and 2007 (after Manu was drafted in 2002).

I appreciate your agenda driven posts based on ignorant support/ biased of the old school. :facepalm

Also love how you point out "Manu isn't someone who led a gang of teams to numerous titles" (paraphrase) but describe guys like West etc who took far more shots than Manu ever has as practically "idols" when West is the guy for all his "gaudy" numbers only has 1 ring.

As if Jerry West, Clyde Drexler, or any other SG has.

[2LeTTeRS]

Wow, I never know Manu was this overrated. Would say more, but seems like everything I was thinking has already been said.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I'll just say this:
To me Manu is the Bill Russell of premiter players. He has won, won, and won.


good lord, some mod make this thread stop :facepalm

[Doctor Rivers]

Manu is the GOAT

[Boston C's]

Ray and Manu did go H2H in the 2005 playoffs (semi WCF). Spurs won in 6, Ginobili averaged 22 PPG the next series in Phoenix, playing 36 minutes a game.

In 6 games (SAS vs. SEA) their averages were:

Manu: 20.5 PPG (.58 FG%), 5.2 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG, 31.0 MPG

Allen: 21.5 PPG (.44 FG%), 4.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 MPG

Ginobili had a 39 point game five, after which Duncan said "Manu was awesome. Tony and myself weren't playing great games, but he found a way to take us over that hump."

those stats are skewed not only because manu practically never checked ray and it was bowen but also that ray left after the first quarter of game 1 when he had 8 points on 3-5 shooting because of an ankle injury... so ray not only played with an injury that entire series but his eight points in game 1 were factored in his averages in that series even though he only played 1 quarter... and ray took that spurs team to the brink with no rashard or radman which were the second and third leadin scorers of the sonics that yr and huge parts of the team

[Kblaze8855]

Love how you noted the Spurs won in '99 before Manu got there but then conveniently left out the fact the Lakers had a 3peat dynasty run and then the Spurs reclaim the title in 2003, 2005, and 2007 (after Manu was drafted in 2002).


You needed me to actually say that the numbers I posted for Duncan were from 2003?

We all saw it. We are NBA fans. We didnt miss out on 3 other rings. But Duncan gets the credit for those rings if it goes to mostly one player. Always has always wsill.


I appreciate your agenda driven posts based on ignorant support/ biased of the old school. :facepalm

A guy claiming Manu is beyond Jerry West and Wade telling me I have an agenda is funny for reasons nobody should need explained.



Also love how you point out "Manu isn't someone who led a gang of teams to numerous titles" (paraphrase) but describe guys like West etc who took far more shots than Manu ever has as practically "idols" when West is the guy for all his "gaudy" numbers only has 1 ring.

As if Jerry West, Clyde Drexler, or any other SG has.

For one...Jerry west is an idol. Jerry West is an icon....he is literally the logo of the NBA.

And Jerry West could have never won a ring and Manu couldnt compare to him.

One of them is a record setting, all time elite, first ballot HOF player who compares to the likes of Oscar Robertson...Manu...is a very good player who won some rings on someone elses team.

The only reason I dont delete this topic is that your words do more to discredit the idea that Manu is underrated than anyone else could. And that amuses me.

Jerry West is approaching NBA Mt.Rushmore status. Manu is just...a really good guard.

Just how it is.

[EricForman]

firstly, nash still playing well today changes nothing about the legitimacy of his MVPs

second, nash is one of the most beloved players on this site, i cant think of any posters who 'hate' on nash.


Actually it kinda does. Nash has proven in the years since that he was no fluke, no product of system, not someone who merely benefitted from playing with a "stacked team". He's proven he's elite and belongs in the multiple MVP winners category.

Also, I've been here since 2003 ish, Nash was routinely trashed from 2005 to 2009 or so for winning MVPs. Mainly by Kobe fans, granted, but still.

[SCdac]

those stats are skewed not only because manu practically never checked ray and it was bowen but also that ray left after the first quarter of game 1 when he had 8 points on 3-5 shooting because of an ankle injury... so ray not only played with an injury that entire series but his eight points in game 1 were factored in his averages in that series even though he only played 1 quarter... and ray took that spurs team to the brink with no rashard or radman which were the second and third leadin scorers of the sonics that yr and huge parts of the team

Lewis played three of the games, 36 minutes (in two of them) and 45 minutes.... I never claimed Manu shut down, checked, or solely guarded Ray. The point is, they were both close to their primes (both were AS's) and had comparable series, although Manu had the better series. it's the only time they've ever faced each other in the PO's. In the first game it was Allen's 8 points to Manu's 10 so it's not like Manu got a huge head start in terms of stats.... H2H in the regular season, in 17 games, it's Manu's 14/4/4 to Allen's 20/3/3 with Ray averaging about 10 more minutes per game and 6 more shots on average. Spurs generally have great defense, but Manu has gone up against great defenses too so I don't think it's a moot point to bring up these numbers and other stats of his.

[Kblaze8855]

He's proven he's elite and belongs in the multiple MVP winners category.


He has not and can not prove hes on the level of those players. He just cant. There are people who led worse teams than hes had to titles who dont justify ranking with guys on that level(Wilt, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, the Malones, Lebron, and Duncan off the top of my head).

Its a list of players he will never deserve inclusion on if the issue is how well they play the game.

You want to argue he deserved both MVPs? case could be made much easier than arguing hes on or near their level. I suspect that might not be what you meant though. I dont think I remember you saying anything else id find that foolish so im gonna go on and assume that till told otherwise. You dont have the history standard of people to say things that far off.

[WillyJakk]

I got a bottom line for you KBlaze:

Can Prime Jerry West check Prime Manu Ginobli?

Can Prime Manu Ginobili check prime Jerry West?

Take away the stats and what do YOUR eyes tell you?

Who was a better player?

Jerry West was a bad man who could only dribble w/ his right hand but bad nonetheless.

He was clutch and he was a guy that played w/ the most dominant force of all time (according to you, jlauber, Cavsftw) in Wilt Chamberlain but only has 1 ring to show for it, (get it, this is the part where the rings argument become relevant) while Manu as a guy who put up comparable stats, playing w/ the greatest PF ever in Tim Duncan has 3 rings (and maybe a 4th).

You could answer the 1st part of this post if you like or you could delete the thread simply because I feel that Manu is a better player than Jerry West.

And just cause I believe Manu > West doesn't make it true and the funny thing is you're arguing this while also admitting that the 5th best SG spot is arguable that Manu could actually be there which is EXACTLY what I said in the op.

#AnswerTheQuestion

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

During his entire NBA career, I think its fair to say he has never been the best player on his team. So, how many years, if any, was he the 2nd best?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I got a bottom line for you KBlaze:

Can Prime Jerry West check Prime Manu Ginobli?

Can Prime Manu Ginobili check prime Jerry West?

Take away the stats and what do YOUR eyes tell you?

Who was a better player?

Jerry West was a bad man who could only dribble w/ his right hand but bad nonetheless.

He was clutch and he was a guy that played w/ the most dominant force of all time (according to you, jlauber, Cavsftw) in Wilt Chamberlain but only has 1 ring to show for it, (get it, this is the part where the rings argument become relevant) while Manu as a guy who put up comparable stats, playing w/ the greatest PF ever in Tim Duncan has 3 rings (and maybe a 4th).

You could answer the 1st part of this post if you like or you could delete the thread simply because I feel that Manu is a better player than Jerry West.

And just cause I believe Manu > West doesn't make it true and the funny thing is you're arguing this while also admitting that the 5th best SG spot is arguable that Manu could actually be there which is EXACTLY what I said in the op.

#AnswerTheQuestion
you are not suggesting that Manu is as good, or better, all around player than Jerry West?

[Big#50]

Everyone hates Manu because he is South American, balding, isnt a thug, and balls up their favorite black players. At his best, the dude is one of the best players ever. Stop talking about players from pre 80's. They were all good for their time. Different brand of basketball was played back then.

[Doctor Rivers]

Everyone hates Manu because he is South American, balding, isnt a thug, and balls up their favorite black players. At his best, the dude is one of the best players ever. Stop talking about players from pre 80's. They were all good for their time. Different brand of basketball was played back then.

Manu > Wilt?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Everyone hates Manu because he is South American, balding, isnt a thug, and balls up their favorite black players. At his best, the dude is one of the best players ever. Stop talking about players from pre 80's. They were all good for their time. Different brand of basketball was played back then.
I like Manu. Seems like a class act.
I wish he was a Laker. He would be a great 6th man!

[bizil]

I got a bottom line for you KBlaze:

Can Prime Jerry West check Prime Manu Ginobli?

Can Prime Manu Ginobili check prime Jerry West?

Take away the stats and what do YOUR eyes tell you?

Who was a better player?

Jerry West was a bad man who could only dribble w/ his right hand but bad nonetheless.

He was clutch and he was a guy that played w/ the most dominant force of all time (according to you, jlauber, Cavsftw) in Wilt Chamberlain but only has 1 ring to show for it, (get it, this is the part where the rings argument become relevant) while Manu as a guy who put up comparable stats, playing w/ the greatest PF ever in Tim Duncan has 3 rings (and maybe a 4th).

You could answer the 1st part of this post if you like or you could delete the thread simply because I feel that Manu is a better player than Jerry West.

And just cause I believe Manu > West doesn't make it true and the funny thing is you're arguing this while also admitting that the 5th best SG spot is arguable that Manu could actually be there which is EXACTLY what I said in the op.

#AnswerTheQuestion

The thing is West was for damn 20 + years the GOAT SG. He dominated his era WAY more than Manu did this. Even when u had new blood coming in the L like Monroe, Maravich, and Bing, West was still in my opinion better than them. U mention that West could only go right. I just happen to think the West was right hand dominant and maybe wasn't as fluid with is left.

West played a ton of PG and was a great passer. West also ran into an all time great PG in Walt Frazier. If West's handle was so bad, Frazier would have stealing his rock all the time AND make him look like a fool. West had all the tools to be an all time great PG in additon to his dominance at SG. As a matter of fact in today's game, West would most likely be a PG. But then again West was a lil over 6'2 without shoes. So in today's game he would be around 6'4 and a combo guard. Which is what he became over time anyway.

Finally, basketball is the most everchanging sport in terms of evolution in my book. The evolution moves faster than baseball and football in my book. So sure if u take Manu and put him in the 60's, he would be a superstar. Because he was a big guard at 6'7, very well rounded, and a great athlete. But if u put West in today's game, his handle would evolved. And he was already a great defender, shooter, and passer to begin with. And West was an underrated athlete. So it works both ways.

To be honest, once the Pearl, Frazier, and Pete came around, ball handling was more similar to how it is done today. But handles are just one facet of the game. West was so devastating in his day that him being right hand dominant isn't enough to say his game as it was then wouldn't translate to being great today. But their were guards and small forwards in the L in the 90's who DIDN'T have a great left hand either. Drexler and Dr. J would dominate today and NEITHER had a great left hand. Plus West's jumper was so great (arguably the best all time) that it sets up his slashing to the rack.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Finally, basketball is the most everchanging sport in terms of evolution in my book. The evolution moves faster than baseball and football in my book. So sure if u take Manu and put him in the 60's, he would be a superstar. Because he was a big guard at 6'7, very well rounded, and a great athlete. But if u put West in today's game, his handle would evolved. And he was already a great defender, shooter, and passer to begin with. And West was an underrated athlete. So it works both ways.

Football has evolved wayyyy more than bball.

[ILLsmak]

No. There is not. And I like Manu. But that is just absurd...and it will never...ever...ever..be the opinion of anyone who is taken serious in basketball. Even if he were arguably top 3 by ability(He isnt) you cant go all legacy and even start to compare him to Jerry West. Not like Jerry doesnt have a gold medal too....

Jerry Wests accomplishments are otherworldly.




There have been several teams Manu would be the 3rd best swingman on. The idea that hes arguably the 3rd best 2 guard ever is gonna do nothing but get him hated on.


I think people want to underrate Manu to overrate Duncan, maybe, or they are Kobe fans. Manu isn't a top 3 all time, but in the era where the Spurs were a great team, he could be argued as top 3. And it wasn't about him being overall top 3 just that in the moment he needed to take over he was as good as any other SG. He did some amazing shit. He broke my heart often.

-Smak

[bizil]

Football has evolved wayyyy more than bball.

In the last 25-30 years, I feel basketball's evolution has moved faster than football. In terms of having oversized PG's, ball handling, etc. I say this because in basketball PLAYERS HAVE TO PLAY BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL! Football players have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster. But that happens in every sport. Dan Fouts could throw it just as far as the QB's do today. He was throwing to a TE in Kellen Winslow who was already a look as he was then to the TE of the future. U had OJ and Tony Dorsett who would EASILY fit in today. U have guys like LT who would absolutely dominate today.

Basketball is such a high scoring sport AND it's more constant movement than the other sports. U gotta play both sides of the ball, so the evolution is DOUBLE! In football, guys normally only play one side of the ball. And in baseball u aren't guarding a man, u occupy a certain space. I've always considered bball players as the best athletes in the world. It combines running, jumping, strength, and constant action is a manner that other sports don't.

Look at a tape of football or baseball in the 60's or 70's and look at a tape of basketball in the same era. The football or baseball would look more similar to today than basketball does. The guys in the 60's or 70's weren't playing above the rim like today. U had certain guys who could, but it wasn't as widespread. In basketball u have WAY more opportunities to express your personality or creativity through your skills. In football and baseball, the chance aren't as great. All of these factors lend itself to basketball evolving more at a rapid pace than football or baseball in the last 30-40 years.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Jerry West, as an injured old man, in his last season:
20 ppg
45% fg
6.6 assists
2.6 steals

BEAST!

If you want to see some gaudy stats...go look him up.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

In the last 25-30 years, I feel basketball's evolution has moved faster than football. In terms of having oversized PG's, ball handling, etc. I say this because in basketball PLAYERS HAVE TO PLAY BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL! Football players have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster. But that happens in every sport. Dan Fouts could throw it just as far as the QB's do today. He was throwing to a TE in Kellen Winslow who was already a look as he was then to the TE of the future. U had OJ and Tony Dorsett who would EASILY fit in today. U have guys like LT who would absolutely dominate today.

Basketball is such a high scoring sport AND it's more constant movement than the other sports. U gotta play both sides of the ball, so the evolution is DOUBLE! In football, guys normally only play one side of the ball. And in baseball u aren't guarding a man, u occupy a certain space. I've always considered bball players as the best athletes in the world. It combines running, jumping, strength, and constant action is a manner that other sports don't.

Look at a tape of football or baseball in the 60's or 70's and look at a tape of basketball in the same era. The football or baseball would look more similar to today than basketball does. The guys in the 60's or 70's weren't playing above the rim like today. U had certain guys who could, but it wasn't as widespread. In basketball u have WAY more opportunities to express your personality or creativity through your skills. In football and baseball, the chance aren't as great. All of these factors lend itself to basketball evolving more at a rapid pace than football or baseball in the last 30-40 years.
I hear what you are saying. Just looking at the size and athleticism of bball players over the years, you still see 6'7" SGs in the 1960s. You had big centers. Indeed, you had more bigs in the 70s and 80s than you have now. Hell today you have many 6'4" SGs and lots of undersized centers and PFs.

Now, in football:
30 years ago an offensive lineman could weight 250lbs. Their LBs were 200lbs. Today's OL are regularly 305+. Today, you have 250lb LBs who can run 4.5
etc etc

[Kblaze8855]

I got a bottom line for you KBlaze:

Can Prime Jerry West check Prime Manu Ginobli?

Can Prime Manu Ginobili check prime Jerry West?

Take away the stats and what do YOUR eyes tell you?

Who was a better player?

Can Manu guard Jerry? Icant say. I dont imagine he would do an unusually poor job. Not like there were not similar sized good athletes guarding Jerry then.

Could Jerry Guard manu? Of course. Manu isnt some ultra explosive attacker. Hes a passive opportunist with great skills. He has games with 2-10 points often enough to not be surprising. Hes putting up 12ppg. He doesnt light teams up. Hes only made 10 shots 3 times in 2 years.......

Manu doesnt require some amazing defensive attention to contain. Hes self contained more often than not.



Jerry West was a bad man who could only dribble w/ his right hand but bad nonetheless.

He was clutch and he was a guy that played w/ the most dominant force of all time (according to you, jlauber, Cavsftw) in Wilt Chamberlain but only has 1 ring to show for it, (get it, this is the part where the rings argument become relevant) while Manu as a guy who put up comparable stats, playing w/ the greatest PF ever in Tim Duncan has 3 rings (and maybe a 4th).

Hes won rings with a guy who did it without him and did it twice before he was anything but a role player.

It does not now and never will get the same respect as being a dominant franchise player.

If you want to judge things that way Sam Jones destroys everyone.


You could answer the 1st part of this post if you like or you could delete the thread simply because I feel that Manu is a better player than Jerry West.

That isnt a "simply". Thats pretty much the same thing as saying Byron Scott is better than Elgin Baylor.

Its a statement so far from the norm it almost has to be just for a reaction.



And just cause I believe Manu > West doesn't make it true and the funny thing is you're arguing this while also admitting that the 5th best SG spot is arguable that Manu could actually be there which is EXACTLY what I said in the op.

No. It is not. Manu is not anything approaching the top tier of swingmen.

I understad that you try to limit it to shooting guards to make it easier to disregard many much better players even though almost nobody in history to play the position wasnt simply a swingman who played both the 2 and 3....

But...no.

Manu is not especially high on the list of wing players.

And all topics like these do is make people wish one of the most respected franchises in sports would fail.

That people like you dont see that you generate 90% of the hate you speak out against is amazing to me.

Guys like you are the worst thing to happen to the reputation of the players you support. Manu is a great player and deserves better than to be hated on in reaction to idiotic claims that hes better than the likes of West, Isiah, ad Wade.

He would be better off legacy wise without you.

[Disaprine]

manu better than jerry? jesus christ :roll:

[Euroleague]

U ever heard of Sarunas marciulionis...the true originator of the Eurostep....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fumWbJomIS4

I think the euro step was around even before Marciulionis' time. I am pretty sure that it was being used in the 70s in the NBA and Europe.

[Euroleague]

Everyone hates Manu because he is South American, balding, isnt a thug, and balls up their favorite black players. At his best, the dude is one of the best players ever. Stop talking about players from pre 80's. They were all good for their time. Different brand of basketball was played back then.

Balding? Why the hell would anyone care about that?

[Big#50]

Balding? Why the hell would anyone care about that?
Because he doesnt fit the mold of what a baller is supposed to look like. Marbury, AI, etc.

[Euroleague]

Because he doesnt fit the mold of what a baller is supposed to look like. Marbury, AI, etc.

I don't get what you mean. I've never heard a serious basketball fan say they liked Iverson or Marbury, but most of them love Manu.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive never heard of anyone hating on Manu in person. Ive been in barbershops full of black fans and everyone was 100% in agreement...than Manu was nice.

[Big#50]

Ive never heard of anyone hating on Manu in person. Ive been in barbershops full of black fans and everyone was 100% in agreement...than Manu was nice.
Was there one white guy who thought Marciano would beat Clay? What did you think about the old guy that said Joe Louis was 140 when Marciano beat him?

[Kblaze8855]

His momma named him clay...im gonna call him clay.

[Euroleague]

Was there one white guy who thought Marciano would beat Clay? What did you think about the old guy that said Joe Louis was 140 when Marciano beat him?

Sexual Chocolate ladies and gentlemen...........

[Big#50]

While we don't agree with our bball thoughts, I'm sure we all love that ****ing movie.

[WillyJakk]

Actually, I don't even know why I argued Manu > West simply because from me stating (off someone else's SG LIST) West as a SG when in reality I never even considered him a SG.

I shoulda nipped that in the bud but got caught up in the debate (again from seeing someone else list WEST AS THE 2ND OR 3RD BEST SG) which in my opinion is an error cause I always considered him more of a PG than a SG even though he could score which is similar to Iverson and other combo guards in that regard.

"Yes! Yes! In thee face!!"

*Edit*: See this is exactly what I'm talking about...

Manu goes for 20 pts tonite VS LA (and Kobe) and does so on 9 shots.

Dude is just an efficient ass baller and is superb at what he does.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Because he came off the bench.

[TheBigVeto]

Manu is 2nd GOAT SG.
Anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong.

[Doctor Rivers]

Manu is 2nd GOAT SG.
Anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong.

Wade

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually, I don't even know why I argued Manu > West simply because from me stating (off someone else's SG LIST) West as a SG when in reality I never even considered him a SG. I shoulda nipped that in the bud but got caught up in the debate (again from seeing someone else list WEST AS THE 2ND OR 3RD BEST SG) which in my opinion is an error cause I always considered him more of a PG than a SG even though he could score which is similar to Iverson and other combo guards in that regard.

In the 70s running the team with Gail Goodrich, West became the primary ball carrier, or "point guard," but that term was not defined until the mid to late 70s (post-merger) with cat-quick mighty mouses like John Lucas, Norm Nixon, Gus Williams, Kevin Porter, Johnny Davis. Archibald was an early precursor in 1970-75. Make of that what you will.:confusedshrug:

[Boston C's]

Lewis played three of the games, 36 minutes (in two of them) and 45 minutes.... I never claimed Manu shut down, checked, or solely guarded Ray. The point is, they were both close to their primes (both were AS's) and had comparable series, although Manu had the better series. it's the only time they've ever faced each other in the PO's. In the first game it was Allen's 8 points to Manu's 10 so it's not like Manu got a huge head start in terms of stats.... H2H in the regular season, in 17 games, it's Manu's 14/4/4 to Allen's 20/3/3 with Ray averaging about 10 more minutes per game and 6 more shots on average. Spurs generally have great defense, but Manu has gone up against great defenses too so I don't think it's a moot point to bring up these numbers and other stats of his.

you could easily argue the bolded because the way ray was going that game he could have easily finished with 25-30 points which would bring up his scoring average greatly and get more rebounds and assists along with that... so yes it does essentially make manus stats closer to rays when you do this... and if manu has gone up against great defenses how come he only averages 14/4/4 and how come he doensnt get more minutes... its not like a washed up brent barry should be taking his min

[PJR]

Manu isn't even a top 10 SG all time.

[oolalaa]

:facepalm

So much fail in this thread...


There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time


If I were to build a team from any players all time, he would very possibly be my second pick behind MJ at sg.



Third best SG I've ever seen, behind MJ and Kobe.


Duncan wouldn't be a 4x champion if he didn't have stacked teams, and Manu carried his fundamental ass to two rings.


I would take Manu over Kobe anyday when building a team.



Prime Manu is better than late 80's Thomas.


Manu is better than ****ing Dumars, Bing, Richmond, Miller, Sharman, Thompson, Gervin. LOL.



Swap Kobe and Manu and the Lakers go the the finals this year.



To me Manu is the Bill Russell of premiter players.


Jerry West was a bad man who could only dribble w/ his right hand but bad nonetheless....I feel that Manu is a better player than Jerry West.


Are you ****ing kidding me? You guys call yourselves basketball fans? You all should be slapped.

[RaininTwos]

:facepalm

So much fail in this thread...






















Are you ****ing kidding me? You guys call yourselves basketball fans? You all should be slapped.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Killbot]

:facepalm

So much fail in this thread...


Are you ****ing kidding me? You guys call yourselves basketball fans? You all should be slapped.
:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

His underratedness reminds me of Rick Barry

[Mr. Jabbar]

:facepalm

So much fail in this thread...






















Are you ****ing kidding me? You guys call yourselves basketball fans? You all should be slapped.


:oldlol:

[SCdac]

you could easily argue the bolded because the way ray was going that game he could have easily finished with 25-30 points which would bring up his scoring average greatly and get more rebounds and assists along with that... so yes it does essentially make manus stats closer to rays when you do this... and if manu has gone up against great defenses how come he only averages 14/4/4 and how come he doensnt get more minutes... its not like a washed up brent barry should be taking his min

Umm, because he plays for the Spurs, which emphasizes sharing the ball and team depth...

Barry was a solid player who was #2 in three point shooting percentage in the 04 season, hardly "washed up" or a bad player. Barry played 4 more seasons in the league after this...

after that Sonics series, against the Suns and Pistons Manu averaged:

Manu - 36.4 MPG
Barry - 26 MPG
Brown - 0.0 MPG

Manu - 36.0 MPG
Barry - 20 MPG
Brown - 5.8 MPG

After the '05 season, Spurs added Michael Finley who was still a formidable player, great shooter, and can throw down big dunks.

In the 2006 playoffs, against the Kings and Mavs Ginobili averaged:

Manu - 30.7 MPG (game 1 was a blowout, no starters played more than 30 min)
Finley - 25.03 MPG
Barry - 23.3 MPG

Manu - 34.7 MPG
Finley - 37.1 MPG (Spurs went small-ball in the series, pushed Finley to SF & PF)
Barry - 23.0 MPG

When you have a deep backcourt, as the coach it's in your best interest to play all of the guards and get the most out of your roster, but no doubt Manu has been one of the best SG's of the last decade (top-5). Keep in mind, out of all these mentioned players, Manu was the only one playing overseas and LEADING his own team every summer. That takes a toll. If you don't understand the way the Spurs divvy out playing time, you won't understand why Manu's minutes are the way they are. He's never been on a losing team or fringe-playoff team that's desperate for him to play 40 MPG.

[EvanW]

Nobody's actually argued why Manu isn't better than some of these guys (most of which have one less rings than he has, if any).

[WillyJakk]

Bump..


Take away Wade's athletic ability and this is what you get, a slow guy who can sometimes hit a jumper and occasionally finish, exactly what you're seeing now.

Manu's athleticism gone and he still has a better basketball mind than most so he is still therefore effective.

This is what happens when peeps get caught up in the highlight dunks, they actually forget you have to dribble be able to shoot etc.

[TheBigVeto]

2nd GOAT SG after Jordan.
Fact.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

One of the 20 best shooting guards ever but hes a system player and era specific player

[Shih508]

2nd GOAT SG after Jordan.
Fact.

:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

Take away Wade's athletic ability and this is what you get, a slow guy who can sometimes hit a jumper and occasionally finish, exactly what you're seeing now.

Too bad that while he had it he was a 30/8/5 all nba first teamer who has already won 2 rings one of them playing a larger role than Manu ever has.

Manu is putting up 11.5 a game on 38% shooting as the 4th best player on his team. 10/5 on 41% with 29% from 3 vs Memphis

That it took wade playing the worst of his life to fall to near Manus level tells you something.

Manu does this its...."Ah ha! Let me bump a topic about how good he is!"

Wade does it its "What the hell is wrong with Wade?".

Which says enough about the usual expected level of play from each of them.