More Mavs struggle, more the Heat look worse for losing to them in the Finals

[PleezeBelieve]

You all think Miami winning it in 2012?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216885

[Peteballa]

Someone link the thread where PB is talking about how big of a flop Kyrie will be in the NBA.

[jb220]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

[Peteballa]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

Refs didn't cause Miami to lose, and the Heat didn't have the best 3 players in the series.

Your post is void.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lraf8aM3cT1qzja38o1_500.gif

[Fiasco]

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[SCdac]

But but but the Heat were "one of the most stacked teams of all time!" .... lets just forget that half their team was Mike Bibby (soon to be retired), Jamal Magloire (retired), Zydrunas Ilguaskas (retired), Eddie House (retired), Juwan Howard (soon to be retired), a struggling Mike Miller, and a back-from-injury Udonis Haslem... That series is on Lebron as much as anybody (dude disappeared and was owned by Marion), but that team was not as strong as their big 3 would suggest. Them making it to the Finals in their first season together shows how wide-open the league was/is.

[jb220]

But but but the Heat were "one of the most stacked teams of all time!" .... lets just forget that half their team was Mike Bibby (soon to be retired), Jamal Magloire (retired), Zydrunas Ilguaskas (retired), Eddie House (retired), Juwan Howard (soon to be retired), a struggling Mike Miller, and a back-from-injury Udonis Haslem... That series is on Lebron as much as anybody (dude disappeared and was owned by Marion), but that team was not as strong as their big 3 would suggest.
They got to the fcking NBA Finals, how flawed can they be? They beat the Celtics and Bulls who would both likely sweep the Mavs. Heat lost because LeBron is a choker and eats shit.

[AMISTILLILL]

Someone post the thread where PB claimed LeBron gave him a head nod at the club.

[EnoughSaid]

For anyone who thinks that this Mavs team is the same that was in the Finals last year, tell them they need medical attention. :facepalm

[Celtics 1825]

But but but the Heat were "one of the most stacked teams of all time!" .... lets just forget that half their team was Mike Bibby (soon to be retired), Jamal Magloire (retired), Zydrunas Ilguaskas (retired), Eddie House (retired), Juwan Howard (soon to be retired), a struggling Mike Miller, and a back-from-injury Udonis Haslem... That series is on Lebron as much as anybody (dude disappeared and was owned by Marion), but that team was not as strong as their big 3 would suggest. Them making it to the Finals in their first season together shows how wide-open the league was/is.

Actually, believe it or not, Magloire is still playing :lol but of course he's barely playing and he'll retire soon as well. Also, house isn't retired yet, he's a free agent.

But yeah, people think that the Heat are so stacked, but their only good players are the big 3.

[tmacattack33]

Well if that's true for Miami, then it's true for okc and la too.

And then if u use implications (which is what u r doing), it implies that Chicago sucks even more because they lost to Miami last year. The same goes for the celtics. And it also means that that Memphis sucks because thy lost to okc and okc lost to Dallas... And on and on and on, until eventually u reach the conclusion that every team in the league sucks. Lol.


But it's not like that anyway. The general consensus is that Dallas is a lot worse this yr compared to his they were playing in last years playoffs. They lost two key players in chandler and barea. Kidd and dirk are a year older. Etc

[gilalizard]

Well if that's true for Miami, then it's true for okc and la too.

And then if u use implications (which is what u r doing), it implies that Chicago sucks even more because they lost to Miami last year. The same goes for the celtics. And it also means that that Memphis sucks because thy lost to okc and okc lost to Dallas... And on and on and on, until eventually u reach the conclusion that every team in the league sucks. Lol.


But it's not like that anyway. The general consensus is that Dallas is a lot worse this yr compared to his they were playing in last years playoffs. They lost two key players in chandler and barea. Kidd and dirk are a year older. Etc

And the Odom fiasco.

[j3lademaster]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

Lebron was no more than a very good role player who got a lot of defensive attention that series.

[NumberSix]

OP is a phaggit

http://s14.postimage.org/mobd6z0wf/cleveland_SUcks.jpg

[coin24]

They got to the fcking NBA Finals, how flawed can they be? They beat the Celtics and Bulls who would both likely sweep the Mavs. Heat lost because LeBron is a choker and eats shit.


Basically this.:applause:

[Kurosawa0]

Actually, I think if Dallas had kept their pieces together from last year they'd be the favorite to come out of the West again.

[ralph_i_el]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[gilalizard]

Actually, I think if Dallas had kept their pieces together from last year they'd be the favorite to come out of the West again.

They had so much chemistry and experience, with the added confidence from their chip, they would of been really fun to watch.

[bmulls]

Do you idiots not realize that the Mavs lost 6 players, 4 of them who started multiple games last season?

Chandler, Barea, Stevenson, even Peja came up huge during the Lakers series. Caron Butler was out for the post season, but he was the Mavs' 2nd best player all year long.

This team is completely different than last years, no comparison can be made.

[bmulls]

Do you idiots not realize that the Mavs lost 6 players, 4 of them who started multiple games last season?

Chandler, Barea, Stevenson, even Peja came up huge during the Lakers series. Caron Butler was out for the post season, but he was the Mavs' 2nd best player all year long.

This team is completely different than last years, no comparison can be made.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Do you idiots not realize that the Mavs lost 6 players, 4 of them who started multiple games last season?

Chandler, Barea, Stevenson, even Peja came up huge during the Lakers series. Caron Butler was out for the post season, but he was the Mavs' 2nd best player all year long.

This team is completely different than last years, no comparison can be made.

this

[stephanieg]

I hope the Mavs and Heat meet up in the finals again...with the same result, 'natch.

[tmacattack33]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...

If the op wants to use this logic (using this yrs reg season results to determine how good teams were in last yrs playoffs ) then it means the bulls must have een amazing last year in the playoffs, because they look great in this yrs reg season...they looked good even without d rose. Also, the celtics must have been amazing in last yrs playoffs, because this yr they look great and they are all one year older even!


So wow! Miami must have been ridiculously good to have beaten Boston and Chicago last year so convincingly!

[Balla_Status]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

Serious? Dirk was the best on the floor.

[Force]

its a FAR different team...Barea murdered the Lakers and Heat...they miss him big time. look at the main rotation players, the mavs are a lot different and this doesnt take anything away from the heat at all...OP is desperate

[miles berg]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

I'm guessing you forgot the Mavs had Dirk Nowitzki.

Him & Wade were clearly the two best players on those teams, LeBron a close 3rd, Jet 4th, Chandler/Bosh/Marion a lll good players too.

[coin24]

The Mavs were on fire for pretty much the whole series, Dirk went into god mode, Terry, Marion, Kidd, Chandler, Barea etc all played to there full potential..


On the other hand, Lebron disappeared. And when youre built on only 3 players dominating, and 1 goes into a shell, youre in trouble...
If Lebron showed up, the heat win.

[mikek85]

You guys should rewatch the finals.

The Mavs won because Dirk entered GOD MODE.

[RazorBaLade]

I'm guessing you forgot the Mavs had Dirk Nowitzki.

Him & Wade were clearly the two best players on those teams, LeBron a close 3rd, Jet 4th, Chandler/Bosh/Marion a lll good players too.

if we go off the finals only isnt it

dirk>wade>terry>bosh/marion>lebron>chandler?

[bigt]

I feel bad for the genuine Miami fans on here who have to put up with this constant crap. Dallas' struggles this year do absolutely nothing for how the Heat look. The Dallas team lost a bunch of key pieces and are in no way the same team that were in the finals last season. If we want to make Miami look bad because of how Dallas are going this year, boy the Lakers are absolutely laughable because they go swept, or wow the Thunder must suck since they didn't get the job done.

It means jack all, end of.

[R.I.P.]

Best players in the finals were

Dirk (fully fit)
Wade
Dirk (4th quarter only)
Chandler
Dirk (with the flu)
Bosh
Terry
Kidd
LeBron (three quarters)
.
.
.
.
Cardinal
Dampier
LeBron (4th quarter)

[Rnbizzle]

I feel bad for the genuine Miami fans on here who have to put up with this constant crap. Dallas' struggles this year do absolutely nothing for how the Heat look. The Dallas team lost a bunch of key pieces and are in no way the same team that were in the finals last season. If we want to make Miami look bad because of how Dallas are going this year, boy the Lakers are absolutely laughable because they go swept, or wow the Thunder must suck since they didn't get the job done.

It means jack all, end of.
would rep.

[DMAVS41]

Do people really not understand this year?

No training camp, a bunch of new players, condensed schedule, Dirk hurt the first month...and the Odom problem.

The Mavs essentially lost 4 key players and replaced them with 4 or 5 new guys. There was no practice time to start the year. This team is old and has suffered through a bunch of injuries. And then to top it all off....we lost Chandler and essentially replaced him with nobody because Odom turned out to be horrible.

And even with all of that, we are marginally worse this year right now when healthy. Last year we were around 20 to 22 to 1 to win it all. This year we are around 28 to 30 to 1 to win it all.

Did anyone really expect an old as **** team like the Mavs to just breeze through the condensed regular season with that much turnover and Odom turning out the way he did? LOL

[BlueandGold]

It's true, either way you want to slice it it still doesn't look good for the heat. When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 04 (who seemed to come from nowhere) it appeared pretty bad at the time but the pistons ECF run in 05 and Finals run in 06 made that loss at least seem better. If the mavs get bounced in lets say the first round however you want to argue it it's not going to look good for the Heat.

[All Net]

It's true, either way you want to slice it it still doesn't look good for the heat. When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 04 (who seemed to come from nowhere) it appeared pretty bad at the time but the pistons ECF run in 05 and Finals run in 06 made that loss at least seem better. If the mavs get bounced in lets say the first round however you want to argue it it's not going to look good for the Heat.

This would only be true if Dallas brought back the same team as last year. They are completely different. No Chandler, Barea, Stevenson. guys who were key in their playoff run.

[Hittin_Shots]

It's true, either way you want to slice it it still doesn't look good for the heat. When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 04 (who seemed to come from nowhere) it appeared pretty bad at the time but the pistons ECF run in 05 and Finals run in 06 made that loss at least seem better. If the mavs get bounced in lets say the first round however you want to argue it it's not going to look good for the Heat.

did u read any of the other responses or know basketball? or logic... also you just agreed with pb..

[Kblaze8855]

The idea that the Mavs are a totally different team is a head scratcher to me. They lost 1 impact player and 3 role players and gained 2 solid role players. Things like that happen to top teams all the time and they arent called totally new teams.

A team that maintains 4 of its 5 best players and its coach its not totally different because of a different 7th man replaced by a younger/flat out better one or a occasional(as in like...4 in 11 years) big shot making role player who was replaced with someone on the same level.

Teams have turned over 9-10 players in an offseason. The Mavs lost one player of real impact tothe league and they losth im by choice. Its just standard year to year roster change. People act like they rebuilt the roster...

[swi7ch]

fluke win just like rose fluke winning the mvp

[All Net]

The idea that the Mavs are a totally different team is a head scratcher to me. They lost 1 impact player and 3 role players and gained 2 solid role players. Things like that happen to top teams all the time and they arent called totally new teams.

A team that maintains 4 of its 5 best players and its coach its not totally different because of a different 7th man replaced by a younger/flat out better one or a occasional(as in like...4 in 11 years) big shot making role player who was replaced with someone on the same level.

Teams have turned over 9-10 players in an offseason. The Mavs lost one player of real impact tothe league and they losth im by choice. Its just standard year to year roster change. People act like they rebuilt the roster...

Certainly not top to bottom but they lost their key guy in the paint who changed the way teams attacked them inside. I think the biggest problem is their older players got older and in a lockout season it has been worse for them than it would of been in a normal 82 game season.

[swi7ch]

They lost 1 impact player and 3 role players
barea = difference maker cos he can hit clutch shots as well as penetrate and ignite the crowd/shut down the opposing crowd
stevenson = their best perimeter defender as well as clutch 3 pt shooter not to mention tough guy who doesn't back down
chandler = i dn't need to explain his role

which of the new dal players filled ANY of these big roles??? those 3 combined meant the same to dal as much as dirk!

[DMAVS41]

The idea that the Mavs are a totally different team is a head scratcher to me. They lost 1 impact player and 3 role players and gained 2 solid role players. Things like that happen to top teams all the time and they arent called totally new teams.

A team that maintains 4 of its 5 best players and its coach its not totally different because of a different 7th man replaced by a younger/flat out better one or a occasional(as in like...4 in 11 years) big shot making role player who was replaced with someone on the same level.

Teams have turned over 9-10 players in an offseason. The Mavs lost one player of real impact tothe league and they losth im by choice. Its just standard year to year roster change. People act like they rebuilt the roster...

In a normal year, it wouldn't matter as much. And in normal circumstances like replacing Chandler with Odom...it wouldn't matter much.

But this team is old...playing the toughest regular season in NBA history. Suffered through many injuries all year. And the player they signed to replace Chandler and be a key player on the Mavs....ended up being by far the worst player on the team.

Its a very different team on paper and in reality.

Having said that, even if the Mavs brought back everyone...you are still looking at a team that was likely going to win around 42 or so games this regular season.

I think people forget the circumstances of the actual schedule and how that is probably as big a factor or bigger than anything else.

I just think its funny that anyone would act like its a similar team....it isn't at all.

I mean...we lost our 2nd best player...replaced him with nobody, no training camp, old and injured, worst schedule possible....and the Odom situation.

And again...even with all of that. This team is only slightly less probable to make another run. Last year the Mavs were around 20 to 1 to win it entering the playoffs. This year the Mavs are around 30 to 1.

[DMAVS41]

barea = difference maker cos he can hit clutch shots as well as penetrate and ignite the crowd/shut down the opposing crowd
stevenson = their best perimeter defender as well as clutch 3 pt shooter not to mention tough guy who doesn't back down
chandler = i dn't need to explain his role

which of the new dal players filled ANY of these big roles??? those 3 combined meant the same to dal as much as dirk!

Meh...Carter, Roddy, and West have filled the roles of Barea and Stevenson very well.

The big problem is that Odom didn't work out. If Odom had worked out or we had signed Kaman instead...this team would be as good or better than the team that won it last year.

We have been missing that "1 other guy" all year. With the great play of Wright as well. You put Kaman on this team and I like our chances as much as anybody in the West.

That is what makes the Odom thing so frustrating. All he had to do was be average for him and he would have made this team infinitely better.

[swi7ch]

That team had so much chemistry and swagger that I still don't fully understand why Cuban---with all his money---didn't want to pay top money to keep those guys and win another title!

Just mind boggling to me. :eek:

[DMAVS41]

That team had so much chemistry and swagger that I still don't fully understand why Cuban---with all his money---didn't want to pay top money to keep those guys and win another title!

Just mind boggling to me. :eek:

Because winning the title again was far from a lock. Even with bringing everyone back the Mavs would be at best....the 4th best team in the league behind OKC, Bulls, and Heat.

With a whole host of teams that could easily beat us in the playoffs like the Spurs, Lakers, and Grizzlies.

It makes no sense to pay Barea and Butler what they got when you can easily replace them like we did.

The only thing possible to do was to Amnesty Haywood and sign Chandler long term, but even then you are committing 4 or 5 years and a ton of money to a player that couldn't even average a double double in the playoffs last year, is old, and often injured.

With the new CBA rules coming...Cuban made the right decisions. Again, if Odom has worked out at all...this team is just as good as the team that won it last year. Probably better when healthy actually.

[swi7ch]

Meh...Carter, Roddy, and West have filled the roles of Barea and Stevenson very well.
Are you kidding me?!? None of those guys had Barea's heart or Stevenson's defensive skills!

Vince Carter? Washed up. A backup today.
Roddy? Always injured and unproven. Has he even hit a big shot in the NBA? How does he perform in crucial moments?
West? Unreliable and low IQ.

Barea alone was almost as important as Dirk in that Heat series as he killed them with his big 3s and penetration. They had no answer for him all series long.

Mark Cuban... what the f*ck were you thinking?!?!?!? You couldn't have spent millions to keep these guys for a few more years???!?! Why did you turn into a cheapskate in the worst time!?!?!?

I'm a Heat fan but I loved that Dallas team...

[Kblaze8855]

Certainly not top to bottom but they lost their inforcer. I think the biggest problem is their older players got older and in a lockout season it has been worse for them than it would of been in a normal 82 game season.

Id imagine so. But I cat think of any other example in recent history where a team that changed out such minor players was called totally different when it maintained its core players from the last 2 years. Its....tinkering.

Im not sure id call it more than that.

The clippers had a totally new team. Add Chris Paul, Billups, and Butler and get a hold of Kmart and ick young while shipping out Eric Gordon, Baron, and Kaman...

Thats a new team.

The Mavs are a slightly modified team like many teams are. I can imagine some mavs fan coming in with a laughing emoticion at the words "Slightly modified" but ill just say this...

No other team I can remember who changed out such minor players was called totally different. Chandler is the only player they lost whos whereabouts are even relevant to basketball discussion. And they decided they didnt need him.

They didnt change out the roster. They made slight changes to it. Im not giving one speck of consideration to losing a guy who made literally one shot in the finals and had no value but shooting. Or a guy who was getting 11 or 12 minutes or going 1-1 in 14 minutes and having games where he played 4 minutes who was replaced by Delonte who looks solid every time I see him this year.

Its just...standard offseason moves. Not "This is a whle new team" moves.

[DMAVS41]

Are you kidding me?!? None of those guys had Barea's heart or Stevenson's defensive skills!

Vince Carter? Washed up. A backup today.
Roddy? Always injured and unproven. Has he even hit a big shot in the NBA? How does he perform in crucial moments?
West? Unreliable and low IQ.

Barea alone was almost as important as Dirk in that Heat series as he killed them with his big 3s and penetration. They had no answer for him all series long.

Mark Cuban... what the f*ck were you thinking?!?!?!? You couldn't have spent millions to keep these guys for a few more years???!?! Why did you turn into a cheapskate in the worst time!?!?!?

No...you just clearly over-rate the **** out of both of them. West is just flat out a better player than Barea. Not really close in my opinion.

Carter and Roddy have filled in just fine as well.

Do people understand that Barea averaged 9 points and shot 42% from the field in the playoffs last year? Yes, he had some big games...but he also is a liability on defense and prone to playing really poorly. He only played 18 minutes a game.

The idea that Roddy and West can't replace that is a joke...when in fact they have.

The difference in this team is Chandler. That is all. And really its in not getting a player to fill in for Chandler because the Odom signing failed. If Odom was playing 30 minutes a game putting up 12, 9, 3.....the Mavs would be just as good as we were last year.

[Kblaze8855]

I just think its funny that anyone would act like its a similar team....it isn't at all.

Simple quesiton...if the Mavs arent a similar team at all. Just...totally different team...

What are the Clippers?

All these claims are is being dramatic. Nothing the Mavs did this offseason was even worth coverage aside from letting Chandler go.

[DMAVS41]

Id imagine so. But I cat think of any other example in recent history where a team that changed out such minor players was called totally different when it maintained its core players from the last 2 years. Its....tinkering.

Im not sure id call it more than that.

The clippers had a totally new team. Add Chris Paul, Billups, and Butler and get a hold of Kmart and ick young while shipping out Eric Gordon, Baron, and Kaman...

Thats a new team.

The Mavs are a slightly modified team like many teams are. I can imagine some mavs fan coming in with a laughing emoticion at the words "Slightly modified" but ill just say this...

No other team I can remember who changed out such minor players was called totally different. Chandler is the only player they lost whos whereabouts are even relevant to basketball discussion. And they decided they didnt need him.

They didnt change out the roster. They made slight changes to it. Im not giving one speck of consideration to losing a guy who made literally one shot in the finals and had no value but shooting. Or a guy who was getting 11 or 12 minutes or going 1-1 in 14 minutes and having games where he played 4 minutes who was replaced by Delonte who looks solid every time I see him this year.

Its just...standard offseason moves. Not "This is a whle new team" moves.

Yea, but the Mavs lost their 2nd best player and replaced him with nobody.

And you answer your own question. You can't remember it because its never happened. LOL....the 66 game schedule and old age of this team...combined with losing the 2nd best player easily explains what happened with this team this year.

Give this team a normal 82 game schedule and it would be a 50 win team if remotely healthy.

Of course you are going to see a marginal drop off in play given all the circumstances.

I just don't understand why people are acting like its shocking. :wtf:

[DMAVS41]

Simple quesiton...if the Mavs arent a similar team at all. Just...totally different team...

What are the Clippers?

All these claims are is being dramatic. Nothing the Mavs did this offseason was even worth coverage aside from letting Chandler go.

We aren't talking about the Clippers.

Are you really this dense that you want to ignore what is actually going on?

They aren't a similar team because they lost their 2nd best player, incorporated a number of new players, were often injured, a year older for everyone, Dirk was hurt the first month....and oh yea...they didn't have a training camp....played a condensed 66 game schedule that couldn't be worse on a team like this.

And the kicker...the player they signed to essentially replace Chandler ended up being a huge negative both on and off the court.

Question...how is this team/year similar at all to last year? Answer...it isn't.

Lets put it another way. How many wins is being a year older, playing a much tougher schedule, having no training camp, incorporating some new guys, losing chandler, and dealing with the Odom situation worth? I mean....the Mavs won 57 games last year. I think its fair to assume this team would win between 47 and 52 games with an 82 schedule.

So at most you are looking at a 10 win difference. How much do you think the above is actually worth?

[Kblaze8855]

Of course we arent talking about the Clippers because if you call the Mavs a totally different team while the clippers actually are...a really different team...you must dial down what you call the Mavs or invent new phrases to describe the clippers.

And how are they at all similar to the team last year? One player aside its the same core with the same coaching staff.

When you have 4 of your 5 key players from the last 2 seasons and the same coaching....its similar. Period.

The 98 to 99 Bulls are a totally different team. The 11 Mavs to the 12 Mavs...is the same team with the same coaching that swapped out 1 player of note and2 role players for arguably better ones.

[returnofthemack]

For anyone who thinks that this Mavs team is the same that was in the Finals last year, tell them they need medical attention. :facepalm

as much as i hate to agree with a heat fan (vomits in my mouth a little) i have to agree.

if the heat look worse now for how the mavs manhandled them then so do the thunder, lakers and anyone else who got steamrolled by the mavs.

the mavs are a year older, lost their defensive anchor and are most likely still coming down from the emotional high of finally winning a championship.

all that being said anyone whos thinking the mavs are going to be a cakewalk this year could be in for a surprise. they can be beat but they could also go on another run. who knows. i just wouldnt count them out so fast.

[DMAVS41]

Of course we arent talking about the Clippers because if you call the Mavs a totally different team while the clippers actually are...a really different team...you must dial down what you call the Mavs or invent new phrases to describe the clippers.

And how are they at all similar to the team last year? One player aside its the same core with the same coaching staff.

When you have 4 of your 5 key players from the last 2 seasons and the same coaching....its similar. Period.

The 98 to 99 Bulls are a totally different team. The 11 Mavs to the 12 Mavs...is the same team with the same coaching that swapped out 1 player of note and2 role players for arguably better ones.


Its not just the players you jackass. Its the circumstances around the team.

The Clippers are a totally different team. And in a good way. That added Chris Paul and got infinitely better. I don't understand the relevance at all.

That would be like the Mavs losing Chandler but adding Howard or something....they'd be totally different and be far better. I have no idea your point.

Its not just about player turnover. Which, no matter how many times you say it, is a factor. A team simply can't just lose its 2nd best player and not feel the impact of it.'

But its more than that...as I and others have said. Its about:

1. Getting older...how many wins is that worth? A year older for an already old team.

2. No training camp / condensed schedule...how many wins is that worth? An old ass team having to play a brutal schedule while dealing with injuries all year.

3. Player turnover....how many wins is that worth? Given the circumstances of the season, its been anything but easy to incorporate new players not only because of the schedule, but because of injuries.

4. The Odom situation...how many wins is that worth? The guy you sign to be the 2nd best player on the team ends up being by far the worst player.

Nobody with a brain could simply evaluate all that has happened this year and expect the Mavs to be the exact same team. And again....we are talking about at most a 10 win difference here.

Even under the best circumstances and a full 82 game season and great health....this Mavs roster would have been expected to win around 52 games this year.

So you are already starting off 5 games worse by any realistic expectations.

And the other thing....do people forget what the Mavs were before the playoffs last year? 20 to 1 to win the title. Teams trying to lose to play us in the first round. LOL

[DMAVS41]

The Lakers from 09 to 10 are a slightly modified team. A team that saw an 8 game drop in wins between those two years.

This Mavs team....going through all the circumstances they have gone through this year. Is more than a "slightly modified" team. And will see what is essentially a 10 game drop in wins that is more than reasonable given those circumstances.

[Kblaze8855]

Its not just the players you jackass. Its the circumstances around the team.

Well arent you emotioal...

And yes...when asked if a team is similar...and I look at it...and one player of note is gone and it has the team coaching staff and key players from the last couple years...

Thats the issue.

Them being better or worse can happen with the same team. It does happen...all the time.



The Clippers are a totally different team. And in a good way. That added Chris Paul and got infinitely better. I don't understand the relevance at all.
That would be like the Mavs losing Chandler but adding Howard or something....they'd be totally different and be far better. I have no idea your point.

Dont understand the relevance?

Simple. If the Clippers are totally different and the Mavs are totally different...but the Clippers are WAY more changed...why are we calling the difference the same?

It isnt. One team is totally different and the other team is something else. Something...less different.


Its not just about player turnover. Which, no matter how many times you say it, is a factor. A team simply can't just lose its 2nd best player and not feel the impact of it.'

Who said they could?

I said its not a totally different team because of minor changes with 80% of the same key players and staff for 3 seasons straight.


But its more than that...as I and others have said. Its about:

1. Getting older...how many wins is that worth? A year older for an already old team.

2. No training camp / condensed schedule...how many wins is that worth? An old ass team having to play a brutal schedule while dealing with injuries all year.

3. Player turnover....how many wins is that worth? Given the circumstances of the season, its been anything but easy to incorporate new players not only because of the schedule, but because of injuries.

4. The Odom situation...how many wins is that worth? The guy you sign to be the 2nd best player on the team ends up being by far the worst player.

Nobody with a brain could simply evaluate all that has happened this year and expect the Mavs to be the exact same team. And again....we are talking about at most a 10 win difference here.

Even under the best circumstances and a full 82 game season and great health....this Mavs roster would have been expected to win around 52 games this year.

So you are already starting off 5 games worse by any realistic expectations.


What are you even talking about games won and lost due to this or that? Sounds like you are continuing an argument I saw you having over Dirk that I wasnt even involved in.

I dont care about the Mavs record and have said nothing about what they should have won by now.

But you arent going to pass off swapping out largely irrelevant role players and letting a guy walk by choice as having a totally different team when teams actually ARE creating totally different teams.


And the other thing....do people forget what the Mavs were before the playoffs last year? 20 to 1 to win the title. Teams trying to lose to play us in the first round. LOL

Which means what?

I think you really are having an argument you had weeks ago.

[SCdac]

The idea that the Mavs are a totally different team is a head scratcher to me. They lost 1 impact player and 3 role players and gained 2 solid role players. Things like that happen to top teams all the time and they arent called totally new teams.

A team that maintains 4 of its 5 best players and its coach its not totally different because of a different 7th man replaced by a younger/flat out better one or a occasional(as in like...4 in 11 years) big shot making role player who was replaced with someone on the same level.

Teams have turned over 9-10 players in an offseason. The Mavs lost one player of real impact tothe league and they losth im by choice. Its just standard year to year roster change. People act like they rebuilt the roster...

It's true... just look look at the Heat from 2010 to 2011.

People talking about new players, the Heat are as good of an example as any, but nobody will ever talk about that. It just goes to show how making the Finals in their first season was an accomplishment alone IMO.

Added:

Lebron James
Chris Bosh
Zydrunas Ilgausakas
Mike Miller
Mike Bibby
Erick Dampier
Eddie House
Juwan Howard

Lost:

Micheal Beasley
Daequan Cook
Rafer Alston
Dorrell Wright
Quentin Richardson
Jermaine Oneal
Shavlik Randolph
Yakhouba Diawara

considering both the incoming and outgoing players, that is much of an overhaul (on the fly, might I add) as anything. Just a completely different team, from the starting lineup to the bench.

[DMAVS41]

Well arent you emotioal...

And yes...when asked if a team is similar...and I look at it...and one player of note is gone and it has the team coaching staff and key players from the last couple years...

Thats the issue.

Them being better or worse can happen with the same team. It does happen...all the time.




Dont understand the relevance?

Simple. If the Clippers are totally different and the Mavs are totally different...but the Clippers are WAY more changed...why are we calling the difference the same?

It isnt. One team is totally different and the other team is something else. Something...less different.



Who said they could?

I said its not a totally different team because of minor changes with 80% of the same key players and staff for 3 seasons straight.



What are you even talking about games won and lose due to this or that? Sounds like you are continuing an argument I saw you having over Dirk that I wasnt even involved in.

I dont care about the Mavs record and have said nothing about what they should have won by now.

But you arent going to pass off swapping out largely irrelevant role players and letting a guy walk by choice as having a totally different team when teams actually ARE creating totally different teams.



Which means what?

I think you really are having an argument you had weeks ago.


Who ever said the Clippers are the same as the Mavs? Never said that.

You continue to talk about only player change. Which is silly.

And what relevance does letting a player walk have to do with how much that impacts a team? Doesn't matter if we traded Chandler, cut him, didn't sign him...doesn't matter. What matters is that we don't have him and the guy we signed to replace him was a huge bust. And its not normal roster change for a team that won the title. Very rarely does the defending champion lose its 2nd best player. And if they do, nobody claims they are "the same team"....

Wins are brought up to illustrate the point.

If you want to talk solely about players. Then that is a different conversation, but a silly one because these players don't play in a vacuum. They get older, they get hurt, the schedule dictates things...etc.

And all of that goes into what kind of team is on the court.

And if you factor in everything...from age to injuries to player turnover to the schedule to the Odom situation. Its fair to say that this team is just not a very similar team to last year.

Anyone that watched them both play night in night out would readily acknowledge that.

And look at the thread title buddy. Its trying to equate the struggles of this years' team with something from last year. Which is exactly the opposite that anyone should do because of all the things I've explained on here.

When you say a team is essentially the same...you would expect somewhat similar results. So I asked you what you think this Mavs team should have done given their circumstances all year. Last year they won 57 and won the title.

What do you think they should do this year knowing what you know? Because if they are essentially the same team like you claim...shouldn't they have somewhat similar results and be capable of the same things?

[Mr Know It All]

The Mavericks aren't even that much worse this year. In a proper 82 game season with training camp this team (even with Odom) would have been a 50+ game winner. They had no training camp with new personnel, their best player was unfit and unprepared after an eventful off season, and it reflected on the entire team early.

Also, the 9 games in 12 nights the Mavericks had, along with injuries to Haywood, Kidd, and West (3 starters) throughout the season butchered their record and made them look worse than they are. Now they are healthy, chemistry is up after booting Odom, and Dirk is returning to great form. In other words, I'd wait for a little bit before writing off this Mavericks team as a first round exit and scolding the Heat for losing to them.

[Kblaze8855]

Who ever said the Clippers are the same as the Mavs? Never said that.

If the clippers are totally different....then arent the mavs...less than that? IF so(No"if" really)...what are they?

Something quite a bit less dramatic.


You continue to talk about only player change. Which is silly.

Im talking about what people mean when they say a team is new. The mavs have for the most part the same key players and the same coaching. You are talking about issues that are in season issues that will always change what a team can or cant do. What the Mavs are going through happens to every team pretty much every year. They lost someone(not their best player though). they swapped out a couple role players from the back half of their roster. They have an injury here and there.

That isnt total change. Thats going from one season to the next.


And what relevance does letting a player walk have to do with how much that impacts a team? Doesn't matter if we traded Chandler, cut him, didn't sign him...doesn't matter. What matters is that we don't have him and the guy we signed to replace him was a huge bust.

Remembering your other argument(which I mentioned you still seem to be having even though I said nothing relevant to it) I believe you were making an effort to downplay chandler. Clear that up if you dont mind.


Wins are brought up to illustrate the point.

If you want to talk solely about players. Then that is a different conversation, but a silly one because these players don't play in a vacuum. They get older, they get hurt, the schedule dictates things...etc.

Oh so...you mean...the season goes from one to the next?



And all of that goes into what kind of team is on the court.

And if you factor in everything...from age to injuries to player turnover to the schedule to the Odom situation. Its fair to say that this team is just not a very similar team to last year.


Not very similar
Anyone that watched them both play night in night out would readily acknowledge that.

And look at the thread title buddy. Its trying to equate the struggles of this years' team with something from last year. Which is exactly the opposite that anyone should do because of all the things I've explained on here.

When you say a team is essentially the same...you would expect somewhat similar results. So I asked you what you think this Mavs team should have done given their circumstances all year. Last year they won 57 and won the title.

What do you think they should do this year knowing what you know? Because if they are essentially the same team like you claim...shouldn't they have somewhat similar results and be capable of the same things?

You would expect similar results to be a given if you never watched the NBA. Ive been watching the NBA in borderline fanatical fashion all my life.

The same basic team can have vastly different results for any number of reasons. A couple twisted ankles and someone who annoys people(Anthony Mason in this case) can take a team from a jumper from the finals and apparant contender status for the next 6-7 years to missing the playoffs the next season with the same core and coaches and rebuilding in the offseason.

That doesnt mean the 02 Bucks were in no way similar to the 01. It means....things happen during a season that changes the outcome even when the same basic players/staff are there.

But being totally different?

No. Its just...a different season with different results despite a similar team. But if all this is gonna be is a long thing about the wording...**** it.

Continue with your old argument I wasnt involved in to begin with. Perhaps the person you should be talking about some of these issues with will pop in.

[BlueandGold]

did u read any of the other responses or know basketball? or logic... also you just agreed with pb..
No I didn't, care to expand on your response or is "you just agreed with PB" considered an actually rebuttle now?

[Hittin_Shots]

No I didn't, care to expand on your response or is "you just agreed with PB" considered an actually rebuttle now?

you agreed that it makes heat look bad. so you certainly must believe it makes lakers look horrible, correct?

[DMAVS41]

If the clippers are totally different....then arent the mavs...less than that? IF so(No"if" really)...what are they?

Something quite a bit less dramatic.



Im talking about what people mean when they say a team is new. The mavs have for the most part the same key players and the same coaching. You are talking about issues that are in season issues that will always change what a team can or cant do. What the Mavs are going through happens to every team pretty much every year. They lost someone(not their best player though). they swapped out a couple role players from the back half of their roster. They have an injury here and there.

That isnt total change. Thats going from one season to the next.



Remembering your other argument(which I mentioned you still seem to be having even though I said nothing relevant to it) I believe you were making an effort to downplay chandler. Clear that up if you dont mind.



Oh so...you mean...the season goes from one to the next?




You would expect similar results to be a given if you never watched the NBA. Ive been watching the NBA in borderline fanatical fashion all my life.

The same basic team can have vastly different results for any number of reasons. A couple twisted ankles and someone who annoys people(Anthony Mason in this case) can take a team from a jumper from the finals and apparant contender status for the next 6-7 years to missing the playoffs the next season with the same core and coaches and rebuilding in the offseason.

That doesnt mean the 02 Bucks were in no way similar to the 01. It means....things happen during a season that changes the outcome even when the same basic players/staff are there.

But being totally different?

No. Its just...a different season with different results despite a similar team. But if all this is gonna be is a long thing about the wording...**** it.

Continue with your old argument I wasnt involved in to begin with. Perhaps the person you should be talking about some of these issues with will pop in.

So you are just concerned with having a semantics debate. The premise of this thread is about saying the Mavs beating the Heat last year is even worse now because the Mavs have "struggled" this year.

And, of course, the proper response is that the Mavs this year are a totally different team at this point. That doesn't mean there are 9 new players or something.

You refer to what "people mean when they say different"....when I've explained to you what "different" means to me and others in this very thread.

Clear up again why it matters "how" Chandler left for your argument. You keep making claims that we let Chandler walk as if it means anything. What does it matter how a player leaves? What really matters is that you don't have him. Please explain because this point literally makes no sense from you.

Downplay Chandler? No. Chandler was the 2nd best player on our team last year. I put him in proper perspective when people start talking about him as more valuable than Dirk or this great player...which he of course is not.

And you fail to see the difference. We just lost Chandler and didn't replace him. That is literally the point. We lost our 2nd best player and failed to replace him at all because of the Odom situation. Now, if we lost Chandler and replaced him with Kaman? That void just wouldn't be there. But because we didn't...its there...and its huge.

But its all semantics. You are just going totally surface level. Ignoring the actual reality. We aren't having this conversation at the beginning of the year. We are having it at the end in which we know what happened...LOL. Like I already said, if the Mavs had been healthy, played 82 games and not 66. Odom played well and didn't cause huge problems. Then I'd say its a slightly different team overall. But that is not what happened...which is why its a very different team. That we got West, but you don't mention that he's been hurt off and on all year. You don't mention Dirk not being healthy until February. You don't mention the lack of chemistry compared to last year. No training camp. A year older players. Brutal schedule The Odom distraction all year...etc. We just didn't have a lot of those issues last year. Which again...is why this team is very different.

All those things have gone into making this team "very different" than it was last year.

If the Lakers had lost Gasol after 10 and replaced him with nobody....are they also just slightly modified?

How about the Celtics losing Ray Allen after 08? Would they just be slightly modified?

You have all these circumstances playing a huge role in what the Mavs are now....and ignoring all of them and claiming that the Mavs this year have something to do with the Mavs last year is absurd.

[R.I.P.]

KBlaze hates Dirk, probably cried the whole play-offs and summer over the Mavs championship. Wants to make Dirk look bad again. :lol

[t-rex]

Lets face it. The 2011 Mavs are not going to go down among the great NBA teams of all time. Ironically they will rank with the 2006 Miami Heat as the two weakest NBA champions we have had this century.

[Mr Know It All]

Ya Kblaze likes to mask himself as an intelligent and knowledgeable person when it comes to basketball. People love his sarcasm and cynicism, but in reality he is very much a blowhard and has many biases which cloud his judgement of certain players, and Dirk is a major one. Some people worship the guy on here, but he really isn't all that intelligent compared to some of the really knowledgeable posters on InsideHoops (For example ShaqAttack).

Even ESPN analysts and most intelligent posters acknowledge here how different this Mavericks team is. Their front court depth was compromised with the loss of Chandler and they lost their 2nd best player (Butler) 2nd best bench player (Barea) and a huge three point threat in Peja. Not to mention the role Deshawn played as a three point shooter and defender. Kblaze has an agenda just like many other posters on here, the guy just can't get over his bloated ego and accept that fact.

[Mr Know It All]

Lets face it. The 2011 Mavs are not going to go down among the great NBA teams of all time. Ironically they will rank with the 2006 Miami Heat as the two weakest NBA champions we have had this century.

Total BS. They were the culmination of a franchise led by Dirk which had 11 50+ win seasons and a Finals appearance in 2006. They were different than that team but the level of excellence that Dirk provided was blatantly obvious. The 2006 Heat were a continuation of their 2005 team which was very good, but they never had the constant regular season success Dallas had.

Not to mention the tough teams Dallas fought to get to the Finals. A tough Portland team in the 1st round, the two time defending champion Lakers who had very similar personnel to their championship teams in 09 and 10 (I guess they were a weak champion too?), the Thunder who are becoming a perennial force in the West, and a Heat team with two top 5 players that crushed everyone in the east that year, including a 60 win Bulls team and a tough veteran Celtics team, both in 5 games.

[DMAVS41]

Ya Kblaze likes to mask himself as an intelligent and knowledgeable person when it comes to basketball. People love his sarcasm and cynicism, but in reality he is very much a blowhard and has many biases which cloud his judgement of certain players, and Dirk is a major one. Some people worship the guy on here, but he really isn't all that intelligent compared to some of the really knowledgeable posters on InsideHoops (For example ShaqAttack).

Even ESPN analysts and most intelligent posters acknowledge here how different this Mavericks team is. Their front court depth was compromised with the loss of Chandler and they lost their 2nd best player (Butler) 2nd best bench player (Barea) and a huge three point threat in Peja. Not to mention the role Deshawn played as a three point shooter and defender. Kblaze has an agenda just like many other posters on here, the guy just can't get over his bloated ego and accept that fact.

I agree, but I don't know what his agenda is. I haven't seen him hate on Dirk all that much or anything.

I'm just not sure why anyone saying this is currently a different Mavs team than the team that beat the Heat in the finals last year would be questioned so much.

You have a good amount of player turnover, losing your 2nd best player in Chandler with no replacement, no training camp, injuries, old age, brutal schedule, and the Odom situation.

I guess he is just looking at it solely from a player turnover standpoint, but even then it is definitely more than "slightly modified" as he claimed.

[DMAVS41]

Lets face it. The 2011 Mavs are not going to go down among the great NBA teams of all time. Ironically they will rank with the 2006 Miami Heat as the two weakest NBA champions we have had this century.

Meh...I don't think so.

Name me a harder road to the title than the Mavs faced last year?

Tough Blazers team that is already been retroactively under-rated. Two time defending champion Lakers coached by Phil Jackson. Very good Thunder team with one of the best players in the league. Then a Heat team in the finals with 2 top 5 players....a team a lot of people on this board were calling:

"so good its unfair to the rest of the league"

The Mavs went through Aldridge, Gasol, Kobe, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, and Wade.

Winning two series, including the finals, without home court.

Name me a tougher road to the title....

[SCdac]

Lets face it. The 2011 Mavs are not going to go down among the great NBA teams of all time. Ironically they will rank with the 2006 Miami Heat as the two weakest NBA champions we have had this century.

I'd take the 2006 Heat team over them personally. SHAQ + Wade + Zo equaled a great defensive and offensive team. Shaq averaged 18 and something which is about the equivalent of prime Bosh in last season's PO's, and Posey/Haslem defended Dirk about as well as anybody. I agree the '11 Mavs were not one of the greatest championship teams out of the last 10 or so. There was a poll on ISH a few months back and most people agreed.

[Kblaze8855]

Seems im a much more interesting subject than I give myself credit for. People love my "sarcasm and cynicism"? For years I was supposed to be the guy who was too serious. Some of you are a trip with these poster breakdowns. I have little concern for what anyone I dont know thinks of my basketball knowledge. 70% of the posts I read on here are made by kids and adults acting like fools to get a reaction.

They can love me or hate me. wont change me. Ive been the same on here for 10 years. Im not changing now. I dont know where all these people are who supposedly love me anyway. They must keep it to themselves.

Got people on here painting a guy who played 29 games and wasnt needed to win it all as some major loss....or a guy who played 25 games and had one shot in the finals and was replaced by a better player. Or a backup guard who was replaced by a better player.

Chandler is the only loss of note and no team in the history of the league was or should be known as not even being similar with such limited differences.

What that makes you think I think about Dirk means nothing to me. Dirk wasnt and isnt even an issue.

I remember this guy told me Dirk was playing way better than id been giving him credit for this season and I could only find me saying 2 things about him to that point...that it wouldnt be a stretch for him to miss the ASG(Which he himself thought) and that no matter what his numbers were hes better than Kevin Love.

Looking for hate where it isnt. Go in looking for it its easy to bend something to look like it.

[jb220]

MAVS41 you just got shit on dude, please just end your pathetic life so I can come *** on your dead little mouth.

[SCdac]

The Mavs went through Aldridge, Gasol, Kobe, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, and Wade.

What city does team Aldridge, Bynum, etc, play in?

It's a team game, one or two players do not make a team. Even a team with a few amazing players... can be far from amazing. And vice versa.

[DMAVS41]

What city does team Aldridge, Bynum, etc, play in?

It's a team game, one or two players do not make a team. Even a team with a few amazing players... can be far from amazing. And vice versa.

They played on really good teams....LOL.

[DMAVS41]

Seems im a much more interesting subject than I give myself credit for. People love my "sarcasm and cynicism"? For years I was supposed to be the guy who was too serious. Some of you are a trip with these poster breakdowns. I have little concern for what anyone I dont know thinks of my basketball knowledge. 70% of the posts I read on here are made by kids and adults acting like fools to get a reaction.

They can love me or hate me. wont change me. Ive been the same on here for 10 years. Im not changing now. I dont know where all these people are who supposedly love me anyway. They must keep it to themselves.

Got people on here painting a guy who played 29 games and wasnt needed to win it all as some major loss....or a guy who played 25 games and had one shot in the finals and was replaced by a better player. Or a backup guard who was replaced by a better player.

Chandler is the only loss of note and no team in the history of the league was or should be known as not even being similar with such limited differences.

What that makes you think I think about Dirk means nothing to me. Dirk wasnt and isnt even an issue.

I remember this guy told me Dirk was playing way better than id been giving him credit for this season and I could only find me saying 2 things about him to that point...that it wouldnt be a stretch for him to miss the ASG(Which he himself thought) and that no matter what his numbers were hes better than Kevin Love.

Looking for hate where it isnt. Go in looking for it its easy to bend something to look like it.


Again you seem hell bent on only talking about player changes that happened before the team even played a game this year.

I guess everything else just doesn't matter.

As usual on ISH...it has to be all or nothing. I can't just be a combination of events.

Sigh...

[SCdac]

They played on really good teams....LOL.

I don't think you understood my question... :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

I don't think you understood my question... :facepalm

Explain it then. Not only did the Mavs go through some of the best players in the league, but they went through the best teams as well.

The Mavs road to the title last year was one of the toughest I can remember....only on ISH can it possibly be considered easy.

Are you not claiming that the teams the Mavs played weren't that great? I'm assuming you are talking about the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat just not being all that great...despite being immensely talented.

[DMAVS41]

I'd take the 2006 Heat team over them personally. SHAQ + Wade + Zo equaled a great defensive and offensive team. Shaq averaged 18 and something which is about the equivalent of prime Bosh in last season's PO's, and Posey/Haslem defended Dirk about as well as anybody. I agree the '11 Mavs were not one of the greatest championship teams out of the last 10 or so. There was a poll on ISH a few months back and most people agreed.

The 11 Mavs would definitely beat the 06 Heat. And for sure beat the 03 Spurs....and 07 Spurs as well.

[SCdac]

Explain it then. Not only did the Mavs go through some of the best players in the league, but they went through the best teams as well.

The Mavs road to the title last year was one of the toughest I can remember....only on ISH can it possibly be considered easy.

The Mavs went through the Blazers, Lakers, etc, would read correctly. The Mavs went through player, x, y, and z really makes no sense, it implies one or two players make up a whole team... I mean, the Mavs also went through 36 year old Marcus Camby, Shannon Brown, Serge Ibaka, and Joel Anthony... and they "went through the best teams"? Isn't that generally what the playoffs are?

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs went through the Blazers, Lakers, etc, would read correctly. The Mavs went through player, x, y, and z really makes no sense, it implies one or two players make up a whole team... I mean, the Mavs also went through 36 year old Marcus Camby, Shannon Brown, Serge Ibaka, and Joel Anthony... and they "went through the best teams"? Isn't that generally what the playoffs are?

Uhhhh. I said both. I listed the teams and players.

I think there is something to be said for not only beating the best teams...but beating the best players as well....who just happen to be on all the teams the Mavs beat.

Again...just a semantics argument. When in fact I listed the teams first in the post you quoted.

[SCdac]

The 11 Mavs would definitely beat the 06 Heat. And for sure beat the 03 Spurs....and 07 Spurs as well.

Based on what, your opinion? Thanks for providing your opinion.

I disagree.

I think the Mavs would have no answer for prime Duncan, especially partnered with Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, and Popovich.

I won't say the Spurs win "for sure" (I'm not that arrogant), but I'd favor both those Spurs teams over the '11 Mavs.

[zizozain]

MAVS41 you just got shit on dude, please just end your pathetic life so I can come *** on your dead little mouth.
:lol

[DMAVS41]

Based on what, your opinion? Thanks for providing your opinion.

I disagree.

I think the Mavs would have no answer for prime Duncan, especially partnered with Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, and Popovich.

I won't say the Spurs win "for sure" (I'm not that arrogant), but I'd favor both those Spurs teams over the '11 Mavs.

The 03 Spurs? Please...Parker and Manu weren't what they were by then.

Its all opinion. Of course there is no way to prove it. I just think the Mavs are a far better team than both those Spurs teams. The Spurs got lucky to face very weak competition those years.

In 03....Manu and Parker just weren't what they would become. A veteran team like the Mavs would have out executed the Spurs to death over a 7 game series. And with Dirk playing like he did, I just don't see how Duncan has enough to do it all by himself.

Same thing in 07....with the size and defense the Mavs played. I just don't see the Spurs having an answer.

And in any close game, the Mavs have a huge advantage with Dirk, as he played the most clutch basketball by far any player has played of this era.

Its all opinion. LOL at you calling me out for my opinion when you just did the same thing claiming the 06 Heat were better. What I do know is that the 11 Mavs were a far better team than the 06 Mavs.....and would match up far better against the Heat in a series as well.

Thanks for your opinion though. I disagree. LOL

[DMAVS41]

MAVS41 you just got shit on dude, please just end your pathetic life so I can come *** on your dead little mouth.

You must be reading a different thread. The only people getting "shit on" are the people that think you judge a team solely on paper and enjoy pretending we didn't just get to watch the entire season unfold.

:facepalm

[SCdac]

The 03 Spurs? Please...Parker and Manu weren't what they were by then.

Its all opinion. Of course there is no way to prove it. I just think the Mavs are a far better team than both those Spurs teams. The Spurs got lucky to face very weak competition those years.

In 03....Manu and Parker just weren't what they would become. A veteran team like the Mavs would have out executed the Spurs to death over a 7 game series. And with Dirk playing like he did, I just don't see how Duncan has enough to do it all by himself.

Same thing in 07....with the size and defense the Mavs played. I just don't see the Spurs having an answer.

And in any close game, the Mavs have a huge advantage with Dirk, as he played the most clutch basketball by far any player has played of this era.

Its all opinion. LOL at you calling me out for my opinion when you just did the same thing claiming the 06 Heat were better. What I do know is that the 11 Mavs were a far better team than the 06 Mavs.....and would match up far better against the Heat in a series as well.

Thanks for your opinion though. I disagree. LOL

I think you're underrating Tim's defense/overall impact, Spurs defense, and the Spurs abilities to score in general.

Spurs had a well run offense, deep team, and were holding teams to 90 PPG both in 2003 and 2007.

I think the Spurs have the defenders to neutralize Jason Terry, and the rest of the Mavs guards that were slicing up defenses.

Mavs would have "out executed the Spurs to death"? I just don't see that against the mid-2000's Spurs.

The Mavs in 2010 lost to the Spurs, and really the only significant piece added was Tyson Chandler. Duncan was only better earlier in his career.

Those Spurs were rolling both going into and during the playoffs and I don't see Chandler effecting a tandem of Duncan and Robinson together. Who does Dirk guard? Robinson?

I called out your opinion initially because it was missing all the above... an explanation of some kind. I appreciate you providing that, "Mavs winning for sure" really says nothing and sounds homeristic.

Parker was putting up a 20+ point game in every series in 2003, and in 2007 was a Finals MVP caliber player... He's had AS potential from the beginning. He started every game in the Finals against a prime Jason Kidd too.

Agree to disagree.

[DMAVS41]

I think you're underrating Tim's defense/overall impact, Spurs defense, and the Spurs abilities to score in general.

Spurs had a well run offense, deep team, and were holding teams to 90 PPG both in 2003 and 2007.

I think the Spurs have the defenders to neutralize Jason Terry, and the rest of the Mavs guards that were slicing up defenses.

Mavs would have "out executed the Spurs to death"? I just don't see that against the mid-2000's Spurs.

The Mavs in 2010 lost to the Spurs, and really the only significant piece added was Tyson Chandler. Duncan was only better earlier in his career.

Those Spurs were rolling both going into and during the playoffs and I don't see Chandler effecting a tandem of Duncan and Robinson together. Who does Dirk guard? Robinson?

I called out your opinion initially because it was missing all the above... an explanation of some kind. I appreciate you providing that, "Mavs winning for sure" really says nothing and sounds homeristic.

Parker was putting up a 20+ point game in every series in 2003, and in 2007 was a Finals MVP caliber player... He's had AS potential from the beginning.

Agree to disagree.

The bold is perfect for this thread. Even though the only player difference of note was Chandler, the way the team played in 2011 vs 2010 was hugely different. Hugely probably doesn't even do it justice.

We went from a team that lost to a good, but not great Spurs team...to a team that beat the best of the best en route to the title the next year.

Which is exactly my point for this thread. A team being "different" is not just about the players. Its about far more than that.

Anyway, I could see 07 being tough, but not 03. I just can't imagine the 03 Spurs beating the 11 Mavs given how great the Mavs played last year.

And at the very least I think we would agree that the games would be close. And if they were, there is just not other way to say it other than the Mavericks would have a huge advantage late in close games.

But whatever. Agree to disagree.

[SCdac]

And at the very least I think we would agree that the games would be close. And if they were, there is just not other way to say it other than the Mavericks would have a huge advantage late in close games.

Dirk may be clutch, but Duncan was a very clutch player too - and in 2007 Parker and Ginobili were both AS calibre players.

In 2003, Duncan hit 3 game winners in the RS, I believe one in the Finals, averaged 23 PPG in the RS, 25 PPG in the playoffs, and won MVP.

Duncan in 2003 was better than any player the Mavs played last year in the playoffs --- and far far better than any big man the Mavs frontcourt had to go up against.

Regardless, the NBA is not a game of "who can out-clutch who". The first 3 quarters matter just as much as the last.

We're talking about 2 championship teams mind you. Spurs went through the 3-peat Lakers, which is quite a feat. Kobe and a weak Gasol (he was playing like crap prior to the Mavs series) just aint the same.

And I'd love to see who 32 year old Dirk guards, between Robinson and prime Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk may be clutch, but Duncan was a very clutch player too - and in 2007 Parker and Ginobili were both AS calibre players.

In 2003, Duncan hit 3 game winners in the RS, I believe one in the Finals, averaged 23 PPG in the RS, 25 PPG in the playoffs, and won MVP.

Duncan in 2003 was better than any player the Mavs played last year in the playoffs --- and far far better than any big man the Mavs frontcourt had to go up against.

Regardless, the NBA is not a game of "who can out-clutch who". The first 3 quarters matter just as much as the last.

We're talking about 2 championship teams mind you. Spurs went through the 3-peat Lakers, which is quite a feat. Kobe and a weak Gasol (he was playing like crap prior to the Mavs series) just aint the same.

And I'd love to see who 32 year old Dirk guards, between Robinson and prime Duncan.


I don't dispute any of the stuff about Duncan. You know from my posts here that I am a huge Duncan guy...despite him destroying the hopes of my team many times.

He was great and clutch...no doubt.

But if we judge off what these guys actually did. Duncan has never had a playoff run even close to what Dirk did in the clutch last year. Dirk literally blew away the field of this era in the playoffs. Duncan in 03 scored 25% of his teams points at 48% efg. In 05 Duncan scored 33% of his teams points at 40%efg. Far below his team averages in 05 and a little lower in 03. I don't have 07 as Parker was the crunch time guy.

Dirk, last year, scored 44% of his teams fg's at 59% efg....and that doesn't even include free throws. Dirk's TS percentage in crunch time last year was 77%.

So while Duncan has been clutch...never near the level of Dirk last year.

Who would Dirk guard? Who cares really. Robinson most likely...Duncan some. Mavs would go zone some. Who guards Dirk? Robinson simply couldn't do it...and if its Duncan then that takes a lot away from him.

And its not as if the Mavs/Dirk haven't proven they can beat the Spurs. In fact, the Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in the playoffs from 05 to 07....the best stretch of Spurs team this last decade. Pretty sure the Spurs win it all in 06 if they beat the Mavs.

Like I said, I could see 07 being tough because of how good Parker and Manu were. But I just don't see 03 at all.

I also think people forget just how good the Mavs were in close games last year. They were near unbeatable in tight games the way Dirk played...along with Terry. And I don't think either of those Spurs teams nor the 06 Heat would be capable of blowing them out.

So that is why I'd say the Mavs for sure beat the 03 Spurs and 06 Heat. I'll say 07 is more of a toss up as you have brought up some good points.

[SCdac]

I don't dispute any of the stuff about Duncan. You know from my posts here that I am a huge Duncan guy...despite him destroying the hopes of my team many times.

He was great and clutch...no doubt.

But if we judge off what these guys actually did. Duncan has never had a playoff run even close to what Dirk did in the clutch last year. Dirk literally blew away the field of this era in the playoffs. Duncan in 03 scored 25% of his teams points at 48% efg. In 05 Duncan scored 33% of his teams points at 40%efg. Far below his team averages in 05 and a little lower in 03. I don't have 07 as Parker was the crunch time guy.

Dirk, last year, scored 44% of his teams fg's at 59% efg....and that doesn't even include free throws. Dirk's TS percentage in crunch time last year was 77%.

So while Duncan has been clutch...never near the level of Dirk last year.

Who would Dirk guard? Who cares really. Robinson most likely...Duncan some. Mavs would go zone some. Who guards Dirk? Robinson simply couldn't do it...and if its Duncan then that takes a lot away from him.

And its not as if the Mavs/Dirk haven't proven they can beat the Spurs. In fact, the Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in the playoffs from 05 to 07....the best stretch of Spurs team this last decade. Pretty sure the Spurs win it all in 06 if they beat the Mavs.

Like I said, I could see 07 being tough because of how good Parker and Manu were. But I just don't see 03 at all.

I also think people forget just how good the Mavs were in close games last year. They were near unbeatable in tight games the way Dirk played...along with Terry. And I don't think either of those Spurs teams nor the 06 Heat would be capable of blowing them out.

So that is why I'd say the Mavs for sure beat the 03 Spurs and 06 Heat. I'll say 07 is more of a toss up as you have brought up some good points.

Duncan doesn't need to be more clutch than Dirk offensively (there's more to being clutch than offense btw) for the Spurs to beat the Mavs. I hope you grasp that. And Dirk being "more clutch" doesn't guarantee anything against the Spurs, even in close games.

The Mavs were clutch against some young teams (Thunder/Trailblazers) and against teams that looked nothing like their normal selves (Lakers/Heat). Not saying it wasn't great for the Mavs --- but none of those teams were the Championship Spurs - with Tim Duncan - coached by Gregg Popovich.

And who an older version of Dirk guards does matter. As mentioned, Duncan in 2003 was better than any player the Mavs faced last season, I don't see Chandler and Haywood effecting him and his production. I can see Duncan in his physical prime guarding Dirk better than anyone in the playoffs last season - and David Robinson,Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson, and Bruce Bowen were solid defenders too. Spurs had all the tools to win.

As for the bolded part, assuming you're talking about the game altogether (not just clutchness) I disagree wholeheartedly. Duncan's 2003 run was better, he did more for his team, and was magical on both ends of the floor and in creating plays for the Spurs. Take Chandler off the Mavs, and Dirk's offense probably doesn't translate to Mavs-wins as much (look at before and after last season).

Put '11 Dirk on the Spurs, and they are no where near as good, put '03 Duncan on the Mavs last season I think they still win the championship.

Duncan lead his team in points, rebounds, blocks, and assists. Dirk doesn't touch the kind of run Duncan had. Dirk had more help, with admittedly a more veteran/experienced squad and a PG who had been to the Finals twice before and lead the Mavs handedly in assists (compared to 2nd year Parker), and a defender in Chandler to gobble up boards and protect the paint.

But I digress, that's probably a different topic altogether (comparing runs), we're comparing teams. Everyone always says that the 2007 run for the Spurs was by far the easiest - yet, you're saying that team would be tough for the Mavs to beat. That proves my point, even the "weakest" championship team of the last decade the Mavs would have a hard time beating.

[miles berg]

Based on what, your opinion? Thanks for providing your opinion.

I disagree.

I think the Mavs would have no answer for prime Duncan, especially partnered with Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, and Popovich.

I won't say the Spurs win "for sure" (I'm not that arrogant), but I'd favor both those Spurs teams over the '11 Mavs.

Mavs are 2-2 in series against those Spurs, its not a stretch to think that adding Tyson Chandler to the mix would have made a huge difference.

Could have easily been 3-1 Mavs had Dirk not gone down with the lone major injury he has ever had in the 2003 WCFs with the series tied 2-2.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan doesn't need to be more clutch than Dirk offensively (there's more to being clutch than offense btw) for the Spurs to beat the Mavs. I hope you grasp that. And Dirk being "more clutch" doesn't guarantee anything against the Spurs, even in close games.

The Mavs were clutch against some young teams (Thunder/Trailblazers) and against teams that looked nothing like their normal selves (Lakers/Heat). Not saying it wasn't great for the Mavs --- but none of those teams were the Championship Spurs - with Tim Duncan - coached by Gregg Popovich.

And who an older version of Dirk guards does matter. As mentioned, Duncan in 2003 was better than any player the Mavs faced last season, I don't see Chandler and Haywood effecting him and his production. I can see Duncan in his physical prime guarding Dirk better than anyone in the playoffs last season - and David Robinson,Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson, and Bruce Bowen were solid defenders too. Spurs had all the tools to win.

As for the bolded part, assuming you're talking about the game altogether (not just clutchness) I disagree wholeheartedly. Duncan's 2003 run was better, he did more for his team, and was magical on both ends of the floor and in creating plays for the Spurs. Take Chandler off the Mavs, and Dirk's offense probably doesn't translate to Mavs-wins as much (look at before and after last season).

Put '11 Dirk on the Spurs, and they are no where near as good, put '03 Duncan on the Mavs last season I think they still win the championship.

Duncan lead his team in points, rebounds, blocks, and assists. Dirk doesn't touch the kind of run Duncan had. Dirk had far more help, with admittedly a more veteran/experienced squad and a PG who had been to the Finals twice before and lead the Mavs handedly in assists (compared to 2nd year Parker).

But I digress, that's probably a different topic altogether (comparing runs), we're comparing teams. Everyone always says that the 2007 run for the Spurs was by far the easiest - yet, you're saying that team would be tough for the Mavs to beat. That proves my point, even the "weakest" championship team of the last decade the Mavs would have a hard time beating.

Well, the 07 Spurs were better than the 03 Spurs in my opinion. The 07 Spurs just had an easier road to the title. Doesn't mean they were a worse team. And the 06 Spurs were better also. A team that the Mavs beat. And I feel strongly that the 06 Mavs were simply not as good of a team as the 11 Mavs.

So that is where I'm coming from.

I never said clutch play means everything, but it meant a lot to the Mavs last year. Here is why. The Mavs were good enough to not get blown out a lot...and they played a lot of close games. Considering how good Dirk was overall and how good defensively we were, I just don't see a lot of the teams we are talking about blowing the Mavs out.

So if you give me a close game with 5 or so minutes left...I think its a huge advantage for the 11 Mavs over the 03 Spurs. Over the 07 Spurs...not as much because of how much better and more clutch Manu and Parker were.

I'm not concerned with who Dirk guards all that much because I saw Dirk guard Aldridge, Gasol, Ibaka, and Bosh just fine. Are they Duncan? Of course not, but we'd have zone, chandler, haywood, doubling...etc. for that.

But again...I can only say what I feel. I have no doubt that the 11 Mavs were better than the 06 Mavs. The 06 Mavs beat a better spurs team than the 03 spurs in my opinion...and came about as close as you can to beating the 06 Heat. And the 11 Mavs were super clutch. So for me, and its just my opinion, I can't see them losing to those two teams.

[SCdac]

I'm not concerned with who Dirk guards all that much because I saw Dirk guard Aldridge, Gasol, Ibaka, and Bosh just fine. Are they Duncan? Of course not, but we'd have zone, chandler, haywood, doubling...etc. for that.

Not only are they not Duncan, they're not even in the same stratosphere. :oldlol:

That's half my point. Duncan in 2003 was not only better than the bigs last year, he was better than '11 Lebron, Kobe, Durant, and every player last year. He was better than Dirk too, at least in 2003, I wouldn't say 2007 but it's really really close then too (considering both sides of the game). Duncan, and the Spurs, faced a zone defense in the 2003 Finals and it didn't phase them much. This is a decent debate that would make for a good thread, ultimately the Mavs were one of the weaker championship teams of the last decade.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

That 2003 Spurs team also needed Steve Kerr to bail them out in the fourth quarter or that series goes to 7 games without Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Not only are they not Duncan, they're not even in the same stratosphere. :oldlol:

That's half my point. Duncan in 2003 was not only better than the bigs last year, he was better than '11 Lebron, Kobe, Durant, and every player last year. He was better than Dirk too, at least in 2003, I wouldn't say 2007 but it's really really close then too (considering both sides of the game). Duncan, and the Spurs, faced a zone defense in the 2003 Finals and it didn't phase them much. This is a decent debate that would make for a good thread, ultimately the Mavs were one of the weaker championship teams of the last decade.

And teams win..right? Well, Duncan's team in 03 was not on those levels. Your big point is that teams win...not players. And outside of Duncan...the 03 Spurs don't scare me...especially in crunch time.

And I just don't see the 03 Spurs blowing out the Mavs. Hell, if Dirk doesn't get hurt in 03 I think that series goes 7 and the Mavs are 50/50 to win.

The 11 Mavs are probably twice as good as the 03 Mavs.

I never said the Mavs weren't one of the weaker teams to win it. So were, without a doubt, the 03 and 07 Spurs...and the 06 Heat.

[SCdac]

I never said the Mavs weren't one of the weaker teams to win it.

Hence this thread.

I think it ultimately reflects on the competition, the fact that the Mavs were weak relative to past champs. Perhaps one of the weakest of the decade.

Regardless of perhaps skewed logic by the OP (I agree the Mavs have changed since then), the premise basically has truth to it.

The Heat were not as good as advertised (half their team has retired since last season), nor were the flailing Lakers of last season.

(and I wont deny it reflects on the Spurs competition back then too, I have no problem in admitting/acknowledging it... but the Spurs did go through Shaq-Kobe which is a one of a kind, proven, tandem)

[SCdac]

That 2003 Spurs team also needed Steve Kerr to bail them out in the fourth quarter or that series goes to 7 games without Dirk.

And the Mavs needed Jason Terry and crew to bail Dirk out at times... that's basketball... that's why I think depth is being underrated nowadays... look at how well it helped both these teams.

[DMAVS41]

Hence this thread.

I think it ultimately reflects on the competition, the fact that the Mavs were weak relative to past champs. Perhaps one of the weakest of the decade.

Regardless of perhaps skewed logic by the OP (I agree the Mavs have changed since then), the premise basically has truth to it.

The Heat were not as good as advertised (half their team has retired since last season), nor were the flailing Lakers of last season.

(and I wont deny it reflects on the Spurs competition back then too, I have no problem in admitting/acknowledging it... but the Spurs did go through Shaq-Kobe which is a one of a kind, proven, tandem)

Yea, but so were Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and Odom. And beating Lebron, Wade, and Bosh in the finals is impressive as well.

The thing is. All the teams the Mavs beat looked good until they played the Mavs. The Heat and Thunder especially.

The Heat tore through the East and had people claiming they were so good that it was unfair for the rest of the league. Then they lose to the Mavs...and now they just aren't that good. The Heat were just really good last year. They won nearly 60 games and they had 2 of the 5 best players in the league. I'd argue they are better than any team the Spurs beat in their 4 title runs.

Sorry...don't see it.

The flip side is then also true. If the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat all play great this year and one of them wins...does that make the Mavs title last year more impressive?

I'd love to see the responses on that. Because those teams aren't different according to some people here.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Miami had the 3 best players in that series, how they lost is beyond me. Besides the refs being in Cubans pocket of course.

:roll:

A Heat fan really complaining that the refs were on the other teams side??

The Mavericks were a different team last season. They were the better team.