Stacked Teams That Didn't Do Much

[JtotheIzzo]

This is not a thread to harp on teams who made an ECF or an WCF but had championship potential, this is a thread for teams who had a ton of talent and didn't do nearly as well as they could have.

First team I will throw out there is the 2008-09 Houston Rockets, obviously injuries were an issue (as they will be for many teams in this thread), but if you look at the rotation this team COULD HAVE BEEN great.

Starting 5:

C: Yao Ming
PF: Luis Scola
SF: Ron Artest
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Aaron Brooks

Back-ups:

PG: Rafer Alston, Kyle Lowry
Wing: Shane Battier, Brent Barry, Von Wafer
Post: Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, Dikembe Mutombo
Spare Parts: James 'Flight' White, Luther Head

Ironically this was one year where Yao was healthy and they ended up 53-29 losing in the second round of the playoffs. T-Mac didn't play in the playoffs and the team lost to the Lakers in 7, but had they been healthy and at full strength all year, I do not think this collection of talent could have been beat.

[LoneyROY7]

2012 Miami Heat.

[wpdougie2180]

This is not a thread to harp on teams who made an ECF or an WCF but had championship potential, this is a thread for teams who had a ton of talent and didn't do nearly as well as they could have.

First team I will throw out there is the 2008-09 Houston Rockets, obviously injuries were an issue (as they will be for many teams in this thread), but if you look at the rotation this team COULD HAVE BEEN great.

Starting 5:

C: Yao Ming
PF: Luis Scola
SF: Ron Artest
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Aaron Brooks

Back-ups:

PG: Rafer Alston, Kyle Lowry
Wing: Shane Battier, Brent Barry, Von Wafer
Post: Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, Dikembe Mutombo
Spare Parts: James 'Flight' White, Luther Head

Ironically this was one year where Yao was healthy and they ended up 53-29 losing in the second round of the playoffs. T-Mac didn't play in the playoffs and the team lost to the Lakers in 7, but had they been healthy and at full strength all year, I do not think this collection of talent could have been beat.

Best team on 2k8 just ask anybody in the $25,000 tourney where the last 4 matchups were all Rockets vs Rockets :oldlol:

[JtotheIzzo]

Best team on 2k8 just ask anybody in the 25,000 tourney where the last 4 matchups were all Rockets vs Rockets :oldlol:

:roll:

Computers will eventually be our masters...

that is hilarious.:oldlol:

[chazzy]

Best team on 2k8 just ask anybody in the 25,000 tourney where the last 4 matchups were all Rockets vs Rockets :oldlol:
Yao was unstoppable

[StateOfMind12]

You could replace Tracy McGrady with Vince Carter on that team. The Rockets planned on trading Tmac for VC near the trade deadline but Tmac ended up getting season ending injury without telling anyone in Houston so the trade never went through.

That team wouldn't even have done well with Tmac. Tmac was a cancerous player for them by then. They were like 20-15 when he played that season but they were 33-14 without him.

Tmac was and still is an immature player that doesn't care or know a thing about winning or teamwork.

[Whoah10115]

Wow. That Rockets team is insanely deep, Dikembe, Chuck Hayes, Carl Landry...lol, the team's best PG was the 3rd stringer....Brent Barry and Shane Battier was on the bench...good shit.

[Bigsmoke]

Might as well throw in the 2007 Suns

[wpdougie2180]

Yao was unstoppable

Combined with T-Mac spin glitch unfair :D

[Xiao Yao You]

The current Knicks.

Similar to when the Hawks added Theus and Moses thinking that would be enough to help Dominique to the promised land.

[Fiasco]

Wow that Rockets team was ****ing sick.

[Owl]

This is not a thread to harp on teams who made an ECF or an WCF but had championship potential, this is a thread for teams who had a ton of talent and didn't do nearly as well as they could have.

First team I will throw out there is the 2008-09 Houston Rockets, obviously injuries were an issue (as they will be for many teams in this thread), but if you look at the rotation this team COULD HAVE BEEN great.

Starting 5:

C: Yao Ming
PF: Luis Scola
SF: Ron Artest
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Aaron Brooks

Back-ups:

PG: Rafer Alston, Kyle Lowry
Wing: Shane Battier, Brent Barry, Von Wafer
Post: Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, Dikembe Mutombo
Spare Parts: James 'Flight' White, Luther Head

Ironically this was one year where Yao was healthy and they ended up 53-29 losing in the second round of the playoffs. T-Mac didn't play in the playoffs and the team lost to the Lakers in 7, but had they been healthy and at full strength all year, I do not think this collection of talent could have been beat.
IF everyone was healthy, in their prime, and and hadn't had any previous injuries thats a very good team.
Yao fell off substantially that year, T-Mac was never the same as he was in Orlando. Alston was getting on and was never great in the first place. Mutombo was 41, Artest was on the start of his downswing, Lowry wasn't what he would become, Brooks hadn't yet broken out (and then swiftly regressed back) and Hayes had an off year (at least numbers wise, his D was probably about where it always was)

Of those players who was genuinely peaking that year? Landry.

It had a lot rotation calibre players but not a lot of exceptional (and healthy ones).

When I think of stacked teams I think teams with a lot of all-star ish (or better) level of talent.

So Boston and LA in the 80's were stacked. 50's 60's Celtics were stacked. Late 70's 76ers were a stacked team that failed to win a title.
Miami last year.
Late 90's Lakers.

But if its depth you want without a title and mostly healthy.
03 Pistons
Ben Wallace
Clifford Robinson
Rip Hamilton
Chauncey Billups
Corliss Williamson
Michael Curry (for some inexplicable reason playing 6th most minutes)
Jon Barry
Chucky Atkins (also playing too many minutes)
Mehmet Okur
Zeljko Rebraca
Tayshaun Prince
(and if you want to count them Hubert Davis and Danny Manning)

Late 90's early 2000s Trail-Blazers
Early 2000s Sacramento

[wagexslave]

This is not a thread to harp on teams who made an ECF or an WCF but had championship potential, this is a thread for teams who had a ton of talent and didn't do nearly as well as they could have.

First team I will throw out there is the 2008-09 Houston Rockets, obviously injuries were an issue (as they will be for many teams in this thread), but if you look at the rotation this team COULD HAVE BEEN great.

Starting 5:

C: Yao Ming
PF: Luis Scola
SF: Ron Artest
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Aaron Brooks

Back-ups:

PG: Rafer Alston, Kyle Lowry
Wing: Shane Battier, Brent Barry, Von Wafer
Post: Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, Dikembe Mutombo
Spare Parts: James 'Flight' White, Luther Head

Ironically this was one year where Yao was healthy and they ended up 53-29 losing in the second round of the playoffs. T-Mac didn't play in the playoffs and the team lost to the Lakers in 7, but had they been healthy and at full strength all year, I do not think this collection of talent could have been beat.

Imagine that team with every player completely healthy, as in-shape as ever, and in their prime. :eek: :bowdown:

[VIP2000]

2003-04 Dallas Mavericks, who got bounced in the first round:

Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Tony Delk
Josh Howard
Marquis Daniels
Danny Fortson

[El Kabong]

2003-04 Dallas Mavericks, who got bounced in the first round:

Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Tony Delk
Josh Howard
Marquis Daniels
Danny Fortson
You look at that and think how the hell could they lose? But that was before Dirk turned into Superman I guess.

[Toizumi]

Damon Stoudamire/Rod Strickland/Greg Anthony
Steve Smith/Bonzi Wells
Scottie Pippen/Stacey Augmon/Detlef Schrempf
Rasheed Wallace
Arvydas Sabonis/Dale Davis

Swept in the first round...
yeah they faced the eventual champs. but still dissapointing. Especially after the succes we had in 2000 (eliminated in game 7 of the WCF). We had Shawn Kemp on the roster as well.. but he was fat and lazy and sucked. Dissapointing. Dale Davis was coming of an All star campaign that year but wasnt that great either. Stacked roster.. but dissapointed heavily.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

You could replace Tracy McGrady with Vince Carter on that team. The Rockets planned on trading Tmac for VC near the trade deadline but Tmac ended up getting season ending injury without telling anyone in Houston so the trade never went through.

That team wouldn't even have done well with Tmac. Tmac was a cancerous player for them by then. They were like 20-15 when he played that season but they were 33-14 without him.

Tmac was and still is an immature player that doesn't care or know a thing about winning or teamwork.
Yea, like Vince Carter wasn't cancerous...

07 Mavs.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Yea, like Vince Carter wasn't cancerous...

07 Mavs.

How is VC cancerous? Please elaborate...

VC was averaging 21/5/5 during the season this trade was being discussed. TMac was averaging 15 PPG.

VC might be viewed on as not giving his 100% a lot of times, but he never missed a game due to injury, he never complained in the locker room, he acted as a role model to younger players, and he's one of the most professional professionals in the game. VC bears no drama to teamates. So you sir are a moron.

[imdaman99]

webber and bibby's sac kings. i blame that choker peja

[ImmortalNemesis]

Alston and Head were traded/waived before the playoffs so they shouldn't really be counted as part of the roster. You're right, if not for injuries that 08-09 team could have been great. They were 10 man deep. They had a dominant center in Yao, another dominant PF in Scola, two elite wing defenders, and Brooks who was a deadly shooter with unlimited range. With McGrady that team had scorers on all 5 positions.

The bench had...

Landry- for some reason Landry as a Rocket always played extremely good against the Lakers. A good energy guy off the bench who could get you 15 points on fast break points and put-back baskets alone. Landry also had a decent mid-range game.

Wafer - he easily had the best season of his career with Houston. Guy was a lights out shooter from 3 and could also put the ball on the floor. Could put the ball in the basket with ease. Too bad his temper got the best of him. It cost him an extension w/ Houston.

Mutumbo - Nothing to be said here. A defensive center who protected the paint and was an offensive rebounding machine. A GREAT center to have off the bench.

Hayes - :coleman:

I had a discussion awhile back with a few posters who thought McGrady would not have significantly contributed to that 08-09 Rockets team if healthy. (:oldlol: - I lol'd too.) Injuries took a toll on McGrady that year. In fact, after his knee surgery he never got back to that all star level we were used to watching. Houston was better without him that year because he was basically playing with one leg. But a healthy McGrady? No doubt in my mind that team would have gone all the way to the finals. It's a shame really. That team had scoring threats all over the place, two 7 footers who could protect the paint, elite wing defenders, scoring AND defense off the bench. One of the most complete teams I've ever seen.

Another 'what if' for Houston. :(


IF everyone was healthy, in their prime, and and hadn't had any previous injuries thats a very good team.
Yao fell off substantially that year, T-Mac was never the same as he was in Orlando. Alston was getting on and was never great in the first place. Mutombo was 41, Artest was on the start of his downswing, Lowry wasn't what he would become, Brooks hadn't yet broken out (and then swiftly regressed back) and Hayes had an off year (at least numbers wise, his D was probably about where it always was)

Of those players who was genuinely peaking that year? Landry.

It had a lot rotation calibre players but not a lot of exceptional (and healthy ones).

Yao didn't fall off substantially that year. He was still the 2nd best center in the league behind Dwight. McGrady though not as good as in Orlando days was still an all star caliber player in 08. (He fell of dramatically in 09. Had a few surgeries after the 08 season including knee surgery and never really recuperated.) Mutumbo was old but still a great center to have off the bench. He was beasting defensively in the first round against Portland before the injury. Hayes didn't have an off year, that was one of his best seasons as a Rocket. Numbers will never tell you what Hayes contributes to the team. Yao, Battier, Brooks, Hayes, and Landry were still in their prime. Artest wasn't. But that team was stacked.

[DMAVS41]

2003-04 Dallas Mavericks, who got bounced in the first round:

Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Tony Delk
Josh Howard
Marquis Daniels
Danny Fortson

Well. Nash was hurt and Finley had declined quite a bit...and of course playing run and gun with no center and no defense doesn't win anything.

Here is what those guys did in the playoffs:

Dirk - 27 points 57% TS
Finley - 13 points 45% TS
Nash - 14 points 46% TS
Jamison - 13 points 51% TS
Delk - Never scored in the playoffs
Howard - 5 points 33% TS
Daniels - 16 points 47% TS
Fortson - Didn't play in the playoffs
Walker - 10 points 38% TS

That team had a lot of offensive firepower, but pretty much everyone other than Dirk sucked in the playoffs. Jamison and Daniels played alright. But that team couldn't stop anyone on the perimeter and had Najera for 11 minutes a game at center.

Offensively stacked on paper? Absolutely. Stacked overall? Absolutely not.

[Bigsmoke]

really tho

that Rockets team wasnt that good. Everybody were either young or old besides Yao.

[rwfletch22]

Payton
Kobe
Malone
Shaq.....Should've won a ring or two

[NickTheQuick31]

Im a huge Nick Van Exel fan but there were 2 teams he was apart of that were fairly stacked and didnt meet expectations:

1998 Lakers:

PG Van Exel (all-star)
SG Jones (all-star)
SF Fox
PF Horry
C Shaq (all-star

Kobe (all-star) dont be fooled by the all-star selection, Kobe was a good 6th man but not even close to what he become.
Elden Campbell
Derek Fisher
Sean Rooks
Jon Barry
Corie Blount
Mario Bennett

Got swept by Utah in WCF, Van Exel and Del Harris were feuding, EC was lost behind Shaq, Fisher was young and EJ was never real great in the playoffs.

2006 San Antonio Spurs

PG Parker
SG Ginobili
SF Bowen
PF Duncan
C Nesterovic

Finley
Horry
Brent Barry
Van Exel
Udrih
Oberto
Muhommad
Marks


Lost to Dallas in 7 in WCSF, Ginobili missed a G7 end of regulation lay up and they went on to lose in OT. Duncan had an average season, he was injured and playing through it the most part, Van Exel's knees were done and he hurt his shooting elbow as well. Parker had a great season but Horry and Finley were starting to decline quickly.

[nashwade]

2003-04 Dallas Mavericks, who got bounced in the first round:

Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Tony Delk
Josh Howard
Marquis Daniels
Danny Fortson

toine was with the Mavs?? holy cow

[niko]

The Miami Heat of the last two years.

[AlphaWolf24]

1992 - 95' Magic

a core group of ..

Shaq
Penny (didn't arrive till 93')
Nick Anderson
Dennis Scott

throw in..

Horace Grant
Scott Skiles
Tree Rollins
Brian Shaw


10' Cavs

Lebron
Shaq
Mo Williams
Antwan jamison
Zydrunas Ilgauskas

[Bigsmoke]

10' Cavs

Lebron
Shaq
Mo Williams
Antwan jamison
Zydrunas Ilgauskas


Shaq and Z = Done
Mo Williams = Bench player
Jamson = destoyed by KG

[CavaliersFTW]

'11 and '12 Miami Heat

[El Kabong]

toine was with the Mavs?? holy cow
Yea, Celtics traded him for Raef LaFrentz. One of the first big moves Danny Ainge made if I recall. LaFrentz was later traded for Theo Ratliff and Sebastian Telfair, who were used to get KG, so it worked out OK in the end.

[iDunk]

2012 Miami Heat.
THIS. :lol :roll: :cheers:

[ImmortalNemesis]

This is not a thread to harp on teams who made an ECF or an WCF but had championship potential, this is a thread for teams who had a ton of talent and didn't do nearly as well as they could have.

Read the f*cking thread and stop acting like 12 year olds.

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq and Z = Done
Mo Williams = Bench player
Jamson = destoyed by KG


Best record in the NBA,
Mo Williams allstar
Big Z still a good 7' with a mid range J
Shaq still top 5 C in the league


and that team won 63 games = Great

[guy]

You could replace Tracy McGrady with Vince Carter on that team. The Rockets planned on trading Tmac for VC near the trade deadline but Tmac ended up getting season ending injury without telling anyone in Houston so the trade never went through.

That team wouldn't even have done well with Tmac. Tmac was a cancerous player for them by then. They were like 20-15 when he played that season but they were 33-14 without him.

Tmac was and still is an immature player that doesn't care or know a thing about winning or teamwork.

When T-Mac did play that year he was also playing hurt. And not just hurt like he always is, but really hurt. His numbers were down across the board. I believe this was the season where he completely blew a layup cause he just couldn't get up that high. Had they had the T-Mac of even the previous year, they would've been much better.

[guy]

The Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley Rockets from 97-98 and the Hakeem/Barkley/Pippen Rockets in 99. They made the WCF in 97, but alot of people were expecting more. The three HOFers were still great, but just nowhere near what they used to be. They also had Kevin Willis and Eddie Johnson too who were once really good players.

[Owl]

Yao didn't fall off substantially that year. He was still the 2nd best center in the league behind Dwight. McGrady though not as good as in Orlando days was still an all star caliber player in 08. (He fell of dramatically in 09. Had a few surgeries after the 08 season including knee surgery and never really recuperated.) Mutumbo was old but still a great center to have off the bench. He was beasting defensively in the first round against Portland before the injury. Hayes didn't have an off year, that was one of his best seasons as a Rocket. Numbers will never tell you what Hayes contributes to the team. Yao, Battier, Brooks, Hayes, and Landry were still in their prime. Artest wasn't. But that team was stacked.
Yao still the 2nd best center yes but there was a huge gap between the elite and the rest at that point.
Despite more minutes he:
Scored Less (more than 5 points less per 36 minutes)
Shot less accurately
Got to the line less

I really like McGrady but in '03 he might have been the MVP, but by that year he shot 42% from the field 29% from 3 and 69% from the free throw line (for a .487 TS%) and injuries meant even if he was giving full effort on D he wasn't as athletic or agile as he had been. The only way he could be considered an all-star was if you were Chinese.

Mutombo was a good defensive center to have off the bench.

Hayes primary impact was defensive. But that year and the next he was too timid on offense which in part was because they had a lot of options, but if you shoot as rarely as he did, then teams don't feel obliged to guard you. It would be fine if he was taking better shots but his shooting percentages (fg,ft,efg and ts) all collapsed too. So it was probably "one of his best seasons as Rocket" only in the sense that it was one of his top 5 seasons as a Rocket (he had 6 years there).

Yao was not playing at his prime level (maybe he would have been if he hadn't been injured but he was).
Battier wasn't at his numerical peak but a lot of that is a reduced role from Memphis so I'll go along with that.
Brooks broke out the next year (and was only ever particularly good for that 1 year).
Landry was remarkable in his limited role.

There's a reason they weren't favourites or even close. It was stacked as I said in the sense of having a lot of rotation worthy pieces (even guys who could be starters elsewhere - especially Landry) but nobody playing at an exceptional level.

(edited to correct typo)

[Xiao Yao You]

Kobe (all-star) dont be fooled by the all-star selection, Kobe was a good 6th man but not even close to what he become.

Made it a year before he actually deserved it based on hype.

[NumberSix]

2004 Lakers

[TheBluest]

2003-04 Dallas Mavericks, who got bounced in the first round:

Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Tony Delk
Josh Howard
Marquis Daniels
Danny Fortson


Wasn't Van Excel on that team too?

[PickernRoller]

2004 Lakers

Too many things wrong with the Lakers that year...but yeah they were stacked. Such a missed opportunity...:facepalm

[Bigsmoke]

Wasn't Van Excel on that team too?

they traded him to bring in Jamison

[ihatetimthomas]

Too many things wrong with the Lakers that year...but yeah they were stacked. Such a missed opportunity...:facepalm

Not in the finals. Karl Malone, while old and not what he was, was the Lakers glue guy. He defended well, was a great passer, and played within the team. When he went down, the Lakers had Slava Medvedenko replace him and that left them with Kobe, Shaq and a old Payton. I think there is this misconception about how stacked that team was, and people really forget Malone's impact on the team and the fact he was out in the finals.

[Kblaze8855]

Offensively stacked on paper? Absolutely. Stacked overall? Absolutely not.

A team starting 4 all star level players with one off the bench is stacked. It just is. You often explain why it didnt work and pretend people didnt see them play but really...barring some kinda injury that keeps the players in question from playing...5 all stars makes a team stacked. Not like it was 5 BJ Armstrong ass all stars. It was 5 people in or near their primes 4 a year or two removed from peak production.

Stacked doesnt mean a team wins or should win. More than one stacked team can exist at a time(there were at least 3 in 04 and 2 met in the finals). They cant all win. Many will be flawed.

But you cant say that team isnt stacked without changing what you know people mean when they use the word.

If Tony Parker, younger Rip Hamilton, Josh Smith, Kevin Love, and Joe Johnson were on one team...its stacked. No matter what else happens those 5 in alineup for one side makes that side stacked.

They may fail. With Mike Dantoni I suspect they would. But they are still stacked.

There are teams that arent even good that are stacked.

Sometimes it just doesnt work out.

But im thinking a fair cutoff is like...4. 4 guys you can expect to make or compete for an all star spot....team is stacked.

You could call the Bulls stacked and their second best player has never been better than the 4th or 5th best player on those Mavs was at the time(not in numbers that season...5 all stars hurts everyones numbers....im talking ability).

They were never gonna win. I remember joking with some Mavs fans at the time about howmany times they might score 130 and give up 140....but I can respect the effort. I think I get what they were going for. Cuban went into straight "**** it..." mode. We need more owners winning to do that and challenge the staff to make it work. They had 3 guys who were seen as franchise players right before or after that season and the most hated on one was a key piece on a title team a couple years later.

The right coach could have made that work I think.

[Shade8780]

2007 Suns
61-21

C: Amar'e Stoudemire / Pat Burke
PF: Boris Diaw / Kurt Thomas
SF: Shawn Marion / James Jones / Eric Piatkowski
SG: Raja Bell / Leandro Barbosa / Jalen Rose
PG: Steve Nash / Marcus Banks

Should've beaten the old Spurs team in the 2nd round but didn't. Maybe if Amar'e and Diaw hadn't been suspended for Game 5, they would've won.


2007 Mavericks
67-15

C: Erick Dampier / DeSagana Diop / D.J. Mbenga
PF: Dirk Nowitzki / Pops Mensah-Bonsu / Kevin Willis
SF: Josh Howard / Devean George / Austin Croshere
SG: Jason Terry / Jerry Stackhouse / Maurice Ager
PG: Devin Harris / Greg Buckner / J.J. Barea

Went 67-15 in the regular season and got knocked out in the first round by the 42-40 Warriors. That is one of the biggest upsets in NBA history. This team steamrolled through the regular season with league MVP, Dirk Nowitzki. Better and smarter than their 2006 Finals team counterpart but couldn't perform in the postseason. If the team had beaten the Warriors, they would have easily got to the finals and would've likely, sweeped the Cavs.

[DMAVS41]

A team starting 4 all star level players with one off the bench is stacked. It just is. You often explain why it didnt work and pretend people didnt see them play but really...barring some kinda injury that keeps the players in question from playing...5 all stars makes a team stacked. Not like it was 5 BJ Armstrong ass all stars. It was 5 people in or near their primes 4 a year or two removed from peak production.

Stacked doesnt mean a team wins or should win. More than one stacked team can exist at a time(there were at least 3 in 04 and 2 met in the finals). They cant all win. Many will be flawed.

But you cant say that team isnt stacked without changing what you know people mean when they use the word.

If Tony Parker, younger Rip Hamilton, Josh Smith, Kevin Love, and Joe Johnson were on one team...its stacked. No matter what else happens those 5 in alineup for one side makes that side stacked.

They may fail. With Mike Dantoni I suspect they would. But they are still stacked.

There are teams that arent even good that are stacked.

Sometimes it just doesnt work out.

But im thinking a fair cutoff is like...4. 4 guys you can expect to make or compete for an all star spot....team is stacked.

You could call the Bulls stacked and their second best player has never been better than the 4th or 5th best player on those Mavs was at the time(not in numbers that season...5 all stars hurts everyones numbers....im talking ability).

They were never gonna win. I remember joking with some Mavs fans at the time about howmany times they might score 130 and give up 140....but I can respect the effort. I think I get what they were going for. Cuban went into straight "**** it..." mode. We need more owners winning to do that and challenge the staff to make it work. They had 3 guys who were seen as franchise players right before or after that season and the most hated on one was a key piece on a title team a couple years later.

The right coach could have made that work I think.

But the players in question didn't perform at the level you claim.

In fact, Nash was just that....hurt. Granted he's a tough son of a bitch and played through it, but he was hurt. Just a fact. He played very poorly in the playoffs. Shooting 39% from the field....nearly 9% off his career average in the playoffs.

And of course I could go on.

We have different definitions of "stacked" clearly. That Mavericks team was offensively stacked....even though everyone but Dirk played like ass...they were still offensively stacked.

Does that make them a stacked team overall? To me...absolutely not. Because they just weren't. They played literally no defense...4th worst in the league...and didn't have a center.

That just is not a stacked team. It just...isn't. But you might have a different definition.

And no, no coach is going to make that work. Improve the results? Maybe...although again...it was a performance issue. Nash just couldn't perform well enough really for that team to do anything in the playoffs due to injuries. At best, if healthy, it's a team that does what some of the Suns teams did. Make the 2nd round or WCF and lose.

Stacked to me is a team like the 11 Heat. A team with 2 top 5 players and another top 20 or so player all healthy. That is stacked. Or the 08 Celtics. That is stacked.

04 Mavs? You have to create a distinction between offensively stacked and stacked overall in my opinion.

[JMT]

1993-94 Seattle SuperSonics

Won 63 games. First top seed since revamped playoff format ten years earlier to lose to a #8 seed (a 42-40 Denver team built around Abdul-Rauf, Laphonso Ellis and Mutombo).

Shawn Kemp
Detlef Schrempf
Gary Payton
Ricky Pierce
Kendall Gill
Sam Perkins

Rock solid bench play from Michael Cage, Vincent Askew, Nate McMillian.

5th in the league in offense, 6th in defense. Best players in their mid-20's, great veteran leadership in Schrempf, Pierce, Perkins.

[RedBlackAttack]

There are some funny ones out there that wouldn't immediately come to mind, like...

1998 Washington

PG - Rod Strickland
SG - Calbert Chaney
SF - Terry Davis
PF - Chris Webber
C - Juwon Howard

Bench:
Ben Wallace
Tracy Murray
Chris Whitney
Lorenzo Williams
Lawrence Moten (lol)
God Shammgod (lol)
Darvin Ham (lol)

I loved this team on NBA Live '98 back in the day. It was like the early-90s college all-star team. Also, this is where Ben Wallace really began to pick up steam, getting his career into gear. Actually, I think the next season was really his breakout year, but just the fact that a future perennial DPOY was on their bench makes this team even more interesting in retrospect.

[madmax]

2012 Miami Heat.

LMAO...:roll:
Knickerbockers stans are on fire

[Kblaze8855]

But the players in question didn't perform at the level you claim.

Every single one of them performed at an all star level. Not having great numbers is just what happens when you have 5 all stars all of them highly regarded due to their ability to score. They will all have off seasons numbers wise. Dirk put up like...what? 21 a game? 22? Probably 8 or 9 rebounds. Doesnt mean he got worse than he was in 03 and didnt regain his ability to 05. It means a grip of scorers sharing the ball makes all of them less productive. Exact same thing happened in LA. Kobe putsu p 24 a game, Shaq has the worst season of his career despite being in vastly improved shape compared to his previous season, and Karl and Gary went from roughly all star level to really really good role players. Doesnt mean they were not stacked.



In fact, Nash was just that....hurt. Granted he's a tough son of a bitch and played through it, but he was hurt. Just a fact. He played very poorly in the playoffs. Shooting 39% from the field....nearly 9% off his career average in the playoffs.

Please dont give me 5 game series numbers as if it shows how good a guy was for 6-7 months. He had bad stretches and great stretches as is often the case in many seasons of even hall of fame players careers. You dont pretend a bad 5 games means he had a bad season I wont pretend that the 25 game stretch during which he put up 16/10/4 on 52% with games of 20/19(31/10 the night before) and 29/11 on the champs on 80% shooting means he had an outstanding one.


And of course I could go on.

You could. There were ups and downs. Walker went from Mavs fans saying he was more important to them than Dirk(believe it or not...I had that argument on here in 04 after Walkers hot start) to him being "garbage". Jamison went from quietly pouting to doing al lstar numbers despite being off the bench. Finley ranged from washed up to dropping 40 and shooting lights out from 3 for like 3 months.

Its just...an NBA season. Always something you can say about why it didnt end it victory. But they were like 2 shots from homecourt in a great west with the Lakers, Spurs, Twolves, and Kings all having periods of flat out rampage. That same team would win 60 games some seasons or 48 in others. Lets both avoid the extremes. They were...very very good....with very very very good talent. Hows that?


We have different definitions of "stacked" clearly. That Mavericks team was offensively stacked....even though everyone but Dirk played like ass...they were still offensively stacked.

The 5 game thing again?


Does that make them a stacked team overall? To me...absolutely not. Because they just weren't. They played literally no defense...4th worst in the league...and didn't have a center.

That just is not a stacked team. It just...isn't. But you might have a different definition.

I have the one we both know people mean when they use the word.

No team has been known as stacked for being well balanced with slightly above average players who just have great chemistry.

If there is one I can remember...its one of the recent Spurs teams. Maybe the Nuggets right after the Melo trade?

Lot of good players.

Usually...stacked means a gang of stars.


And no, no coach is going to make that work. Improve the results? Maybe...although again...it was a performance issue. Nash just couldn't perform well enough really for that team to do anything in the playoffs due to injuries. At best, if healthy, it's a team that does what some of the Suns teams did. Make the 2nd round or WCF and lose.

Stacked to me is a team like the 11 Heat. A team with 2 top 5 players and another top 20 or so player all healthy. That is stacked. Or the 08 Celtics. That is stacked.

So there have been what...6-7 stacked teams ever(at least if we throw out some of the 60s teams when there were less teams so everyone had 8 good players)?

98 Lakers...stacked? 4 legit all star talents but only one superstar. didnt function well as a team. That means they were not stacked correct?



04 Mavs? You have to create a distinction between offensively stacked and stacked overall in my opinion.

If we are trying to take it somewhere needlessly complicated maybe. Im nto sure why. Team has 5 players who can be reasonaby be called all star level. There has never been a situation where a team with similar offensive talent wouldnt be called stacked.

I cant even imagine it. I guess I could work on it and pick and choose shitty borderline stars or something but....cmon. Lets be real here. Like...real life talking about basketball real.

Thats what basketball fans consider stacked. If you choose to redefine it for...whatever reason....nothing to talk about. Once we decide what terms mean in opposition of generally accepted use there is no point arguing.

Im gonna go get some hot wings or something and watch the draft. I dont feel like a whole night of this. Might get a shitty beer like a Bud Light Lime A Rita...

[BlackVVaves]

2007 Suns
61-21

C: Amar'e Stoudemire / Pat Burke
PF: Boris Diaw / Kurt Thomas
SF: Shawn Marion / James Jones / Eric Piatkowski
SG: Raja Bell / Leandro Barbosa / Jalen Rose
PG: Steve Nash / Marcus Banks

Should've beaten the old Spurs team in the 2nd round but didn't. Maybe if Amar'e and Diaw hadn't been suspended for Game 5, they would've won.

2007 Mavericks
67-15

C: Erick Dampier / DeSagana Diop / D.J. Mbenga
PF: Dirk Nowitzki / Pops Mensah-Bonsu / Kevin Willis
SF: Josh Howard / Devean George / Austin Croshere
SG: Jason Terry / Jerry Stackhouse / Maurice Ager
PG: Devin Harris / Greg Buckner / J.J. Barea

Went 67-15 in the regular season and got knocked out in the first round by the 42-40 Warriors. That is one of the biggest upsets in NBA history. This team steamrolled through the regular season with league MVP, Dirk Nowitzki. Better and smarter than their 2006 Finals team counterpart but couldn't perform in the postseason. If the team had beaten the Warriors, they would have easily got to the finals and would've likely, sweeped the Cavs.


Anyone that still thinks that whole Horry stunt wasn't intentional, or planned, is a POS.

[DMAVS41]

Every single one of them performed at an all star level. Not having great numbers is just what happens when you have 5 all stars all of them highly regarded due to their ability to score. They will all have off seasons numbers wise. Dirk put up like...what? 21 a game? 22? Probably 8 or 9 rebounds. Doesnt mean he got worse than he was in 03 and didnt regain his ability to 05. It means a grip of scorers sharing the ball makes all of them less productive. Exact same thing happened in LA. Kobe putsu p 24 a game, Shaq has the worst season of his career despite being in vastly improved shape compared to his previous season, and Karl and Gary went from roughly all star level to really really good role players. Doesnt mean they were not stacked.




Please dont give me 5 game series numbers as if it shows how good a guy was for 6-7 months. He had bad stretches and great stretches as is often the case in many seasons of even hall of fame players careers. You dont pretend a bad 5 games means he had a bad season I wont pretend that the 25 game stretch during which he put up 16/10/4 on 52% with games of 20/19(31/10 the night before) and 29/11 on the champs on 80% shooting means he had an outstanding one.



You could. There were ups and downs. Walker went from Mavs fans saying he was more important to them than Dirk(believe it or not...I had that argument on here in 04 after Walkers hot start) to him being "garbage". Jamison went from quietly pouting to doing al lstar numbers despite being off the bench. Finley ranged from washed up to dropping 40 and shooting lights out from 3 for like 3 months.

Its just...an NBA season. Always something you can say about why it didnt end it victory. But they were like 2 shots from homecourt in a great west with the Lakers, Spurs, Twolves, and Kings all having periods of flat out rampage. That same team would win 60 games some seasons or 48 in others. Lets both avoid the extremes. They were...very very good....with very very very good talent. Hows that?



The 5 game thing again?



I have the one we both know people mean when they use the word.

No team has been known as stacked for being well balanced with slightly above average players who just have great chemistry.

If there is one I can remember...its one of the recent Spurs teams. Maybe the Nuggets right after the Melo trade?

Lot of good players.

Usually...stacked means a gang of stars.



So there have been what...6-7 stacked teams ever(at least if we throw out some of the 60s teams when there were less teams so everyone had 8 good players)?

98 Lakers...stacked? 4 legit all star talents but only one superstar. didnt function well as a team. That means they were not stacked correct?




If we are trying to take it somewhere needlessly complicated maybe. Im nto sure why. Team has 5 players who can be reasonaby be called all star level. There has never been a situation where a team with similar offensive talent wouldnt be called stacked.

I cant even imagine it. I guess I could work on it and pick and choose shitty borderline stars or something but....cmon. Lets be real here. Like...real life talking about basketball real.

Thats what basketball fans consider stacked. If you choose to redefine it for...whatever reason....nothing to talk about. Once we decide what terms mean in opposition of generally accepted use there is no point arguing.

Im gonna go get some hot wings or something and watch the draft. I dont feel like a whole night of this. Might get a shitty beer like a Bud Light Lime A Rita...

Again you just simply ignore the premise of the thread. It's "stacked teams that didn't do much"

Why should we ignore the Nash injury when it's at the root cause of why the team didn't perform.

Now, if you are going to say something like...."if healthy"...like I already did then I would agree that the team was "offensively stacked"...hell, I called them offensively stacked even with the Nash injury.

Its not confusing anything for me because I have a very simple definition of a stacked team. I gave you examples.

If you have a different definition...then great....they are stacked for you, but that does not change my definition.

And you started this "argument" so to speak. Even in my first posted I said the team was offensively stacked. If that is your definition of "stacked"...then we are in complete agreement.

Like I said at the time, and in my response to you, stacked means more than just offense to me and I clearly think of it differently than you or "the average fan"...if they think like you. I wouldn't know.

But I made the distinction very clearly and you still came on here with your post. It's on you....enjoy the beer.

[Kblaze8855]

I think i will but i dont like supporting what bud is doing with their endless gimmick beers. Oh well

[DMAVS41]

I think i will but i dont like supporting what bud is doing with their endless gimmick beers. Oh well

Ever had Budvar?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Budvar_UK.JPG

If you like Bud....it's the best.

[Whoah10115]

Again you just simply ignore the premise of the thread. It's "stacked teams that didn't do much"





I don't understand your argument at all. The Mavericks were stacked. It doesn't matter if they didn't fit, if they were hurt. It's not even a question of them underperforming.



If I put 5 all-star caliber players together, it doesn't matter if they all suck ass. They're all-star caliber players, so I'm stacking my team and my team is now stacked.



That's all it is.

[albas89]

The current Clippers team is pretty stacked too:

Chris Paul
Chauncey Billups
Mo Williams
Randy Foye
Nick Young
Caron Butler
Blake Griffin
Kenyon Martin
DeAndre Jordan

Let's see what they can do, although I don't expect much...

[ImmortalNemesis]

Yao still the 2nd best center yes but there was a huge gap between the elite and the rest at that point.
Despite more minutes he:
Scored Less (more than 5 points less per 36 minutes)
Shot less accurately
Got to the line less

I really like McGrady but in '03 he might have been the MVP, but by that year he shot 42% from the field 29% from 3 and 69% from the free throw line (for a .487 TS%) and injuries meant even if he was giving full effort on D he wasn't as athletic or agile as he had been. The only way he could be considered an all-star was if you were Chinese.

Mutombo was a good defensive center to have off the bench.

Hayes primary impact was defensive. But that year and the next he was too timid on offense which in part was because they had a lot of options, but if you shoot as rarely as he did, then teams don't feel obliged to guard you. It would be fine if he was taking better shots but his shooting percentages (fg,ft,efg and ts) all collapsed too. So it was probably "one of his best seasons as Rocket" only in the sense that it was one of his top 5 seasons as a Rocket (he had 6 years there).

Yao was not playing at his prime level (maybe he would have been if he hadn't been injured but he was).
Battier wasn't at his numerical peak but a lot of that is a reduced role from Memphis so I'll go along with that.
Brooks broke out the next year (and was only ever particularly good for that 1 year).
Landry was remarkable in his limited role.

There's a reason they weren't favourites or even close. It was stacked as I said in the sense of having a lot of rotation worthy pieces (even guys who could be starters elsewhere - especially Landry) but nobody playing at an exceptional level.

(edited to correct typo)

Good post. Even though I don't agree with some of your points (Yao declining dramatically, Hayes not having a good season, etc) I agree with the overall premise of you post. Houston did not have a 2nd player who stood out or that played at an exceptionally high level. McGrady could have been that guy but "T-Mac" was gone after the 08 season.

[MavAlbert]

Ever had Budvar?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Budvar_UK.JPG

If you like Bud....it's the best.


this is not made by the Anheuser-Busch company... completely different... in fact budweiser stole this name

[Nash]

Butler, Jamison and Arenas

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is a cool thread, I'll think of some more after I discuss some teams already mentioned.



Yao fell off substantially that year

I don't really agree, he had lost some mobility making fronting Yao more effective, and he didn't look like he did in '07, but Yao didn't really have a chance to have a prime.

In '09, he was still a 20/10 guy who shot 55% from the field and 87% from the line, a good passer, a solid shot blocker and presence in the paint who blocked 2 shots per game. And just having a guy who was the best post scorer at the time makes a huge impact, which is why he received so much defensive attention, and he was a good passer.


T-Mac was never the same as he was in Orlando.

Yeah, T-Mac was never the same after '05. So what would a healthy T-Mac be in '09? He was only 29, but how much had he lost regardless of health? He did look generally worse physically than he has in Atlanta and Detroit, though.

But if a healthy T-Mac means '08 level? Then I'd still take him on that team, T-Mac wasn't even healthy in '08 and despite the shooting percentages, was still a damn good player.


But if its depth you want without a title and mostly healthy.
03 Pistons

Hard to believe T-Mac almost beat that team by himself, shows how good McGrady was at his peak. His '03 team was perhaps the worst team I've seen a star drag to the playoffs. His cast was Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie years, 310 pound Shawn Kemp, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Andrew DecLercq, Chris Witney and Pat Garrity. :facepalm

Detroit got swept by a less talented Net team, but the Nets did have finals experience, they were competitive vs the Spurs, Kidd was at his absolute peak, and they did starft out 26-9 despite finishing 49-33.


Late 90's early 2000s Trail-Blazers
Early 2000s Sacramento

Portland may have been the most loaded team of the first half of the 00's. Phil Jackson thought they underachieved despite them winning 59 games, prior to that key match up in late February vs the Lakers, both teams were 45-11, though Portland lost that game and finished just 14-12. Despite that finish, they were still a top 3 offensive team and top 5 defensive team in the regular season. And one thing that really impressed me about their defense is how well they contained stars. Shaq, KG, Malone and Kobe were all limited significantly below their normal production in the postseason when they played Portland. The '99 Blazers were already a 35-15 WCF team, and they added Pippen, Smith and Schrempf, essentially added Bonzi, and Rasheed improved a lot.

Rasheed Wallace was at his peak. That was when he was very athletic, focused on his post game and still hit mid-range jumpers rather than shooting 3s. He was also one of the most versatile defensive big men and a top 5 PF. Pippen was still a top 3 SF, still an elite perimeter defender, a very good passer and rebounder, and still a capable scorer and shooter.

Arvydas Sabonis was an inside threat, could stretch the defense with range out to the 3 point line, you could run the offense through him and he could rebound. Damon Stoudamire had been a 19-20 ppg/8-9 apg player on a bad team from '96-'98, and Steve Smith was a very good shooter and scorer. He was coming off 3 straight seasons of 19-20 ppg. He was also very efficient, and raised his game to 17 ppg on shooting percentages of 49/55/89 and 64 TS% in the playoffs. They also had Bonzi Wells as a very good bench scorer and one of the better post up guards, Detlef Schrempf on their bench coming off a 15/7/4 season, Brian Grant on the bench, who would average 15/9 the next year as a starter, and a good defensive back up PG in Greg Anthony who also hit 3s.

That meant they could literally go to anyone in their starting lineup and several players off the bench. Most of their players also had size and could post up, that made them similar to Dunleavy's '91 Lakers in that they liked to find the mismatch and post them up, and they also had good ball movement.

Here are some quotes about them.


"This probably is far more talented than any team that's been assembled in the league. As far back as I can remember, I've never been on a team, other than the Dream Team or an All-Star team, where so many players draw attention. It's pretty scary when you think of the lineups we can play with."


Adding Scottie Pippen to an already talented squad has made the Blazers the clear favorites to conquer the West. - 10/31/99 St. Petersburg Times


As Alonzo Mourning put it Monday: ``Across the board, they're probably the most talented team in the league.'' - 11/18/99 Palm Beach Post


San Antonio Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich calls the Trail Blazers "the most talented team in the league," and Cleveland's Shawn Kemp added, "That team should be illegal. 2/18/2000 Washington Post

imo, Portland had the favorable match ups and talent advantage over LA and should've won. Sabonis could force Shaq to start out farther, forcing him to put the ball on the floor, and Pippen was assigned to Harper, who wasn't an offensive threat, so he was always there to double on the catch when Sabonis was in the game, and Sheed could also help out since he was often guarding AC Green. Kobe also often guarded PG back then, and guarded Stoudamire that series leaving Steve Smith with a very favorable match up vs Rice.

I'm glad LA won because Shaq is my favorite player, but I also kind of feel bad for Pippen, it would've been cool to see him win one without Jordan.

Portland's '00 collapse was the start of all of their problems with them becoming perhaps the biggest underachievers in the league after that. They were a bit older in '01, but expected to be one of the top contenders again, They did start off 30-11 in that incredibly tough West, but finished just 20-21.

But, the one team who may have been more loaded than the 2000 Blazers during that era was the Kings in '02 and '03.

Sacramento was an entertaining team and got a lot of hype for their entertainment similar to Phoenix in the mid 00's right away as soon as they got Jason Williams, C-Webb, Vlade and Rick Adelman. Sacramento kept adding pieces that took them from pretender to contender. They won 55 games in one of the toughest Western Conferences in '01, and the one thing making them a pretender rather than true contender to me was Williams.

'02 was the year when it seemed like everything fell into place. They traded Williams for Bibby giving them a much more dependable and efficient point guard, and ultimately, their best clutch player. Bobby Jackson and Hedo improved a ton, Webber was still in his prime and a borderline top 5 player, Vlade was still a big asset at a position without many skilled players, and Bibby was the breakout star of the '02 playoffs. The Kings didn't have even have Webber for the first 20 games, and they still started out 15-5. Peja averaged 24 ppg on 50 FG%/61 TS% in those first 20 games.

With Webber as one of the most skilled and talented big men who could score and pass with the best of them, rebound pretty well and defend decently, and Peja as one of the most dangerous shooters and efficient scorers, they had a legitimate superstar and a legitimate all-star sidekick. Bibby also proved to be the perfect fit with much of their offense running through the big men, and Bibby being very capable playing without the ball and shooting, but he had true point guard skills as well. He was a surprise 20+ ppg scorer during the playoffs.

How many teams in that era had two 20+ ppg scorers and still had 7 players averaging double figures, and they not only had a transition offense that few could match back then, but one of the best half court offenses, and they didn't have selfish players. Everyone could pass and the ball movement was excellent, it was also big that they had shooters.

Turkoglu already showed his versatility being able to handle the ball and create at his size, as well as the ability to shoot. He averaged 17/7/3 in the 10 games he started. Bobby Jackson also averaged 11 ppg in less than 22 mpg off the bench.

Unfortunately, Peja was injured in the WCSF and not 100% when he did play in the WCF, plus he missed some games. If not for that, they're probably the '02 champions, but like Portland, they also choked under pressure with missed free throws and the infamous air balls. Though their chokejob wasn't as bad.

Despite that, '03 seemed like it could also be their year. The '03 Kings won 59 games despite a lot more injuries. Bibby missed 27 games, Jackson missed 23, Webber missed 15 and Peja missed 10.

Bobby Jackson actually averaged 20/5/4 on 50% shooting in 26 games as a starter and won the 6th man of the year award. They also added another shooting/scoring threat in Jim Jackson.

They rarely had their entire team. Bibby missed the first 27 games, and Peja missed 10 games during those first 27, Bobby Jackson then was out for a 21 game stretch just 4 games after Bibby returned, and Webber then missed 9 games while Jackson was out and didn't return until 4 games after Jackson's return.

With the Kings finally healthy, they finished the season 21-5, but as luck would have it, Webber goes down 2 games into the Dallas series, and they still take an extremely talented Mavs team to 7. And had Webber stayed healthy, I believe they would've won that series, and they wouldn't have faced LA in the WCF again.

[Xiao Yao You]

Not in the finals. Karl Malone, while old and not what he was, was the Lakers glue guy. He defended well, was a great passer, and played within the team. When he went down, the Lakers had Slava Medvedenko replace him and that left them with Kobe, Shaq and a old Payton. I think there is this misconception about how stacked that team was, and people really forget Malone's impact on the team and the fact he was out in the finals.

And none of that matters if Kobe gets the ball to Shaq instead of throwing up brick after brick.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How about the Suns with Kidd and Penny(Backcourt 2000). Injuries affected the team like the 2009 Rockets, but they had prime Kidd, Penny who was still at an all-star level, Cliff Robinson who was a 19 ppg scorer and an all-defensive player, Rodney Rogers who won the 6th man award that year averaging 14 off the bench, rookie Shawn Marion who was already a solid player providing energy, versatility, defense, rebounding and a finisher and Tom Gugliotta.

Kidd had the broken foot, though he did return in the playoffs, but didn't seem 100%, Hardaway was actually healthy in the playoffs and averaging 20+, though Gugliotta had a season ending injury.

They lacked a center and size outside of Luc Longley, but were still an excellent defensive team under Scott Skiles. They were 53-29 despite the injuries and 33-12 when both Kidd and Penny played, but they lost in the second round to the Lakers.

How about the '94 Suns? They started off 24-6, but Barkley and KJ missed some games around the same time. Charles was producing at about his MVP level before his injuries, and though that was the end of his prime, he was still one of the best players. KJ was arguably the best PG in the league and really good in the playoffs, plus they had Dan Majerle, Cedric Ceballos, Danny Ainge and AC Green. They lost in the second round to the Rockets in 7 games, but blew a 2-0 series lead and had a big lead in game 3.

Their problem was defense, particularly in the front court which was a problem vs Houston with Hakeem and Thorpe, but they had more overall talent than Houston, imo and they were the best offensive team in the league.

There have been quite a few when you factor in injuries.


You look at that and think how the hell could they lose? But that was before Dirk turned into Superman I guess.

It was their horrible defense, lack of a center, 1 or 2 tweeners too many ect. Pretty much problems typically associated with Don Nelson being your coach.

A lot of offensive talent, but easy to see why they didn't do much.


Im a huge Nick Van Exel fan but there were 2 teams he was apart of that were fairly stacked and didnt meet expectations:

1998 Lakers:

PG Van Exel (all-star)
SG Jones (all-star)
SF Fox
PF Horry
C Shaq (all-star

Kobe (all-star) dont be fooled by the all-star selection, Kobe was a good 6th man but not even close to what he become.
Elden Campbell
Derek Fisher
Sean Rooks
Jon Barry
Corie Blount
Mario Bennett

Got swept by Utah in WCF, Van Exel and Del Harris were feuding, EC was lost behind Shaq, Fisher was young and EJ was never real great in the playoffs.

Yeah, like Portland in '00, and Sacramento in '02, the '98 Lakers were clearly the most talented team in the league. They really should've only had 2 all-stars(Shaq and Jones) as opposed to 4, but they had more talent on their roster than anyone else.

But that was an immature group, and obviously some feuds such as Del Harris and Van Exel, and Shaq and Van Exel(due to Nick reportedly discussing vacation plans during a timeout of an elimination game. You're right that Jones was usually disappointing in the playoffs, also as the man on the 2000 Hornets during his career season and in a smaller role on the '05 Heat.

But I'm still puzzled at just how badly such a talented team played outside of Shaq in that series.

Shaq- 31.8 ppg, 57 FG%
Jones- 51 ppg, 41 FG%
Kobe- 10 ppg, 37 FG%
Fox- 9.8 ppg, 41 FG%
Van Exel- 9 ppg, 24 FG%
Fisher- 5.5 ppg, 35 FG%
Horry- 4.5 ppg, 36 FG%
Campbell- 2.8 ppg 21 FG%

I mean the team was an impressive 15-7 without Shaq that year, and Shaq was the most dominant player by that point, imo. In some ways, they may have been built more for the regular season due to maturity, their sometimes excessively flashy style, and Jones was known as somewhat of a choker, while Van Exel was more style than substance to me(no offense since you're a fan of him), and Kobe was at that point in his career as well. Campbell was also always less effective with Shaq in the lineup than when he was out and he got to play center and play in the post more. Shaq also typically wasn't as good of a playoff performer in the 90's as he was in the 00's(though I thought he was great in the '98 playoffs), but he seemed like less of a leader in the 90's than when Phil started coaching him.

But for such a talented team to be reduced to that level of play is something that I still can't figure out.


1992 - 95' Magic

a core group of ..

Shaq
Penny (didn't arrive till 93')
Nick Anderson
Dennis Scott

throw in..

Horace Grant
Scott Skiles
Tree Rollins
Brian Shaw

Actually, it was really the '95 and '96 Magic. Both had arguably the most talented rosters in the league. '93 and '94 Magic obviously weren't the best or going to win titles.

'96 is easier to see why they didn't win playing against the 72-10 Bulls essentially without Horace Grant and Anderson and Shaw later getting injured.

But the '95 Magic were healthy and more talented than Houston. But Anderson blowing game 1 really broke them, both star duos played well, but Houston's role players really stepped up, while Orlando's choked. Dream also played better than Shaq at the key moments.

Really, Houston had nothing beyond their top 6 and no big men outside of Dream, and faced multiple teams more talented than they were throughout that run, all without HCA.


Not in the finals. Karl Malone, while old and not what he was, was the Lakers glue guy. He defended well, was a great passer, and played within the team. When he went down, the Lakers had Slava Medvedenko replace him and that left them with Kobe, Shaq and a old Payton. I think there is this misconception about how stacked that team was, and people really forget Malone's impact on the team and the fact he was out in the finals.

I agree with this. Malone's injury killed them. When he was healthy, he was the best 3rd guy the Shaq/Kobe/Phil Lakers had. He made an effort to learn the triangle, and his passing and mid-range shooting made him an ideal fit alongside Shaq, much like Horace Grant in Orlando. And his post defense was a key to their success since LA faced the Spurs and Wolves, similar to why even an older Horace Grant was the best 4 the 3peat Lakers had due to his defense vs Sheed, Webber and Duncan in their primes during the '01 run.

It is annoying when people talk about the Lakers losing with Mallone, because when they lost, they didn't really have him.

Payton was a massive disappointment. He put up pretty good numbers in the regular season(15/4/6), but never really fit in the triangle, and he was shockingly bad during the playoffs(9 ppg, 37 FG%), and the finals in particular(4 ppg, 32%) when Billups also had his breakout series vs Payton completely torching him.

Detroit also matched up really well as it turned out, playing Shaq 1 on 1 worked out well, and Prince defended Kobe very well. But it would have been a closer series at the very least if Malone was even as healthy as he was during the 1st 3 rounds(when he still wasn't 100%).

But Shaq was also a bit past his prime, and Kobe wasn't healthy much of the season and had the off the court issues, though oddly, he was great in the 2nd half of the season before his play fell off in the playoffs.


1993-94 Seattle SuperSonics

Won 63 games. First top seed since revamped playoff format ten years earlier to lose to a #8 seed (a 42-40 Denver team built around Abdul-Rauf, Laphonso Ellis and Mutombo).

Shawn Kemp
Detlef Schrempf
Gary Payton
Ricky Pierce
Kendall Gill
Sam Perkins

Rock solid bench play from Michael Cage, Vincent Askew, Nate McMillian.

5th in the league in offense, 6th in defense. Best players in their mid-20's, great veteran leadership in Schrempf, Pierce, Perkins.

Great example because for a team considered the most talented in the league(rivaled by arguably only Phoenix), to get the best record in the league and lose in the first round or is underachieving far more than most of the teams mentioned, many of which made the conference finals or even the finals.

They were actually 2nd in offense(points per possession) and 3rd in defense(opponents points per possession).


And none of that matters if Kobe gets the ball to Shaq instead of throwing up brick after brick.

Of course it still would've mattered. Kobe was horrible in the series, particularly his shot selection with all of the long contested jumpers vs Prince, and going to Shaq more could've made the difference in games 1 and 4. But that team had a lot more problems beyond Kobe. Kobe was actually the only Laker who really played defense in fairness.

[MeLO MvP 15]

Last years Spurs team was pretty stacked.

[RedBlackAttack]

One of the most entertaining teams of all-time, Golden State's Run TMC, finished just six games over .500 in '91, although they did make it to the second round of the WC playoffs before being dispatched by the Spurs. Such a fun team.

PG - Tim Hardaway
SG - Mitch Richmond
SF - Chris Mullin
PF - Tyrone Hill
C - Alton Lister

Bench:
Sarunas Marciulionis
Mario Ellie
Rod Higgins
Tom Tolbert
Jim Petersen

[magnax1]

And none of that matters if Kobe gets the ball to Shaq instead of throwing up brick after brick.
I don't know how true this is. Kobe played poorly for certain, but they got the ball to Shaq an awful lot. Especially considering how much resources Detroit put into keeping the ball away from him. Kobe really had to shoot if he couldn't get the ball to Shaq, because he and Kobe were the only offensive options on that team by the time the finals came along.

[magnax1]

94 Sonics were definitely stacked too me. They had like 4 players averaging close to 2 steals a game. Nate McMillan averaged an insane 4 steals per 36 minutes (that has to be highest all time) They just had a ton of guys who could put pressure on an opposing offense. They however weren't exactly overflowing with great scorer.

[Xiao Yao You]

One of the most entertaining teams of all-time, Golden State's Run TMC, finished just six games over .500 in '91, although they did make it to the second round of the WC playoffs before being dispatched by the Spurs. Such a fun team.

PG - Tim Hardaway
SG - Mitch Richmond
SF - Chris Mullin
PF - Tyrone Hill
C - Alton Lister

Bench:
Sarunas Marciulionis
Mario Ellie
Rod Higgins
Tom Tolbert
Jim Petersen

It't too bad we only got Webber's rookie year in GS. They were poised for big things.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'll also add the '10 Nuggets. The '09 Nuggets got to the WCF and were arguably the most talented team in the league, they gave the Lakers a good series and beat Dallas despite Dirk playing incredibly well.

The 2010 Nuggets had the same team as they did in '09, but George Karl having to leave the team due to his cancer really hurt them.

Carmelo was playing MVP-caliber ball the first 2 months of the season prior to some injuries slowing him down, it was the best he's played before this recent stretch with the Knicks.

Billups wasn't quite as good as '09, but he had a career high scoring season and was still one of the better point guards. JR Smith was an extremely explosive scorer off the bench, Nene was one of the more productive centers, Kenyon Martin was basically a double double guy and a very good defender and Ty Lawson was a talented backup point guard.

To show how talented this Nugget team was, they trade Melo and Billups and still make 2 consecutive postseasons. But they lost in the 1st round in '10.

Not sure they're stacked, but the 2000 Hornets should've done better than getting eliminated in the 1st round by a less talented Sixer team.

They had Eddie Jones at his peak who was the 3rd best SG that year behind Kobe and Iverson, imo. A 20 ppg scorer who was athletic and a good shooter, plus an elite defender. Easily one of the best two-way players, and he made an all-nba team that season.

They also had a more talented front court than many as well. Anthony Mason was one of the most versatile players and could guard post players or perimeter players, handle the ball as a point forward, rebound and post up. He made the all-star team the following season in Miami. Derrick Coleman was lazy, but very skilled and talented, and still a 17/9/2 bpg guy, Elden Campbell was also a skilled big man and a 13/8/2 bpg player, and Brad Miller was a good big man off the bench.

David Wesley was also a pretty good player back then. The team went into a slump after Bobby Phills died, but they bounced back and finished the regular season strong.

The '93 and '94 Blazers also come to mind as teams who lost in the first round. Not all of these players were in their prime, but none were far removed. They had Drexler, Rod Strickland, Cliff Robinson, Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams were on both teams. While the '93 team also had Duckworth and Mario Elie and the '94 team had Harvey Grant


One of the most entertaining teams of all-time, Golden State's Run TMC, finished just six games over .500 in '91, although they did make it to the second round of the WC playoffs before being dispatched by the Spurs. Such a fun team.

PG - Tim Hardaway
SG - Mitch Richmond
SF - Chris Mullin
PF - Tyrone Hill
C - Alton Lister

Bench:
Sarunas Marciulionis
Mario Ellie
Rod Higgins
Tom Tolbert
Jim Petersen

True, Nelson's small ball lineup was entertaining and better teams were prone to getting upset if they tried to beat Run TMC at their own game. They really ****ed with the Spurs and took away a lot of one of the Spurs greatest strengths(Robinson's defensive impact), by having Tom Tolbert play center and stay out on the perimeter keeping Robinson away from the basket.

Not fully equipped to win a title, but one of the most talented trios in the last 20 years. All 3 were among the top 5 players at their position, and Sarunas Marciulionis was another good and creative scorer off the dribble.

Teams really weren't accustomed to playing at that pace and vs a lineup like that.


They however weren't exactly overflowing with great scorer.

I don't agree with that all. They had a lot. Detlef Schrempf, Ricky Pierce, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, Kendall Gill and Sam Perkins could also score.

Not all were "great" scorers, but all of those guys were good, and some very good.

Plus, Kemp was on the all-nba 2nd team, Payton was already all-nba 3rd team and Schrempf made the all-nba 3rd team the next season in '95.

[magnax1]

I'll also add the '10 Nuggets. The '09 Nuggets got to the WCF and were arguably the most talented team in the league, they gave the Lakers a good series and beat Dallas despite Dirk playing incredibly well.
I wouldn't call the 10 or 09 team stacked. They had Billups, Melo, and some really good role players like Smith, Nene, and Martin.
On top of that, they were beaten by the Jazz quite convincingly without their starting center and SF. Millsap was starter quality by that point, but a front line up of 6-7 and 6-8 players is troublesome for rebounding and defense. Then on top of that, they started an absolute scrub in CJ Miles at SF.


I don't agree with that all. They had a lot. Detlef Schrempf, Ricky Pierce, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, Kendall Gill and Sam Perkins could also score.

Not all were "great" scorers, but all of those guys were good, and some very good.

Plus, Kemp was on the all-nba 2nd team, Payton was already all-nba 3rd team and Schrempf made the all-nba 3rd team the next season in '95.
They had a lot of good scorers, but the fact that they didn't really have anyone who broke down defenses consistently hurt. Kemp did sort of, but his team mates didn't really see a lot more good shots because of it, and Mutumbo around the rim just shut him down.
My point wasn't that they didn't have offense, but that they had a lot of efficient scorers who weren't really great creators in the halfcourt setting. Schrempf might have been the best at that, but he wasn't exactly the ideal guy for that role on a championship caliber squad.

[kNIOKAS]

10' Cavs

Lebron
Shaq
Mo Williams
Antwan jamison
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
They look alright on paper, and they certainly won regular season games. Just that they don't have a dynamics of a truly great team. The skillset of players don't exactly overlap, and some overlapping is somewhat needed when playing in playoffs. All unique players, but not a balanced team.

Damon Stoudamire/Rod Strickland/Greg Anthony
Steve Smith/Bonzi Wells
Scottie Pippen/Stacey Augmon/Detlef Schrempf
Rasheed Wallace
Arvydas Sabonis/Dale Davis

Swept in the first round...
yeah they faced the eventual champs. but still dissapointing. Especially after the succes we had in 2000 (eliminated in game 7 of the WCF). We had Shawn Kemp on the roster as well.. but he was fat and lazy and sucked. Dissapointing. Dale Davis was coming of an All star campaign that year but wasnt that great either. Stacked roster.. but dissapointed heavily.
This is such a shame... This could easily be one of my favourite teams. Yet, underachieved as mofos.


'11 Celtics come to mind too. They had... Just about everything. Yet, got roasted by the Heat which later proved they haven't even had heart left after that... Sad.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I wouldn't call the 10 or 09 team stacked. They had Billups, Melo, and some really good role players like Smith, Nene, and Martin.
On top of that, they were beaten by the Jazz quite convincingly without their starting center and SF. Millsap was starter quality by that point, but a front line up of 6-7 and 6-8 players is troublesome for rebounding and defense. Then on top of that, they started an absolute scrub in CJ Miles at SF.

Not all of the teams mentioned in this thread were truly stacked, but they were about as close as any team in '10. And you mentioning Denver losing to that Jazz team is exactly why they fit in this thread, because it's about talent teams that didn't live up to their potential and losing in the 1st round that year was a lot less than they were capable of since they were the same team that got to the WCF in '09. I wouldn't really call Nene and Smith role players, either, they weren't all-stars, but role players is underselling them a bit, imo.




They had a lot of good scorers, but the fact that they didn't really have anyone who broke down defenses consistently hurt. Kemp did sort of, but his team mates didn't really see a lot more good shots because of it, and Mutumbo around the rim just shut him down.
My point wasn't that they didn't have offense, but that they had a lot of efficient scorers who weren't really great creators in the halfcourt setting. Schrempf might have been the best at that, but he wasn't exactly the ideal guy for that role on a championship caliber squad.

I don't really agree, I think you're underselling them, most of the top teams had less scorers and offensive talent than Seattle. really all of them, except Phoenix who paled in comparison defensively. Of course, Seattle forcing turnovers helped their offense quite a bit.




'11 Celtics come to mind too. They had... Just about everything. Yet, got roasted by the Heat which later proved they haven't even had heart left after that... Sad.

Didn't have a center. Shaq had the season-ending injury, they traded Perkins and Jermaine O'Neal was a corpse.

[AlphaWolf24]

They look alright on paper, and they certainly won regular season games. Just that they don't have a dynamics of a truly great team. The skillset of players don't exactly overlap, and some overlapping is somewhat needed when playing in playoffs. All unique players, but not a balanced team.

This is such a shame... This could easily be one of my favourite teams. Yet, underachieved as mofos.


.


so the Cavs win 63 games and play great all season then lose to the Celtics and all of a sudden it's because there talent doesn't overlap??.....I don't know what that even means??

The team was absolutley "balanced"...Cavs had great shooters , two 7'ers who could rebound and clog the paint....multiple great husle guy's who played great interior defense and Lebron James....

once again you can't say that the 09' 10' Cavs wern't a great team because they lost in the ECFinals...that makes no sense..


team plays great for 90+ games then loses a 6 - 7 game series and all of a sudden they wern't great???


come on..

[Nash]

so the Cavs win 63 games and play great all season then lose to the Celtics and all of a sudden it's because there talent doesn't overlap??.....I don't know what that even means??

The team was absolutley "balanced"...Cavs had great shooters , two 7'ers who could rebound and clog the paint....multiple great husle guy's who played great interior defense and Lebron James....

once again you can't say that the 09' 10' Cavs wern't a great team because they lost in the ECFinals...that makes no sense..


team plays great for 90+ games then loses a 6 - 7 game series and all of a sudden they wern't great???


come on..
You crazy if you think Cavs 2010 were stacked.

Mo Williams = Bench player for Clippers. Alright player nothing more nothing less.
Anthony Parker = Scrub
Antawn Jamison = Almost 34 year old Antawn Jamison as your 2nd option? lol
38 year old Shaq = Yeah, dude retired the next season.
Illgauskas = Retired the season after.

Cleveland were everything but stacked. And if you still insist on them being stacked.. well, then you're just being stubborn.

[AlphaWolf24]

You crazy if you think Cavs 2010 were stacked.

Mo Williams = Bench player for Clippers. Alright player nothing more nothing less.
Anthony Parker = Scrub
Antawn Jamison = Almost 34 year old Antawn Jamison as your 2nd option? lol
38 year old Shaq = Yeah, dude retired the next season.
Illgauskas = Retired the season after.

Cleveland were everything but stacked. And if you still insist on them being stacked.. well, then you're just being stubborn.


Mo williams was an allstar and is not a starter because he is playing behind Paul....

Jamison was coming off a 20PPG 8REB season...

Anthony Parker is far from a scrub...in fact he is a great role player and very versatile..to go along with ...JJ Hickson , Anderson Varajao , Delonte West

throw in Ben Wallace , Shaq and Big Z (who was an allstar the year before Lebron joined)....and the Cavs were absoluley a stacked team....they had many great role players with stars who could create...


they won 60+ games back 2 back and had the number 1 overall seed for 2 years straight....that is a great team....

anyone who says otherwise shouldn't even watch basketball.

[Nash]

Mo williams was an allstar and is not a starter because he is playing behind Paul....

Jamison was coming off a 20PPG 8REB season...

Anthony Parker is far from a scrub...in fact he is a great role player and very versatile..to go along with ...JJ Hickson , Anderson Varajao , Delonte West

throw in Ben Wallace , Shaq and Big Z (who was an allstar the year before Lebron joined)....and the Cavs were absoluley a stacked team....they had many great role players with stars who could create...


they won 60+ games back 2 back and had the number 1 overall seed for 2 years straight....that is a great team....

anyone who says otherwise shouldn't even watch basketball.
None of what you wrote just made them stacked. You're trying to make them look better than they are but they are nowhere near stacked. And Ben Wallace wasn't even there. Z and Shaq were not all stars my man. This was 2010, not 2005, dudes were old. They had one star in Lebron, the rest were not stars at all. And when Lebron left them they went off and showed their true worth by having the WORST LOSING STREAK IN NBA HISTORY!

So much for being stacked. Stop being stubborn and just give up.