Is Kevin Johnson an NBA Hall of Fame player?

[Lebron23]

He was nominated by one of his staff members in the 2012 NBA Hall of Fame Ballot. KJ was one of the greatest Point Guards in NBA History. As the number 1 option of his team he led his Phoenix Suns in the 1989 and 1990 Western Conference Finals. Johnson was also one of the league leaders in assists per game during his prime.

http://www.legendsofbasketball.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tumblr_ln9c8dTzxD1qzbw1e.jpg

[Ancient Legend]

His injuries prevent him from being in the HOF. Had he had a couple of more full seasons of 19/10 he would have gotten in.

[Lebron23]

His injuries prevent him from being in the HOF. Had he had a couple of more full seasons of 19/10 he would have gotten in.


His contemporaries and rival Tim Hardaway is also nominated. I love to see these 2 elite Point Guards in the 2012 NBA Hall of Fame. Mayor Johnson visited the Philippines back in the 1990's. Prime KJ would be the best PG in the NBA today.

[Whoah10115]

Absolutely.



Top 10 all-time. Better peak and prime and career than Tim Hardaway.

[Ancient Legend]

Absolutely.



Top 10 all-time. Better peak and prime and career than Tim Hardaway.

I'm a Suns homer but I don't think he's a top 10 PG all of time, top-10 peak maybe.

For overall career and achievements, these were better:

Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
Nate Archibald

[Whoah10115]

I'm a Suns homer but I don't think he's a top 10 PG all of time, top-10 peak maybe.

For overall career and achievements, these were better:

Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
Nate Archibald




I can respect that. But I wouldn't have Tiny on my list. I'd have KJ at #10.




Where do you have him?

[JellyBean]

Oh yeah. KJ was legit. In his 11 seasons with the Suns, KJ was an All-Star three times and an All-NBA Second Team member four times. Oh yeah. I can see KJ in the HOF.

[L.Kizzle]

Absolutely.



Top 10 all-time. Better peak and prime and career than Tim Hardaway.
You sure, they are about even.

[Ancient Legend]

I can respect that. But I wouldn't have Tiny on my list. I'd have KJ at #10.




Where do you have him?

Archibald had like 5 elite seasons. Besides he won a chip, and had more all star games than KJ or Tim, and was selected to the 50 greatest players list.

I have KJ at 11, Tim at 12th.

[Whoah10115]

Archibald had like 5 elite seasons. Besides he won a chip, and had more all star games than KJ or Tim, and was selected to the 50 greatest players list.

I have KJ at 11, Tim at 12th.




I know. That's a pretty good list. I'd switch KJ and Tiny, but that's cool.



But the All-Star games don't matter to me. I would have had KJ twice on the 3rd Team, thrice on the 2nd Team, and 1st Team in 94.

[Flagrant 2]

Jerry West

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Um, no. And seriously doubt he ever does.

[SleepyCorpse]

if Reggie Miler gets in , tbh its hard to keep people out.

[Whoah10115]

Um, no. And seriously doubt he ever does.



Um, yes.

[I.R.Beast]

if Reggie Miler gets in , tbh its hard to keep people out.

i agree with this.... if reggie gets in then you gotta let just about everyone in.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Reggie has longevity on his side. Kevin Johnson doesn't. If Kevin Johnson sscored 25k points, he'd be in too. Or was number 1 forever in 3 pointers, he'd be in too. But he aint.

All Kevin Johnson has is a high APG. That's it. He's 18th on the all time list in APG. (And he will passed shortly by several others such as Paul and Deron Williams... maybe even some other guys like John Wall....)

He has made 3 all-star teams. No rings. No first team all-nbas.

[L.Kizzle]

i agree with this.... if reggie gets in then you gotta let just about everyone in.
Who's Kevin Johnson again ... Cats in Sacramento don't even know he played ball probably. Hell, homie in Sac Town Mitch Richmond was on his level.

Everyone knows Reggie.

[bingoa]

Who's Kevin Johnson again ... Cats in Sacramento don't even know he played ball probably. Hell, homie in Sac Town Mitch Richmond was on his level.

Everyone knows Reggie.
Exactly.

It's a popularity contest, career stats aren't everything in the HOF

[L.Kizzle]

Exactly.

It's a popularity contest, career stats aren't everything in the HOF
No, there is a reason we all know Reggie. What reason did KJ give us to remember him by, a dunk over Hakeem?

[Dragonyeuw]

No first team all-nbas.

Not sure that should be counted against him though. He had a couple of guys named Jordan and Stockton being voted over him.

Beyond that he had a few elite seasons, but not sure he otherwise did enough to get in. In terms of peak play though, he was an amazing point guard.

[TheBigVeto]

If Rodman made it, anyone can make it.

[Lebron23]

If Rodman made it, anyone can make it.


THIS

[DCL]

KJ was legit all-star level, but that's it. not HOF.

[Owl]

Absolutely.



Top 10 all-time. Better peak and prime and career than Tim Hardaway.
You sure, they are about even.
I don't think advanced stats are perfect but they are useful, and at very least remind you to take into account stuff like shooting %s and turnovers which are often ignored.

Johnson's PER (and Win Shares) are significantly above Hardaway and a large part of that is that he shot a lot more accurately (fg% .493, ts% .585 to .431 and .531).

Johnson was a very high percentage shooter for a high usage point guard (frankly he was an efficient scorer regardless of position).

Mark Price is probably the best comp for Johnson (they played together in Cleveland briefly), different styles but both super efficient scorers but also still good passers, both struggled with injuries both would have had more acclaim/awards if they hadn't played in the same era as Magic and Stockton (as well as the already mentioned Hardaway). Johnson lasted a little better is probably the main difference.

Of course Johnson was all-star level, he would have had more appearances but for injuries (not specific games that he missed and was replaced, just that he made more all NBA teams than he did All-Star games), HOF I'd guess he's borderline but given some of the recent inductions he should be in.

[NugzHeat3]

Probably not. He hasn't had that much of an illustrious career because of injuries. He's a HOFer in terms of ability though. Peak wise, I consider him better than a first ballot guy like Stockton.

As for KJ vs Tim, they're on the same tier to me but I'd take KJ because I wouldn't have to worry about him settling as much. I can't see Riley calling KJ out for his shot selection. KJ had an attack first mentality that I'm a fan of and he only settled when the defense sagged off of him.

But I think Tim's more decorated in terms of whe he achieved (finishing 4th in MVP voting, led to a team to 60+ as the best player, made first team All-NBA).

[jlip]

I don't think so. As has been mentioned, he was definitely a hall of fame talent, but didn't have a hall of fame career. This was greatly due to injury though.

[Nashty]

In his prime 9 playoff years in 92 games he was averaging 21 points, 10 assists, 4 rebounds on 47% shooting and was twice in WCF and once in big finals, I think he is.

[Owl]

Probably not. He hasn't had that much of an illustrious career because of injuries. He's a HOFer in terms of ability though. Peak wise, I consider him better than a first ballot guy like Stockton.

As for KJ vs Tim, they're on the same tier to me but I'd take KJ because I wouldn't have to worry about him settling as much. I can't see Riley calling KJ out for his shot selection. KJ had an attack first mentality that I'm a fan of and he only settled when the defense sagged off of him.

But I think Tim's more decorated in terms of whe he achieved (finishing 4th in MVP voting, led to a team to 60+ as the best player, made first team All-NBA).
I think Hardaway's being more decorated has a lot to do with timing though. 3 consecutive All-NBA second teams behind MJ and Magic is nothing to be sniffed at (plus one further 2nd team and one 3rd team). As for best player on that Heat team, he was more of a star, more skilled perhaps and played more (than Alonzo) but statistically its close (I'd take Mourining) and Zo was a much, much better defender. Even if you prefer Tim Bug's entangiables/leadership I can't see how that puts Timmy ahead.

As before, he's not what I think of when I think HOF, he's definitely at the borderline but I think given that Miller and Rodman are in (and his peak is so much better than theirs) I'd find it hard to deny him.

[kurt_rambis]

if chris mullin is, then KJ most definitely is

but the basketball HOF is so useless it's not really worth arguing about. some women's assistant coach from the 1956 portuguese olympic team will get in before a top 10 NBA point guard

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

if chris mullin is, then KJ most definitely is

Chris Mullin was a 5 time all-star. (That's two more than KJ)
He has a first team all-nba award. (That's 1 more than KJ)
He was a Gold Medalist on the dream Team. (That's more than what KJ has)
He was a stud at St. Johns back when college meant something. (More than KJ ever was....)


If Rodman made it, anyone can make it.

Rodman won the DPOY year award twice.
He only has 1 less all-star appearance than KJ.
He was a 5 time NBA champion.
Perhaps the greatest rebounder (at least Top 5) ever.....

Posters on this board are just getting dumber and dumber. Look at the stats and history before you spout off bullsh*t. It would be much more worthwhile.

[jlauber]

Most all of these HOF's have become jokes. How in the hell is Paul Hornung in the Pro Football HOF? Or Ray Schalk in the MLB HOF? And I realize that the Basketball HOF is inclusive to college basketball, international basketball, and even women's basketball, but why is KC Jones in the HOF?

I have long maintained that these Halls need to put in some kind of TIER system. Have the merely good players in one tier, the very good players in another, the truly great players in yet another, and then the IMMORTALS (the very RARE truly dominant players) in their own wing.

Don Sutton won 300 games...with ONE 20+ win season (and that was only 21.) Hell, he wasn't even the best pitcher on most of his own teams. Meanwhile, Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean, while only having a few great seasons, were BRILLIANT at their peaks.

And how about Ron Guidry and Dwight Gooden? Neither are in the HOF, but at their peaks, they were among the most dominant of all-time.

Curtis Martin is in the Football HOF, and yet Terrell Davis, is not?

Gola is in the Basketball HOF (and it must be exclusively on his college play...as he was the absolute WORST post-season HOF player of all-time), while Sidney Wicks is not?


I think it would be easier to allow almost everyone into these HOF's, except those that are among the worst of all-time. For those, just create a Hall of Shame.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Unfortunately, the hall of fame is more about accomplishments than how great you were. KJ was a significantly better player than quite a few players in the hall of fame, but that won't matter.

He was probably the second best point guard behind Magic in '89 and '90(some were calling him the best in '90 and '91, though that's an exaggeration. And I'd consider KJ the best point guard in '92 and '94.

He had a lot of talent around him in Phoenix, but he raised his game in the playoffs, and led Phoenix to conference finals appearances as the best player in '89 and '90. He played in the finals in '93 as Barkley's sidekick and was great in the '94 and '95 postseasons.

The guy played on winning teams for years and as a star player. Phoenix won 55 games in '89, 54 in '90, 55 in '91, 53 in '92, 62 in '93, 56 in '94 and 59 in '95.

The '93 and '95 regular seasons were more due to Barkley since KJ missed a lot of games, but in all of those other seasons, he was around a 20/10 point guard. Playing in 3 conference finals for a star is pretty significant.

One of the most explosive scoring point guards in the league with his crossover and quickness as well as his pull up mid-range shot. And he was a good passer, which combined with his scoring ability made him an excellent playmaker.

I'd take him over any PG today except for maybe Chris Paul. And the only point guard from the mid/late 00's into the early 10's I'd take over him besides '08/'09 Chris Paul is '05-'07 Nash.

[Shepseskaf]

KJ is one of my all-time favorites, but he's a standout player, not a HoFer.

[NugzHeat3]

I think Hardaway's being more decorated has a lot to do with timing though. 3 consecutive All-NBA second teams behind MJ and Magic is nothing to be sniffed at (plus one further 2nd team and one 3rd team). As for best player on that Heat team, he was more of a star, more skilled perhaps and played more (than Alonzo) but statistically its close (I'd take Mourining) and Zo was a much, much better defender. Even if you prefer Tim Bug's entangiables/leadership I can't see how that puts Timmy ahead.

As before, he's not what I think of when I think HOF, he's definitely at the borderline but I think given that Miller and Rodman are in (and his peak is so much better than theirs) I'd find it hard to deny him.
Competition is a good point that I forgot to consider, can't see Tim making first team with Magic in there.

As for Zo being the best player or the MVP, I disagree and I think it's a bit of a revisionist line of thinking. Pat Riley made the case for him as the MVP of the league that year and teammates like like PJ Brown considered him the MVP of the team. In a conventional line of thinking, Zo should be the best player since like you stated he was much more impactful on defense, a franchise anchoring big man but he was a bit too flawed to really be a leader or MVP at that point. Hardaway had flaws too such as his shot selection but he was a leader, no fear at all, had a strong temperament and that's what made him such a great go to guy down the stretch. There were quite a few games he took over that year. Zo wasn't a reliable scorer at all in 1997 and there were quite a few guys that were either afraid to shoot down the stretch or simply weren't able to create on their own. Zo didn't quite have a polished game yet and had quite a few issues controlling his emotions at the point and it's evident in the playoff series vs Chicago where Rodman rattled him and got into his head.

Also, his stats don't quite look good but a lot of that has to do with the walk it up offense the Heat had so he didn't have as much opportunities in transition or to push the tempo like a guy like Kevin Johnson would on the Suns. The offense actually catered to Zo's game since they fed the post quite a bit and when he'd get double teamed or end up not being able to create a good shot, he'd kick the ball out looking for the perimeter to bail him out which meant they had to force a lot of bad shots as well since the clock was on its way down at that point. That's partly why Tim's FG% is a bit low.

Here's a piece on him where he gets praised by Riley and PJ that I alluded to earlier.


His regular-season averages of 20.3 points and 8.6 assists only hint at the hop in his game. This season, under the guidance of coach Pat Riley, the man derisively called Tim Shootaway in Oakland has played the most controlled, unselfish ball of his eight-year career. When Riley awarded him the ultimate playmaking accolade—the moniker Little Magic—the transformation was complete.

"Tim has the same temperament, the same leadership, the same skills as Earvin," says Riley. "He just doesn't have the size. But he plays the game as much like him as anybody I've ever coached."

That high opinion didn't come immediately. Though Hardaway played well last season for Miami, Riley coveted Payton and other, younger guards. Confronted with the salary cap, he turned back to Hardaway, lowballed him with an incentive-laden, four-year, $2.5 million contract and insisted he drop 17 pounds and come to camp at 195. Hardaway did that and more. Buying into a defensive system for the first time in his career, Hardaway became a vocal partner with Mourning, calming the latter's frequent on-court rages, imploring him to play smart, pass more. It's no coincidence that Mourning has enjoyed his most satisfying season. He has worked with other point guards, "but we didn't bond like me and Timmy," Mourning says. "He's bettered my game."

Hardaway took charge of the Heat in the way players respect most: He demanded the ball when things got tight, and he produced. Against the Bulls in Chicago on Dec. 7, the game was tied 80-80 with 21 seconds left when Hardaway, in the huddle, said, "I don't care who's guarding me, give me the ball." He blew past Scottie Pippen, drove and, as Michael Jordan put it, "suckered me in," then fired a pass to a wide-open Dan Majerle for an easy three-pointer and the first home loss for the Bulls this season. "He's been in the fire every game," says Miami forward P.J. Brown. "He's been our go-to guy, our MVP."

"He's a very, very courageous player," Riley says. "He looks fear right in the eye, and says, 'Get the hell out of my way. I got something to do.' "


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010015/index.htm


Unfortunately, the hall of fame is more about accomplishments than how great you were. KJ was a significantly better player than quite a few players in the hall of fame, but that won't matter.

He was probably the second best point guard behind Magic in '89 and '90(some were calling him the best in '90 and '91, though that's an exaggeration. And I'd consider KJ the best point guard in '92 and '94.

He had a lot of talent around him in Phoenix, but he raised his game in the playoffs, and led Phoenix to conference finals appearances as the best player in '89 and '90. He played in the finals in '93 as Barkley's sidekick and was great in the '94 and '95 postseasons.

The guy played on winning teams for years and as a star player. Phoenix won 55 games in '89, 54 in '90, 55 in '91, 53 in '92, 62 in '93, 56 in '94 and 59 in '95.

The '93 and '95 regular seasons were more due to Barkley since KJ missed a lot of games, but in all of those other seasons, he was around a 20/10 point guard. Playing in 3 conference finals for a star is pretty significant.

One of the most explosive scoring point guards in the league with his crossover and quickness as well as his pull up mid-range shot. And he was a good passer, which combined with his scoring ability made him an excellent playmaker.

I'd take him over any PG today except for maybe Chris Paul. And the only point guard from the mid/late 00's into the early 10's I'd take over him besides '08/'09 Chris Paul is '05-'07 Nash.
Agree on the bolded and the majority of the post as well. Peak wise, I'm only taking those two above him.

[L.Kizzle]

KJ was actually underrated on this site until a few years ago, now he's very overrated.

With that said, he's was very good in his primes, he got snubbed a few years on All-Star teams to Terry Porter I believe.

[bizil]

At his best CLEARLY a HOF player. Once Magic and Isiah tapered off, I think KJ was the best PG in the L. Some would argue Stock, and some would argue Timmy. I feel all three have a great case. But I prefer my PG's to be able to run a show like a pure PG AND have the ability to takeover games scoring. Stock could run a team as good as any PG ever. But he couldn't takeover a game like Timmy or KJ scoring a rock. KJ and Timmy had number one option level scoring shit.

[L.Kizzle]

At his best CLEARLY a HOF player. Once Magic and Isiah tapered off, I think KJ was the best PG in the L. Some would argue Stock, and some would argue Timmy. I feel all three have a great case. But I prefer my PG's to be able to run a show like a pure PG AND have the ability to takeover games scoring. Stock could run a team as good as any PG ever. But he couldn't takeover a game like Timmy or KJ scoring a rock. KJ and Timmy had number one option level scoring shit.
No doubt about that, he had the talent. But how about his career? There are plenty of hall of fame talent who came through the NBA who are not in.

Just to name a few.


Lou Hudson
Jo Jo White
Rudy Tomjanovich
Bernard King
Sidney Moncrief
Mitch Richmond
Tim Hardaway

[kurt_rambis]

Chris Mullin was a 5 time all-star. (That's two more than KJ)
He has a first team all-nba award. (That's 1 more than KJ)
He was a Gold Medalist on the dream Team. (That's more than what KJ has)
He was a stud at St. Johns back when college meant something. (More than KJ ever was....)


don't tell me his 1992 olympic gold is a sign of greatness. your mom could have played 20 minutes a game for the dream team and won a gold medal

try making an all-nba or all-star team with magic, stockton, and tim hardaway all playing your position. he's one of only 7 guys in history to average 20 and 10 in a season and he did it 3 years in a row (plus a couple years where he came damn close). and unlike mullin, he contributed to some very good teams that went deep into the playoffs

[L.Kizzle]

don't tell me his 1992 olympic gold is a sign of greatness. your mom could have played 20 minutes a game for the dream team and won a gold medal
You make it seem like they just let anyone on that team.


try making an all-nba or all-star team with magic, stockton, and tim hardaway all playing your position. he's one of only 7 guys in history to average 20 and 10 in a season and he did it 3 years in a row (plus a couple years where he came damn close). and unlike mullin, he contributed to some very good teams that went deep into the playoffs
He only battled Magic for what 3 seasons. Timmy was injured/moved to another conference by 94?

So that leaves Stockton, the only consistent.

[kurt_rambis]

You make it seem like they just let anyone on that team.


He only battled Magic for what 3 seasons. Timmy was injured/moved to another conference by 94?

So that leaves Stockton, the only consistent.

i would actually describe christian laettner as just anyone, but that's not important

like mullin, KJ had a short prime, only 5 or 6 seasons. essentially all of his prime years were spent battling elite point guards. he made the all-nba second team 4 years and the 3rd team once, which is arguably just as impressive as mullin (two 2nd teams, one 1st team, one 3rd team)

i'm personally on the fence about his hall of fame credentials, but there are definitely players as good or worse than him in there, and chris mullin is one of them

[Big#50]

Nope. Not enough of a career. Peak KJ was a mix of AI and Paul. He was ****ing quick and explosive attacking that rim, but had great passing skills as well. Will not make it because he didnt have longevity. I would put him, though.

[L.Kizzle]

i would actually describe christian laettner as just anyone, but that's not important

like mullin, KJ had a short prime, only 5 or 6 seasons. essentially all of his prime years were spent battling elite point guards. he made the all-nba second team 4 years and the 3rd team once, which is arguably just as impressive as mullin (two 2nd teams, one 1st team, one 3rd team)

i'm personally on the fence about his hall of fame credentials, but there are definitely players as good or worse than him in there, and chris mullin is one of them
Leattner is the college pick, we talking pro's. We could say of the 11 pro's he was the weakest, (career wise.) But that season he was picked, was All-NBA 1st team.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Competition is a good point that I forgot to consider, can't see Tim making first team with Magic in there.

As for Zo being the best player or the MVP, I disagree and I think it's a bit of a revisionist line of thinking. Pat Riley made the case for him as the MVP of the league that year and teammates like like PJ Brown considered him the MVP of the team. In a conventional line of thinking, Zo should be the best player since like you stated he was much more impactful on defense, a franchise anchoring big man but he was a bit too flawed to really be a leader or MVP at that point. Hardaway had flaws too such as his shot selection but he was a leader, no fear at all, had a strong temperament and that's what made him such a great go to guy down the stretch. There were quite a few games he took over that year. Zo wasn't a reliable scorer at all in 1997 and there were quite a few guys that were either afraid to shoot down the stretch or simply weren't able to create on their own. Zo didn't quite have a polished game yet and had quite a few issues controlling his emotions at the point and it's evident in the playoff series vs Chicago where Rodman rattled him and got into his head.

Also, his stats don't quite look good but a lot of that has to do with the walk it up offense the Heat had so he didn't have as much opportunities in transition or to push the tempo like a guy like Kevin Johnson would on the Suns. The offense actually catered to Zo's game since they fed the post quite a bit and when he'd get double teamed or end up not being able to create a good shot, he'd kick the ball out looking for the perimeter to bail him out which meant they had to force a lot of bad shots as well since the clock was on its way down at that point. That's partly why Tim's FG% is a bit low.

Here's a piece on him where he gets praised by Riley and PJ that I alluded to earlier.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010015/index.htm

Really good post as usual, very accurate assessment of Zo's game, and that's remarkably high praise from Riley about Hardaway. The strongest argument for Zo's value to the team is that Miami won due to their defense first and foremost, and despite Tim leading them to an 11-4 record without Zo, their defense wasn't the same without him. So even though Riley's teams post-LA were usually very good defensively, he was still a huge key to it. But to back up your point about Zo essentially being the 1st option hurting Hardaway's offensive numbers, Tim averaged 24/9 with Zo out of the lineup. Zo was at his best in '99 and '00 as we've mentioned in the past. 2000 would be the absolute best I've seen him play, but Hardaway was older and really struggled with injuries, while Mashburn struggled to play up to his potential in that offense. It's too bad 2000 ended Zo's prime prematurely, they were set to be easily the most talented team in the East after acquiring Eddie Jones coming off his best season, Anthony Mason who made the '01 all-star game and Brian Grant who averaged 15/9 playing out of position at center. With names like that as well as Bruce Bowen emerging as a rotation player and stopper, they'd have an incredible defensive lineup if Zo was around coming off back to back DPOY awards. And Riley's teams were always good to great after LA as it is. They actually improved defensively in '01 finishing top 4, and they still won 50 games. I can't see them getting any worse adding Zo which would also move Brian Grant back to his natural position. Plus, it probably would've helped their rebounding and they were a poor rebounding team.

The worst example of Zo being rattled in the playoffs was the '96 1st round series vs Chicago. The last game made his numbers look better when it wasn't really competitive and he wasn't really dominating, but for a lot of the minutes he was on the floor, he didn't stand out as playing better than Luc Longley. He was constantly in foul trouble, and many of them were unnecessary. I like Zo, but it's remarkable how much he struggled in that series.

Back to Hardaway and Miami's offense, those are really good points. Miami's offense was one of the worst for putting up big numbers. They probably underachieved offensively with guys like Hardaway, Mourning, Mashburn ect.

Remember how much Mashburn was criticized for struggling in Miami's offense? I believe Riley planned to make him the 1st option in '97-'98, but I assume scrapped that idea. And look what happens when he leaves Miami, he becomes one of the best small forwards in Charlotte. Mashburn's "revenge" in the '01 playoffs was a big story that year.

And perhaps an even bigger indictment is that Eddie Jones was coming off his best season in Charlotte in 2000 when he was imo, the 3rd best shooting guard behind Kobe and Iverson. But similar to Mashburn, I remember him being seen as a disappointment when he arrived in Miami.


Agree on the bolded and the majority of the post as well. Peak wise, I'm only taking those two above him.

I might take peak '03 Jason Kidd as well, a much better passer regardless of assists, better defender, could make a big impact on the boards and Kidd at his peak was a good scorer, though it didn't last long. That's why '03 Kidd stands out to me over his other seasons because it was before he lost some quickness and athleticism due to age and microfracture surgery plus it was around the time he was improving his shooting. His one flaw was that he still limited in the half court breaking down a defense off the dribble compared to Nash or Paul, but not as ball-dominant as well.

It's too bad we didn't see more of Kidd with the mix of his athleticism and his improved shooting, outside of the 3, he was also good at pulling up around the foul line.


KJ was actually underrated on this site until a few years ago, now he's very overrated.

With that said, he's was very good in his primes, he got snubbed a few years on All-Star teams to Terry Porter I believe.

How is he overrated?



like mullin, KJ had a short prime, only 5 or 6 seasons.

I wouldn't call 5 or 6 years a short prime, but I guess by prime you mean elite years. But I'd take KJ over Mullin, and didn't have to think very hard about it, and I like Mullin.


No doubt about that, he had the talent. But how about his career? There are plenty of hall of fame talent who came through the NBA who are not in.

Just to name a few.


Lou Hudson
Jo Jo White
Rudy Tomjanovich
Bernard King
Sidney Moncrief
Mitch Richmond
Tim Hardaway

He was a better player than just about all of them, except for perhaps King at his peak, but King's career was affected by injuries even more than KJ's, and most of those guys had less team success as the man on their teams.

[miggyme1]

I cant believe some of yall dont believe reggie miller had a hall of fame career.are yall smoking crack?he was the only player who could toe to toe with michael jordan in the 90's.he was the leader in threes till ray allen just broke it.the only thing the man aint accomplish was win a ring.how da hell yall gone say lebron a hall of famer if he retired today but reggie miller aint?irs stupid.reggie miller aint have not one athletic bone in his body but the boy could shoot from anywhere on the court with hands in his face.good passer.good defense.i dont get it.if lebron has a 19 career and dont win not one ring he gone be a hall of famer so y not reggie?reggie deserved to be a hall of famer and im glad he is

[bizil]

No doubt about that, he had the talent. But how about his career? There are plenty of hall of fame talent who came through the NBA who are not in.

Just to name a few.


Lou Hudson
Jo Jo White
Rudy Tomjanovich
Bernard King
Sidney Moncrief
Mitch Richmond
Tim Hardaway

U are correct! His career as a whole isn't HOF worthy. I doubt KJ will ever get in the HOF. But when people ask me off the eye test who are the top ten PG's u saw play during your days of watchin bball, I would say:

Magic
Isiah
Payton
Paul
Nash
D Will
Stockton
Penny
KJ
Timmy

After Magic and Isiah, the list could be ranked in various way. But for guys I saw with my own two eyes during my bball watchin days, these are my top ten. If I'm going off GOAT shit, then sure I would have Big O, Tiny, Frazier, and Cousy in there. I'm 34 years old, and I'm sure a lotta guys around my age would have a similar list in terms of the eye test and peak value. But unfortunately, KJ won't make the HOF because u gotta have that career resume to back u up.

[bizil]

I cant believe some of yall dont believe reggie miller had a hall of fame career.are yall smoking crack?he was the only player who could toe to toe with michael jordan in the 90's.he was the leader in threes till ray allen just broke it.the only thing the man aint accomplish was win a ring.how da hell yall gone say lebron a hall of famer if he retired today but reggie miller aint?irs stupid.reggie miller aint have not one athletic bone in his body but the boy could shoot from anywhere on the court with hands in his face.good passer.good defense.i dont get it.if lebron has a 19 career and dont win not one ring he gone be a hall of famer so y not reggie?reggie deserved to be a hall of famer and im glad he is

I agree! Reggie is clearly an HOFer and he's rightfully going in. In terms of the great shooters who were great scorers along with it, U got guys like Reggie, West, Bird, Ray Allen, Peja, Ellis, Rice, Dirk, etc. I realize Reggie didn't have a ton of scoring seasons over 20 points a night. But I feel it was due to Indiana's offensive system and where Reggie was occupying the floor. He was EASILY capable of scoring 25 points a night for several seasons. He had the alpha dog gene BIG TIME when it was time take over the game. I just feel he didn't mind playing in the flow of the offense and taking over at the end.

But at the same time, Reggie's all around skills weren't nearly on the level of the other GOAT SG's. So that is a very valid point to bring up. But in terms of impact on a game when it comes to taking a game by the throat in big time moments, Reggie is an icon. And among guards, only MJ, Kobe, and Big O have more career points. With all of these factors, u gotta have Reg in the HOF. Men lie, women lie, but numbers don't!

[Shepseskaf]

No doubt about that, he had the talent. But how about his career? There are plenty of hall of fame talent who came through the NBA who are not in.

Just to name a few.


Lou Hudson
Jo Jo White
Rudy Tomjanovich
Bernard King
Sidney Moncrief
Mitch Richmond
Tim Hardaway
I would put Bernard King at the top of the list of talents not in the HoF. He had an injury-shortened career, but his peak years were so much higher than anyone else not in the Hall.

Plus, he came back from a devastating leg injury to become an All-Star again.

Bernard should be in.

[bizil]

I would put Bernard King at the top of the list of talents not in the HoF. He had an injury-shortened career, but his peak years were so much higher than anyone else not in the Hall.

Plus, he came back from a devastating leg injury to become an All-Star again.

Bernard should be in.

Awesome point! His peak was so tremendous that it can tilt it in his favor. At his best, he was the second best SF in the world after Bird. And this is during the greatest era of SF's ever in the L. King also came back strong after those injuries, became an All Star again, and put up 28 points per game at 34 years of age. He finished very close to 20,000 points finishing at 19,655 points for his career. If u combine his dominant college career at Tennessee, I think King should be in the HOF. His peak value was so great and he bascially has 20,000 points to back it up.

[NugzHeat3]

Really good post as usual, very accurate assessment of Zo's game, and that's remarkably high praise from Riley about Hardaway. The strongest argument for Zo's value to the team is that Miami won due to their defense first and foremost, and despite Tim leading them to an 11-4 record without Zo, their defense wasn't the same without him. So even though Riley's teams post-LA were usually very good defensively, he was still a huge key to it. But to back up your point about Zo essentially being the 1st option hurting Hardaway's offensive numbers, Tim averaged 24/9 with Zo out of the lineup. Zo was at his best in '99 and '00 as we've mentioned in the past. 2000 would be the absolute best I've seen him play, but Hardaway was older and really struggled with injuries, while Mashburn struggled to play up to his potential in that offense. It's too bad 2000 ended Zo's prime prematurely, they were set to be easily the most talented team in the East after acquiring Eddie Jones coming off his best season, Anthony Mason who made the '01 all-star game and Brian Grant who averaged 15/9 playing out of position at center. With names like that as well as Bruce Bowen emerging as a rotation player and stopper, they'd have an incredible defensive lineup if Zo was around coming off back to back DPOY awards. And Riley's teams were always good to great after LA as it is. They actually improved defensively in '01 finishing top 4, and they still won 50 games. I can't see them getting any worse adding Zo which would also move Brian Grant back to his natural position. Plus, it probably would've helped their rebounding and they were a poor rebounding team.

The worst example of Zo being rattled in the playoffs was the '96 1st round series vs Chicago. The last game made his numbers look better when it wasn't really competitive and he wasn't really dominating, but for a lot of the minutes he was on the floor, he didn't stand out as playing better than Luc Longley. He was constantly in foul trouble, and many of them were unnecessary. I like Zo, but it's remarkable how much he struggled in that series.

Back to Hardaway and Miami's offense, those are really good points. Miami's offense was one of the worst for putting up big numbers. They probably underachieved offensively with guys like Hardaway, Mourning, Mashburn ect.

Remember how much Mashburn was criticized for struggling in Miami's offense? I believe Riley planned to make him the 1st option in '97-'98, but I assume scrapped that idea. And look what happens when he leaves Miami, he becomes one of the best small forwards in Charlotte. Mashburn's "revenge" in the '01 playoffs was a big story that year.

And perhaps an even bigger indictment is that Eddie Jones was coming off his best season in Charlotte in 2000 when he was imo, the 3rd best shooting guard behind Kobe and Iverson. But similar to Mashburn, I remember him being seen as a disappointment when he arrived in Miami.



I might take peak '03 Jason Kidd as well, a much better passer regardless of assists, better defender, could make a big impact on the boards and Kidd at his peak was a good scorer, though it didn't last long. That's why '03 Kidd stands out to me over his other seasons because it was before he lost some quickness and athleticism due to age and microfracture surgery plus it was around the time he was improving his shooting. His one flaw was that he still limited in the half court breaking down a defense off the dribble compared to Nash or Paul, but not as ball-dominant as well.

It's too bad we didn't see more of Kidd with the mix of his athleticism and his improved shooting, outside of the 3, he was also good at pulling up around the foul line.



How is he overrated?



I wouldn't call 5 or 6 years a short prime, but I guess by prime you mean elite years. But I'd take KJ over Mullin, and didn't have to think very hard about it, and I like Mullin.



He was a better player than just about all of them, except for perhaps King at his peak, but King's career was affected by injuries even more than KJ's, and most of those guys had less team success as the man on their teams.
Great post ShaqAttack. Agree on all the points you made about the Heat and I want to expand on them underachieving offensively in the playoffs for the talent they had. For one, I think Riley was trying to create a similar team to those Knicks he coached so he adopted a defensive mindset and a very slow pace (near the bottom of the league) so a lack of transition opportunities will naturally hurt your offense. The teams they were facing like the 1997 Knicks and Bulls were also tremendous defensive teams that could figure out and exploit the weaknesses of their offense with ease especially taking Zo out of ball games like the Bulls did in 1996 and 1997 like you mentioned.

Mashburn was also a terrible fit on the team and the touches he got in the post (albeit he was great on the block especially on the turnaround) often led to the offense stagnating and he rarely produced in the playoffs. I really wish they were able to ship his ass out and acquire Richmond before the 1998 trade deadline. Riley showed a lot of interest in him and Richmond would've been a much better fit + a reliable scorer which was lacking at times.

I agree with everything you said about the 2001 team. They're a lock to make the finals if Zo's healthy. I can't see the Sixers or Bucks really posing a major threat. Their defense would've had all the tools to slow AI and the Bucks offense.

Here's an article about Hardaway, can't get the full version since you have to subscribe but it does validate my point about how Tim had to battle against the shot clock so much and missing a few tough shots can impact your efficiency quite a bit. Also, I wasn't aware he put up 24/9 without Zo in the line up in 1997. They had a pretty damn good record without Zo in 1998 as well (16-8). I'd imagine their defense was still solid albeit not dominant without him. The rest of the team had bought into Riley's defensive system and at times you can still have a good team defense without an anchor like the Bobcats with Larry Brown.


LAST (EVERY?) SHOT IS HARDAWAY'S
Author: GREG STODA
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Date: May 13, 1997
Publication: The Palm Beach Post Page Number: 9C
Word Count: 484

There is no time-of-possession statistic in basketball, but here's an unofficial barometer to use when the Miami Heat are on offense: The best guess is that Tim Hardaway has it.

Sure, he's the point guard, and a lot of NBA point guards control the ball because that's what they're paid to do.

But not many are asked to do as much as Hardaway, who invariably finds himself getting the ball back with a shot-clock ticking down and the Heat running out of options. Increasingly, it is Hardaway who is the primary choice make something happen. He attempted only 10 shots during Miami's game Monday night in Madison Square Garden, and the Heat went down to an unceremonious defeat to the New York Knicks 89-76.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=PBPB&p_theme=pbpb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EAF3FE7B4BDD41C&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

As for Kidd vs KJ, the points you mentioned are valid although I'm not as high on Kidd's defense as you. He's definitely a better team defender (help defense + the boards) and overall defender as well but I might have to give individual defense to KJ depending on the match up. I'd prefer Kidd against 2s and 3s since his size offers versatility but I remember moments like when they had to switch Kidd off of Parker in the 2003 finals because he was getting torched and Kittles was able to keep Parker in check for the rest of the series. Kidd's defense has never been that great against dribble penetration. I actually think KJ is better in that regard. KJ did a decent job against Jordan's penetration in the finals when he switched onto him. Of course, Jordan still dominated and used his size in the post and to rise up for jumpshots but he actually commented on how great his foot speed was.

Kidd has the intangibles edge but KJ's edge in scoring is a bit too huge for me too ignore. He's just a lot better offensive player. Much better finisher around the rim, quicker in terms of first step and getting to the lane, better mid range game and took over more games in the playoffs.