For those people that said Rose didn't deserve MVP...

[Bandito]

...he wasn't important to his team. This is for you = :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol :roll: :roll:

[Tenchi Ryu]

Then the ONE guy who could keep the energy for this team, and could get everyone hype....goes down tonight.

FML
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[christian1923]

Yea those ppl are dumbasssess.

[Celtics4ever]

I feel bad for the Bulls. There is no question that the Bulls are the Milwaukee Bucks without Rose. This makes me question Thibs coaching. You can win all the games you want against scrub teams during the season, but you need your best player in the playoffs.

Bulls have no offense without Rose and their defense isn't that great either maybe cause they have to work so hard on offense with Rose not there. I saw the stats and it showed that the Bulls average less assists and less PPG without Rose.

[CelticBaller]

this team breaks down in the 4rth, they definitely need a leader

[nathanjizzle]

rose deserved his mvp. anybody that disagrees is wrong and doesnt know it.

[Celtics4ever]

What will happen next year? When Rose will miss the start of the season?

[comerb]

It has a lot more to do with their heart being ripped out than it does with Rose's contributions. They went from being a contender to not in a fraction of a second.

End of the day, they are still a better team than the Sixers, with 3 all-star level talents on their roster not even counting Rose. They just don't have anything to play for anymore.

[Celtics4ever]

It has a lot more to do with their heart being ripped out than it does with Rose's contributions. They went from being a contender to not in a fraction of a second.

End of the day, they are still a better team than the Sixers, with 3 all-star level talents on their roster not even counting Rose. They just don't have anything to play for anymore.

I called it after Rose went out. The Bulls don't have enough fire power without Rose to make it past the 76ers and especially close out games in the 4th. The whole Bulls offense runs through Rose. With him not being there, they are clueless.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Rose is a great player. Didn't deserve MVP but good none the less. He had a decent career. Now that hes pretty much done.

[Celtics4ever]

Rose is a great player. Didn't deserve MVP but good none the less. He had a decent career. Now that hes pretty much done.

Quit trolling. :facepalm

Bulls would have lost to the Pacers in that first round last year without Rose.

[k0kakw0rld]

...he wasn't important to his team. This is for you = :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol :roll: :roll:

Josh Smith MVP then?:facepalm Amare MVP?:facepalm

LeBron deserved it last year and sure deserves it this year

[Tenchi Ryu]

Josh Smith MVP then?:facepalm Amare MVP?:facepalm

LeBron deserved it last year and sure deserves it this year
No

[Oositdwn]

Rose is a great player. Didn't deserve MVP but good none the less. He had a decent career. Now that hes pretty much done.
Funny how you're commenting on rose not being worthy of MVP yet you have nash in your avy :rolleyes:

[6JamesIsKing]

Bulls weren't going to beat the Sixers anyway.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Quit trolling. :facepalm

Bulls would have lost to the Pacers in that first round last year without Rose.
I'm not trolling Rose had a decent career. Don't think we will see the explosiveness any more though. ACL isn't a joke for a player thats game is built on being a freak.

[Celtics4ever]

Rose was the clear cut MVP last year. There was no one that was playing upto his level. The dude was closing out games, and finishing off every team without Boozer, Noah and sometimes Deng. The only fans that would argue against that are LeBron stans.

[Celtics4ever]

I'm not trolling Rose had a decent career. Don't think we will see the explosiveness any more though. ACL isn't a joke for a player thats game is built on being a freak.

Whatever you say LeBron23's second account

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Whatever you say LeBron23's second account
Ok Celtics4ever joined July 2011...

[the_future02]

Quick someone tell me how Derrick Rose would have stopped Spencer Hawes from shiitting on the Bulls frontcourt :oldlol:

[BGriffin's Dad]

i'm kinda glad that a shitty team like the Hornets drafted CP3... if the Bulls had been able to get their hands on CP3 instead of getting stuck with Rose, they'd probably have a couple more banners to hang up by now.

[Celtics4ever]

Quick someone tell me how Derrick Rose would have stopped Spencer Hawes from shiitting on the Bulls frontcourt :oldlol:

Bulls went 6-24 in the 4th. Their defense wasn't the problem. They obviously needed Rose. I'm sure they would have won the past 2 games easily with Rose.

How old are some posters here? Do you guys lack the knowledge to understand basketball or are you idiots just LeBron stans?

[Celtics4ever]

i'm kinda glad that a shitty team like the Hornets drafted CP3... if the Bulls had been able to get their hands on CP3 instead of getting stuck with Rose, they'd probably have a couple more banners to hang up by now.

The same CP3 that won't take the stacked Clippers team out of the second round this year?

[Clocian-IGN]

i'm kinda glad that a shitty team like the Hornets drafted CP3... if the Bulls had been able to get their hands on CP3 instead of getting stuck with Rose, they'd probably have a couple more banners to hang up by now.

right...........how many rings cp360 have?

[Celtics4ever]

right...........how many rings cp360 have?

Why does every ISH thread get smushed by trolls? :oldlol:

[Tenchi Ryu]

Quick someone tell me how Derrick Rose would have stopped Spencer Hawes from shiitting on the Bulls frontcourt :oldlol:
Yea, it was hard as hell to stop him in the first game....too busy handing out asswhoopins.

[nba_55]

MVP is a regular season award. BUlls showed this year that they can win regular season awards without Rose. THey would have probably done good also last year.
Playoffs are different. Even with Rose, they struggled last year. Pacers :lol and Hawks :oldlol: gave them hard time. And Miami, finished them. Yeah, they would have done better with Rose in this series, but it has nothing to do with last year s MVP.

[6JamesIsKing]

I feel bad for the Bulls. There is no question that the Bulls are the Milwaukee Bucks without Rose. This makes me question Thibs coaching. You can win all the games you want against scrub teams during the season, but you need your best player in the playoffs.

Bulls have no offense without Rose and their defense isn't that great either maybe cause they have to work so hard on offense with Rose not there. I saw the stats and it showed that the Bulls average less assists and less PPG without Rose.

Is this some kind of joke?

The Bulls are a playoff team w/o Rose.

[nba_55]

Why does every ISH thread get smushed by trolls? :oldlol:

Bulls fans trolled ish during the whole year with their Hamilton the difference maker.:lol :lol :lol

[Tenchi Ryu]

MVP is a regular season award. BUlls showed this year that they can win regular season awards without Rose. THey would have probably done good also last year.
Playoffs are different. Even with Rose, they struggled last year. Pacers :lol and Hawks :oldlol: gave them hard time. And Miami, finished them. Yeah, they would have done better with Rose in this series, but it has nothing to do with last year s MVP.
No, Rose won MVP because of carrying a Bulls team with a missing Noah and Boozer, 2 significant pieces who helped carried the load while Rose was out this year.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Bulls fans trolled ish during the whole year with their Hamilton the difference maker.:lol :lol :lol
:biggums: :biggums:
You dont' know what you're talking about. Rip has looked excellent this past month. Him with a fully healthy Bulls team would have been what we needed.

[nba_55]

:biggums: :biggums:
You dont' know what you're talking about. Rip has looked excellent this past month. Him with a fully healthy Bulls team would have been what we needed.

yeah... He looked great when Wade defended him.:oldlol: :oldlol:
He would have been the DIFFERENCE MAKER! LOL

[nba_55]

No, Rose won MVP because of carrying a Bulls team with a missing Noah and Boozer, 2 significant pieces who helped carried the load while Rose was out this year.

Bulls also won games this year without Deng, Rose, Noah
Do you give the MVP to John Lucas?

[Tenchi Ryu]

yeah... He looked great when Wade defended him.:oldlol: :oldlol:
He would have been the DIFFERENCE MAKER! LOL
This is why no one takes Heat stans seriously.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Bulls also won games this year without Deng, Rose, Noah
Do you give the MVP to John Lucas?
Deng missed 10, Noah only missed 5 tops.

FAIL argument.

[Celtics4ever]

This is why no one takes Heat stans seriously.

They are not Heat stans. There are no Heat fans. They are all LeBron stans. I thought everyone knew that?

And yes, I hate LeBron fans. The most annoying fans out there.

[the_future02]

Bulls went 6-24 in the 4th. Their defense wasn't the problem. They obviously needed Rose. I'm sure they would have won the past 2 games easily with Rose.

How old are some posters here? Do you guys lack the knowledge to understand basketball or are you idiots just LeBron stans?


So how does not scoring correlate to a scrub bench player going H.A.M dropping buckets?

[Tenchi Ryu]

So how does not scoring correlate to a scrub bench player going H.A.M dropping buckets?
Scrub bench player scoring wouldn't have meant a damn thing if Bulls could have just simply trade baskets.

[nba_55]

Deng missed 10, Noah only missed 5 tops.

FAIL argument.

So what? They did good in those games.
They also did good without Rose.
Their MVP was their defense this season and also last season.

[Celtics4ever]

So how does not scoring correlate to a scrub bench player going H.A.M dropping buckets?

:lol :lol :roll: :roll:
Are you seriously that stupid? Do you understand basketball?

Stupid LeBron stans.

[Tenchi Ryu]

So what? They did good in those games.
They also did good without Rose.
Their MVP was their defense this season and also last season.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Of course they did good THIS YEAR, because they IMPROVED THIS YEAR.

If you would have watched bulls basketball last year, you would know all of this offense and team ball movement you've been seeing all year, we had none of that last year, none.

Defense keeps you in the game, but lack of scoring will still make you lose. Bulls have shown that 2 games in a row now.

[Celtics4ever]

So what? They did good in those games.
They also did good without Rose.
Their MVP was their defense this season and also last season.

So what happened to their Defense against the Sixers?? :lol

[the_future02]

Scrub bench player scoring wouldn't have meant a damn thing if Bulls could have just simply trade baskets.

But wait I thought this was one of the great defensive teams but you cant stopped Spencer Hawes from going Kevin Mchale on your ass?:biggums:

[Tenchi Ryu]

But wait I thought this was one of the great defensive teams but you cant stopped Spencer Hawes from going Kevin Mchale on your ass?:biggums:
You are truly a moron lol. Spencer Hawes going off around the same time Noah gets injured, yet that doesn't factor in at all....
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Miami/Lebron trolls are so damn dumb at times.

[Celtics4ever]

But wait I thought this was one of the great defensive teams but you cant stopped Spencer Hawes from going Kevin Mchale on your ass?:biggums:

They stopped the spencer hawes with at the defense at the no Rose=at the no offense.

Did I stupid it down for you enough?

[nba_55]

So what happened to their Defense against the Sixers?? :lol

Playoffs are different
What happened to that Bulls team that beat Heat 3 times in regular season last year in playoffs?
Why did they struggle against the Hawks and Pacers?

[nba_55]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Of course they did good THIS YEAR, because they IMPROVED THIS YEAR.

If you would have watched bulls basketball last year, you would know all of this offense and team ball movement you've been seeing all year, we had none of that last year, none.

Defense keeps you in the game, but lack of scoring will still make you lose. Bulls have shown that 2 games in a row now.

They would move the ball more without a ball stopper in Rose.
Get real! Rose didnt deserve it.

[JohnnyWall]

Rose is a great athlete, but an incredibly overrated point guard. It's just that his athleticism and quickness mask his weaknesses at that position. Very one-dimensional scorer, not a great distributor or floor general like a Chris Paul or even a Rondo.

It's a similar story with Blake Griffin. Although he's a slightly better PF than Rose is a PG. But Griffin's sheer athleticism masks his weaknesses at PF as well.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Playoffs are different
What happened to that Bulls team that beat Heat 3 times in regular season last year in playoffs?

They played exactly the same they way they played in the Reg season, each game coming down to the last min. The Point margin average for the ECF was like 4 points, thats one game winning shot plus dagger FTs. That's as close as you can get.

[Celtics4ever]

Playoffs are different
What happened to that Bulls team that beat Heat 3 times in regular season last year in playoffs?
Why did they struggle against the Hawks and Pacers?

They didn't really struggle against them. They actually beat them nicely. If defense was their MVP then they would have won these games against the sixers this year.

You LeBron stans are dumb. I can't wait till LeBron chokes it up again. Then the Heat can trade him for Dwight Howard.

LeBron=biggest loser in the history of the game.

[lilgodfather1]

Rose wouldn;t have won MVP any year in the past 5, but the reason he did was because all of the competition he faced had down years, and the Bulls "over achieved". LeBron had "too much help", Kobe had a "down year", Dwight didn't have the record, etc.

[Tenchi Ryu]

They would move the ball more without a ball stopper in Rose.
Get real! Rose didnt deserve it.
This man is talking out his ass now. But then again, this is Miami stans way of life.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Rose is a great athlete, but an incredibly overrated point guard. It's just that his athleticism and quickness mask his weaknesses at that position. Very one-dimensional scorer, not a great distributor or floor general like a Chris Paul or even a Rondo.

It's a similar story with Blake Griffin. Although he's a slightly better PF than Rose is a PG. But Griffin's sheer athleticism masks his weaknesses at PF as well.
This guy has no clue what he's talking about. Drop in PPG this year, #1 hockey assists leader in the NBA, and averaging one less assist than CP3. Please at least try to know what you're talking about.

[nba_55]

They didn't really struggle against them. They actually beat them nicely. If defense was their MVP then they would have won these games against the sixers this year.

You LeBron stans are dumb. I can't wait till LeBron chokes it up again. Then the Heat can trade him for Dwight Howard.

LeBron=biggest loser in the history of the game.

Look who is talking! A celtics fan that already surrendered to Heat! :lol :lol
Even if lebron chokes, it wont be against the Celtics :oldlol:
What are you happy about?

[cteach111]

D Rose going down like he did and the Heat winning the ship would add up to being one of the worst years in NBA History ever...................

[Celtics4ever]

They would move the ball more without a ball stopper in Rose.
Get real! Rose didnt deserve it.

The Bulls were averaging less assists and points without Rose. This shows you dont know your shlt. You're just here to lick LeBron's balls.

[Pointguard]

So what? They did good in those games.
They also did good without Rose.
Their MVP was their defense this season and also last season.
I don't know how Lebron fans are still upset by this. If Lebron had won three straight MVP's and totally fell on his face like he did last year in the finals - he would be marked for life. It was one of the best things that happened to him. How embarrassing and how far did you all want his fall from grace to be. That would be the grandslam of the most embarrassing year in the sport. And this would be on top of the biggest public change of heart on a player ever in terms of collapses. I don't even believe yall like him.

After the all star break last year his team fell apart with superstars not getting their act together. It was on them. Lebron had to sacrifice last year with all of the bad press surrounding him. It wasn't going to happen - count how many votes DH got for DPOY? If you don't keep your game tight, don't expect recognition. Rose winning MVP was great for Lebron's legacy. Rose won more with no stars, injuries, young team, changes and defences totally geared on him. If think Lebron needed one more public relations failure last year - you hate him.

If you are a real Lebron fan, like me, your position should be, yeah Rose did it and I'm happy as hell he did!

:crazysam:

[nba_55]

This man is talking out his ass now. But then again, this is Miami stans way of life.

The guy that said Knicks would give trouble to Heat talking out his ass...

[nba_55]

The Bulls were averaging less assists and points without Rose. This shows you dont know your shlt. You're just here to lick LeBron's balls.

You re such a fail!
First, you re giving up with your team even before they play Heat.
Then, you say I lick Lbron s balls, and he is not even my favorite player.
failure!!

[Pointguard]

Rose is a great athlete, but an incredibly overrated point guard. It's just that his athleticism and quickness mask his weaknesses at that position. Very one-dimensional scorer, not a great distributor or floor general like a Chris Paul or even a Rondo.

It's a similar story with Blake Griffin. Although he's a slightly better PF than Rose is a PG. But Griffin's sheer athleticism masks his weaknesses at PF as well.

Name me a player that improved more aspects of his game than Rose did the last three years? You actually think he was improving his athletism? Name me a better leader? If Rose had the shooters, finishers and creators that CP3 and Rondo had he would've had more assist per game than them for sure. Why?

Who has the best winning percentage as a player the last two years?
What player was relied on more than Rose for offense last year?

After the allstar game last year who was the reliable shooter on the Bulls? Who else created their own shot on the team? Who else was known as a finisher at the rim on the team?

[Tenchi Ryu]

The guy that said Knicks would give trouble to Heat talking out his ass...
You really gonna compare the knicks we saw 2 weeks before the post season to the mess we are seeing now? REALLY Melo hasn't even DREAMED of a 30+ point game this round.

[Celtics4ever]

Name me a player that improved more aspects of his game than Rose did the last three years? You actually think he was improving his athletism? Name me a better leader? If Rose had the shooters, finishers and creators that CP3 and Rondo had he would've had more assist per game than them for sure. Why?

Who has the best winning percentage as a player the last two years?
What player was relied on more than Rose for offense last year?

After the allstar game last year who was the reliable shooter on the Bulls? Who else created their own shot on the team? Who else was known as a finisher at the rim on the team?

Good posts. Ignore these LeBron stans. They just ask for trouble when they troll like that on other players.

[Smoke117]

He didn't.

[nba_55]

You really gonna compare the knicks we saw 2 weeks before the post season to the mess we are seeing now? REALLY Melo hasn't even DREAMED of a 30+ point game this round.

It s the same knicks, the only difference is that they are playing Heat.
Bulls fans always talk shit during the regular season, but when it comes to the playoffs, they come with all kind of excuses.

[Tenchi Ryu]

It s the same knicks,
Stopped reading. Shit Defense, Melo no where to be found, Shump out, Novak MIA, hell the whole bench. They are literally getting beat at points of the game for purely stupid shit.

This is definitely not the same knicks, you are deluding yourself if you honestly think it is.

[nba_55]

Stopped reading. Shit Defense, Melo no where to be found, Shump out, Novak MIA, hell the whole bench. They are literally getting beat at points of the game for purely stupid shit.

This is definitely not the same knicks, you are deluding yourself if you honestly think it is.

Stopped reading.

[I<3NBA]

Bulls fans happy they are losing in the playoffs so Rose can be validated as MVP :facepalm

[Tenchi Ryu]

Bulls fans happy they are losing in the playoffs so Rose can be validated as MVP :facepalm
Post proof or STFU

[JohnnyWall]

This guy has no clue what he's talking about. Drop in PPG this year, #1 hockey assists leader in the NBA, and averaging one less assist than CP3. Please at least try to know what you're talking about.

lol @ hockey assists.


PGs who averaged more rebounds than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, Rondo, Irving, Wall, Lowry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who averaged more assists than Rose this year: CP3, DWill, Rondo, Nash, Wall, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who averaged more steals than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Rondo, Parker, Irving, Wall, Lowry, Curry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who averaged fewer turnovers than Rose this year: CP3, Parker, Lowry, Curry, Lawson, Calderon, Miller... (and more)
PGs who had a higher FG% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Irving, Curry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who had a higher 3PT% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Nash, Irving, Lowry, Curry, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who had a higher FT% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Nash, Irving, Lowry, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who had more double-doubles than Rose this year: CP3, DWill, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Wall, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)


It's no coincidence that the better PG (CP3) topped Rose in all of those categories this year. Like I said, Rose is a great athlete and physical specimen, but a very overrated point guard. It's completely true that he's a one-dimensional scorer too. He pounds the paint for a contested layup, which is partially to blame for his ****ed up knees.

If Rose could pass or run an offense like CP3 or Parker, he'd be an infinitely better PG.

[Celtics4ever]

lol @ hockey assists.


PGs who averaged more rebounds than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, Rondo, Irving, Wall, Lowry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who averaged more assists than Rose this year: CP3, DWill, Rondo, Nash, Wall, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who averaged more steals than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Rondo, Parker, Irving, Wall, Lowry, Curry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who averaged fewer turnovers than Rose this year: CP3, Parker, Lowry, Curry, Lawson, Calderon, Miller... (and more)
PGs who had a higher FG% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Irving, Curry, Lawson... (and more)
PGs who had a higher 3PT% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Nash, Irving, Lowry, Curry, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who had a higher FT% than Rose this year: CP3, Westbrook, DWill, Nash, Irving, Lowry, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)
PGs who had more double-doubles than Rose this year: CP3, DWill, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Wall, Lawson, Calderon... (and more)


It's no coincidence that the better PG (CP3) topped Rose in all of those categories this year. Like I said, Rose is a great athlete and physical specimen, but a very overrated point guard. It's completely true that he's a one-dimensional scorer too. He pounds the paint for a contested layup, which is partially to blame for his ****ed up knees.

If Rose could pass or run an offense like CP3 or Parker, he'd be an infinitely better PG.

Rose only played like 20 games this year and half of them he played through injuries. Were you too busy lickin LeBron's nuts this year that you didn't notice that? :lol

[Pointguard]

Rose only played like 20 games this year and half of them he played through injuries. Were you too busy lickin LeBron's nuts this year that you didn't notice that? :lol
I really don't think he knew that.

[Pointguard]

And Rose had three games where he only averaged like 5 minutes, which greatly affects your average. Rose was only fully healthy the first 4 games of the year. One of which he played against CP3.

[sportsfan76]

What is the point of this thread? Rose is out, it shouldn't matter against the sixers but it is because the coach is clueless

Tibs......"That's a stupid dude"

[JohnnyWall]

Rose only played like 20 games this year and half of them he played through injuries. Were you too busy lickin LeBron's nuts this year that you didn't notice that? :lol

Rose played 39 games (over half of this season) on 35 minutes per game, and the stats I'm talking about are averages. As in, per game.

And I can't stand LeBron. :oldlol: I don't see what he has to do with Rose being an overrated PG and unmistakably inferior to PGs like CP3, Parker and even Rondo.

[Celtics4ever]

Rose played 39 games (over half of this season) and the stats I'm talking about are averages. As in, per game.

And I can't stand LeBron. :oldlol: I don't see what he has to do with Rose being an overrated PG and unmistakably inferior to PGs like CP3, Parker and even Rondo.

Half the games he played was due to injuries and some games he barely played more than 5 minutes. You can't compare numbers even if it's averages when one player has played significantly less than the other . Are you that stupid?

And I always seen you defend LeBron. Don't deny that you're not an undercover LEBron stan now haha. Idiot

[Go Getter]

Bulls fans trolled ish during the whole year with their Hamilton the difference maker.:lol :lol :lol
Not I.

[Simple Jack]

What makes Rose overrated? Especially this season?

Who's claiming that Rose is the best PG in the league? If it's been said by anyone who's known for not saying ridiculously stupid shit, I'd like to see it.

I've seen him ranked where he should be. In the 5-10 range (best players in the league).

[JohnnyWall]

Half the games he played was due to injuries and some games he barely played more than 5 minutes.

35.3 minutes per game bro. And you're lying about him having any games with 5 minutes played. He had one game with only 10 minutes played. The rest were 20+ and 30+.


And I always seen you defend LeBron. Don't deny that you're not an undercover LEBron stan now haha. Idiot

Not a single time. Ever. I'm a known Kobe fan, you tool. :roll:

Blatant liar, you are.

[JohnnyWall]

Who's claiming that Rose is the best PG in the league?

Many, many, many people on ISH have been saying it all year.

Whether they're known for saying stupid shit, I can't say. I feel like 90%+ of ISH says stupid shit on a consistent basis. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

He didn't.

[Pointguard]

Rose played 39 games (over half of this season) on 35 minutes per game, and the stats I'm talking about are averages. As in, per game.

And I can't stand LeBron. :oldlol: I don't see what he has to do with Rose being an overrated PG and unmistakably inferior to PGs like CP3, Parker and even Rondo.
Why are you talking about a guy that was hurt all year - is that the only way to make it even? You don't get it??? When Rose is healthy he plays at a level no other point attains. And he destroys CP3 and Rondo. They don't look like they are in his league when he plays them. He blocks them, leaves them behind him and then out passes them. We know they aren't going to out score him. CP3 was doing well against Rose and then started showing off his handle and that totally changed the complexion of that game. Have you seen them in the same game???

[yobore]

Why are you talking about a guy that was hurt all year - is that the only way to make it even? You don't get it??? When Rose is healthy he plays at a level no other point attains. And he destroys CP3 and Rondo. They don't look like they are in his league when he plays them. He blocks them, leaves them behind him and then out passes them. We know they aren't going to out score him. CP3 was doing well against Rose and then started showing off his handle and that totally changed the complexion of that game. Have you seen them in the same game???
be careful trying to conclude something from n=2 when the first was during Paul's worst stretch last year where every PG was destroying him because of him not trusting his knee, the second was the first week after lockout when he was out of shape and on a new team.

[Pointguard]

What makes Rose overrated? Especially this season?

Who's claiming that Rose is the best PG in the league? If it's been said by anyone who's known for not saying ridiculously stupid shit, I'd like to see it.

I've seen him ranked where he should be. In the 5-10 range (best players in the league).
Rose was unquestionably the best PG last year. Who are you saying was better?

[Pointguard]

be careful trying to conclude something from n=2 when the first was during Paul's worst stretch last year where every PG was destroying him because of him not trusting his knee, the second was the first week after lockout when he was out of shape and on a new team.
Out of shape is on Paul - sorry that's not an excuse. Last year Rose was on a new team (injuries, players, new coach and such) and he outplayed all of the point guards last year. So neither is a legit excuse.

[Simple Jack]

Rose was unquestionably the best PG last year. Who are you saying was better?

I'm talking about this year. I'm pretty sure most people rank Rose where he should be.

[JohnnyWall]

Out of shape is on Paul - sorry that's not an excuse.

"Injury" is on Rose - sorry that's not an excuse.

[Simple Jack]

"Injury" is on Rose - sorry that's not an excuse.

That's clearly different.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'm talking about this year. I'm pretty sure most people rank Rose where he should be.
People forget shit so damn quickly. At the beginning of the year, the big convo was Rose vs CP3 debates on who was the better PG, and it was equally divided. I even posted the sportsnation thing that like 90,000 people voted on who they thought was the best PG in the league. Rose was in first with CP3 right behind him by only like 100 votes.

To act like it was no contest is ignorant. The only reason the debate died down was cause while CP3 was on a rise, rose just couldn't catch a break with the injuries.

[Simple Jack]

People forget shit so damn quickly. At the beginning of the year, the big convo was Rose vs CP3 debates on who was the better PG, and it was equally divided. I even posted the sportsnation thing that like 90,000 people voted on who they thought was the best PG in the league. Rose was in first with CP3 right behind him by only like 100 votes.

To act like it was no contest is ignorant. The only reason the debate died down was cause while CP3 was on a rise, rose just couldn't catch a break with the injuries.


The beginning of this year is the same shit as last year. You can't ignore 66 games. The rankings for plenty of players is very different the end of this year as opposed to the end of last year.

I know where Rose was last year and he definitely deserved all the praise he was getting. This year is a bit different though.

[Pointguard]

"Injury" is on Rose - sorry that's not an excuse.
You are just not to bright, are you? First you compare an injuried player to a healthy player now you are acting ignorant to factors beyond a player's control. A player that is out of shape - he has the health to compensate for it. A player that is injuried doesn't have the health to compensate. Is that hard to understand?

[JohnnyWall]

You are just not to bright, are you? First you compare an injuried player to a healthy player now you are acting ignorant to factors beyond a player's control. A player that is out of shape - he has the health to compensate for it. A player that is injuried doesn't have the health to compensate. Is that hard to understand?

Injured players don't play 35 minutes per game while they're injured. The fact is that Rose wasn't injured for the entire season like Rose stans would like to believe. Convenient excuse for him shitting the bed in many of those 39 games, but no. Rose was only injured for the 17 games that he missed. For the other 39, the averages stand. 35.3 MPG. A scoring SG disguised as a PG bested by the actual PG, Chris Paul.

[LakersReign]

The only people dumb enough to even suggest that are butthurt Lebronytes. Who still feel Lebron supposedly got robbed of the MVP last year. Since they're operating under the delusion that Lebron's name is engraved on the MVP trophy, therefore he MUST win it every year until he retires.:rolleyes:

They're the same morons who were all giddy with excitement when Rose went down. Like any TRUE NBA fan would be happy a player went down with a season ending injury. Then expect people to take them seriously. Hopefully Rose comes back 100% next year.

[Pointguard]

Injured players don't play 35 minutes per game while they're injured. The fact is that Rose wasn't injured for the entire season like Rose stans would like to believe. Convenient excuse for him shitting the bed in many of those 39 games, but no. Rose was only injured for the 17 games that he missed. For the other 39, the averages stand. 35.3 MPG. A scoring SG disguised as a PG bested by the actual PG, Chris Paul.

Huh!!! I know you are not talking about their H2H matchup. You aren't serious. You can't be?

I was on these boards talking about how Rose wasn't exerting himself after the fifth game of the season. Actually a game before he played Chris Paul. Rose said he felt the Turf Toe since the beginning of the season. Anybody who seen Rose since he joined the league, never seen his scoring this erratic. For you to suggest that you are some type of doctor and hold the rights to declare players health is practical lunacy.

[Simple Jack]

LakersReign would throw a party with an open bar if Bron went down with an injury.

[arifgokcen]

LakersReign would throw a party with an open bar if Bron went down with an injury.
Bron injury.He is built like a tank i dont think we will ever see him get injured

[Smoke117]

He didn't deserve it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

There's a difference between thinking he didn't deserve his MVP and thinking he isn't important to his team. A huge difference, why do people always have to go to extremes and try to make out a reasonable opinion(not agreeing with Rose winning the MVP) to be more extreme than it is by linking it with a completely separate statement such as Rose not being important to his team(which I can't remember seeing anyone say).

I don't think he was the right choice for MVP, never have, and I never will. But would I question for one minute that he's important to Chicago? No, the guy is a legitimate star in the NBA. Hell, I wouldn't question the importance of Luol Deng, or Joakim Noah, neither of whom are on Rose's level.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

There's a difference between thinking he didn't deserve his MVP and thinking he isn't important to his team. A huge difference, why do people always have to go to extremes and try to make out a reasonable opinion(not agreeing with Rose winning the MVP) to be more extreme than it is by linking it with a completely separate statement such as Rose not being important to his team(which I can't remember seeing anyone say).

I don't think he was the right choice for MVP, never have, and I never will. But would I question for one minute that he's important to Chicago? No, the guy is a legitimate star in the NBA. Hell, I wouldn't question the importance of Luol Deng, or Joakim Noah, neither of whom are on Rose's level.
Exactly this. You can never question a 40% scorer who can do that against anything. Hes good. Great even. Didnt deserve MVP but clearly demands respect for getting buckets.

[NumberSix]

Rose was the best player on his team last year. So were 29 other guys. Being the best player on the Bulls doesn't make you the single most valuable player in the NBA.

[Pointguard]

There's a difference between thinking he didn't deserve his MVP and thinking he isn't important to his team. A huge difference, why do people always have to go to extremes and try to make out a reasonable opinion(not agreeing with Rose winning the MVP) to be more extreme than it is by linking it with a completely separate statement such as Rose not being important to his team(which I can't remember seeing anyone say).

I don't think he was the right choice for MVP, never have, and I never will. But would I question for one minute that he's important to Chicago? No, the guy is a legitimate star in the NBA. Hell, I wouldn't question the importance of Luol Deng, or Joakim Noah, neither of whom are on Rose's level.
Funny Rose won MVP and the voting and it wasn't close - I think only the more obvious Lebron the previous year, and KG's year were as clear cut in the minds of the voters in recent memory. Many of us here were saw Rose as the front runner in February before the all star game. After the Allstar game DH and Lebron both had bad streaks and saw their teams fall back. Both Lebron and DH had team integration issues, which MVP's just plain shouldn't be having after the allstar break.

Lebron's role was actually confusing: There were obvious issues of when to assert himself. The team continuously lost big games and suffered all year against teams with good records. It was plain disappointing to see them. Wade was more the leader of the team and he played eerily similar to Lebron. Same production too. In games against better teams they canceled each other out and the team usually lost. That and bad press just kind of ruined it for Lebron.

DH had little and next to no comp at center and had his worse months of the year once the playoff picture started taking shape. His leadership was straight garbage. Not only did the DPOY not demand to guard the only offensive center in the game, a rookie btw, in a critical game, but got himself suspended in two others (amazingly DH still managed to foul out the game guarding Dalembert). When a team is build around you - your example makes a difference. His team played disjointed ball in the last month and a half and DH's play really didn't affect team ball. You really can't say he asserted himself when games counted. But he had a good case for MVP before Feb. tho.

[Whoah10115]

The only thing that was annoying about Rose winning MVP last year was how he ran away with it.



Poster above is wrong. Rose's MVP was far from clear-cut. And that was the only problem for me.

[LamarOdom]

Didn't Noah miss the fourth Q? of course you gonna lose when your two best players are out.

[Bandito]

Josh Smith MVP then?:facepalm Amare MVP?:facepalm

LeBron deserved it last year and sure deserves it this year
Neega Rose deserve it last year as Lebron did.:biggums:

[Bandito]

MVP is a regular season award. BUlls showed this year that they can win regular season awards without Rose. THey would have probably done good also last year.
Playoffs are different. Even with Rose, they struggled last year. Pacers :lol and Hawks :oldlol: gave them hard time. And Miami, finished them. Yeah, they would have done better with Rose in this series, but it has nothing to do with last year s MVP.Are you watching the playoffs? The bulls are losing agaisn the 76ers:lol

[tmacattack33]

The only people dumb enough to even suggest that are butthurt Lebronytes. Who still feel Lebron supposedly got robbed of the MVP last year. Since they're operating under the delusion that Lebron's name is engraved on the MVP trophy, therefore he MUST win it every year until he retires.:rolleyes:

They're the same morons who were all giddy with excitement when Rose went down. Like any TRUE NBA fan would be happy a player went down with a season ending injury. Then expect people to take them seriously. Hopefully Rose comes back 100% next year.

Eh, bad post.

Most Rose haters are not Lebron fans.

I don't see any correlation there.

[Whoah10115]

And this idea that he plays at a level that no other PG "attains"...that's blatantly ridiculous. That's not up for discussion. That claim is 100% wrong. Not up for discussion.



I really don't see how Nash has declined or that Rose shits on a prime Nash. I really don't see how Chris Paul (who is at least 90% of what he once was and there's no reason to think he won't be what he once was next season).




I really don't see how Chris Paul, at his best (which he's never reached, as he's entering his prime) isn't better than Rose SO FAR. Rose has had one season that was better than Paul last season. And this season Paul is much better. And this season isn't even as good as that two year stretch in New Orleans. Rose has only played like a pure superstar since the start of last season (he played like one when healthy this year).




I also don't see how people are dumb enough to say that Rose is just a scoring SG in disguise. He's not a pure PG, but he has legit PG qualities. He doesn't facilitate the offense nearly enough. But he can actually control the pace of the game a bit, and he's 23.



He gets compared a bit to Allen Iverson (maybe if this was 3 on 3). I've seen him compared to Isiah. Ehh, a little. I can actually see his game being similar to Kevin Johnson's. He's not the natural playmaker that KJ was, but the game is similar.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Funny Rose won MVP and the voting and it wasn't close - I think only the more obvious Lebron the previous year, and KG's year were as clear cut in the minds of the voters in recent memory. Many of us here were saw Rose as the front runner in February before the all star game. After the Allstar game DH and Lebron both had bad streaks and saw their teams fall back. Both Lebron and DH had team integration issues, which MVP's just plain shouldn't be having after the allstar break.

First of all, why are you even trying to argue with me? Did you see anywhere in my post where I tried to convince anyone to agree with me? I stated my opinion, that's all.

As far as Dwight's team integration issues, I didn't see any of that last year. I saw Dwight having a bad and limited team, nothing more, nothing less.


Lebron's role was actually confusing: There were obvious issues of when to assert himself. The team continuously lost big games and suffered all year against teams with good records. It was plain disappointing to see them. Wade was more the leader of the team and he played eerily similar to Lebron. Same production too. In games against better teams they canceled each other out and the team usually lost. That and bad press just kind of ruined it for Lebron.

Lebron is tough, I do think he was the best player in the league, and he was on an elite team, but it was a weird year for him. That's why I go with Dwight over him.


DH had little and next to no comp at center and had his worse months of the year once the playoff picture started taking shape. His leadership was straight garbage. Not only did the DPOY not demand to guard the only offensive center in the game, a rookie btw, in a critical game, but got himself suspended in two others (amazingly DH still managed to foul out the game guarding Dalembert). When a team is build around you - your example makes a difference. His team played disjointed ball in the last month and a half and DH's play really didn't affect team ball. You really can't say he asserted himself when games counted. But he had a good case for MVP before Feb. tho.

The suspensions were stupid, but didn't ruin his year for me. He just had a phenomenal season, not many of the low scoring games that people have crucified him for in the past, and a lot big games, a surprising, he was up around 40 quite a few times, and plenty over 30, which combined with his defensive impact made his impact remendous. Looked really consistent in the post, and was actually making that mid-range bank shot at a decent rate. And his defense was as good as ever, actually, more impressive in some ways because after the Gortat trade, he cut down on his fouls a lot and stayed on the floor for more minutes.

Competition at center is irrelevant to me when it comes to value and impact throughout a season. As far as fouling out in a game guarding Dalembert...you do realize that in games like that, Dwight's help defense is considered far more important, right? And really, highlighting a single game or 2 throughout an 82 game season isn't really convincing. I could point out all the poor shooting games Rose had.

His team sucked last year, we saw it this season, they went 4-8 without him, and his cast this year was better with Anderson's improvement. Without Dwight, Orlando's only hope is to get an extremely hot with their 3s, and they may get a win once in a while that way, but everyone knows that's not a reliable way to play because they didn't have a post player other than Dwight, they didn't have anyone who was consistent creating off the dribble, and they didn't have the personnel to be a solid defensive team without him.

Dwight's team was the 3rd best defensive team, and he was responsible for the vast majority of their defensive success, imo. But he didn't have the best cast offensively either. He was at 23 ppg on 59% shooting, but aside from Vince Carter(who played just 22 games with the team and averaged 15.1 ppg), Dwight didn't even have a 15 ppg scorer. So they really depended on him a ridiculous amount at both ends. Winning 52(51-27 when Dwight played) with that team is very impressive to me, as well as Dwight's play.

But again, I'm not sure why you seem so hell bent on convincing me, I'm not anymore convinced than the first time you tried arguing with me about this.

[Orlando Magic]

It has a lot more to do with their heart being ripped out than it does with Rose's contributions. They went from being a contender to not in a fraction of a second.

End of the day, they are still a better team than the Sixers, with 3 all-star level talents on their roster not even counting Rose. They just don't have anything to play for anymore.

This is correct, for the rest of you morons.

[LakersReign]

Eh, bad post.

Most Rose haters are not Lebron fans.

I don't see any correlation there.


Please.:rolleyes:
Nobody seemed to have a problem with Rose until AFTER he won MVP last year, why was that?:confusedshrug:



Try again:no:

[nathanjizzle]

sad that people still believe cp3 is > derrick rose. using an injury prone seasons stats to compare, hes been out 5 seperate times in the season, like he really got into basketball shape. what a joke argument these delusional haters make.
chris paul has yet to win a game against rose:roll: but yet hes a better floor general.

[nathanjizzle]

lol i remember rookie season when rose played chris paul. after the game the press asked him what he thinks about people comparing derrick rose to him and chris paul actually responded by saying that it was an honor to be compared with derrick rose.

[Whoah10115]

sad that people still believe cp3 is > derrick rose. using an injury prone seasons stats to compare, hes been out 5 seperate times in the season, like he really got into basketball shape. what a joke argument these delusional haters make.
chris paul has yet to win a game against rose:roll: but yet hes a better floor general.



You're a little dumb sometimes. Believe it or not, who is better is not determined by head to head. Jason Kidd used to have problems with a young Tony Parker. Is young Tony Parker in Kidd's vicinity? No.




Derrick Rose is not better than Chris Paul. His best season isn't as good as Paul's best season, maybe not as good as his 2nd best season. And the best Rose has played, outside of that season, is this season. Except he was injured a lot.



So, in no way shape or form, is Derrick Rose a better player than Chris Paul. Not until he's actually a better player than Chris Paul. If you think that Rose, at his very best, has been better than Paul, I'd disagree but respect that. But actually being a better player will happen once he actually is a better player. And he's not. As great as he is, and as great as he was last year, I don't understand how he surpassed so many players with such ease. But now that he's injured, morons will start to act like he doesn't exist. He's a great player tho. I'm sure he'll come back and soon be better than ever.



Shutup.

[Pointguard]

The suspensions were stupid, but didn't ruin his year for me. He just had a phenomenal season, not many of the low scoring games that people have crucified him for in the past, and a lot big games, a surprising, he was up around 40 quite a few times, and plenty over 30, which combined with his defensive impact made his impact remendous. Looked really consistent in the post, and was actually making that mid-range bank shot at a decent rate. And his defense was as good as ever, actually, more impressive in some ways because after the Gortat trade, he cut down on his fouls a lot and stayed on the floor for more minutes.
I think DH improved a lot but his team changed - wasn't his fault, and the team didn't have the tightness it had two years ago when he was fully integrated into the team. While he improved it wasn't like he improved into the team. They went one way and he went the other.



Competition at center is irrelevant to me when it comes to value and impact throughout a season. As far as fouling out in a game guarding Dalembert...you do realize that in games like that, Dwight's help defense is considered far more important, right? And really, highlighting a single game or 2 throughout an 82 game season isn't really convincing. I could point out all the poor shooting games Rose had.

If you stop DMC the Magic beat Sacromento. It wasn't about his team help defense. The Kings suck as bad as most centers do. As a leader you say I take the assignment and will do more from that position. You hear that all the time from leaders. Rose always guards the great guards and will sometimes take the shooting guard. They don't always guard him but Rose, as a leader would be offended. Howard didn't assert himself. If Howard makes that stand, his players would buy into his pride. Tyson Chandler is foul prone, but he makes that stand.

Rose's bad shooting was more integrated into what the Bulls were trying to do than DH having a great game for the Magic. Rose insistence made teams back peddle and and further play into the Bulls strength of offensive rebounding. DH was a great individual player but his team did well with him playing a small role and played bad when he went ballistic: In the playoffs, he practically had a 50/20 game and the Magic lost convincingly, and then when he had a 8/8 game its the only game they won convincingly, that should not be for a guy that the team is built around. DH and his team weren't on the same page. He never huddled his players and said this is crunch time, lets get them. He's their leader and they play more inspired when he wasn't there. They play more as a cohesive unit when he wasn't there. DH was several steps removed from approaching an MVP. You can't be a WTF for the team and be MVP.


Dwight's team was the 3rd best defensive team, and he was responsible for the vast majority of their defensive success, imo. But he didn't have the best cast offensively either. He was at 23 ppg on 59% shooting, but aside from Vince Carter(who played just 22 games with the team and averaged 15.1 ppg), Dwight didn't even have a 15 ppg scorer. So they really depended on him a ridiculous amount at both ends. Winning 52(51-27 when Dwight played) with that team is very impressive to me, as well as Dwight's play.

But again, I'm not sure why you seem so hell bent on convincing me, I'm not anymore convinced than the first time you tried arguing with me about this.
Nothing personal, I just find the DH argument strange and out of the common way of MVP.

[ShaqAttack3234]

sad that people still believe cp3 is > derrick rose. using an injury prone seasons stats to compare, hes been out 5 seperate times in the season, like he really got into basketball shape. what a joke argument these delusional haters make.
chris paul has yet to win a game against rose:roll: but yet hes a better floor general.

You're really acting like Chris Paul doesn't even have a case over Rose? I think that you could make a case for either last season, but I also think that Paul in '08, '09 and this season was better than Rose ever was. Paul has been a top 3 player in the NBA this season, imo behind just Lebron and Durant, and he was top 2-3 in '08 with Kobe being the only player I thought was clearly better.

It's not that difficult of a choice for me because Paul is simply better at just about every aspect of the game, except scoring where Rose is simply more of a born scorer with more size and athleticism, though Paul can score too. He was a better shooter, and probably the best ball handler in the league right now, with his cast really mediocre in '10, he started off the season scoring a ton, and I've seen him take over many games.

Chris Paul at his peak is better than any point guard other than prime '87-'90 Magic Johnson since the ABA/NBA merger, imo followed by prime/peak Steve Nash. Whether or not Paul is a better player I guess is a matter of opinion, but he's certainly a better "floor general" than Rose, which I've always interpreted as running an offense.



I think DH improved a lot but his team changed - wasn't his fault, and the team didn't have the tightness it had two years ago when he was fully integrated into the team. While he improved it wasn't like he improved into the team. They went one way and he went the other.

Well, his team's talent clearly fell off from '09. Hedo was younger, and much better and more motivated. Lewis was also an all-star who played great for him, but he was also older, and less productive ever since the suspension, and ultimately traded.


If you stop DMC the Magic beat Sacromento. It wasn't about his team help defense. The Kings suck as bad as most centers do. As a leader you say I take the assignment and will do more from that position. You hear that all the time from leaders. Rose always guards the great guards and will sometimes take the shooting guard. They don't always guard him but Rose, as a leader would be offended. Howard didn't assert himself. If Howard makes that stand, his players would buy into his pride. Tyson Chandler is foul prone, but he makes that stand.

Dwight's value defensively has always been his help defense, the Magic would be lost without it, and that's the case with most defensive anchors. I've seen plenty of games where the great 90's centers didn't guard each other much in the regular season, and I'm talking about guys like Hakeem and Robinson where JR Reid and Antoine Carr would guard Hakeem, and Otis Thorpe would guard Robinson. There's a reason for that, those guys were too important to their teams to risk foul trouble, and stopping Cousins certainly isn't the priority that stopping those guys is.

Chandler is also a bad comparison, imo because he scores half of what Howard did in '11, and beyond the numbers, he's not a featured post player, much less the teams 1st option by far like Howard was in '11.

I didn't watch the game with Demarcus Cousins, so I can't say how that went down and can't comment on it.


Rose's bad shooting was more integrated into what the Bulls were trying to do than DH having a great game for the Magic. Rose insistence made teams back peddle and and further play into the Bulls strength of offensive rebounding. DH was a great individual player but his team did well with him playing a small role and played bad when he went ballistic: In the playoffs, he practically had a 50/20 game and the Magic lost convincingly, and then when he had a 8/8 game its the only game they won convincingly, that should not be for a guy that the team is built around. DH and his team weren't on the same page. He never huddled his players and said this is crunch time, lets get them. He's their leader and they play more inspired when he wasn't there. They play more as a cohesive unit when he wasn't there. DH was several steps removed from approaching an MVP. You can't be a WTF for the team and be MVP.

Again, I don't agree with a lot of this, and I really don't get behind a lot of the cliches that you do. I don't know what goes on in each team's locker room, and can't say how much of a difference there is, or how much more valuable that makes one than the other. As far as Rose's bad shooting, well, 6/21 games are often just bad games, Rose had them, and so did Howard, Chicago also won quite a few games when Rose struggled a lot with his shooting because of their rebounding and defense. You could say that even when Rose missed sometimes, he helped create opportunities for offensive rebounds, but that only goes so far, imo.

There will be games when Howard does less and they win, but that can also be interpreted as him getting help, which he didn't get a lot of in the Hawks series. You can say that Howard took away from his teammates to some degree, I don't know if he did or not, but they shot so poorly that they have to take the majority of blame for their own performances. Look at how his team shot, it's tough to expect anyone to win with that type of help. Howard did try to carry the load, and scored/rebounded a ton, but the Hawks strategy was to guard him mostly with single coverage to prevent the others from getting off. He did his job by scoring, but his teammates weren't good enough to score consistently without getting wide open looks, and they did get some open looks in that series, but ultimately didn't capitalize.

That's because all they really did was shoot, and when they weren't doing that well, they weren't much help at all.

Sometimes guys score more simply because they're not getting as much help. Look at Duncan's biggest scoring games from his prime, you'll see a similar result to Howard when Duncan scored around 40, but he was the perhaps the ideal team player of any superstar. So again, I'm not making any assumptions about that.


Nothing personal, I just find the DH argument strange and out of the common way of MVP.

I don't take it personally, but I stand by my opinion.

[Whoah10115]

Nothing personal, I just find the DH argument strange and out of the common way of MVP.




I have no idea what that means. Howard was the MVP last year. Very hard to understand how someone can fail to understand the argument for him. It's pretty ridiculous.





But Rose is clear-cut. He wasn't clear-cut. And there's no room for you to not understand Howard's case and not be wrong.

[Pointguard]

And this idea that he plays at a level that no other PG "attains"...that's blatantly ridiculous. That's not up for discussion. That claim is 100% wrong. Not up for discussion.

By that I hope you understand what I mean. In the last few years no PG was more responsible for their teams offense than Rose was and won at that level. Rose didn't have finishers last year, Korver's shot went south after February so he had no consistent shooters, no guys that could create shots for themselves consistently, nobody with a consistent middle game and the team won 60 games. So who is the PG that attained winning while holding down that much of the success of the offense? Rose also noticeably outplayed all of the elite PG's that had to guard him. Who was the last PG to attain a level where you just can say I know who won that match-up???

I'm not saying you should go by H2H but when its that thorough, you CAN. When Rose is healthy there is a consistent answer to who won that match-up, with the tinniest of exceptions. If it isn't up for discussion its only because its too obvious.

[TheMan]

Rose is a great player. Didn't deserve MVP but good none the less. He had a decent career. Now that hes pretty much done.
fvck off fa.ggot

[Human Error]

Rose is a cool young player who is easier for people to relate to because he's more like a retarded kid your next door compared to 6 foot 10 freak of nature's, but he is not the most valuable player in the league. Period.

[Pointguard]

Chris Paul at his peak is better than any point guard other than prime '87-'90 Magic Johnson since the ABA/NBA merger, imo followed by prime/peak Steve Nash. Whether or not Paul is a better player I guess is a matter of opinion, but he's certainly a better "floor general" than Rose, which I've always interpreted as running an offense.
Well consider Kidd the years he made the finals. He controlled more of the game with difficult pieces than probably any player ever. As a floor general he had more control than CP3 did.



Dwight's value defensively has always been his help defense, the Magic would be lost without it, and that's the case with most defensive anchors. I've seen plenty of games where the great 90's centers didn't guard each other much in the regular season, and I'm talking about guys like Hakeem and Robinson where JR Reid and Antoine Carr would guard Hakeem, and Otis Thorpe would guard Robinson. There's a reason for that, those guys were too important to their teams to risk foul trouble, and stopping Cousins certainly isn't the priority that stopping those guys is.
The 90's isn't a good example because the guys usually had to play other good centers no matter what. The guys in the 90's had to pace themselves over the course of the year. DMC really was the only offensive minded center in the whole league. And the game was during crunch time and critical to their positioning for the playoffs. One of the few times where the DPOY had to work at his position, the job gets passed on.


Chandler is also a bad comparison, imo because he scores half of what Howard did in '11, and beyond the numbers, he's not a featured post player, much less the teams 1st option by far like Howard was in '11.
I am talking about taking defense on as a leader of your team. You don't look like a good example if you don't take on the responsibility of your defensive cover. Particularly, if you only have to really defend someone once a month.


Again, I don't agree with a lot of this, and I really don't get behind a lot of the cliches that you do. I don't know what goes on in each team's locker room, and can't say how much of a difference there is, or how much more valuable that makes one than the other. As far as Rose's bad shooting, well, 6/21 games are often just bad games, Rose had them, and so did Howard, Chicago also won quite a few games when Rose struggled a lot with his shooting because of their rebounding and defense. You could say that even when Rose missed sometimes, he helped create opportunities for offensive rebounds, but that only goes so far, imo.

Cliches? You think DH is an accomplished leader? You don't see Rose's aggression and heart as part of the overall game plan? The Bull's game plan is about keeping pressure on the other team. As long as Rose kept coming at teams, they felt pressure. And teams usually lost the game in the fourth quarter when Rose would execute the win.


There will be games when Howard does less and they win, but that can also be interpreted as him getting help, which he didn't get a lot of in the Hawks series. You can say that Howard took away from his teammates to some degree, I don't know if he did or not, but they shot so poorly that they have to take the majority of blame for their own performances. Look at how his team shot, it's tough to expect anyone to win with that type of help. Howard did try to carry the load, and scored/rebounded a ton, but the Hawks strategy was to guard him mostly with single coverage to prevent the others from getting off. He did his job by scoring, but his teammates weren't good enough to score consistently without getting wide open looks, and they did get some open looks in that series, but ultimately didn't capitalize.
True.


I don't take it personally, but I stand by my opinion.
Its always respected.

[Whoah10115]

By that I hope you understand what I mean. In the last few years no PG was more responsible for their teams offense than Rose was and won at that level. Rose didn't have finishers last year, Korver's shot went south after February so he had no consistent shooters, no guys that could create shots for themselves consistently, nobody with a consistent middle game and the team won 60 games. So who is the PG that attained winning while holding down that much of the success of the offense? Rose also noticeably outplayed all of the elite PG's that had to guard him. Who was the last PG to attain a level where you just can say I know who won that match-up???

I'm not saying you should go by H2H but when its that thorough, you CAN. When Rose is healthy there is a consistent answer to who won that match-up, with the tinniest of exceptions. If it isn't up for discussion its only because its too obvious.




It sounds a lot more like you saw flashes of who the better player was. For one season to put him above everyone else...that requires a season that he didn't quite have.



And when I say, "Not up for discussion", I mean the idea that no other PG is close is not up for discussion. There's no way Rose is head and shoulders better than everyone else.

[I.Malcolm]

Rose was not a clear cut MVP last year. BUT he isn't a shameful choice either. Look at the Bulls without him. They are awful.

[Euroleague]

Rose winning the MVP was one of the biggest jokes of NBA history. Anyone saying otherwise does not know basketball.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well consider Kidd the years he made the finals. He controlled more of the game with difficult pieces than probably any player ever. As a floor general he had more control than CP3 did.

Well, Paul was more in control to me because he was a superior ball handler, and much more capable of probing and controlling a halfcourt game. Kidd may have been an even better pure passer, but Paul's ball handling, halfcourt game and scoring ability make him right up there as a playmaker.

Kidd is the better open court player, and Kidd is perhaps the smartest player of his generation and the best at making something happen out of nothing. Kidd in '03 impressed me far more than at any time because he was still in his prime('99-'04 was what I call his prime), but hadn't had the microfracture surgery and lost much quickness and athleticism. But that was also when he really improved his shooting, later he shot well, but had lost quickness and athleticism. That made him a much more dangerous scorer than earlier, or after the surgery when he was older.

He was also one of the best defensive point guards, I'll always give him credit for that, both his help defensive and the ability to guard 2 guards with his size.

And he obviously wasn't fortunate as far as the offensive talent around him when he was at his peak. He didn't have guys great at creating their own shots around him, and he played with mediocre shooters. Jefferson and Martin were more finishers who benefited from Kidd's passing.


The 90's isn't a good example because the guys usually had to play other good centers no matter what. The guys in the 90's had to pace themselves over the course of the year. DMC really was the only offensive minded center in the whole league. And the game was during crunch time and critical to their positioning for the playoffs. One of the few times where the DPOY had to work at his position, the job gets passed on.

Well, there were plenty of centers who weren't really big offensive threats in the 90's too, the position has always been probably the most top-heavy position. Though I would say there was more size and post skills in the average center up until the early 90's, even guys who weren't stars like Vlade, Sabonis, Elden Campbell(when he moved to center with Charlotte), Smits.

Though the position is starting to get a bit better again, there are still a good amount of 4s masquerading as 5s, but guys like Marc Gasol, Gortat and Hibbert are solid centers with size, of course the stars Howard and Bynum, and some of the younger players like Cousins and Greg Monroe have potential. Noah and Chandler aren't big offensive players, but very valuable centers for their defense and rebounding. Bogut is injured, but one of the better defensive players and had a great 2010 season. There are only a few 7 footers with the potential to be star centers in each era, and this more recent one was unlucky with injuries to 2 of those guys in Yao and Oden. Horford is more of a natural 4, but he's played center most of his career, and is a very solid NBA player, Al Jefferson could also be put in that category, and he's a very skilled post player. Nene also started off as a 4, but he's played the 5 mostly since Camby left Denver, and Brook Lopez has the size and skills. And there are veterans there like Duncan, and Garnett has played very well since moving to center.

I'm not sure who will be the next guy to join Howard and Bynum as elite centers, but the position looks more promising to me than it did in the mid/late 00's. Maybe Andre Drummond, though he's very raw right now. Cousins has a ton of potential, but his attitude is the question.


I am talking about taking defense on as a leader of your team. You don't look like a good example if you don't take on the responsibility of your defensive cover. Particularly, if you only have to really defend someone once a month.

This is where I disagree, Howard is a great example of leading with his defense because he was the guy making Orlando a top 3-4 defensive team by covering for his teammates mistakes, blocking and altering shots in the paint and being consistently active at that end. He wasn't as good of an example this season(hard to call him a leader at anything this season with all of that bullshit).


Cliches? You think DH is an accomplished leader? You don't see Rose's aggression and heart as part of the overall game plan? The Bull's game plan is about keeping pressure on the other team. As long as Rose kept coming at teams, they felt pressure. And teams usually lost the game in the fourth quarter when Rose would execute the win.

I didn't see anything to question seriously question his leadership, or to put Rose on another level prior to this season. All of the problems this season were as a result of the contract situation, and Howard's frustration from Orlando's disappointing 2011 playoff series. I don't remember him behaving in a similar way last season. The one thing I'll agree with is that the technicals were stupid.

And they were a 62-20 team who outscored opponents by 7.3 ppg so it's not like they were always beating teams with their 4th quarter play.


Rose was not a clear cut MVP last year. BUT he isn't a shameful choice either. Look at the Bulls without him. They are awful.

I don't think they're awful without him. They did go 18-9 without him. Obviously, they're much better with him(32-7), and they've struggled vs Philly. But I also think that the way Rose went down was so devastating that it had an impact. Philly also ended the season very poorly, but they are a capable team, they showed that earlier in the season, they have some good players, they're well coached and play defense. So despite their late season play and overall record, they're not a completely incapable team.

[JohnnyWall]

ShaqAttack dropping some serious knowledge on these crazed Rose homers in this thread. It's refreshing to see such objectivity on ISH for a change. :applause:


You're really acting like Chris Paul doesn't even have a case over Rose? I think that you could make a case for either last season, but I also think that Paul in '08, '09 and this season was better than Rose ever was. Paul has been a top 3 player in the NBA this season, imo behind just Lebron and Durant, and he was top 2-3 in '08 with Kobe being the only player I thought was clearly better.

It's not that difficult of a choice for me because Paul is simply better at just about every aspect of the game, except scoring where Rose is simply more of a born scorer with more size and athleticism, though Paul can score too. He was a better shooter, and probably the best ball handler in the league right now, with his cast really mediocre in '10, he started off the season scoring a ton, and I've seen him take over many games.

Chris Paul at his peak is better than any point guard other than prime '87-'90 Magic Johnson since the ABA/NBA merger, imo followed by prime/peak Steve Nash. Whether or not Paul is a better player I guess is a matter of opinion, but he's certainly a better "floor general" than Rose, which I've always interpreted as running an offense.

[Pointguard]

Well, Paul was more in control to me because he was a superior ball handler, and much more capable of probing and controlling a halfcourt game. Kidd may have been an even better pure passer, but Paul's ball handling, halfcourt game and scoring ability make him right up there as a playmaker.

Control is a patience thing taxed by the limitations of your personell. Kidd had nobody in the first finals charge and they had no experience. The Eastern Conference played a tough grind, as it still does, and Kidd managed a consistent three year charge without guys that proved themselves elsewhere. And Kidd did it by controlling the pace masterfully on both ends of the court. True CP was a better at shooting and scoring ability but that's different than control. I think CP had more options and the ability to do more but Kidd worked wonders with what he was given. CP3 did a lot with what he had as well but Kidd had to depend on the mind and pace control, more because he too, wasn't as talented of scorer than the quicker Chris Paul.

A side note on handles - this is not relevant to our conversation here: I think CP3 has a great handle but a lot of people think it's great because it's flashy. I would imagine most coaches would say Nash has the best handle - primarily because he keeps the dribble better than anybody and his ability to pass off of the dribble with precision is great. Another factor is Nash's ability to get where he wants to go is as good as any other guard. Rose's ability to consistently get past two defenders in a half court set also has him in that elite rank.



I'm not sure who will be the next guy to join Howard and Bynum as elite centers, but the position looks more promising to me than it did in the mid/late 00's. Maybe Andre Drummond, though he's very raw right now. Cousins has a ton of potential, but his attitude is the question.
It takes a much longer time for guys like DH and Bynum to develop. Five years seems like a long time for players to find their true center nature. Even DH took a long time. Bynum is big, long and strong but he was pretty bad in his 4th year. Drummond is a bigger Amare, sobeit, not as quick or fast, but don't expect to see him doing any damage anytime soon - He won't deserve more than Rookie scale in his first contract. It takes time for centers to develop.


I didn't see anything to question seriously question his leadership, or to put Rose on another level prior to this season. All of the problems this season were as a result of the contract situation, and Howard's frustration from Orlando's disappointing 2011 playoff series. I don't remember him behaving in a similar way last season. The one thing I'll agree with is that the technicals were stupid.
I would like to see DH pull a player aside - when he plays they guys get off track. The team plays more cohesively, more disciplined and with better energy with Big Baby than they do with Howard - at least in the playoffs. Howard jokes a lot during the game even when he's loosing.


I don't think they're awful without him. They did go 18-9 without him. Obviously, they're much better with him(32-7), and they've struggled vs Philly. But I also think that the way Rose went down was so devastating that it had an impact. Philly also ended the season very poorly, but they are a capable team, they showed that earlier in the season, they have some good players, they're well coached and play defense. So despite their late season play and overall record, they're not a completely incapable team.
True but Philly isn't Indiana and the Magic are putting up a real fight with them. Orlando is pretty much the same team as it was last year in the playoffs with DH. I think the Bulls will win a couple of more games - maybe even more if momentum doesn't sweep them. The Bulls without Rose in the RS looked like they could beat Philly. But we do have to see how they respond.