CP3 is the best pg since Magic Johnson.

[Mr. Jabbar]

There, I said it. *runs away before stockton shitstorm

[Stern]

He is if you count out the likes of Kidd, Isiah, Payton, Stockton. :facepalm:

[Fudge]

lolno.

:facepalm

[DuMa]

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/NASHDANCE.gif

[KDTrey5]

LLOL these kids

[SunsCaptain]

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/NASHDANCE.gif

:cheers:

[Celtic_Pride]

GOAT flopper for sure

Anyway let CP3 take his team to conference finals before putting him ahead of Stocton, Kidd and others!

[magnax1]

Nash. Stockton.

[1987_Lakers]

CP3 is better than Stockton if we are talking about peak play. Stockton couldn't take over a game like CP3.

[StateOfMind12]

If we are talking at their absolute peaks then I would agree because I have been saying that for the past 2-3 seasons.

He isn't or shouldn't be ranked above Nash, Kidd, Payton, Stockton, etc. on the all-time list though due to lack of consistency and longevity from season to season.

CP3's 2008 season is the best season by a PG since Magic.

[Mr. Jabbar]

This is a guy who has been playing his whole career in the friken HORNETS. He is multiple chips material have been in the right place. Not only talent wise, but competitiveness & team leader.

KG-esque career.

[tmacman]

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
John Stockton

Were all better in their primes. Can arguably throw Parker in there as well. But 07 Steve Nash was the best season by a PG since Magic.

[Jotaro Durant]

This is a guy who has been playing his whole career in the friken HORNETS. He is multiple chips material have been in the right place. Not only talent wise, but competitiveness & team leader.

KG-esque career.
paul:bowdown: garnett:bowdown: u have good eye for laker fan but name has goat in it kaj:applause:

[fsvr54]

How is Isaiah only mentioned once in this thread?

[Tenchi Ryu]

How is Isaiah only mentioned once in this thread?
I was actually waiting to see how many would name him myself lol.

[Clippersfan86]

CP3 is very similar to Isiah. Difference is Isiah had multiple good years with a great team. Let's see what CP3 can accomplish going forward. He just turned 27 two days ago.

[Tenchi Ryu]

CP3 is very similar to Isiah. Difference is Isiah had multiple good years with a great team. Let's see what CP3 can accomplish going forward. He just turned 27 two days ago.
No, he's not.

Isiah was literally the perfect balance of an attacking and facilitating PG, and is the person I want Rose to evolve into. CP3 is too passive at times, and doesn't look to score as much as Isiah did.

If anything, Rose is the PG who's most set up to become Isiah. Surrounded by a strong defensive team, strong connection to the second most valuable player to the team who is a wild and colorful character who oozes hustle, energy and defense, and demanded double teams on a frequent basis.

[Stern]

No, he's not.

Isiah was literally the perfect balance of an attacking and facilitating PG, and is the person I want Rose to evolve into. CP3 is too passive at times, and doesn't look to score as much as Isiah did.

If anything, Rose the PG who's most set up to become Isiah. Surrounded by a strong defensive team, second most valuable player to the team a wild and colorful character, and demanded double teams on a frequent basis.
Not to mention that Isiah never flopped all over the court like Chris Fall.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd also take CP3 at his peak over any point guard since prime Magic('87-'90). Nash at his best from '05-'07 would round out the top 3 for best point guards since the NBA/ABA merger, imo.

I wouldn't hesitate to take those 3 over the others. Kidd at his absolute peak in '03 was great, and obviously peak '90 KJ or even KJ from '89-'92 or even '94 for that matter, Stockton in the early/mid 90's, Payton in the mid/late 90's, and maybe Isiah from about '84-'90 have been the best. Though I've been thinking Isiah is kind of overrated honestly.


CP3 is very similar to Isiah. Difference is Isiah had multiple good years with a great team. Let's see what CP3 can accomplish going forward. He just turned 27 two days ago.

Isiah was much streakier as a shooter, and CP3 is also more impressive to me as a ball handler and passer. CP3 is more ball dominant, though, and that can be a problem with building around a point guard. Isiah used to play off the ball more than CP3 and sometimes the guard positions were interchangeable with Dumars running the point.

But his team was also much different. The Pistons weren't really a typical superstar team, they didn't rely the same one or two players every night. Depending on who was hot, they'd go to Isiah, Dumars, Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson or James Edwards as the go to guy for that stretch or night.

[Clippersfan86]

I'd also take CP3 at his peak over any point guard since prime Magic('87-'90). Nash at his best from '05-'07 would round out the top 3 for best point guards since the NBA/ABA merger, imo.

I wouldn't hesitate to take those 3 over the others. Kidd at his absolute peak in '03 was great, and obviously peak '90 KJ or even KJ from '89-'92 or even '94 for that matter, Stockton in the early/mid 90's, Payton in the mid/late 90's, and maybe Isiah from about '84-'90 have been the best. Though I've been thinking Isiah is kind of overrated honestly.

If you look at the numbers CP3 is basically a more efficient scoring Isiah. I think people are overrating Isiah and underrating CP3 right now. CP3 will no doubt finish a top 3 PG of all time if he puts up about 3-4 more seasons at these numbers and the Clippers have playoff success.

[Tenchi Ryu]

If you look at the numbers CP3 is basically a more efficient scoring Isiah. I think people are overrating Isiah and underrating CP3 right now. CP3 will no doubt finish a top 3 PG of all time if he puts up about 3-4 more seasons at these numbers and the Clippers have playoff success.
So we're overrating the guy who has 2 rings, led a team that stopped the GOAT and made him his bitch, and is a proven legend in the NBA world? This SAME guy would play Magic, ONE on ONE during ASG.

[Celtic_Pride]

No, he's not.

Isiah was literally the perfect balance of an attacking and facilitating PG, and is the person I want Rose to evolve into. CP3 is too passive at times, and doesn't look to score as much as Isiah did.

If anything, Rose is the PG who's most set up to become Isiah. Surrounded by a strong defensive team, strong connection to the second most valuable player to the team who is a wild and colorful character who oozes hustle, energy and defense, and demanded double teams on a frequent basis.

CP3 >>>>>>> Rose

Get over it!

[Tenchi Ryu]

Isiah was much streakier as a shooter, and CP3 is also more impressive to me as a ball handler and passer. CP3 is more ball dominant, though, and that can be a problem with building around a point guard. Isiah used to play off the ball more than CP3 and sometimes the guard positions were interchangeable with Dumars running the point.

But his team was also much different. The Pistons weren't really a typical superstar team, they didn't rely the same one or two players every night. Depending on who was hot, they'd go to Isiah, Dumars, Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson or James Edwards as the go to guy for that stretch or night.
Which is exactly why I say Rose is following the Isiah blueprint. He has the skillset, team, and attacking nature.

[Tenchi Ryu]

CP3 >>>>>>> Rose

Get over it!
ROSE > Rondo

Get over it!

[Clippersfan86]

So we're overrating the guy who has 2 rings, led a team that stopped the GOAT and made him his bitch, and is a proven legend in the NBA world? This SAME guy would play Magic, ONE on ONE during ASG.

Stop being an idiot. You can't compare the great Pistons dynasty/teams with CP3's Hornets. GTFO dude.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Stop being an idiot. You can't compare the great Pistons dynasty/teams with CP3's Hornets. GTFO dude.
Who gives a fukk about what team CP3 was on, you're the one complaining about Isiah being overrated when his resume speaks for itself. You can GTFO.

[longhornfan1234]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Isiah
5. Kid/Payton- I can't decide.

6. CP3

[Clippersfan86]

Who gives a fukk about what team CP3 was on, you're the one complaining about Isiah being overrated when his resume speaks for itself. You can GTFO.

His resume is helped a hell of a lot by the great teams he was on :facepalm . Individually CP3 and Isiah have been compared for years and ARE very similar in many ways. Try to find the closest statistical match for Isiah.. you'll see it's CP3 easily. Rose is NOTHING like Isiah, sorry to burst your bubble champ.

[1987_Lakers]

CP3 is very similar to Isiah. Difference is Isiah had multiple good years with a great team. Let's see what CP3 can accomplish going forward. He just turned 27 two days ago.

Isiah wishes he had CP3's jump shot.

[Whoah10115]

Chris Paul has Isiah numbers, but he doesn't play anything like Isiah. Also, gotta disagree with ShaqAttack...could make a real case for Isiah Thomas having the best handles in NBA history. I'd probably take him.




I could see Rose being something like Isiah, but Isiah was naturally a more adept passer than Rose is. I can see similarities tho. KJ is another example, tho he's also a better passer.




Chris Paul...who is he like...I have no idea.

[Celtic_Pride]

ROSE > Rondo

Get over it!

http://sportsfiends.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/rr-with-champion-cup-of-nba-2007-08-rajon-rondo-11592534-340-563.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

Chris Paul has Isiah numbers, but he doesn't play anything like Isiah. Also, gotta disagree with ShaqAttack...could make a real case for Isiah Thomas having the best handles in NBA history. I'd probably take him.




I could see Rose being something like Isiah, but Isiah was naturally a more adept passer than Rose is. I can see similarities tho. KJ is another example, tho he's also a better passer.




Chris Paul...who is he like...I have no idea.

CP3 has his own unique game (all the greats do) but in terms of production he's a very close match to Isiah. In 08-09 people were calling him Isiah with a better jumper.

[Tenchi Ryu]

His resume is helped a hell of a lot by the great teams he was on :facepalm . Individually CP3 and Isiah have been compared for years and ARE very similar in many ways. Try to find the closest statistical match for Isiah.. you'll see it's CP3 easily. Rose is NOTHING like Isiah, sorry to burst your bubble champ.
Is that why Isiah and Rose spent time talking to each other over the summer with Isiah giving him pointers? Didn't see CP3 going to him. So like I said, GTFO
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagobulls/post/_/id/7082/isiah-admires-roses-championship-mindset

[1987_Lakers]

Chris Paul has Isiah numbers, but he doesn't play anything like Isiah. Also, gotta disagree with ShaqAttack...could make a real case for Isiah Thomas having the best handles in NBA history. I'd probably take him.

Both CP3 and Isiah have all-time great handles so that is arguable. Both are similar in a sense, they are both extremely competitive & they can both take over a game with scoring. I give the advantage to CP3 when it comes to shooting and defense though.

[Miserio]

ROSE > Rondo

Get over it!
Yes. The best point guard in the game is Derrick Rose but he's no Isiah. He's more like a mini-Lebron, a guy who just overpowers everyone at his position being too strong and too fast for his peers. Isiah was diferent, he was pure talent, a great shooter that when needed gave the point guard duties to Dumars and ran through screens, receive and make the shot wherever he was.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Chris Paul has Isiah numbers, but he doesn't play anything like Isiah. Also, gotta disagree with ShaqAttack...could make a real case for Isiah Thomas having the best handles in NBA history. I'd probably take him.




I could see Rose being something like Isiah, but Isiah was naturally a more adept passer than Rose is. I can see similarities tho. KJ is another example, tho he's also a better passer.




Chris Paul...who is he like...I have no idea.
Agree completely. CP3 is a damn good player, but he's not comparible to Isiah at all skillset wise. They play entirely different.

[longhornfan1234]

Yes. The best point guard in the game is Derrick Rose but he's no Isiah. He's more like a mini-Lebron, a guy who just overpowers everyone at his position being too strong and too fast for his peers. Isiah was diferent, he was pure talent, a great shooter that when needed gave the point guard duties to Dumars and ran through screens, receive and make the shot wherever he was.

:coleman:


CP3 says stop it.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Yes. The best point guard in the game is Derrick Rose but he's no Isiah. He's more like a mini-Lebron, a guy who just overpowers everyone at his position being too strong and too fast for his peers. Isiah was diferent, he was pure talent, a great shooter that when needed gave the point guard duties to Dumars and ran through screens, receive and make the shot wherever he was.
Rose IMO is developing in to that. He was much more of a facilitator this year compared to his MVP year. He still relied on his athleticism at times, but had a better feel for the game, setting up teammates. One of his favorites was setting up the pick and pop with Boozer. And with this ACL injury, I can see Rose trying to improve his shooting more.

[Tenchi Ryu]

:coleman:


CP3 says stop it.
At the beginning of the year before Rose got hit with the injury curse, there were STRONG evenly divided debates between Rose and CP3 as best PG, especially after Rose beat him in December. But unfortunately, CP3 was able to shine while Rose was forced to sit on the bench and never really show his improvements. But no doubt, he was definitely a better player than last year, which is what I feel most are using to critic Rose.

Hell, even the game where he tore his ACL, he was 1 assist and 1 rebound away from a triple double. He would have made some serious noise this postseason if he didn't hurt himself, And that sucks.

[Whoah10115]

Both CP3 and Isiah have all-time great handles so that is arguable. Both are similar in a sense, they are both extremely competitive & they can both take over a game with scoring. I give the advantage to CP3 when it comes to shooting and defense though.




Agreed. But even the way they handle the rock is different. Paul is smooth and in control, with suave body feints.



Isiah Thomas played with a constant quick dribble, hard feints, like he's playing at the park. His game is a lot more direct and unfiltered.




I don't see Rose ever having anything near the passing ability of Isiah, but I think his game will end up being..not more refined..but I think he plays within an offense much more than Thomas did.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Which is exactly why I say Rose is following the Isiah blueprint. He has the skillset, team, and attacking nature.

Well, the team is similar in that they're great defensively and on the boards, but Rose is the go to guy no matter what on Chicago. They don't have the same ride the hot hand approach that Detroit had, partially due to personnel. Rose doesn't really remind me of Isiah that much, he's more athletic, looks a bit bigger, and he's a better finisher, but Isiah was a better passer, better off the ball and a better shooter.

I did see some improvements with his passing and running the offense in general when he was out on the court this season, though. But that's not the main thing that makes Rose great, imo.


Chris Paul has Isiah numbers, but he doesn't play anything like Isiah.

Well, Paul's numbers are quite a bit more impressive to me. Isiah put up huge numbers in the mid 80's when the league was run and gun, and Detroit hadn't slowed their pace down yet. But when Isiah was winning, his numbers were still impressive, and still could've been better, but Detroit was unusual playing at a pace similar to mid/late 90's and 00's teams, and obviously as I mentioned, they had a lot of different go to scorers and Dumars would handle the ball sometimes, so he wasn't as ball-dominant.

Though I do feel numbers are going up for PG again, not because of run and gun, but because of the more recent rules, and it becoming more of a perimeter game with point guards dominating the ball more.

I actually use to think Isiah was better than I do now. due to his greatest moments being replayed on NBA's Greatest Games, and then seeing his mid 80's stats and the rings as "the man". But seeing a lot more games, whether it was entire playoff runs, or random regular season games, and understanding how those championship Piston teams were built and succeeded have changed my opinion.

Regardless, I respect Isiah, and have no problem with those who rank him higher than I do. A lot of knowledgeable fans, players and coaches do, so it's just my opinion, and I recognize that.

[Clippersfan86]

Shaqattack... one thing you implied though is Isiah played on a loaded/great team. Which was my point. Mentioning championships etc when comparing 27 year old CP3 to Isiah is stupid.

[magnax1]

Paul's regular season #s are more impressive, but Isiah was more impressive in playoff series in his peak. He averaged 25-5-10 from 85-87 in the playoffs. He really dominated those series, and often times wasn't even that ball dominant for long stretches, which really impressed me.
I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.
Also, people just aren't giving Nash enough credit in this discussion. 19 points and 12 assists on a league leading 65 TS% is insane. Right up there with the best offensive players ever.

[Whoah10115]

Paul's regular season #s are more impressive, but Isiah was more impressive in playoff series in his peak. He averaged 25-5-10 from 85-87 in the playoffs. He really dominated those series, and often times wasn't even that ball dominant for long stretches, which really impressed me.
I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.
Also, people just aren't giving Nash enough credit in this discussion. 19 points and 12 assists on a league leading 65 TS% is insane. Right up there with the best offensive players ever.




Well said.

[Clippersfan86]

Paul's regular season #s are more impressive, but Isiah was more impressive in playoff series in his peak. He averaged 25-5-10 from 85-87 in the playoffs. He really dominated those series, and often times wasn't even that ball dominant for long stretches, which really impressed me.
I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.
Also, people just aren't giving Nash enough credit in this discussion. 19 points and 12 assists on a league leading 65 TS% is insane. Right up there with the best offensive players ever.

His offensive rating is the best in NBA history during peak Suns years :bowdown: /

[1987_Lakers]

Paul's regular season #s are more impressive, but Isiah was more impressive in playoff series in his peak. He averaged 25-5-10 from 85-87 in the playoffs. He really dominated those series, and often times wasn't even that ball dominant for long stretches, which really impressed me.
I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.
Also, people just aren't giving Nash enough credit in this discussion. 19 points and 12 assists on a league leading 65 TS% is insane. Right up there with the best offensive players ever.

I don't think he lost anything. The stats aren't as impressive because Detroit started to play at a slower pace and he became less ball dominant. Isiah was only 28 when Detroit won its 2nd championship.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.

Based on what? He didn't have any major injuries yet and he was 26-28 years old from '88-'90 when the Pistons made 3 consecutive finals, well, he turned 29 during the '90 playoffs. But that's exactly when most players are usually at their best.

[Go Getter]

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
John Stockton

Were all better in their primes. Can arguably throw Parker in there as well. But 07 Steve Nash was the best season by a PG since Magic.
TP's finals MVP is better than anything Nash has ever done.

The GOAT season by a PG should end in a title no?

[yobore]

Paul's regular season #s are more impressive, but Isiah was more impressive in playoff series in his peak. He averaged 25-5-10 from 85-87 in the playoffs. He really dominated those series, and often times wasn't even that ball dominant for long stretches, which really impressed me.
I've always said you can't judge how good Isiah was off of those championship teams. He had lost quite a bit by that time.
Also, people just aren't giving Nash enough credit in this discussion. 19 points and 12 assists on a league leading 65 TS% is insane. Right up there with the best offensive players ever.
Isiah has won more, but Paul's playoff #s are pretty dam impressive too. In fact, right now he has the highest playoff PER of any player in history except Jordan and Mikan. Yeah he's lost 3 of the 4 series he's been in but besides the Nuggets series where he and his team were unhealthy and shouldn't have made the playoffs anyways, he was insanely good in all of them.

[magnax1]

I don't think he lost anything. The stats aren't as impressive because Detroit started to play at a slower pace and he became less ball dominant. Isiah was only 28 when Detroit won its 2nd championship.
He was out of the league at 32 though, so it's not like it isn't clear that he didn't drop off quickly. His game was pretty heavily reliant on athleticism and ball handling. He never had a fantastic jumpshot. He was also clearly a worse defender by the championship teams, he turned the ball over just as much as years before despite not holding as much, he scored less efficiently despite considerably less defensive attention. I've heard this argument a lot before, but it just seems to be contrary to everything I've watched of him, and pretty much every other indicator.

Based on what?
From watching him

[Clippersfan86]

Isiah has won more, but Paul's playoff #s are pretty dam impressive too. In fact, right now he has the highest playoff PER of any player in history except Jordan and Mikan. Yeah he's lost 3 of the 4 series he's been in but besides the Nuggets series where he and his team were unhealthy and shouldn't have made the playoffs anyways, he was insanely good in all of them.

Yup :applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was out of the league at 32 though, so it's not like it isn't clear that he didn't drop off quickly. His game was pretty heavily reliant on athleticism and ball handling. He never had a fantastic jumpshot. He was also clearly a worse defender by the championship teams, he turned the ball over just as much as years before despite not holding as much, he scored less efficiently despite considerably less defensive attention. I've heard this argument a lot before, but it just seems to be contrary to everything I've watched of him, and pretty much every other indicator.

From watching him

I think the decline later was due to the injuries in '91, he came back before he was fully recovered to play in the '91 playoffs.

From the mid 80's games I've seen, I don't see much of a difference, the main difference to me is the team and the style of play.

As far as scoring less efficiently, well you can't read much into numbers when comparing mid 80's Isiah and championship Isiah. Defense had improved, he had less freedom, and Detroit went from averaging 104-105 possessions per 48 minutes in a 3 season stretch from '84-'86 to about 10 fewer possessions per game in the championship years at '89-'90.

So numbers really shouldn't be used to back up this case, those factors skew the numbers so much. On a side note, Isiah's greatest accomplishment to me, may be the '90 playoffs when he was shooting well throughout and pretty consistent from round to round. His numbers were impressive too at 21/6/8 on 46 FG%/56 TS%.

I can't see where you're coming from at all with Isiah being a worse defender when he was winning championship teams.

Edit: I will add that I've seen a lot less of mid 80's Isiah, but there are a lot less games available. And I know from your past comments that you started watching in the 90's just like me, so you're just going by whatever old games are available as well.

[magnax1]

As far as scoring less efficiently, well you can't read much into numbers when comparing mid 80's Isiah and championship Isiah. Defense had improved, he had less freedom, and Detroit went from averaging 104-105 possessions per 48 minutes in a 3 season stretch from '84-'86 to about 10 fewer possessions per game in the championship years at '89-'90.
It's not just 84-86 though. There is a difference between 87 and 88, and 88 and 90. Not huge of course, but I think his drop off was pretty steady from 87-93. He was still a good player in 90, but not quite the same. And 87, his team really wasn't that different from his championship teams. Less talented, yes, but still a similar team.
I guess we just disagree, and that's fine. A lot of people do, but I do think he did everything worse. There were games where he looked similar if his jumpshot started to fall, but his quickness and ability to score consistently seemed quite clearly hindered by 89 and 90 compared to his earlier self. When he had that good playoff run in 90, he got really hot from long range, but still couldn't tear apart defenses at will. Just for a comparison, in 90 Isiah shot under 50 TS% 39 times, while he shot under that mark in 86 23 times. That to me shows what the difference was. Ability to consistently score efficiently because his quickness dropped off. And he actually attempted less Field goals in 86 then 90. Yes they did play slower (I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes), but there was also a lot less pressure on him.
Also, people say he became less ball dominant in his later years, but he never really had a problem with ball dominance to me. One of the least ball dominant great PGs almost every year of his career. He was always good at working off the ball.



I will add that I've seen a lot less of mid 80's Isiah, but there are a lot less games available. And I know from your past comments that you started watching in the 90's just like me, so you're just going by whatever old games are available as well.
True, but there is still an alright number of games. Most of his 87 conference finals is out there (if not all) Some of his 85 Celtics series, I think some of the series with the Knicks in 84 (not that he was that amazing in that series)

[bizil]

If someone said CP3 is the third best PG in terms of peak value since the days of Magic, then I wouldn't argue one bit. I think since 1981, that the two best PG's have been Magic and Isiah. In terms of peak value AND their careers as a whole. Both had that that X factor I want from my PG's. They fufill the premium duties of PG (droppin dimes, leadership, floor general) along with alpha dog scoring. Magic and Isiah could takeover a game as well as most of the great scorers in the L. Either when needed or when they damn well felt like it. Since 1981, I think Paul, D Will, Payton, Nash, KJ, and Tim Hardaway are up there in that regard. So Paul in many ways is my definition of the perfect PG in terms of offensive dominance.

U have sleeper guys as well like this such as a Mark Price. Penny as great as he was didn't get to show the passing brilliance to match his scoring, even though Penny was an excellent passer. I just happen to think he was NARROWLY more of a SG-SF type who could also play the point. I think Marbury was closer to this kind of PG as well than many people think. Steph had the rep for a shoot first PG, but I tend to disagree. And of course historically guys like Big O, Tiny, and Frazier were my type of perfect PG.

Guys like Kidd, Cousy, Stockton, Rondo, Mark Jackson, Mo Cheeks, etc. are epic at the premium PG facets. But they aren't the alpha dog type guys who can consistently play that kind of role when needed or at will. Guys like Francis, Arenas, Rose, Parker, Westbrook, Calvin Murphy, etc. are flat out scoring PG's or maybe even flat out combo guards. They are great scorers and alpha dog level and very good passers. But the way they see the game and passing ability isn't on the level of guys great at the premium PG skills.

The guys with the great premium PG skills have a feel and flow to the way they play that u can detect if u are a student of the game. So if one thinks Rose is a better player than CP3 then I can dig that. But in terms of who is the BETTER PG, I would say CP3 is better.

[D-Wade316]

There, I said it. *runs away before stockton shitstorm
:applause: :bowdown:

Isiah = Overrated

[nathanjizzle]

:coleman:


CP3 says stop it.

sorry but cp3 cant say anything about derrick rose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8FAmOjKF_k

[Horde of Temujin]

He is indeed.

[blablabla]

isiah
stockton
payton
nash
kidd

[IGOTGAME]

Isiah wishes he had CP3's jump shot.

CP3 wishes he had Isiah's quickness and ability to get by his man 1 v. 1...Plus, guy has been shut down in the playoffs twice already.

[chips93]

CP3 wishes he had Isiah's quickness and ability to get by his man 1 v. 1...Plus, guy has been shut down in the playoffs twice already.

just as isiah wishes he had cp3's shooting, pick and roll ability and defense

[IGotACoolStory]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/Rubxqub/NashSmellsLiketheVault.gif

[AirTupac]

just as isiah wishes he had cp3's shooting, pick and roll ability and defense

Just as cp3 wishes he had rings

[chips93]

Just as cp3 wishes he had rings

:rolleyes:

[It's A VC3!!!]

Even if Jason Kidd and Steve Nash never existed, this wouldn't be true. He's a great player but let's be real here. To be honest, he's not even the best PG in the league.

[Soultrane]

Even if Jason Kidd and Steve Nash never existed, this wouldn't be true. He's a great player but let's be real here. To be honest, he's not even the best PG in the league.

To be honest, you are wrong.

[chips93]

Even if Jason Kidd and Steve Nash never existed, this wouldn't be true. He's a great player but let's be real here. To be honest, he's not even the best PG in the league.

damn, you were right about that hateraid

[It's A VC3!!!]

damn, you were right about that hateraid

Put Rondo on the Clippers and they are the best in the West. That's my opinion, and it doesn't devalue CP. Paul is amazing. He can take over games, and has a fire within him that Kobe has and LeBron has. That's true, but in terms of a facilitator, I would prefer Rondo. Watching his games lately has been a blast. This guy knows how and where to find people. With a team of shooters and athletic dunkers like the Clippers, Rondo would be better suited then CP3.

[chips93]

Put Rondo on the Clippers and they are the best in the West. That's my opinion, and it doesn't devalue CP. Paul is amazing. He can take over games, and has a fire within him that Kobe has and LeBron has. That's true, but in terms of a facilitator, I would prefer Rondo. Watching his games lately has been a blast. This guy knows how and where to find people. With a team of shooters and athletic dunkers like the Clippers, Rondo would be better suited then CP3.

i think paul is the better facilitator, but its definitely close, but in terms of scoring, paul blows rondo out of the water. both are good on the boards, and rondo is better defensively imo, but id definitely take cp3. in crunch time its not even close. rondo gets cautious, while paul absolutely takes over.

[qrich]

Put Rondo on the Clippers and they are the best in the West. That's my opinion, and it doesn't devalue CP. Paul is amazing. He can take over games, and has a fire within him that Kobe has and LeBron has. That's true, but in terms of a facilitator, I would prefer Rondo. Watching his games lately has been a blast. This guy knows how and where to find people. With a team of shooters and athletic dunkers like the Clippers, Rondo would be better suited then CP3.

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[Owl]

How is Isaiah only mentioned once in this thread?
Because it says since Magic and by the time Magic left Isiah wasn't really that good.

That aside Isiah was never an MVP candidate (best year 5th in MVP vote share, then 8th). Paul was and arguably should have won in 09.

ShaqAttack put it nicely

Isiah was much streakier as a shooter,

Streaky is true but that sentence could read "worse" instead and still be true. There's a huge disparity in turnovers too, especially when you consider how central to his teams Paul has been.

Certainly in terms of peak Paul is up there with Magic (and Oscar), injuries cost him effectively 2 years of peak/prime level production but he was still arguably the best pg in the league (yes, I know Rose got MVP), and this year he has been back near, if not at his best again.

[Bigsmoke]

yeah CP3 is looking more and more like his 2008 self.

[DonD13]

let's not get carried away

[TheBluest]

ROSE > Rondo

Get over it!


lulz NO!

[TheBluest]

If you look at the numbers CP3 is basically a more efficient scoring Isiah. I think people are overrating Isiah and underrating CP3 right now. CP3 will no doubt finish a top 3 PG of all time if he puts up about 3-4 more seasons at these numbers and the Clippers have playoff success.


No Zeke was an absolute terror look no further than the game he an Bernard went mano-a-mano

These 2 are comparable and if CP3 can manage to get a ring before it's all said and done being a main guy eventually he could surpass him. As of right now he's closed the gap down the stretch pretty much air tight.

[pauk]

CP3 is the best PG since.......... Oscar, Magic, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Walt Frazier...

[Miserio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcGqJ1tAClw

[lbj23clutch]

No suprise here. CP3 is the best point guard since Magic, just from a basketball standpoint. Of course he isn't as accomplished as a J-Kidd or a Nash yet. But in terms of basketball ability on the court, he is clearly the best. I can't remember a point guard that can just take over a game this good at anytime during crunch time. The dude's killer instinct is crazy. Reminds me of MJ's mentality.

[tmacattack33]

CP3 before injury was the the best since Magic.

Right now, he's just not super explosive like he used to be. He is still amazing though and is the best in the league today...but prime Stockton would probably be better and Nash would be right there with him.

[KingBeasley08]

CP3 will end up as one of the top 3 PGs ever :bowdown:

[Simple Jack]

Isiah has won more, but Paul's playoff #s are pretty dam impressive too. In fact, right now he has the highest playoff PER of any player in history except Jordan and Mikan. Yeah he's lost 3 of the 4 series he's been in but besides the Nuggets series where he and his team were unhealthy and shouldn't have made the playoffs anyways, he was insanely good in all of them.

Link?

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's not just 84-86 though. There is a difference between 87 and 88, and 88 and 90. Not huge of course, but I think his drop off was pretty steady from 87-93. He was still a good player in 90, but not quite the same. And 87, his team really wasn't that different from his championship teams. Less talented, yes, but still a similar team.

Oh, well, I was referring to that mid 80's stretch more when his numbers were much better, and the Pistons success wasn't the same yet for obvious reasons.

The '87 team was still different in quite a few ways, Dantley was still there, and while he was there when they almost or perhaps should've won(and I rarely bring up calls deciding series) in '88, Detroit improved noticeably after they traded Dantley for Aguirre. Probably because Aguirre was willing to take a lesser role despite being younger than Dantley and coming off big scoring years and more team success in Dallas than Dantley had in Utah. Aguirre was also a better outside shooter, and didn't hold the ball as much.

Dumars also hadn't developed nearly as much by '87 compared to the championship years, and Detroit wasn't quite the same stylistically yet. They didn't completely have the same identity.


I guess we just disagree, and that's fine. A lot of people do, but I do think he did everything worse. There were games where he looked similar if his jumpshot started to fall, but his quickness and ability to score consistently seemed quite clearly hindered by 89 and 90 compared to his earlier self. When he had that good playoff run in 90, he got really hot from long range, but still couldn't tear apart defenses at will.

I'm not finding it hard for you to consider Isiah better in the mid 80's, it's rare for a player to be at their best at that age without major injuries between then, but it does happen. I think it's just the difference you think there was between mid 80's Isiah and '89/'90 Isiah, where you go from placing him extremely high on the PG list, to even with Dumars. Not that I find the latter statement that far off, but just a difference that large between the 2 periods is something I don't see.

But yeah, it's fine to disagree, it just does puzzle me to some degree.


Just for a comparison, in 90 Isiah shot under 50 TS% 39 times, while he shot under that mark in 86 23 times. That to me shows what the difference was. Ability to consistently score efficiently because his quickness dropped off. And he actually attempted less Field goals in 86 then 90. Yes they did play slower (I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes), but there was also a lot less pressure on him.

Well, this is where I don't see a convincing argument. I respect your opinion, and the numbers can certainly mean something to you, but imo, they're not a convincing part of the argument.

As far as less pressure? Well, I disagree considering they went from run and gun in the mid 80's(remember the record setting game vs Denver) to a slowed down game to an extreme extent compared to their peers. I think that numbers will be inflated because of the easier baskets mixed in during a wide open game as opposed to a slowed down half court game.

I don't want to completely disregard 80's numbers, but assist numbers stand out(Isiah never approached 14 apg again), and in some cases, scoring seemed inflated due to the transition baskets, and when you run that much, defenses just aren't the same for obvious reasons. Some scorer's numbers benefited too, more in extreme cases like Denver with Alex English(when I watch his games, I'm sometimes surprised at how much he scored), or Vandeweghe as well as Kelly Tripucka on the mid 80's Pistons.


True, but there is still an alright number of games. Most of his 87 conference finals is out there (if not all) Some of his 85 Celtics series, I think some of the series with the Knicks in 84 (not that he was that amazing in that series)

Well, again, I was referring exclusively to that mid 80's period with the bigger numbers. The '87 Pistons were getting closer to the championship teams, but somewhere in between.

As far as games, there are also some random regular season games mixed in, whether it's vs Chicago in Jordan's rookie year, the big match ups vs Boston, Philly or LA, a few of those are also out there from '84-'86, and that record-setting game vs Denver from '84 for example.

It still does pale in comparison to what's available for the later years, but I will go over those games again, and look for more differences in Isiah's own game soon.

[Droid101]

Link?
Right here Sonny. Mike and George are at 28.6 and 28.51 respectively:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html (Note, Chris Paul isn't on this list yet because he hasn't played enough games to qualify)

Chris Paul's career playoff PER is 27.2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html

For reference, LeBron James' is 26.39

[Lebron23]

Isiah Thomas is rolling in his grave.

[ZaaaaaH]

Isiah Thomas is rolling in his grave.


CP3 > IT


Also you guys are all wrong LeBron has been the best PG since Magic.

[hawke812]

Pretty sure Lebron is the best PG since Magic...I mean better than Magic.

[Simple Jack]

Right here Sonny. Mike and George are at 28.6 and 28.51 respectively:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html (Note, Chris Paul isn't on this list yet because he hasn't played enough games to qualify)

Chris Paul's career playoff PER is 27.2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html

For reference, LeBron James' is 26.39


:applause: :bowdown: