If LeBron win two titles - is he top 5 all-time?

[millwad]

As the topic says, is he?

His dominance since the start of his career is really amazing and even though I'm not a big fan of his personality no one can say that he's not anything but amazing.

I was thinking, I already consider LeBron as a top 15 player of all-time and with 2 rings along with him dominating, should there be any doubt regarding LeBron being a top 5 player?

[CardiacKemba]

As the topic says, is he?

His dominance since the start of his career is really amazing and even though I'm not a big fan of his personality no one can say that he's not anything but amazing.

I was thinking, I already consider LeBron as a top 15 player of all-time and with 2 rings along with him dominating, should there be any doubt regarding LeBron being a top 5 player?

Let's start with 1. Then let the arguing begin. ISH will non stop crash for 6 months if the Heat win it in June.

[Harison]

No, even if Lebron wins 5 titles, he still wouldnt be Top5. Bird and Magic would be similarly accomplished with less bad baggage. Then we have actually dominant Dream and Shaq, then Timmy with Kobe.

With two titles, Lebron wouldnt even be in Top10.

[maybeshewill13]

He passes Kobe with 2 rings, especially if he wins one more MVP and a finals MVP or two.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

He passes Kobe with 2 rings, especially if he wins one more MVP and a finals MVP or two.

lol

[TheFan]

If he gets two more MVPs and 3-4 championships... id give him a shot at best individual talent in the history.

I said Individual Talent

[Kews1]

i dont know where he would be, but he is in the conversation. Even with his MVP's alone nobody can seriously say this guy isn't great. 3 MVPS? only Kareem, MJ, Russell, Wilt can claim more than that and hes equal with Moses, Bird & Magic. Hes in that league, he is that good, people don't just win MVP's for nothing they mean a whole lot and the company that he is with is testament to that. If he picks up no rings over his career than hes never going to be considered close to the top and rightfully so even if he was as good or better than the players above him, but if he picks up championships then hes a no-doubt top 10. If he picks up a few championships and one or two more MVP's he will climb high in the lists he has. Anybody that says other wise is just a blatant hater discrediting the fact that he is one of the best. All that he needs to cement that is championships.

[arifgokcen]

If he wins two titles with two FMVP award he will be ahead of bird.Best SF in history.So he will be in top 10.However to be in top 5 he needs 3FMVPs and another MVP award.If he wins 4FMVPs and 5MVP awards i would put him top 3 behind Kareem or just ahead of kareem.However one title only top 12

[alenleomessi]

3rd after Jordan and Kareem

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Regular season MVP's mean f**k-all.

The post season is where a players legacy is built and for the first 8 years of his career it aint looking so good for Lebron. He should get a little slack because he was drafted by Cleveland and not the Lakers Celtics or Spurs, etc. However, his post season disappearing acts are hard to excuse.

His reputation also suffers a little because he left his to to join up with Wade and Bosh. The way it was done was really tacky and it made him look really bad. Dude is an amazing talent with a lot of baggage that has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth.

In my opinion it's going to take a hell of a lot to erase all that.

[maybeshewill13]

lol

Deal with it. Lebron's a better all-round player than Kobe ever was, just doesn't have the rings or FMVP to go with it. If he gets a couple of those it's obvious who is ranked higher.

But.. who knows if he'll get those? We'll have to wait and see.

[TheNaturalWR]

No, even if Lebron wins 5 titles, he still wouldnt be Top5. Bird and Magic would be similarly accomplished with less bad baggage. Then we have actually dominant Dream and Shaq, then Timmy with Kobe.

With two titles, Lebron wouldnt even be in Top10.

Easily the dumbest post of the year.

[Rnbizzle]

When it's all said and done Lebron will have a decent case for GOAT, with the consensus probable being top 3 or something.

[pegasus]

As someone had said before, Lebron has won more hypothetical championships than anyone else in the history of the league.

[midatlantic09]

If he wins two titles with two FMVP award he will be ahead of bird.Best SF in history.So he will be in top 10.However to be in top 5 he needs 3FMVPs and another MVP award.If he wins 4FMVPs and 5MVP awards i would put him top 3 behind Kareem or just ahead of kareem.However one title only top 12

Lebron is already ahead of Bird as the best SF of all time. The only edge Bird has is that he's won multiple championships, but that has more to do with the team as a whole and not individual players. For example, if Bird spent his entire career playing for the Warriors/Clippers/Bullets/Pacers in the 80s, he wouldn't have a single championship and probably wouldn't be on anyone's top 15 all-time list (based on individual stats and accomplishments alone) .

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Deal with it. Lebron's a better all-round player than Kobe ever was

That is your OPINION homeboy and a lot of people don't share it. Lebron has a lot of baggage as I pointed out in an earlier post. He is maybe the greatest TALENT in history. However, he's not a great shooter and he hasn't really developed much in the way of a post game. Like Shaq he gets by on his physicality. How many years will he play at that God level? How much are people going to hold "The Decision" against him? His talent is obvious to see but there is a lot of question marks about this guy and the years are starting to pile up. Suceeding in the post season a couple of times doesn't erase everything that came before it.

Lebron could end up as the greatest of all time but lets not star crowning him the king of the world behind a couple of hypothetical titles with the super friends.

[bwink23]

Regular season MVP's mean f**k-all.

The post season is where a players legacy is built and for the first 8 years of his career it aint looking so good for Lebron. He should get a little slack because he was drafted by Cleveland and not the Lakers Celtics or Spurs, etc. However, his post season disappearing acts are hard to excuse.

His reputation also suffers a little because he left his to to join up with Wade and Bosh. The way it was done was really tacky and it made him look really bad. Dude is an amazing talent with a lot of baggage that has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth.

In my opinion it's going to take a hell of a lot to erase all that.


You'd be surprised how LITTLE it takes to erase it.....:coleman:

[pegasus]

Lebron is already ahead of Bird as the best SF of all time. The only edge Bird has is that he's won multiple championships, but that has more to do with the team as a whole and not individual players. For example, if Bird spent his entire career playing for the Golden State Warriors in the 80s, he wouldn't have a single championship and probably wouldn't be on anyone's top 20 of all time player list.
No on in their right mind would believe that.

[bwink23]

People aren't HATING on Lebron, as much as they are WAITING.

[midatlantic09]

No on in their right mind would believe that.

Compare Lebron and Bird's stats. If you do so, leaving team accomplishments aside, it's pretty clear who's the better, more efficient player.

On an individual level, as far as overall dominance goes, Lebron is probably top 5 all-time right now. The only reason he's not considered top 5 all-time by the majority of people is because he lacks the team accomplishments.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Lebron is already ahead of Bird as the best SF of all time. The only edge Bird has is that he's won multiple championships, but that has more to do with the team as a whole and not individual players. For example, if Bird spent his entire career playing for the Golden State Warriors in the 80s, he wouldn't have a single championship and probably wouldn't be on anyone's top 15 all-time list.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

I understand that basketball is a team sport and that not everyone gets drafted by LA or Boston. However, most people that acually saw Bird play when he was at his best understand how truly great he was. Talent isn't the same thing as greatness. Stats aren't the same thing as greatness.

Lebron might be the most talented player ever. He might have the best physical skills ever. The fastest the strongest, jump the highest, etc. Unfortunately for him and you, that's not how it works in the real NBA.

[bwink23]

In the past, Jordan at one point was considered the game's greatest singular talent and best player in the NBA. He was often criticized for not being able to raise his team's level of play. People doubted if the game's greatest scorer could win a championship after 6 years. It took ONE RING to change all of that.

:coleman:

[Quickening]

As someone had said before, Lebron has won more hypothetical championships than anyone else in the history of the league.

Probably because Lebron is the most talented all round basketball player ever....

[bwink23]

Probably because Lebron is the most talented all round basketball player ever....

Jordan has the highest career Player Efficiency Rating in NBA history.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Compare Lebron and Bird's stats. If you do so, leaving team accomplishments aside, it's pretty clear who's the better, more efficient player.

Efficiency is great

But, it's a results oriented world we live in and Lebron has under-acheived in that area for 8 FRICKIN YEARS.

[bwink23]

Efficiency is great

But, it's a results oriented world we live in and Lebron has under-acheived in that area for 8 FRICKIN YEARS.


Lebron was #1 draft pick to a shitty team....championship-caliber teams usually aren't built overnight....Jordan didn't win until his 7th season.

[Rnbizzle]

Efficiency is great

But, it's a results oriented world we live in and Lebron has under-acheived in that area for 8 FRICKIN YEARS.
Another contender for most retarded post of the year. He has actually made that Cleveland team overachieve year after year. Only last year they fell short.

[Quickening]

Jordan has the highest career Player Efficiency Rating in NBA history.

WTF does that have to do with what I said? You're saying the most talented players always have the highest efficiency.....:facepalm

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Jordan has the highest career Player Efficiency Rating in NBA history.

I think Kobe is a "better" or "greater" player than Lebron but Michael Jordan wipes his ass with Lebron.

[bwink23]

WTF does that have to do with what I said? You're saying the most talented players always have the highest efficiency.....:facepalm

You said Lebron was the best all-around player...i beg to differ...

[swi7ch]

yes

[Quickening]

You said Lebron was the best all-around player...i beg to differ...

I don't care what you think, thats my opinion... efficiency is irrelevent to all around talent....

[midatlantic09]

Efficiency is great

But, it's a results oriented world we live in and Lebron has under-acheived in that area for 8 FRICKIN YEARS.

Efficiency is all that matters and he's on the same level as Jordan in that department. His lack of team accomplishments says nothing about his talent or skill as an individual player. Rather, it says the GM's of the teams he's played for didn't surround him with the talent required to win a championship.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Another contender for most retarded post of the year. He has actually made that Cleveland team overachieve year after year. Only last year they fell short.

:biggums:

True he did a lot without a lot of help in Cleveland but His disappearing act during crunch time of a lot of these playoff series weighs heavily in a lot of peoples minds.

Like I said broseph, it's a results driven world we live in.

[Rnbizzle]

:biggums:

True he did a lot without a lot of help in Cleveland but His disappearing act during crunch time of a lot of these playoff series weighs heavily in a lot of peoples minds.

Like I said broseph, it's a results driven world we live in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Px-jPm_TU

People have such selective memories..

[Kobe 4 The Win]

This thread is interesting in the respect that it shows th edifferent things that fans value about players.

Stats, skill set, efficiency, talent, regular season MVP's, championships, etc.

A lot of people are wrong but it's interesting.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Px-jPm_TU

People have such selective memories..

I like Lebron, I'm not trying to shit on him or take away from some of the great things that he has done. I'm looking at the whole picture dude. For every playoff clip like this I can show you another one. Him in a daze, standing in a corner behind the 3 point line while a playoff or NBA finals was being decided.

Who's being selective here? You show one great preformance like it's supposed to erase everything that happened before and after it. Lettuce be reality here Bro-Montana.

[trooper]

Compare Lebron and Bird's stats. If you do so, leaving team accomplishments aside, it's pretty clear who's the better, more efficient player.


Pauk is that you?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

That would make him top-20, imo. Maybe top 15.
He needs to win 2 fMVPs just to negate his other two EPICALLY bad Finals performances.
Right now, he is at -2

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Compare Lebron and Bird's stats. If you do so, leaving team accomplishments aside, it's pretty clear who's the better, more efficient player.

:facepalm
If stats determined the better player, you MAY be right. Fortunately, they do not. To wit: 4th quarters of important games...like the Finals.
I'm guessing that you were not watching the NBA when Bird was playing.

[midatlantic09]

This thread is interesting in the respect that it shows th edifferent things that fans value about players.

Stats, skill set, efficiency, talent, regular season MVP's, championships, etc.

A lot of people are wrong but it's interesting.

For me, team accomplishments don't carry much weight when deciding how good an individual player is. Sure, it raises their stock, but the individual accomplishments must carry a lot more weight because the individual player is being evaluated; not his team.

Robert Horry has 7 championships, but those championships don't say anything about him as an individual player. They simply state that he was a member of a very good team that had all the right pieces (and coaches) to win the championship that year.

[bwink23]

This thread is interesting in the respect that it shows th edifferent things that fans value about players.

Stats, skill set, efficiency, talent, regular season MVP's, championships, etc.

A lot of people are wrong but it's interesting.


Take all that, put it in a blender and who tastes the best.

[Quickening]

Take all that, put it in a blender and who tastes the best.

So if Micheal Jordan had stayed on a scrubby team his whole career... would he not be regarded as the best ever, as he shown he couldn't win a championship without a stacked team.

[Kiddlovesnets]

He needs at least 5 titles to be top 5 all time, unless he averages monster stats like Wilt did. This way he might be fine with 2-3 titles only.

[Rnbizzle]

He needs at least 5 titles to be top 5 all time, unless he averages monster stats like Wilt did. This way he might be fine with 2-3 titles only.
Ridiculous.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Ridiculous.

Mind elaborating?

[JellyBean]

Nope. Even if Lebron won two rings, I just can't see him being placed in the top 5. I already consider him within the top 20. But top 5...nope.

[creepingdeath]

No, even if Lebron wins 5 titles, he still wouldnt be Top5.[ Bird and Magic would be similarly accomplished with less bad baggage. Then we have actually dominant Dream and Shaq, then Timmy with Kobe.

With two titles, Lebron wouldnt even be in Top10.
:coleman:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope. Even if Lebron won two rings, I just can't see him being placed in the top 5. I already consider him within the top 20. But top 5...nope.

Well he wont be top 15 or even top 20 if he only has 2 rings.

[Quickening]

Well he wont be top 15 or even top 20 if he only has 2 rings.

STFU...

[Kiddlovesnets]

STFU...

Well Duncan is on the edge of top 10 with 4 rings/3 FMVPs, Kobe is barely a top 10 with 5 rings/2 FMVPs. Lebron with 2 rings and 1-2 FMVPs aint gonna make it to top 15, if he even makes it to top 20.

[Rnbizzle]

Mind elaborating?
Let's make the Kobe comparison. Most people have him around 8 right now, and he'll probable bump up a few more spots once he's done. I don't think people will continue to rate Duncan and Shaq over him. Kobe played with Shaq to get his first bunch of rings, and whether people consider that riding Shaq or being carried or not, it's obvious he wasn't their clear cut best player. So Kobe has 2 rings where it was all on him being the man, getting it done.

Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe is or ever was, let's get that out of the way first. If Lebron can carry his team to 2 or 3 chips while clearly being the best player. He should be ranked higher than Kobe if you ask me.

Most of the kobe stans will only read the part where it says 'Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe is over ever was' so let's forget about Kobe and make a comparison with say, Bird. 3 time champion, 2 time FMVP and overall a little less good stats.

How does that add up? The requirements for Lebron to be considered successful by some of you guys are, as I said, ridiculous.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Well Duncan is on the edge of top 10 with 4 rings/3 FMVPs, Kobe is barely a top 10 with 5 rings/2 FMVPs. Lebron with 2 rings and 1-2 FMVPs aint gonna make it to top 15, if he even makes it to top 20.
Agreed. And that is fairly clear, imo.
He is also hampered by posting the TWO worst Finals performances ever by a "superstar".
With 2 fMVP, I would put him top 20.

[Rnbizzle]

Agreed. And that is fairly clear, imo.
He is also hampered by posting the TWO worst Finals performances ever by a "superstar".
With 2 fMVP, I would put him top 20.
Interested to see where you would rank say Barkley or Karl Malone..

[Kurosawa0]

I'd probably have him somewhere in the 9-12 range.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Interested to see where you would rank say Barkley or Karl Malone..

First of all, there was a team called Chicago Bulls, and a god called Michael Jordan. This is a weak era and not winning 3+ titles is unacceptable for Lebron James if he is considered a top 15 player. Also Barkley and Malone never played in a team with 2 superstar teammates like Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh.

[Quickening]

Well Duncan is on the edge of top 10 with 4 rings/3 FMVPs, Kobe is barely a top 10 with 5 rings/2 FMVPs. Lebron with 2 rings and 1-2 FMVPs aint gonna make it to top 15, if he even makes it to top 20.

Looks at Kobe stats in finals :roll: .... the only reason he is near the top ten is because his played on a stacked team the majority of his career... what did he do in his prime years when his team wasn't so stacked, not much....

[Kiddlovesnets]

Looks at Kobe stats in finals :roll: .... the only reason he is near the top ten is because his played on a stacked team the majority of his career... what did he do in his prime years when his team wasn't so stacked, not much....

Well Lebron is now in a super talented team too, which is why winning 2 titles aint even impressive at all.

[Rnbizzle]

First of all, there was a team called Chicago Bulls, and a god called Michael Jordan. This is a weak era and not winning 3+ titles is unacceptable for Lebron James if he is considered a top 15 player. Also Barkley and Malone never played in a team with 2 superstar teammates like Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh.
Pippen was no scrub either. And now all of a sudden Chris Bosh is a superstar.. Bosh is not a top 20 player.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Pippen was no scrub either. And now all of a sudden Chris Bosh is a superstar.. Bosh is not a top 20 player.

Unless you are talking about top 20 players of all time, otherwise its just :roll:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Interested to see where you would rank say Barkley or Karl Malone..
Also, top 20 players. However, I can put things into context. For example, both Barkley and Malone were playing at the exact same time as MJ's loaded Bulls teams and, thus, got shut out of championships. Also, neither one was known for folding when it mattered most (perhaps Lebron will overcome that stigma).

[coin24]

SOOOOO Lebron winning 2 on a stacked team puts him in the top5???

BUT, Kobe winning 5, with 2 as "the man" but the other 3 on a stacked team dont count?? :confusedshrug:

How do Lebrons count then? The Lebron stans on here are seriously retarded:facepalm :facepalm


But back to reality 5>0:oldlol:

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron
Wade
Kobe
Rose
Durant
Westbrook
Dirk
Rondo
Melo
Deron
Paul
Howard
Parker
Love

Are all clearly better.

Then there's a whole bunch of guys you can argue:

Pau
Bynum
LMA
Josh Smith
Joe Johnson
Griffin
Pierce
KG
Nash
Duncan
Gay

Etc.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Were Kobe and Shaq's Lakers stacked?

They had Shaq who was playing in God mode and Kobe who as the second option was putting up like 25/5/5, and a bunch of role players.

Rick Fox
Brian Shaw
Ron Harper
Derek Fisher
Robert Horry
Glen Rice
AC Green
Horace Grant


Even the other "Star" players on those teams were all on the back side of their career and couldn't perform at a star level for long stretches.

Jordan had Pippen and, again, a bunch of role players.

Miami has three guys in their starting lineup that could or should be double teamed. Lebron and Wade are both ranked in the to 3, 4 or 5 in the league depending on who you ask. You don't think that opens things up a little for the rest of the team? A couple rings for LBJ, Wade, and Bosh together isn't exactly going to set the world on fire. Lebron himslf predicted "not 5, not 6, not 7", or some bullshit like that. All this and we've got people acting like it's absurd to question that 2 rings is going to put LBJ above everyone but maybe Jordan and Magic?

:biggums:

[PTB Fan]

As the topic says, is he?

His dominance since the start of his career is really amazing and even though I'm not a big fan of his personality no one can say that he's not anything but amazing.

I was thinking, I already consider LeBron as a top 15 player of all-time and with 2 rings along with him dominating, should there be any doubt regarding LeBron being a top 5 player?

No doubt about it.

[All Net]

It's how lebron wins will decide a lot.., he doesn't need loads of titles just putting up great stats and how he leads his team. He is only 28 after all.

[LakersReign]

As someone had said before, Lebron has won more hypothetical championships than anyone else in the history of the league.

The most pathetic part about all that is, how they're so willing to rank Lebron on a GOAT list SOLELY based on those hypothetical titles. But turn right around and rank Kobe low as hell on that same list, even though Kobe already has 5 LEGIT TITLES.:facepalm

Lebron is AT, 15-20....MAX. He's the 2000's version of Karl Malone. Ranking him higher than that is ridiculous.


SOOOOO Lebron winning 2 on a stacked team puts him in the top5???

BUT, Kobe winning 5, with 2 as "the man" but the other 3 on a stacked team dont count?? :confusedshrug:

How do Lebrons count then? The Lebron stans on here are seriously retarded:facepalm :facepalm


But back to reality 5>0:oldlol:

That's the same thing I'm saying. Hilarious:roll:

[All Net]

I don't think anybody is saying lebron is higher than top 15 right now... But in the next 4 years is the better time to judge him. If he can win say 2-3 titles in the next 4 years and how he wins it will be hard to keep him out of the top 5-7 range.

We really can't judge him yet...

[LakersReign]

I don't think anybody is saying lebron is higher than top 15 right now... But in the next 4 years is the better time to judge him. If he can win say 2-3 titles in the next 4 years and how he wins it will be hard to keep him out of the top 5-7 range.

We really can't judge him yet...

I agree that we have to wait and see how his career pans out. My thing is, stop ranking him higher on the AT list, NOW based only on hypothetical titles.

[miles berg]

No, LeBron has a loooong ways to go. The great ones make the 4th quarter their own personal playground.

[All Net]

I agree that we have to wait and see how his career pans out. My thing is, stop ranking him NOW based on hypothetical titles.

I agree, it's stupid trying to rank him at this stage of his career. He is only 28 after all.

Just like its stupid ranking durant.

[DMAVS41]

Also, top 20 players. However, I can put things into context. For example, both Barkley and Malone were playing at the exact same time as MJ's loaded Bulls teams and, thus, got shut out of championships. Also, neither one was known for folding when it mattered most (perhaps Lebron will overcome that stigma).

Malone was known for just that actually. There is currently no reason other than longevity to rank Barkley or Malone over Lebron....and I don't even know if that is reason enough.

What Lebron has done in just 9 years so far puts him firmly in the top 20 all time after winning his 3rd MVP.

The absolute worst Lebron can do is finish top 12 unless he suffers a career ending injury.

If Lebron were two get 3 mvps, 2 titles, and 2 finals mvps....he's on the Hakeem/Kobe tier at least.

People just can't change the criteria because they don't like Lebron. 3 MVP's is huge for all time rankings.

[lbj23clutch]

Nope. Needs more rings. I can see him being considered top 10 though. But for him to be considered top 5, he would need to finish with 4 MVP's, 1 DPOY, 3 rings, and 3 finals MVP's.

[Pointguard]

If he wins two titles with two FMVP award he will be ahead of bird.Best SF in history.So he will be in top 10.However to be in top 5 he needs 3FMVPs and another MVP award.If he wins 4FMVPs and 5MVP awards i would put him top 3 behind Kareem or just ahead of kareem.However one title only top 12
Yeah, I'm somewhere in this vicinity. He has a shot at being the top scorer all time - despite not really emphasizing it above everything else. He also has a shot at an incredibly impressive all around career stats - points/assist/rebounds/steals/blocks combo while being in DPOY considerations and having great efficiency. I have a distinction of GOAT (includes impact off the court, awards, team accomplishments) and GOAT PLAYER which is what happens on the 90x45 court. Lebron is already top 10 GOAT player.

[longtime lurker]

He needs at least 5 titles to be top 5 all time, unless he averages monster stats like Wilt did. This way he might be fine with 2-3 titles only.

This is reasonable. I'd say to pass anyone on the bottom half of the top 10 list he'd have to simply win more titles than them.

[bwink23]

So if Micheal Jordan had stayed on a scrubby team his whole career... would he not be regarded as the best ever, as he shown he couldn't win a championship without a stacked team.

"Stacked team" ?? :lol

Hardly.

Jordan won with draft picks within 4 years, were contenders within 3. He didn't bring in ANY veteran talent to win...:facepalm

[gtfomyface]

"Stacked team" ?? :lol

Hardly.

Jordan won with draft picks within 4 years, were contenders within 3. He didn't bring in ANY veteran talent to win...:facepalm

how lucky to have a team luck out on the draft year after year , just like durant :applause:

[Doranku]

So would that mean Wade is top 3? Because if LeBron were to win two titles, Wade would have 3 rings and 3 Finals MVPs...

[The Iron Fist]

If he gets two more MVPs and 3-4 championships... id give him a shot at best individual talent in the history.

I said Individual Talent
Dont carried away. You are disrecting LEGENDS who were more accomplished than lebron before they even entered the nba. They were that talented and didnt need a media onslaught to prove it.

[coin24]

So would that mean Wade is top 3? Because if LeBron were to win two titles, Wade would have 3 rings and 3 Finals MVPs...
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[I.R.Beast]

He passes Kobe with 2 rings, especially if he wins one more MVP and a finals MVP or two.
idiots.....lol...

[Inactive]

To me, a certain number of rings doesn't guarantee him any spot. If he wins 2 rings, by playing at an incredible level, I'd probably put him somewhere in the top 5-7. If he wins 2 rings by playing at his usual level, then I'd probably put him around 10-12. If he wins 2 rings after he declines, and/or he doesn't get any FMVPs, then it wouldn't improve his ranking, as far as I'm concerned.

[I.R.Beast]

SOOOOO Lebron winning 2 on a stacked team puts him in the top5???

BUT, Kobe winning 5, with 2 as "the man" but the other 3 on a stacked team dont count?? :confusedshrug:

How do Lebrons count then? The Lebron stans on here are seriously retarded:facepalm :facepalm


But back to reality 5>0:oldlol:
Hey, it's invalid if it's not in lebron favor. The same way rings don't make a player better until LeBron gets his ring.

[gilalizard]

No.

The Heat are so stacked and get so much help from the refs, anything they "win" isn't worthy of real respect.

[D.J.]

Top 5 players are MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic. You can debate the order, but those are generally the 5 most people list. Out of those 5, all but Wilt have at least 3 titles(and Wilt still has 2). Also, all but Wilt have at least 2 Finals MVPs. As good as LeBron is, he hasn't been dominant like Wilt where only 2 titles and 1 Finals MVP can get him to the 2nd spot on the all-time list, or 3rd at worst. You can make a case for top 10 if he has 2 rings, but definitely not top 5.

[LBJDW305]

People really hate on lebron it's sad....I hope it's just a forum act on here. IF and that's a HUGE if he wins 2 titles and FMVP he is top 10. Another MVP will have him in discussion for top 5

[LBJDW305]

No.

The Heat are so stacked and get so much help from the refs, anything they "win" isn't worthy of real respect.

I guess MJ is not GOAT in your books

[chazzy]

Not top 5, he'd be in that end of the top ten tier. How would leapfrog guys like Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem with only 2? His level of play right now isn't better than theirs when they won their titles.

[D.J.]

Another MVP will have him in discussion for top 5


No it won't. It still won't put him above Bird or Magic.

[talkingconch]

As someone had said before, Lebron has won more hypothetical championships than anyone else in the history of the league.
haha

[longtime lurker]

Top 5 players are MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic. You can debate the order, but those are generally the 5 most people list. Out of those 5, all but Wilt have at least 3 titles(and Wilt still has 2). Also, all but Wilt have at least 2 Finals MVPs. As good as LeBron is, he hasn't been dominant like Wilt where only 2 titles and 1 Finals MVP can get him to the 2nd spot on the all-time list, or 3rd at worst. You can make a case for top 10 if he has 2 rings, but definitely not top 5.

Russell?

[D.J.]

Russell?


I have him at 6. He gets there solely because he has 11 titles, but he wasn't nearly as good individually as anyone in the top 5.

[Duncan21formvp]

No because he didn't do what MJ, Kareem, Russell, Duncan or Hakeem did and that is take an organization that never won prior to them arriving to the title.

[longtime lurker]

I have him at 6. He gets there solely because he has 11 titles, but he wasn't nearly as good individually as anyone in the top 5.

11 titles should make up for the supposed lack of individual dominance(which is untrue since they didn't keep defensive stats back then) just like Wilt's ridiculous individual dominance makes up for his lack of championships.

[D.J.]

11 titles should make up for the supposed lack of individual dominance(which is untrue since they didn't keep defensive stats back then) just like Wilt's ridiculous individual dominance makes up for his lack of championships.


Horry has the most titles for a non-Celtic. I don't see him up there.

[Quickening]

"Stacked team" ?? :lol

Hardly.

Jordan won with draft picks within 4 years, were contenders within 3. He didn't bring in ANY veteran talent to win...:facepalm

Yes a stacked team, as proven when Jordan retired and the team win percentage barely changed.... team with Rodman, arguably best defensive player ever, and Pippen one of the best second option ever is not a stacked team....:lol

How was MJ doing in a first 4-5 seasons when he with an average team.:roll:

His prime started before he won any championships... why is that, is it because he needed a stacked team to win them.:oldlol:

[longtime lurker]

Horry has the most titles for a non-Celtic. I don't see him up there.

Comparing role players to all time players is faulty logic. When comparing same tier level players championships should be taken into consideration. There's no way Bill Russell should be out of top 5 when he's the epitomy of why you play the game.

[D.J.]

Comparing role players to all time players is faulty logic. When comparing same tier level players championships should be taken into consideration. There's no way Bill Russell should be out of top 5 when he's the epitomy of why you play the game.


It's not faulty logic. Just because you have the most rings of anyone by far doesn't automatically put you in the top 5. Even with the rings, you can't rank Russell over Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, or Bird.

[longtime lurker]

It's not faulty logic. Just because you have the most rings of anyone by far doesn't automatically put you in the top 5. Even with the rings, you can't rank Russell over Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, or Bird.

Yes using Horry is faulty logic because if you put up Horry's individual talent, accomplishments, awards etc against Russell it's a complete joke. But for players on the same tier when it comes to individual talent, accomplishments etc rings should hold weight.

[Inactive]

Comparing role players to all time players is faulty logic. When comparing same tier level players championships should be taken into consideration. There's no way Bill Russell should be out of top 5 when he's the epitomy of why you play the game.How do you objectively determine which tier a player is on? Is there some non-arbitrary cutoff for each tier? Either rings have their own value, independent of what the player actually does, or they don't. If they do, then comparing a "roleplayer's" rings to a "superstar's" rings is logical. If they don't, then there's no point in comparing players by their rings.

[JohnnyWall]

If LeBron had won two titles as the clear #1 on that Cleveland team, I'd have no problem bumping him into the Top 10 all-time.

But two titles on Wade's team with a Bosh sidekick? After at least one failure? Nope. Not Top 10, and sure as hell not Top 5.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I have him at 6. He gets there solely because he has 11 titles, but he wasn't nearly as good individually as anyone in the top 5.
Actually, almost every NBA pundit, player, and coach put Bill Russell in the top 3 all time. Indeed, several years ago, he was voted #1 all-time player. Now, we can debate that, but the fact is most knowledgeable people have him at least top-5 all-time.

[Duncan21formvp]

Yes a stacked team, as proven when Jordan retired and the team win percentage barely changed.... team with Rodman, arguably best defensive player ever, and Pippen one of the best second option ever is not a stacked team....:lol

How was MJ doing in a first 4-5 seasons when he with an average team.:roll:

His prime started before he won any championships... why is that, is it because he needed a stacked team to win them.:oldlol:
Jordan never played with guys who won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade. In fact Lebron has played with guys more proven than he is on the highest stage. Jordan never played with anyone more proven than he was.

[longtime lurker]

How do you objectively determine which tier a player is on? Is there some non-arbitrary cutoff for each tier? Either rings have their own value, independent of what the player actually does, or they don't. If they do, then comparing a "roleplayer's" rings to a "superstar's" rings is logical. If they don't, then there's no point in comparing players by their rings.

:biggums: You can't seriously think you can compare a role player's rings to a superstars. Robert Horry did not contribute more to wining a ring than the superstars he played with. Did he make huge contributions of course, but to just bring up the same tired saying that saying about Horry and his 7 rings just to downplay the value of rings.

[Inactive]

:biggums: You can't seriously think you can compare a role player's rings to a superstars. Robert Horry did not contribute more to wining a ring than the superstars he played with. Did he make huge contributions of course, but to just bring up the same tired saying that saying about Horry and his 7 rings just to downplay the value of rings.Exactly. I would say that Charles Barkley did more to win, than Horry. By every measure that we have, he contributed more to winning games. He also contributed more, by those same metrics, than Russell. We can speculate about Russell's impact on defense, and his impact on his teammates, but in the end, that's all just talk. You don't have any way of demonstrating, or quantifying his impact, all you can do is make assertions.

Like I said, either rings have their own value, or they don't. If they do have their own value, what is it? If you can't answer that, then it's perfectly reasonable to criticize your ring counting.

[bwink23]

Yes a stacked team, as proven when Jordan retired and the team win percentage barely changed.... team with Rodman, arguably best defensive player ever, and Pippen one of the best second option ever is not a stacked team....:lol

How was MJ doing in a first 4-5 seasons when he with an average team.:roll:

His prime started before he won any championships... why is that, is it because he needed a stacked team to win them.:oldlol:


When Jordan retired, that team was already a 3-peat championship squad now with SEASONED VETS, GOAT coach in the famed triangle offense.

The Lakers team in 1997 won 56 games with rookie Kobe being a minor blip on the radar..and they never won ANYTHING.

Were they STACKED??? :rolleyes:

[pauk]

Not sure about top 5.... but top 10 tho... definitely...

[tpols]

Not sure about top 5.... but top 10 tho... definitely...
Above Kobe?:oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

Lets be all honest here...........

With 2 Rings & 2 FMVPs, LBJ is only passing Kobe & Duncan at best.

He aint passing Shaq.

2 rings, #10 spot is possible.

3 rings, #10 spot is guaranteed. & Shaq's # 8th spot is in jeopardy.

[G-Funk]

Easily the dumbest post of the year.
He won't

Hakeem, Shaq & Duncan are still better

[G-Funk]

Lets be all honest here...........

With 2 Rings & 2 FMVPs, LBJ is only passing Kobe & Duncan at best.

He aint passing Shaq.

2 rings, #10 spot is possible.

3 rings, #10 spot is guaranteed. & Shaq's # 8th spot is in jeopardy.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

[G-Funk]

If LeBron had won two titles as the clear #1 on that Cleveland team, I'd have no problem bumping him into the Top 10 all-time.

But two titles on Wade's team with a Bosh sidekick? After at least one failure? Nope. Not Top 10, and sure as hell not Top 5.
thank u, u my friend have brains!

[KingBeasley08]

Top 10 easily. :oldlol: @ this Wade's team nonsense. He's the clear best player on the team

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I don't understand the championship math that a lot of Kobe haters use.

They intend to rank Lebron ahead of Kobe for winning 2 hypothetical championships on a team with three superstars.

While discounting 3 of Kobe's 5 actual championships because he won them on a team with two superstars.

They also think that if Lebron wins these two imagined championships and wins FMVP for both that it will somehow erase all of the choking and passivity that he has exhibited up to this point in the late rounds of the playoffs.

:biggums:

Nice try phagg0ts

[RazorBaLade]

I think he doesn't crack top 10 with 2, it will probably be an arguable thing or t12

Assuming he wins his titles averaging decent stuff, not like 18 ppg or anything like that:

Jordan -----> 7 titles
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Magic ----> Probably his absolute max, takes it with 5 titles.
Shaq
Bird ----> Takes this spot with 4 titles
Kobe
Duncan ---> Takes this spot with 3 titles
Hakeem

[KingBeasley08]

I don't understand the championship math that a lot of Kobe haters use.

They intend to rank Lebron ahead of Kobe for winning 2 hypothetical championships on a team with three superstars.

While discounting 3 of Kobe's 5 actual championships because he won them on a team with two superstars.

They also think that if Lebron wins these two imagined championships and wins FMVP for both that it will somehow erase all of the choking and passivity that he has exhibited up to this point in the late rounds of the playoffs.

:biggums:

Nice try phagg0ts
well yea... rings aren't the only things used while ranking players. why else is wilt considered top 5 with only 2 rings? regular season dominance combined with rings is easy top 10. kobes problem is that he was easily the 2nd best player for 3 rings. Lebron is the best player on the team

[StateOfMind12]

It would depend entirely on how LeBron plays in the playoffs and the Finals in those two title runs.

If he is as dominant as MJ in those title two runs then he could be top 5 of all-time and he would probably be the greatest SF ever.

If he is less dominant than Kobe in those two title runs then he would be like top 10 at the highest.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

well yea... rings aren't the only things used while ranking players. why else is wilt considered top 5 with only 2 rings? regular season dominance combined with rings is easy top 10. kobes problem is that he was easily the 2nd best player for 3 rings. Lebron is the best player on the team

Even if you insanely don't count Kobe's first thee rings, he still has 2 with 2 FMVP's. And Kobe hasn't been dominant in the regualar season? It's not like he doesn't put up stats either. On any given night he's gonna get you 25 or 30 points. He's always getting you 5 or 6 rebounds a game and 5 or 6 assists a game. He scored 81 f**king points in a game. I would expect Lebron at 6'8 260 as a forward to shoot a higher fg%.

Kobe might have been the second best player one his first 3 titles but he was a bad motherf**ker on all three of those putting up something like 25/5/5. Kobe and Shaq was like 1a and 1b much like Lebron and Wade. But, Lebron and Wade also hav eBosh who is ranked by most as one of the best players in the league.

This is some efficiency worshipping, Henry Abbot/John Hollinger stat geek douchebaggery.

[KingBeasley08]

Even if you insanely don't count Kobe's first thee rings, he still has 2 with 2 FMVP's. And Kobe hasn't been dominant in the regualar season? It's not like he doesn't put up stats either. On any given night he's gonna get you 25 or 30 points. He's always getting you 5 or 6 rebounds a game and 5 or 6 assists a game. He scored 81 f**king points in a game. I would expect Lebron at 6'8 260 as a forward to shoot a higher fg%.

Kobe might have been the second best player one his first 3 titles but he was a bad motherf**ker on all three of those putting up something like 25/5/5. Kobe and Shaq was like 1a and 1b much like Lebron and Wade. But, Lebron and Wade also hav eBosh who is ranked by most as one of the best players in the league.

This is some efficiency worshipping, Henry Abbot/John Hollinger stat geek douchebaggery.
so where do you rank kobe? i got him at 8 which seems fair. lebron hitting 9 or 10, or potentially surpassing that isn't that hard to imagine

[RazorBaLade]

Even if you insanely don't count Kobe's first thee rings, he still has 2 with 2 FMVP's. And Kobe hasn't been dominant in the regualar season? It's not like he doesn't put up stats either. On any given night he's gonna get you 25 or 30 points. He's always getting you 5 or 6 rebounds a game and 5 or 6 assists a game. He scored 81 f**king points in a game. I would expect Lebron at 6'8 260 as a forward to shoot a higher fg%.

Kobe might have been the second best player one his first 3 titles but he was a bad motherf**ker on all three of those putting up something like 25/5/5. Kobe and Shaq was like 1a and 1b much like Lebron and Wade. But, Lebron and Wade also hav eBosh who is ranked by most as one of the best players in the league.

This is some efficiency worshipping, Henry Abbot/John Hollinger stat geek douchebaggery.

nice post

[niko]

3rd after Jordan and Kareem
Kareem is nowhere near top two.

[midatlantic09]

A lot of you guys put way too much emphasis on rings. You could have the best player ever, but if he doesn't have the right supporting cast, he'll never win a championship (which says nothing about his skills as a player).

All rings tell me is that the team's management did an excellent job of acquiring the right players and the right coaches to get the job done.

[RazorBaLade]

A lot of you guys put way too much emphasis on rings. You could have the best player ever, but if he doesn't have the right supporting cast, he'll never win a championship (which says nothing about his skills as a player).

All rings tell me is that the team's management did an excellent job of acquiring the right players and the right coaches to get the job done.

How true is that though? How many times has a really really good player not found a way to win, via leaving to a different team or demanding the FO to make moves or doing his best with what he has?

Look at KG, he was dying in minny right.. Hasn't he really maxed his potential? He went and left to bos, won a championship, and we know who the guy is. If he played on the lakers alongside kobe all this time would he really go down as a better player? We know who the guy is / was. A top 20 player of all time. Dirk couldn't win in dallas but he did, didn't he? And it proved he was who we thought he was, a top 20 player of all time.

When has a player not been able to win that would really make a giant leap with championships? If kobe left the lakers in 06 and played on the clippers he'd still go down as a top 10 player all time, he'd still win one title and be who he is. Theres just no way around it, if you stick around long enough you'll show who you are.

[Ne 1]

Kobe might have been the second best player one his first 3 titles but he was a bad motherf**ker on all three of those putting up something like 25/5/5. Kobe and Shaq was like 1a and 1b much like Lebron and Wade.


Why dosen't anyone discredit Magic for winning with Kareem? :confusedshrug: He was as clear of a sidekick in 1980 as Kobe was in 2000. And if you look at 1982 objectively< Kareem was still the best player and in 1985, it was atleast 1.A/1.B. Yet nobody says Magic has only 2 or 3 rings or puts a qualifier on them. Why the double standard?

[gengiskhan]

Even if you insanely don't count Kobe's first thee rings, he still has 2 with 2 FMVP's. And Kobe hasn't been dominant in the regualar season? It's not like he doesn't put up stats either. On any given night he's gonna get you 25 or 30 points. He's always getting you 5 or 6 rebounds a game and 5 or 6 assists a game. He scored 81 f**king points in a game. I would expect Lebron at 6'8 260 as a forward to shoot a higher fg%.

Kobe might have been the second best player one his first 3 titles but he was a bad motherf**ker on all three of those putting up something like 25/5/5. Kobe and Shaq was like 1a and 1b much like Lebron and Wade. But, Lebron and Wade also hav eBosh who is ranked by most as one of the best players in the league.

This is some efficiency worshipping, Henry Abbot/John Hollinger stat geek douchebaggery.

Damn faaaaaak

Shaq was a beast of nature unstoppable force strength wise

Every opponent triple teamed shaq almost every play just to stop monster dunks

Kobe was "left wide open" perimeter scorer.

Hence Kobe stats are considerably inflated thanks to shaq's dominant peak prime

[niko]

Lebron has not won two titles. He has won NO titles. Can we stop giving him hypothetical titles?

[NumberSix]

As far as best player, I'd already put him in the top 3.

If you want to talk about greatest legacy (which I personally don't give 2 shits about) he's like top 15.

[ShaqAttack3234]

2 titles would probably get Lebron borderline top 10 on my list, probably 11th. I have him around the top 15 range now. But it depends on his performance. Only two top 10 players don't have more than 2 rings, and they are Hakeem and Wilt. I see quite a few parallels between Wilt's career and Lebron's so far, except Lebron doesn't have the rings now that Wilt did, or a season as complete as Wilt's '67 season.

Hakeem vs Lebron would still be pretty clear cut for me. Hakeem was the better player, imo, the far more consistent playoff performer and he clearly had less help on his championship teams while facing better competition(particularly in '95) than Lebron will face this season when he has a really easy path to the finals. Hakeem is right around my top 5, though. Just using him as an example since he'd be one of the only 2 top 10 players Lebron would be tied with.

But quite a bit will depend on performance, that's a big factor for me with rings, how well you play to get them.

Even so, Lebron would have the most help of anyone since the 80's, and one of the easier paths to the finals this year.


Why dosen't anyone discredit Magic for winning with Kareem? :confusedshrug: He was as clear of a sidekick in 1980 as Kobe was in 2000. And if you look at 1982 objectively< Kareem was still the best player and in 1985, it was atleast 1.A/1.B. Yet nobody says Magic has only 2 or 3 rings or puts a qualifier on them. Why the double standard?

True, I hate that Kareem's 1980 run is forgotten. It was one of the best playoff runs ever, imo. Luckily, I've seen almost every game from that playoff run. It seemed to be forgotten when Magic had his game 6(winning finals MVP for being more valuable in 1 game rather than the other 5 :facepalm )

And yeah, Kareem was still better in '82. Magic had more responsibility than he had during the first title, and the gap had closed a bit. But Kareem was still easily their best scorer, and their 1st option in the half court, he was also blocking 3 shots per game giving him a significant defensive advantage over Magic.

Magic still hadn't developed much of an outside shot then, and certainly didn't show the post game he did from '87-'91. That made him a more limited half court player.

Kareem was clearly their best player from '80-'83, imo, and by '84, '85 and arguably '86, they were 1.A/1.B in that they're close enough that it's tough to decide. By '84 or '85, around there, Magic was adding the outside shot which improved his game.

It was still "Kareem's team" until the '86-'87 season when Magic took over.

[D.J.]

Kareem is nowhere near top two.


He's no lower than 3rd. Top 3 is MJ, Wilt, and Kareem. Debate the order all you want, but Kareem at worst is 3rd.

[LBJMVP]

two rings and two final MVPs

i'd probly have in my top ten.

it would be hard not to. assuming that he keeps up his current play and wins another regulars season with the two rings and two final mvp's.

4 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's along with all his other accolades gives him a pretty good resume.

we may have to wait until he retires. alot of people have problems putting current players over magic and bird because of the emotional attachment.

but when its all said and done kobe bryant will be in the top 5 and if lebrons wins a couple rings he might be there to.