Is Bosh even considered a star anymore?

[tmacattack33]

I really hope he can prove me wrong, but Chris Bosh is slowly going downhill and is turning into a great role player as opposed to a decent star player.

He rarely does anything too impressive on offense anymore. Instead, he may catch a Lebron or Wade pass and put up a catch and shoot jumper. Or, he may pump fake that shot off and drive when the defender gets faked out by the pump fake.

It's ridiculous. He used to be a pretty good finesse PF and would be able to take his guy off the dribble like few PF's were able to do.

He's also slowly but surely disappearing in the rebounding game. Before the All-Star break this year he was getting 8.3 rebounds. Post-all star he was getting 7.4 a game. In round 1, he was getting 7.2.

[Indian guy]

He has clearly lost a lot of his strength and explosiveness from his Raptor days. He was a legitimate creator there. As a Heat on the other hand, it's just painful to watch him put the ball on the floor. Not only is he slow and clumsy, but the slightest contact unhinges him. The guy just didn't take proper care of his body and is now relegated to being nothing beyond a finisher - open jumpers and layups/dunks. Let's not even get into his defense and rebounding.

[Doranku]

Just another player who has noticeably declined playing with LeBron. Seems Wade is heading down that path as well.

[Nash]

He has not lost anything, stop it. He just gets like 8 touches a game and therefor he doesn't look the same as he did with Toronto.

[tmacattack33]

Just another player who has noticeably declined playing with LeBron. Seems Wade is heading down that path as well.

LOL. It has nothing to do with Lebron.

Lebron has totally changed Mario Chalmer's career and is now extending Battier's and Mike Miller's.

Bosh is doing this to himself.

And it's also impossible for Lebron to have anything to do with Bosh's rebounding, unless you are saying Lebron is so good at rebounding that he steals away rebounds from Bosh.

[tmacattack33]

He has not lost anything, stop it. He just gets like 8 touches a game and therefor he doesn't look the same as he did with Toronto.

That doesn't explain the rebounds.

[Doranku]

LOL. It has nothing to do with Lebron.

Lebron has totally changed Mario Chalmer's career and is now extending Battier's and Mike Miller's.

Bosh is doing this to himself.

And it's also impossible for Lebron to have anything to do with Bosh's rebounding, unless you are saying Lebron is so good at rebounding that he steals away rebounds from Bosh.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chalmers isn't even playing as well as he did in his rookie year, yet LeBron has "totally changed" his career.

[Kyle_korver]

That doesn't explain the rebounds.
:applause:

[tmacattack33]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chalmers isn't even playing as well as he did in his rookie year, yet LeBron has "totally changed" his career.

Thanks for letting us know you haven't watched more than 2 Heat games this year.

Chalmers is playing the best ball of his career.


And you have no argument in saying Lebron doesn't make players better...one look at one happened in Cleveland last year (5-25 record, before all the injuries happened and the trade) is great evidence for my case here.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

On any other team, he would still be a star.
Instead, he has to watch Lebron do his thing...which may or may not include Bosh on any given night.
Is Bosh suddenly Andy V....after being a perennial all-star?

[Peteballa]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chalmers isn't even playing as well as he did in his rookie year, yet LeBron has "totally changed" his career.

Mario is playing fantastic, and a lot of it is the great looks he is getting from LeBron. While I am not going to say Mario is playing the best ball of his career solely because of LeBron, I will tell you that this has been his best season, even better than his Rookie year. Rookie year he was painful to watch sometimes... Now he is a legitimate starter.

[Ketchup]

First I find out Pluto isn't a planet anymore, now Chris Bosh isn't a star. What the hell is going on?

[Doranku]

Thanks for letting us know you haven't watched more than 2 Heat games this year.

Chalmers is playing the best ball of his career.


And you have no argument in saying Lebron doesn't make players better...one look at one happened in Cleveland last year (5-25 record, before all the injuries happened and the trade) is great evidence for my case here.

Considering the Cavs started out like 9-8 last year, I'm going to say it's safe to say that you're just a troll who enjoys making up facts.

Good day.

[I.R.Beast]

He is superstar player on team with 2 ball dominant superstars that freeze him out of the game and make him a one dimentional player (Spot up shooting). No surprise. James has taht affect on the people he plays with. If you aint catchin and shooting james will do nothing for your game.

[tmacattack33]

First I find out Pluto isn't a planet anymore, now Chris Bosh isn't a star. What the hell is going on?

:lol :lol :lol

[Haymaker]

I wouldn't mind having him in the Spurs playing with Duncan. :cheers:

[tmacattack33]

Considering the Cavs started out like 9-8 last year, I'm going to say it's safe to say that you're just a troll who enjoys making up facts.

Good day.

They were not 9-8. Wtf.

[arifgokcen]

The amount of touches he got has significantly decreased since raptors days.If wade wasnt in miami,we would be calling him best 2nd option.Because he averaged like 23-24ppg and 9-10rpg.However lebron and wade,there is only one ball so its kind hard having to share the ball with lebron and wade

[Kiddlovesnets]

He has to step down as team's third option, whats the point?

[All Net]

He clearly is but he hasn't played up to par lately. Nothing to do with anybody else.

[tmacattack33]

He has to step down as team's third option, whats the point?

Yes, and if he has to step down in terms of scoring, he should be able put his energy into other things.

Ray Allen had to do this in 2008. He had less of a role offensively, but he became a better defensive player. He was definitely a star.

Harden is definitely a star in OKC right now. He would score more as a number one option, but as the third option he has thrived and is able to do multiple things on the court.

Ginobli was definitely a star in San Antonio's prime years.

...I could keep going.


Apparently you have low standards for apparent all-stars who are the third option of their team.

[bdreason]

You can thank Spoelstra for making Bosh a jump shooter whose only role on the team is the spread the court for James and Wade.




The year before joining the Heat, Bosh was 24/11 on 52%. He didn't all of a sudden get worse.

[bdreason]

That doesn't explain the rebounds.


Making your PF stand on the perimeter the whole game to create space certainly effects his rebounding.

[tmacattack33]

You can thank Spoelstra for making Bosh a jump shooter whose only role on the team is the spread the court for James and Wade.




The year before joining the Heat, Bosh was 24/11 on 52%. He didn't all of a sudden get worse.

Spoelstra is to blame as well, you are correct.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was easily at his best when he bulked up to 250 in 2010. His rebounding hasn't just fallen off due to the weight loss, though, he's also on a better rebounding team, he plays outside more offensively, he's more active defensively, and I believe that his reduced role offensively has taken away from his overall aggressiveness.

Even so, I'd still say he's a star. He's still one of the better offensive PF, and at least his team defense has improved in Miami. And he still averaged 19/8 as a 3rd option last year, and 18/8 this year.

I thought he eventually became comfortable as the 3rd option later last season and in the playoffs, but he's seemed less comfortable there this season. But I believe he averaged around 24/8 on 57% shooting when Wade was out, and he's made 7 consecutive all-star teams, so the man is no role player.

Look at championship teams in the 00's and 10's, you'll see a maximum of 2 teams with a 3rd option arguably as good, and that would be Parker/Manu in '07(whoever you think was 3rd), and that's still debatable. And the other might be Ray Allen in '08. Allen did seem to struggle himself that first year in Boston before getting more comfortable in '09, especially during that horrendous slump throughout the earlier rounds of the '08 playoffs, so I'm not sure about that one.

Every other team in the 00's and 10's that won a title hasn't had a 3rd best player close to Bosh's caliber. Obviously Miami hasn't won a title yet, but if they do, it's worth mentioning because I've never been a Bosh fan, but it's still a hell of a luxury to have him as your 3rd option.

[97 bulls]

Bosh is the same player, his role is different. Its obvious alot of yout guys dont know a damn thing about basketball. Boshes role is to hit the open jumper. His rebounding is effected due in larger part to playing with james, and haslem, as well as spending most od his time outside the paint.

But he was never what id call aa superstar. The points he put up were due to his being on a bad team. Theres alot of players that could do the same thing.

[returnofthemack]

Thanks for letting us know you haven't watched more than 2 Heat games this year.

Chalmers is playing the best ball of his career.


And you have no argument in saying Lebron doesn't make players better...one look at one happened in Cleveland last year (5-25 record, before all the injuries happened and the trade) is great evidence for my case here.

thanks for letting me know you didnt watch 2 cavs games last year.

[tmacattack33]

thanks for letting me know you didnt watch 2 cavs games last year.

Explain this comment please.

No, I didn't watch many of their first 33 games. But they went 8-25 in them (or something very similar...I can't remember the specific number).

I didn't need to watch those games to see that they lost 25 of them and won only 8. So, unless you are saying that the refs made them lose those 17 games, I don't see what your point is.

[returnofthemack]

Depth chartPos. Starter Bench Reserve Inactive
C Anderson Varej

[tmacattack33]

[QUOTE=returnofthemack]Depth chartPos. Starter Bench Reserve Inactive
C Anderson Varej

[Nash]

[QUOTE=returnofthemack]Depth chartPos. Starter Bench Reserve Inactive
C Anderson Varej

[97 bulls]

lol, what?

Mo Williams
Parker
Alonzo Gee
Jamison
Varejao

Exactly the same team minus Lebron. The only players worth mentioning they lost were Lebron and West. Shaq was old and retired the year after and so did Ilgauskas. Saying Lebron has nothing to do with them going from being a 60+ wins team to the WORST losing streak in NBA history is just plain stupid. Unless of course losing West and Shaq/Z was the main problem. Please..
How bout injuries?

[JellyBean]

Alot depends on what you mean by "star". But to me,yeah Bosh is still considered a star. He is not being asked to score 25-30 a night like the did while with the Raptors. With the Heat his role is different. He still goes for 15-25 a night. But why would he have to score 25 a night when he has 3x MVP(James) and D-Wade to lead the way.

[tmacattack33]

Alot depends on what you mean by "star". But to me,yeah Bosh is still considered a star. He is not being asked to score 25-30 a night like the did while with the Raptors. With the Heat his role is different. He still goes for 15-25 a night. But why would he have to score 25 a night when he has 3x MVP(James) and D-Wade to lead the way.

I don't want him to score 25 ppg. But I want him to get 10 boards a game and want to see him improve on defense.

In the beginning of the season, this guy predicted that he would average a double double. That seems laughable right now.

He should also be getting better defensively, since, as you say, he isn't asked to score much on offense correct? But that hasn't happened either.

[bizil]

Bosh is still a star player just entering the prime of his career. U gotta realize he went from a number one option to a number three option. So he's not getting the same amount of shot attempts. And even though he can be a very good defender, he was never on the Duncan-KG level of defense at the PF. And while he's a very good rebounder, he's not a beast like prime Timmy, prime KG, or K.Love. And his post game was never on the level of Duncan or Gasol.

With Bosh, U get a very agile big man with a great shooting touch. He also has a great handle as well for a PF. He's damn near PF-SF combo type guy. But he's not as dominant in as many facets as guys like prime KG or prime Duncan. But don't get it twisted, he's still one of the elite PF's in the game. And depending on the ring situation, has a chance at being a HOFer.

[DuMa]

compared to the rest of the Miami Scrubs not named Wade or Lebron, yes he is a star

[gilalizard]

He's the third option on the most stacked team in the league, behind two players who generally need the ball in their hands to play their best. Of course he's not going to shine like he used to.

He wanted it easy, he got it. But winning easy isn't impressive.

[TAZORAC]

He has clearly lost a lot of his strength and explosiveness from his Raptor days. He was a legitimate creator there. As a Heat on the other hand, it's just painful to watch him put the ball on the floor. Not only is he slow and clumsy, but the slightest contact unhinges him. The guy just didn't take proper care of his body and is now relegated to being nothing beyond a finisher - open jumpers and layups/dunks. Let's not even get into his defense and rebounding.

He could never rebound or play defense.

[guy]

Bosh and Amare were supposed to be the next Duncan and KG. Unfortunately, they never came close and clearly never will.

[inclinerator]

On any other team, he would still be a star.
Instead, he has to watch Lebron do his thing...which may or may not include Bosh on any given night.
Is Bosh suddenly Andy V....after being a perennial all-star?
the only this bosh is better at is on the offensive end

[returnofthemack]

lol, what?

Mo Williams
Parker
Alonzo Gee
Jamison
Varejao

Exactly the same team minus Lebron. The only players worth mentioning they lost were Lebron and West. Shaq was old and retired the year after and so did Ilgauskas. Saying Lebron has nothing to do with them going from being a 60+ wins team to the WORST losing streak in NBA history is just plain stupid. Unless of course losing West and Shaq/Z was the main problem. Please..

the following is qouted from an outside source.

The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of LeBron James (2966), Mo Williams (2359), Anthony Parker (2289), Anderson Varejao (2166), J.J. Hickson (1691), Delonte West (1500), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (1339) and Shaquille O'Neal (1240); the same players (in slightly different order) led the team in minutes per game, with Antawn Jamison (32.4 mpg in 25 games) joining the team down the stretch and Hickson and Ilgauskas each averaging 20.9 mpg overall as the eighth/ninth men in a very deep frontcourt rotation.

The 2011 Cavs went 19-63 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of J.J. Hickson (2256), Ramon Sessions (2133), Anthony Parker (2091), Daniel Gibson (1865), Antawn Jamison (1842), Ryan Hollins (1182), Mo Williams (1065) and Anderson Varejao (994). Williams played in just 36 games before being traded for Baron Davis (who ranked eighth on the team in minutes per game but only played in 15 games as a Cav), while Varejao played in just 31 games. That roster has no quality legitimate big men (other than the injured Varejao) and bears little resemblance to the previous roster.

For those who cannot be bothered to compare/contrast the data in the previous two paragraphs, the 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation contained just three players from the 2010 squad's eight man rotation: the inconsistent Hickson--now thrust into the role as the team's leader in minutes played--plus the injured Varejao and Williams, who was limited by nagging injuries before being traded to the Clippers. The 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation also included just three players from the 2009 squad's eight man rotation: Gibson (a non-starting three point specialist in 2009 who started 15 games in 2011) plus the aforementioned Williams and Varejao. If Jamison, Williams and Varejao had been the 2011 Cavs' top three players in minutes played (instead of fifth, seventh and eighth) the Cavs would have posted a much better record.

The Cavs not only lost their best player but they also essentially rebooted their entire franchise from top to bottom: the Cavs fired Coach Mike Brown (the 2009 NBA Coach of the Year) and shortly afterward General Manager Danny Ferry (the 2009 NBA Executive of the Year) resigned.



so you were saying?

i never said lebron had nothing to do with the cavs going from the best record in the league to the 2nd worst. but there was alot more going on then just lebron leaving

[ILLsmak]

LOL. It has nothing to do with Lebron.

Lebron has totally changed Mario Chalmer's career and is now extending Battier's and Mike Miller's.

Bosh is doing this to himself.

And it's also impossible for Lebron to have anything to do with Bosh's rebounding, unless you are saying Lebron is so good at rebounding that he steals away rebounds from Bosh.

His point is still valid, though, in that LeBron turns these guys into role players.

Of course a role player would play well with LeBron. Battier waits for the ball to shoot it. Bosh needs touches.

There are really two kinds of ball handlers in the NBA. There are PGs and guys who get other guys looks just from being so focused on by the D. I think LeBron is the second. He's not really the type of guy that learns what each player wants to do and sets them up for a shot, he's like... okay clear out and wait here, if they help off of you I'll give you the ball.

Edit: And Bosh becoming a defensive stopper/rebounder is ridiculous. You think just because a player is a "star" that he can randomly turn into whatever his team needs? You said you don't want him to score 25 ppg, but really he'd be much more suited to score 25 ppg than he would be to be a hustle player.

-Smak

[Bigsmoke]

Chris Bosh was never playing at the level Kevin Love is playing at right now.

i would say he's top 15 in 2010. Never top 10

[Cali Syndicate]

When the Heat were playing the offense through him right before he got injured, he looked like a star to me.

Can't blame him for taking a backseat to Lebron and Wade as well as he should but dude knows his role, and should be applauded for not being some attention whore diva like many other stars are.

[Bigsmoke]

the following is qouted from an outside source.

The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of LeBron James (2966), Mo Williams (2359), Anthony Parker (2289), Anderson Varejao (2166), J.J. Hickson (1691), Delonte West (1500), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (1339) and Shaquille O'Neal (1240); the same players (in slightly different order) led the team in minutes per game, with Antawn Jamison (32.4 mpg in 25 games) joining the team down the stretch and Hickson and Ilgauskas each averaging 20.9 mpg overall as the eighth/ninth men in a very deep frontcourt rotation.

The 2011 Cavs went 19-63 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of J.J. Hickson (2256), Ramon Sessions (2133), Anthony Parker (2091), Daniel Gibson (1865), Antawn Jamison (1842), Ryan Hollins (1182), Mo Williams (1065) and Anderson Varejao (994). Williams played in just 36 games before being traded for Baron Davis (who ranked eighth on the team in minutes per game but only played in 15 games as a Cav), while Varejao played in just 31 games. That roster has no quality legitimate big men (other than the injured Varejao) and bears little resemblance to the previous roster.

For those who cannot be bothered to compare/contrast the data in the previous two paragraphs, the 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation contained just three players from the 2010 squad's eight man rotation: the inconsistent Hickson--now thrust into the role as the team's leader in minutes played--plus the injured Varejao and Williams, who was limited by nagging injuries before being traded to the Clippers. The 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation also included just three players from the 2009 squad's eight man rotation: Gibson (a non-starting three point specialist in 2009 who started 15 games in 2011) plus the aforementioned Williams and Varejao. If Jamison, Williams and Varejao had been the 2011 Cavs' top three players in minutes played (instead of fifth, seventh and eighth) the Cavs would have posted a much better record.

The Cavs not only lost their best player but they also essentially rebooted their entire franchise from top to bottom: the Cavs fired Coach Mike Brown (the 2009 NBA Coach of the Year) and shortly afterward General Manager Danny Ferry (the 2009 NBA Executive of the Year) resigned.



so you were saying?


-everybody wanted Mike Brown fired when he was in Cleveland
-Jamison actually made the Cavs worst because of his liabilty on defense
-Mo Williams never that good
-Shaq was besically nothing by then. can't stay healthy and was very slow on defense

LeBron cast was good but it wasn't some super powerhouse. I'd rather play with Wade, Bosh, and Battier.

[DukeDelonte13]

-everybody wanted Mike Brown fired when he was in Cleveland
-Jamison actually made the Cavs worst because of his liabilty on defense
-Mo Williams never that good
-Shaq was besically nothing by then. can't stay healthy and was very slow on defense

LeBron cast was good but it wasn't some super powerhouse. I'd rather play with Wade, Bosh, and Battier.


-Mo was fine, had his best year ever on the cavs, but was mentally soft and couldn't hit for crap in the playoffs. Shaq was brought on to be a role player, not a #2 option. Shaq played well against Howard and Gasol/Bynum, which was what he was brought in to do.

EDIT: MB was ok too. I don't really think he was a hated coach by cleveland standards (i think every coach here gets critiqued hard no matter what they do) he was fired because Lebron wanted him out. I think MB's help D played a huge part in the cavs successful seasons, just as much as Byron's uptempo system played a huge role in the cavs ultra losing streak. People don't give credit where its due.

[DukeDelonte13]

Bosh is most certainly a star but his talent is being wasted as the no 3 option on a stacked team. I have no doubt that he can still put up big numbers if he is given enough touches. People that think Bosh isn't a star are just ignorant or only started watching the NBA when the miami butt buddies came together.

[returnofthemack]

-everybody wanted Mike Brown fired when he was in Cleveland
-Jamison actually made the Cavs worst because of his liabilty on defense
-Mo Williams never that good
-Shaq was besically nothing by then. can't stay healthy and was very slow on defense

LeBron cast was good but it wasn't some super powerhouse. I'd rather play with Wade, Bosh, and Battier.


all of that may be true but its really besides the point. to say that lebron left the cavs and that there were no other major changes is simply wrong.

what about the injury to andy v? he was easily the best big on those cavs teams that won alot of games and he only played 31 games? at no point were the cavs of 09-10 the same as the cavs of 2010-2011. completely differant coaching systems. differant players. differant front office. plus injurys to major parts of the team on top of losing two bigs in Z and shaq
(regarless of how old they were).

[Bigsmoke]

-Mo was fine, had his best year ever on the cavs, but was mentally soft and couldn't hit for crap in the playoffs. Shaq was brought on to be a role player, not a #2 option. Shaq played well against Howard and Gasol/Bynum, which was what he was brought in to do.

Shaq couldn't play heavy minutes.

lets say the Cavs and Lakers meet up in the Finals. He'll play the Lakers bigs for 25 minutes before he just start running out of gas

[Bigsmoke]

all of that may be true but its really besides the point. to say that lebron left the cavs and that there were no other major changes is simply wrong.

what about the injury to andy v? he was easily the best big on those cavs teams that won alot of games and he only played 31 games? at no point were the cavs of 09-10 the same as the cavs of 2010-2011. completely differant coaching systems. differant players. differant front office. plus injurys to major parts of the team on top of losing two bigs in Z and shaq
(regarless of how old they were).

Byron Scott is a former COY coach just like Mike Brown :confusedshrug:
I personally think Scott is better

The Cavs were already in the funk before Anderson went down. They lost 16 of their last 17 games before he got hurt. :hammerhead: 16 of their last 17
its obvious that dude in injury prone when he plays heavy minutes. he got hurt this season too.


Z didnt do much for the Heat so what made u think he would make any contribution for the Cavs

[DukeDelonte13]

Shaq couldn't play heavy minutes.

lets say the Cavs and Lakers meet up in the Finals. He'll play the Lakers bigs for 25 minutes before he just start running out of gas

well shaq played very well against them during the reg season for whats its worth. Bynum and Gasol play soft, while the cavs bigs play very physical. If I'm not mistaken the cavs took both games from the lakers, one while Mo Williams was out with an injury. They were both blowouts too. But, in the end it's no use speculating on what could have been or what could have happened. I'm only going on what happened.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Chris Bosh was never playing at the level Kevin Love is playing at right now.

i would say he's top 15 in 2010. Never top 10

I'd take 2010 Bosh over current Kevin Love, but yeah, within the top 15 in 2010. Not quite top 10, but pretty close, top 11-12 that year.

[returnofthemack]

Byron Scott is a former COY coach just like Mike Brown :confusedshrug:
I personally think Scott is better

The Cavs were already in the funk before Anderson went down. They lost 16 of their last 17 games before he got hurt. :hammerhead: 16 of their last 17
its obvious that dude in injury prone when he plays heavy minutes. he got hurt this season too.


Z didnt do much for the Heat so what made u think he would make any contribution for the Cavs


i think coach scott it much better then mike brown also. but it doesnt change the fact that it was new system (princeton offense). cavs of 2010-11 didnt have the right players to run the priceton offense (even if cavs had been at full strength they had no passing center). going from a defensive minded mike brown to running a new complicated offense is a big change.

the season started for the cavs with injurys to williams and jamison. sure they lost games with andy paling but the team was never really healthy. none knows what would have happened if mike brown came back with guys like Z shaq and west. noone knows what wouldhave happened if those injuries hadnt happened. they did and the cavs team of 09-10 was nothing at all like 10-11.

i dont care how old shaq and Z were you cant get rid of 2 bigs do nohting to replace them and then say that it doesnt matter. my whole point is they were very differant teams when you compare 09-10 to 10-11

it just bugs me when i hear people say that the only differance between those two cavs teams was lebron james. its not true any way you look at it

[Bigsmoke]

I'd take 2010 Bosh over current Kevin Love, but yeah, within the top 15 in 2010. Not quite top 10, but pretty close, top 11-12 that year.

i dont know man.

I'm not a fan of Kevin Love but i would rather have him on the Bulls than Bosh.

better rebounder, more clutch, more versatile, bang with the big boys in the paint and can hit you from the three point line.....

Just asking. In what area of the game is Bosh better than Love at? :confusedshrug:

i can only think of shot blocking. Bosh just now starting to play defense because thats Erik Spoelstra's philosophy

[Bigsmoke]

i think coach scott it much better then mike brown also. but it doesnt change the fact that it was new system (princeton offense). cavs of 2010-11 didnt have the right players to run the priceton offense (even if cavs had been at full strength they had no passing center). going from a defensive minded mike brown to running a new complicated offense is a big change.

the season started for the cavs with injurys to williams and jamison. sure they lost games with andy paling but the team was never really healthy. none knows what would have happened if mike brown came back with guys like Z shaq and west. noone knows what wouldhave happened if those injuries hadnt happened. they did and the cavs team of 09-10 was nothing at all like 10-11.

i dont care how old shaq and Z were you cant get rid of 2 bigs do nohting to replace them and then say that it doesnt matter. my whole point is they were very differant teams when you compare 09-10 to 10-11

it just bugs me when i hear people say that the only differance between those two cavs teams was lebron james. its not true any way you look at it

The Cavs would be something like 53-29 with LeBron James on that 2011 Cavs team if he was still on that team.

The Heat would win like 55 games with Wade, Bosh, and Beasley tho'. depends what kind of center they get too.

[Nash]

How bout injuries?
What significant injuries are you talking about? They always started with Mo, Jamison, Varejao, Parker and sometimes Hickson before Mo Williams got traded. All players who used to start with Lebron and they went 60+. Before Mo got traded they were 10-47..

[returnofthemack]

What significant injuries are you talking about? They always started with Mo, Jamison, Varejao, Parker and sometimes Hickson before Mo Williams got traded. All players who used to start with Lebron and they went 60+. Before Mo got traded they were 10-47..


are you high or somthing? did you just skip over the post that showed the minutes of the cavs from 09-10 compared to 10-11? here ill repost it for you.

posted from an outside source.

The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of LeBron James (2966), Mo Williams (2359), Anthony Parker (2289), Anderson Varejao (2166), J.J. Hickson (1691), Delonte West (1500), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (1339) and Shaquille O'Neal (1240); the same players (in slightly different order) led the team in minutes per game, with Antawn Jamison (32.4 mpg in 25 games) joining the team down the stretch and Hickson and Ilgauskas each averaging 20.9 mpg overall as the eighth/ninth men in a very deep frontcourt rotation.

The 2011 Cavs went 19-63 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of J.J. Hickson (2256), Ramon Sessions (2133), Anthony Parker (2091), Daniel Gibson (1865), Antawn Jamison (1842), Ryan Hollins (1182), Mo Williams (1065) and Anderson Varejao (994). Williams played in just 36 games before being traded for Baron Davis (who ranked eighth on the team in minutes per game but only played in 15 games as a Cav), while Varejao played in just 31 games. That roster has no quality legitimate big men (other than the injured Varejao) and bears little resemblance to the previous roster.

For those who cannot be bothered to compare/contrast the data in the previous two paragraphs, the 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation contained just three players from the 2010 squad's eight man rotation: the inconsistent Hickson--now thrust into the role as the team's leader in minutes played--plus the injured Varejao and Williams, who was limited by nagging injuries before being traded to the Clippers. The 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation also included just three players from the 2009 squad's eight man rotation: Gibson (a non-starting three point specialist in 2009 who started 15 games in 2011) plus the aforementioned Williams and Varejao. If Jamison, Williams and Varejao had been the 2011 Cavs' top three players in minutes played (instead of fifth, seventh and eighth) the Cavs would have posted a much better record.

The Cavs not only lost their best player but they also essentially rebooted their entire franchise from top to bottom: the Cavs fired Coach Mike Brown (the 2009 NBA Coach of the Year) and shortly afterward General Manager Danny Ferry (the 2009 NBA Executive of the Year) resigned.


does that not make any sense to you? maybe you should go back to first grade and learn how to read

[Bigsmoke]

are you high or somthing? did you just skip over the post that showed the minutes of the cavs from 09-10 compared to 10-11? here ill repost it for you.

posted from an outside source.

The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of LeBron James (2966), Mo Williams (2359), Anthony Parker (2289), Anderson Varejao (2166), J.J. Hickson (1691), Delonte West (1500), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (1339) and Shaquille O'Neal (1240); the same players (in slightly different order) led the team in minutes per game, with Antawn Jamison (32.4 mpg in 25 games) joining the team down the stretch and Hickson and Ilgauskas each averaging 20.9 mpg overall as the eighth/ninth men in a very deep frontcourt rotation.

The 2011 Cavs went 19-63 with an eight man rotation (based on total minutes played) of J.J. Hickson (2256), Ramon Sessions (2133), Anthony Parker (2091), Daniel Gibson (1865), Antawn Jamison (1842), Ryan Hollins (1182), Mo Williams (1065) and Anderson Varejao (994). Williams played in just 36 games before being traded for Baron Davis (who ranked eighth on the team in minutes per game but only played in 15 games as a Cav), while Varejao played in just 31 games. That roster has no quality legitimate big men (other than the injured Varejao) and bears little resemblance to the previous roster.

For those who cannot be bothered to compare/contrast the data in the previous two paragraphs, the 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation contained just three players from the 2010 squad's eight man rotation: the inconsistent Hickson--now thrust into the role as the team's leader in minutes played--plus the injured Varejao and Williams, who was limited by nagging injuries before being traded to the Clippers. The 2011 Cavs' eight man rotation also included just three players from the 2009 squad's eight man rotation: Gibson (a non-starting three point specialist in 2009 who started 15 games in 2011) plus the aforementioned Williams and Varejao. If Jamison, Williams and Varejao had been the 2011 Cavs' top three players in minutes played (instead of fifth, seventh and eighth) the Cavs would have posted a much better record.

The Cavs not only lost their best player but they also essentially rebooted their entire franchise from top to bottom: the Cavs fired Coach Mike Brown (the 2009 NBA Coach of the Year) and shortly afterward General Manager Danny Ferry (the 2009 NBA Executive of the Year) resigned.


does that not make any sense to you? maybe you should go back to first grade and learn how to read

dude. Nash is right on the money

The Cavs were stinking before all the injuries and trades were happening.

Z would do nothing to impact the Cavs. He was basically a catch and shoot guy when LeBron or Wade gets double teamed last year. He could not do anything else.

[returnofthemack]

dude. Nash is right on the money

The Cavs were stinking before all the injuries and trades were happening.

Z would do nothing to impact the Cavs.

dude the season started with jamison and mo not at 100 percent( the season started off with injuries). they lost Z and shaq and did nothing to replace them. changed coaches from defensive minded mike brown to running complicated princeton offense byron scott (without the proper players to be successful). they cavs most certainly did not just lose lebron james and nothing else. nashes whole point is that lebron made a bunch of scrubs win 60 plus games and look what they did when lebron left. well it wasnt the same team! what is so hard to understand about that! its not rocket science!

im not saying the cavs didnt stink before the injuries. im saying alot of other things changed besides just lebron james leaving

[Bigsmoke]

dude the season started with jamison and mo not at 100 percent. they lost Z and shaq and did nothing to replace them. changed coaches from defensive minded mike brown to running complicated princeton offense byron scott (without the proper players to be successful). they cavs most certainly did not just lose lebron james and nothing else. nashes whole point is that lebron made a bunch of scrubs win 60 plus games and look what they did when lebron left. well it wasnt the same team! what is so hard to understand about that! its not rocket science!

im not saying the cavs didnt stink before the injuries. im saying alot of other things changed besides just lebron james leaving

basically,

Mo Williams is better hurt than healthy :biggums:

The Cavs were 7-9 in their first 16 games. Thats not good but better than what happens after that

they didn't start sinking until they played the Heat. Injuries = excuses

[IGotACoolStory]

The fact of the matter is, he was a very good player putting up big stats in Toronto because he was fed the ball like he's a star. But he isn't a star in the same way LeBron and Wade are.

Danny Granger averaged in the 20's before his team caught up with him. He's still the same player he once was, that is, a good player who put up gaudy stats on an average team.

If Bosh truly were a star, he would find a way to shine. Look how stacked those Showtime Lakers were and Worthy would still find a way takeover.

Bosh just isn't at that level. He never was.

[ShaqAttack3234]

i dont know man.

I'm not a fan of Kevin Love but i would rather have him on the Bulls than Bosh.

better rebounder, more clutch, more versatile, bang with the big boys in the paint and can hit you from the three point line.....

Just asking. In what area of the game is Bosh better than Love at? :confusedshrug:

i can only think of shot blocking. Bosh just now starting to play defense because thats Erik Spoelstra's philosophy

Bosh impressed me more as a scorer in 2010 and seemed like more of a star than Love. He's also a better defender than Love, he's improved his defense in Miami, but I'd even take Bosh's defense over Love's.

Love is a much better rebounder, and a better passer, though.

I'd take Love as a 3rd option on most teams, but I'd take Bosh as the 1st or 2nd option.

[blablabla]

That doesn't explain the rebounds.
actually it does
not getting touches on offense means being less motivated on defense and rebounding, even tho boshs defense has been ok this year

[305Baller]

I would trust Bosh's jumpshot more than most other Heat players in the clutch.

[swi7ch]

He's only a star during the first half of the season because he wants to be an All-Star. After the break, he becomes a role-player for the Heat.

[Bigsmoke]

Bosh impressed me more as a scorer in 2010 and seemed like more of a star than Love. He's also a better defender than Love, he's improved his defense in Miami, but I'd even take Bosh's defense over Love's.

Love is a much better rebounder, and a better passer, though.

I'd take Love as a 3rd option on most teams, but I'd take Bosh as the 1st or 2nd option.

2010 was also his contract year.

Love FG% is lower because he shoots the three ball a lot. I agree that his defense is

[SyRyanYang]

I'll summarize this for you: Lebron makes role players look better and stars look worse

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]2010 was also his contract year.

Love FG% is lower because he shoots the three ball a lot. I agree that his defense is

[miggyme1]

The fact of the matter is, he was a very good player putting up big stats in Toronto because he was fed the ball like he's a star. But he isn't a star in the same way LeBron and Wade are.

Danny Granger averaged in the 20's before his team caught up with him. He's still the same player he once was, that is, a good player who put up gaudy stats on an average team.

If Bosh truly were a star, he would find a way to shine. Look how stacked those Showtime Lakers were and Worthy would still find a way takeover.

Bosh just isn't at that level. He never was.


U really just used the showtime lakers as an example? Bad choice. Kareem was past his prime and worthy was the teams best wingman.byron scott was good but he wasnt a star by any means.si where are u getting this stacked from like james worthy wasnt all dat good talent wise.he could play the four or the three with ease.post up,face up,blow by.a pure scorer

[SacJB Shady]

Nobody wants to hear it and they may take offense to it, but David Lee is probably a better player than Chris Bosh. He schooled him in their matchups. No disrespect to Bosh, but give more props to Lee. The numbers don't lie. Better rebounder, passer, even has a better mid range shot. And a good leader. Bosh may be able to play some kind of defense but can't rebound as well anymore.