Kevin Garnett is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time

[StateOfMind12]

Kevin Garnett is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time. I also think that KG also had the 2nd greatest peak of all-time behind Duncan. KG in his peak was better than Malone in his, Barkley in his, Dirk in his, etc. The only PF that is ahead of KG in the all-time list is Tim Duncan.

[Stern]

Agreed.

Give him a stacked team in his prime and watch him win multiple titles unlike Malone and Barkley.

[Kews1]

Agree :bowdown:

[Dwade305]

Rg riding KG's nutz, what else is facking new

[Sarcastic]

In Michael Jordan's era he would go ringless just like Malone and Barkley.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Agreed.

Give him a stacked team in his prime and watch him win multiple titles unlike Malone and Barkley.


i agree also. as great as barkley and malone were, neither were/are ****ing with duncan and garnett.

[no pun intended]

Where does McHale rank?

[Odinn]

He does have a case. But I rank him at 5th spot after Duncan, Barkley, Malone and Nowitzki. Can't go wrong with Garnett, Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki for the 2nd spot. But there is no satisfying explanation why he had only 1 deep playoff run in his prime.

[Sarcastic]

He does have a case. But I rank him at 5th spot after Duncan, Barkley, Malone and Nowitzki. Can't go wrong with Garnett, Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki for the 2nd spot. But there is no satisfying explanation why he had only 1 deep playoff run in his prime.


He played for Minnesota.

[Odinn]

i agree also. as great as barkley and malone were, neither were/are ****ing with duncan and garnett.
Give Garnett and Duncan one of the most stacked teams ever against that Bulls and they probably wouldn't have rings either. So?

[StateOfMind12]

Where does McHale rank?
I would say 6th or 7th with Pettit.

I think the top 5 PFs of all-time are obvious, the order is usually different outside of Duncan being #1.

Duncan
KG
Malone
Dirk
Barkley


He does have a case. But I rank him at 5th spot after Duncan, Barkley, Malone and Nowitzki. Can't go wrong with Garnett, Barkley, Malone or Nowitzki for the 2nd spot. But there is no satisfying explanation why he had only 1 deep playoff run in his prime.
I would say he was in his prime in '08 and he led his team to a title that season. That was KG's last season in his prime though, mainly because he suffered a serious knee injury the following season.


In Michael Jordan's era he would go ringless just like Malone and Barkley.
Rings are not what put KG above Malone and Barkley, certainly not Barkley. KG would be better than Barkley with or without rings. I'm actually not so sure if that also applies to Malone but KG did have a superior peak than Malone did.

[Stern]

The thing that separates Duncan and KG from the rest of the pfs is defense.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Give Garnett and Duncan one of the most stacked teams ever against that Bulls and they probably wouldn't have rings either. So?

i'm not arguing with you on this. jordan is one of the greats. garnett and duncan played during the jordan era too and didn't win shit.

[Odinn]

I would say he was in his prime in '08 and he led his team to a title that season. That was KG's last season in his prime though.
Yeah. I think you can say he was in his prime in 2008. Peak word would be more accurate.

[Odinn]

He played for Minnesota.
Do you have any answer for real?

[G-train]

i agree also. as great as barkley and malone were, neither were/are ****ing with duncan and garnett.

Did you have watch Barkley or Malone play?

[LastEpisode]

The thing that separates Duncan and KG from the rest of the pfs is defense.
This..

One of the reasons why I find it funny when people rank Dirk over Garnett or Malone.. You have to be able to dominate both sides of the court..

[G-train]

Teenage posters ragging out 2 of the greatest players ever, regardless of position. :facepalm
Garnett is not a better player than McHale, let alone Barkley/Malone. He is probably ranked 7-10. He went from underrated to overrated.
Malone/Barkley are probably better than Duncan as well, who was extremely fortunate to be drafted into a brilliant system with Robinson and Pop. But facts are facts and he won the titles, and he was always going to be an all time great.
Honestly people need to go watch 10-15 Malone/Barkley games and see how unbelievable they were.

[fsvr54]

Barkley didn't play great D, I'm sorry but I can't consider you the greatest if you neglect a whole 50% of the game.

[Micku]

This..

One of the reasons why I find it funny when people rank Dirk over Garnett or Malone.. You have to be able to dominate both sides of the court..

You don't always have to in order to win. If a person is mediocre at the defense, but his overwhelming offensive ability lead his team to win, then he doesn't have to be great defensively.

Mchale, Barkley, K.Malone, Duncan and Garnett are very good in their prime. Some of them do things a little better than the other, but I wouldn't say it's clear cut on who is the best if based on ability. We rank them by their accomplishment, but part of their accomplishment have to do with coaching, the right system, right role players, and a little luck.

[Jotaro Durant]

garnett one of my faves ever but he not better then malone he tied with nowitzki

[Kews1]

garnett one of my faves ever but he not better then malone he tied with nowitzki

there have been like 50 threads about Garnett vs Nowitzki, Dirk is not in KG's league. Not even close.

[LiLharvard]

Kg is coming for you Chris Bosh

[StateOfMind12]

garnett one of my faves ever but he not better then malone he tied with nowitzki
I was on the fence between KG and Dirk as well but this season actually showed me a lot about Dirk. Dirk pretty much showed me this season that he isn't as motivated to win all the time like KG is. Dirk showed up this season out of shape and his coach even had to sit him out for a few games just so he can get into basketball shape. Dirk played horrible this season in general at least compared to his own standard and he didn't have a good season at all. He was only named an all-star this season based on reputation due to winning a title last season and nothing more.

When KG won the title in 2008, the Celtics looked like they were probably going to cruise through the East again in 2009 and possibly win the title again until KG suffered that serious knee injury that ruled him out for the rest of the season. The Celtics were dominant throughout the season though and had won 60+ games that season but it is unfortunate that KG had to go down with a serious knee injury since they could have easily repeated as champions that season.

Dirk could probably carry a poor supporting better than KG could but that doesn't necessarily make him better since KG could work with average or better talent probably better than Dirk could.

Like I said, I was once on the fence between Dirk and KG but I'm probably going to take KG because of those intangibles such as being consistently motivated to consistently win. Dirk doesn't have that consistent motivation to constantly win. Dirk is simply content with one title, whereas KG wants more and more.

[iamgine]

Lets put Garnett's defense in perspective when comparing him with Dirk. People would say, "Garnett has much superior defense than Dirk while their offense are close, that's why he's much better."

True as that may be, in reality, when Dirk and KG play each other, it's not like Garnett's defense can shut Dirk down at all. Dirk still get his usual number against KG. Garnett still score lower than Dirk with lower TS percentage. So what good is it that KG has much superior defense?

[Jotaro Durant]

I was on the fence between KG and Dirk as well but this season actually showed me a lot about Dirk. Dirk pretty much showed me this season that he isn't as motivated to win all the time like KG is. Dirk showed up this season out of shape and his coach even had to sit him out for a few games just so he can get into basketball shape. Dirk played horrible this season in general at least compared to his own standard and he didn't have a good season at all. He was only named an all-star this season based on reputation due to winning a title last season and nothing more.

When KG won the title in 2008, the Celtics looked like they were probably going to cruise through the East again in 2009 and possibly win the title again until KG suffered that serious knee injury that ruled him out for the rest of the season. The Celtics were dominant throughout the season though and had won 60+ games that season but it is unfortunate that KG had to go down with a serious knee injury since they could have easily repeated as champions that season.

Dirk could probably carry a poor supporting better than KG could but that doesn't necessarily make him better since KG could work with average or better talent probably better than Dirk could.

Like I said, I was once on the fence between Dirk and KG but I'm probably going to take KG because of those intangibles such as being consistently motivated to consistently win. Dirk doesn't have that consistent motivation to constantly win. Dirk is simply content with one title, whereas KG wants more and more.
gud points but if you were on the fence of garnett and nowitzki how come u have him above malone now:confusedshrug:

[StateOfMind12]

gud points but if you were on the fence of garnett and nowitzki how come u have him above malone now:confusedshrug:
I'm considering putting both KG and Dirk above Malone and not just KG over Malone but I'm not so sure. I still wouldn't have a problem if someone were to put Malone above KG and Dirk though. I think KG was clearly better than Barkley and I would give KG the slight advantage over Dirk as I just explained in my most recent post.

KG probably wasn't more talented than Barkley but he was never some locker room headcase like Barkley was either. I actually value intangibles. I don't just base everything off of production and on-court abilities like most people do although that is a large part of determining who is better, it isn't everything.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, heres the list:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Bob Pettit
5. Charles Barkley
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Chris Webber
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Pau Gasol
10. Rasheed Wallace

KG is not top 5, sorry...

[Real Men Wear Green]

Do you have any answer for real?
Minnie tried an illegal deal with Joe Smith. Stern punished them by taking away 5 first round picks.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Nope, heres the list:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Bob Pettit
5. Charles Barkley
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Chris Webber
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Pau Gasol
10. Rasheed Wallace

Nope. 4-time All-Star, career 15 and 7?

[westsideozzie]

Garnett never dominated the ball offensively and would have been absent from the offense for long periods of time. I can't put him above Barkley and Malone because they would take over games offensively. Garnett played small forward for alot of his career as well.

Garnett also never got his man in foul trouble with his fadeway shooting self. He's a great forward, but nothing about his game rings power to it.

[jbryan1984]

Regardless of the rings and DPOTY awards that KG and Timmy have, the Mail Man is still #1 on my GOAT PF lists.

[Shepseskaf]

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. KG
4. Barkley
5. McHale
6. Hayes
7. Petit
8. Nowitzki
9. Rodman
10. Webber

[D-Wade316]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
5. Malone

[miles berg]

there have been like 50 threads about Garnett vs Nowitzki, Dirk is not in KG's league. Not even close.

Dirk is actually a tad better. Just a nose.

[Shepseskaf]

Dirk is actually a tad better. Just a nose.
No. No defense. In addition, you can't be one of the worst rebounding big men to get all-time consideration, and have anyone think of ranking you ahead of KG.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Dirk is actually a tad better. Just a nose.

What does Dirk do above average for his position, except for scoring?

[iamgine]

No. No defense. In addition, you can't be one of the worst rebounding big men to get all-time consideration, and have anyone think of ranking you ahead of KG.
The thing is, KG's defense didn't have any effect on Dirk. When they play each other, Dirk still get his usual number, outscore KG and have higher shooting efficiency.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

The thing is, KG's defense didn't have any effect on Dirk. When they play each other, Dirk still get his usual number, outscore KG and have higher shooting efficiency.

What effect does Dirk guarding KG have on Garnett's averages? I think, on average, KG forces the players he defends to have worse games, Dirk is not the typical kind of player he has to guard though.

Says a lot to me that KG is putting up 29/11 against one of the best defences in the NBA whilst Dirk is at home.

[iamgine]

What effect does Dirk guarding KG have on Garnett's averages?
I think it's better a little bit but Dirk still outscore KG and have higher shooting efficiency wehn they play each other.

[shortsoptional]

Dirk vs KG =

http://www.theatreinthepark.net/images/2010shows/Carousel.gif

[Punpun]

What does Dirk do above average for his position, except for scoring?

Dirk has way aboverage scoring though. And he doesn't have a bad D. He is not an AMare or some shit.

[Kurosawa0]

Duncan's obviously #1, but I was actually having this debate with a friend of mine.

After Timmy, you have Malone, Barkley, KG and Dirk all kinda together. Malone probably has the best stats, Barkley may have been the most unstoppable in his prime, Dirk has the ring as the main guy, but KG would the one you'd take first out of them all.

He's the best two-way player, leader and he's going to have longevity.

Malone's not going to be the backbone of my team.

Barkley was never consistently in shape.

Dirk's a beast offensively, but he's really just a one-way player. He's not going to be a main cog defensively for me.

KG has none of those weaknesses. Over his career he can score like Dirk and Malone and rebound like Barkley. KG also is by far the best defender.

I take Timmy first and always, but I agree, KG would be #2.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Dirk has way aboverage scoring though. And he doesn't have a bad D. He is not an AMare or some shit.

So basically, if you prefer Dirk, you prefer someone who does one thing way above average over someone who does pretty much everything way above average?

Dirk's top scoring average season was only 2 ppg above Garnett's, and career average is only 3.6 ppg above, on a worse %age. Garnett averages more assists (despite Dirk having better teammates throughout most of their careers), more steals, more blocks, and is undeniably a better team and man to man defender. The difference between Dirk and KG's scoring does not offset everything that KG does better.

[Pointguard]

The thing is, KG's defense didn't have any effect on Dirk. When they play each other, Dirk still get his usual number, outscore KG and have higher shooting efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01

When they played each other, before KG's injury, KG used to outscore Dirk and do everything on the court better except foul shooting and 3pt shooting. KG was much better in FG% - not to mention defense.

[Shepseskaf]

To be honest, Dirk's skillset is more of a SF than a PF.

What words are always associated with the PF position? Rebounding and defense. He does neither of these things very well.

SFs are more known for scoring. Imo, Dirk is only classed as a PF just because of his height, not because of his game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Duncan's obviously #1, but I was actually having this debate with a friend of mine.

After Timmy, you have Malone, Barkley, KG and Dirk all kinda together. Malone probably has the best stats, Barkley may have been the most unstoppable in his prime, Dirk has the ring as the main guy, but KG would the one you'd take first out of them all.

He's the best two-way player, leader and he's going to have longevity.

Malone's not going to be the backbone of my team.

Barkley was never consistently in shape.

Dirk's a beast offensively, but he's really just a one-way player. He's not going to be a main cog defensively for me.

KG has none of those weaknesses. Over his career he can score like Dirk and Malone and rebound like Barkley. KG also is by far the best defender.

I take Timmy first and always, but I agree, KG would be #2.

Good post, agreed.

[iamgine]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01

When they played each other, before KG's injury, KG used to outscore Dirk and do everything on the court better except foul shooting and 3pt shooting. KG was much better in FG% - not to mention defense.

What are you talking about? That link clearly shows Dirk outscoring KG on KG's peak years of around 2003. On every level actually. KG's peak, average or in the playoff. Especially in the playoff.

Also use TS%, not FG%. FG% is for casual fans who doesn't know any better.

[Odinn]

Let's take a quick look other all-time greats of the 2000s best playoff series;

Nowitzki;
33/16/1/3 on .526 fg against the Wolves in 2002. (vs. KG...)
27/13/3/1 on .527 fg against the Spurs in 2006.
34/12/4/1 on .534 fg against the Nuggets in 2009.


How many times did KG have a playoff series like that? Or did he even have it?
26/15/7/2 on .454 fg against the Nuggets in 2004. I guess it's the only one.

from http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260822

---

Actually claiming Garnett has no weaknesses does not feel right to me. His scoring volume not good enough IMO. He didn't prove its opposite.

[rodman91]

Kevin Garnett = Yuri Boyka of NBA. Most complete player ever.

Not 2nd though..More like 4th.

[WillC]

Bob Pettit is the second greatest power forward of all-time.

[B]

What are you talking about? That link clearly shows Dirk outscoring KG on KG's peak years of around 2003. On every level actually. KG's peak, average or in the playoff. Especially in the playoff.

Also use TS%, not FG%. FG% is for casual fans who doesn't know any better.
You argument is flawed. You're basing a players career or ranking based on 34 games. KG's career has spanned 1367 games and still growing yet for you 34 games decides it all.

[fsvr54]

I agree with the OP. Also Current KG is better than current Tim Duncan.

[ImmortalD24]

Kevin Garnett is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time. I also think that KG also had the 2nd greatest peak of all-time behind Duncan. KG in his peak was better than Malone in his, Barkley in his, Dirk in his, etc. The only PF that is ahead of KG in the all-time list is Tim Duncan.
I have KG #1.. not because he's better than Duncan, but because Duncan imo is more of a 5.

[iamgine]

[QUOTE=B

[Pointguard]

What are you talking about? That link clearly shows Dirk outscoring KG on KG's peak years of around 2003. On every level actually. KG's peak, average or in the playoff. Especially in the playoff.

Also use TS%, not FG%. FG% is for casual fans who doesn't know any better.
With big men you never use TS%. Its a crap stat that works against nearly every great big man for GOAT. It can almost be used as a reverse stat against who is best among the great big men. And it is consistently wrong with big men.

KG and Dirk scoring average is practically the same in H2H competition with Dirk scoring more practically every matchup since the injury. From 2001 (or since Dirk showed he could average was within 1 ppg of KG) to 2007 KG outscored Dirk - sobeit its close. And if Dirk had to guard KG it wouldn't be close. Rebounds, assist, steals, blocks, FG%, efficiency, defense were visably better for KG.

In the playoffs KG didn't guard Dirk. In most of the RS games he did but I can't say for sure its 90%.

[Scholar]

I think there's truth behind this statement. I can't argue the facts. KG is definitely worthy of being listed directly behind Tim Duncan as one of the best PFs of all-time; however, you can't discount Malone's longevity or Charles Barkley's athleticism/strength/rebounding ability for a 6'4" man.

In Barkley's case, just think of it this way:
He was a slightly heavier DWade running the PF spot. :eek:

[iamgine]

With big men you never use TS%. Its a crap stat that works against nearly every great big man for GOAT. It can almost be used as a reverse stat against who is best among the great big men. And it is consistently wrong with big men.

KG and Dirk scoring average is practically the same in H2H competition with Dirk scoring more practically every matchup since the injury. From 2001 (or since Dirk showed he could average was within 1 ppg of KG) to 2007 KG outscored Dirk - sobeit its close. And if Dirk had to guard KG it wouldn't be close. Rebounds, assist, steals, blocks, FG%, efficiency, defense were visably better for KG.

In the playoffs KG didn't guard Dirk. In most of the RS games he did but I can't say for sure its 90%.
Never use ts% for big men? Lmao. Never mind.

[Pointguard]

Never use ts% for big men? Lmao. Never mind.
LOL, you name me five big men that TS works positively for and I will put them against Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, TD, KG all are guys whose TS improves or 50 or less points over their FG% and I will put them up against any 7 guys you name whose TS% rises above 50 or more points above their FG%.

Dirk's TS% shoots up over 100 points. Now do you get it??? So why don't you put up a team of great big men whose TS% to FG% is like Dirk's? This should be interesting.

Now do you know why I call it a garbage stat for big men.

[tpols]

LOL, you name me five big men that TS works positively for and I will put them against Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, TD, KG all are guys whose TS improves or 50 or less points over their FG% and I will put them up against any 7 guys you name whose TS% rises above 50 or more points above their FG%.

Dirk's TS% shoots up over 100 points. Now do you get it??? So why don't you put up a team of great big men whose TS% to FG% is like Dirk's? This should be interesting.

Now do you know why I call it a garbage stat for big men.
Dirk's style is that of a perimeter player while KG's isnt. Does Dirk play like Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem?:oldlol: It's perfectly fine to use TS for Dirk.. you dont have to for KG but regardless Dirk is a much better scorer than KG. You cant really argue that.

[StateOfMind12]

I agree with the OP. Also Current KG is better than current Tim Duncan.
Obviously...

KG has been better than Duncan since 2008 but Duncan was better than KG pretty much every year before that except 2004.



Actually claiming Garnett has no weaknesses does not feel right to me. His scoring volume not good enough IMO. He didn't prove its opposite.
He could have improved his scoring ability but that doesn't mean it was a weakness. He was more than capable of being able to score. He was the #1 option on that 2008 championship Celtics team. Pierce and Ray outscored him in the Finals but KG was the overall ppg leader in the playoffs and in every series before then.

[DMAVS41]

Maybe.

Duncan is clearly the best ever. After that you have KG, Pettit, Dirk, Barkley, and Malone all on the same tier.

I didn't see Pettit play, but by his resume and historical writings he deserves to be in that group.

In terms of the guys I saw play I'd rank KG 2nd, Dirk 3rd, Malone 4th, and Barkley 5th.

I have previously said I thought Dirk would pass KG on my list because I thought his game would age better. But this year has been crazy for KG. Dirk is still the better player at this point, but not by nearly as much as it has been for the last few years.

I mean. KG is putting up 20/11/2 in the playoffs so far and is playing some of the best, if not the best, defense in the league. He's 36 years old and in his 17th year. Amazing....

[Odinn]

KG has been better than Duncan since 2008 but Duncan was better than KG pretty much every year before that except 2004.
I do not think Garnett was better than Duncan in 2008-09 season or 2009-10 season. This was mainly coz of Garnett's injury but Duncan was the better player between these two until 2010-11 season.


He could have improved his scoring ability but that doesn't mean it was a weakness. He was more than capable of being able to score. He was the #1 option on that 2008 championship Celtics team. Pierce and Ray outscored him in the Finals but KG was the overall ppg leader in the playoffs and in every series before then.
Garnett was the best Celtic in 2007-08 season but I do not think he could fit into regular "1st option". The Celtics didn't play with the "one 1st option and supporter cast" game plan.

Also this was a political answer. Please answer to this; how many times KG averaged 25 ppg in a playoff series?
(Dirk's entire po ppg; 25.9
Malone's entire po ppg; 26.3 - excluding his last season as a Laker
Duncan had 25+ ppg series 11 times.
Barkley had 25+ ppg series 11 times)

[Round Mound]

That would go to either Duncan or Malone

[G-train]

If we are gonna be real bball analysts and not ESPN nut suckers, Duncan is a centre and Dirk is a small forward. If you think otherwise, suck it sucker.

:pimp:

[bizil]

I think Timmy is clearly the GOAT PF. After that I got Malone, KG, Barkley, and Dirk. But u can argue KG as the 2nd GOAT PF though.

In terms of peak value, I think Barkley, KG, and Timmy are the top three PF's of all time. I realize Timmy and KG were effective on the defensive end. But I think Barkley could take a game by the throat better than KG or Timmy on the offensive end. Barkley similar to KG had point forward type ability and played plenty of SF. But Chuck exhibited that point forward skill more in the open court or transiton than KG.

[chazzy]

That would go to either Duncan or Malone
lol

[DMAVS41]

That would go to either Duncan or Malone

:mad:

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

Yeah your right give me prime KG and I will be guaranteed long playoff runs every year...Oh wait he only got out of the first round 1 year on Minnesota and that's because he had the 1 seed LOL. KG had plenty of all-stars throughout his tenure in Minnesota as well so I don't want to hear his cast sucked. Truly great players find ways to win regardless.

Give me Dirk over this tribesman easily. you know, the guy that can actually lead his team deep in the playoffs. KG did nothing until he went to the East and played on a stacked Celtics team LOL.

Your not winning a title if KG is your primary option on offense, unless your team is extraordinarily stacked. He needs a go-to scorer on his team while a guy like Dirk IS the go-to scorer.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah your right give me prime KG and I will be guaranteed long playoff runs every year...Oh wait he only got out of the first round 1 year on Minnesota and that's because he had the 1 seed LOL. KG had plenty of all-stars throughout his tenure in Minnesota as well so I don't want to hear his cast sucked. Truly great players find ways to win regardless.

Give me Dirk over this tribesman easily. you know, the guy that can actually lead his team deep in the playoffs. KG did nothing until he went to the East and played on a stacked Celtics team LOL.

Your not winning a title if KG is your primary option on offense, unless your team is extraordinarily stacked. He needs a go-to scorer on his team while a guy like Dirk IS the go-to scorer.

Its all about complementing your strengths and weaknesses well. KG needs a guy like Paul Pierce as his running mate. Dirk needs a guy like Chandler in addition to quality shooters and perimeter defenders.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world, but acting like KG can't be the best player on title winning teams is just false. Hell, KG was definitely the best player in 08 on the Celtics.

Shaq needed elite sg's. Kobe has needed elite front courts. KG needing the likes of a Paul Pierce / Ray Allen is no different.

Duncan is the guy that needed less help historically than just about any other player to win multiple titles. And even then, that doesn't make him better than he actually is.

The simple truth, and its the same in all these threads, is that after Duncan you can rank Dirk, KG, Barkley, Pettit, and Malone in any order. None of them have done anything to separate themselves like Duncan did. I personally rank KG 2nd now after what he's been able to do this year...

[G-train]

Its all about complementing your strengths and weaknesses well. KG needs a guy like Paul Pierce as his running mate. Dirk needs a guy like Chandler in addition to quality shooters and perimeter defenders.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world, but acting like KG can't be the best player on title winning teams is just false. Hell, KG was definitely the best player in 08 on the Celtics.

Shaq needed elite sg's. Kobe has needed elite front courts. KG needing the likes of a Paul Pierce / Ray Allen is no different.

Duncan is the guy that needed less help historically than just about any other player to win multiple titles. And even then, that doesn't make him better than he actually is.

The simple truth, and its the same in all these threads, is that after Duncan you can rank Dirk, KG, Barkley, Pettit, and Malone in any order. None of them have done anything to separate themselves like Duncan did. I personally rank KG 2nd now after what he's been able to do this year...

Garbage in every paragraph pretty much.

[D.J.]

Duncan, Barkley, and Malone all rank higher than KG. You can also argue Dirk, McHale, and Pettit as well.

[DMAVS41]

Garbage in every paragraph pretty much.

Ok.

I'd love to hear you tell me how KG wasn't the best player on the 08 Celtics.

[97 bulls]

Its all about complementing your strengths and weaknesses well. KG needs a guy like Paul Pierce as his running mate. Dirk needs a guy like Chandler in addition to quality shooters and perimeter defenders.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world, but acting like KG can't be the best player on title winning teams is just false. Hell, KG was definitely the best player in 08 on the Celtics.

Shaq needed elite sg's. Kobe has needed elite front courts. KG needing the likes of a Paul Pierce / Ray Allen is no different.

Duncan is the guy that needed less help historically than just about any other player to win multiple titles. And even then, that doesn't make him better than he actually is.

The simple truth, and its the same in all these threads, is that after Duncan you can rank Dirk, KG, Barkley, Pettit, and Malone in any order. None of them have done anything to separate themselves like Duncan did. I personally rank KG 2nd now after what he's been able to do this year...
Great post dmavs.

[Hittin_Shots]

Yeah your right give me prime KG and I will be guaranteed long playoff runs every year...Oh wait he only got out of the first round 1 year on Minnesota and that's because he had the 1 seed LOL. KG had plenty of all-stars throughout his tenure in Minnesota as well so I don't want to hear his cast sucked. Truly great players find ways to win regardless.

Give me Dirk over this tribesman easily. you know, the guy that can actually lead his team deep in the playoffs. KG did nothing until he went to the East and played on a stacked Celtics team LOL.

Your not winning a title if KG is your primary option on offense, unless your team is extraordinarily stacked. He needs a go-to scorer on his team while a guy like Dirk IS the go-to scorer.

I dont like any post ive read of yours.

[Shepseskaf]

In terms of the guys I saw play I'd rank KG 2nd, Dirk 3rd, Malone 4th, and Barkley 5th.
Why don't you change that order, and place Dirk in 5th, or 6th if you put Bob Petit in there.

The most defining skillset of a Power Forward is the ability to rebound. Every member of the Top 5 should be a 20/10 player. Dirk is not.

Maybe we should just call him a "powerless forward" or perhaps re-categorize him as a very tall Small Forward, which i think he is, by skillset.

[DMAVS41]

Why don't you change that order, and place Dirk in 5th, or 6th if you put Bob Petit in there.

The most defining skillset of a Power Forward is the ability to rebound. Every member of the Top 5 should be a 20/10 player. Dirk is not.

Maybe we should just call him a "powerless forward" or perhaps re-categorize him as a very tall Small Forward, which i think he is, by skillset.

If you don't want to call him a power forward that is fine. If we are just talking about their impact as players....I'd rank them in that order.

Oh, and Dirk has averaged over 10 rebounds his entire career in the playoffs. You know, when the games actually matter.

[Shepseskaf]

Oh, and Dirk has averaged over 10 rebounds his entire career in the playoffs. You know, when the games actually matter.
No, you don't get to cherry pick stats. If you want Dirk to be listed in the top 5, then you have to look at his entire career.

[DMAVS41]

No, you don't get to cherry pick stats. If you want Dirk to be listed in the top 5, then you have to look at his entire career.

And his entire career is just as, if not more, impressive than all of those guys.

What is more important? 2 rebounds more a game in the regular season or being 1 of 4 players in nba history to average over 25/10 in the playoffs.

Or leading a team without an elite 2nd option with different coaches/players to the third longest streak of over 50 wins in nba history.

By all means, take in his entire career. If you do, he's definitely ranked over Barkley and Malone. They never won anything. So if we are ranking careers, its over. Sorry....

Because if you objectively look at what he's accomplished in his career given the era he played in and his help/coaching....there is just no way you can say Malone or Barkley or KG or Pettit deserve to be on a different level.

It takes huge bias and getting mad at Dirk for not playing in the mold of a traditional power forward. Who the **** cares when the results speak for themselves.

And its just hilarious. The fact that Dirk isn't a traditional pf is exactly what makes his impact so great. But I do enjoy you putting more emphasis on meaningless regular season games (in which of course Dirk has historically great success) over playoff games. Makes sense.....

[Shepseskaf]

And his entire career is just as, if not more, impressive than all of those guys.

What is more important? 2 rebounds more a game in the regular season or being 1 of 4 players in nba history to average over 25/10 in the playoffs.

Or leading a team without an elite 2nd option with different coaches/players to the third longest streak of over 50 wins in nba history.

By all means, take in his entire career. If you do, he's definitely ranked over Barkley and Malone. They never won anything. So if we are ranking careers, its over. Sorry....
Cherry picking, again. Maybe we should look at the fact that he has been knocked out in the first round, and swept, more than anyone else under discussion.

One championship does not cure a career of post-season ineptitude. Don't give me individual stats -- how much did he team win? How many times did they advance when favored?

[DMAVS41]

Cherry picking, again. Maybe we should look at the fact that he has been knocked out in the first round, and swept, more than anyone else under discussion.

One championship does not cure a career of post-season ineptitude. Don't give me individual stats -- how much did he team win? How many times did they advance when favored?

ROFL....so biased and pathetic. You lack any objectivity on the subject.

Don't give you individual play? So we are ranking teams now? So Dirk is penalized because he didn't play on great teams?

Why on earth would we be talking about how inept Jason Terry and Neliie/Avery are when ranking Dirk all time.

Its about what he did.

And if you want to make it all about the team. 11 straight 50 win seasons. 2 trips to the finals. 3 trips to the WCF. 1 title. Turned around one of the worst franchises in all of sports to one of the best over the last decade plus.

All of that to go along with some of the best playoff numbers of all time.

Yep. He just can't hang with those other guys who accomplished less.

[Shepseskaf]

ROFL....so biased and pathetic. You lack any objectivity on the subject.

Don't give you individual play? So we are ranking teams now? So Dirk is penalized because he didn't play on great teams?

Why on earth would we be talking about how inept Jason Terry and Neliie/Avery are when ranking Dirk all time.

Its about what he did.

And if you want to make it all about the team. 11 straight 50 win seasons. 2 trips to the finals. 3 trips to the WCF. 1 title.

All of that to go along with some of the best playoff numbers of all time.

Yep. He just can't hang with those other guys who accomplished less.
Do you have any self-awareness at all? :roll:

If there is anyone who "lacks objectivity" on the subject of Dirk, its you.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, you don't get to cherry pick stats. If you want Dirk to be listed in the top 5, then you have to look at his entire career.

Dirk is Top 5.

[chips93]

re-categorize him as a very tall Small Forward, which i think he is, by skillset.

small forwards dont post up like dirk does

small forwards dont set picks like dirk does

small forwards move off of the ball much more than dirk does

small forwards play on the perimeter far more than dirk does

dirk is certainly not a typical power forward, but hes a helluva lot closer to a standard PF than a standard SF

[DMAVS41]

Do you have any self-awareness at all? :roll:

If there is anyone who "lacks objectivity" on the subject of Dirk, its you.

You think I do? I've repeatedly said you can rank them all in any order. Which is the very definition of objective when it concerns my favorite player.

You, on the other hand, continue to assert that Dirk can't be a top 5 power forward because he doesn't fit the traditional mold.

And you think others that rank him there are "Dirk homers"....

Well, I can rattle off plenty of people and lists that aren't "Dirk homers" that currently rank him higher than every guy you mentioned. LOL

[Shepseskaf]

Dirk is Top 5.
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley
5. Pettit

[Shepseskaf]

Well, I can rattle off plenty of people and lists that aren't "Dirk homers" that currently rank him higher than every guy you mentioned. LOL
And plenty of lists don't, so there you go.

[DMAVS41]

And plenty of lists don't, so there you go.

After the title? Find me "plenty" of lists that don't rank Dirk neck and neck with those guys.

[Shepseskaf]

small forwards dont post up like dirk does

small forwards dont set picks like dirk does

small forwards move off of the ball much more than dirk does

small forwards play on the perimeter far more than dirk does

dirk is certainly not a typical power forward, but hes a helluva lot closer to a standard PF than a standard SF
I don't agree with a single thing you just posted. However, I was more focusing on Dirk's lack of rebounding and interior presence, which is a staple for the power forward position.

If he's "not a typical power forward", as you said, then just maybe he shouldn't be ranked as one of the top 5 at that position.

[Legends66NBA7]

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley
5. Pettit

I actually should have stated that I have Dirk as a Top 5 PF.

If you don't have him, that's fine.

It's not unanimous that Dirk isn't a Top 5 PF though.

[Shepseskaf]

After the title? Find me "plenty" of lists that don't rank Dirk neck and neck with those guys.
Depends on what you mean by "neck and neck". Even given his deficiencies, I agree that Dirk is certainly top 10.

Here's a list, for example, that lists him #8 -- after Elvin Hayes and Kevin McHale.


8) Dirk Nowitzki - Dallas Mavericks - 1998 - present

Career accomplishments

- member of one NBA championship team
- one-time NBA MVP
- one-time NBA Finals MVP
- 10-time NBA All-Star
- 11-time All-NBA selection

"Before last season, it's questionable as to whether I'd even have Dirk on this list. Don't get me wrong: very few players at this position are as offensively talented as Dirk... but prior to the 2011 Finals, there were times when he was found wanting. 2011 wasn't one of them. He flat-out put the Mavs on his back, and they rode him to a championship. Simply awe-inspiring." - Don

"Dirk gained his redemption and validation in the 2011 Finals when he took over and stepped up on a big stage. That was always the knock on Nowitzki because there simply is not much to hate. Dirk can hit jumpers seemingly from anywhere and very few players could contest his shots. There has never been a 7-footer that plays like he does. Nowitzki is likely the best player ever to emigrate from Europe to the NBA." - Philip

[Shepseskaf]

I actually should have stated that I have Dirk as a Top 5 PF.

If you don't have him, that's fine.

It's not unanimous that Dirk isn't a Top 5 PF though.
Understood. Everyone has their point of view, and sometimes people have to agree to disagree.

[DMAVS41]

Depends on what you mean by "neck and neck". Even given his deficiencies, I agree that Dirk is certainly top 10.

Here's a list, for example, that lists him #8 -- after Elvin Hayes and Kevin McHale.

Well. What should I say. Ranking Hayes and McHale over Dirk is just flat out retarded imo.

Agree to disagree. Neither of us are going to budge.

I think you would have valid points if Dirk didn't have the career he actually had. You simply can't deny what he's accomplished and he's done that with good but not great help.

Every other player/team that accomplished 11 straight or more 50 win seasons had far better coaching and supporting casts. Most teams that win the title have far more help than the Mavs etc.

And then again. You have a stat line of 26/10/3 on the highest overall efficiency of any player scoring over 25ppg in nba history. And a player that has been extremely clutch his entire career as well.

Like I said. Agree to disagree.

[Shepseskaf]

Like I said. Agree to disagree.
Ok, then let's leave it at that, then. Doesn't seem that either of us is going to move off of our opinions on this.

[Round Mound]

Garnett is a Great Player but he Never was Better than Barkley, Duncan or Malone

He is Around the Level of Dirk...who plays more like a SF...so Does Garnett Offensively

[Legends66NBA7]

Understood. Everyone has their point of view, and sometimes people have to agree to disagree.

Alright, that's cool.

Where did you quote that from by the way (the list off Dirk #8) ?

[Shepseskaf]

Alright, that's cool.

Where did you quote that from by the way (the list off Dirk #8) ?

From this link. (http://www.hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/basketball/top-10-nba-power-forwards-of-all-time.html)

[bizil]

When it comes to these arguments its kinda simple to me. For example, if somebody says KG is the 2nd GOAT PF, it doesn't seem outta the realm of possibility. I may disagree, but a solid case can be made. KG has the ring Malone doesn't, redefined his position, has great longevity being an All-Star to superstar type player, and is in my opinion the best all around PF of all time. Malone has those gaudy scoring numbers, redefined the PF spot during his time, and had epic longevity being a great player.

The only positions that are mortal lock to me in the GOAT sweepstakes are Magic at PG and MJ at SG. Other than that, every other position isn't as mortal of a lock. At SF, sure Bird is still the man. But if u look at Dr. J's total pro resume, Bird isn't THAT much ahead of Dr. J. Hondo also has epic credentials himself. And Bron appears to be a freight train that is gonna mow straight to the top SF's. And on a collision course with Bird at the top. Timmy to me is the man at PF, but's he's not as mortal of a lock as MJ or Magic. And at center, many argue Kareem, Wilt, and Russ as the GOAT center.

[lilgodfather1]

When it comes to these arguments its kinda simple to me. For example, if somebody says KG is the 2nd GOAT PF, it doesn't seem outta the realm of possibility. I may disagree, but a solid case can be made. KG has the ring Malone doesn't, redefined his position, has great longevity being an All-Star to superstar type player, and is in my opinion the best all around PF of all time. Malone has those gaudy scoring numbers, redefined the PF spot during his time, and had epic longevity being a great player.

The only positions that are mortal lock to me in the GOAT sweepstakes are Magic at PG and MJ at SG. Other than that, every other position isn't as mortal of a lock. At SF, sure Bird is still the man. But if u look at Dr. J's total pro resume, Bird isn't THAT much ahead of Dr. J. Hondo also has epic credentials himself. And Bron appears to be a freight train that is gonna mow straight to the top SF's. And on a collision course with Bird at the top. Timmy to me is the man at PF, but's he's not as mortal of a lock as MJ or Magic. And at center, many argue Kareem, Wilt, and Russ as the GOAT center.
Of all of the GOAT's you mentioned I find it very telling that the only two players you can say are 100% the best players at their positions ever are the guards. LeBron is better than Bird is clearly an argument that one can make (and I would), Malone is better than Duncan, or Barkley/Garnett is better than Duncan, and lastly there is no true GOAT C as you say. There are literally 5 C's that you could say was the best of all time depending on how you rank them. Shaq was the most dominant, Wilt was the statistical monster, KAJ has the records, Russell has the rings, and Hakeem has the all around game.

It really is quite the accomplishment for MJ and MJ to be unanimously the best players to ever play their respective positions. Or maybe it is a testament to how underwhelming their competition was/is.

[D-Wade316]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
5. Malone
:applause:

[Round Mound]

Garnett shot 47.5% FG in the Play-Offs

Thats NOT GOAT PF Material

He is a Top 5-6 PF All Time

[D-Wade316]

Garnett shot 47.5% FG in the Play-Offs

Thats NOT GOAT PF Material

He is a Top 5-6 PF All Time
Playoff PER:
Duncan - 25.38
Dirk - 24.71
Barkley - 24.18
Garnett - 21.86
Malone - 21.12

RS:
Duncan - 24.75
Dirk - 23.63
Barkley - 24.63
Garnett - 23.32
Malone - 23.90

And he is the best defender among that group, and it ain't even close.

:facepalm

Garnett > Barkley, Malone. Deal with it.

[Bernie Nips]

Garnett shot 47.5% FG in the Play-Offs

Thats NOT GOAT PF Material

He is a Top 5-6 PF All Time

Barkley didn't win it all in the Play-Offs

Thats NOT GOAT PF Material

He is a Top 4 PF All Time

[Legends66NBA7]

Playoff PER:
Duncan - 25.38
Dirk - 24.71
Barkley - 24.18
Garnett - 21.86
Malone - 21.12

RS:
Duncan - 24.75
Dirk - 23.63
Barkley - 24.63
Garnett - 23.32
Malone - 23.90

And he is the best defender among that group, and it ain't even close.

:facepalm

Garnett > Barkley, Malone. Deal with it.

Are you using their career PER's ?

[chips93]

I don't agree with a single thing you just posted. However, I was more focusing on Dirk's lack of rebounding and interior presence, which is a staple for the power forward position.

so he doesnt protect the rim, and his rebounding is only average

he still scores on the low block, plays great in the pick and roll

hes far closer to a typical PF than a typical SF


If he's "not a typical power forward", as you said, then just maybe he shouldn't be ranked as one of the top 5 at that position.

i hate assigning these roles to positions

a basketball player should help his team win games, whether that stays within the archetype of what a player of a certain height is, is irrelevant imo

he helps his team win games, and he plays the PF position.

thats all that should matter, not if he fulfills some outdated idea of what each position should do on the basketball court

[shortsoptional]

so he doesnt protect the rim, and his rebounding is only average

he still scores on the low block, plays great in the pick and roll

hes far closer to a typical PF than a typical SF



i hate assigning these roles to positions

a basketball player should help his team win games, whether that stays within the archetype of what a player of a certain height is, is irrelevant imo

he helps his team win games, and he plays the PF position.

thats all that should matter, not if he fulfills some outdated idea of what each position should do on the basketball court


:applause:

[StateOfMind12]

:applause:
I would put Malone above Barkley but aside from that I like that list. Barkley was probably more talented than all of them actually but he had too many off-court problems, inconsistencies, and was out of shape frequently. The intangibles is why KG is so high for me and it is why Barkley is low for me.

[Pointguard]

Dirk's style is that of a perimeter player while KG's isnt. Does Dirk play like Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem?:oldlol: It's perfectly fine to use TS for Dirk.. you dont have to for KG but regardless Dirk is a much better scorer than KG. You cant really argue that.
:lol Are you serious? The argument is about TS% as a stat for big men. Do you understand that?

Dirk was a impressive scorer and a great player and in the playoffs he was a excellent rebounder. That's not for discussion. He wasn't a much better scorer than KG, that's for sure. Dirk was never a top tier scorer but was usually a second tier scorer. KG was usually a second tier scorer but on the lower rung. Not equal to Dirk but not always on a different level. KG usually shot more efficiently as well.

[tpols]

:lol Are you serious? The argument is about TS% as a stat for big men. Do you understand that?

Dirk was a impressive scorer and a great player and in the playoffs he was a excellent rebounder. That's not for discussion. He wasn't a much better scorer than KG, that's for sure. Dirk was never a top tier scorer but was usually a second tier scorer. KG was usually a second tier scorer but on the lower rung. Not equal to Dirk but not always on a different level. KG usually shot more efficiently as well.
In the playoffs Dirk has PPG averages of:

28ppg 49%FG
28ppg 45%FG
27ppg 54%FG
27ppg 52%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG

He has shot at 25ppg or higher EIGHT times and is a career 46%FG shooter(although you can see he shoots higher than that in his top scoring runs).

Garnett?

27ppg 51%FG
24ppg 43%FG
24ppg 45%FG
21ppg 47%FG
22ppg 44%FG
20ppg 50%FG
20ppg 50%FG
19ppg 39%FG

Garnett has ONE season above 25ppg on the playoffs, and as a whole shoots 1% higher FG than Dirk while being beat by:
-8% in 3pt long range shooter where Dirk shoots well over 50%eFG
-10% from the stripe while attempting DOUBLE the amount of attempts and getting to the line much more often

So he has a huge advantage in scoring efficiency and a 5+ppg volume disparity. You are an idiot if you think Garnett is a better SCORER than Dirk(I'm not saying offensive player as a whole, although he's better at that too.. but thats for a different day. KG has his huge advantage on D)

[Pointguard]

In the playoffs Dirk has PPG averages of:

28ppg 49%FG
28ppg 45%FG
27ppg 54%FG
27ppg 52%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG
27ppg 47%FG

He has shot at 25ppg or higher EIGHT times and is a career 46%FG shooter(although you can see he shoots higher than that in his top scoring runs).

Garnett?

27ppg 51%FG
24ppg 43%FG
24ppg 45%FG
21ppg 47%FG
22ppg 44%FG
20ppg 50%FG
20ppg 50%FG
19ppg 39%FG

Garnett has ONE season above 25ppg on the playoffs, and as a whole shoots 1% higher FG than Dirk while being beat by:
-8% in 3pt long range shooter where Dirk shoots well over 50%eFG
-10% from the stripe while attempting DOUBLE the amount of attempts and getting to the line much more often

So he has a huge advantage in scoring efficiency and a 5+ppg volume disparity. You are an idiot if you think Garnett is a better SCORER than Dirk(I'm not saying offensive player as a whole, although he's better at that too.. but thats for a different day. KG has his huge advantage on D)
I said like four times already that Dirk was a better scorer. I did say that when KG guarded Dirk that equalized the scoring or tilted it in KG's favor. And if Dirk had guarded KG, KG would have outscored him consistently. Rebounds, assist, steals, blocks, play making and defense were almost always in KG's favor throughout their careers.

[tpols]

I said like four times already that Dirk was a better scorer. I did say that when KG guarded Dirk that equalized the scoring or tilted it in KG's favor. And if Dirk had guarded KG, KG would have outscored him consistently. Rebounds, assist, steals, blocks, play making and defense were almost always in KG's favor throughout their careers.
You said it was close and that Dirk was a second tier scorer.. which he really wasnt at all. If not for his scoring ability, Dirk would literally be your average NBA PF. Because of his scoring ability, he is a top 30 GOAT. Thats how good his scoring is.

[Pointguard]

You said it was close and that Dirk was a second tier scorer.. which he really wasnt at all. If not for his scoring ability, Dirk would literally be your average NBA PF. Because of his scoring ability, he is a top 30 GOAT. Thats how good his scoring is.
I think Dirk gets that for being a clutch scorer and for team accomplishments. Dirk was never an Iverson, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Jordan, Dominique, TMac, Gervin, Dantley, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Rick Barry, Bird, Karl Malone, McAdoo type of scorer. Dirk couldn't get 30ppg in the regular season or for a full playoff run - those are the guys I call the top tier. Dirk never was a top three scorer (btw KG was once). Its not right to say Dirk was scoring like those guys were. The top tier guys are the guys who cross that hard threshold of 28ppg or occupy the top three spots for a few years. The second tier is usually between 27 and 22 points per game or in the top ten for a few years.

Guys like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and Gilbert Arenas are never called top tier but they are similar scoring wise to Dirk in a few ways.

[DMAVS41]

I think Dirk gets that for being a clutch scorer and for team accomplishments. Dirk was never an Iverson, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Jordan, Dominique, TMac, Gervin, Dantley, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Rick Barry, Bird, Karl Malone, McAdoo type of scorer. Dirk couldn't get 30ppg in the regular season or for a full playoff run - those are the guys I call the top tier. Dirk never was a top three scorer (btw KG was once). Its not right to say Dirk was scoring like those guys were. The top tier guys are the guys who cross that hard threshold of 28ppg or occupy the top three spots for a few years. The second tier is usually between 27 and 22 points per game or in the top ten for a few years.

Guys like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and Gilbert Arenas are never called top tier but they are similar scoring wise to Dirk in a few ways.

You do realize that Dirk is 7th all time in playoff ppg. On the best TS% of the top 7. Hardly 2nd tier.

[StateOfMind12]

Your not winning a title if KG is your primary option on offense, unless your team is extraordinarily stacked. He needs a go-to scorer on his team while a guy like Dirk IS the go-to scorer.
KG was the primary option on the 2008 Celtics team that won the title. You do realize that KG led the team in ppg in the post-season right?

With KG on your team, you need to compliment him with a reliable 2nd option or a reliable closer, so a player like Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Sam Cassell, etc. were all perfect. With Dirk on your team, you need a defensive anchor next to him to hinder his defensive weaknesses, so a player like Tyson Chandler was perfect next to him.

It's a matter of personnel between these two since they are completely different PFs. I think it is easier to find a reliable scorer/closer than a legitimate defensive anchor though but that's not the reason or at least the only reason why I would take KG over Dirk.

[Fuhrer Hubbs]

KG was the primary option on the 2008 Celtics team that won the title. You do realize that KG led the team in ppg in the regular season and in the post-season right? He just didn't lead the team in ppg in the Finals that season but that was about it.

With KG on your team, you need to compliment him with a reliable 2nd option or a reliable closer, so a player like Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Sam Cassell, etc. were all perfect. With Dirk on your team, you need a defensive anchor next to him to hinder his defensive weaknesses, so a player like Tyson Chandler was perfect next to him.

It's a matter of personnel between these two since they are completely different PFs. I think it is easier to find a reliable scorer/closer than a legitimate defensive anchor though but that's not the reason or at least the only reason why I would take KG over Dirk.

Pierce: 19.6 PPG
Garnet: 18.8 PPG
nice try. The problem isn't that you need to give Garnett a reliable 2nd option, you need to give him a reliable first option so that he can be the 2nd option because that's where he is truly comfortable. We all know he was the best player overall on Boston because of everything he brings to the table, but in terms of strictly being a go-to scorer which is IMO the ultimate measure of all-time greats KG leaves a lot to be desired.

It is much easier to find guys like Tyson Chandler, than it is to find guys like Paul Pierce/Kobe. One is a role player, while Pierce is a superstar.

KG shits on Dirk defensively, but offensively and in terms of being a scorer your team can rely upon to carry the load? Dirk is way ahead of him. It depends upon what you value, but for all-time greats i value go-to scoring as do most people. Bruce Bowen is one of the defensive GOATS, but your going to find Steve Nash's name higher on all-time rankings than Bowen.

[Pointguard]

You do realize that Dirk is 7th all time in playoff ppg. On the best TS% of the top 7. Hardly 2nd tier.

Great scorers lead the league or do something that very good scorers can't. I think that's fair. How many guys would you call a great rebounder, or great shot blocker who was never top three in the category or reach the threshold where only the greats are. Dirk was never a dominant scorer, or a guy that breaks the defense down either. He was usually on single coverage and not near the basket. He wasn't like Bird who consistently taxed the defense 24 feet and down. He definitely isn't like Durant or Mello either as these guys are more versatile and preoccupy the defense more, imo.

[Harison]

Pierce: 19.6 PPG
Garnet: 18.8 PPG
nice try.

Playoffs:
Garnett: 20.4/10.5/3.3
Pierce: 19.7/5.0/4.6



The problem isn't that you need to give Garnett a reliable 2nd option, you need to give him a reliable first option so that he can be the 2nd option because that's where he is truly comfortable.

Based on what? He was scoring 24-27PPG in the Playoffs in his prime, if thats not a 1st option scoring, then what is?



We all know he was the best player overall on Boston because of everything he brings to the table, but in terms of strictly being a go-to scorer which is IMO the ultimate measure of all-time greats KG leaves a lot to be desired.

You do know KG won championship as 1st option scorer as well, right? Not only that, KG was the go-to and BY FAR the leading scorer in the Q4 in '08 Playoffs. Thats with Pierce and Ray on the team - both among the clutchiest players in NBA, and yet KG lead the pack. Garnetts clutch data is carbon copy of Duncan's, but he is another non-clutch guy and cant be go-to scorer, right? :facepalm

Even in current Playoffs, 36 old KG on the bad knees literally had to go to his prime numbers to carry the team, leads in 4Q again, but "he cant be go-to scorer".... :confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

KG shits on Dirk defensively, but offensively and in terms of being a scorer your team can rely upon to carry the load? Dirk is way ahead of him. It depends upon what you value, but for all-time greats i value go-to scoring as do most people. Bruce Bowen is one of the defensive GOATS, but your going to find Steve Nash's name higher on all-time rankings than Bowen.
With bigmen, the premium has always been the whole package. Bill Russell wasn't a go to scorer and he better be ranked higher than Dirk. And all of the bigmen in the top ten were good defensively. The only guys in GOAT list (at least top 15 GOAT) who weren't good defensively were super versatile and multidimensional which Dirk isn't. All were league leaders or had some crazy combination of effectiveness that distinguished them (Bird, Magic, Oscar, West).

[Stern]

I want to know why was Pierce given Finals mvp over KG in 2008?

And imagine if Twolves didnt trade Allen following the draft. They win atleast one title.

[Harison]

I want to know why was Pierce given Finals mvp over KG in 2008?


Several reasons:

* voters like streaky scorers.

* voters like drama (injury (?) and dramatic return after).

* voters dont care about the defense, same as a lot of fans.

[rodman91]

I want to know why was Pierce given Finals mvp over KG in 2008?

And imagine if Twolves didnt trade Allen following the draft. They win atleast one title.

He wouldn't have bad team excuse though. :lol

[DMAVS41]

Great scorers lead the league or do something that very good scorers can't. I think that's fair. How many guys would you call a great rebounder, or great shot blocker who was never top three in the category or reach the threshold where only the greats are. Dirk was never a dominant scorer, or a guy that breaks the defense down either. He was usually on single coverage and not near the basket. He wasn't like Bird who consistently taxed the defense 24 feet and down. He definitely isn't like Durant or Mello either as these guys are more versatile and preoccupy the defense more, imo.

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to act like Dirk isn't on par with Carmelo or Durant in these cases.

What ****ing games are you watching. Dirk creates so many more problems without the ball than those guys do its not even funny.

I also love how we are supposed to ignore the last 12 years and pretend like they didn't happen. Dirk didn't win a title as the best player on a team that was 20 to 1 underdogs. He wasn't the only player to beat the Spurs from 05 through 07. He didn't lead his team, a band of cast offs and non elite players. to 11 straight 50 wins.

How did he do all that if he's not on par with the likes of the guys you mention.

Again. He is 7th all time in playoff scoring on the best overall efficiency of the top 7. If that is 2nd tier as a scorer than the 1st tier must be a pretty short list.

[Round Mound]

Barkley was the Best PF Ever.

None Where Better Scorers, Rebounders and Passers.

[veilside23]

Barkley was the Best PF Ever.

None Where Better Scorers, Rebounders and Passers.


lol by 2 years yes but thats it.. barkley doesnt play defense... admit it dude :)

[Pointguard]

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to act like Dirk isn't on par with Carmelo or Durant in these cases.
When do you ever hear that Dirk is best scorer in the league - ever? He's not that versatile. If you heard that every year Wade, Durant, Mello and Lebron scored more points than Dirk it wouldn't surprise you. They were usually more prolific. Sure Dirk could sneak in there but he wasn't like the rest in volume or ppg. Even in the playoffs all the guys I mentioned hit the 30ppg plateau for a playoff run.

Mello and Durant are much more versatile. They can put the ball down and get to any spot on the floor. Dirk is an awesome fade away jump shooter. In terms of creativity and ability to operate all over the court they are just better.



What ****ing games are you watching. Dirk creates so many more problems without the ball than those guys do its not even funny. We're talking about scoring?


I also love how we are supposed to ignore the last 12 years and pretend like they didn't happen. Dirk didn't win a title as the best player on a team that was 20 to 1 underdogs. He wasn't the only player to beat the Spurs from 05 through 07. He didn't lead his team, a band of cast offs and non elite players. to 11 straight 50 wins.

We're talking about scoring?


How did he do all that if he's not on par with the likes of the guys you mention.

Again. He is 7th all time in playoff scoring on the best overall efficiency of the top 7. If that is 2nd tier as a scorer than the 1st tier must be a pretty short list.
Like I said. The great ones distinguish themselves in some way during their time. They achieve a threshold that other scorers do not attain. A lot of people don't consider Lebron a scorer ( I definitely do), yet every year he outscores Dirk with only an exception here and there there. Nobody really called Vince Carter the leagues best scorer, but his numbers, in his healthy prime years, are eerily similar to Dirk's.

Dirk's team success is great - can't take that away from him. But that's a different discussion.

[Round Mound]

lol by 2 years yes but thats it.. barkley doesnt play defense... admit it dude :)

By 10 Years He was the Best PF...1985/86-1994-95

He Did Play Defense When He Had a Solid Center for 1 Year in Moses as 2nd Year Rookie...Finished Top 7 In Defensive Rating.

He Wasn`t a Beast Defending but a Solid Defensive Player.

He Was The Best Offensive PF Ever
The Best Rebounding Great Scorer of His Time
Lead the League in Rebounding
Lead the League in Offensive Rebounding
Lead the League in FG%, TS% and eFG%
Lead the League in Two-Point FG% With High Scoring Inside the Paint Almost All His Career
Lead the League in ORT
Was the Best Passing PF...Especially Off Double Teams
Revieved More Double Teams Than Any Other Player Not Named Shaq
Forced Rule Changes and Was Called "The Zone Buster"

Barkley was the Best PF for 10-11 Years

[Bigsmoke]

Duncan
Malone
KG
Dirk
Barkley

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Duncan was a better post player and scorer, a better shot blocker and post defender. Duncan's raw defensive presence makes him a protypical PF/C to build around. KG is the better shooter, passer and his perimeter defense is better, not to mention a better all around player. Rebounding pretty even. but overall, Duncan is the better offensive player, I'd also take Duncan's overall defensive impact over KG's.

I definitely wouldn't feel any less confident if I had KG instead of Duncan on my team; both are top 5 PFs of All-Time. But KG is probably a more suitable PF to have if you have a low-post center. But in terms of impact on a team, they are both extremely close, it could go either way really. In fact, if they both had the same amount of titles, I'd say 50/50. Maybe still giving Duncan a slight edge. But since Duncan has more chips, he's going to be better all time than Kevin. Yeah, Duncan was drafted by a great organization, and had Pop. But circumstances are different, that's just the way things are. Maybe if they were switched, we'd witness something different, but who knows. It would be all Hypothetical.

I'd take KG over Barkley n Malone. Even Dirk. I mean KG did have a bigger impact. KG would be Duncan's level if they were swapped. So it's not that farfetched to think that KG's the #2 PF.

[DMAVS41]

When do you ever hear that Dirk is best scorer in the league - ever? He's not that versatile. If you heard that every year Wade, Durant, Mello and Lebron scored more points than Dirk it wouldn't surprise you. They were usually more prolific. Sure Dirk could sneak in there but he wasn't like the rest in volume or ppg. Even in the playoffs all the guys I mentioned hit the 30ppg plateau for a playoff run.

Mello and Durant are much more versatile. They can put the ball down and get to any spot on the floor. Dirk is an awesome fade away jump shooter. In terms of creativity and ability to operate all over the court they are just better.

We're talking about scoring?


We're talking about scoring?

Like I said. The great ones distinguish themselves in some way during their time. They achieve a threshold that other scorers do not attain. A lot of people don't consider Lebron a scorer ( I definitely do), yet every year he outscores Dirk with only an exception here and there there. Nobody really called Vince Carter the leagues best scorer, but his numbers, in his healthy prime years, are eerily similar to Dirk's.

Dirk's team success is great - can't take that away from him. But that's a different discussion.


You are just going off popular opinion. And you are ignoring the playoffs...which makes no sense.

You really think Carmelo is a better scorer than Dirk? How? Why?

Career playoff averages:

Carmelo 25 points 52% TS
Dirk 26 points 58% TS

We are talking about scoring....right? ROFL....these hugely flawed perceptions never cease to amaze me.

I'll say it again. 7th all time in playoff ppg and the best overall efficiency out of the top 7. Bu bu bu but...he's not a great scorer.

Basically you are rewarding players for just shooting more and being more selfish. Doesn't work that way. And lets say for a second that you are right and that Melo is a better scorer than Dirk. And then you claim Dirk is solely a scorer and one dimensional. Does that mean you think Carmelo is a better player than Dirk? Please answer.

Nobody with a brain (I assume you have one) would claim that Melo is a better player than Dirk. So how could that be if Dirk is only a scorer and that Melo is a better scorer according to you? The answer? It isn't possible. You are either under-rating Dirk as a scorer or as an overall player.

[bizil]

Of all of the GOAT's you mentioned I find it very telling that the only two players you can say are 100% the best players at their positions ever are the guards. LeBron is better than Bird is clearly an argument that one can make (and I would), Malone is better than Duncan, or Barkley/Garnett is better than Duncan, and lastly there is no true GOAT C as you say. There are literally 5 C's that you could say was the best of all time depending on how you rank them. Shaq was the most dominant, Wilt was the statistical monster, KAJ has the records, Russell has the rings, and Hakeem has the all around game.

It really is quite the accomplishment for MJ and MJ to be unanimously the best players to ever play their respective positions. Or maybe it is a testament to how underwhelming their competition was/is.

Great post! It is quite the accomplishment for the two MJ's to be CLEARLY the GOAT at their positions. And on a side note if u played those two together, it would work SEAMLESSLY. Because MJ can guard the smaller PG's as great as a 6'6 guy possibly can. Magic paired with other SG's might be a problem because many SG's can't guard smaller PG's effectively.

I think Magic and MJ are so far ahead of the pack because they most likely redefined their positions the most. U had a 6'9 225 pound PG the size of many PF's of the day. And had the handle and passing ability of the best PG's. And could score the rock on par with the premier alpha dogs in the when he chose or needed to. In MJ, u got a guy with the size and athletic ability of Dr.J. But has the versatility to play or defend PG, SG, or SF great. And dominated the SG position stat and skill wise like Jerry West used to. And had as complete a scoring skillset as you could ask for. It had never been seen before.

MJ and MJ were so far ahead of the pack and brought things NEVER seen before due to a combo of size and skill or Magic. And for MJ due to great size for a SG, freakish athletic ability, and a flawless skillset.

[Anaximandro1]

KG is disqualified, since he never was a dominant offensive player.In fact, KG is the third best PF of this era behind Duncan and Dirk.

I mean,this is unacceptable for an elite big man.


Playoffs - Garnett

1997 FG 47.1% -- FTA 1.0

1998 FG 48.0% -- FTA 1.8

1999 FG 44.3% -- FTA 5.8

2000 FG 38.5% -- FTA 4.0

2001 FG 46.6% -- FTA 9.0

2002 FG 42.9% -- FTA 10.7

2003 FG 51.4% -- FTA 4.7

2004 FG 45.2% -- FTA 6.9

And people still wonder why KG was a second round virgin. :facepalm



I definitely wouldn't feel any less confident if I had KG instead of Duncan on my team
that's because you're clueless.Duncan put so much pressure on opposing defenses...there's no point of comparison


Playoffs - Duncan

1998 FG 52.1% -- FTA 6.7

1999 FG 51.1% -- FTA 8.4

2001 FG 48.8% -- FTA 9.1

2002 FG 45.5% -- FTA 11.2

2003 FG 52.9% -- FTA 9.7

2004 FG 52.2% -- FTA 8.7

2005 FG 46.4% -- FTA 8.9

2006 FG 57.3% -- FTA 10.1

2007 FG 52.1% -- FTA 7.5


LeBron is better than Bird is clearly an argument that one can make (and I would), :oldlol:


Malone is better than Duncan, or Barkley/Garnett is better than DuncanNo PF could replicate Duncan's complete dominance on both ends.Duncan is the whole package;the most complete to have ever played the position.There's no much to discuss.


Duncan against West's elite throughout his playoff career

Duncan vs Shaq - Games 30 (15 -15)

Duncan 25.6 pt (48.5%) ,13.0 rb,3.8 as,2.4 blk

Shaq 22.4 pt (52.6%) ,12.8 rb,2.2 as,2.8 blk


Duncan vs Dirk- Games 26 (14 - 12 )

Duncan 26.0 pt (53.9%),12.3 rb, 3.6 as, 1.9 blk

Dirk 24.5 pt (49.8%) , 10.1 rb,2.3 as, 0.6 blk


Duncan vs Amare - Games 25 (15 -10)

Duncan 23.8 pt (53.4%),13.8 rb,3.0 as,2.9 blk

Amare 24.0 pt (51.1%), 9.2 rb, 0.9 as, 1.8 blk





You really think Carmelo is a better scorer than Dirk? How? Why?

Career playoff averages:

Carmelo 25 points 52% TS
Dirk 26 points 58% TS

We are talking about scoring....right? ROFL....these hugely flawed perceptions never cease to amaze me.
Dirk is clearly better than Melo

[Pointguard]

You are just going off popular opinion. And you are ignoring the playoffs...which makes no sense.

No the right way to do it is over all the games they play. If they play 92 games a year - who is the better scorer over the 92 games. Regular season counts. Nearly every record you hear of is a regular season record. Most playoff records are not immediately known by attentive fans. So if we go over 92 games in most years.


You really think Carmelo is a better scorer than Dirk? How? Why?

Career playoff averages:

Carmelo 25 points 52% TS
Dirk 26 points 58% TS

You have to go by everything. You can't pick out what you like and don't like. Scorer's score - who does the most scoring - period. If they play 95 games - its about the scoring value over those 92 games. Its like this in every team sport in the country.

Why is Carmello a better scorer. Primarily because he's better in the post, can shoot off the dribble better, has more moves, doesn't need help and can score all over the court.


We are talking about scoring....right? ROFL....these hugely flawed perceptions never cease to amaze me.

What perceptions are you using??? If you say playoffs only, then Robert Horry is the best tight clutch shooter ever. You can't exclude things because it suites your guy. Who has the most points in there career? What two players have over 30ppg averages in their career. Most claims to fame in every major sport are regular season stats. Where have you been. Do you not know these things?



Basically you are rewarding players for just shooting more and being more selfish. Doesn't work that way. And lets say for a second that you are right and that Melo is a better scorer than Dirk. And then you claim Dirk is solely a scorer and one dimensional. Does that mean you think Carmelo is a better player than Dirk? Please answer.

Nobody with a brain (I assume you have one) would claim that Melo is a better player than Dirk.
SCORER!!!
I never deviate. SCORER!!!


So how could that be if Dirk is only a scorer and that Melo is a better scorer according to you? The answer? It isn't possible. You are either under-rating Dirk as a scorer or as an overall player.
I never said Dirk wasn't an great player. In fact I said he was great three times above. He's very good at what he does. When Reggie Miller was in his prime and his team was winning 50+ plus game for like 7 years and going to the conference finals for four years, and the finals one year, nobody was claiming him to be a great scorer, a player on the level of Dominique at all. But most considered him a better player despite Miller being one dimensional - Miller was primarily a shooter. Why was Miller considered a sure fire first vote HOFer? - his team success, Miller had a team built around him and constructed around him very well. Dominique had more talent on some of his teams but the team construction wasn't that good. I see that parallel with Dirk and Mello.

[necya]

2nd ? :roll:

this site is amazing :facepalm

[Pointguard]

KG is disqualified, since he never was a dominant offensive player.In fact, KG is the third best PF of this era behind Duncan and Dirk.

Was Duncan??? How about Bill Russell? What player in the GOAT top ten wasn't a very good defensive player or a super versatile player??? KG was the most versatile ever. If Duncan is your number one PF clearly you can't be going for offensive dominance because clearly Dirk, Malone and Barkley were more dominant offensively and it isn't even close. If you change up and say its because of the all around game - then KG would have to be ranked right behind him. KG had a better all around game and usually scored just like Duncan in the end.


And people still wonder why KG was a second round virgin. :facepalm

KG lead his team in rebound, assist, blocks, points, offensive rebounds, free throws, free throws attempted, was a close second in steals, played every position on the court, defended three positions, was the teams best defender and took that team to the WCF at 27 years of age. Nobody else ever did that and I doubt anybody else could.

[wang4three]

there have been like 50 threads about Garnett vs Nowitzki, Dirk is not in KG's league. Not even close.

Not even close? Really? Come on now. It's close.