was any of the MJ-Pippen team better than this Miami Heat?

[nashwade]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?

[Quickening]

Jordan should have one next to his name for not doing anything in playoffs until he got a stacked team.

[LBJDW305]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?

Jordan's team was way more stacked then this Miami team...

[Nash-tastic]

Pippen was not the second best player in the league

[Hittin_Shots]

Mostly because you're gay.

[dee-rose]

Pippen never won a chip by himself before teaming up with MJ. He was never the 2nd best player in the league either. Rodman > Bosh but Bosh > Grant.

[jbryan1984]

After the superstars, we have
Rodman vs. Bosh
Kukoc vs. Haslem
Harper vs. Chalmers
Kerr vs. Miller
Longley vs. Anthony


Hmmmmm?

:facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Jordan should have one next to his name for not doing anything in playoffs until he got a stacked team.

You mean the years when he put up numbers like
44/6/6
36/7/6
36/7/5
35/7/7
37/7/7

Those are the years when he did nothing?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Jordan's teams were clearly better, but not sure about more talented. But they had a much better half court offense, were a better defensive team, more motivated and mentally tough, and had a vastly superior coach. They got the most out of their talent.

Lebron is the best player in the league, Wade is probably still top 5, and was arguably top 2 last year, and Bosh is a 7-time all-star who was putting up 24/11 as the 1st option, as their 3rd option.

Unlike Miami, none of Jordan's teams were the most talented team in the league. In the first 3peat there was Phoenix, Portland, Detroit, and LA off the top of my head. And in the second 3peat, there was Orlando the first year, as well as Seattle, Houston with the big 3 in '97, some pretty loaded Heat and Knick teams, and the '98 Lakers.

Not sure if all of those teams were more talented, but some definitely were, and I can't think of a year where Chicago had the most talent in their rotation.

And Lebron's title shouldn't get an asterisk, but how many teams have a 2nd option as good as Wade, and only 2 title teams in the 00's or 10's had a 3rd option even arguably as good as Bosh, and those are the '07 Spurs with Manu/Parker(whoever you consider 3rd) and that's debatable, and maybe Ray Allen in '08, though Allen didn't play that well his first year there.

And even if you go back through the 90's, you'll find just one other championship team with a 3rd guy arguably as good as Bosh, and that's Rodman in '96.

[TheMan]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?

If you're gonna put asterisks on stacked teams, you gonna have an endless list, Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's 76ers, Shaq's Lakers, Thomas' Pistons, Russell's Celtics etc...

Teams that win NBA titles are usually stacked, this year's Heat are top heavy and if either Wade, LeBron or Bosh are off, they struggle because the Heat's role players are not very good. I'll be shocked if they win it all because they are still very flawed and it means the Big 3 were all dominant because they won't be getting much from the other guys other than hustle and defense.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If you're gonna put asterisks on stacked teams, you gonna have an endless list, Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's 76ers, Shaq's Lakers, Thomas' Pistons, Russell's Celtics etc

Shaq's 3peat Lakers weren't stacked. He had a phenomenal second option(probably the best ever in '01 and '02), but those teams never had a 3rd guy near all-star level, and on only one of those 3peat teams did they have a 3rd guy who was a capable scoring threat, and that was a declining Glen Rice who was inconsistent and didn't fit in the offense. Those teams had clear holes such as bench scoring, 3 point shooting, and sometimes multiple players on the court who weren't scoring/shooting threats.

The one team you could argue was is the '01 team because of how good the duo was, and because Fisher got really hot in the playoffs, Grant helped a lot with post defense, and Fox was the glue guy. Though 2 superstars and role players isn't really the definition of stacked, which usually refers to depth.

[TheMan]

You mean the years when he put up numbers like
44/6/6
36/7/6
36/7/5
35/7/7
37/7/7

Those are the years when he did nothing?

Quickening just got butt fvcked by this post, watch him run and hide:applause:

If those were the stats Bronzy put up during his Cavs years, he would be screaming that LBJ did all he could and he got no help from his garbage teammates:lol

[D-Wade316]

All those championship teams were better than this Heat team.

[markymark]

Jordan's teams were clearly better, but not sure about more talented. But they had a much better half court offense, were a better defensive team, more motivated and mentally tough, and had a vastly superior coach. They got the most out of their talent.

Lebron is the best player in the league, Wade is probably still top 5, and was arguably top 2 last year, and Bosh is a 7-time all-star who was putting up 24/11 as the 1st option, as their 3rd option.

Unlike Miami, none of Jordan's teams were the most talented team in the league. In the first 3peat there was Phoenix, Portland, Detroit, and LA off the top of my head. And in the second 3peat, there was Orlando the first year, as well as Seattle, Houston with the big 3 in '97, some pretty loaded Heat and Knick teams, and the '98 Lakers.

Not sure if all of those teams were more talented, but some definitely were, and I can't think of a year where Chicago had the most talent in their rotation.

And Lebron's title shouldn't get an asterisk, but how many teams have a 2nd option as good as Wade, and only 2 title teams in the 00's or 10's had a 3rd option even arguably as good as Bosh, and those are the '07 Spurs with Manu/Parker(whoever you consider 3rd) and that's debatable, and maybe Ray Allen in '08, though Allen didn't play that well his first year there.

And even if you go back through the 90's, you'll find just one other championship team with a 3rd guy arguably as good as Bosh, and that's Rodman in '96.

Bosh and Rodman don't even belong in the same sentence.

[TheMan]

All those championship teams were better than this Heat team.
No shit, Captain Obvious.

That's why if Miami wins it all this year it'll mean either the Heat's role players stepped up and contributed in 4 of 7 games in every series (doubtful) or LBJ, Wade and Bosh just flat out dominated (could happen but look at last year's Finals for a reference).

If the Heat fall short again it's mostly gonna be on the FO for not fixing their flaws, the Heat don't need All Stars at the PG and C position, they just need to upgrade them to where they don't suck.

[BlueandGold]

Jordan never had a team better than the 2011 Miami Heat :oldlol: . Far as I remember (and i actually saw him play live), Jordan never had the 2nd best player in the league, and another top15 player on top of that as well. Give Jordan Wade + Bosh and he'll have 10 chips.

[Quickening]

Quickening just got butt fvcked by this post, watch him run and hide:applause:

If those were the stats Bronzy put up during his Cavs years, he would be screaming that LBJ did all he could and he got no help from his garbage teammates:lol

I said he never did anything in the playoffs until he got a stacked team, as in he didn't come close to winning any championships.... the GOAT needed a stacked team to win.

[Quickening]

Jordan never had a team better than the 2011 Miami Heat :oldlol: . Far as I remember (and i actually saw him play live), Jordan never had the 2nd best player in the league, and another top15 player on top of that as well. Give Jordan Wade + Bosh and he'll have 10 chips.

Dumb shit..... Jordan had a stacked team which played to all his strengths, and covered his weaknesses... Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are a betterr trio than Jordan, Wade and Bosh.

Dumbass.

Plus Chicago had depth after the big 3... something Miami lack.

[Da_Realist]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?

Win title first.

Worry about asterisk after.

[TheMan]

Jordan never had a team better than the 2011 Miami Heat :oldlol: . Far as I remember (and i actually saw him play live), Jordan never had the 2nd best player in the league, and another top15 player on top of that as well. Give Jordan Wade + Bosh and he'll have 10 chips.
You severly underrate those Bulls teams, they had the GOAT, Pippen (one of the most versatile players ever and a defensive beast, better than LBJ), Rodman, a HOFer and the greatest non center rebounder, Toni Kukoc>>>than anyone of the non Big 3 Heat players, Longley>Anthony, Harper>>>Chalmers, Kerr, Brian Williams etc.

That team had really no major flaws.

[Sarcastic]

I said he never did anything in the playoffs until he got a stacked team, as in he didn't come close to winning any championships.... the GOAT needed a stacked team to win.

The Bulls were not considered "stacked" in 1991. They won because Jordan carried them, and Pippen finally started to play as a decent second option. The only thing that held Jordan back in the beginning of his career was not having a second guy that could make a shot when needed.

And it wasn't like Pippen was some "can't miss" stud coming into the league that everyone knew would put Chicago over the top. Really the main reason he became great was from playing with Jordan.

[TheMan]

I said he never did anything in the playoffs until he got a stacked team, as in he didn't come close to winning any championships.... the GOAT needed a stacked team to win.
ok my bad, I thought you meant he literally did nothing. I agree with you, you need a team to win a ship, that's why I still think Miami will fall short unless LBJ, Wade and Bosh go full on ham mode because they aren't gonna get alot of help.

[Quickening]

The Bulls were not considered "stacked" in 1991. They won because Jordan carried them, and Pippen finally started to play as a decent second option. The only thing that held Jordan back in the beginning of his career was not having a second guy that could make a shot when needed.

And it wasn't like Pippen was some "can't miss" stud coming into the league that everyone knew would put Chicago over the top. Really the main reason he became great was from playing with Jordan.

Chicago must have really sucked when Jordan retired first time round, you know considering he was carrying them... what was their drop off again?:facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Chicago must have really sucked when Jordan retired first time round, you know considering he was carrying them... what was their drop off again?:facepalm

Pippen developed into a great player by 1994. In the 1980s he was petrified of the Pistons.

[Teanett]

pip was on the original dream team...

[Sarcastic]

pip was on the original dream team...

In 1992, he was actually one of the worst players on the team. Aside from Laettner, he only scored more than Stockton, who never looked to score at all.

[Teanett]

In 1992, he was actually one of the worst players on the team. Aside from Laettner, he only scored more than Stockton, who never looked to score at all.

still was regarded as one of the best 11 players of the league.

[Sarcastic]

still was regarded as one of the best 11 players of the league.

The top 11 weren't taken (*ahem* Isiah Thomas). He (Pippen) was one of the best at his position, certainly.

[Sarcastic]

Dominique Wilkins also probably deserved to go, after putting up 28/7/4, but he wasn't on Jordan's team, and everyone knows they did whatever possible to cozzy up to Jordan, including leaving Isiah Thomas off the roster.

There were a lot of politics involved in building the original Dream Team. Don't deny it.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Lebron is better than Pippen, except defensively, but overall better.
MJ is wayy better than DWade.
Rodman is better than Bosh, except scoring, but otherwise blows him out of the water.

Their designated shooters over the years were a bit better than Chalmers/Miller.
Guys like John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges...they were great from long range.

Those Bulls teams would beat this Miami team 7 out of 10 times.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The Bulls were not considered "stacked" in 1991. They won because Jordan carried them, and Pippen finally started to play as a decent second option.

Well, Pippen was more than a decent second option in '91. He improved quite a bit defensively that year, became a better outside shooter, and was growing into the point forward role in the second half and the playoffs. He averaged 22/9/6, 2.5 spg, 1.1 bpg on 50% shooting in the playoffs.

He wasn't as good as he was from '94-'96, or even '92-'97, but already one of the top small forwards.

They weren't stacked though. Grant was a nice player, but still developing. Cartwright filled a role for the team, but he was limited, and Paxson was an excellent spot up shooter, but not much else.

Portland, LA, Detroit, Phoenix and Boston clearly had more talented rosters. Some of those teams had key injuries, though.

But back to Pippen, he was already an all-star in '90. Not as smart defensively, and not as good of a shooter as '91 or later, and he did have an inconsistent second half of the season, but he was also really good during the 1st 2 rounds of the playoffs. Commentators in the Milwaukee series were saying he'd be the man on most teams. I think that was an exaggeration, but he was already more than a decent player.


The only thing that held Jordan back in the beginning of his career was not having a second guy that could make a shot when needed.

Well, it's true that the main thing was his team early, but he wasn't as good of a player in the 80's as he was during the 1st 3peat, and his approach wasn't quite the same(partially due to necessity).

He changed his approach during '90, and was as good as he'd ever become, imo. Chicago almost won that year, but the main difference was the team, and particularly Pippen/Grant were as good as '91, and Detroit was quite a bit better than they were in 1990.


And it wasn't like Pippen was some "can't miss" stud coming into the league that everyone knew would put Chicago over the top. Really the main reason he became great was from playing with Jordan.

I have no doubt that playing with MJ, and particularly against him in practice, and seeing his work ethic helped Pippen. But I don't think you can say the main reason a player is great is because of another player. Pippen deserves the credit for his own talent and unique skill set, as well as putting in the work. Phil obviously also had a positive influence on Pippen, and Jordan for that matter.

He was obviously a talented player, despite not being that hyped coming into the league, he was a top 5 pick.

[Dragonyeuw]

In 1992, he was actually one of the worst players on the team. Aside from Laettner, he only scored more than Stockton, who never looked to score at all.

Interestingly enough, Chuck Daly called him the second-best player on the team.

[Sarcastic]

Interestingly enough, Chuck Daly called him the second-best player on the team.

Not that Daly didn't say that, but I think we all know that is not true.

[Sarcastic]

I have no doubt that playing with MJ, and particularly against him in practice, and seeing his work ethic helped Pippen. But I don't think you can say the main reason a player is great is because of another player. Pippen deserves the credit for his own talent and unique skill set, as well as putting in the work. Phil obviously also had a positive influence on Pippen, and Jordan for that matter.

He was obviously a talented player, despite not being that hyped coming into the league, he was a top 5 pick.

I don't mean that Pippen owes everything to Jordan, but I think he would be looked at TOTALLY differently had he played for the Sonics rather than the Bulls.

[Teanett]

I don't mean that Pippen owes everything to Jordan, but I think he would be looked at TOTALLY differently had he played for the Sonics rather than the Bulls.
why so?
pip-payton-kemp... i'd say bulls dont win 6 in 8 years.

[Xiao Yao You]

In 1992, he was actually one of the worst players on the team. Aside from Laettner, he only scored more than Stockton, who never looked to score at all.

Stockton was hurt. Pippen was getting a lot of his minutes.



Dominique Wilkins also probably deserved to go

no


I think he would be looked at TOTALLY differently had he played for the Sonics rather than the Bulls.

Might not be thought of much at all.

[iamgine]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?
Jordan's team was stacked indeed. But there is no need for asterisks. Lest we want to put asterisks on 80s Boston and LA as well.

[Cali Syndicate]

Jordan should have one next to his name for not doing anything in playoffs until he got a stacked team.

And who were the teams Chicago was losing to?

85 - a 59 win Bucks team
86 - Celtics (NBA champions)
87 - Celtics (EC champs)
88 - Pistons (EC champs)
89 - Pistons (NBA champions)
90 - Pistons (NBA Champions) <----almost took this series

And in the majority of those losing series, Jordan on an individual standpoint was blowing up those teams.

[Cali Syndicate]

Dumb shit..... Jordan had a stacked team which played to all his strengths, and covered his weaknesses... Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are a betterr trio than Jordan, Wade and Bosh.

Dumbass.

Plus Chicago had depth after the big 3... something Miami lack.

What weaknesses? That he needed better teammates than Charles Oakley, Dave Corzine, John Paxson and Brad Sellers?

[swi7ch]

95-96 Bulls quick summary:

* nba title
* 72-10 record in the regular season
* 15-3 record in the playoffs
* all-star mvp, regular season mvp, and finals mvp in jordan
* phil jackson won coach of the year award
* kukoc won the 6th man award
* jordan's 30.4 ppg led the league (was 3rd in steals at 2.2)
* rodman's 14.9 rpg led the league
* jordan and pippen were named to the 1st team all nba team
* jordan, pippen, rodman were named to the 1st team all defensive team
* kerr was second in the league in 3 pt percentage

[LA_Showtime]

If Miami wins this year, a bunch of their "weak" role players will suddenly become championship caliber pieces.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not that Daly didn't say that, but I think we all know that is not true.

Maybe if you educated yourself, you would know that Pippen wasn't just about scoring. Daly's comments on Scottie were about his all-around game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U#t=0m15s

[OldSchoolBBall]

Err, every single one of MJ's championship Bulls teams was better than today's Heat with the exception of perhaps the '98 Bulls.

[97 bulls]

In 1992, he was actually one of the worst players on the team. Aside from Laettner, he only scored more than Stockton, who never looked to score at all.
Actually, chuck daly said he (pippen) was the most valuable player of the original dream team. He was that teams best defender and led that team in assists. What are you talking about?

[jstern]

Why would the Miami team have an asterisks?

[Dragonyeuw]

Not that Daly didn't say that, but I think we all know that is not true.

Well I don't know what prompted him to say it, but Daly doesn't seem like the type to make that sort of comment without reason. Pippen must have shown something for him to make that bold a statement, given it was a team of stars. .......

[97 bulls]

Err, every single one of MJ's championship Bulls teams was better than today's Heat with the exception of perhaps the '98 Bulls.
The 98 bulls were better too. Why so people dismiss this team so much? They won 62 games with pippen missing half the season. Which tied them for the best record in the league. Theres no doubt that with a relatively healthy pipppen, they wouldve won 67 games.They dominated utah until pippens injury. They beat them by 54 points one game. A record that still stands to this day.

[97 bulls]

Why would the Miami team have an asterisks?
Exactly. The heat have had to endure the same rigorous season that every other team has had to face. If they win, its legit.

[Da_Realist]

Lebron is better than Pippen, except defensively, but overall better.
MJ is wayy better than DWade.
Rodman is better than Bosh, except scoring, but otherwise blows him out of the water.

Their designated shooters over the years were a bit better than Chalmers/Miller.
Guys like John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges...they were great from long range.

Those Bulls teams would beat this Miami team 7 out of 10 times.

10 out of 10

[Da_Realist]

Err, every single one of MJ's championship Bulls teams was better than today's Heat with the exception of perhaps the '98 Bulls.

98 Bulls would murder the Heat.

So would the 98 Pacers.

[Alamo]

I pick the team with the guy who doesn't shrink in the finals.

[(e)]

Difference is. Those Bulls teams were built around MJ. And Scottie was an awesome compliment to MJ. Wade and Lebron do very similar things on the court so playing off each other doesn't always turn out so great...unless they are in the open floor, then they're unstoppable

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

10 out of 10
prolly right.
People should never underestimate guys like Rodman because....there are/were no guys like Rodman.

I could put any of MJ, Pippen, or Rodman on Lebron and suddenly Lebron would not be so dominant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

prolly right.
People should never underestimate guys like Rodman because....there are/were no guys like Rodman.

I could put any of MJ, Pippen, or Rodman on Lebron and suddenly Lebron would not be so dominant.

Are we talking about those Bulls teams playing NOW or the Heat playing THEN? Because the refs coddle Lebron, Wade and co; these new-era rules are shitty.

[Teanett]

the heat also dont have anybody oustide bosh, b!tch and whistle who's even remotely as good as kukoc.

[Papaya Petee]

prolly right.
People should never underestimate guys like Rodman because....there are/were no guys like Rodman.

I could put any of MJ, Pippen, or Rodman on Lebron and suddenly Lebron would not be so dominant.
Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.

[Bigsmoke]

I'm not really into contracts and salary and that kind of shit but it seems to me that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh are eating up more of the salary cap than MJ, Pippen, and Grant/Rodman were.

less money left = less talented cast.

[Coffee Black]

A lot of posters need to realize that unlike what you see in the current NBA and media coverage, it is not all about collecting as much talent on the roster as possible. But rather, the importance lies in the ability of the collection to play as a team. (See 2011 NBA finals)

The Miami Heat are a collection of very talented players, they do not play like a team the way the Bulls did.

[TheMan]

Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.
And does a great job of it, see last year's Finals...OTOH, we know for sure nobody on the Heat would stop the GOAT:bowdown:

[Teanett]

Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.

he didnt say "shut down". he said lebron wouldnt be as dominant, which is totally fair to say.
now stop jacking off over your lebron posters.

[TheMan]

Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.

Shawn Marion

[Bigsmoke]

Shawn Marion


LeBron normally rape Marion

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mariosh01&p2=jamesle01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymYm5g1DRk

i really dont know what happened in the Finals tho'

[Da_Realist]

Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.

Lebron is physically gifted, but he's not technically sound. The Bulls would exploit that. I'd love to see how well Lebron would play with Pippen hounding him full court for seven straight games. The Bulls would force Lebron to get rid of the ball and his lack of off-the-ball movement would prevent him from getting it back in any position to dominate the game like he's used to now.

I doubt Miami would win 2 games. They're a perimeter oriented team going against an elite perimeter defensive team. :no: No real post presence to speak of unless you think string bean Chris Bosh would be able to keep Luc Longley's ass off the block and stop him from getting rebounds. Kinda doubt Bosh would even want that fight.

Chicago's offense was far too disciplined for Miami's gambling D. And they had the ultimate closer.

And

Phil Jackson >>>>> Spo. Just sayin'.


A lot of posters need to realize that unlike what you see in the current NBA and media coverage, it is not all about collecting as much talent on the roster as possible. But rather, the importance lies in the ability of the collection to play as a team. (See 2011 NBA finals)

The Miami Heat are a collection of very talented players, they do not play like a team the way the Bulls did.

This.

[andgar923]

Two words:

Pseudo-zone.

I'd love to see what the Heat can do against actual true zone and against actual good team and one on one defenders.

Today's 'zone' isn't truly a 'zone', and when they do utilize this pseudo zone, it's used to cover up the bad team and one on one defenders that team has. But if actual Zone defense is used by great defensive teams and players...

I doubt that any Heat player can reach 20 points with a decent shooting percentage in a series.

[Coffee Black]

Also, there is no way Wade gets the benefit of some of the calls he gets with MJ gaurding him.

[Scholar]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?

Unlike this Heat team, Jordan didn't conspire with anyone to join forces to finally win a title. :confusedshrug: Pippen was drafted; Rodman was traded for; anybody else on the team was brought into the herd the same way.

No conspiring. None of that nonsense. Nobody was told, "Hey, sign with this team so you can play alongside three of the best players in the league."

[Glide2keva]

Oh look! It's another 'let's discredit Jordan with ignorant twisted opinions that we will try to pass off as facts' thread.

[rodman91]

When you compared players to their era's...

Both Lebron & Jordan considered as best player in the league.

Wade is/was considered as top 3 player.

Pippen was considered somewhere in top 10 player in 90's.

Bosh is/was considered top 3-5 Power forward in the league.

Rodman was considered somewhere in top 10 PF in the league.

Jordan,Pippen & Rodman trio would murder this Heat team but Lebron has more stacked team compared to his era.How many great big men left? How many great players (in prime) left compared to 90's?

[Blue&Orange]

Pippen was drafted by the Sonics and traded or Olden Polynice!
Rodman was a 30+ old nuisance that ended up on the Bulls because no other team wanted any of his antics, he was considered a gamble by the Bulls!

Are people really comparing this, with Leborn teamming up with is pals and in the process, quitting on his team when they were about to eliminate the Celtics.

:biggums:


Dude quited on his team, forfeit the chance of going to the finals\winning, so that he could team up with his pals so that it would be easy, "we can play Pat Riley as Point guard", so that he could won 7, 8 championships...

Are we really comparing this with a rookie traded for Olden Polynice and a gamble like Rodman??


Asterisk for sure.

[Glide2keva]

Pippen was drafted by the Sonics and traded or Olden Polynice!
Rodman was a 30+ old nuisance that ended up on the Bulls because no other team wanted any of his antics, he was considered a gamble by the Bulls!

Are people really comparing this, with Lebron teaming up with is pals and in the process, quitting on his team when they were about to eliminate the Celtics.

:biggums:


Dude quit on his team, forfeit the chance of going to the finals\winning, so that he could team up with his pals so that it would be easy, "we can play Pat Riley as Point guard", so that he could won 7, 8 championships...

Are we really comparing this with a rookie traded for Olden Polynice and a gamble like Rodman??


Asterisk for sure.:applause:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Child ****ing please. You put ANY defender of all time on LeBron and Wade while they are motivated and fully healthy and they will put up 25-30 PPG each time. Same with Kobe, Carmelo, or Durant. Stop acting like Jordan or Pippen or Rodman never got lit up before.

Nobody on that Bulls team would shut down LeBron, LeBron usually only shuts himself down.

Of course Lebron and Wade COULD still drop 25-30 against those Bulls. However, they would be shooting closer to 40% than 50%.

[CavaliersFTW]

Last seasons and current Miami Heat would get raped by all 6 of Jordan's title teams. They need to patch up some holes.

[pegasus]

All of them were, but because Jordan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron.

If you wanna just talk about their supporting casts, then yeah Lebron's >>>>> Jordan's.

[rodman91]

Pippen was drafted by the Sonics and traded or Olden Polynice!
Rodman was a 30+ old nuisance that ended up on the Bulls because no other team wanted any of his antics, he was considered a gamble by the Bulls!

Are people really comparing this, with Leborn teamming up with is pals and in the process, quitting on his team when they were about to eliminate the Celtics.

:biggums:


Dude quited on his team, forfeit the chance of going to the finals\winning, so that he could team up with his pals so that it would be easy, "we can play Pat Riley as Point guard", so that he could won 7, 8 championships...

Are we really comparing this with a rookie traded for Olden Polynice and a gamble like Rodman??


Asterisk for sure.

Pippen for Polynice
Rodman for Perdue

:bowdown:

[schism206]

I was a little too young to really remember the first 3 peat, but the 2nd 3 peat squad was better than Miami because of their intelligent play, team chemistry, and mental toughness. (and of course... coaching)

Pippen was a great player, but would he have been as great if he wasn't with Jordan? I'd say no. Rodman was awesome. And MJ is MJ...

MJ > Wade
LeBron > Pippen (in talent, I think Pippen had more mental toughness)
Rodman > Bosh (Bosh obviously better offensively though)

Beyond that, I'd say the other players and benches are comparable. The difference is the Bulls maximized the sh*t outta their role players, that's why they were so great. I think Lebron gets a lot outta of his teammates in terms of setting up assists and whatnot, but I feel like Jordan did that, and also made them prepared mentally and they all had a high energy level and elite understanding of the task at hand. Those Chicago teams in the 2nd 3 peat were just vicious and could beat you in so many ways.

I know this vid has been posted on here before, but goddamn, they were good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFqSY4pR78

[Teanett]

I was a little too young to really remember the first 3 peat, but the 2nd 3 peat squad was better than Miami because of their intelligent play, team chemistry, and mental toughness. (and of course... coaching)

Pippen was a great player, but would he have been as great if he wasn't with Jordan? I'd say no. Rodman was awesome. And MJ is MJ...

MJ > Wade
LeBron > Pippen (in talent, I think Pippen had more mental toughness)
Rodman > Bosh (Bosh obviously better offensively though)

Beyond that, I'd say the other players and benches are comparable. The difference is the Bulls maximized the sh*t outta their role players, that's why they were so great. I think Lebron gets a lot outta of his teammates in terms of setting up assists and whatnot, but I feel like Jordan did that, and also made them prepared mentally and they all had a high energy level and elite understanding of the task at hand. Those Chicago teams in the 2nd 3 peat were just vicious and could beat you in so many ways.

I know this vid has been posted on here before, but goddamn, they were good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFqSY4pR78
:no:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2986/612489-toni_kukoc_large.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/8800000/Steve-Kerr-s-winning-shot-chicago-bulls-8856241-485-777.jpg

[schism206]

:no:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2986/612489-toni_kukoc_large.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/8800000/Steve-Kerr-s-winning-shot-chicago-bulls-8856241-485-777.jpg
True...:banana:

[rodman91]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2986/612489-toni_kukoc_large.jpg


Rich man's Hedo & Peja hybrid. :rockon:

[Micku]

The current Heat team may be better than the 91 Bulls team. But I don't think they are better than the other Bulls championship teams.

The Heat are more talented than any of the Bulls team tho. The Bulls weren't the most talented teams in their era. Portland, Suns, Lakers in the late 90s, Magic with the Shaq/Penny/Grant, Rockets in the mid-late 90s, and the Jazz were more talented than the Bulls. But the Bulls were better coached and they knew their roles.

It would interesting to see how much trouble would the 90s Jazz and Shaq's Magic would give the Heat team. And the early 90s Knicks. The Knicks and Magic would destroy the Heat's front line. And the Magic is talented all around. I wonder how much would K.Malone destroy C.Bosh/Anthony/Haslem.

Back to the main point, it's hard to tell. All of the Bulls championship team probably is better because their defense and team play. We should wait until the playoffs is over though with the Heat team to see what they could do.

[Da_Realist]

The current Heat team may be better than the 91 Bulls team.

:facepalm

[Quickening]

All of them were, but because Jordan =Lebron.

If you wanna just talk about their supporting casts, then yeah Lebron's <<<<<<< Jordan's.

Fixed.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Fixed.

Nonsense. AT THE VERY LEAST, MJ's supporting cast for the first three-peat was not nearly as talented as Lebron's. Not even close.

[Da_Realist]

The current Heat team may be better than the 91 Bulls team.

This is a worst matchup than the 98 Bulls.

The 91 Bulls have:

The best, hardest to defend and most clutch player (maybe EVER) playing in his prime.

The 2 best perimeter defenders in the league

The wisdom, composure and patience earned from finally beating a proud, veterant championship team after losing for 3 straight years

The best coaching staff

An offense that required DISCIPLINED defense and quality interior presence to slow down (neither of which describes Miami)

A defense that would feast on a team that relies on two dribble happy perimeter players to score points.

91 Bulls in 5. And if they get hot like they did in the 91 Playoffs, it might be a sweep.

[Teanett]

The current Heat team may be better than the 91 Bulls team. But I don't think they are better than the other Bulls championship teams.


91 bulls had 91 jordan who was at the time a significantly better player than 3-time mvp magic.

[97 bulls]

When you compared players to their era's...

Both Lebron & Jordan considered as best player in the league.

Wade is/was considered as top 3 player.

Pippen was considered somewhere in top 10 player in 90's.

Bosh is/was considered top 3-5 Power forward in the league.

Rodman was considered somewhere in top 10 PF in the league.

Jordan,Pippen & Rodman trio would murder this Heat team but Lebron has more stacked team compared to his era.How many great big men left? How many great players (in prime) left compared to 90's?
I see where your going with this. But consider the fact that tthe top players of the 90s were much better than the top players now. Olajuwan? Shaq? Robinson? Jordan? Barkley?Malone? Is wade still a top 3 player if he played in the 90s? No. How many great power forwards is bosh battling with? Rodman had barkley, malone, webber, to name a few.

[97 bulls]

Two words:

Pseudo-zone.

I'd love to see what the Heat can do against actual true zone and against actual good team and one on one defenders.

Today's 'zone' isn't truly a 'zone', and when they do utilize this pseudo zone, it's used to cover up the bad team and one on one defenders that team has. But if actual Zone defense is used by great defensive teams and players...

I doubt that any Heat player can reach 20 points with a decent shooting percentage in a series.
Great post. Pippen and Jordan are the two greatest help defenders ever. And they had to play under the illegal defense era. Just think what theyd do if they didnt have to worry about having illeggal defense called on them. Jordan would take one side, pippen the other.

[1987_Lakers]

I see where your going with this. But consider the fact that tthe top players of the 90s were much better than the top players now. Olajuwan? Shaq? Robinson? Jordan? Barkley?Malone? Is wade still a top 3 player if he played in the 90s? No. How many great power forwards is bosh battling with? Rodman had barkley, malone, webber, to name a few.

If we are talking about the early 90's then I agree, but today's superstars might be better than the mid-late 90's superstars.

Today you have LeBron, Howard, Paul, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, Rose. Compare that to 1997, MJ, Shaq, K. Malone, a young Grant Hill, an aging Hakeem, & Payton. I'm taking today's superstars.

[97 bulls]

All of them were, but because Jordan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron.

If you wanna just talk about their supporting casts, then yeah Lebron's >>>>> Jordan's.
Really? You think the heat are good enough to win almost 60 games without lebron james? And wade missing 10 games

Pippen had only two years leading the bulls. In those two years, he was third in the mvp voting. And he lost out to two alltime centers who had arguably the best years of their careers. And he shouldve won the dpoy award in 95.

Bosh isnt on Rodmans level

Battier and Harper are essentially the same player

Kukoc is head and shoulders better than mike miller

Longley is better than joel anthony

The heat have no big comparable to brian williams. Haslem is not on williams level. Then what about jason caffey and bil wennington? Turiaf and dexter pittman?

Kerr and chalmers are about even. Chalmers is the better defender but kerr is the better shooter.

Id take randy brown over norris cole.

Jus buchler and james jones are a wash.

Remove james and jordan and the bulls still destroy the heat. The bulls were a 55-60top win team without jordan. And a 70 plus win team wiith jordan.

[Round Mound]

All of Them

[97 bulls]

If we are talking about the early 90's then I agree, but today's superstars might be better than the mid-late 90's superstars.

Today you have LeBron, Howard, Paul, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, Rose. Compare that to 1997, MJ, Shaq, K. Malone, a young Grant Hill, an aging Hakeem, & Payton. I'm taking today's superstars.
Kobe, Dirk and Wade arent aging? Rose had an injury plagued year. Even an aging olajuwan as you put it was putting up 20/10 on over 50%. How many centers are doing that today?

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe, Dirk and Wade arent aging? Rose had an injury plagued year. Even an aging olajuwan as you put it was putting up 20/10 on over 50%. How many centers are doing that today?

I still listed Olajuwon as a superstar, I don't see your point.

[97 bulls]

I still listed Olajuwon as a superstar, I don't see your point.
My point is that regardless of age he still produced at an extremely high level.

[NumberSix]

if so, why do they not put an 'asterisk' beside all of MJ's rings?

i mean on top of the duo they had f**king rodman plus key role players. how stacked was that?
Relative to the competition, you can say the 2nd 3-peat team was stacked.

You can't really compare a stacked team from now to a stacked team from then piece for piece. There are like 6 or 7 teams in the league right now that have a big 3, Boston with arguably a big 4.

In the 90's you would see teams with a franchise player and maybe 1 more really good star level player. In that kind of league, the 95-98 Bulls were stacked.

The Heat might look to be more stacked, but relative to the current league, it's about equal "adjusted for inflation".

Right now you have teams like LAL, OKC, Boston, SAS, Miami, NYK, LAC, etc.... It's pretty standard to have multiple all-star calibre players on the same team these days.

[1987_Lakers]

My point is that regardless of age he still produced at an extremely high level.

Again, I still listed him as a superstar.:facepalm

[97 bulls]

Relative to the competition, you can say the 2nd 3-peat team was stacked.

You can't really compare a stacked team from now to a stacked team from then piece for piece. There are like 6 or 7 teams in the league right now that have a big 3, Boston with arguably a big 4.

In the 90's you would see teams with a franchise player and maybe 1 more really good star level player. In that kind of league, the 95-98 Bulls were stacked.

The Heat might look to be more stacked, but relative to the current league, it's about equal "adjusted for inflation".

Right now you have teams like LAL, OKC, Boston, SAS, Miami, NYK, LAC, etc.... It's pretty standard to have multiple all-star calibre players on the same team these days.
Orlando had Shaq, Hardaway, and Grant
Seattle had Payton, Kemp, and Shrempf
Houston had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Drexler
Miami had Mourning, Hardaway, and Mashburn
Washington had Webber, Howard, and Strickland
New York had Ewing, Spreewell, and Houston
Utah had Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek
Milwaukee had Allen, Robinson, and Baker
Atlanta had Smith, Mutombo, and Laetner

There were plenty of big threes. And unlike now, alot of those teams had depth too

[1987_Lakers]

Orlando had Shaq, Hardaway, and Grant
Seattle had Payton, Kemp, and Shrempf
Houston had Olajuwon, Barkley, and Drexler
Miami had Mourning, Hardaway, and Mashburn
Washington had Webber, Howard, and Strickland
New York had Ewing, Spreewell, and Houston
Utah had Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek
Milwaukee had Allen, Robinson, and Baker
Atlanta had Smith, Mutombo, and Laetner

There were plenty of big threes. And unlike now, alot of those teams had depth too

lmfao.

[97 bulls]

Again, I still listed him as a superstar.:facepalm
Yeah but you put him in as an "aging" superstar. As if in name only. Why arent kobe and dirk considered "aging"?

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah but you put him in as an "aging" superstar. As if in name only. Why arent kobe and dirk considered "aging"?

Maybe because it was the last season he was considered a superstar, but I still listed him. And my point remains, today's superstars were better than the superstars of the mid-late 90's.

[97 bulls]

Maybe because it was the last season he was considered a superstar, but I still listed him. And my point remains, today's superstars were better than the superstars of the mid-late 90's.
Lmao Nope.

[1987_Lakers]

Lmao Nope.

LMAO Yep.

[RaininTwos]

Jordan should have one next to his name for not doing anything in playoffs until he got a stacked team.
:biggums:

[97 bulls]

lmfao.
What was wrong with glenn "big dog" robinson and vin baker? Or rod strickland? Hell christian laetner avg a very chris bosh like 18 and 9 in 97. As the hawks third option.

[1987_Lakers]

What was wrong with glenn "big dog" robinson and vin baker? Or rod strickland? Hell christian laetner avg a very chris bosh like 18 and 9 in 97. As the hawks third option.

Hey look, I can do the same.

Lakers: Kobe, Bynum, Gasol
Celtics: KG, Rondo, Pierce
Thunder: Durant, Harden, Westbrook
Chicago: Rose, Deng, Boozer
Memphis: Gasol, Randolph, Gay
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Atlanta: Johnson, Smith, Horford
Knicks: Carmelo, Amare, Lin
Indiana: Hibbert, Granger, West

[97 bulls]

Hey look, I can do the same.

Lakers: Kobe, Bynum, Gasol
Celtics: KG, Rondo, Pierce
Thunder: Durant, Harden, Westbrook
Chicago: Rose, Deng, Boozer
Memphis: Gasol, Randolph, Gay
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Atlanta: Johnson, Smith, Horford
Knicks: Carmelo, Amare, Lin
Indiana: Hibbert, Granger, West
Im not saying the teams now dont have "big threes". The other poster made the claim that teams back then didnt have big threes. Thats not true.

[lilgodfather1]

Hey look, I can do the same.

Lakers: Kobe, Bynum, Gasol
Celtics: KG, Rondo, Pierce
Thunder: Durant, Harden, Westbrook
Chicago: Rose, Deng, Boozer
Memphis: Gasol, Randolph, Gay
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Atlanta: Johnson, Smith, Horford
Knicks: Carmelo, Amare, Lin
Indiana: Hibbert, Granger, West
You forgot

Cavs: Irving, Davis, Harden

[ralph_i_el]

almost every team to win a championship has been stacked that's how the nba works.

[NumberSix]

Im not saying the teams now dont have "big threes". The other poster made the claim that teams back then didnt have big threes. Thats not true.
That's actually not the point I was making. My point was, Miami's formula isn't out of the norm for the current league. Having 2 or 3 all-star calibre players on the same team isn't out of the ordinary. Relative for the era, the 2nd 3peat Bulls weren't any less of a "stacked" team.

[97 bulls]

That's actually not the point I was making. My point was, Miami's formula isn't out of the norm for the current league. Having 2 or 3 all-star calibre players on the same team isn't out of the ordinary. Relative for the era, the 2nd 3peat Bulls weren't any less of a "stacked" team.
Ok i got you. Ralph i el is correct, all championship caliber teams have "big threes" some even "big fours".

[nashwade]

my points, and i have a few, are:
- the argument that Bosh CAN BE first option is not a measure of how good he is. Shannon Brown can be the first Option on the Suns team if Gortat goes down but that don't mean anything. Brown can prob average 26ppg with Suns as a starter. Hell, I'll take Aldridge over Bosh any day
- the rest of the Heat team outside of the big three are scrubs. Just think about it: can Durant+Westbrook or Kobe+Bynum carry Chalmers/Miller/Anthony/Battier/Pittman to a number 2 seed in any conference?

furthermore, I don't believe Wade is the second best player in the league this year or last, considering Bryant, Rose, Durant, Dirk. Wade is very good, but no way #2

[97 bulls]

my points, and i have a few, are:
- the argument that Bosh CAN BE first option is not a measure of how good he is. Shannon Brown can be the first Option on the Suns team if Gortat goes down but that don't mean anything. Brown can prob average 26ppg with Suns as a starter. Hell, I'll take Aldridge over Bosh any day
- the rest of the Heat team outside of the big three are scrubs. Just think about it: can Durant+Westbrook or Kobe+Bynum carry Chalmers/Miller/Anthony/Battier/Pittman to a number 2 seed in any conference?

furthermore, I don't believe Wade is the second best player in the league this year or last, considering Bryant, Rose, Durant, Dirk. Wade is very good, but no way #2
Exactly. Great post

[1987_Lakers]

my points, and i have a few, are:
- the argument that Bosh CAN BE first option is not a measure of how good he is. Shannon Brown can be the first Option on the Suns team if Gortat goes down but that don't mean anything. Brown can prob average 26ppg with Suns as a starter. Hell, I'll take Aldridge over Bosh any day
- the rest of the Heat team outside of the big three are scrubs. Just think about it: can Durant+Westbrook or Kobe+Bynum carry Chalmers/Miller/Anthony/Battier/Pittman to a number 2 seed in any conference?

furthermore, I don't believe Wade is the second best player in the league this year or last, considering Bryant, Rose, Durant, Dirk. Wade is very good, but no way #2
:roll:

[97 bulls]

:roll:
Perhaps 26 ppgs is an exaggeration, but his point still stands. Theres alot of players that could break 20 plus ppg on a bad team or given the opportunity to shoot.

[1987_Lakers]

Perhaps 26 ppgs is an exaggeration, but his point still stands. Theres alot of players that could break 20 plus ppg on a bad team or given the opportunity to shoot.

Yea, but Bosh had 22+ PPG scoring averages for 5 straight seasons with shooting about 50%. Two of those seasons Toronto made the playoffs. He is a flat out scorer, in fact scoring is one of his main strengths considering he can be a one dimensional player at times.

Very few players can put up 20 a game with high efficiency.

[97 bulls]

Yea, but Bosh had 22+ PPG scoring averages for 5 straight seasons with shooting about 50%. Two of those seasons Toronto made the playoffs. He is a flat out scorer, in fact scoring is one of his main strengths considering he can be a one dimensional player at times.

Very few players can put up 20 a game with high efficiency.
Depends on how you look at it. I dont put much stock in bosh leading the raptors to the playoffs cuz the east was so bad. And while bosh is definately a scorer, i never saw him as a top tier PF.