Scott Van Pelt Show "Kobe's Not Clutch"...

[Dro]

If you're listening right now, they have all kinds of stats that say that Kobe is horrible in 10 seconds or less situations in the regular season and playoffs in the past several years...They have pretty solid numbers too....They also said Billups was 3-27 in his last 30 clutch situations....

[RaininTwos]

If you're listening right now, they have all kinds of stats that say that Kobe is horrible in 10 seconds or less situations in the regular season and playoffs in the past several years...They have pretty solid numbers too....They also said Billups was 3-27 in his last 30 clutch situations....
:roll:

[TylerOO]

Finally someone on ESPN has the balls to say it

[Dro]

He just said Melo was the best coming into the season converting on 48% of his clutch opportunities...Thats who they said they would want, followed by Durant and Chris Paul....

[Dro]

I can't remember Kobe's % but it was terrible...They were like its not even like he's close...there's tons of guys who are more successful with the game on the line....

[christian1923]

MElo Dirk KD are the best in the clutch.

[detroitkid816]

i got on here specifically to make this thread. they're unintentionally crushing him right now. well, the numbers are crushing him themselves, but the guys are just examining them. I never thought mainstream sports media would get to this point

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

My question is, where does this myth come from?

[Dro]

Yes, most of the listeners mentioned Dirk also...They're main point is to show that players have unwarranted reputations, based on perception when actual statistics don't back up these reputations....

[detroitkid816]

I can understand arguments that suggest that kobe isn't as bad as the percentages might suggest, but to say he is anything above mediocre is blatantly untrue. I'm glad i don't have to be labeled as some type of homer or stat nerd in pointing that out

[Lebron23]

Very informative thread.

[Calabis]

My question is, where does this myth come from?

It happened from him making a few, then got out of hand, when he hit several in row during the regular season....I'll give him this, Kobe is fearless in the clutch, but this theory of him being "so clutch" is laughable....he hsa thrown more bricks and airballs than anyone I can remember

[IGOTGAME]

why would someone take his opinion on basketball seriously?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It happened from him making a few, then got out of hand, when he hit several in row during the regular season....I'll give him this, Kobe is fearless in the clutch, but this theory of him being "so clutch" is laughable....he hsa thrown more bricks and airballs than anyone I can remember

It's a joke dude. Someone needs to call his ass out in a postgame interview or something..maybe read off some of those percentages. :oldlol:

I'm about results, screw that BS fearless crap. It's not who you are underneath, but what you DO that defines you.

[caliman]

They also said Billups was 3-27 in his last 30 clutch situations....


Most overrated nickname ever.

[MMM]

I don't have the stats but i'm sure that Kobe shoots far worse in clutch situations than not. His brand of hero ball allows him to hit many spectacular game winning shots but he has fallen short more so than succeed. However, in those moments you can appreciate that he isn't scared of failing.

[DuMa]

http://i.imgur.com/UXOJ9.jpg

[Calabis]

It's a joke dude. Someone needs to call his ass out in a postgame interview or something..maybe read off some of those percentages. :oldlol:

I'm about results, screw that BS fearless crap. It's not who you are underneath, but what you DO that defines you.

But, But, But....its his teammates faults

[DonDadda59]

In recent years, Kobe has been TURRIBLE in 'clutch' situations, but in his younger days he was the absolute last person you wanted to see with the ball in his hands in the closing moments of a game. I'll never forget those 2 shots he hit against Portland in the final game of the '04 season (They were HUGE because the Lakers needed to win that game to secure the pacific division title and 2 seed for the playoffs). And to do it in Portland, that was one of the most cold-blooded displays I've ever seen in sports period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso :applause:

That Kobe shows up once in a blue moon nowadays.

[Teanett]

who cares? it's about the makes.:confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Yeah Kobe's taken a nosedive these past two years in clutch play, but he's always been one of the best performers late in games. It's his rep in game winners that gets overblown - he makes the most but also takes and misses the most. His percentages are just slightly above league average on a high volume.

[jlip]

I posted this in another thread. On Sportscenter this morning they showed a graphic stating that since the 2007 season Kobe is 0-7 in the playoffs in game winning/ tying shots in the last 10 seconds. His teammates are actually 4-7 in similar situations, and that's counting Steve Blake's miss last night. I can't find the ESPN link, but if you do a google search and type in "Kobe 0-7" several b-ball forums pop up with the stats.

[ihoopallday]

This whole "clutch gene" phenomenon is a joke.

[Leviathon1121]

Sometime this upcoming January, Kobe will hit a game winner in a game the Lakers should be winning by 30, against a team like the Bobcats, and he will be GOAT clutch player again.

That is about how it works.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe failed so bad last night that I have to agree with him right now

[MMM]

http://i.imgur.com/UXOJ9.jpg

LOL people on the TTC are good for a laugh

[talkingconch]

I dont think the last 2 years change the fact this guy was clutch in his career. Remember that 7 game winner season he had not too long ago?

Its just media frenzy, if the Lakers would have won none of this would be on. Just something to keep everyone occupied til the next game.

[Quickening]

I dont think the last 2 years change the fact this guy was clutch in his career. Remember that 7 game winner season he had not too long ago?

Its just media frenzy, if the Lakers would have won none of this would be on. Just something to keep everyone occupied til the next game.

Did you just grab 2 years out of the air... his been poor- average in the clutch the majority of his career.

[ihoopallday]

I dont think the last 2 years change the fact this guy was clutch in his career. Remember that 7 game winner season he had not too long ago?

Its just media frenzy, if the Lakers would have won none of this would be on. Just something to keep everyone occupied til the next game.

Everyone did the same thing to LeBron. Dude was clutch in Cleveland just two years ago. Then all of a sudden he's the biggest chocker in NBA history. These days it's "what have you done for me lately".

[Coffee Black]

Too bad basketball is not a sport based on statistic, nor is "clutch" a specifically defined parameter. Complete baseless report to a completely baseless accusation.

/thread

[Dro]

I dont think the last 2 years change the fact this guy was clutch in his career. Remember that 7 game winner season he had not too long ago?

Its just media frenzy, if the Lakers would have won none of this would be on. Just something to keep everyone occupied til the next game.
They actually went back to like 2004 or something...

And to the guy who said Van Pelt doesnt know what he's talking about...it wasn't even him who did the research...it was somebody else on his show and his research was pretty damn good....It wasn't even about the makes cause Kobe honestly didn't even have that many makes...

[LakersReign]

Too bad basketball is not a sport based on statistic, nor is "clutch" a specifically defined parameter. Complete baseless report to a completely baseless accusation.

/thread

Yeah, but the stat geeks and irrational haters are gonna eat it up cuz they see it as more "ammo" to use against Kobe. The sad part is, they're so delusional, they think they can do something other than make themselves look stupid. Like an army trying to fight a war, armed with nothing but blanks.:facepalm

[qrich]

He may not be as clutch as all his nutriders are making him out to be, but dude is fearless and that is a key factor. I'd only take Paul and Melo over him, hands down, with <30 left in a one possession game.


why would someone take his opinion on basketball seriously?

It's statistics, not opinion.

[Quickening]

Yes Kobe clutch, just because he is, just because I said so.... even though he misses 75 percent of his clutch shots....

His still clutch, because I say so.

His clutch because his fearless, like a retard would be.... his clutch because his fearless and doesn't care if he has missed 75 percent of clutch shots over his career.

LMAO, how the **** can people have this opinion.:lol

[IGOTGAME]

It's statistics, not opinion.

data is nothing but numbers. If he simply recited the stats then it is fact. But once he says Kobe is Not Clutch that is an interpretation of the stats that I do not believe that he is qualified to make. I have no respect for his basketball knowledge.

[tmacattack33]

My question is, where does this myth come from?

1. The fact that he has 5 rings (whether or not he was clutch in the playoffs on the way there)

2. Casual fans...they hardly watch any games and will just believe whatever they are told and whatever makes sense (and Kobe being clutch makes sense, because he has 5 rings).

3. JVG... and Reggie Miller lately. They are the commentators during the big games that casual fans may actually watch and they like to talk about how Kobe has a lot of "killer instinct" is has ice in his veins.

[Coffee Black]

Is it just me, or is it that most people talking about the statistics and numbers of being clutch showing Kobe is not clutch are the same that say the number of championships do not mean that much when discussing how good a player is? Is not the championship the most important thing, and thus the number of championships the most important number?

[qrich]

data is nothing but numbers. If he simply recited the stats then it is fact. But once he says Kobe is Not Clutch that is an interpretation of the stats that I do not believe that he is qualified to make. I have no respect for his basketball knowledge.

Then, what is your interpretation on the stats? Is Billups clutch despite being 3-30?



Is it just me, or is it that most people talking about the statistics and numbers of being clutch showing Kobe is not clutch are the same that say the number of championships do not mean that much when discussing how good a player is? Is not the championship the most important thing, and thus the number of championships the most important number?

Rick Fox is more clutch than Tracy McGrady :bowdown:

[RaininTwos]

LOL people on the TTC are good for a laugh
I saw a whole bunch of people who looked like they were from avatar the other day..:oldlol:

[chips93]

the thing a lot of kobe fans say, that is true imo is, that kobe isnt scared in the clutch, while lebron is

its that lebron's natural ability can at times overcome this, while kobe doesnt have enough ability anymore to be able to get good shots against elite perimter defense

kobe just missed tough shots last night, and isnt talented enough to consistently get good looks in crunch time

completely different to choking

[LakersReign]

1. The fact that he has 5 rings (whether or not he was clutch in the playoffs on the way there)

2. Casual fans...they hardly watch any games and will just believe whatever they are told and whatever makes sense (and Kobe being clutch makes sense, because he has 5 rings).

3. JVG... and Reggie Miller lately. They are the commentators during the big games that casual fans may actually watch and they like to talk about how Kobe has a lot of "killer instinct" is has ice in his veins.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ^

I'm sorry,, I just read whatever the **** that hot garbage was above and had to get that out of my system.:D

Dude, stop embarrassing yourself cuz that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I just love it when Lebronytes try to project their b.s. on other fans, making themselves look stupid. Lebronytes are the very definition of casual fans, cuz they were clueless to the NBA before Lebron showed up.

And trying to say that Laker/Kobe fans based their opinions off what's said by Jeff and Reggie, makes it CLEAR, you TRULY have no idea of what you're talking about. Stop embarrassing yourself:facepalm

[Quickening]

the thing a lot of kobe fans say, that is true imo is, that kobe isnt scared in the clutch, while lebron is

its that lebron's natural ability can at times overcome this, while kobe doesnt have enough ability anymore to be able to get good shots against elite perimter defense

kobe just missed tough shots last night, and isnt talented enough to consistently get good looks in crunch time

completely different to choking

Kobe been terrible throughout his career.... game winning shots- Kobe 28 percent, Lebron- 41.8 percent.

L2STFU.

[Kurosawa0]

Kobe in the clutch has always been a double edged sword. On one hand, he's maybe the best bad shot maker in the history of the league. On the other hand, you're getting bad shots at the ends of games.

[Maneva]

Through 2010, Kobe was one of the clutchest players I've ever seen. I mean he had a stretch of 3 game winning buzzer beaters in like 10 games a few years back.

This year and last though, he's been terrible in the clutch. In his defense, teams are usually all over him in the final minute, but he's done more bad than good lately down the stretch.

But, having said all that, I hate clutch stats. This will be kind of long, but one example off the top of my head on why these "Less than 60 seconds 5 point game" type of stats don't mean anything: Look at Kobe's game 5 against Denver and LeBron's game 2 against Indiana. Kobe single-handedly brought his team back from a huge deficit in the final minutes, but he missed his last 3 failing to put the game away. Still, if he hadn't started to go crazy from 3 with 3 or 4 minutes left the Lakers would have lost by 20. That was a clutch game, but on the clutch stat sheet it just says Kobe was 0-3. LeBron on the other hand, missed two free throws and completely disappeard offensively. He didn't do anything to help his team, but stats-wise he's not penalized for it, since he didn't miss any field goals. One was clutch, the other wasn't, but the clutch one was 0-3 and other was 0-0. The stats lie.

But yeah, Kobe was pretty awful down the stretch last night. I'm rooting for the Thunder and even I was frustrated with Kobe.

[Rake2204]

Are there links to these clutch statistics? I would be curious to take a gander and judge things for myself.

Generally speaking, I think a lot of this issue has to do with what one defines as "clutch". Is it just being fearless? Is it the ability to make shots? Is it the rate with which one is able to make shots in end-of-game scenarios? A little bit of everything?

Maybe folks are just getting stuck on the vague definition of the word clutch. Would it be easier to sort things out if the measuring stick was simply "Rate at which a player is able to make end-of-game shots"?

[boozehound]

If you're listening right now, they have all kinds of stats that say that Kobe is horrible in 10 seconds or less situations in the regular season and playoffs in the past several years...They have pretty solid numbers too....They also said Billups was 3-27 in his last 30 clutch situations....
probably rusillo. Dude is right and its been shown time and time again. Kobe has a poor clutch record pretty much however you look at the #s. Same with "Mr. Bigshot". Dude had some great clutch moments (half court 3pter to force OT, etc), but most of his clutch situations end up with a missed fg.

[IGOTGAME]

Then, what is your interpretation on the stats? Is Billups clutch despite being 3-30?




is Billups(prime 2004) someone I would want on my team in the clutch...yes. He made winning plays whether or not they come up in the box score. During that time period he made winning plays. What happens in the last 10 seconds of games does not win or lose you games. What I am most worried about at that time is free throw percentage. This fascination with clutch is out of control.

All I worry about is if my #1 can put his team in good position to win championships. Kobe has done that as a #1 and a #2. He has made the plays necessary to win titles. Until Lebron does that then I want no part of comparing him in the clutch to someone who already has on several occasions. There are no excuses anymore.

[BlackVVaves]

ESPN just showed a graph a few moments ago that showed that Kobe and Melo have made the most go ahead field goals since 2003, tied at 15 a piece. Followed by Ray Allen and Dirk.

[TerranOP]

Through 2010, Kobe was one of the clutchest players I've ever seen. I mean he had a stretch of 3 game winning buzzer beaters in like 10 games a few years back.

This year and last though, he's been terrible in the clutch. In his defense, teams are usually all over him in the final minute, but he's done more bad than good lately down the stretch.

But, having said all that, I hate clutch stats. This will be kind of long, but one example off the top of my head on why these "Less than 60 seconds 5 point game" type of stats don't mean anything: Look at Kobe's game 5 against Denver and LeBron's game 2 against Indiana. Kobe single-handedly brought his team back from a huge deficit in the final minutes, but he missed his last 3 failing to put the game away. Still, if he hadn't started to go crazy from 3 with 3 or 4 minutes left the Lakers would have lost by 20. That was a clutch game, but on the clutch stat sheet it just says Kobe was 0-3. LeBron on the other hand, missed two free throws and completely disappeard offensively. He didn't do anything to help his team, but stats-wise he's not penalized for it, since he didn't miss any field goals. One was clutch, the other wasn't, but the clutch one was 0-3 and other was 0-0. The stats lie.

But yeah, Kobe was pretty awful down the stretch last night. I'm rooting for the Thunder and even I was frustrated with Kobe.

I understand what you're saying, and I similarly hate clutch stats because they're so misleading. Kobe did almost single-handedly bring the Lakers back in game 5 against Denver, in the same way that Lebron single-handedly put away Indiana in the 4th quarter of game 1 of the series.

However, your first statement isn't really correct. Kobe was incredibly clutch from 2009-2011, but before that he was terrible, and after that period he also isn't so great. If you look at his so-called "prime" years of 2006-2008, Kobe was incredibly bad in the clutch. But this obviously also doesn't tell the whole story, as Kobe is a top 10 player and no one would ever call him a choker. In the end, I would say that he's probably about average in the clutch, not terribly good or bad. But again, i fully agree with your assessment of how bad it is to base conclusions of "clutch" statistics.

Kobe ****ed up yesterday, but I really think he was simply tired rather than "unclutch". I think this was the case for Lebron too. Both of these guys have been playing tons of minutes and it's taking its toll at the end of games.

[chips93]

Kobe been terrible throughout his career.... game winning shots- Kobe 28 percent, Lebron- 41.8 percent.

L2STFU.

that has little to do with my post

lebron often looks scared to shoot

kobe never does

[Quickening]

that has little to do with my post

lebron often looks scared to shoot

kobe never does

Oh I see, I see.... I based mine on what actually happens, you base it on the players physical appearance.

Got you.

[Maneva]

Are there links to these clutch statistics? I would be curious to take a gander and judge things for myself.

Generally speaking, I think a lot of this issue has to do with what one defines as "clutch". Is it just being fearless? Is it the ability to make shots? Is it the rate with which one is able to make shots in end-of-game scenarios? A little bit of everything?

Maybe folks are just getting stuck on the vague definition of the word clutch. Would it be easier to sort things out if the measuring stick was simply "Rate at which a player is able to make end-of-game shots"?

This is a good point. Personally I view it more as a player's ability to create his own shot in pressure situations and his overall mindset. Kobe for instance is absolutely fearless and can always (with the exception of last night) get a makeable shot off. Even if he misses, if you get him the ball you know he's going to get a look at the rim and he's not going to be scared to take the shot.

There are exceptions though, Derek Fisher can't create his own shot for shit but he's as fearless as they come.

The "clutch stats" usually have a bunch of mediocre players who can't create their own shot at the top of the list. I don't care how many "clutch shots" Mario Chalmers hits, I don't want the ball in his hands at the end of a game. He's only getting those shots in the first place because he's usually left wide-open. Big difference between him hitting a shot in the final seconds as opposed to someone like Wade.

[Quickening]

This is a good point. Personally I view it more as a player's ability to create his own shot in pressure situations and his overall mindset. Kobe for instance is absolutely fearless and can always (with the exception of last night) get a makeable shot off. Even if he misses, if you get him the ball you know he's going to get a look at the rim and he's not going to be scared to take the shot.

There are exceptions though, Derek Fisher can't create his own shot for shit but he's as fearless as they come.

The "clutch stats" usually have a bunch of mediocre players who can't create their own shot at the top of the list. I don't care how many "clutch shots" Mario Chalmers hits, I don't want the ball in his hands at the end of a game. He's only getting those shots in the first place because he's usually left wide-open. Big difference between him hitting a shot in the final seconds as opposed to someone like Wade.

So just to clarify, Kobe has the ability to get himself a good look, isn't afraid whatsoever... its just a co-incidence his shots percent drops by roughly 20 percent in clutch situations.

Got you.

[Maneva]

So just to clarify, Kobe has the ability to get himself a good look, isn't afraid whatsoever... its just a co-incidence his shots percent drops by roughly 20 percent in clutch situations.

Got you.

First of all, you're exaggerating the percentages, plus I've already covered why I think they're BS in a previous post.

Second, are you really going to argue that Kobe isn't afraid late in games and can't create his own shot?

[Quickening]

First of all, you're exaggerating the percentages, plus I've already covered why I think they're BS in a previous post.

Second, are you really going to argue that Kobe isn't afraid late in games and can't create his own shot?

Sorry but he shoots 28 percent on game winners... so his rather shit at shooting, lacks the ability to get a good look or bottles it.

Its one of them.

[Coffee Black]

So just to clarify, Kobe has the ability to get himself a good look, isn't afraid whatsoever... its just a co-incidence his shots percent drops by roughly 20 percent in clutch situations.

Got you.

Well if you put together what the poster you quoted said and the general idea in this thread, you would understand that because Kobe is fearless and somehow always gets a decent shot off (unlike Chris Paul in the overtime game against Memphis, Rondo against Atlanta, etc) compounded with the overwhelming confidence his teammates, coaches, and he have in himself (especially in the 06 and 07 season) place the ball in Kobe's hands no matter what the situation. Naturally, this drives the percentage down.

[Maneva]

Sorry but he shoots 28 percent on game winners...

I get that. It's been beaten to death in this thread. The point of my first post was that these stats are incredibly misleading. It's kind of frustrating that I post why I think clutch stats like this aren't always valid, and instead of addressing any of the points you just repost the same stat.

[Bladers]

Sorry but he shoots 28 percent on game winners... so his rather shit at shooting, lacks the ability to get a good look or bottles it.

Its one of them.

no he doesn't. He shoots 32% better than lebrick.

[Quickening]

no he doesn't. He shoots 32% better than lebrick.

:facepalm Resorts to telling lies.:lol

[chazzy]

Kobe been terrible throughout his career.... game winning shots- Kobe 28 percent, Lebron- 41.8 percent.

L2STFU.
Thats only playoffs. For their careers, Kobe is at 31% and Lebron 30%

[Maneva]

Well if you put together what the poster you quoted said and the general idea in this thread, you would understand that because Kobe is fearless and somehow always gets a decent shot off (unlike Chris Paul in the overtime game against Memphis, Rondo against Atlanta, etc) compounded with the overwhelming confidence his teammates, coaches, and he have in himself (especially in the 06 and 07 season) place the ball in Kobe's hands no matter what the situation. Naturally, this drives the percentage down.

Uh, no. First, I already stated that Kobe's been really unclutch the last 2 years, and last night was one of the biggest chokejobs I've seen that obviously lost his team the game.

My points are just that clutch stats can, and often are, misleading, and that there's more to determining clutchness than how many shots they've made in the final seconds. Christ, people.

[Quickening]

I get that. It's been beaten to death in this thread. The point of my first post was that these stats are incredibly misleading. It's kind of frustrating that I post why I think clutch stats like this aren't always valid, and instead of addressing any of the points you just repost the same stat.

Sorry but what do you want me to say.. you're saying he isn't afraid, and gets off good shots, so why is his missing close to 75 percent of them.

Tell me?

[Quickening]

Thats only playoffs. For their careers, Kobe is at 31% and Lebron 30%


A) post the evidence.
B) 31 percent is still awful

[IGOTGAME]

Sorry but what do you want me to say.. you're saying he isn't afraid, and gets off good shots, so why is his missing close to 75 percent of them.

Tell me?

has hasnt been getting off good shots consistently for a while.

[MMM]

no he doesn't. He shoots 32% better than lebrick.

Why does shooting 32% deserve praise though??? it signals to me that hero ball leads to failure more times then not. Kobe would shoot better if he trusted the offense instead of jacking up low % jump shots.

[Dro]

Are there links to these clutch statistics? I would be curious to take a gander and judge things for myself.

Generally speaking, I think a lot of this issue has to do with what one defines as "clutch". Is it just being fearless? Is it the ability to make shots? Is it the rate with which one is able to make shots in end-of-game scenarios? A little bit of everything?

Maybe folks are just getting stuck on the vague definition of the word clutch. Would it be easier to sort things out if the measuring stick was simply "Rate at which a player is able to make end-of-game shots"?
I was actually watching his show on television and they put the stats up on the screen..thats why I can't remember them all, but they really broke it down...I mean, it really surprised me because I also thought Kobe was clutch...I mean the stats were :eek: But they had people on there putting them in context... but at the same time, they were killing him...

[MMM]

I saw a whole bunch of people who looked like they were from avatar the other day..:oldlol:

damn never realize you were from Toronto. How did you become a Hawks fan??? or were you just reppin them for the playoffs.

[RazorBaLade]

I havent read through this but I know these stats are all cherry picking, u can make lebron seem like a clutch god or like a joke and u can do the same for kobe. only thing u can really do is just watch the games, and they show kobe is pretty dam clutch *overall*

[Rake2204]

This is a good point. Personally I view it more as a player's ability to create his own shot in pressure situations and his overall mindset. Kobe for instance is absolutely fearless and can always (with the exception of last night) get a makeable shot off. Even if he misses, if you get him the ball you know he's going to get a look at the rim and he's not going to be scared to take the shot.

There are exceptions though, Derek Fisher can't create his own shot for shit but he's as fearless as they come.

The "clutch stats" usually have a bunch of mediocre players who can't create their own shot at the top of the list. I don't care how many "clutch shots" Mario Chalmers hits, I don't want the ball in his hands at the end of a game. He's only getting those shots in the first place because he's usually left wide-open. Big difference between him hitting a shot in the final seconds as opposed to someone like Wade.
I think this is why being clutch is such a relatively vague premise. You may believe it's a player's ability to create their own shot at the end of a game, even if that means the shot they create has a chance of being off the mark the vast majority of the time. I tend to believe it's more about a player's ability to make shots when they count, period.

As such, I would want the ball in Mario Chalmers' hands if he hypothetically had a high completion percentage in the clutch (I don't know if he does). I just wouldn't want him playing beyond himself, trying to do things he can't. I'd want to do what I could to find him a spot up triple if that was where he was most dangerously successful.

So hypothetically, if Cleveland LeBron James had a terrible history and low field goal percentage when attempting shots over double teams at the end of games while his teammate, Damon Jones, had a statistical history of hitting a high percentage of three pointers in the clutch and otherwise, I'd want James to make that pass (out of double team to open Jones) 10 out of 10 times. In that case, I think it'd be a clutch pass by James and clutch shot opportunity for Jones.

A big part of clutch to me is finding the play that has the highest chance of success.

[Maneva]

Sorry but what do you want me to say.. you're saying he isn't afraid, and gets off good shots, so why is his missing close to 75 percent of them.

Tell me?

I didn't say he gets off "good" shots, I said he gets off "makeable shots for him." Not to nitpick but I think there's a big difference. As for why he's been missing so many: I've stated this twice already, but he's been incredibly unclutch the last 2 years. I'm guessing it has to do with the loss of a lot of his athleticism, but he can't create space or his own shot as well as he used to. I think he used to be incredibly clutch for reasons I've stated, but he's dropped off quite a bit.

You've gotten so sidetracked with Kobe that you're missing the whole point of my original post. I'll say it one more time: clutch stats are misleading and there's more to determining if a player's clutch than how many shots they've made in the final seconds.

[Quickening]

I havent read through this but I know these stats are all cherry picking, u can make lebron seem like a clutch god or like a joke and u can do the same for kobe. only thing u can really do is just watch the games, and they show kobe is pretty dam clutch *overall*

No stats can make Kobe look like a clutch god....:lol

Everyone stat just exposes how poor he actually is.

[Quickening]

I didn't say he gets off "good" shots, I said he gets off "makeable shots for him." Not to nitpick but I think there's a big difference. As for why he's been missing so many: I've stated this twice already, but he's been incredibly unclutch the last 2 years. I'm guessing it has to do with the loss of a lot of his athleticism, but he can't create space or his own shot as well as he used to. I think he used to be incredibly clutch for reasons I've stated, but he's dropped off quite a bit.

You've gotten so sidetracked with Kobe that you're missing the whole point of my original post. I'll say it one more time: clutch stats are misleading and there's more to determining if a player's clutch than how many shots they've made in the final seconds.


Lat 2 years... look at the clutch stats, he was poor in his prime.... nothing to do with his athletiscm.

Seems like you just move the goal posts to keep making excuses for him.:biggums:

[RazorBaLade]

No stats can make Kobe look like a clutch god....:lol

Everyone stat just exposes how poor he actually is.

No there's been a lot of stats that make him look really good.

[Quickening]

No there's been a lot of stats that make him look really good.

Ok, lets hear them?

[RazorBaLade]

Ok, lets hear them?

i dont have them saved or whatever, ive seen them befoer tho. im sure bladers or lakersreign or whoever has em abnd will post if he wants to.

[Maneva]

I think this is why being clutch is such a relatively vague premise. You may believe it's a player's ability to create their own shot at the end of a game, even if that means the shot they create has a chance of being off the mark the vast majority of the time. I tend to believe it's more about a player's ability to make shots when they count, period.

As such, I would want the ball in Mario Chalmers' hands if he hypothetically had a high completion percentage in the clutch (I don't know if he does). I just wouldn't want him playing beyond himself, trying to do things he can't. I'd want to do what I could to find him a spot up triple if that was where he was most dangerously successful.

So hypothetically, if Cleveland LeBron James had a terrible history and low field goal percentage when attempting shots over double teams at the end of games while his teammate, Damon Jones, had a statistical history of hitting a high percentage of three pointers in the clutch and otherwise, I'd want James to make that pass (out of double team to open Jones) 10 out of 10 times. In that case, I think it'd be a clutch pass by James and clutch shot opportunity for Jones.

A big part of clutch to me is finding the play that has the highest chance of success.

I see what you're saying and I agree. I just don't know that I'd consider James Jones' shot all that clutch since just getting the shot off is completely dependent on LeBron. So in this hypothetical situation, if Jones shoots say 80% on game winners, and LeBron shoots 40%, is Jones more clutch even if his shots are completely wide open and dependent on LeBron getting double teamed and finding him with a good pass, while LeBron is taking tough shots over a double team because there's no open man?

[Quickening]

i dont have them saved or whatever, ive seen them befoer tho. im sure bladers or lakersreign or whoever has em abnd will post if he wants to.

:facepalm

[Coffee Black]

Uh, no. First, I already stated that Kobe's been really unclutch the last 2 years, and last night was one of the biggest chokejobs I've seen that obviously lost his team the game.

My points are just that clutch stats can, and often are, misleading, and that there's more to determining clutchness than how many shots they've made in the final seconds. Christ, people.

Lmao dude. I wasn't commenting on what you said. I agree with you. lol I am just elaborating to other posters that there are more to the numbers, and that was just one example.

[Maneva]

Lat 2 years... look at the clutch stats, he was poor in his prime.... nothing to do with his athletiscm.

Seems like you just move the goal posts to keep making excuses for him.:biggums:

I'm seriously done explaining my thoughts on clutch stats to you. Do you not retain anything from more than 2 posts ago?

And moving the goal posts? I've said the same thing over and over right from the start. Notice how I've been using quotes in all my posts? Plus you say I'm making excuses for him when I've mentioned how bad he's been lately in most of my posts. Again, you're completely ignoring my point and just focusing on Kobe, who I was simply using as an example for a bigger point. I guess this is the last time I use him as an example for anything since nobody can be the slightest bit objective about him.

[Maneva]

Lmao dude. I wasn't commenting on what you said. I agree with you. lol I am just elaborating to other posters that there are more to the numbers, and that was just one example.

My bad. Misunderstood (edit: thought you were being sarcastic or something for some reason) and I'm getting all defensive now cause of other posters in this thread :oldlol: I guess this my que to sign off insidehoops for the day.

[LakersReign]

I'm seriously done explaining my thoughts on clutch stats to you. Do you not retain anything from more than 2 posts ago?

And moving the goal posts? I've said the same thing over and over right from the start. Notice how I've been using quotes in all my posts? Plus you say I'm making excuses for him when I've mentioned how bad he's been lately in most of my posts. Again, you're completely ignoring my point and just focusing on Kobe, who I was simply using as an example for a bigger point. I guess this is the last time I use him as an example for anything since nobody can be the slightest bit objective about him.

The person you're talking to is the most irrational Kobe hater on ISH. His real account is bwink23. But he can't post with it cuz he got himself banned with his irrational Kobe hate. He's clearly only on here to troll, so it would be best to no longer waste your time.

[Quickening]

I'm seriously done explaining my thoughts on clutch stats to you. Do you not retain anything from more than 2 posts ago?

And moving the goal posts? I've said the same thing over and over right from the start. Notice how I've been using quotes in all my posts? Plus you say I'm making excuses for him when I've mentioned how bad he's been lately in most of my posts. Again, you're completely ignoring my point and just focusing on Kobe, who I was simply using as an example for a bigger point. I guess this is the last time I use him as an example for anything since nobody can be the slightest bit objective about him.

Stat= objective.

You can't just say... duh I think Kobe is great under pressue and can get off his shots.

But Ill just ignore his crappy stats in the 4th quarter... your opinion is subjective, stats are objective.

[Rake2204]

I see what you're saying and I agree. I just don't know that I'd consider James Jones' shot all that clutch since just getting the shot off is completely dependent on LeBron. So in this hypothetical situation, if Jones shoots say 80% on game winners, and LeBron shoots 40%, is Jones more clutch even if his shots are completely wide open and dependent on LeBron getting double teamed and finding him with a good pass, while LeBron is taking tough shots over a double team because there's no open man?
Righto. I see where you're at as well. If the word "clutch" is just an idea of how good someone theoretically can be at creating something heroic from nothing, then surely that'd shift the thought process from this end.

However, assuming a player has a very high percentage (say, 64%) of hitting open threes via kick out in end-of-game situations (on more than just a handful of attempts) versus a star player's low percentage of hitting any field goals (say, 33%) I'd want to do whatever possible to get the ball to the open 65% 3pt. shooter, as I mentioned in my last post. In that situation, a number of "clutch" plays would likely have to take place. Since the spot-up shooter can't create for himself, he'd probably need to be the beneficiary of a teammate making a clutch drive and clutch kick out. The shooter would then have to chime in with the clutch made shot.

So again, clutch to me is a ton of different things. However, if someone's definition of clutch is simply a matter of shot-making, I'd take the higher percentage shot over the lower percentage shot every day of the week.

[JohnnyWall]

Quickening, you're an idiot. You should stop posting.

[chips93]

Oh I see, I see.... I based mine on what actually happens, you base it on the players physical appearance.

Got you.


define clutch

[chazzy]

B) 31 percent is still awful
It's slightly above league average

[Quickening]

Quickening, you're an idiot. You should stop posting.

You should stfu, thanks.:lol

[LuppersGB]

in this world there three types of lies
1)Lies
2)True lies
and
3)Statistics

you can bend statistics to say anything you want.

At the end of the year all Basketball GMS (or head coaches I can't remember which) are polled on who they would want taking a last shot, as far as I can remember they all want Kobe.
He personifies clutch along with, IMO, people like CP3, Melo, Dirk, Durant, Rose, Wade and PP34. I'd always want these guys taking last shots. I would not give 2 fukcs whether they missed their last 99 attempts. You all know they are gona step up and make something happen

[Kews1]

Kobe had a couple of years of being good in the clutch and a season where he was great. But a majority of the time this dude sucks in the clutch, the NBA,his fans and pretty much everybody who likes this dude has his black mamba stuck so far down their throat that they cant seem to speak up on their own opinions and what comes out is just some recycled shit that they have heard before. If there are stats that say he is bad in the last 10 seconds or whatever then he is bad in the last 10 seconds theres no two ways around it. The Mamba had always been a myth.

[LakersReign]

Kobe had a couple of years of being good in the clutch and a season where he was great. But a majority of the time this dude sucks in the clutch, the NBA,his fans and pretty much everybody who likes this dude has his black mamba stuck so far down their throat that they cant seem to speak up on their own opinions and what comes out is just some recycled shit that they have heard before. If there are stats that say he is bad in the last 10 seconds or whatever then he is bad in the last 10 seconds theres no two ways around it. The Mamba had always been a myth.


ALL that applies to "king james" as well. If we're gonna talk about it, then let's talk about it:no:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Kobe's always been a clutch player. One of the best in the league throughout his career.

Where many of us have problems is when the media and his stupid fans try and make it seem like he's some legendary closer(I hate that term by the way) or is so far beyond his peers in clutch situations. The evidence, both visual and statistical show that this is not the case. He's actually much closer to the rest of the pack. Nothing to be ashamed of, just that he's not as clutch as he's made out to be. You shouldn't fear him any more than you would Dirk or Melo or CP3, etc.

You get crap like this:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-plaschke-lakers-20120517,0,5060074.column

Calling him the "greatest closer in basketball history" and you see where the BS comes from.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe is obviously clutch.
You cannot look at stats. They don't tell the story.
How many times is Kobe getting the ball with 3 seconds remaining (thus a bad shot attempt)? How many times is Kobe getting doubled compared to others taking the last shot? etc etc

[Kiarip]

Why does shooting 32% deserve praise though??? it signals to me that hero ball leads to failure more times then not. Kobe would shoot better if he trusted the offense instead of jacking up low % jump shots.

Of course hero ball leads to low percentages, but passing the ball in the clutch leads to turnovers, and not being able to put up a shot in time or having a poor foul-shooter fouled, or having an even worse shooter take a well-defended shot, and etc.

Here's the truth about "clutchness," there's no such thing really.

Kobe never passes in the last seconds, as a result every single last second shot he takes is really tough. These are shots that would generally be considered bad shots in general, but during final seconds it's hard to get a good look, especially because you don't want to risk turn-overs, so no of course Kobe isn't gonna have 65% or 50% or even 40% shooting in the "clutch," why would he? those shots are physically the hardest to make because they are always very well defended, and he barely shoots like 45% from the field overall.

Everyone, whose last shot % is higher than their regular fg% either have a sample too small of last shots taken, or actually gets better shots in the last seconds, which means that either he or his team is lazy during the majority of the game (or if the sample is again small he could be playing against teams that break down defensively in the last seconds.)


So the lakers are gonna keep passing the ball to Kobe and hes' gonna keep putting up game-winners at roughly 30% clip or w.e he's been doing, but that's actually not that bad, because unless there's a huge defensive breakdown it's actually above average for the league in last-second makes.



Now just because there's no such as being "clutch," it doesn't mean there's no such thing as "choking," which you can do if you make the wrong decision statistically more often during crunch time than on regular.

For example, Lebron passing up an open game winning shot many times in a row is choking, because even if his team thinks the open man should take the shot, he should be the one who takes it if he's open.

As for someone who's their team designated crunch time shooter like Kobe, if he's turning over the ball a lot more than usual, or not being able to put up a shot in time, yeah he's choking, but if he's shooting and making 30% like he usually does, he's not, he's simply taking the last second shot.

[DonDadda59]

ESPN (doing the usual Jordan comparison(s) around this time of year) just showed a graphic, In game-winning/tying shots in the playoffs:

Michael Jordan 9-18 (50%)
Lebron James 5-12 (41.7%)
Kobe Bryant 7-27 (25.9%)

Take away whatever you want from that.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah Kobe's taken a nosedive these past two years in clutch play, but he's always been one of the best performers late in games. It's his rep in game winners that gets overblown - he makes the most but also takes and misses the most. His percentages are just slightly above league average on a high volume.

This. Kobe has been one of the best late game players in the league since around the 01 season. Anyone saying Kobe is not clutch is being absurd. As Chazzy says, its his rep on game winners..well, specifically playoff game winners, that is truly overblown.

But make no mistake, Kobe's play in crunch time in both the regular season and playoffs has been very good overall. Really only Dirk and Lebron have produced as consistently and as well as Kobe in clutch situations (meaning crunch time play and game winners) this era.

ESPN just showed some pretty shocking numbers:

Playoff game winners:

Jordan 9-18
Dirk 5-12
Lebron 5-12
Kobe 7-27

To Kobe's credit, some of those shots were very difficult, however, those shots/plays are of the utmost importance. Just think about a few examples last year and this year. Kobe missed the wide open shots in game 1 against the Mavs last year...if he makes, might change the entire series. Dirk makes the game winner in game 2 against the Heat. If he misses that the Mavs likely lose the series. Durant making the game winner against the Mavs in game 1. Series goes at least 6 if he misses that.

Winning and losing can be extremely fragile in the NBA playoffs and often times it comes down to late game play unless you have a dominant team like the 01 Lakers.

So the point is not to take it to either extreme. Kobe is definitely clutch...he's just not remotely as clutch as his rep.

[swi7ch]

They also said Billups was 3-27 in his last 30 clutch situations....

Bill Simmons has a great article on why people should stop calling Billups "Mr. Big Shot."

[DMAVS41]

Bill Simmons has a great article on why people should stop calling Billups "Mr. Big Shot."

He's literally been the worst player on game winners since the 06 season. I swear if you make a couple big shots at some point in your career you are forever known as being clutch.

Billups has been terrible.

There was a poll last year about which players would GM's want taking the last shot. Kobe was 1. Billups was 2.

Carmelo didn't make top 5 iirc.

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is obviously clutch.
You cannot look at stats. They don't tell the story.
How many times is Kobe getting the ball with 3 seconds remaining (thus a bad shot attempt)? How many times is Kobe getting doubled compared to others taking the last shot? etc etc

The stats show that Kobe is clutch though. And you can absolutely look at them.

You can look at clutch play, super clutch play, game winners, offensive efficiency, and record in tight games.

What more do you need?

And by the way, Kobe is statistically one of the most clutch players of this era. Only player I think performs better would be Dirk overall. And even then that is debatable.

If you are talking about solely game winners, then no, Kobe is nothing special....especially in the playoffs.

But overall? The stats show that Kobe is clutch. Not sure what people are looking at....

[Kiarip]

He's literally been the worst player on game winners since the 06 season. I swear if you make a couple big shots at some point in your career you are forever known as being clutch.

Billups has been terrible.

There was a poll last year about which players would GM's want taking the last shot. Kobe was 1. Billups was 2.

Carmelo didn't make top 5 iirc.

:wtf:
Billups has terrible decision making in general with respect to when he should take those 3s, so I think that he can easily be considered quite clutch when compared to what he normally does.

[RazorBaLade]

Kobe's game winners arent that good because he takes the dumbest shots I've ever seen, the fact that he can even make one of them is a testament to his skill in big moments.. He's just not very smart at game winners.. Put him a clutch situation and he will perform and be smart, give him 5 seconds to make a shot and he will take a fall away 3 pter for no ****ing reason

[longtime lurker]

Kobe, Melo, Pierce. Those are the 3 guys I want in the clutch. Put them in any order you want, stats can kiss my ass

[RazorBaLade]

Kobe, Melo, Pierce. Those are the 3 guys I want in the clutch. Put them in any order you want, stats can kiss my ass

Same but I'll also take CP3. Dirk is a distant 5th but a clear 5th. Those 5 guys in the clutch, I'd sleep well if my team lost from a missed shot by them.

[Blue&Orange]

There was a poll last year about which players would GM's want taking the last shot. Kobe was 1. Billups was 2.

Carmelo didn't make top 5 iirc.

:wtf:
GM's are idiots...there was an article by some journalist about how clueless they are, sometimes i feel sorry for not bookmarking this things, but he went to a unnamed GM that was about to acquire a unnamed player, asked him if he wasn't worried about the microfracture surgery the player had, and the GM replied "He had what? How do you this stuff? " :lol

Bu-bu-bu-bu Kobe is clutch, GM's\coaches said so. :facepalm

[Kews1]

ALL that applies to "king james" as well. If we're gonna talk about it, then let's talk about it:no:

i dont care about Lebron, hes not on the celtics he could be just as bad as kobe i dont even care, all im sayin is Kobes just overhyped.