ESPN Biggest Lebron Apologist Hollinger, right on cue.

[Bladers]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story?page=PERDiem-120518&_slug_=nba-playoffs-miami-heat-lebron-james-shouldering-heavy-load&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fplayoffs%2f2012%2fstory%3fpage%3dPERDiem-120518%26_slug_%3dnba-playoffs-miami-heat-lebron-james-shouldering-heavy-load

[QUOTE]John Hollinger, ESPN.com:
LeBron James has to be having d

[swi7ch]

Full article (fukk formatting):

LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james) has to be having d

[AMISTILLILL]

LOL @ the fact that Chalmers had a career playoff that night, yet gets written off as an 'overmatched scrub' in that article. Dude is SHAMELESS.

[Phong]

It's everybody else's fault if LeBron disappeared in the second half after the game was tied at half-time. :rolleyes:

[Rose]

It's everybody else's fault if LeBron disappeared in the second half after the game was tied at half-time. :rolleyes:
No kidding.

4 points in the third?

Sorry but when all you do is statpad in the 4th after the game is decided? **** you.

[heyhey]

Lebron fans are the most shameless crowd in sport. they throw EVERYONE under the bus to deflect attention from their boy. I would hate to be one of his teammates, never get to dribble the ball and get all the blame no matter how small lebron comes up.

[Dengness9]

**** Hollinger, he's pathetic.

I dont wanna hear anyone talking about Lebron James not having enough help. Injuries are a part of the game and look what injuries have already done to other EC playoff teams....

Bulls - Rose ACL, Noah Ankle, Deng wrist

Knicks - Lin Knee, Amare back, Shumpert Knee

Magic - Dwight Howard

Celtics - Ray Allen ankle, Paul Pierce Knee

Even though I don't really like the guy, Gilbert was right, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.

[Indian guy]

Sorry but when all you do is statpad in the 4th after the game is decided? **** you.

Huh? LeBron had less points in the 4th than he did in the 3rd.

[kentatm]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?

[Phong]

Huh? LeBron had less points in the 4th than he did in the 3rd.LeBron scored 2 pts in the 3rd, and 4 pts in the 4th when Indiana had a 20-pt lead.

[Bladers]

Huh? LeBron had less points in the 4th than he did in the 3rd.

He had only two points in the third and 4 in the 4th in garbage time while down 20.

In conclusion he basically had 2 points in the second half.
But his lawyers like hollinger want you to believe he is dragging the Miami heat on his shoulders. and he's carrying them, Its ridiculous. Because he is not.

Its funny the same hollinger still haven't said anything about the finals from last year. Lebron single handly costing the heat the title.

Its the same thing with these lebron fanboys. Its everyone's fault but lebron.

[Indian guy]

Don't see how he's being an apologist. Miami's a 3-man team, with 1 of them out for the series and the other shooting so poorly you might as well think it's Kobe in disguise.

LeBron should get partial blame for his poor 2nd half yesterday, but he's the last reason why Miami's down 2-1. Anyone blaming him are probably watching too much First Take, who're now blaming Wade's struggles on LeBron too :oldlol:

[Bladers]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?

Tie game and Lebron scores 2 points in the second half.

Lebron is just as much to be blamed as wade is. Two points? in a tie game? are you kidding me.

Yeah he was carrying the heat, he sure was. With those two points. But ofcourse Chalmers 25 points wasn't.

[Droid101]

Even though I don't really like the guy, Gilbert was right, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.
I would give my left nut if the Heat fell off a little next season (say, 5 seed) and the Cavs caught fire after winning the first pick (again) and signing a savvy vet, and nabbed the 4 seed.

My left Nut.

[Phong]

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?How are you supposed to win when a role player is having the game of his life and outscoring your MVP ass. :confusedshrug:

[Bladers]

Don't see how he's being an apologist. Miami's a 3-man team, with 1 of them out for the series and the other shooting so poorly you might as well think it's Kobe in disguise.

LeBron should get partial blame for his poor 2nd half yesterday, but he's the last reason why Miami's down 2-1. Anyone blaming him are probably watching too much First Take, who're now blaming Wade's struggles on LeBron too :oldlol:
'
Really Really


Welcome to Cleveland, Fla., Mr. James. Hope you like the palm trees.

Basically saying Lebron doesn't have enough help. AGAIN!
When will they realize its lebron not his team.

[Indian guy]

Lebron is just as much to be blamed as wade is.

For scoring 17 more points than him? Huh?

Look, I get it, LeBron being a threat to overtake Kobe's legacy keeps you up a lot of nights, but you gotta have some objectivity.

[Boston C's]

Tie game and Lebron scores 2 points in the second half.

Lebron is just as much to be blamed as wade is. Two points? in a tie game? are you kidding me.

Yeah he was carrying the heat, he sure was. With those two points. But ofcourse Chalmers 25 points wasn't.

bolded is absolutely not true and i dont even like lebron... lebron at least played well for a half... wade was awful all game this game was all on wade... lebron gets some blame for his second half but not nearly as much as wade should get for his performance

chalmers was better then both of them combined :lol

[Indian guy]

'

Basically saying Lebron doesn't have enough help. AGAIN!

How is it not true though? He was playing with sub-20 win supporting casts in Cleveland. Currently, he's on a team with by far the league's worst roster from 4-12. Problem is, the team's 3rd best player is out and the 2nd best player is clearly on the decline and playing some awful basketball. You can bitch about it, but it's true, LeBron doesn't have enough help right now.

[Bladers]

For scoring 17 more points than him? Huh?

Look, I get it, LeBron being a threat to overtake Kobe's legacy keeps you up a lot of nights, but you gotta have some objectivity.

Dude this has nothing to do with Kobe.

He should get as much blame because he only scored 2 legit points in the second half, 2 points more than wade scored in the first half.

Yeah he had a great first half, but he sunk it up so BAD in the second half. just as much as wade sunk it up in the first half.

Compare wade's first half to lebron's and you don't see much difference.

But ofcourse hollinger being in lebron's defense team came out with a excuse.


There he was Thursday night, in a playoff series, trying to carry four overmatched teammates on his back against a deeper, more balanced opponent. There he was, setting up open jumpers that teammates missed, enduring a huge minutes load at both ends and ultimately running out of gas at the end from the burden.

He is saying Lebron's two point zero assist second half is because he ran out of gas from carrying the heat in the first half.

yeah he ran out of gas in the 3rd Qtr. LMAO!

That is just ludacris. Almost hilarious. That's why he's an apologist.

Look at Hollingers article track record. When has he said anything he says for lebron for any other superstar or team leader, Kobe, Wade, or even melo.

He's a lebron lover. Just admit it.

[Rysio]

again with this lebron has no help garbage? lol you can give lebrick dwight and cp3 and his fanboys will still say he has no help.

[cavsfanatic]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?
right lol. These people talking bout Lebron apologist are Lebron haters. I'm a Cavs fan and Mo Williams never had 5 points lmao. ppl hilarious and show their bias in threads. My Cavs cool so I have no hate towards Lebron.

Lebron played bad yesterday but to not say anything about Wade is truly laughable

[Bladers]

How is it not true though? He was playing with sub-20 win supporting casts in Cleveland. Currently, he's on a team with by far the league's worst roster from 4-12. Problem is, the team's 3rd best player is out and the 2nd best player is clearly on the decline and playing some awful basketball. You can bitch about it, but it's true, LeBron doesn't have enough help right now.

sub 20? The entire roster of Cleveland were different after lebron left.

Only 4 out of 12 personnel on their rosters were there and active.

Heat are the most stacked team in NBA history. The supposed best player in Lebron. The supposed top 3 player in Wade and the supposed top 5 PF in Bosh.

There are no excuses, and injury is part of the game as you see every one is injured. and Miller, Jones, and Haslem would be a great bench in any team. Any team. Even starting in some.

The lakers would die to have them. Die.

Admit it, this same team even lesser made it to the finals and should have won the title against the weak mavs, but Lebron choked and cost them the championship.


How in the world is this same lebron who cost miami the title now getting praises?

Its not like he's playing great. He would be shooting sub 40% in this series if it wasn't for his stat padding he does at the end of games.

[bdreason]

**** Hollinger, he's pathetic.

I dont wanna hear anyone talking about Lebron James not having enough help. Injuries are a part of the game and look what injuries have already done to other EC playoff teams....

Bulls - Rose ACL, Noah Ankle, Deng wrist

Knicks - Lin Knee, Amare back, Shumpert Knee

Magic - Dwight Howard

Celtics - Ray Allen ankle, Paul Pierce Knee

Even though I don't really like the guy, Gilbert was right, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.



While I agree there are no excuses, even for injuries... the difference is people will let these teams off the hook for their injuries, while people will pile on the Heat regardless of injuries.



Where are all the "Bulls #1 seed choked to an 8th seed!" threads? You don't see them, because people recognize they weren't going to beat anyone, not even Philly, without Rose and Noah.

But I guarantee if the Heat lose to a #3 seed, nobody will give them any slack because Bosh went down, and Wade checked out. There will be 100 threads about how LeBron choked, and ESPN will talk about it for a month.

[swi7ch]

again with this lebron has no help garbage? lol you can give lebrick dwight and cp3 and his fanboys will still say he has no help.

To be fair, Wade really was no help last night with his 5 pts and no defense.

[rodman91]

Of course he is.. Lebron kills his PER argument! He exposes how PER is useless.

[Bladers]

Its funny because Lebron is shooting 0.91% from 3, 65% from FT line and should be around 40% from FG if it wasn't for his stat paddings.

And yet he's getting excuse made for him left and right.

[Glide2keva]

While I agree there are no excuses, even for injuries... the difference is people will let these teams off the hook for their injuries, while people will pile on the Heat regardless of injuries.



Where are all the "Bulls #1 seed choked to an 8th seed!" threads? You don't see them, because people recognize they weren't going to beat anyone, not even Philly, without Rose and Noah.

But I guarantee if the Heat lose to a #3 seed, nobody will give them any slack because Bosh went down, and Wade checked out. There will be 100 threads about how LeBron choked, and ESPN will talk about it for a month.
No one on those other teams said, "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4,....."

So as long as lebron is playing, that's going to always hang over his head.

[Rysio]

To be fair, Wade really was no help last night with his 5 pts and no defense.
yea but chalmers steped up for him. put up something like 25/5/5 on 70% shooting lol.

[Nick Young]

How is it not true though? He was playing with sub-20 win supporting casts in Cleveland. Currently, he's on a team with by far the league's worst roster from 4-12. Problem is, the team's 3rd best player is out and the 2nd best player is clearly on the decline and playing some awful basketball. You can bitch about it, but it's true, LeBron doesn't have enough help right now.
Give Lebron a top 5 player in the NBA, 7 time all star PF, Team USA roleplayers Battier and Mike Miller-he still doesn't have enough help:cry: :cry: :cry:


Has any journalist ever asked Lebron when he intends to start delivering on those 8 titles he promised to Miami?

Goddamn I wish I could be in those post game press conferences

[TheMan]

It's still too early to count Miami out in this series, if they lose gm 4, it's over but there is still alot of basketball to be played.

They aren't beating the West champion though, with or without Bosh

[Sarcastic]

I love how people go after the roster, and how his teammates are so bad.

Did you know that the Spurs have only 2 players that were drafted in the top 15 of the draft? Tim Duncan and Kwahi Leonard. Most of the rest of the team is late first round or second round.

[Rysio]

It's still too early to count Miami out in this series, if they lose gm 4, it's over but there is still alot of basketball to be played.

They aren't beating the West champion though, with or without Bosh
when a lebron led team loses hca its over. its a fact.

[cavsfanatic]

sub 20? The entire roster of Cleveland were different after lebron left.

Only 4 out of 12 personnel on their rosters were there and active.

Heat are the most stacked team in NBA history. The supposed best player in Lebron. The supposed top 3 player in Wade and the supposed top 5 PF in Bosh.

There are no excuses, and injury is part of the game as you see every one is injured. and Miller, Jones, and Haslem would be a great bench in any team. Any team. Even starting in some.

The lakers would die to have them. Die.

Admit it, this same team even lesser made it to the finals and should have won the title against the weak mavs, but Lebron choked and cost them the championship.


How in the world is this same lebron who cost miami the title now getting praises?

Its not like he's playing great. He would be shooting sub 40% in this series if it wasn't for his stat padding he does at the end of games. lmfao!

[Glide2keva]

I love how people go after the roster, and how his teammates are so bad.

Did you know that the Spurs have only 2 players that were drafted in the top 15 of the draft? Tim Duncan and Kwahi Leonard. Most of the rest of the team is late first round or second round.
lebron fan logic. When they win, the team is great and lebron is the greatest of them all.

When they lose, lebron doesn't have enough help and his teammates suck. They haven't changed their tune since Cleveland.

[cavsfanatic]

I love how people go after the roster, and how his teammates are so bad.

Did you know that the Spurs have only 2 players that were drafted in the top 15 of the draft? Tim Duncan and Kwahi Leonard. Most of the rest of the team is late first round or second round.
and that means? don't matter where you were drafted it matters how you play smh. are y'all really this stupid?

[christian1923]

I love how people go after the roster, and how his teammates are so bad.

Did you know that the Spurs have only 2 players that were drafted in the top 15 of the draft? Tim Duncan and Kwahi Leonard. Most of the rest of the team is late first round or second round.
Snapple Fact? :confusedshrug: Whats that got to do with the Miami Heat not making their shots. Doesnt matter where you get drafted.

[bdreason]

No one on those other teams said, "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4,....."

So as long as lebron is playing, that's going to always hang over his head.


Nobody can predict injuries. Any top heavy team that loses a key player will struggle to win. Chicago is considered a deep, balanced team, and they folded to a #8 seed because of injuries.

[Nick Young]

It's Lebron's perogative
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n0WvEM9Cz8

[Glide2keva]

Nobody can predict injuries. Any top heavy team that loses a key player will struggle to win. Chicago is considered a deep, balanced team, and they folded to a #8 seed because of injuries.
We lost our star player and our best center, so it was academic that the Bulls were going to lose.

lebron is hyped to the level that one would think that he can do anything. He still has Wade playing and good shooters arund him. That's MORE than enough to win. He's supposed to be the leader, so he doesn't get an excuse.

[Qwyjibo]

Don't see how he's being an apologist. Miami's a 3-man team, with 1 of them out for the series and the other shooting so poorly you might as well think it's Kobe in disguise.

LeBron should get partial blame for his poor 2nd half yesterday, but he's the last reason why Miami's down 2-1. Anyone blaming him are probably watching too much First Take, who're now blaming Wade's struggles on LeBron too :oldlol:
Pretty much.

For the Heat to be a powerhouse they need all three of their top players healthy. You take any one of them out and the dropoff to the guys backing him up is staggering. That's 35+ minutes you have to give to significantly inferior players. That's the risk when you build a "top-heavy" team like that with not much depth. Unfortunately for Miami, an injury happened at the worst time possible (playoffs).

Plus it was only "Cleveland South" for ONE game because Wade stunk. I don't think anyone is saying this will be a long-term thing. Wade is a superstar and a prolonged slump is unlikely. Hollinger was a bit over-dramatic but for this one game, he was on point.

[Yanch856]

and that means? don't matter where you were drafted it matters how you play smh. are y'all really this stupid?

Laugh out loud @ this guy who calls himself cavsfanatic, dons the cavs logo, and comes to ISH after yet another Lebron choke job to defend him by trying to blame wade. Talk about ironic.

You are not a cavs fan my friend.

[cavsfanatic]

Laugh out loud @ this guy who calls himself cavsfanatic, dons the cavs logo, and comes to ISH after yet another Lebron choke job to defend him by trying to blame wade. Talk about ironic.

You are not a cavs fan my friend.
I'm a basketball fan and have no bias towards Lebron anymore. My team got Kyrie and about to get another top pick so why would I throw away my common sense like y'all?

He said they were drafted in the 1st rd and the Spurs players weren't lmao. That makes sense to you? if it does you crazy as them.

[Phong]

He said they were drafted in the 1st rd and the Spurs players weren't lmao. That makes sense to you? if it does you crazy as them.Yes it makes sense. The Heat roster is filled with more talent than many teams and should be playing better.

Nobody was saying the Lakers had the worst team in the league when they had absolutely no bench production, MWP and Fisher couldn't hit any shots, Bynum was injured etc.. It was all about how the Lakers were stacked based on name recognition and potential.

Saying the Heat have the worst 4-12 players in the league is pure apologist bullshit.

[Streetballer]

"Maybe we can trade Turiaf for Dwight Howard, Chalmers for Westbrook, and then I'll get a title!!!"

-LeBron James:lebronamazed:

[vert48]

Hollinger was a bit over-dramatic but for this one game, he was on point.Hollinger is just butt hurt because it shows that PER is the ultimate all hat and no cattle statistic.

[Nick Young]

Lebron needs more help

[Phong]

LeBron apologists will only be satisfied once every teammates down to the last guy on the bench is scoring 15ppg at 75%. Until then LeBron has the worst supporting cast in the league... IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE!

[Kobr]

For anyone saying that the Heat have the worst bench in the league, I invite you to check out the Lakers bench. :lol

[Doranku]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?

More like how are you supposed to win when you're apparently the MVP of the league and you get thoroughly outperformed by Mario f*cking Chalmers. :roll:

[Nick Young]

Lebron needs Dwight Howard and Deron Williams to replace Anthony and Chalmers, then maybe MAYBE he'll be able to make up for the horrific worst roster in the league he's currently playing on.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Hollinger is just butt hurt because it shows that PER is the ultimate all hat and no cattle statistic.
^^^ under rated post, imo.

[Dengness9]

I would give my left nut if the Heat fell off a little next season (say, 5 seed) and the Cavs caught fire after winning the first pick (again) and signing a savvy vet, and nabbed the 4 seed.

My left Nut.


Its only fair that if you're giving your left nut, I will give up my right nut for this too happen as well....:dancin

I can only say that as a Bulls fan, because next season will probably be a down year for the Bulls as far as expectations have been the last two years.:banghead:

[Kurosawa0]

Yes, Wade had 5 points and played no defense, so LeBron's clearly to blame here.

[Phong]

Lebron needs Dwight Howard and Deron Williams to replace Anthony and Chalmers, then maybe MAYBE he'll be able to make up for the horrific worst roster in the league he's currently playing on.And that's a big MAYBE.. if those two don't have the best seasons of their lives, they will be labeled the worst center and point guard in the entire league.

LeBron needs superstar teammates playing at superstar level to win. Because that's what every championship team had.

[Streetballer]

Lebron could be on a team with

P.G-Paul
S.G-Wade
S.F-Lebron
P.F-Durant
C-Howard

And still Find a way to sh..T away the game.

Like really How Much f...king Help does he need???

What would be Funny is if in the next 5 years the Cav's Add some Pieces and Win a Ring Before Bron..That Sh!t Would be EPIC!!!!!

[bdreason]

I'm surprised by all the Bulls fans in this thread, considering your team just got embarrassed by losing to a #8 seed in the first round.

[returnofthemack]

I would give my left nut if the Heat fell off a little next season (say, 5 seed) and the Cavs caught fire after winning the first pick (again) and signing a savvy vet, and nabbed the 4 seed.

My left Nut.

i would give the tip of my ***** and my ps3 to see this happen. (ok no i wouldnt but if dan gilbert threw in like 2 million dollars i would)

[vert48]

In the 2006, LeBron could only get the Bronze medal at the World Championship with this team (4 of them currently play for the Heat):

LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Antawn Jamison
Brad Miller
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh
Elton Brand
Shane Battier
Kirk Hinrich
Chris Paul
Joe Johnson

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

you guys should NOT be bashing Lebron on this one.
Bash Hollinger.
With respect to Lebron:
He is still learning how/when to utilize teammates so that, when it matters most, they are "in rhythm". This is a delicate balancing act.
The result, so far, is that he seems to turn any/all teammates into lesser players than they really are.
He is still growing/learning.

[dajadeed]

Hollinger is upset because the playoffs keep throwing his shitty stats through the window. Apparently PER doesn't translate into anything on the court. The guy, and countless others, was trumpting this as one of the greatest individual seasons ever. Statistically.

Like others have said, he overlooks the fact that every other team in the east is putting up with injuries. They are a part of the game.

I don't remember his articles about Kobe's teammates back when he had Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown starting with him in the playoffs in the West. Dude is a hypocrite and is just lashing out because his dumbass stats are proving to be inconsequential in real life.

[gilalizard]

In his own words, LeBron wanted it easy. Now it's not, and his drooling stans are lining up the excuses to explain away his inherent lack of competitive spirit.

Plus, the Heat have solid roleplayers. Every team deals with its roleplayers not showing up. That's when the leaders take over. Chalmers did. Wade was a complete negative, in play and in leadership. LeBron disappeared in the 2nd half. Again.

With Bosh gone, right now, Chalmers is the heart of this team. Which is laughable considering the veteran presence of prime LeBron James and prime Dwyane Wade.

[caliman]

Yes it makes sense. The Heat roster is filled with more talent than many teams and should be playing better.

Nobody was saying the Lakers had the worst team in the league when they had absolutely no bench production, MWP and Fisher couldn't hit any shots, Bynum was injured etc.. It was all about how the Lakers were stacked based on name recognition and potential.

Saying the Heat have the worst 4-12 players in the league is pure apologist bullshit.


Boom

[Kingwillball]

Lol, the trolls are out in full effect spewing nonsense in this thread. The article Hollinger wrote is true. The facts are There thin front line is thinner w/o Bosh and Wade is not playing or acting like a superstar. The role players have been god awful and can't hit a shot minus one good gm from Chalmers. Lebron has notan been perfect either but far from reason they are losing. My bigg est question will be answeredn sun do heat pack it in or man up and show some pride and heart ?

[LakersReign]

Lol, the trolls are out in full effect spewing nonsense in this thread. The article Hollinger wrote is true. The facts are There thin front line is thinner w/o Bosh and Wade is not playing or acting like a superstar. The role players have been god awful and can't hit a shot minus one good gm from Chalmers. Lebron has notan been perfect either but far from reason they are losing. My bigg est question will be answeredn sun do heat pack it in or man up and show some pride and heart ?


B***h please.:rolleyes:

NONE of that seemed to be an issue when A-L-L Y-A-L-L were talking Heat championship dynasty. It's the same weak excuse you guys used when y'all were riding high on the Cavs bandwagon. GTFOH!!!!:rant

[Rysio]

In the 2006, LeBron could only get the Bronze medal at the World Championship with this team (4 of them currently play for the Heat):

LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Antawn Jamison
Brad Miller
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh
Elton Brand
Shane Battier
Kirk Hinrich
Chris Paul
Joe Johnson
no kobe no gold :no:

[LakersReign]

Hollinger is upset because the playoffs keep throwing his shitty stats through the window. Apparently PER doesn't translate into anything on the court. The guy, and countless others, was trumpting this as one of the greatest individual seasons ever. Statistically.

Like others have said, he overlooks the fact that every other team in the east is putting up with injuries. They are a part of the game.

I don't remember his articles about Kobe's teammates back when he had Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown starting with him in the playoffs in the West. Dude is a hypocrite and is just lashing out because his dumbass stats are proving to be inconsequential in real life.

ESPN and all their "experts" are about to look real dumb. Hollinger is also mad cuz like the rest of ESPN, he ALWAYS predicts Lebron to win an MVP and a title in the same year. They haven't been right, for how long now? And it's beginning to look like they're wrong again, this year as well. I stopped listening to them ages ago, once I realized that they never want to recognize all the hard work and dedication Kobe has put in for the last 16 years. But want to take every available opportunity to make convenient excuses for Lebron.

Read an article about the MVP last month. And there Hollinger was making excuses for Lebron's numbers taking a dip the latter part of April I think it was. But let them continue cuz it all seems like it's going to blow up in their faces.:applause:

[Bladers]

and now comes hollinger's pet project Henry Abbort.


TrueHoop Henry Abbott
Why isn't Dwyane Wade scoring? Quality playoff insight NBA Today from Luc Richard @MbahaMoute and @coachthorpe

I wonder where this was when lebron scored 8 points in the NBA finals.
I remember Abbort avoiding to discuss it like the plague and to this day has never discussed it. Even though he did his little 5 mins recap after each game.

He never talked about lebron's performance. Not once.

But wade? Well he's not a wade lover. What you see is what you get.
ESPN are filled with lebron nut huggers. And they are supposed to be objective sports writers. Its beyond disgusting.

[Droid101]

ESPN and all their "experts" are about to look real dumb. Hollinger is also mad cuz like the rest of ESPN, he ALWAYS predicts Lebron to win an MVP and a title in the same year. They haven't been right, for how long now?
Hollinger actually (finally) didn't pick LeBron to win it all this year for the first time since 2008. He picked the Spurs.

[steve]

ESPN and all their "experts" are about to look real dumb. Hollinger is also mad cuz like the rest of ESPN, he ALWAYS predicts Lebron to win an MVP and a title in the same year. They haven't been right, for how long now? And it's beginning to look like they're wrong again, this year as well. I stopped listening to them ages ago, once I realized that they never want to recognize all the hard work and dedication Kobe has put in for the last 16 years. But want to take every available opportunity to make convenient excuses for Lebron.

Read an article about the MVP last month. And there Hollinger was making excuses for Lebron's numbers taking a dip the latter part of April I think it was. But let them continue cuz it all seems like it's going to blow up in their faces.:applause:

Hollinger picked San Antonio to win it all.

[LakersReign]

Hollinger actually (finally) didn't pick LeBron to win it all this year for the first time since 2008. He picked the Spurs.

Ok, well I stand corrected. I stopped reading his articles a long time ago, so I wasn't aware he finally changed his pick.

[Droid101]

Ok, well I stand corrected. I stopped reading his articles a long time ago, so I wasn't aware he finally changed his pick.
Oh, don't be mad. He DID pick the Heat to win before the season started. At the beginning of the playoffs he picked Spurs over Heat in the finals.

Any way you slice it, he's pretty much an idiot.

[memetherapy]

Lebron isn't living up to the unattainable standards of idiots who think the best player in the game is actually heads and shoulders above everyone else. It's the same idiots who've never actually watched MJ play, but argue that no one in the present NBA would be able to score on him, as if he's a god instead of the most successful NBA player of the later 80s and 90s.

If his teammates made half the wide open shots they took, we'd be seeing "Lebron is a basketball" god threads.

The problem with miami right now is scoring and I can't help feeling Lebron is the last person to blame. He's been pretty dominant on defense and he's the only one creating open shots for other players and shooting a decent clip himself.

The problem here is that the role players around the big three have been unable to make an open shot...without bosh to play off the pick and roll with Lebron, he's stuck with a bunch of scrubs(except chalmers sometimes) and wade who's stuck going one on one and failing pretty consistently. Wade and Lebron play off each other well on the break after creating turnovers... But the playoffs mean more focus on protecting the ball and stopping easy fast breaks, which diminishes the advantage of having both those guys on a court at once.

Wade is the one who hasn't adapted. This team's only chance of winning is playing feisty defense and making smart decisions on offense...Lebron is doing that more than anyone... Wade isn't. The "scrubs" need to keep shooting when open, because they'll eventually drop, and you can't expect anyone, including wade or lebron, to score efficiently with no spacing.

Believe me...I'm not saying Lebron has been playing superbly, but he's playing well...and if wade and others weren't playing like total crap, you guys wouldn't be talking about Lebron sucking.

[LakersReign]

Oh, don't be mad. He DID pick the Heat to win before the season started. At the beginning of the playoffs he picked Spurs over Heat in the finals.

Any way you slice it, he's pretty much an idiot.

Not mad at all bro. Seeing the Heat about to faceplant makes my season.:lol

I've seen enough of ESPN's expert picks to know that 1 or 2 might pick other teams but the majority ALWAYS pick a team (Cavs/Heat) with Lebron on it to win the title. And as for Hollinger being an idiot. The reason why I stopped reading his stuff was cuz he predicted the Lakers to lose in the first round back in '09, I think it was. While picking the Cavs to win the title. We saw how that turned out:facepalm

[Heavincent]

lol at Hoolinger ignoring the fact that Chalmers was the Heat's best player in game 3 :oldlol:

****ing ESPN apologists :facepalm

[Nick Young]

Does anyone see a correlation with good players coming to play on Lebron's team and suddenly start performing below their usual standards?

2006 olympic team, D-Wade, Bosh, Battier, Miller with the heat.

Notice how everywhere Lebron goes, no matter who is on his team, Lebrons fans say they aren't good enough, or don't deliver when it matters. Seems like Lebron's fault

[LakersReign]

Does anyone see a correlation with good players coming to play on Lebron's team and suddenly start performing below their usual standards?

2006 olympic team, D-Wade, Bosh, Battier, Miller with the heat.

Notice how everywhere Lebron goes, no matter who is on his team, Lebrons fans say they aren't good enough, or don't deliver when it matters. Seems like Lebron's fault

IMO, it's really is Lebron's fault cuz he's never learned how not to be "ball dominant." As much as the Kobe haters call him a "ballhog" Kobe doesn't have to dominate the ball like Lebron does. Lebron has literally no off ball movement....NONE. If he doesn't have the ball, he does nothing by stand around waiting for it. So, the way I see it, he does make his teammates worse.

[steve]

Does anyone see a correlation with good players coming to play on Lebron's team and suddenly start performing below their usual standards?

2006 olympic team, D-Wade, Bosh, Battier, Miller with the heat.

Notice how everywhere Lebron goes, no matter who is on his team, Lebrons fans say they aren't good enough, or don't deliver when it matters. Seems like Lebron's fault

It couldn't be that guys like Miller and Battier are declining because they happen to be 32 and 33 respectively (and were both showing a drop off before they even got to the Heat). Wade really hasn't been performing below his standards (and even if he has, it's been minimal with the exception of this series), plus he's 30. Haslem's also 31 (and only marginally productive in his prime) and Joel Anthony has never been that good. Bosh is also adjusting to not being the focal point on a mediocre team, but is still playing well.

Do people gloss over these things intentionally?

[cavsfanatic]

Yes it makes sense. The Heat roster is filled with more talent than many teams and should be playing better.

Nobody was saying the Lakers had the worst team in the league when they had absolutely no bench production, MWP and Fisher couldn't hit any shots, Bynum was injured etc.. It was all about how the Lakers were stacked based on name recognition and potential.

Saying the Heat have the worst 4-12 players in the league is pure apologist bullshit. I'm not saying they have the worst 4-12 I'm saying what he said bout the Spurs made no sense!!!

Wade is a top 3 player after Lebron and Durant so him having 5 points and y'all saying it's Lebron's fault is laughable. Game 2 Lebron's fault? hell yea. at least make 1 ft to tie the game but game 3 is hysterical to say anything bout Bron before mentioning Wade.

I give a shit less bout Hollinger and his dumb system I watch the games and make up my own mind on what I see. Lebron performed bad for Lebron but for Wade aka Batman to have 5 points is insane.

My team is at home and I'm rooting for Okc to win the ship so I'm watching these playoffs enjoying it. Draft lottery May 30th is what I'm waiting for

[vert48]

Lebron isn't living up to the unattainable standards of idiots who think the best player in the game is actually heads and shoulders above everyone else.
That is all a load of crap! LeBron is attempting to live up to HIS OWN egomaniacal standards:
Has the nickname of "King James"
Tattooed "Chosen 1" on his back
Nike ran an ad campaign to "Witness" his greatness
His first Nike commercial was him coming into a church as "The Savior"
The Decision and "I'm going to take my talents to South Beach"
"Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4, Not 5, Not 6, Not 7"

[B]

Stupid thread filled with even more stupidity

Lebron took 9 shots in the 2nd half, that's hardly avoiding the big moment, The shots didn't fall, that's all. it happens it's no reflection on his game itself.

Lebron also tried to make plays by passing to wide open shooters including Wade who missed shot after shot in that half.

Mario Chalmers 4 fg's in the 2nd half
Entire Miami Heat minus Chalmers, 6 fgs in the second half

Lebron is not the reason why this team lost last night, IF you're trying to make that case you really don't shit about much

Sad a Laker fan has to try and defend Lebron but this thread is too much

[Phong]

Nike ran an ad campaign to "Witness" his greatnessAs a result he tattooed "Witness History" on his legs. :facepalm

[Nick Young]

That is all a load of crap! LeBron is attempting to live up to HIS OWN egomaniacal standards:
Has the nickname of "King James"
Tattooed "Chosen 1" on his back
Nike ran an ad campaign to "Witness" his greatness
His first Nike commercial was him coming into a church as "The Savior"
The Decision and "I'm going to take my talents to South Beach"
"Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4, Not 5, Not 6, Not 7"
again, has any journalist questioned Lebron about this yet?

[Heavincent]

Nobody is worse than ****ing Henry Abbott though. That dude is the biggest ****ing idiot. Bladers is right, he REFUSED to talk about Lebron during the Finals last year. Biggest series of the year, most popular player was playing like dog shit, yet he had absolutely nothing to say about Lebron. He knew he looked like a god damn fool because he said Lebron was just as good as Jordan right after the ECF :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Nobody is worse than ****ing Henry Abbott though. That dude is the biggest ****ing idiot. Bladers is right, he REFUSED to talk about Lebron during the Finals last year. Biggest series of the year, most popular player was playing like dog shit, yet he had absolutely nothing to say about Lebron. He knew he looked like a god damn fool because he said Lebron was just as good as Jordan right after the ECF :oldlol:

Abbort is the pauk of ESPN, all he does it master-bate to regular season boxscores. Then he has to argue with ppl with decent basketball knowledge; next thing you know, he gets publicly humilliated by Kurt Rambis.

[vert48]

IMO, it's really is Lebron's fault cuz he's never learned how not to be "ball dominant." As much as the Kobe haters call him a "ballhog" Kobe doesn't have to dominate the ball like Lebron does. Lebron has literally no off ball movement....NONE. If he doesn't have the ball, he does nothing by stand around waiting for it. So, the way I see it, he does make his teammates worse. I have posted a couple of times that LeBron is a spectator unless he has the ball in his hands, and the next time he moves without the ball will be the first.

He never works to get open, he just wants the ball handed to him at the top of the key. He never helps his teammates get open by setting picks or going down on the block and demanding the ball in a spot that will get open jumpers for teammates. He is basically completely useless, even as a decoy, without the ball in his hands.

Everybody bags on Kobe for copying MJ (too bad he somehow missed out on copying his shot selection), but it is like LeBron only watched tape of MJ in iso situations. I guess ESPN spent too much time showing all of MJ's iso highlights, instead of showing him working in the off season, posting up, changing his game, moving without the ball, etc.

[LakersReign]

I have posted a couple of times that LeBron is a spectator unless he has the ball in his hands, and the next time he moves without the ball will be the first.

He never works to get open, he just wants the ball handed to him at the top of the key. He never helps his teammates get open by setting picks or going down on the block and demanding the ball in a spot that will get open jumpers for teammates. He is basically completely useless, even as a decoy, without the ball in his hands.

Everybody bags on Kobe for copying MJ (too bad he somehow missed out on copying his shot selection), but it is like LeBron only watched tape of MJ in iso situations. I guess ESPN spent too much time showing all of MJ's iso highlights, instead of showing him working in the off season, posting up, changing his game, moving without the ball, etc.


That's why I laugh when his fans hype him up as some supposed "great defender." How can he be that, if he needs to ball most, if not all of the time? Kobe does all of the things Lebron DOES NOT do, but only gets picked on for taking bad shots. Makes sense if you don't think about it:facepalm

[vert48]

I have the feeling that had LeBron grown up in the 80's instead of the 90's, he would be emulating Magic instead of MJ, which would fit his game and demeanor much better. It's not too late :D

[LakersReign]

I have the feeling that had LeBron grown up in the 80's instead of the 90's, he would be emulating Magic instead of MJ, which would fit his game and demeanor much better. It's not too late :D


You're right, I've always felt that way. Lebron just isn't an MJ type leader player alpha male. What's funny is that Magic himself after last year's finals said that him and Wade have to decide who would become the passer on the Heat. Regardless of what his fans say, that should be Lebron, not Wade. His fans are screaming bloody murder about that cuz if it happens, they caqn kiss all those MJ comparisons good bye

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

[QUOTE=B

[(e)]

I laugh at the fact he called the other 4 starters over matched.

Miami has the best 2 players in the series. Possibly the 3rd best too before Bosh went down. There are no excuses for Lebron or the Miami Heat if they lose in the 2nd round to the Pacers.

Pacers are a solid, hard working team. No doubt they are good enough to beat Miami any given night (as they have proven), but this is the Playoffs in a 7 game series, Miami gets no breaks this year, especially Lebron. Anything short of a Championship for them has to be a failure, not even making the Finals, or the ECF for that matter, would be a huge failure.

[NumberSix]

Kobetards running wild

[rodman91]

Pacers had difficult time against Howardless Magic. Bosh's injury shouldn't be problem for a team suppose to win 8 rings.:lol

[(e)]

Pacers had difficult time against Howardless Magic. Bosh's injury shouldn't be problem for a team suppose to win 8 rings.:lol
Pacers won in 5. And won 4 in a row. Magic fought hard in that series, but the Pacers were far from struggling against them.

[rodman91]

Pacers won in 5. And won 4 in a row. Magic fought hard in that series, but the Pacers were far from struggling against them.

But when you considered all system was about Howard, every game should be blow out.

[chazzy]

People deflecting all blame from Lebron are just as bad as the ones who are only hammering him.

[LBJMVP]

Don't see how he's being an apologist. Miami's a 3-man team, with 1 of them out for the series and the other shooting so poorly you might as well think it's Kobe in disguise.

LeBron should get partial blame for his poor 2nd half yesterday, but he's the last reason why Miami's down 2-1. Anyone blaming him are probably watching too much First Take, who're now blaming Wade's struggles on LeBron too :oldlol:


to be fair, wade technically did more good for the team than lebron did in the second half.... which is very very pathetic.

tie game going into the second half, and chalmers is the only one playing hard. yet hollinger is praising lebron :facepalm

[LakersReign]

People deflecting all blame from Lebron are just as bad as the ones who are only hammering him.

What people are hammering Lebron about is the OBVIOUS double standard his supporters use for his flaws and failures. They're well quick to point out other player's flaws and failures, but ALWAYS have a convenient excuse for Lebron. In Cleveland, it was "his team sucked". So he left(on bad terms) for a supposedly better team. Now, he's coming up short with this new supposedly better team, it's STILL his team sucks. When will it end? Keeping in mind, we were all told that this guy was supposed to be better than Jordan, but still have yet to see him demonstrate any of the Jordan attributes. Yet you expect people not to hammer him?:wtf:

[Stern]

Pacers are lucky that Dwight was injured and they got the three seed.

[Droid101]

Pacers are lucky that Dwight was injured and they got the three seed.
Is this the new Heat excuse now? They're lucky to even be in this position?

Okay.

[chips93]

lebron is hyped to the level that one would think that he can do anything. He still has Wade playing and good shooters arund him. That's MORE than enough to win. He's supposed to be the leader, so he doesn't get an excuse.

funny how when the heat suck, people claim lebron is the leader of the heat, and should get all the blame

but when the heat are doing well, suddenly people wanna claim wade is just as good as lebron, and take credit away from lebron

cant have it both ways


Hollinger is just butt hurt because it shows that PER is the ultimate all hat and no cattle statistic.

people act like hollinger is claiming PER to be some all-eoncompassing metric, to which no others are neccessary to judge a player

hollinger has never claimed that PER is the be all and end all, its just one of many tools that you can use to evaluate a player

he doesnt claim its flawless, only a fool would

[QUOTE=B

[LakersReign]

funny how when the heat suck, people claim lebron is the leader of the heat, and should get all the blame

but when the heat are doing well, suddenly people wanna claim wade is just as good as lebron, and take credit away from lebron

cant have it both ways

People have been saying that same thing for over 2 years now. But it's the other way around. When the Heat lose, it's Wade's team. But when they win, it's Lebron's team. LMAO!!!! IMO, it was never Lebron's team to begin with. Lebronytes seem to want to remeMber what they want to, in order to make Lebron look good. Wade convinced Lebron to come to the Heat. Wade never left the Heat for Cleveland, so how the **** can the Heat NOW, be Lebron's team? Oh yeah, Lebron's the best player on the team now so that makes it his team. Hilarious. The Heat will only become Lebron's team when he outperfoms Wade in the playoffs and steps up big in the Finals. Magic had to win a title for an ailing Kareem before the Lakers were his team. Same rules apply to Lebron.

[Nash]

What is this? Lebron did his job, if Wade would have stopped bitching and shipped in with a few more points, it would have gone much better.

[vert48]

So, who has more apologists, LeBron or Obama?

[Bladers]

So, who has more apologists, LeBron or Obama?

Lebron by far. His are down right delusional.
At-least Obama's are rational.

[vert48]

Lebron by far. His are down right delusional.
At-least Obama's are rational.Only an Obama apologist would say that :D

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Obama had less to work with than Lebron.

[DMAVS41]

More help excuses? ROFL....

They were warranted in Cleveland. Not anymore.

[bwink23]

He had only two points in the third and 4 in the 4th in garbage time while down 20.

In conclusion he basically had 2 points in the second half.
But his lawyers like hollinger want you to believe he is dragging the Miami heat on his shoulders. and he's carrying them, Its ridiculous. Because he is not.

Its funny the same hollinger still haven't said anything about the finals from last year. Lebron single handly costing the heat the title.

Its the same thing with these lebron fanboys. Its everyone's fault but lebron.

OH FACK, the irony in that statement is killing me....:lol :lol

[RaininTwos]

People deflecting all blame from Lebron are just as bad as the ones who are only hammering him.

People? The only people I see doing that are trolls.

You've got half the damn forum on the other side.:oldlol:

[NumberSix]

Lebron fans are the most shameless crowd in sport. they throw EVERYONE under the bus to deflect attention from their boy. I would hate to be one of his teammates, never get to dribble the ball and get all the blame no matter how small lebron comes up.
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/11/1122_glasshouse/image/1.jpg

[amfirst]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?


Who cares... Remember Kobe vs. the Suns... He was over match, but came out guns blazing and lost. Same thing with Carmelo. LeBron needs to take over when his team mates need him. He shouldn't rely on them to show up or not. He is the leader and therefore accept the blame.

[iamgine]

Hollinger's correct. With no Bosh and Wade playing like local WMCA guy, Heat is worse than Lebron's Cleveland.

[longtime lurker]

Lol is Holinger kidding me? I don't think anyone's saying Lebron deserves all the blame especially since Wade played below d-league standards but it's a complete joke to compare this team to Cleveland which wasn't even horrible to begin with.

[SESSEL15]

I absolutely hate Lebron James but the lack of respect he gets from this board is ridiculous. His team is full of below average "role" players. 2 superstars doesn't equal success. Dallas of last year beat them because of depth. The spurs and okc are so much more balanced and deep than the heat. Lebron is amazing , best player on the planet , it's not his fault this team is horribly formulated.

[Phong]

LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? :confusedshrug:

[LakersReign]

I absolutely hate Lebron James but the lack of respect he gets from this board is ridiculous. His team is full of below average "role" players. 2 superstars doesn't equal success. Dallas of last year beat them because of depth. The spurs and okc are so much more balanced and deep than the heat. Lebron is amazing , best player on the planet , it's not his fault this team is horribly formulated.

It's cuz of his delusional fans coming up with the same tired excuses EVERY SINGLE TIME he fails. That's the same excuse y'all used those 7 years he was in Cleveland. He came to the Heat, and ALL Y'ALL were talking championship Heat dynasty. But now it's right back to "oh...well...they suck. So...when Lebron said "not 1, not 2, not 3....he was talking about a championship dynasty full of below average role players? LMAO!!!! Can't have it both ways. Either get some new material or simply stfu cuz nobody's going to by those same tired excuses this time.:no:

[Phong]

Since 2009, every year has been the same. Every team with LeBron has performed very well in the regular season and all the LeBron fans are promising a championship because the team is so deep. But as soon as they lose in the playoffs, suddenly the coach is a piece of trash and all the players except for LeBron are nothing but scrubs. It has happened for 4 consecutive years now and with totally different rosters around LeBron. At some point, you have to look at the common denominator.

[DMAVS41]

Since 2009, every year has been the same. Every team with LeBron has performed very well in the regular season and all the LeBron fans are promising a championship because the team is so deep. But as soon as they lose in the playoffs, suddenly the coach is a piece of trash and all the players except for LeBron are nothing but scrubs. It has happened for 4 consecutive years now and with totally different rosters around LeBron. At some point, you have to look at the common denominator.

Well, blaming Lebron for 09 is absurd. You could blame him a little for 2010, but that team was just seriously outmatched.

Last year? Yep...a disgrace.

This year? Yep...just not playing well enough. He's in the heart of his prime. He has to be dominant. He has to take over. He's not doing that. The Pacers are good, but hardly great. He choked his ass off in game 2 and then no showed the 2nd half in game 3.

Can't ignore it all and it makes you question even if he had great help on the Cavs whether or not it would have mattered...because he had great help last year and didn't do it then. He has less help this year, but more than enough to win this series. He has to dominate....haven't seen him do that enough.

[Legends66NBA7]

What is this? Lebron did his job, if Wade would have stopped bitching and shipped in with a few more points, it would have gone much better.

LeBron didn't finish his job.

Did that second half not happen ?

He won't get more blame than Wade for Game 3, obviously. LeBron gets blame for playing like crap in that 2nd half, as well as not being aggresive enough.

LeBron was making jumpers when it was too late and the Pacers had a big enough lead and crowd behind them. LeBron's jumper has been off and he was making them with less pressure behind him.

Both him and Wade have to make a much better adjustment for Game 4.

[RedBlackAttack]

Well, blaming Lebron for 09 is absurd. You could blame him a little for 2010, but that team was just seriously outmatched.

Last year? Yep...a disgrace.

This year? Yep...just not playing well enough. He's in the heart of his prime. He has to be dominant. He has to take over. He's not doing that. The Pacers are good, but hardly great. He choked his ass off in game 2 and then no showed the 2nd half in game 3.

Can't ignore it all and it makes you question even if he had great help on the Cavs whether or not it would have mattered...because he had great help last year and didn't do it then. He has less help this year, but more than enough to win this series. He has to dominate....haven't seen him do that enough.

Well, 2010 is even more inarguable than last season. As bad as he was in the Finals, what happened in '10 against the Celtics was absurd.

You don't have to think that the Cavs were a "championship-ready" team to take James to task for the way he played in that series. For a player of James' considerable physical advantages and skillset, there is no excuse for what transpired... Including "my teammates stunk."

Btw, I'd absolutely favor the '09 and '10 Cavs over this current Heat team. The 2009 Cavs were 8-0 through the first two series and the '10 Cavs beat a pretty damn good Bulls team in 6 and had a 2-1 lead on a great Celtics team, taking them to 6 games despite a disappearing act from their leader.

Plus, those were some great rebounding teams. Against this Heat frontcourt? I wonder how many second chance opportunities Anderson Varejao ALONE would create, let alone the whole team.

We'll see what happens in Game 4, but this Heat team just doesn't look very good. At all. They've been playing easily the worst basketball of any team left in the playoffs so far this round.


All of that said, I still have a feeling that they will win this series. I think Indy is a season too young and won't be able to close this thing out. I hope I'm wrong.

[DMAVS41]

Well, 2010 is even more inarguable than last season. As bad as he was in the Finals, what happened in '10 against the Celtics was absurd.

You don't have to think that the Cavs were a "championship-ready" team to take James to task for the way he played in that series. For a player of James' considerable physical advantages and skillset, there is no excuse for what transpired... Including "my teammates stunk."

Btw, I'd absolutely favor the '09 and '10 Cavs over this current Heat team. The 2009 Cavs were 8-0 through the first two series and the '10 Cavs beat a pretty damn good Bulls team in 6 and had a 2-1 lead on a great Celtics team, taking them to 6 games despite a disappearing act from their leader.

Plus, those were some great rebounding teams. Against this Heat frontcourt? I wonder how many second chance opportunities Anderson Varejao ALONE would create, let alone the whole team.

We'll see what happens in Game 4, but this Heat team just doesn't look very good. At all. They've been playing easily the worst basketball of any team left in the playoffs so far this round.


All of that said, I still have a feeling that they will win this series. I think Indy is a season too young and won't be able to close this thing out. I hope I'm wrong.

Well. I never took the 2010 Cavs seriously. I picked the Celtics in 6 on here and called that. So I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not defending Lebron for his play in that series, but I can at least see why it happened. His teammates were awful on both ends for most of the series and the Celtics played great defense.

Well of course the 09 and 10 Cavs are currently better than the Heat without Bosh. I don't think that is making a bold statement. Give them a healthy Bosh? No way. Heat would beat them in a playoff series no doubt.

[RedBlackAttack]

but I can at least see why it happened. His teammates were awful on both ends for most of the series and the Celtics played great defense.
I'm sorry, but that is a cop-out. It wasn't that he was trying like hell and attacking that great defense relentlessly (like he did in '08 despite a pretty bad individual series). He looked disinterested and out of it... Even when the Cavs led the series 2-1 and looked to be in the driver's seat.

I had a similar discussion with Indian Guy the other day on this topic.

First of all, people forget that the Cavs handed out the worst beating in Celtics home playoff history in Game 3. They were clicking on all cylinders and Boston looked totally overmatched.

The curious play started in Game 4 for James, but Game 5 was really the coup de grasse. You can explain away one no-show as maybe just an off-night, mentally and physically. But, with basically the series on the line, it was one of the more perplexing individual performances I have any seen by any athlete in any sport.


Cavs were up 23-20 at the end of the first quarter. Shaq had 7 points and was dominating the paint early on. James was a head-scratching 0-for-2 from the floor, didn't attack the hoop one time and had 0 points.

Cavs trailed just 50-44 at half. James still hadn't made a single shot. He was a completely confusing 0-for-4 at half of a game that was still completely within grasp. He was the only Cavaliers starter who hadn't made a field goal.

The first five minutes of the third quarter, when everyone expected James to finally start getting involved in the offense, is when the game really started to get out-of-hand. It wasn't until there was 6:15 to play in the third quarter and the score was 65-50 that James made his first basket of the game.

Had James begun the third quarter with a semblance of urgency, that game was completely within reach. It was one of the most confusing performances I have ever seen by any athlete in any sport.

It looked like he didn't want to be out there from the opening tip until the final buzzer. Saying that the Celtics had it wrapped up from the start is just disingenuous.

There came a point when the Cavs, after having stayed close for over a half, needed their superstar to step forward and start playing like the MVP or playing like he cared. It never happened. I'll never understand why.

The Celtics were a better team than the Cavs in 2010. I would be the first to say it... loudly. In fact, I think that they were the best team in the league during those playoffs and it was only a massive let-down in the second half of Game 7 against the Lakers that prevented them from winning the ring. Whoever had homecourt in that series was going to win and the Lakers had a really great team.

The Celtics were nasty during that run in the 2010 playoffs.

None of that excuses what we saw in that Cavs-Celtics series.


To not include this in the perplexing story of James over the last few years wouldn't make sense, regardless of who was on his team... Unless you are saying that a guy shouldn't try unless his team is ludicrously stacked with talent. I don't subscribe to that belief.

[DMAVS41]

I'm sorry, but that is a cop-out. It wasn't that he was trying like hell and attacking that great defense relentlessly (like he did in '08 despite a pretty bad individual series). He looked disinterested and out of it... Even when the Cavs led the series 2-1 and looked to be in the driver's seat.

I had a similar discussion with Indian Guy the other day on this topic.

First of all, people forget that the Cavs handed out the worst beating in Celtics home playoff history in Game 3. They were clicking on all cylinders and Boston looked totally overmatched.

The curious play started in Game 4 for James, but Game 5 was really the coup de grasse. With basically the series on the line, it was one of the more perplexing individual performances I have any seen by any athlete in any sport.


Cavs were up 23-20 at the end of the first quarter. Shaq had 7 points and was dominating the paint early on. James was a head-scratching 0-for-2 from the floor, didn't attack the hoop one time and had 0 points.

Cavs trailed just 50-44 at half. James still hadn't made a single shot. He was a completely confusing 0-for-4 at half of a game that was still completely within grasp. He was the only Cavaliers starter who hadn't made a field goal.

The first five minutes of the third quarter, when everyone expected James to finally start getting involved in the offense, is when the game really started to get out-of-hand. It wasn't until there was 6:15 to play in the third quarter and the score was 65-50 that James made his first basket of the game.

Had James begun the third quarter with a semblance of urgency, that game was completely within reach. It was one of the most confusing performances I have ever seen by any athlete in any sport.

It looked like he didn't want to be out there from the opening tip until the final buzzer. Saying that the Celtics had it wrapped up from the start is just disingenuous.

There came a point when the Cavs, after having stayed close for over a half, needed their superstar to step forward and start playing like the MVP or playing like he cared. It never happened. I'll never understand why.


To not include this in the perplexing story of James over the last few years wouldn't make sense, regardless of who was on his team.

But i'm not doing that. I do include it. I have just seen that happen to countless star players when its clear that the help just isn't good enough. Game 5 was of course terrible...I would never have any issue with someone saying that. I've said it repeatedly myself.

We just view that team differently. I don't mean to say "told you so", but I'm not going to apologize for knowing that series was going to be over in 6 before hand. It was quite clear to me no matter what Lebron was going to do. The Celtics were just simply much better and Mo / Jamison had no prayer whatsoever to stop Rondo and KG.

In fairness, I also think you should mention how inept Pierce was against Lebron for most of that series...especially early on. You have to give him some credit for shutting Pierce down.

They were going to lose regardless...just didn't have the team to win. Just like the Orlando series to an extent. Lebron was fantastic and they still lost in 6.

So I'll say it again. Its absurd to blame Lebron for 09. Fine to blame him a little for 10...although his team sucked horribly (especially on defense) and the Celtics were a nightmare matchup for a one man team. 11...one of the worst, if not the worst, performances in the finals by a star player ever. This year....good, but not great. And it takes "great" to win unless you have a dominant team or luck out with weaker competition.

I just can't go as far as you do in 10 because I saw it coming. You didn't...so obviously you think of it differently than I do.

[Heavincent]

Game 5 of that Celtics series in 2010 was one of the most bizarre no shows I've ever seen from a superstar. Lebron was just standing on the perimeter doing nothing :wtf: It was pretty perplexing. To this day, I don't understand that game at all. Why did he look so disinterested in what was perhaps the biggest game of his career?

[chips93]

They were going to lose regardless...just didn't have the team to win. Just like the Orlando series to an extent. Lebron was fantastic and they still lost in 6.

i really dont think thats true. like RBA said, in game 3 the cavs absolutely housed the celtics, in the garden. it was over at halftime, lebron was drilling jumpers, and had at least 35

when lebron was engaged, and playing up to the level that he had been playing at for the post season up to that point, the cavs could definitely hang with the celtics. maybe the celtics were just the better team, but the cavs weren't outclassed.


I just can't go as far as you do in 10 because I saw it coming. You didn't...so obviously you think of it differently than I do.

but the cavs lost in 6, despite no-shows in two games from bron, theres no way you saw that coming, so if lebron played to his potential, surely they would have fared much better

no offense, but you were wrong in evaluating the cavs, its just lebron, and thus the cavs, underperformed, and met your inaccurate evaluation . . . if that makes any sense

[DMAVS41]

i really dont think thats true. like RBA said, in game 3 the cavs absolutely housed the celtics, in the garden. it was over at halftime, lebron was drilling jumpers, and had at least 35

when lebron was engaged, and playing up to the level that he had been playing at for the post season up to that point, the cavs could definitely hang with the celtics. maybe the celtics were just the better team, but the cavs weren't outclassed.



but the cavs lost in 6, despite no-shows in two games from bron, theres no way you saw that coming, so if lebron played to his potential, surely they would have fared much better

no offense, but you were wrong in evaluating the cavs, its just lebron, and thus the cavs, underperformed, and met your inaccurate evaluation . . . if that makes any sense

And no offense, but your expectations for Lebron...on essentially a one man team playing a defense like the Celtics aren't realistic.

You act like I'm saying that the Cavs just had no shot at winning. You can never say that of course. I can't see the future. I'm talking in realistic terms.

Thought the same thing in 09. Was that on Lebron as well? And guess what. The 09 Cavs were better than the 10 Cavs and the 10 Celtics were better than the 09 Magic.

But again. I saw it coming. Almost nobody else here did. So of course we are going to view it differently.

I'll just say I don't think you have very realistic expectations for a player if you think game 3 is indicative of how games normally go in the playoffs against a really good defensive team without much help.

Just kind of seems like you are using Lebron's greatness against him.

Think about your expectations. Dominate offensively. Score around 30 a game. Get 7 or so boards. 7 or so assists. And shut down Pierce defensively. I don't think 1 player can realistically do that against the caliber of team the 10 Celtics were. Which is why I don't think that was nearly as bad as the finals last year.

[tpols]

And no offense, but your expectations for Lebron...on essentially a one man team playing a defense like the Celtics aren't realistic.

You act like I'm saying that the Cavs just had no shot at winning. You can never say that of course. I can't see the future. I'm talking in realistic terms.

Thought the same thing in 09. Was that on Lebron as well? And guess what. The 09 Cavs were better than the 10 Cavs and the 10 Celtics were better than the 09 Magic.

But again. I saw it coming. Almost nobody else here did. So of course we are going to view it differently.

I'll just say I don't think you have very realistic expectations for a player if you think game 3 is indicative of how games normally go in the playoffs against a really good defensive team without much help.

Just kind of seems like you are using Lebron's greatness against him.
Lebron's greatness was on display the whole season.. if his level of play and motivation dropped off, which avid Cavs fans who watched the whole series are saying, then he deserves a lot of blame.

You cant just say, well the Cavs were going to lose anyways.. how do you know? They were up 2-1 before Lebron looked 'out of it' according to people who were very in tune with the team for years and were very accustom to seeing Lebron's personality and play.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron's greatness was on display the whole season.. if his level of play and motivation dropped off, which avid Cavs fans who watched the whole series are saying, then he deserves a lot of blame.

You cant just say, well the Cavs were going to lose anyways.. how do you know? They were up 2-1 before Lebron looked 'out of it' according to people who were very in tune with the team for years and were very accustom to seeing Lebron's personality and play.

But I'm not saying that though. That is the point. I think he does deserve some blame. Just not as much as they...and I guess you think.

RBA thinks 10 was worse than the finals last year.

And again. The 10 Celtics were good...perhaps great when healthy. Being great all year doesn't mean you are going to be great against a team like that.

What other players in history would you feel comfortable winning that series in place of Lebron?

The only perimeter players I could think of would be MJ and a prime Bird. And I don't think Bird could have done it really.

So I'll say it again. I'm not saying he's free of blame. I'm saying the finals last year were much worse and that you have to make at least some concession on the fact that his team did not come to play and that he was playing a very tough opponent with little help to begin with.

[pauk]

Apologist? What he said is exactly what happened........... :confusedshrug:

[chips93]

But again. I saw it coming. Almost nobody else here did. So of course we are going to view it differently.

but you didnt really. you didnt see lebron's collapse

you undervalued lebron, and the cavs, he/they proved that in the first 3 games, then lebron/the cavs collapsed, underperformed, and then they met your unfairly low expectations


I'll just say I don't think you have very realistic expectations for a player if you think game 3 is indicative of how games normally go in the playoffs against a really good defensive team without much help.

im not saying i expect him to repeat that performance each game, but when you blow out the other team, on their floor, worse than they had ever been beat in their storied history, its not unreasonable to think they should win.

i wasnt expecting a repeat, but when you house a team like the cavs win, you feel like the favorites


Think about your expectations. Dominate offensively. Score around 30 a game. Get 7 or so boards. 7 or so assists. And shut down Pierce defensively. I don't think 1 player can realistically do that against the caliber of team the 10 Celtics were. Which is why I don't think that was nearly as bad as the finals last year.

well, the tear lebron was on, it wasnt unreasonable, he was averaging 32 a game after game 3.

he was getting those numbers that you mention, and then some. so its not unreasonable to expect him to continue, or at least to not fall off like they did, so the fact that he disappeared, and the cavs still took it to 6 games, its hardly unreasonable to feel like the cavs have a great chance to win the series.

my expectations on lebron were slightly below how he had been performing up to that point.

[DMAVS41]

but you didnt really. you didnt see lebron's collapse

you undervalued lebron, and the cavs, he/they proved that in the first 3 games, then lebron/the cavs collapsed, underperformed, and then they met your unfairly low expectations



im not saying i expect him to repeat that performance each game, but when you blow out the other team, on their floor, worse than they had ever been beat in their storied history, its not unreasonable to think they should win.

i wasnt expecting a repeat, but when you house a team like the cavs win, you feel like the favorites



well, the tear lebron was on, it wasnt unreasonable, he was averaging 32 a game after game 3.

he was getting those numbers that you mention, and then some. so its not unreasonable to expect him to continue, or at least to not fall off like they did, so the fact that he disappeared, and the cavs still took it to 6 games, its hardly unreasonable to feel like the cavs have a great chance to win the series.

my expectations on lebron were slightly below how he had been performing up to that point.

Nope. You can't win a 7 game series after 3 games. I fully expected Lebron to win at least 1 game all by himself because he's a great player.

I feel like you under-rated how hard it is to win a 7 game series against a better team.

But I'm not saying Lebron played great. I thought he played well overall....good, but not great or anything. Just not nearly as bad as you given the circumstances. Its not easy to produce against a team like the Celtics with little help. Hell, look what happened to Kobe in the finals against the same team.

[chips93]

I feel like you under-rated how hard it is to win a 7 game series against a better team.

the celtics came into the playoffs playing .500 ball, and looking terrible. a lot of people picked the heat to beat them in the first round. everybody had the cavs as the better team. they had a top 7 defense and a top 7 offense, and comfortable the best record.


Its not easy to produce against a team like the Celtics with little help.

again, at the time, we were coming off a series where jamison was coming into his own, the cavs were loaded with shooters, shaq was proving a solid option down low.





you're still not answering the fact that you prediction came true off the back of lebron no-showing in two games, and you cant possibly claim to have predicted that. thats what im trying to get at

you were right because of freak circumstances

[RedBlackAttack]

I fully expected Lebron to win at least 1 game all by himself because he's a great player.

First, remind me again which game LeBron James won by himself in that series.

The Cavs won Game 1 and Game 3.

In Game 1, Mo Williams played an absolutely terrific game. He had 20 points on 8-14 from the field, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal and just 1 turnover. He was +23 for his 40 minutes of play (James was +7).

It may have been the best game that he ever had in the playoffs and he did it in an incredibly close game. He made absolutely huge plays throughout that game from start to finish.


In Game 3, the whole team was clicking (not just James).

Antawn Jamison - 20 points, 12 rebounds
Delonte West - 14 points (5-7 FG), 3 rebounds, 3 assists
Mo Williams - 12 points (4-8 FG), 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Shaq - 12 points (5-7 FG), 9 rebounds *dominated the paint defensively
Anthony Parker - 11 points (4-4 FG) *did a masterful job on Ray Allen, holding him to 2-9 from the field

So, the Cavs' five starters and 6th man ALL scored in double figures and ALL played tremendous defense, hence the Cavs shooting 63% from the field to the Celtics 42%.


I don't see how you can say that either of these games were won by James alone. There were certainly series during his years in Cleveland where that was the case. This wasn't one of them.


And, in those two inexplicable performances by James...

In Game 4, all five Cavs starters were in double-figures again. Everyone aside from Delonte shot the ball extremely well.

In Game 5, Shaq was dominant throughout the game. He had 21 points on 7-11 shooting. Anthony Parker had his best game of the playoffs.


It is so easy to say he had "no help" in retrospect and two years later when no one remembers the games. Fact is, guys stepped up for the Cavs in that series. Celtics were better, but nothing explains that disappearance. It was so inexplicable that people had to make up rumors of his mom being banged by Delonte West and a mysterious elbow injury to try and explain them away.

It was bizarre.


But I'm not saying Lebron played great. I thought he played well overall....good, but not great or anything.

He played awful in the most important games... 4 and 5. That was really the first glimpse of the guy that we saw in last year's Finals. It was the same kind of passiveness to a point of looking disinterested.

I'm sorry, but playing the way he did in those two games considering the weight of the situation cannot possibly result in a "well overall" rating for the series.

Lastly, I wanted to address this point made earlier, since I'm just catching back up...


We just view that team differently. I don't mean to say "told you so", but I'm not going to apologize for knowing that series was going to be over in 6 before hand. It was quite clear to me no matter what Lebron was going to do. The Celtics were just simply much better and Mo / Jamison had no prayer whatsoever to stop Rondo and KG.

This is an interesting post.

First, I will absolutely admit that I thought the Cavs were going to handle the Celtics in that series, but it wasn't because I thought that Cleveland team were world-beaters. It was because the Cs had absolutely limped and dragged through the previous playoffs (without KG) and they were pretty average (relatively speaking) for that whole season leading up to the playoffs. Hell, they were 3-7 in the 10 games prior to the postseason starting.

The Celtics really struggled with consistency all season long and almost everybody had written them off, myself included.

They were the 4th seed, behind Cleveland, Orlando and Atlanta. It isn't like people expected this series to be close. Very few people ANYWHERE were picking the Celtics. Again, not because the Cavs were some unbeatable force, but because they had looked very ordinary.


So, I find it interesting that you say you predicted them to beat the Cavs in 6. I'm not calling you a liar, but I don't remember that. To be fair, I don't even remember what I predicted heading into that series, if anything. It was two years ago.


Can you find a post of you predicting a Celtics win in six prior to the series starting. It's not that I don't trust you... It would have just been a bit of an anomaly at the time, since most people weren't even predicting that series to go six games (due to the Cs regressing and the Cavs presumably surging).


I will tell you that I knew literally after the first quarter of Game 1 that we had a serious problem on our hands. It was clear to me, even after we lucked out and got Game 1, that the Celtics had been playing possum all season and were a totally different team. It's easy to talk the way you are talking in retrospect, but at the time almost EVERYONE was picking the Cavs to, not just win the series, but handle the Celtics.

So, looking at it from the actual perceptions of the two teams at the time... Yeah, seeing James seemingly disinterested and entirely disengaged in the series' most important games was absolutely stunning. And it still is.

[DMAVS41]

the celtics came into the playoffs playing .500 ball, and looking terrible. a lot of people picked the heat to beat them in the first round. everybody had the cavs as the better team. they had a top 7 defense and a top 7 offense, and comfortable the best record.



again, at the time, we were coming off a series where jamison was coming into his own, the cavs were loaded with shooters, shaq was proving a solid option down low.





you're still not answering the fact that you prediction came true off the back of lebron no-showing in two games, and you cant possibly claim to have predicted that. thats what im trying to get at

you were right because of freak circumstances


you want it to be freak circumstances. i didn't see it that way at all. so...lets get this straight. i saw it coming...you didn't...but it doesn't matter because they lost on circumstances you deem "freak"

well. I don't deem them that. i expected Lebron to play better than he did...but i also expected Jamison to be the no show defender and playoff performer I know him to be. Same with Mo. I knew they couldn't stop KG and Rondo...and I knew the Celtics defense would take its toll on the Cavs.

i don't know what you want me to say. you and RBA have unreal expectations for a player. in a tough series against a great defense...you are going to have your ups and downs. you can't play great every game.

and i will repeat. i'm not saying he played great or anything. i've hammered him for game 5 etc. but comparing his 10 series with very little help to the finals last year...just can't see it.

[DMAVS41]

First, remind me again which game LeBron James won by himself in that series.

The Cavs won Game 1 and Game 3.

In Game 1, Mo Williams played an absolutely terrific game. He had 20 points on 8-14 from the field, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal and just 1 turnover. He was +23 for his 40 minutes of play (James was +7).

It may have been the best game that he ever had in the playoffs and he did it in an incredibly close game. He made absolutely huge plays throughout that game from start to finish.


In Game 3, the whole team was clicking (not just James).

Antawn Jamison - 20 points, 12 rebounds
Delonte West - 14 points (5-7 FG), 3 rebounds, 3 assists
Mo Williams - 12 points (4-8 FG), 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Shaq - 12 points (5-7 FG), 9 rebounds *dominated the paint defensively
Anthony Parker - 11 points (4-4 FG) *did a masterful job on Ray Allen, holding him to 2-9 from the field

So, the Cavs' five starters and 6th man ALL scored in double figures and ALL played tremendous defense, hence the Cavs shooting 63% from the field to the Celtics 42%.


I don't see how you can say that either of these games were won by James alone. There were certainly series during his years in Cleveland where that was the case. This wasn't one of them.



He played awful in the most important games... 4 and 5. That was really the first glimpse of the guy that we saw in last year's Finals. It was the same kind of passiveness to a point of looking disinterested.

I'm sorry, but playing the way he did in those two games considering the weight of the situation cannot possibly result in a "well overall" rating for the series.

Lastly, I wanted to address this point made earlier, since I'm just catching back up...



This is an interesting post.

First, I will absolutely admit that I thought the Cavs were going to handle the Celtics in that series, but it wasn't because I thought that Cleveland team were world-beaters. It was because the Cs had absolutely limped and dragged through the previous playoffs (without KG) and they were pretty average (relatively speaking) for that whole season leading up to the playoffs. Hell, they were 3-7 in the 10 games prior to the postseason starting.

The Celtics really struggled with consistency all season long and almost everybody had written them off, myself included.

They were the 4th seed, behind Cleveland, Orlando and Atlanta. It isn't like people expected this series to be close. Very few people ANYWHERE were picking the Celtics. Again, not because the Cavs were some unbeatable force, but because they had looked very ordinary.


So, I find it interesting that you say you predicted them to beat the Cavs in 6. I'm not calling you a liar, but I don't remember that. To be fair, I don't even remember what I predicted heading into that series, if anything. It was two years ago.


Can you find a post of you predicting a Celtics win in six prior to the series starting. It's not that I don't trust you... It would have just been a bit of an anomaly at the time, since most people weren't even predicting that series to go six games (due to the Cs regressing and the Cavs presumably surging).


I will tell you that I knew literally after the first quarter of Game 1 that we had a serious problem on our hands. It was clear to me, even after we lucked out and got Game 1, that the Celtics had been playing possum all season and were a totally different team. It's easy to talk the way you are talking in retrospect, but at the time almost EVERYONE was picking the Cavs to, not just win the series, but handle the Celtics.

So, looking at it from the actual perceptions of the two teams at the time... Yeah, seeing James seemingly disinterested and entirely disengaged in the series' most important games was absolutely stunning. And it still is.

And?

You seem to be arguing with a ghost. I never claimed Lebron is free from blame. I simply don't agree to the extent you do. And I feel like I'm being far more objective. I had nothing invested in the series at all. I called the loss before it started. Saw it coming.

Played out very similarly to how I thought it would. As I said before, I thought Lebron would play better. No doubt. But how much better...hard to say.

I'll ask again. What other perimeter players in NBA history do you feel confident in the Cavs winning that series?

Sometimes players struggle for a reason. Sometimes its a bad matchup...sometimes it wears a single player down to have to do virtually everything for a team...all while shutting down Pierce

Pierce?

5 of 17
4 of 10
4 of 15
3 of 8
9 of 21
4 of 13

Do you give him any credit for that? Because I don't see you doing that at all.

But I'm holding Lebron to the same superstar standards I do for a Kobe or Dirk or Wade or Durant now...etc. It seems to me that you are holding him to a higher standard. Which I have no problem with...because the only way you can get to the 10 series being worse than the finals last year is if you hold 10 Lebron to extremely high standards.

[RedBlackAttack]

And?

You seem to be arguing with a ghost. I never claimed Lebron is free from blame. I simply don't agree to the extent you do. And I feel like I'm being far more objective. I had nothing invested in the series at all. I called the loss before it started. Saw it coming.

Played out very similarly to how I thought it would. As I said before, I thought Lebron would play better. No doubt. But how much better...hard to say.

I'll ask again. What other perimeter players in NBA history do you feel confident in the Cavs winning that series?

Sometimes players struggle for a reason. Sometimes its a bad matchup...sometimes it wears a single player down to have to do virtually everything for a team...all while shutting down Pierce

Pierce?

5 of 17
4 of 10
4 of 15
3 of 8
9 of 21
4 of 13

Do you give him any credit for that? Because I don't see you doing that at all.

But I'm holding Lebron to the same superstar standards I do for a Kobe or Dirk or Wade or Durant now...etc. It seems to me that you are holding him to a higher standard. Which I have no problem with...because the only way you can get to the 10 series being worse than the finals last year is if you hold 10 Lebron to extremely high standards.

I give James credit for doing a good defensive job on Pierce as he almost always does, just as I give Parker credit for holding down Ray Allen for the majority of the series.

6-14
8-15
2-9
8-21
8-13
2-8


As for his offensive passiveness in the most important games... I know the difference between a guy being stymied offensively but still going out on his shield and what I saw in that series. What you saw in the Finals last year with James standing in the corner watching the action? That is what he was doing and it is inexplicable.

I am absolutely NOT holding him to a higher standard. First, Pierce's best game of that series was Game 5, which was also the most confusing performance from James on the offensive end. Pierce had 21 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals and 1 turnover. Secondly, if James was just going to be a good defensive player in the two most important games of the year against a team like that, how is that holding him to ANY kind of superstar standards?

Like I pointed out above, he had teammates step up and play well... Good enough to make those games more competitive, certainly, had he been the least bit aggressive in any way, shape or form.


Again, it is so easy to play revisionist history with this kind of stuff. Perceptions so quickly change that people forget the actual dialogue that was taking place at the time.

One thing that most people haven't forgotten, however, is LeBron's totally confusing seeming lack of interest in Games 4 and 5. In the months following, I actually thought that maybe he had made his mind up earlier in the year that he was going to leave and he made a conscious decision that there was really no reason to leave everything he had out there when the going started to get really tough... Because, hey, he had one foot out the door anyway.

But, my mind was changed when I saw the same exact demeanor during the Finals last year. There is just something about James that makes games like that completely plausible. I still can't explain what causes it, but it has now become reoccurring in certain situations (Boston '10 and Dallas '11 being the most extreme examples).


Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a guy just playing poorly because an opponent is dialed in defensively or a guy's game just not being there for a game or series. That was the case with James for the majority of the '08 series between the Cavs and Celtics.

Save for the final game where he exploded, he was really struggling with his game, especially his shooting and turnovers. But, he was leaving everything out there and it was obvious to everyone who watched.

What happened in '10 was wholly different.



But, aside from all that and as a direct commentary to your earlier posts, he absolutely didn't win a game by himself and I'm still interested to see your actual prediction of a Celtics win in six prior to that series. Again, not that I'm calling you a liar, but that would have been completely going against the grain and it would have been a hell of a call.

I went back and read some threads leading up to and during that series.

Posters (with no agenda) were completely scoffing at the idea of the Cs having any chance... And that only ramped up after Game 3, when the Cavs gave the Cs their worst home playoff loss ever (in a total TEAM win).

Very few people were giving the Celtics any chance in that series.

[chazzy]

Just chiming in because I remember it, here's dmavs calling Celtics in 6
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4291238&postcount=63

[RedBlackAttack]

Just chiming in because I remember it, here's dmavs calling Celtics in 6
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4291238&postcount=63
Well, that's a hell of a good call. Hats off to him. But, he and bdreason were in the extreme minority.

Going back and reading the Game Threads were a trip... Especially the one for Game 3. It is so interesting how perceptions of teams change with time. I'm mostly referring to that Celtics team. Heading into that 2010 playoff series, the majority of this board had them dead to rights.

Now, two years later, they are right back in the mix and it feels like there was never a lull.

EDIT: Oh, and shall I assume that was his prediction before the series even though that particular post (and thread) wasn't started until after the Celtics had won a game in Cleveland and things were already looking rough?

[DMAVS41]

I give James credit for doing a good defensive job on Pierce as he almost always does, just as I give Parker credit for holding down Ray Allen for the majority of the series.

6-14
8-15
2-9
8-21
8-13
2-8


As for his offensive passiveness in the most important games... I know the difference between a guy being stymied offensively but still going out on his shield and what I saw in that series. What you saw in the Finals last year with James standing in the corner watching the action? That is what he was doing and it is inexplicable.

I am absolutely NOT holding him to a higher standard. First, Pierce's best game of that series was Game 5, the most confusing performance from James on the offensive end. Pierce had 21 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals and 1 turnover. Secondly, if James was just going to be a good defensive player in the two most important games of the year against a team like that, how is that holding him to ANY kind of superstar standards?

Like I pointed out above, he had teammates step up and play well... Good enough to make those games more competitive, certainly, had he been the least bit aggressive in any way, shape or form.


Again, it is so easy to play revisionist history with this kind of stuff. Perceptions so quickly change that people forget the actual dialogue that was taking place at the time.

One thing that most people haven't forgotten, however, is LeBron's totally confusing seeming lack of interest in Games 4 and 5. In the months following, I actually thought that maybe he had made his mind up earlier in the year that he was going to leave and he made a conscious decision that there was really no reason to leave everything he had out there when the going started to get really tough.

But, my mind was changed when I saw the same exact demeanor during the Finals last year. There is just something about James that makes games like that completely plausible. I still can't explain what causes it, but is has now become reoccurring in certain situations (Boston '10 and Dallas '11 being the most extreme examples).


Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a guy just playing poorly because an opponent is dialed in defensively or a guy's game just not being there for a game or series. That was the case with James for the majority of the '08 series between the Cavs and Celtics.

Save for the final game where he exploded, he was really struggling with his game, especially his shooting and turnovers. But, he was leaving everything out there and it was obvious to everyone who watched.

What happened in '10 was wholly different.



But, aside from all that and as a direct commentary to your earlier posts, he absolutely didn't win a game by himself and I'm still interested to see your actual prediction of a Celtics win in six prior to that series. I actually went back and read some threads leading up to and during that series.

Posters (with no agenda) were completely scoffing at the idea of the Cs having any chance... And that only ramped up after Game 3, when the Cavs gave the Cs their worst home playoff loss ever (in a total TEAM win).

Very few people were giving the Celtics any chance in that series.

You seem to be arguing a different...albeit valid point. I agree with it.

So let me make this clear. I am not saying Lebron played at a great level in 10 against the Celtics. I said I expected him to play better. I said he deserves blame for what happened. I have called game 5 absolutely strange and of course a poor performance.

However, I also look at it from the point of view of how much that team relied on Lebron and how inept Jamison and Mo are on defense and offense at times. So I factor in some of the reasons why he played the way he did....I guess you don't. I feel like the two can't be separated.

I really can't be more clear. I was on here saying the Cavs were vastly over-rated leading up to the playoffs. I'm not giving Lebron a complete pass or anything either.

I actually agree with most of your analysis as it mirrors a lot of what I think and have said.

Where you lose me is claiming that 10 was worse than 11. I can't get behind that at all. Not only did Lebron have a far better team around him, but his teammates actually produced and defended.

It seems people have already forgotten just how bad he was in 11. He was not only terrible offensively, but defensively as well. He missed rotations, was a step slow, and gambled more than he usually does.

In 10 I just thought he was overwhelmed having to yet again carry a team all by himself. Nobody else to throw the ball to...to get a bucket. Nobody there to pick up the slack when he's struggling. And I think that took its toll and was the cause of some of his poor play.

I will always remember thinking the following going into that series:

That the 10 Cavs should be better, but the 09 Cavs were the team I'd take. And that the 09 Magic weren't as good as the 10 Celtics. So I could never get behind the Cavs getting through Boston....certainly not after the first couple games. It was over imo after I saw game 1 honestly....like you said.

I'll put a number on this to make it more clear. If I had to rate each performance based on MVP level standards.

2010 would rate around a 5 or so.

2011 would rate around a 2 or so.

[RedBlackAttack]

You seem to be arguing a different...albeit valid point. I agree with it.

So let me make this clear. I am not saying Lebron played at a great level in 10 against the Celtics. I said I expected him to play better. I said he deserves blame for what happened. I have called game 5 absolutely strange and of course a poor performance.

However, I also look at it from the point of view of how much that team relied on Lebron and how inept Jamison and Mo are on defense and offense at times. So I factor in some of the reasons why he played the way he did....I guess you don't. I feel like the two can't be separated.

I really can't be more clear. I was on here saying the Cavs were vastly over-rated leading up to the playoffs. I'm not giving Lebron a complete pass or anything either.

I actually agree with most of your analysis as it mirrors a lot of what I think and have said.

Where you lose me is claiming that 10 was worse than 11. I can't get behind that at all. Not only did Lebron have a far better team around him, but his teammates actually produced and defended.

It seems people have already forgotten just how bad he was in 11. He was not only terrible offensively, but defensively as well. He missed rotations, was a step slow, and gambled more than he usually does.

In 10 I just thought he was overwhelmed having to yet again carry a team all by himself. Nobody else to throw the ball to...to get a bucket. Nobody there to pick up the slack when he's struggling. And I think that took its toll and was the cause of some of his poor play.

I will always remember thinking the following going into that series:

That the 10 Cavs should be better, but the 09 Cavs were the team I'd take. And that the 09 Magic weren't as good as the 10 Celtics. So I could never get behind the Cavs getting through Boston....certainly not after the first couple games. It was over imo after I saw game 1 honestly....like you said.

I'll put a number on this to make it more clear. If I had to rate each performance based on MVP level standards.

2010 would rate around a 5 or so.

2011 would rate around a 2 or so.

Well, I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing at this point. The nuances of our arguments are just different.


Yes, James was awful in the Finals last year. I was almost embarrassed for him (not really, but you get the point). It was that bad.

But, I guess what I'm saying is that the seeds of what we saw in that series first began to sprout in Game 4 and 5 against the Celtics in '10. And, I don't really think his teammates have anything to do with it... For me, anyway.

A guy either plays like he really cares or he doesn't. In those two games especially, it honestly looked like he was going through the motions which was obviously maddening to someone like me who has been waiting 30+ years for a championship to be brought to this city.

Especially after the entire team had played so well in Game 3 and seemed to be clicking on all cylinders, to see "passive" LeBron standing in the corner with no aggressiveness or assertiveness... I just couldn't believe my eyes.

I had seen him have bad playoff series before, obviously. I had never seen him with that kind of demeanor and approach.

And, it was the same thing I saw last year in the Finals EXCEPT for a few things...

1. Having Dwyane Wade on the floor with him literally giving every ounce of sweat that he had on every possession provided such a stark contrast to James' approach in that series, it made it look even worse for the supposed best player in the world.

2. The stage itself was obviously so much bigger and the expectations with Wade, James and Bosh teaming up were so much higher than anything he ever experienced in Cleveland. Also, that was a Mavs team that many people predicted to lose in the first round against Portland. Then, after Game 1... it appeared to be an utter mismatch.

3. People really don't like James these days and that was not the case, by and large, in 2010... And I think it weighed on him heavily (still does). Deep down, he wants to be loved and that is going to be a much more difficult feat than winning a title.

4. The Mavs had the kind of offense that could take it to James' defense, unlike the Celtics. James almost always plays great defense on Pierce. Like in boxing, styles make fights and James' size, strength and athleticism are the perfect counter to Pierce's offensive skillset. On the other hand, having to defend a funky, unique guy like Marion with such an odd game and Jet, who will absolutely fill it up when he gets going and is small and quick enough to get away from James. There was no one on that Mavs team that he really matched up well against.


All of that combined to make for an even more astounding collapse by James. Still, I'm often perplexed by the way he approached those two games in that '10 series. I will never totally understand what the hell he must have been thinking. So odd.

[DMAVS41]

Well, I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing at this point. The nuances of our arguments are just different.


Yes, James was awful in the Finals last year. I was almost embarrassed for him (not really, but you get the point). It was that bad.

But, I guess what I'm saying is that the seeds of what we saw in that series first began to sprout in Game 4 and 5 against the Celtics in '10. And, I don't really think his teammates have anything to do with it... For me, anyway.

A guy either plays like he really cares or he doesn't. In those two games especially, it honestly looked like he was going through the motions which was obviously maddening to someone like me who has been waiting 30+ years for a championship to be brought to this city.

Especially after the entire team had played so well in Game 3 and seemed to be clicking on all cylinders, to see "passive" LeBron standing in the corner with no aggressiveness or assertiveness... I just couldn't believe my eyes.

I had seen him have bad playoff series before, obviously. I had never seen him with that kind of demeanor and approach.

And, it was the same thing I saw last year in the Finals EXCEPT for a few things...

1. Having Dwyane Wade on the floor with him literally giving every ounce of sweat that he had on every possession provided such a stark contrast to James' approach in that series, it made it look even worse for the supposed best player in the world.

2. The stage itself was obviously so much bigger and the expectations with Wade, James and Bosh teaming up were so much higher than anything he ever experienced in Cleveland. Also, that was a Mavs team that many people predicted to lose in the first round against Portland. Then, after Game 1... it appeared to be an utter mismatch.

3. People really don't like James these days and that was not the case, by and large, in 2010... And I think it weighed on him heavily (still does). Deep down, he wants to be loved and that is going to be a much more difficult feat than winning a title.

4. The Mavs had the kind of offense that could take it to James' defense, unlike the Celtics. James almost always plays great defense on Pierce. Like in boxing, styles make fights and James' size, strength and athleticism are the perfect counter to Pierce's offensive skillset. On the other hand, having to defend a funky, unique guy like Marion with such an odd game and Jet, who will absolutely fill it up when he gets going and is small and quick enough to get away from James. There was no one on that Mavs team that he really matched up well against.


All of that combined to make for an even more astounding collapse by James. Still, I'm often perplexed by the way he approached those two games in that '10 series. I will never totally understand what the hell he must have been thinking. So odd.

Absolutely. Totally agree.

At the time I was more willing to give Lebron a pass because I could see the reasons for it. Now, with the new evidence of the 11 finals, you have to question whether or not Lebron can consistently perform well enough to lead a team to a title and beat elite competition.

I question that for a lot of perimeter players outside of really MJ, Magic, and Bird. I guess I should throw Kobe into that list as well, but I've just never been as impressed with him as those other guys.

But back on point. I totally agree and I have commented before on here that I now view the 10 series differently. I hate letting the present impact the past, but how can you not do it in this case?

[coin24]

Anyone who watched the '10 playoffs knows LeBron just gave up. I couldnt believe it at the time. Had he played up to his usual standards they could have taken that series..

Anyone that says he didnt have help is full of shit. That team was built around him, but remember they are "role players". He is supposely a superstar and should actually step up once in a while..

[sbw19]

http://www.abload.de/img/lb1x8lv9.png


http://www.abload.de/img/lb2mtxsi.png



Hollinger, Mr. By the Numbers, fails to see (or chooses to ignore) a very predicable and obvious pattern here: when LeBron is put at a disadvantage, or when the stakes are very high, his aggression, driving to the basket, getting to the FT line & converting his FTs, putting pressure on opposing D, all of those things are greatly diminished.

Of course all of that doesn't detract from his MVP status, he's 3X MVP winner and rightly so, it just validates that MVP trophies mean very little in the grand scheme of things if you consistently don't perform up to par when your team needs you most to be MVP-like.

[Extempo]

Did he write an article after Lebron's EPIC chokejob in game 2 (love the Indiana player who did the choke sign, no one respects him lol)...when he missed the two big FTs and seemed scared to shoot the ball? Can't blame teammates there. It is upon the leader to grow a pair and lead the way. If he's the MVP, he needs to do more...he can't expect to put up empty stats when the game doesn't matter and then expect teammates to carry him when it does matter. What a poser.

[embersyc]

The supporting cast isn't even bad, in fact, I'll keep Tayshaun Prince, Greg Monroe, and Rodney Stuckey and trade the rest of my team straight up for the Heat's supporting cast.

[pauk]

Dmavs41 & Redblackattack stiring the pot! Like it :D

[amfirst]

Who cares, Kobe gets blamed for loses, so should LeBron. As a leader of the team, if ur team fails it's on ur hands no matter what.

[pauk]

Who cares, Kobe gets blamed for loses, so should LeBron. As a leader of the team, if ur team fails it's on ur hands no matter what.

Depends on the context really... its no secret im no big fan of Kobe, but i would never blame a loss on him when he actually produces but Bynum is injured and Pau Gasol drops only 5 points or misses his last 4 shots in the last seconds, turns it over and then makes a technical foul to give the opponents a lead with 10 seconds to go and while his bench/roleplayers were not able to knock any open shots whatsoever that night....

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron is an overhyped ESPN stat padding machine. He gets exposed every year in the playoffs and the dude still tries to stat pad in the playoffs. The guy didnt deserve the MVP for stat padding in the season. Durant got robbed this year.

[coin24]

Depends on the context really... its no secret im no big fan of Kobe, but i would never blame a loss on him when he actually produces but Bynum is injured and Pau Gasol drops only 5 points or misses his last 4 shots in the last seconds, turns it over and then makes a technical foul to give the opponents a lead with 10 seconds to go and while his bench/roleplayers were not able to knock any open shots whatsoever that night....

The difference is that LeBron just basically quit at halftime in game 3...
This is why people rate him so poorly, doesnt mater if the minimm contract guys on the team cant shoot for shit, or Bosh is injured, or Wade is playing like crap.
LeBron shouldnt give up like that. The game was close and he was nowhere to be found. Mario Chalmers didnt quit, he put in 100% every posession, unfortunately LeBron only scored 2 points in the 3rd:facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

RedBlackAttack, Pauk, and DMavs are the only good posters in this entire thread.

Do the rest of you realize you cannot argue that he had no production AND that he statpadded and other such abject idiocy?

Its a chore to read through pages of laughable posts to get to a few decent posts.

[Heavincent]

Its a chore to read through pages of laughable posts to get to a few decent posts.

Then leave.

[Cladyclad]

Man its so disrepectful how those 08-10 Cavs get disrespected by haters and stans of Lebron. Its disgusting to me. The Cavs were a team in the truest form led by arguably the best player in the Nba. Yea they didnt have prolific scorers besides Bron. But man they played hard. Didnt make mistakes. They fought for everything. They were one the best rebounding, defensive,3pt, & ball control teams in the Nba. And this was a time when Bron wasnt as good ad he is now on D. And thats how the Cavs won thru teamwork.


Ima ask everyone. Is a healthy Heat team better than those Cavs teams?

Most would say yes, but which team had a better winning pct?

Who won the East reg season the last two years prior to Lebron going to Mia?

Giv those Cavs players and Mike Brown their respect.

[Simple Jack]

Man its so disrepectful how those 08-10 Cavs get disrespected by haters and stans of Lebron. Its disgusting to me. The Cavs were a team in the truest form led by arguably the best player in the Nba. Yea they didnt have prolific scorers besides Bron. But man they played hard. Didnt make mistakes. They fought for everything. They were one the best rebounding, defensive,3pt, & ball control teams in the Nba. And this was a time when Bron wasnt as good ad he is now on D. And thats how the Cavs won thru teamwork.


Ima ask everyone. Is a healthy Heat team better than those Cavs teams?

Most would say yes, but which team had a better winning pct?

Who won the East reg season the last two years prior to Lebron going to Mia?

Giv those Cavs players and Mike Brown their respect.

Miami last year made the finals right away; something LeBron wasn't even approaching with those 60+ win teams and only could get to once, after an epic performance against the Pistons.

Acting like basketball is that black and white is laughable. Bron was also 2nd in DPOY voting one of those years iirc. Comparing those Cavalier teams to other historical ones winning at that high of a % becomes a complete joke.

[Cladyclad]

Miami last year made the finals right away; something LeBron wasn't even approaching with those 60+ win teams and only could get to once, after an epic performance against the Pistons.

Acting like basketball is that black and white is laughable. Bron was also 2nd in DPOY voting one of those years iirc. Comparing those Cavalier teams to other historical ones winning at that high of a % becomes a complete joke.


Im not comparing the Cavs to historic teams. Cavs had a chance two years in a row. in 4 of those losses over those two playoff series Lebron was not himself at all. Not to say if he would have played better they would hav won. He just seemed like he was not into it. As u pretty much stated u cant look at everything in black in white. Bron may hav finished 2nd in dpoy, but Bron in Mia is a far better defender than Bron was as a Cav.Thats why i always stick to this quote of his "i dont want to have the pressure of having to score 30 every night". Just like if Bron would hav played any way close to the way he played in last year reg season. Mia would be defending champs.

[Simple Jack]

Im not comparing the Cavs to historic teams. Cavs had a chance two years in a row. in 4 of those losses over those two playoff series Lebron was not himself at all. Not to say if he would have played better they would hav won. He just seemed like he was not into it. As u pretty much stated u cant look at everything in black in white. Bron may hav finished 2nd in dpoy, but Bron in Mia is a far better defender than Bron was as a Cav.Thats why i always stick to this quote of his "i dont want to have the pressure of having to score 30 every night". Just like if Bron would hav played any way close to the way he played in last year reg season. Mia would be defending champs.

Which 4 games are you referring to?

And my statement about LeBron being 2nd in DPOY has nothing to do with being black and white. I'm not saying Bron was better defensively than he was now but he was still a defensive force on those Cavalier teams, specifically the 60+ win teams.

You should compare them to historical teams; to really see what LeBron was able to accomplish that other people weren't able to in the past...with Mo Williams as his 2nd option on offense and an apparently inept coach.

[Roundball_Rock]

to be fair, Wade had 5 f-ing points.

how are you supposed to win when your second best scorer doesn't score and your third best player (and probably more important of a loss than Wade sucking due lack of bigs) is out with injury?

Chalmers stepped up with 25 so the second scorer production was there.


Miami's a 3-man team

This is what he signed up for...a top-heavy team. Despite the unbalanced roster it was Lebron who declared it would be easy and they would win 8 rings. :lol

The "help" argument is to an extent a copout. You can cherry pick examples from practically every game. Not all of a team's key players are going to play well on a given night.

The fact is we have been hearing this same story from Lebron partisans since 2007. At some point the excuses have to be replaced with results. Lebron has Wade, a former MVP candidate, and apparently can't win. How much more help does he need? Howard at center, Rose as PG, and Dirk at PF?

Lebron is young--but he also is about halfway through his career. He still has time to go down as a top-tier legend but he is increasingly looking like a souped modern-day Karl Malone...

[Cladyclad]

Which 4 games are you referring to?

And my statement about LeBron being 2nd in DPOY has nothing to do with being black and white. I'm not saying Bron was better defensively than he was now but he was still a defensive force on those Cavalier teams, specifically the 60+ win teams.

You should compare them to historical teams; to really see what LeBron was able to accomplish that other people weren't able to in the past...with Mo Williams as his 2nd option on offense and an apparently inept coach.

Iverson finals team was just as worst than Bron's finals team. They both benefited from their weak conference.

Lebron 37 pts combined in game 4&5 against the C's

Orl game 5 nuff said...

I have no problem if someone has a bad game like missing alot of shots. But Bron was not agressive at all. He was like a different player.

[Simple Jack]

Iverson finals team was just as worst than Bron's finals team. They both benefited from their weak conference.

Lebron 37 pts combined in game 4&5 against the C's

Orl game 5 nuff said...

I have no problem if someone has a bad game like missing alot of shots. But Bron was not agressive at all. He was like a different player.

So many things wrong with your post.

Orlando game 5 LeBron had 37-14-12 and scored or assisted on 29 straight points (that number might be a bit off but it's close) in the 4th quarter with his team trailing by one.

Iverson had a more talented team. He had the DPOY and 6th man of the year on his team. That's taken a bit out of context as Iverson was shouldering most of the scoring load on that team, if not all at times, but that team was certainly more talented than LeBron's Cleveland team that he took to the finals.


On a side note, how much longer are people going to keep taking the "not 1, not 2, not 3...." statement out of context?

[Cladyclad]

So many things wrong with your post.

Orlando game 5 LeBron had 37-14-12 and scored or assisted on 29 straight points (that number might be a bit off but it's close) in the 4th quarter with his team trailing by one.

Iverson had a more talented team. He had the DPOY and 6th man of the year on his team. That's taken a bit out of context as Iverson was shouldering most of the scoring load on that team, if not all at times, but that team was certainly more talented than LeBron's Cleveland team that he took to the finals.


On a side note, how much longer are people going to keep taking the "not 1, not 2, not 3...." statement out of context? i meant game 6

[jrong]

There are no excuses for how Wade performed, and the Heat should, for their own good and his, should trade him-- he should at least fetch a center and role players. I've never seen him inside his own head before, but he clearly was. I've always boasted that he's never failed in a playoff series (I define failure as drastic underperformance and losing), but he is now-- miserably.

That said, James is far from playing great. The days of 53% shooting are long-gone. His 3 pt shooting is abominable and his FT shooting isn't good either. In Game 3, Chalmers covered Wade's slack; Wade would've had to outplay James for the Heat to win.

What is going on is a combination of Bosh's absence (though I'm not sure that would've made a difference-- see my next point), the perfect opponent to exploit their weaknesses, and the alpha dog conundrum that has plagued them since Day 1.

I'll take the last point first. To anyone (including Wade himself), who will tell you that Wade cedeing control to James was good for the Heat, here is the ultimate counterpoint in rebuttal:

2011: 58-22; 2012: 46-20

Even despite upgraded personnel, the 2011 Heat were much better because they had two players who could alternately wreck teams. That's not the way they operated this year (of course, if Wade is physically unable to do this now, all the more reason to trade him).

Now on to the Pacers. The Heat have never faced a center in the postseason like Hibbert who can take advantage of their size at both at both ends. Then they have waves of defenders and attacking players who can score, 3 pt shooters who can actually hit them, and other bigs who can compromise the Heat inside.

I hesitate to put much blame on Spo because he can only play the cards he's been dealt. Really, the fault lies with Riley and the big 3 themselves who engineered this ill-conceived team. Because even at full-strength, the Heat weren't winning it all-- ok, check that-- if they somehow avoided all among the Celtics, Thunder, and Spurs-- and arguably the Lakers-- they could. Maybe.

[305Baller]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story?page=PERDiem-120518&_slug_=nba-playoffs-miami-heat-lebron-james-shouldering-heavy-load&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fplayoffs%2f2012%2fstory%3fpage%3dPERDiem-120518%26_slug_%3dnba-playoffs-miami-heat-lebron-james-shouldering-heavy-load



SMH. :facepalm

well the writer is right.

[MostHated305]

How are you supposed to win when a role player is having the game of his life and outscoring your MVP ass. :confusedshrug:

How you suppose to win when Wade has 5 pts. and 5 turnovers?

[boxclever]

Hollinger is just butt hurt because it shows that PER is the ultimate all hat and no cattle statistic.
:applause: