Better all-time player: Dirk or Wade

[Mirko Cro Cop]

Dirk
Reg season: 22.9 ppg, .475 FG%, 8.3 RPG, 2.6 APG on 1,055 games
Playoffs: 25.9 ppg, .463 FG%, 10.3 RPG, 2.6 APG on 128 games

NBA champion
Finals MVP
MVP
4x ALL-NBA 1st-team
5x ALL-NBA 2nd-team

Wade
Reg season: 25.2 ppg, .486 FG%, 5.1 RPG, 6.2 APG on 596 games
Playoffs: 25.9 PPG, .483 FG%, 5.7 RPG, 5.6 APG on 87 games

NBA champion
Finals MVP
2x ALL-NBA 1st-Team
3x ALL-NBA 2nd-Team
Scoring Champion

If they both retired today, who goes down in history as the better player?

[Sarcastic]

Dirk, but if Wade can win multiple rings with Lebron, then he can pass him.

[Punpun]

The guy with the unguardable shot.

[Fazotronic]

http://answers.bettor.com/images/Articles/thumbs/extralarge/Dirk-Nowitzki,-Shawn-Marion,-Dwyane-Wade,-LeBron-James-Top-performers-from-game-2-of-NBA-Finals-ewpfxbufh3zoqa1k5kdblsza-.jpg

[jlauber]

This is difficult because they play different positions, but I would give the edge to Dirk. Dirk is an extremely skilled 7-0 footer with 3 pt range. You could argue that there have been at least a few "Wades" who have played in the history of the NBA, but I can't think of another Dirk.

[jrong]

All-time: Dirk, obviously. He's got an MVP and an FMVP and longevity.

Peak: Wade, obviously.

[rodman91]

Dirk, no doubt.

Nowitzki faced many greatest powerforwards of all time and hold his own. He was better one in most of match ups.

Wade had easy career next to Nowitzki. He had Shaq first and now Lebron & Bosh. Don't tell me Shaq wasn't prime Shaq because he was still beast and best center in the league when he was in Heat.

With that said, Wade (in early career) had MJ-like quality in his game. Too bad he lost it in couple of years.

[StateOfMind12]

All-time: Dirk, obviously. He's got an MVP and an FMVP and longevity.

Peak: Wade, obviously.
This.....Wade has him beat if we are talking single best season or when they were at their absolute best but Dirk has him beat due to longevity and more accomplishments.

[R.I.P.]

If shooting was not a quality in basketball Wade and Bron would actually be as good as ESPN wants you to believe they are.:roll:

[PianoMan]

Wade is the better defender, better stats. Dirk only has more accomplishments due to being in the NBA longer. And plus he can only shoot better than Wade

[blablabla]

Wade is the better defender, better stats. Dirk only has more accomplishments due to being in the NBA longer. And plus he can only shoot better than Wade
he's also smarter than wade, a better rebounder, more clutch and arguably the better scorer

[Punpun]

The guy who can shoot.

[PianoMan]

he's also smarter than wade, a better rebounder, more clutch and arguably the better scorer
Smarter? Wow. Rebounder, i'll give him that. Clutch? Wade is arguably the most clutch defender in the Nba with the way he blocks and steals in closing minutes of the game, and we can name a number of clutch shots Wade hit in his career. Scorer, Wade is the better scorer, but not shooter

[Heavincent]

Dirk obviously.

[Shepseskaf]

he's also smarter than wade, a better rebounder, more clutch and arguably the better scorer
1) They both took IQ tests and Dirk's score was higher? Funny, I didn't hear about this. If that didn't happen, what you posted is pure BS.

2) It is customary for a player at the power forward position to have better rebounding numbers than a shooting guard. Is this news? Or a reason to promote Dirk over Wade? :facepalm

3) More clutch? Debatable at best. See: 2006 Finals.

4) Wade has a higher career scoring average than Dirk, and shoots at a better percentage.

[RRR3]

If shooting was not a quality in basketball Wade and Bron would actually be as good as ESPN wants you to believe they are.:roll:
If you got your head out of your ass, you might realize LeBron is a good shooter:facepalm

[TheBigVeto]

Dirk of course.
He won championship despite David Stern.

Wade won because Stern giftwrapped it for him.

Dirk >>>>>>>>> Wade

[no pun intended]

Wade couldn't have done it without Shaq. Really.

[Dresta]

Wade couldn't have done it without Shaq. Really.
Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.

[D-Wade316]

Peak: Wade
Prime: Wade
Career: Dirk

[NumberSix]

DWade.... Not even close.

You don't go an entire career without learning how to play defense and get ranked over Wade. Sorry.

[RidonKs]

dirk is much more valuable in that he's much less typical. pair him with a get'er done defensive minded center and he's money in so many ways. replace either wade or lebron with dirk right now and the miami heat are a better team. they have swingmen to fill in the gaps, a floor spacer who can rebound and defend well enough like dirk, a leader, a consummate professional, a clutch guy who fills in where he has to, who can always get a decent shot thanks to his height. that shits more indispensable than a swingman, even one as uber talented as dwyane wade. i shouldn't exaggerate, its close, but again i've always liked dirk more for the atypical player he is and the gaps he can fill.

career wise, sure wade could stack up more on his mantle and thus have dibs on that 'better all time' label, and i guess thats the discussion this thread was made to have, but i don't put much stock into it.

[D-Wade316]

DWade.... Not even close.

You don't go an entire career without learning how to play defense and get ranked over Wade. Sorry.
TBH, Dirk has been very good defensively the past 2 seasons. You may not realize it because of stereotypes, but Dallas falls off hard with him out of the court.

RAPM
'11 - 3.0
'12 - 3.2

Drtg
'11 - -6.6
'12 - -4.1

If he was so bad defensively, why was Dallas still 8th defensively this season without Chandler? It's because his defensive impact is underrated. In fact at one point this season they were 3rd or 4th IIRC.

[RidonKs]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.
just tallied it up, wade outscored dirk by less 5-6 pts for the series

in other words, not much of a difference, both dudes played out of this world

though it seems safe to say wade shot the ball better from the floor, then again dirk shot much better from the line whereas wade was a putrid 34-51 from the line



TBH, Dirk has been very good defensively the past 2 seasons. You may not realize it because of stereotypes, but Dallas falls off hard with him out of the court.
lol @ last two seasons, the dirk stinks defensively stereotype should have died at least five or six years ago. he came into the league a softy but grew into at worst an average defender and rebounder for his height. not bad by any means, and definitely better (aka smarter) than the spry youngin pf's out there like amare and griffin

[NumberSix]

TBH, Dirk has been very good defensively the past 2 seasons. You may not realize it because of stereotypes, but Dallas falls off hard with him out of the court.

RAPM
'11 - 3.0
'12 - 3.2

Drtg
'11 - -6.6
'12 - -4.1

If he was so bad defensively, why was Dallas still 8th defensively this season without Chandler? It's because his defensive impact is underrated. In fact at one point this season they were 3rd or 4th IIRC.
At no point in Dirk's career has he been an elite defensive player. He's been decent to good at best.

[DirkNowitzki41]

These are my two favorite players of all-time, but its obviously Dirk, although Wade can surpass him soon.

[miles berg]

Dirk for sure, imagine if LeBron and Dirk were on the same team, they would be working on their 2nd straight title.

[gengiskhan]

Dirk: 1 season MVP
Wade: 0 season MVP

Dirk: 1 FMVP
Wade: 1 FMVP

Wade: 1 scoring title
Dirk: 0 scoring title

Bold one beats out Wade.

Wade's injury ridden career has costed him his legacy.

[bizil]

Peak value wise give me Wade. I'm usually more partial to alpha dogs with great all around games. That's why I think guys like Wade, MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, Big O, and Kobe are on another level. Or for big guys Duncan, Hakeem, Barkley, KG, Robinson, Kareem. But GOAT wise, I think Dirk is still above Wade. Dirk is still in his prime in his mid 30's and in my opinion is still the best PF in the world. Dirk's all around isnt on the level of guys like KG, Pau, or Duncan. Or isn't a freak athlete like Blake or a beast on the boards like Love. But KG and Duncan are past their prime. Dirk's scoring ability can supercede many guys with superior all around games. This was just a weird year for the L due to the lockout. But don't get it twisted, I still think Dirk is in his prime.

But Wade came in the L like five years after Dirk had already been there. Wade is younger and can eventually pass Dirk by GOAT wise. But even GOAT wise, Wade isn't as far behind Dirk as many believe. And Wade ended up as the second best SG of the golden era of SG's. And D Wade peak value wise is a top 5 SG of all time. In GOAT terms, Wade is a top 5-7 SG already.

[shadow]

Biggest knock on Wade is the fact that he's been fairly inconsistent, granted injuries play a factor but Dirk's just been playing top level for a lot longer.

[gilalizard]

Dirk.

Far better consistent performer.

Dirk's finals victory is beyond question. Totally legit.

"Dwhistle" earned this name in his finals.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk deserves to be ranked higher for all the obvious reasons.

As solely players though...Its too close to call for even me. Not sure who I would pick with a gun to my head.

I'll go with Dirk because I can't imagine he and Lebron not winning a title on the same team. Not really a fair comparison because of chemistry issues, but I feel like one reason why Dirk is still under-rated is his ability to play with just about any type of other player very well.

[Haymaker]

Dirk, obviously.

[TaLvsCuaL]

Today? Dirk

Tomorrow? Maybe Wade, or not.

[tpols]

Easily Dirk. Better scorer.. much better closer.. obviously better rebounder. Has way more of the important accolades on his resume. Infinitely better longevity.

[tpols]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.
Dirk was much more keyed in by the defenses as he was his team's clear cut best offensive player(and Wade had Lebron) and Dirk destroyed Wade in the clutch game after game. No way you can give that to Wade.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.

Wait a second.

You list of Chandler and Terry and Marion as if they are great 2nd options and then call Shaq tragically bad?

Shaq in 06 was still a very good player. He had a much bigger impact than his stats. In fact, idiot Avery Johnson keyed on Shaq the entire series because he was so afraid of him and a big reason why Wade produced what he did was because of that.

But lets clear one thing up. Shaq was infinitely a better player than those three guys you just mentioned. In fact, all three of those guys on the Mavs would make for historically poor 2nd options on title winning teams. Really only the 03 Spurs and 94 Rockets had worse 2nd best players on title winning teams in the modern era:

Terry: 18/2/3
Chandler: 8/9
Marion: 12/6/2

Shaq: 18/10/2

Not only did Shaq produce significantly better than all of those guys, but he actually had to be game planned for and drew a lot of defensive attention.



In terms of Wade vs Dirk in the finals. I think Wade was the best player through the first 4 games, but he dropped off the last two....and he couldn't get it done late in those games....while Dirk played about as well as a player can possibly play in the big moments. I'd take Dirk overall in that series...especially given the fact that he didn't have Lebron and Bosh flanking him to draw a ton of defensive attention. Give Dirk 2 guys like that and he would have shot 55% probably.

[pauk]

Dirk Nowitzki

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade was better at his peak, that is an easier choice because Wade was already better than Dirk in '06, when Dirk was arguably at his peak. Wade wasn't at his peak, but that was his second best year because he was in his athletic prime, and he was developing a nice mid-range game, particularly in the playoffs, plus he had gotten a bit more under control than '05.

But Wade's peak was in '09 when he returned healthy, his mid-range game was easily better than ever, and he used it more, while even becoming a decent threat on 3s, especially after the break. All while playing probably his smartest and most efficient ball with the best defense of his career.

But if we look at Wade's prime from '06-'11, 2 of those years were ruined by injuries, and aside from '06 and '11, he was a mediocre shooter, which is a problem for me with perimeter players.

Dirk has been more consistent, and outside of his phenomenal shooting which makes him a real mismatch, the rest of his game came around during the mid 00's, becoming quite good as a passer, a solid rebounder and improving to an average defender. He also does this without being ball dominant. By '06 or so, his mid-range game was one of the most devastating of all time, perhaps top 5 since I've been watching the NBA. He's led 3 completely different teams with different coaches to the WCF('03, '06, '11), 2 completely different teams with different coaches to the finals('06 and '11), and won one of them. That's very impressive, and he didn't truly get a chance in '03 when he was injured in game 3 of the WCF.

Definitely one of the best offensive players of the past 20 years, if not all time.

It's difficult because I value peak a lot, and both have rings as the man, but I also look at entire primes and injuries bring Wade's down.

I'd say they're in the same tier all time.


Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

As far as Shaq in the finals, well, I can call game 1 bad for one simple reason, his free throw shooting was a reason they lost a winnable game despite playing well in other aspects such as scoring when he had opportunities and recognized the double teams. Game 2 was horrible, Shaq's worst game during his relevant years. But he played quite well from games 3-5, though he was quiet in game 6.

But he was also getting doubled constantly in the '06 finals, often on the catch, and Dirk was the double teamer quite a bit. That was probably motivated by seeing Shaq destroy Detroit when they guarded him primarily with single coverage.

However, he was essential to Miami even making the playoffs, much less winning a title. Far more than any specific teammate of Dirk's. Just look at Miami's record without Shaq, they were 10-13, and still just 10-11 when Wade played in those games, and that was with Alonzo Mourning to fill in as a 12/9/4 elite defensive center when he was starting. That was the difference in impact between Shaq in '06 and one of the better centers. Not to mention the big games he had vs Chicago in '06 when Wade had an off series, including a 30/20 game, or Shaq's dominance vs Detroit.

Even '07 Shaq who had declined more was enough of an impact player to lead an old, washed up Heat cast to a 16-7 record when Wade was injured.

The man was still a borderline top 10 player by '06, and Chuck Daly took it one step further.

[QUOTE=Chuck Daly]"It's amusing to me," Hall of Fame coach Chuck Daly said, adding that O'Neal remains one of the top five players in the league regardless of his stats. "Every night, people are playing him with two, 2

[Lord Leoshes]

Who ever picked Dirk has no clue of what defense is, cause Dirk could not guard his own shadow if his life depended on it. He is a liability 50% of the time he is on the floor, while even when Wade is having a bad shooting game, he still plays great defense. Specially off the ball.


In a shooting competition give me dirk all day every day, but in crunch time offense both would do great, but on the defensive end, Dirk would get schooled.

[Flamboyant]

1) They both took IQ tests and Dirk's score was higher? Funny, I didn't hear about this. If that didn't happen, what you posted is pure BS.

2) It is customary for a player at the power forward position to have better rebounding numbers than a shooting guard. Is this news? Or a reason to promote Dirk over Wade? :facepalm

3) More clutch? Debatable at best. See: 2006 Finals.

4) Wade has a higher career scoring average than Dirk, and shoots at a better percentage.

1. Dirk definitely has higher IQ. A decent IQ would be enough to understand that. (And lol@ thinking they never actually took IQ tests)

2. I agree.

3. Debatable, but still Dirk. See: 2011 Finals (and the whole playoffs)

4. Wade is the better scorer, but don't bring the efficency, as Dirk is the better FT and 3pt shooter. See: TS%


DWade.... Not even close.

You don't go an entire career without learning how to play defense and get ranked over Wade. Sorry.

So now Wade is better than Magic?? :oldlol:

[Shepseskaf]

1. Dirk definitely has higher IQ. A decent IQ would be enough to understand that. (And lol@ thinking they never actually took IQ tests)

2. I agree.

3. Debatable, but still Dirk. See: 2011 Finals (and the whole playoffs)

4. Wade is the better scorer, but don't bring the efficency, as Dirk is the better FT and 3pt shooter. See: TS%
:facepalm IQ is a quality that is quickly disappearing on ISH.

1) On what basis can you definitively state that Dirk has a higher IQ than Wade? If you aren't privy to such a "test" being administered, then you cannot make that statement.

In addition, I'm assuming that "basketball IQ" is being discussed here, and both have proven to be very smart on the court, to the point where there is no conclusive evidence that one is higher than the other. Both led their teams to championships and were named FMVP.

3) I don't agree that the "clutch" label would go to one over the other. Both hit many key shots during their championship runs.

4) So, Wade is a higher career scorer, with a higher career FG%, yet Dirk is supposed to be more "efficient"? :facepalm

I'm having a real problem with all these declarations that Dirk is "obviously" the choice between he and Wade. Wade has a little bench tantrum, and all of the sudden he gets devalued?

If anything, their career paths have been very similar, and all-time positions should be viewed as close.

[Shepseskaf]

So now Wade is better than Magic?? :oldlol:
This meme that Magic played no defense is both ridiculous and completely false.

Not that he was an all-time defender, but notice that he led the league in steals twice, in '80-'81 (3.43 spg) and '81-82 (2.67 spg).

Suffice it to say that it isn't very likely that Dirk's name will ever appear on that list.

[PTB Fan]

Arguably Dirk, but it can go to either side. Dirk is more durable which is the reason why he's played longer while being elite.

[Yanch856]

Dirk. One legged fadeaway.

It just makes him so logically unstoppable - like he could use that shot when he's 55 and still score on a bunch of guys. Plus they were heavy underdogs going into that series against lebron, wade, and bosh. So how can you pick Wade right now?

[Flamboyant]

:facepalm IQ is a quality that is quickly disappearing on ISH.

1) On what basis can you definitively state that Dirk has a higher IQ than Wade? If you aren't privy to such a "test" being administered, then you cannot make that statement.

In addition, I'm assuming that "basketball IQ" is being discussed here, and both have proven to be very smart on the court, to the point where there is no conclusive evidence that one is higher than the other. Both led their teams to championships and were named FMVP.

3) I don't agree that the "clutch" label would go to one over the other. Both hit many key shots during their championship runs.

4) So, Wade is a higher career scorer, with a higher career FG%, yet Dirk is supposed to be more "efficient"? :facepalm

I'm having a real problem with all these declarations that Dirk is "obviously" the choice between he and Wade. Wade has a little bench tantrum, and all of the sudden he gets devalued?

If anything, their career paths have been very similar, and all-time positions should be viewed as close.

1. Dirk's in game mechanics were already enough for me to make that statement. Dude has improved everything of his game considerably (even his rebounding). There is literally an engineering masterpiece in his shooting. His durability is also a sign of his high IQ (though I know thats not always a good criteria, his durability is simply ridiculous). But as I said these WERE good basis for that argument. After game 3 I can only laugh at D-Wade's IQ.

In addition if you assumed that "basketball IQ" is being discussed here, why did you ask for a test on paper to begin with? Also, even as a Mavericks fan, I've always given credit for Wade's epic series in 06. But that series (and FMVP awards altogether) have nothing to do with IQ.

3. When you say debatable at best, it means one is considerably better, but comparisons can be made. I think we're pretty much on the same paper here.

4. FG% ????????? Since when basketball is all about FG%? Wade's mediocre FT, and horrible 3pt shooting aren't good enough to match Dirk's superior all-around efficency. This is the one that's not debatable.

For the note: I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with picking either one of them over the other.

[Flamboyant]

This meme that Magic played no defense is both ridiculous and completely false.

Not that he was an all-time defender, but notice that he led the league in steals twice, in '80-'81 (3.43 spg) and '81-82 (2.67 spg).

Suffice it to say that it isn't very likely that Dirk's name will ever appear on that list.

Yeah, the legendary steals argument. Sure Magic got steals. And AI led the spg category 3 times. Bruce Bowen... never. I guess Iverson > Bowen then. :facepalm

Actually just like Magic the meme that Dirk played no defense is both ridiculous and completely false.

[anthonyRandolph]

Wade had 42 one finals game than 36 the next :biggums: wait holy sht did Wade average like 37 in the finals in 2006 :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
edit:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1


For the series, Wade averaged 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 2.7 steals -- and this in a slow-paced series

[Shepseskaf]

FG% ????????? Since when basketball is all about FG%?
:roll: Oh, I don't know.... like since people first started watching basketball? Which, for you, I assume was only recently.


For the note: I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with picking either one of them over the other.
I would always take a versatile wing player over a specialist -- even a specialist as good as Dirk is.


Yeah, the legendary steals argument. Sure Magic got steals. And AI led the spg category 3 times. Bruce Bowen... never. I guess Iverson > Bowen then.
You're making unwarranted logistical assumptions. Steals are just one aspect of defense, not the entire picture. If a player leads the lead in steals, it means something. Not that the player is automatically the best on defense for that year, but one that has excelled in one specific area.

As to the rest of your argument, I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Dresta]

Anyone got a comparison of Wade's finals averages and Dirk's?

Just find it obscene that people are praising Dirk and belittling Wade in this regard.

[Pointguard]

Peak: Wade
Prime: Wade
Career: Dirk
This.

Its a hard call and very close.

Both are unique players. Dirk is a big that plays away from the basket and is an excellent shooter. Wade is a guard that plays close to the rim - not so good shooter. So this makes it even harder to compare. A lot of great accomplishments are similar. Dirk has an advantage there but has more years. Wade puts more pressure on the defense because his penetration gets him close to the basket and then he's one of the best passer's at his postion. Dirk is easy to work with as an offensive team player because he can shoot from anywhere. Everything has a trade off with these two. Scoring wise they are pretty much equal.

I lean a bit toward Wade because of his superb passing and defense.

[Whoah10115]

Dirk for career, pretty clear.


Wade better player, pretty clear.

[BarberSchool]

All-time: Dirk, obviously. He's got an MVP and an FMVP and longevity.

Peak: Wade, obviously.This, but re-arranged:

Peak: Wade, obviously
All-time: Dirk, obviously. He's got an MVP and an FMVP and longevity.

[Pointguard]

Anyone got a comparison of Wade's finals averages and Dirk's?

Just find it obscene that people are praising Dirk and belittling Wade in this regard.
Wade has to have one of the most impressive finals stats around.

[Nash]

Wade, he was a legit superstar in every single way. Dirk has never been a superstar like Lebron and Kobe. Wade has.

[tpols]

Anyone got a comparison of Wade's finals averages and Dirk's?

Just find it obscene that people are praising Dirk and belittling Wade in this regard.
Yea lets only focus on a sample size of 12 games for both these guys instead of the hundreds they have combined in the playoffs. Makes perfect sense. :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Dirk. He played in a really good age for PF's and is a one of a kind player.

[upside24]

Dirk couldn't have done it without Chandler, or Terry, or Marion. For a second option in the finals Shaq was almost tragically bad, your point is tragically idiotic.

edit: anyone got Wade and Dirk's numbers for the 2011 finals? Wade was the best player in that series.
So Tyson Chandler is as good as Shaq? Terry or Marion are as good as Shaq? Are you mentally handicapped?

[TheCorporation]

All-time: Dirk, He's got an MVP and longevity.

Peak: Wade, obviously.

Agreed