Skip Bayless : Kobe's legacy took a hit on Saturday.

[stallionaire]

Looks like the media is coming to their senses. If the Lakers get bounced Kobe will just be another failed 'next-Jordan' type of player.

This is Duncan's era. Has been since 99'.

[AlphaWolf24]

took a hit ???....

after 7 NBA Finals and 5 Championship Rings???


Like I said in my thread....


This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...



he will a champion again...book it.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Oh please, yet when they get on Lebron, you'd bitch and complain.

[stallionaire]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.

[White Mamba]

st. smith shout his mouth in a great way.:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.


not 1...not 2....not 3.....

[DDensity]

Looks like the media is coming to their senses. If the Lakers get bounced Kobe will just be another failed 'next-Jordan' type of player.

This is Duncan's era. Has been since 99'.

How stupid. So, what he's doing while on the decline of his career, is going to change what he's done in the past? The guy has 5 championships and all sorts of personal accolades. That's like saying Tim Duncan isn't one of the best PFs ever because he's old, slow and the 3rd option on his team now.

Previous accomplishments aren't nullified by current failures.

[NumberSix]

I honestly don't think his legacy took a hit on saturday whatsoever. People are acting like he played much worse than he really did.

[LakersReign]

Looks like the media is coming to their senses. If the Lakers get bounced Kobe will just be another failed 'next-Jordan' type of player.

This is Duncan's era. Has been since 99'.

WOW....REALLY?:eek:

So....I guess the reason why idiots like you are ALWAYS hyping up Lebron since '03, was cuz you had nothing better to do then....huh? Just gotta love it how, when Skip goes hard on Lebron, y'all LOVE to say he's a hater. But now, he says something about Kobe, ALL OF SUDDEN, he knows what he's talking about.:rolleyes:

Try harder:sleeping

[stallionaire]

I honestly don't think his legacy took a hit on saturday whatsoever. People are acting like he played much worse than he really did.

he shot 2-10 in the 4th Saturday.... :facepalm

[caliman]

Looks like the media is coming to their senses. If the Lakers get bounced Kobe will just be another failed 'next-Jordan' type of player.

This is Duncan's era. Has been since 99'.


:oldlol:

[triangleoffense]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.
What's funny is that this is exactly type of thinking that Lebron and his zombie fans that has lost him playoff games.

Let's see if he can get it done with Wade + Bosh before you make those type of statements :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

he shot 2-10 in the 4th Saturday.... :facepalm


ok then...did Jordan's legacy take a hit when he choked vs Orlando and lost the series???...

The Bull's actually played better without him in the playoff's the year before.

did he have a dent in his legacy In your opinion???


wait, you prolly 10 years old...never mind.

[DDensity]

he shot 2-10 in the 4th Saturday.... :facepalm

3 of those shots were in the last 10 seconds. He's been pretty bad in the 4th all year. The only sensible conclusion is that the guy is playing too many minutes. Pay attention, most of his shots are short towards the end of the game. Kobe shouldn't be playing any more than 30 minutes a game anymore.

[TheMan]

OP should stick to futbol

[NumberSix]

Just gotta love it how, when Skip goes hard on Lebron, y'all LOVE to say he's a hater. But now, he says something about Kobe, ALL OF SUDDEN, he knows what he's talking about.:rolleyes:

Try harder:sleeping
You gotta give it to LakersReign on this one. He's absolutely right. Don't be hypocrites.

Skip has no credibility PERIOD. The guy OBVIOUSLY just says absurd things about big name athletes to gain attention. His only agenda is making himself famous.

[madmax]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.

[b4uc.23]

Kobetards are really mad hahahaha

[wang4three]

Skip has always been sensational. He won't even remember this game in 10 years.

[TheMan]

You gotta give it to LakersReign on this one. He's absolutely right. Don't be hypocrites.

Skip has no credibility PERIOD. The guy OBVIOUSLY just says absurd things about big name athletes to gain attention. His only agenda is making himself famous.
As a Bulls fan, I also agree with this, Bayless just trolls for attention. The crap he says about LBJ, Kobe, Rose, Howard etc is crap.

Successful troll is very sucessful.

[LakersReign]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.

ROTFLMAO @ this pathetic bandwagon b***h, who has been in hinding for the last few days when the Heat were losing. NOW wants to come back in here talkin' sh*t cuz they're winning again.:roll:

GTFOH!!!!

[TheMan]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.
Stop it, you are as bad as kobetards hating on LeBron.

[NumberSix]

Skip has always been sensational. He won't even remember this game in 10 years.
Skip probably didn't even watch this game in the first place.

[DuMa]

i dont know which is worse. Skip Bayless himself or the legion of idiots that continue to spread Skip Bayless' words through the internet like wildfire as if it was legitimate news.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Kobe will never win without Phil Jackson.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.
thiis

[BMOGEFan]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.

You're asking for it man.

[caliman]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.


just stop

[ralph_i_el]

took a hit ???....

after 7 NBA Finals and 5 Championship Rings???


Like I said in my thread....


This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...



he will a champion again...book it.

kobe's lakers are not going to be better than this year. They are in decline. What makes you think they'll win it with a worse team? Still banking on dwight howard are we?

[Mr Know It All]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.

Extreme stance, but actually not THAT far from the truth.

[stallionaire]

what legacy?:confusedshrug:
This chucker never had a legacy to begin with - never was the best player in the league and always was carried to rings by elite bigmen and super clutch role players.

People are gonna hate on this comment but it's 100% true.

[LakersReign]

Try harder:sleeping

[KG215]

This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...


No...it's not.

[oolalaa]

This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...



:roll:

Nope. That was last year, if at all.


Kobe is a much older 33 year old than Jordan was. Roughly 200 more games, 14,000 more minutes and several more knee surgeries (I'm pretty sure Jordan didn't have a single knee surgery, at least not in Chicago) have sapped all the life out of his legs. He plays in slow motion nowadays. It was a little sad watching him try to get up for those fadeaways in the 4th quarter. No spring, no lift, no nothing. He struggles to go the distance. His body can't take it anymore.

He's no longer capable of leading a team to a championship (feel free to bump this thread if L.A inexplicably wins this year :oldlol: Forget that, I'll do it myself). 33 year old Jordan would not have choked away 2 games in this series - that's a fact.

[theaussieguy]

people take this bball thing way too seriously

[swi7ch]

He ain't no Jordan.

[Quickening]

Kobe hit 6 for 24 in game 7 of the finals...

[NewYorkNoPicks]

This is Duncan's era. Has been since 99'.

Except for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, and 2010

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...




...except Kobe did it like 4-5 times in a 2 minute span and didn't just return from as 22 month layoff. :oldlol:

[oolalaa]

ok then...did Jordan's legacy take a hit when he choked vs Orlando and lost the series???...

The Bull's actually played better without him in the playoff's the year before.

did he have a dent in his legacy In your opinion???


wait, you prolly 10 years old...never mind.

Do you not remember that MJ returned to basketball late in that 94/95 season after a 20 month baseball sabbatical?! (Of course you do. You were just being disingenuous) 20 months without playing a single NBA game! Yeh, that's the same situation as Kobe this year :roll:


Your boy Kobe is an MJ wannabe, always has been and always will be. He's inferior in just about every way. (still easily a top ten player of all time though)

[I<3NBA]

He ain't no Jordan.
that at least has been very obvious from the start. and now at the end of his career, it is very clear Kobe will never reach Jordan's level. he tried. he really tried hard. he just could not match up. not even touch Jordan's feet.

[White Mamba]

Kobe will never win without Phil Jackson.


:oldlol: relly smart to say this in his 16 season. what are the chances he will win with phil now? not much.

[LakersReign]

that at least has been very obvious from the start. and now at the end of his career, it is very clear Kobe will never reach Jordan's level. he tried. he really tried hard. he just could not match up. not even touch Jordan's feet.

Love it how Lebronytes say that, while at the same time trying to backdoor Lebron into the conversation. "Buh....buh....buh....buh....Lebron has 3 MVP's and Kobe only has 1. So Lebron's closer to Jordan than Kobe" Pathetic:facepalm

[amfirst]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.


:roll:

He can't even do it with Wade the 2nd SG behind Kobe and Bosh who owns Lakers bigs every time they play. And u seriously believe he can carry the Lakers bigs. puahahahahahah U r seriously delusional like Bron. Not 1 not 2 not 3.... :lol Who is he going to pass the ball in the 4th to? There's no 3 point shooters like Heats on the Lakers. :hammerhead: And no Wade to carry him!!!!

[amfirst]

Kobe hit 6 for 24 in game 7 of the finals...


LeBron scored 4 points in the finals. :confusedshrug:

[UtahJazzFan88]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.

We're comparing PRIME LeBron to a Kobe who's played over 40,000 NBA minute aka washed up?

Kobe has been playing pretty phenomenal considering it's his 16th season in the league, played over 40,000 NBA minutes, and considering the injuries he's had to deal with.

[TheBluest]

We're comparing PRIME LeBron to a Kobe who's played over 40,000 NBA minute aka washed up?


Hey 10yrs ago KobeTards wanted to gloat how he was doing comeback MJ in.


Time for Kobe to get his healthy serving of Gritz.... Old Arse Washed Up Dude

[Rysio]

so in his 16th season after putting up 38/8/5 on saturday his legacy took a hit? lmao

[ihoopallday]

so in his 16th season after putting up 38/8/5 on saturday his legacy took a hit? lmao

Skip lost all credibility when he crowned Tebow as the next great QB. Water Pistol Pete Junior needs to quit trolling. To make today's show even worse, they spent 10 minutes discussing LeBron reading a book in the locker room yesterday. ESPN has turned into a joke.

[kentatm]

Skip Bayless is nothing but an arrogant, narcissistic, real life troll.



Skip lost all credibility when he crowned Tebow as the next great QB. Water Pistol Pete Junior needs to quit trolling. To make today's show even worse, they spent 10 minutes discussing LeBron reading a book in the locker room yesterday. ESPN has turned into a joke.

he lost all credibility 20 years ago when he got his ass kicked out of Dallas media for making up lies about Troy Aikman being gay to sell books. I mean how sleazy can you get? Not only would it have been a totally douchebag move to out somebody, he knew it was horseshit and ran with it anyway.

[Knoe Itawl]

Haha, Kobe d!kkriders praise Skip as the prophet of basketball when he's railing against Lebron.

Now, however, it's a different story. :oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

so in his 16th season after putting up 38/8/5 on saturday his legacy took a hit? lmao

Those are nice numbers, but his impact was minimal. He arguably hurt the Lakers more than helped in the fourth quarter.

Really that game summed up our year. Bynum played extremely well, but got ignored when it mattered; Gasol played passive and despite his versatility looked out of sorts playing the mid-post; and Kobe had a very up and down game with decent numbers but low impact. Meh.

[WeGetRing2012]

No it didnt....

Jordan didnt win every year he was in league

[Rysio]

Those are nice numbers, but his impact was minimal. He arguably hurt the Lakers more than helped in the fourth quarter.

Really that game summed up our year. Bynum played extremely well, but got ignored when it mattered; Gasol played passive and despite his versatility looked out of sorts playing the mid-post; and Kobe had a very up and down game with decent numbers but low impact. Meh.
im not saying kobe had an amazing game or anything but he was pretty good for most of it. did he suck in the 4th? yeah but his legacy didn't take a hit thats all im saying.

[UtahJazzFan88]

Those are nice numbers, but his impact was minimal. He arguably hurt the Lakers more than helped in the fourth quarter.

Really that game summed up our year. Bynum played extremely well, but got ignored when it mattered; Gasol played passive and despite his versatility looked out of sorts playing the mid-post; and Kobe had a very up and down game with decent numbers but low impact. Meh.

Kobe played pretty damn good the first 3 quarters, but the 4th quarter like you said was beyond awful.

[amfirst]

Considering Kobe got the Lakers the lead. He was pretty good. It was more of the coaching issue. Kobe was well defended by Durant in the 4th, someone else should have stepped up like Gasol to make a basket. Instead of forcing the ball to Kobe to put up a bad shot. I mean he is not 26 no more. He barely has any lift at times, can't expect him to shoot over a 7 footer in his athletic prime.

[konex]

The same people saying this crap were predicting an OKC sweep in the first place. LA has been competitive this series with an inferior roster, poor coach and no HCA. They could have won it with fewer mistakes :banghead:

[jlip]

The fact that Skip Bayless said it, alone, discredits the statement.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

The same people saying this crap were predicting an OKC sweep in the first place. LA has been competitive this series with an inferior roster, poor coach and no HCA. They could have won it with fewer mistakes :banghead:
Inferior roster how? They won titles with the same exact roster but with Fisher and Odom.

[LakersReign]

Inferior roster how? They won titles with the same exact roster but with Fisher and Odom.

Why don't you people use the internet for something other than making yourselves look stupid. Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, Ronnie Turiaf, Jordan Farmar, Radmanovic, and Sasha all say hello.:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

Like I said in my thread....


This is Kobe's "MJ spins on Anderson .......and LOSES THE BALL" year...


No, that was last year. This year, he was supposed to have his lead the Lakers to 72 wins, setting the all time record, and begin another 3-peat year.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Why don't you people use the internet for something other than making yourselves look stupid. Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Radmanovic, and Sasha all say hello.:facepalm
Trevor Ariza wasn't with Metta on the team. And those role players are total scrubs. Maybe Shannon Brown. But by this point he would deserve to be the starter for LA.

[upside24]

Skip Bayless is a complete ****ing idiot so...

[LakersReign]

Trevor Ariza wasn't with Metta on the team. And those role players are total scrubs. Maybe Shannon Brown. But by this point he would deserve to be the starter for LA.

As POINTLESS as ever huh? Holla back when you can tell me exactly when Barnes and Blake won a title with the Lakers?:sleeping

[jlip]

I'm sorry. After 15 seasons one's legacy is pretty much established. It is rare that any player's legacy can get worse after his 15th season. It basically can only improve. 20 years from now, when people are discussing Kobe's rank and career, nobody is going to be talking about what happened the other night. All they are going to bring up will be his accomplishments as they do with other retired greats.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

As POINTLESS as ever huh? Holla back when you can tell me exactly when Barnes and Blake won a title with the Lakers?:sleeping
You have RAMON SESSIONS. The best PG LA has seen since Magic Johnson.

[LakersReign]

You have RAMON SESSIONS. The best PG LA has seen since Magic Johnson.

....which has absolutely nothing to do with what you said here. proving that you have no real point here. Big surprise.:rolleyes:


Inferior roster how? They won titles with the same exact roster but with Fisher and Odom.


Try harder:sleeping

[Knoe Itawl]

I'm sorry. After 15 seasons one's legacy is pretty much established. It is rare that any player's legacy can get worse after his 15th season. It basically can only improve. 20 years from now, when people are discussing Kobe's rank and career, nobody is going to be talking about what happened the other night. All they are going to bring up will be his accomplishments as they do with other retired greats.


LOL, people on this board argue about what Wilt and Kareem did 40 years ago, citing specific playoff series and what not.

Especially now that we have Youtube and sites that keep track of stats. Oh plenty people will talk about his failures. And there have been many, which is why he's such a polarizing figure.

His d!kkriders think it's because people just wants to "hate" on Kobe, when in fact it's because his career has been largely overinflated due to hype over what he's actually shown on the court. Great player, but never has been what he was billed to be.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

....which has absolutely nothing to do with what you said here. proving that you have no real point here. Big surprise.:rolleyes:




Try harder:sleeping
Yeah. I'm saying Kobe has essentially the same caliber role players as he always had. Sessions> Fisher. Blake> Farmar . MWP, Barnes, Gasol, Bynum, Hill, Mcroberts, Ebanks, Guodelock. It's all solid. They just don't go deep into their rotation. It's all poor coaching. That last game 3 bench players had a total of 31 minutes for LA. This is why Kobe will never win without Phil Jackson. Because Mike Brown sees Kobe Bryant as something entirely different. Mike Brown thinks Kobe is the player that Phil made him into. Phil is like the puppet master. He knows all the little things to do to make Kobe look good and how to overcompensate for his weaknesses.

[sbw19]

I agree that it took a hit. Maybe something like 1%. The Wilt and Russell argument isn't much of an argument, by and large both're considered top 5-7 alltime. Kobe's done enough to remain top10 for the time being despite his collective shortcomings.

[Knoe Itawl]

I agree that it took a hit. Maybe something like 1%. The Wilt and Russell argument isn't much of an argument, by and large both're considered top 5-7 alltime. Kobe's done enough to remain top10 for the time being (to the same type of people who proclaim him the most clutch player in the league despite massive evidence to the contrary), despite his collective shortcomings.


Fixed

[LakersReign]

Yeah. I'm saying Kobe has essentially the same caliber role players as he always had. Sessions> Fisher. Blake> Farmar . MWP, Barnes, Gasol, Bynum, Hill, Mcroberts, Ebanks, Guodelock. It's all solid. They just don't go deep into their rotation. It's all poor coaching. That last game 3 bench players had a total of 31 minutes for LA. This is why Kobe will never win without Phil Jackson. Because Mike Brown sees Kobe Bryant as something entirely different. Mike Brown thinks Kobe is the player that Phil made him into. Phil is like the puppet master. He knows all the little things to do to make Kobe look good and how to overcompensate for his weaknesses.

AND.....NONE of that has anything to do with you MAKING SH*T UP about the Lakers winning a title with Barnes and Blake.:facepalm


Try harder:sleeping

[chazzy]

Fixed
Catch up, Knoe. Majority have him top 10

[PickernRoller]

Kobe is washed up. LeBron with Pau + Bynum is a 3-peat. Guaranteed.

but I though Wade + Bosh and Lebron was 8 championships guaranteed? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7.......remember?

How about you stop embarrasing yourself and fap to LBJ's ****. Haters just continually get raped and demand more...

[FKAri]

[...] he will a champion again...book it.


what the fukk?

[Knoe Itawl]

Catch up, Knoe, Majority have him top 10

If you go by legacy as far as the accomplishments (ie, rings, etc.) then you can make that argument.

As far as impact on the court, I wouldn't have him top 10 as an actual PLAYER (which is all that really matters to me).

[sbw19]

Fixed

Been a while since last you posted, good to see you haven't lost your satirical sense of Kobe bashing.

[Pointguard]

This whole year has been pretty bad for Kobe, but by no means do I think his legacy is taking a beating. When players decline there is always a minute in there that doesn't have a lot of grace in it. He could mess up next year too and still be firmly in my top ten. His play has largely spoken for itself. He can add to it but it would be hard to lose ground on it. He has to watchdog his attitude because that aspect can be made into something when he finishes playing. He would do himself a favor with a team first attitude the rest of the way, which at times he suffered with during his career.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

How is Kobe even on the decline? 12-28 is around his career average. and he has never been clutch.

[Heavincent]

How is Kobe even on the decline? 12-28 is around his career average. and he has never been clutch.

:oldlol:

Good one sport.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

:oldlol:

Good one sport.
It's not debateable. His career average is .45 and he misses game winning and tying shots 75% of the time. Same Kobe as we've always seen. But no heroics by his team mates.

[Leviathon1121]

It's not debateable. His career average is .45 and he misses game winning and tying shots 75% of the time. Same Kobe as we've always seen. But no heroics by his team mates.

He is a volume closer, play iso basketball to close out games enough and eventually he gives his fans something to drool over, despite the horrible percentages.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

He is a volume closer, play iso basketball to close out games enough and eventually he gives his fans something to drool over, despite the horrible percentages.
Well yeah but he hasn't made a game winner in like what has it been now? 4 years?

[RazorBaLade]

I don't think him not being clutch anymore takes away from what he was able to accomplish when he wasn't dead tired by the 4th quarter.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

I don't think him not being clutch anymore takes away from what he was able to accomplish when he wasn't dead tired by the 4th quarter.
He was NEVER clutch. Thats what you don't get. This is the same Kobe shooting wise that we always see. Sure he can't throw it down like he use to but hes getting free throws so it doesn't matter.

[RazorBaLade]

He was NEVER clutch. Thats what you don't get. This is the same Kobe shooting wise that we always see. Sure he can't throw it down like he use to but hes getting free throws so it doesn't matter.

ok, give me kobes fg in last 5 min the title runs compared to now. itll be the same?

[RazorBaLade]

Same with game winners in playoffs.. okay hes what 7-28? Whens the last time he hit one? 09? 10? He was probably near 7-18 or 7-20 or so at one point which is a hell of a lot more clutch than what he is now.

I don't see how people can say this is how hes always played, actually really a pathetic move to do that.

[RazorBaLade]

If you go by legacy as far as the accomplishments (ie, rings, etc.) then you can make that argument.

As far as impact on the court, I wouldn't have him top 10 as an actual PLAYER (which is all that really matters to me).

How many players died in barns having never seen a basketball court that would have made your top 10 player list? How accurate is that list? Legacies are about what you did, the facts.

[Nevaeh]

I'm sorry. After 15 seasons one's legacy is pretty much established. It is rare that any player's legacy can get worse after his 15th season. It basically can only improve. 20 years from now, when people are discussing Kobe's rank and career, nobody is going to be talking about what happened the other night. All they are going to bring up will be his accomplishments as they do with other retired greats.

:oldlol:
In "Happy Colors and Rainbows Land", then maybe that would be the case. However, even Wilt, for all he's done, still gets slammed. Magic gets slammed. Larry Bird still gets accused of only being considered "good" because he's white.

And of course, Alpha and Co. NEVER let us forget about Jordan's failures. Yet you somehow think Kobe's "Chucking, lead the league in shot attempts, with only 3 scoring titles to show for it" ass is gonna just ride off into the sunset? Not happenin' son.

[RazorBaLade]

:oldlol:
In "Happy Colors and Rainbows Land", then maybe that would be the case. However, even Wilt, for all he's done, still gets slammed. Magic gets slammed. Larry Bird still gets accused of only being considered "good" because he's white.

And of course, Alpha and Co. NEVER let us forget asbout Jordan's failures. Yet you somehow think Kobe's "Chucking, lead the league in shot attempts, with only 3 scoring titles to show for it" ass is gonna just ride off into the sunset? Not happenin' son.

True. These are the kinds of moments we'll point to when people say why wasn't he as good as jordan. But it stil doesnt take away from being t10

[necya]

Skip Bayless, not a reference in basketball for sure...

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Same with game winners in playoffs.. okay hes what 7-28? Whens the last time he hit one? 09? 10? He was probably near 7-18 or 7-20 or so at one point which is a hell of a lot more clutch than what he is now.

I don't see how people can say this is how hes always played, actually really a pathetic move to do that.
Probably the 2007 play off's against the Sun's in a series they lost. I'm not sure about his game winner history. Regardless he won a championship in 2010. Sort of debunks your whole conspiracy theory.

[tmacattack33]

I didn't see what Skip said.

If he's just saying that Kobe is playing very bad this year and that's why is moving Kobe down his all time list, then he has no argument. Kobe could turn into a 14 ppg, 42% FG, 2 assist player next year and it shouldn't matter. Or he could just retire and it wouldn't move him down the list either.

But if Skip had some type of argument where he said that this year's LA struggles with no Odom (and no Ariza) and a slowed down Gasol (and Artest) makes it more apparent to him that those player's were more responsible for the 2009 and 2010 Finals, then yes, he definitely has the right to say that what he is seeing right now is making him move Kobe back on his all time list.

[RazorBaLade]

Probably the 2007 play off's against the Sun's in a series they lost. I'm not sure about his game winner history. Regardless he won a championship in 2010. Sort of debunks your whole conspiracy theory.

No he rained daggers all over the Suns and nugs and spurs in 09/10. Especially the suns.

What conspiracy theory?

[HorryIsMyMVP]

No he rained daggers all over the Suns and nugs and spurs in 09/10. Especially the suns.

What conspiracy theory?
That Kobe is clutch despite the factual evidence against it. If you take enough shots EVENTUALLY you will make a few. It's simple science.

[RazorBaLade]

That Kobe is clutch despite the factual evidence against it. If you take enough shots EVENTUALLY you will make a few. It's simple science.

So if he was 7-18 or so up until his noticable athletic decline last year and hes 0-10 since then, hypothetically, it means he was never clutch he just made those because thats what happens wehn you take a lot of shots?

Maybe bronz should start shooting in the 4th q of finals games.. i mean eventually u make a few right... better than being outscored by the opposing teams star 14 to 0 every game..

[HorryIsMyMVP]

So if he was 7-18 or so up until his noticable athletic decline last year and hes 0-10 since then, hypothetically, it means he was never clutch he just made those because thats what happens wehn you take a lot of shots?

Maybe bronz should start shooting in the 4th q of finals games.. i mean eventually u make a few right... better than being outscored by the opposing teams star 14 to 0 every game..
I highly doubt he was ever 7-18. If he was he should have just peaced out. Because everything after that is embarrassingly atrocious.

[RazorBaLade]

I highly doubt he was ever 7-18. If he was he should have just peaced out.

Why would a 5 time champion leave when hes still putting up about 30 pts on 24 shots? he has more chances to win. If pau was shooting 50% this year they'd be in WCF.. Next year they can win.

[Big#50]

How stupid. So, what he's doing while on the decline of his career, is going to change what he's done in the past? The guy has 5 championships and all sorts of personal accolades. That's like saying Tim Duncan isn't one of the best PFs ever because he's old, slow and the 3rd option on his team now.

Previous accomplishments aren't nullified by current failures.
Except Duncan is back to his 08 form. Except that Tim is still the Spurs best player. Everything else u said was accurate.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Why would a 5 time champion leave when hes still putting up about 30 pts on 24 shots? he has more chances to win. If pau was shooting 50% this year they'd be in WCF.. Next year they can win.
What you are saying to me is that he missed 10 game winners in a row. :coleman: . Yeah maybe Skip was right.

[RazorBaLade]

What you are saying to me is that he missed 10 game winners in a row. :coleman: . Yeah maybe Skip was right.

Probably more like 3 or 4 game winners, the rest are to tie. His idea of a good shot to tie the game is to shoot from 3 ft behind the line. Love it.

Anyways he used to be clutch, durant took the torch... but hes not gonna keep it up. Hes ****ing 6/8 in the clutch in the playoffs lol. Next year kobe will take it back

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Probably more like 3 or 4 game winners, the rest are to tie. His idea of a good shot to tie the game is to shoot from 3 ft behind the line. Love it.

Anyways he used to be clutch, durant took the torch... but hes not gonna keep it up. Hes ****ing 6/8 in the clutch in the playoffs lol. Next year kobe will take it back
His regular season game winners all-time are 16-55. :coleman:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Except Duncan is back to his 08 form. Except that Tim is still the Spurs best player. Everything else u said was accurate.
:oldlol:

He might not even be the 2nd best

[RazorBaLade]

His regular season game winners all-time are 16-55. :coleman:

no they arent

[HorryIsMyMVP]

no they arent
http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

[jlip]

I'm sorry. After 15 seasons one's legacy is pretty much established. It is rare that any player's legacy can get worse after his 15th season. It basically can only improve. 20 years from now, when people are discussing Kobe's rank and career, nobody is going to be talking about what happened the other night. All they are going to bring up will be his accomplishments as they do with other retired greats.


LOL, people on this board argue about what Wilt and Kareem did 40 years ago, citing specific playoff series and what not.

Especially now that we have Youtube and sites that keep track of stats. Oh plenty people will talk about his failures. And there have been many, which is why he's such a polarizing figure.

His d!kkriders think it's because people just wants to "hate" on Kobe, when in fact it's because his career has been largely overinflated due to hype over what he's actually shown on the court. Great player, but never has been what he was billed to be.


:oldlol:
In "Happy Colors and Rainbows Land", then maybe that would be the case. However, even Wilt, for all he's done, still gets slammed. Magic gets slammed. Larry Bird still gets accused of only being considered "good" because he's white.

And of course, Alpha and Co. NEVER let us forget about Jordan's failures. Yet you somehow think Kobe's "Chucking, lead the league in shot attempts, with only 3 scoring titles to show for it" ass is gonna just ride off into the sunset? Not happenin' son.

I think that you all are missing my point. I began my post by saying...
After 15 seasons one's legacy is pretty much established. It is rare that any player's legacy can get worse after his 15th season. It basically can only improve.

Of course many of Kobe's failures like other legend's failures will be remembered and discussed. Yeah unimpressive performances such as the '04 and '08 Finals, failing to get out the 1st round from '05-'07, or shooting 6-24 in a game 7 will be brought up, but those moments were during his 8th - 13th seasons in the league. After 15 seasons most legends have retired, and for those who have remained in the league I can't think of one whose legend has suffered because of what they did after that point when they were supposedly in decline. I still hold that it's extremely difficult for any legendary player's (not just Kobe's) legacy to take a serious hit after year 15.

[Cali Syndicate]

Why would a 5 time champion leave when hes still putting up about 30 pts on 24 shots? he has more chances to win. If pau was shooting 50% this year they'd be in WCF.. Next year they can win.

It's Pau's fault? Who's the one making him play mainly on the high post? Cause Pau isn't there by choice.

And FYI Pau is shooting a higher percentage(48%) than Kobe(39%) and Bynum(44%), but of course it's Pau, who has been relegated as the third option, who is at fault right?

I'll side with Kobe on this thread though cause his legacy didn't take a hit from this series.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
Derek Fisher 8-20 .400
Kobe Bryant 14-56 .250

But you have to remember Kobe's stats are probably even worse after this year.

[RazorBaLade]

It's Pau's fault? Who's the one making him play mainly on the high post? Cause Pau isn't there by choice.

And FYI Pau is shooting a higher percentage(48%) than Kobe(39%) and Bynum(44%), but of course it's Pau, who has been relegated as the third option, who is at fault right?

I'll side with Kobe on this thread though cause his legacy didn't take a hit from this series.

U have bynum and paus percentages switched. Pau is shooting 44%, Bynum 48%. Kobe 39% in this series but 42 or something overall, but again he takes 3s + more fts so hes scoring more pts per shots than them.

I don't want to check bynums but hes somewhere near kobes, way betetr than paus for sure.

Kobe 29 pts on 24 shots
Pau 12 pts on 10 shots

thats inexcusable, I think Pau is the one underperforming the most. 18 mil a year for that?

[RazorBaLade]

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is my problem with these stats... Yes that stat shows hes awful in the regular season. Scroll down tho.

4-8 in the playoffs. Most clutch.

So we have a stat that has kobe 7-26 in the playoffs and its all over ESPN but then this one is 4-8.

This is so dumb. 1 possession or point change in the criteria is DRASTIC changes. And it has him 17-55 in the regular season while there are other stats that have him more like 17 out of high 30's attempts. Its all stupid.

Found something on that site to illustrate my point tho

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

08 , kobe is 45% in clutch
this year, 36%

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

Not fair to ignore that he simply doesnt have 40+ minutes a game in him anymore.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

This is my problem with these stats... Yes that stat shows hes awful in the regular season. Scroll down tho.

4-8 in the playoffs. Most clutch.

So we have a stat that has kobe 7-26 in the playoffs and its all over ESPN but then this one is 4-8.

This is so dumb. 1 possession or point change in the criteria is DRASTIC changes
Well I don't trust their play off stats lol. It says Lebron is also 4-8. Which I highly doubt but Kobe's regular season stats match ESPN and just my perception overall.

[RazorBaLade]

Well I don't trust their play off stats lol. It says Lebron is also 4-8. Which I highly doubt but Kobe's regular season stats match ESPN and just my perception overall.

Lol nice. Your perception honestly tells you that kobes only made 17 game winners in his career? He had 3 this season and like 7 or 8 in one year. Thats 7 left over 14 seasons? He has like 30+ game winners.

Wow edit 14 actually. Lebron has 17. yeah your perception says that lebron has more game winners than kobe bryant in the regular season. Get out of here with that. That stat is absurd

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Lol nice. Your perception honestly tells you that kobes only made 17 game winners in his career? He had 3 this season and like 7 or 8 in one year. Thats 7 left over 14 seasons? He has like 30+ game winners.

Wow edit 14 actually. Lebron has 17. yeah your perception says that lebron has more game winners than kobe bryant in the regular season. Get out of here with that. That stat is absurd
I believe Kobe has had 14 game winners in 6 seasons. I've been watching basketball long enough. It's a 2 month news hiatus every time he makes one. And I don't think it's happened more then 14 times in 6 years.

[RazorBaLade]

I believe Kobe has had 14 game winners in 6 seasons. I've been watching basketball long enough. It's a 2 month news hiatus every time he makes one. And I don't think it's happened more then 14 times in 6 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTuNfOk4us

People in the comments are saying that video doesn't have all of them btw. But thats 24 for ya so I would suggest you stop trusting your perception ;)

[Cali Syndicate]

U have bynum and paus percentages switched. Pau is shooting 44%, Bynum 48%. Kobe 39% in this series but 42 or something overall, but again he takes 3s + more fts so hes scoring more pts per shots than them.

I don't want to check bynums but hes somewhere near kobes, way betetr than paus for sure.

Kobe 29 pts on 24 shots
Pau 12 pts on 10 shots

thats inexcusable, I think Pau is the one underperforming the most. 18 mil a year for that?

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/umdatz/Untitled-4.jpg

Yup, so much better....

[RazorBaLade]

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/umdatz/Untitled-4.jpg

Yup, so much better....

Weird man.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Which one is right?

Oh or is that only OKC? I'm talking aobut the playoffs this year in general. 12 points on 10 shots a game still btw vs Kobe's 29 on 24.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTuNfOk4us

People in the comments are saying that video doesn't have all of them btw. But thats 24 for ya so I would suggest you stop trusting your perception ;)
Thats in 16 years. This sample is from 5 1/2 seasons.

[RazorBaLade]

Thats in 16 years. This sample is from 5 1/2 seasons.

Okay... that... makes sense. Lets cut off 3 years of a guys prime including the season he hits like 7 of em and make that the official Clutch list.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Okay... that... makes sense. Lets cut off 3 years of a guys prime including the season he hits like 7 of em and make that the official Clutch list.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

That would definetely be life time. but I believe Kobe is up to 42 game winners to this day.

36-115 31.3%

[Cali Syndicate]

Weird man.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Which one is right?

Oh or is that only OKC? I'm talking aobut the playoffs this year in general. 12 points on 10 shots a game still btw vs Kobe's 29 on 24.

Your original statement was if Pau was shooting 50% they'd be in the WCF. Him shooting 50% in the entire playoffs has nothing to do with them beating OKC.

[RazorBaLade]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

That would definetely be life time. but I believe Kobe is up to 42 game winners to this day.

36-115 31.3%

We'd be up 3-1 if he was 31% in crunch time vs okc lol. 31% on that volume is pretty good imo. Especially considering his last 2 years have been pretty bad


Your original statement was if Pau was shooting 50% they'd be in the WCF. Him shooting 50% in the entire playoffs has nothing to do with them beating OKC.

But I disagree. First of all, one more made shot and they could very well be 2-2 right now. I think they would beat OKC if they were 2-2 going into this game.

Also, don't forget, if gasol was better against denver, we are rested for game 1 and have a better chance of competing that game.

50% wouldn't guarantee WCF tho, ur right. He'd need his old average from 2 years ago of 54% to have us up 3-1 right now.

[Nevaeh]

I know I give you flack from time to time Razor, but honestly, what really did the Lakers in (if they don't advance) was losing Metta for the entire Denver series. That basically had you guys playing behind the 8-Ball, even during the games that you almost won in this series.

Don't trip it. I felt the same way back in 89 when Magic went down with a pulled hamstring in the Finals. I use to joke and tell myself "he never would have went down, if he didn't shave his goatee". Keep in mind, he rocked it for every one of his Championships.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

This just goes to show how fragile success and legacies are in the NBA. One right or wrong bounce is the difference between being a "winner" and a "loser", a Legend or a Choker. Just wish for the best tonight, and see what happens.
:cheers:

[tmacattack33]

Igoudala. Wow.

LOL Wrong thread.

[Cali Syndicate]

We'd be up 3-1 if he was 31% in crunch time vs okc lol. 31% on that volume is pretty good imo. Especially considering his last 2 years have been pretty bad



But I disagree. First of all, one more made shot and they could very well be 2-2 right now. I think they would beat OKC if they were 2-2 going into this game.

Also, don't forget, if gasol was better against denver, we are rested for game 1 and have a better chance of competing that game.

50% wouldn't guarantee WCF tho, ur right. He'd need his old average from 2 years ago of 54% to have us up 3-1 right now.

Lakers are up 3-1 if Kobe doesn't fall apart at the end in game 2 and hits some shots in game 4. Goes both ways. Pau's been passive, yes. But its the system more than anything else. He's been this facilitator role all season long with the offense playing through Bynum and Kobe.

[longtime lurker]

Lakers are up 3-1 if Kobe doesn't fall apart at the end in game 2 and hits some shots in game 4. Goes both ways. Pau's been passive, yes. But its the system more than anything else. He's been this facilitator role all season long with the offense playing through Bynum and Kobe.

I don't buy this argument good teams find a way to win. OKC is simply a better team than the Lakers top to bottom especially when the Lakers aren't playing to their potential.

[RazorBaLade]

Lakers are up 3-1 if Kobe doesn't fall apart at the end in game 2 and hits some shots in game 4. Goes both ways. Pau's been passive, yes. But its the system more than anything else. He's been this facilitator role all season long with the offense playing through Bynum and Kobe.

12 points on 10 shots from your 3rd option isn't going to get it done against OKC this year.

If kobe performed in 4th quarters he'd be having an absolute monster series. Whats more fair to expect, gasol does better than 12 pts on 10 shots or Kobe plays like its 06? I mean I wish kobe wasnt awful in the 4th, I really do, but cmon. pau is playing bad for 4 quarters, kobe only 1.

[RazorBaLade]

I know I give you flack from time to time Razor, but honestly, what really did the Lakers in (if they don't advance) was losing Metta for the entire Denver series. That basically had you guys playing behind the 8-Ball, even during the games that you almost won in this series.

Don't trip it. I felt the same way back in 89 when Magic went down with a pulled hamstring in the Finals. I use to joke and tell myself "he never would have went down, if he didn't shave his goatee". Keep in mind, he rocked it for every one of his Championships.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

This just goes to show how fragile success and legacies are in the NBA. One right or wrong bounce is the difference between being a "winner" and a "loser", a Legend or a Choker. Just wish for the best tonight, and see what happens.
:cheers:

This year is ridiculous.

CP3 trade veto'd
Howard won't come without CP3
Odom away for nothing
Beasley deal falls apart 10 min before deadline
Artest gets suspended for 7 games days before playoffs
Barnes passes away at the end of the season

We've been lucky tho so I guess its evening out.

[Nevaeh]

This year is ridiculous.

CP3 trade veto'd
Howard won't come without CP3
Odom away for nothing
Beasley deal falls apart 10 min before deadline
Artest gets suspended for 7 games days before playoffs
Barnes passes away at the end of the season

We've been lucky tho so I guess its evening out.

All of that with Mike "Everybody Makes Fun Of Me" Brown as the head coach. I will say this though. If you guys do advance, I don't wanna see NOBODY throwing him under the bus, all things considered. He's got you guys Hustlin in this round.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[Cali Syndicate]

12 points on 10 shots from your 3rd option isn't going to get it done against OKC this year.

If kobe performed in 4th quarters he'd be having an absolute monster series. Whats more fair to expect, gasol does better than 12 pts on 10 shots or Kobe plays like its 06? I mean I wish kobe wasnt awful in the 4th, I really do, but cmon. pau is playing bad for 4 quarters, kobe only 1.

Outside of not asserting himself enough on scoring, Pau hasn't been nearly as bad as everyone making him out to be.

FYI Kobe's 28.5 points on 24 shots isn't that much better.

[RazorBaLade]

All of that with Mike "Everybody Makes Fun Of Me" Brown as the head coach. I will say this though. If you guys do advance, I don't wanna see NOBODY throwing him under the bus, all things considered. He's got you guys Hustlin in this round.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

I think most people complaining about him are doing it not because hes bad so much as just we don't have the goat coach anymore. I mean, its a crazy feeling to actually not have the proper amount of timeouts or worry that the rotation isn't the best possible one.. But everyones been dealing with that besides spurs and lakers and maybe bos

He has clearly taught defense and people play hard under him and listen to him. I hope potato head stays.


Outside of not asserting himself enough on scoring, Pau hasn't been nearly as bad as everyone making him out to be.

FYI Kobe's 28.5 points on 24 shots isn't that much better.

Its actually a lot better considering efficiency dips the more you shoot.

For comparisons sake, hes playing as good as shawn marion was last year. Shawn marion didn't make 18 mil last year, did he? Is pau supposed to be better than out of prime shawn marion? Even in prime shawn marion?

[Cali Syndicate]

I think most people complaining about him are doing it not because hes bad so much as just we don't have the goat coach anymore. I mean, its a crazy feeling to actually not have the proper amount of timeouts or worry that the rotation isn't the best possible one.. But everyones been dealing with that besides spurs and lakers and maybe bos

He has clearly taught defense and people play hard under him and listen to him. I hope potato head stays.



Its actually a lot better considering efficiency dips the more you shoot.

For comparisons sake, hes playing as good as shawn marion was last year. Shawn marion didn't make 18 mil last year, did he? Is pau supposed to be better than out of prime shawn marion? Even in prime shawn marion?

hmmmmmmm.....I guess that how comparison's work. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe can't hurt his legacy at this stage. He can only add to it.

I guess he could possibly hurt his legacy in the eyes of people that massively over-rate him. But to those rational and objective people that rank him somewhere around top 10, he's not hurting anything.

Especially because he's playing ok in this series. Not great, but absolutely fine....especially considering his age.

[Da_Realist]

I don't buy this argument good teams find a way to win. OKC is simply a better team than the Lakers top to bottom especially when the Lakers aren't playing to their potential.

The Lakers just outplayed the Thunder for 3 straight games. The Thunder only look like the better team because the Lakers don't have their heads on straight at the end of games. Lakers have better ball movement, better rebounding and better defense right up until the end. The Lakers should be up 3-1.

If Kobe just plays normal basketball -- not superstar level -- just normal stuff, they'd be on the verge of an upset.