Michael Jordan @ 33 yrs of age similar to Kobe: 44/5/2 in playoffs

[gengiskhan]

44/2/5 against 10x more Physical D than OKL. The NYK of the '90s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHU8cBKMTbg)

G-train wrote this:


... at a similar age?

Just wondering. I don't recall any. He might have though.
Many posters around here think Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan was at the same age but I seem to doubt it based on these occasional terrible games he throws in. I just think that any Bulls Jordan would have dropped 40 ppg against these Hornets.

Not trolling, just thinking about Mike's amazing scoring abilities against what many deem to be a more difficult era.

-all pts coming within the flow of the game.
-17/35 FG against the best defense of the east NYK
-many FG misses are off the intangibles than the set post up jumpers.

[AngelEyes]

44/2/5 against 10x more Physical D than OKL. The NYK of the '90s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHU8cBKMTbg)

G-train wrote this:



-all pts coming within the flow of the game.
-17/35 FG against the best defense of the east NYK
-many FG misses are off the intangibles than the set post up jumpers.

Jordan was better, this is not a news flash.

[selrahc]

44/2/5 against 10x more Physical D than OKL. The NYK of the '90s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHU8cBKMTbg)

G-train wrote this:



-all pts coming within the flow of the game.
-17/35 FG against the best defense of the east NYK
-many FG misses are off the intangibles than the set post up jumpers.

i feel like u have a gay crush on kobe

[andgar923]

44/2/5 against 10x more Physical D than OKL. The NYK of the '90s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHU8cBKMTbg)

G-train wrote this:



-all pts coming within the flow of the game.
-17/35 FG against the best defense of the east NYK
-many FG misses are off the intangibles than the set post up jumpers.

One two dribbles.... bucket
Catch quick turnaround.... bucket
Catch fake, dribble.... bucket
Move without the ball get position.... bucket

Efficiency and within the offense.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

thanks for sharing that stat line.
can you give us a similar line for MJ after playing 16 years in the NBA?
TIA.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

1996 Knicks Def Rating 103.5
2012 Thunder Def Rating 103.3

Jordan's game .565 TS%... .514 eFG%
Kobe's game .582 TS%... .561 eFG%

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

One two dribbles.... bucket
Catch quick turnaround.... bucket
Catch fake, dribble.... bucket
Move without the ball get position.... bucket

Efficiency and within the offense.


Jordan didn't Bullshit.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Here is MJ's stat line from his 16th NBA season:

[andgar923]

Jordan didn't Bullshit.

For the most part he didn't have to.

yeah.. .there's times Kobe does that, but they're not as frequent. Why? he's not as good.

He doesn't read the defense as well, he doesn't react as well, he's not as quick, as smart, as skilled. Also notice how Mj didn't get the ball at the 3pt line like Kobe does far too often. If he does, he reposts, or he creates an easier opportunity for himself. MJ doesn't wait for double teams, he doesn't get himself in a position where he gets trapped, and a huge reason for all that is because he's quicker and smarter at making his decisions.

[tommyhtc]

Here is MJ's stat line from his 16th NBA season:
so now you are making fun of a player who accomplished five times as much, and did it in much fewer seasons?

how about Kobe's stat line when he is in his 16th season, still trying to chase MJ and yet fails miserably to do so(has failed for the past 16 years)

[Kiddlovesnets]

Oh why are people still comparing Kobe to Jordan when its not that close at all? Kobes a poor man's Jerry West, so instead it may be a better idea to compare West to Jordan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gotta love the MJ mythologists naively fawning over a statistically less efficient performance without even realizing it.

:oldlol:

[Odinn]

Here is MJ's stat line from his 16th NBA season:
Here is MJ's stat line from his 14th NBA season(when he was a Wizard and at his 38);
51-7-4
Or should I use 45-10-7 line?

Kobe completed his 14th season as a starter in 11/12. Am I wrong?

Sorry pal. You can't make its look better for Kobe.

[Remix]

Obviously Kobe is no Jordan, and the comparisons are dumb, but Kobe played probably his most efficient scoring game yesterday. And if you want to say Jordan's FG% is a bit skewed due to some of his shots, then you have to do the same for Kobe. How about the 3 where he got Harden in the air and drew the contact that is called about 90% of the time? Or the couple of threes he missed in the fourth when the game was out of reach?

[BallsOut]

Sefolosha is a better man defender than any player on that Knicks team, and it's not even close.

[eliteballer]

Jordan at that age only had 8 years of nba ball on his legs

[Nevaeh]

so now you are making fun of a player who accomplished five times as much, and did it in much fewer seasons?

how about Kobe's stat line when he is in his 16th season, still trying to chase MJ and yet fails miserably to do so(has failed for the past 16 years)

Yep, Kobe missed an MVP, Allstar MVP, a Scoring Title and a Championship, shooting 43% from the field unlike 33 yr old MJ. Of course YMF will remind us how dominant the "Defense" has been all year against Kobe.
:rolleyes:

[Nevaeh]

Gotta love the MJ mythologists naively fawning over a statistically less efficient performance without even realizing it.

:oldlol:

Did Jordan's Bulls win that series? Or did they Choke like ya Boy did...

[Nevaeh]

Obviously Kobe is no Jordan, and the comparisons are dumb, but Kobe played probably his most efficient scoring game yesterday. And if you want to say Jordan's FG% is a bit skewed due to some of his shots, then you have to do the same for Kobe. How about the 3 where he got Harden in the air and drew the contact that is called about 90% of the time? Or the couple of threes he missed in the fourth when the game was out of reach?

Dude waits until the very last game of the year to actually shoot like he has some sense. How sad is that sh!t?

[gengiskhan]

Gotta love the MJ mythologists naively fawning over a statistically less efficient performance without even realizing it.

:oldlol:

Typical post MJ era can mentality

MJ efficiency is still fantastic against the physicality of Oakley Harper Ewing Starks mason LJ

44 pts @ 17/35 in just 4 pts margin victory against brilliant Knicks is legendary

Compare that to shot jocking for 42 pts in 15 pts blowout loss

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Typical post MJ era can mentality

MJ efficiency is still fantastic against the physicality of Oakley Harper Ewing Starks mason LJ

44 pts @ 17/35 in just 4 pts margin victory against brilliant Knicks is legendary

Compare that to shot jocking for 42 pts in 15 pts blowout loss

You are still stuck on the concept that being hacks = great defense?

When you play like real elite defense like the early 00 Spurs/ Pistons and late 00 Celtics you don't have to bother with committing physical fouls. You can defend the shot attempt and rebound without giving the opponent a couple of free looks at the line. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did Jordan's Bulls win that series? Or did they Choke like ya Boy did...

Yes they won the series and eventually MJ eventually took home his 4th ring that year.

This was a couple of years after his mid life vacation if that helps refresh your memory.

[tmacattack33]

Umm..what is the point of this thread?

Did somebody doubt that Jordan could go for 40 in his mid 30's? If somebody did, I guess that person wasn't a bball fan in the 90s when the Bulls won 3 championship in a row the second time.

Jordan had 45, 41, 39, 38, and 37 point games in the playoffs when he was 35 years old.

[HylianNightmare]

trolls asking for jordans 16th season stats like it matters

[RazorBaLade]

How'd his 2nd best player do?

[gengiskhan]

Jordan at that age only had 8 years of nba ball on his legs

nice try kobe'tard.

You are counting "offense" only like Kobe plays completely resting on defense.

you add MJ's killer "defense" for 8 years.

Thats 16 Kobe years = 8 MJ "offensive" yrs + 8 MJ "defensive" yrs.

HINT: MJ = 3 steals titles & 1 DPOY & 2 x Runner up DPOY
....... Kobe=0 steals titles & 0 DPOYs

[Deuce Bigalow]

'96 NY Knicks: Opponents .442 FG%
'12 OKC Thunder: Opponents .427 FG%

[gengiskhan]

'96 NY Knicks: Opponents .442 FG%
'12 OKC Thunder: Opponents .427 FG%

NYK @ .442 b/c of excellent opponent shot selection.
OKL @ .427 b/c of poor opponent shot selection.

Kobe along is responsible for OKL's opposition FG%

Kobe has enough 9/25 FG games.

[swi7ch]

True GOAT vs wanna-be GOAT.

[Deuce Bigalow]

NYK @ .442 b/c of excellent opponent shot selection.
OKL @ .427 b/c of poor opponent shot selection.

Kobe along is responsible for OKL's opposition FG%

Kobe has enough 9/25 FG games.
:oldlol:
Jordan jockers cant accept facts. They continue to live in their fantasy world.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

"steals titles"

:roll:

Please don't ever change Jordan mythologists

You guys are my favorite.

[SlayerEnraged]

44/2/5 against 10x more Physical D than OKL. The NYK of the '90s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHU8cBKMTbg)

G-train wrote this:



-all pts coming within the flow of the game.
-17/35 FG against the best defense of the east NYK
-many FG misses are off the intangibles than the set post up jumpers.

If that was the best defense in the nba in 96 then I feel seriously bad for 90's mid 90's watchers.........:roll:

[gengiskhan]

"steals titles"

:roll:

Please don't ever change Jordan mythologists

You guys are my favorite.

what else are you gonna laugh at.

DPOY is next I bet.

Just cuz your boy is overrated defensively dont meant you have to belittle GOAT & undermine his accomplishments.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

what else are you gonna laugh at.

DPOY is next I bet.

Just cuz your boy is overrated defensively dont meant you have to belittle GOAT & undermine his accomplishments.

Pretty sure Kobe is exactly like Jordan in that regard. Won plenty of defensive accolades based on reputation. The difference is Kobe was never flanked by a couple of fellow all defensive team players like Rodman and Pippen. But yeah Jordan has accomplished enough that he doesnt need his disciples to hype up non awards like steals championships or my personal favorite rookie of the year award to separate him from Kobe. No other legendary player has fans who seriously cite a single dpoy award and act like its a crushing blow. Its hilarious.

[SlayerEnraged]

Pretty sure Kobe is exactly like Jordan in that regard. Won plenty of defensive accolades based on reputation. The difference is Kobe was never flanked by a couple of fellow all defensive team players like Rodman and Pippen. But yeah Jordan has accomplished enough that he doesnt need his disciples to hype up non awards like steals championships or my personal favorite rookie of the year award to separate him from Kobe. No other legendary player has fans who seriously cite a single dpoy award and act like its a crushing blow. Its hilarious.

Jordan is overrated defensively.....he's a good help defender and that's about it. Any time u look up head 2 head comparisons, MJ's opponent actually doesn't struggle vs him AT ALL. Meanwhile, U saw the 17-18ppg Affalo struggle vs Kobe and same with improved Sefelosha and Harden.....Guys get so tired trying to guard Kobe...Kobe's offense in a sense is actually his defense.

[bingoa]

Feel sad for the young'uns on here.Anyone who watched both MJ and Kobe careers would know that MJ was the better player. He's not on an entirely different level to Kobe as some MJ diehards would claim but there's a still a sizeable gap between them

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

"steals titles"

:roll:

Please don't ever change Jordan mythologists

You guys are my favorite.

A Kobe apologist calling other fans mythologists. :oldlol: Classic.

[juju151111]

1996 Knicks Def Rating 103.5
2012 Thunder Def Rating 103.3

Jordan's game .565 TS%... .514 eFG%
Kobe's game .582 TS%... .561 eFG%

:confusedshrug:
That Stating stats already proven false and show me Mj choking away two leads in 96 second round.

[gengiskhan]

Pretty sure Kobe is exactly like Jordan in that regard. Won plenty of defensive accolades based on reputation. The difference is Kobe was never flanked by a couple of fellow all defensive team players like Rodman and Pippen. But yeah Jordan has accomplished enough that he doesnt need his disciples to hype up non awards like steals championships or my personal favorite rookie of the year award to separate him from Kobe. No other legendary player has fans who seriously cite a single dpoy award and act like its a crushing blow. Its hilarious.

1987: 100+ blks/200+ stls: NOT even voted all-defensive first team. Not even runner-up DPOY

1988: 100+ blks/250+ stls. Finally voted all-defensive first team. WON dpoy.

When was Kobe ever had 100 blks, 200 stls in a single yr & still ignored for "all defensive first team"

Being full retard kobe'tard only goes so far. Need to get Psychiatric evaluation pal. good luck.

Gaaay copycat Copy Cryant hasnt done jack shyte defensively to even be mentioned with MJ, Pippen & Rodman.

Kobe is the most overrated player ever defensively in the history of the NBA. :facepalm

In an entire 16 yrs career, he never made it to Top 5 steals for a single yr. :facepalm

[Nevaeh]

Gotta love the MJ mythologists naively fawning over a statistically less efficient performance without even realizing it.

:oldlol:

The Bulls WON THE SERIES, unlike your Hero and his Merry Band of Quitters, Numbnuts. Jordan also had more assists than ya Boy as well, which most likely kept his teammates engaged and excited to play, unlike the "Stand Around Gang" that you love to root for so much.

[chazzy]

The Bulls WON THE SERIES, unlike your Hero and his Merry Band of Quitters, Numbnuts. Jordan also had more assists than ya Boy as well, which most likely kept his teammates engaged and excited to play, unlike the "Stand Around Gang" that you love to root for so much.
Greatest two assists of all time!

[Nevaeh]

Greatest two assists of all time!

Yep, 2 more than the Chucker, I see.

[blablabla]

http://forum.raucherwahnsinn.de/142785.homepagemodules.de/davepear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/breaking-news.gif

kobe is not as good as mj

[White Mamba]

so what the point? that MJ was better than KOBE? shocking.

not to mention the bulls defense was WAY better than any laker team so MJ scored more easy points, so let's not forget that.

kobe bryant is a hell of a player, but he is not MJ and he said it himself.

[PTB Fan]

MJ :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

'96 NY Knicks: Opponents .442 FG%
'12 OKC Thunder: Opponents .427 FG%

Both were 2% below league average.

[Killer_Instinct]

It's 2012 and you guys are still bitching about the same things. My god. These dudes aren't your fathers. Go find a hobby.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The Bulls WON THE SERIES, unlike your Hero and his Merry Band of Quitters, Numbnuts. Jordan also had more assists than ya Boy as well, which most likely kept his teammates engaged and excited to play, unlike the "Stand Around Gang" that you love to root for so much.

I already congratulated Jordan on winning his 4th championship at age 33. I'm not sure what other recognition you are looking for.

:confusedshrug:

[Calabis]

You are still stuck on the concept that being hacks = great defense?

When you play like real elite defense like the early 00 Spurs/ Pistons and late 00 Celtics you don't have to bother with committing physical fouls. You can defend the shot attempt and rebound without giving the opponent a couple of free looks at the line. :confusedshrug:

And you are stuck on the concept of having no damn sense, have you ever played outside ur local YMCA.....physical defense tends to wear you down during the course of the game, getting hand checked tends to reroute you......unless 42 free throw attempts(because of touch fouls is supposedly tough defense)

[Calabis]

Pretty sure Kobe is exactly like Jordan in that regard. Won plenty of defensive accolades based on reputation. The difference is Kobe was never flanked by a couple of fellow all defensive team players like Rodman and Pippen. But yeah Jordan has accomplished enough that he doesnt need his disciples to hype up non awards like steals championships or my personal favorite rookie of the year award to separate him from Kobe. No other legendary player has fans who seriously cite a single dpoy award and act like its a crushing blow. Its hilarious.

:wtf:

This guy is comical, he won his defensive player of the year, when Pippen was playing 10 minutes a game and Rodman was on the Pistons....also put up two historical statistical year 200 stls/100 blk years before Pippen was established

[Calabis]

:oldlol:
Jordan jockers cant accept facts. They continue to live in their fantasy world.

:biggums:

Kobetards ignoring facts is something you guys mastered

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And you are stuck on the concept of having no damn sense, have you ever played outside ur local YMCA.....physical defense tends to wear you down during the course of the game, getting hand checked tends to reroute you......unless 42 free throw attempts(because of touch fouls is supposedly tough defense)

I think its safe to say that Kobe has more physical wear and tear on his body at age 33 (NBA since 18.... no early 30s vacation) than Jordan. I don't believe facing some hacks instead of an actual elite defense for a couple weeks changed that.

[Calabis]

I think its safe to say that Kobe has more physical wear and tear on his body at age 33 (NBA since 18.... no early 30s vacation) than Jordan. I don't believe facing some hacks instead of an actual elite defense for a couple weeks changed that.

LMAO, yeah you never played a decent level of ball I see.....Kobe sat bench his first year, and until Shaq left he wasn't even the teams main concern, so somehow that translates in your world to more wear and tear...Jordan missed a whole damn season with a serious foot injury his second year and what the Pistons, Knicks did to him, is far greater than anything your hero has faced......when he did get a physical type defense similar to those which Jordan faced 04 Pistons, he wet the bed

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:wtf:

This guy is comical, he won his defensive player of the year, when Pippen was playing 10 minutes a game and Rodman was on the Pistons....also put up two historical statistical year 200 stls/100 blk years before Pippen was established

If the best defensive player during that year was legitimately a 6 foot 6 195 pound guard then that is one seriously one inept defensive era of 7 footers. No wonder why everyone stats were so inflated.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LMAO.....Kobe sat bench his first year, and until Shaw left he wasn't even the teams main concern, so somehow that translates in your world to more wear and tear...Jordan missed a whole damn season with a serious foot injury his second year and what he Pistons, Knicks did to him, is far greater than anything your hero has faced......when he did get a physical type defense similar to those which Jordan faceed 04 Pistons, he wet the bed

96 Knicks Def Rating 103.5
04 Pistons Def Rating 95.4

:oldlol:

[Calabis]

If the best defensive player during that year was legitimately a 6 foot 6 195 pound guard then that is one seriously one inept defensive era of 7 footers. No wonder why everyone stats were so inflated.

:facepalm

[Calabis]

96 Knicks Def Rating 103.5
04 Pistons Def Rating 95.4

:oldlol:

Ahh hell your back on the defensive rating thing...:facepalm ....you hang your hat on this garbage, when you were destroyed by another poster and other facts...yet your still at it.....like I told you're internet cafe partner...ignore all facts....teams shooting less mid range, high percentage shots, less offensive boards and taking more less efficient shots, slowed down pace, tends to make your per 100 possessions better, because it means teams are scoring less.

[Calabis]

Here are the reasons for the drop, not all this mythical garbage about great defenses from 98-04 and these so called great zones of today

Despite the dip in 3-point percentage, overall scoring is up this season. The league is scoring more than 200 points per game (200.01 to be precise) for the first time since the 1994-95 season. But that's more about pace than offensive efficiency. At 95.2 possessions per team per 48 minutes, this is the fastest pace the league has played at in the last 10 years. Efficiency is actually down from last season as the league is scoring 104.2 points per 100 possessions, down from 105.4 in 2008-09.

Along with the dip in 3-point percentage, the mid-range game continues to fade. The percentage of mid-range points (points not scored at the line, in the paint or beyond the arc) is down to just 20.6 percent. Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season. Those baskets account for 41.7 percent of all points this season, up from 40.1 percent a year ago.(So much for this zone myth of keeping perimeter guys out of the lanes)

Scoring from the mid-range area isn't a trend that good offensive teams have. Chicago scores 26.9 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 27th offensively. Detroit scores 26.6 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 26th offensively. Dallas (25.2 percent, 10th) and Portland (24.9 percent, seventh) go against the grain, thanks to the shooting of Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge.



http://www.82games.com/scorers.htm

Article from 2004: We'll begin with playing slower, which teams have become a little too good at during the David Stern era. In '84-85, the average NBA team used 104.8 possessions in a 48-minute game. By last year, the league had come to a screeching halt, using just 92.0 possessions per game. NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago. In other words, the biggest reason for the 17-point decrease in scoring isn't due to bad shooting, bad passing, changes in officiating or even the oft-cited increase in high-school aged kids entering the league. The main reason that offense has declined so much is because teams have stopped running. The change in pace alone accounts for 76.2 percent of the decline in scoring since '84-85. If the league reverted to the same pace it played at two decades ago, teams would average about 106.7 points a game.

While a slower pace is the main culprit in lower scores, that doesn't let offenses off the hook. Regardless of the speed with which the game is played, teams have become less efficient on the offensive end. In fact, even after we adjust for the fewer number of possessions teams use, there's still a 4.1 points-per-game difference that results from teams getting less out of each trip down the floor. This is noteworthy since the increased use of the 3-pointer should have produced the opposite effect.

1984-85 2003-04 Change
Points per game 110.8 93.4 -17.4
Possessions/game 104.8 92.0 -12.8
Points/possession 1.05 1.01 -.04
Field-goal pct. 49.1 43.9 -5.2
Free-throw pct. 76.4 75.2 -1.2
3-point pct. 28.1 34.7 +6.6
Off. Rebound pct. 32.9 28.7 -4.2
FTA/FGA .330 .303 -.207
Turnovers/possession .169 .154 -.015


Offenses are actually quite a bit better than those of the past when it comes to holding onto the ball. Teams turned the ball over on 16.9 percent of their possessions two decades ago, but did so just 15.4 percent of the time in '03-04. Since teams score about 1.2 points on each possession without a turnover, the difference adds about 1.9 points per game to offenses. The cause of the turnover decline is no mystery -- with teams running less, they have fewer chances for open-court miscues.

But those gains are exactly offset by a decline in offensive rebounding. In '84-85, offenses grabbed the board on 32.9 percent of missed shots, but by '03-04 that had declined to 28.7 percent. That difference has cost offenses 2.0 points per game, and it probably results from 3-point shooters being spaced too far away from the basket to have a prayer of getting an offensive board.

However, that still leaves the lion's share of the responsibility in decreased offensive efficiency at the doorstep of a common complaint: Declining shooting. Since '84-85, field-goal percentages have sunk roughly in proportion to Billy Squier's albums sales, from 49.1 percent to 43.9 percent last season. Sharp minds in the audience will quickly note that the 3-pointer is a much more prevalent part of modern offenses (teams try more than five times as many as they did two decades ago), so we should expect field-goal percentages to be lower in return for the greater payoff. Yet even allowing for the rise of the 3-pointer, shooting is still in the dumpster. Teams averaged 0.99 points for each field-goal attempt in 1984-85, but just 0.94 last season. That five-hundreths of a percentage point difference is enough to subtract 2.9 points a game from offenses.

That goes to underscore that the 3-pointer has, on balance, not had much of an effect. On the one hand, players shoot the long bomb much more accurately than twenty years ago -- improving from 28.1 percent to 34.7 percent -- which has added 1.9 points per game to scoring.

But there's a hidden cost to all of those 3s. Because they're bombing away instead of going to the rim, teams are getting to the line much less often. Teams took 0.33 free-throws per field-goal attempt back then, but only 0.30 last season, a change that cost teams about 1.7 points a game -- giving back nearly all of the difference from the increase in 3-point accuracy.

Our study tells us two things about the state of scoring. First, pace is a much bigger factor than the decline in offensive efficiency. Second, the main cause of the dip in efficiency is the sharp drop in 2-point field-goal percentage.

[Calabis]

continued............

Article from 2001: In addition, the typical player nowadays generally dedicates more time to weight training, perhaps to the detriment of additional shooting drills. And never since the NBA added its 3-point line back in 1979-'80 have treys been hoisted more frequently by more pedestrian shooters, driving down shooting accuracy league-wide. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that Boston's Antoine Walker -- a post-up forward to be sure -- has attempted more three-pointers this season (196) than all but two players in the entire league.

Also factoring into the decline in offensive output is the increase in college underclassmen -- many of whom arrive at the "Next Level" ill-prepared with solid basketball foundations. In the five NBA Drafts between 1986 and 1990, 58 underclassmen declared themselves eligible. In the NBA Drafts from 1996 to 2000, the number rose to 153. Perhaps not coincidentally, three of the four-worst league-wide shooting seasons in history occurred in this span.

From a Laker Blog: The NBA will never admit to it publically, but zone defense was primarily legalized to contain Shaquille O'neal. Shaquille simply could not be guarded by one man, it was just not possible. It's a lopsided mismatch regardless of whoever is guarding him. Add Kobe Bryant to that team and it is plain to see that the league would be dominated for a long time to come. Therefor, in order to even out the playing field, the league legalized zone defense.

Yet since 2004 Shaq shot 60+ percent 5 times, 59 2 times, prior to this his high was .599 one time(Zone didn't stop Shaq's efficiency)

Zone Myth...as of Dec 22, 2005

Here's a look at the NBA's top five in scoring points in the paint (through Tuesday):

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Zone Defense Makes it harder to get into the mid to close range area for perimeter stars: From NBA.COM % of pts scored INSIDE of 15 ft or FT line 2010

Tyriq Evans (a rookie): 82%..714 pts on layups/dunks
D-Wade: 75%..762 pts on dunks/layups
Carmelo: 71%..652 pts on dunks/layups
Durant: 70%..602 pts on layups/dunks
LBJ: 68%..754 pts on layups/dunks
Kobe: 66%..460 pts on layups/dunks
B. Roy: 63%..346 pts on layups/dunks

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

SJ: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

SJ: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

You also remember when NBA rules expert Rod Thorn said this after the handchecking rule was changed and the defensive 3 second rule:"It's more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball," Thorn said of the change. "I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters."

.....Hmmm so somehow they made it tougher to play defense, but its much harder to shoot a good percentage :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

96 Knicks Def Rating 103.5
04 Pistons Def Rating 95.4

:oldlol:
Isn'tthis the same stat that had the 03 teams that didn't even make the playoffs better defensivly then 96 bulls. Also the 3 point line was closer back then so opponents Fg% is screwed

[Da_Realist]

Here are the reasons for the drop, not all this mythical garbage about great defenses from 98-04 and these so called great zones of today

Despite the dip in 3-point percentage, overall scoring is up this season. The league is scoring more than 200 points per game (200.01 to be precise) for the first time since the 1994-95 season. But that's more about pace than offensive efficiency. At 95.2 possessions per team per 48 minutes, this is the fastest pace the league has played at in the last 10 years. Efficiency is actually down from last season as the league is scoring 104.2 points per 100 possessions, down from 105.4 in 2008-09.

Along with the dip in 3-point percentage, the mid-range game continues to fade. The percentage of mid-range points (points not scored at the line, in the paint or beyond the arc) is down to just 20.6 percent. Points in the paint are higher than they've been since the league started tracking them in the 2000-01 season. Those baskets account for 41.7 percent of all points this season, up from 40.1 percent a year ago.(So much for this zone myth of keeping perimeter guys out of the lanes)

Scoring from the mid-range area isn't a trend that good offensive teams have. Chicago scores 26.9 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 27th offensively. Detroit scores 26.6 percent of its points from mid-range and ranks 26th offensively. Dallas (25.2 percent, 10th) and Portland (24.9 percent, seventh) go against the grain, thanks to the shooting of Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge.



http://www.82games.com/scorers.htm

Article from 2004: We'll begin with playing slower, which teams have become a little too good at during the David Stern era. In '84-85, the average NBA team used 104.8 possessions in a 48-minute game. By last year, the league had come to a screeching halt, using just 92.0 possessions per game. NBA teams have nearly 13 chances a game fewer than they did two decades ago. In other words, the biggest reason for the 17-point decrease in scoring isn't due to bad shooting, bad passing, changes in officiating or even the oft-cited increase in high-school aged kids entering the league. The main reason that offense has declined so much is because teams have stopped running. The change in pace alone accounts for 76.2 percent of the decline in scoring since '84-85. If the league reverted to the same pace it played at two decades ago, teams would average about 106.7 points a game.

While a slower pace is the main culprit in lower scores, that doesn't let offenses off the hook. Regardless of the speed with which the game is played, teams have become less efficient on the offensive end. In fact, even after we adjust for the fewer number of possessions teams use, there's still a 4.1 points-per-game difference that results from teams getting less out of each trip down the floor. This is noteworthy since the increased use of the 3-pointer should have produced the opposite effect.

1984-85 2003-04 Change
Points per game 110.8 93.4 -17.4
Possessions/game 104.8 92.0 -12.8
Points/possession 1.05 1.01 -.04
Field-goal pct. 49.1 43.9 -5.2
Free-throw pct. 76.4 75.2 -1.2
3-point pct. 28.1 34.7 +6.6
Off. Rebound pct. 32.9 28.7 -4.2
FTA/FGA .330 .303 -.207
Turnovers/possession .169 .154 -.015


Offenses are actually quite a bit better than those of the past when it comes to holding onto the ball. Teams turned the ball over on 16.9 percent of their possessions two decades ago, but did so just 15.4 percent of the time in '03-04. Since teams score about 1.2 points on each possession without a turnover, the difference adds about 1.9 points per game to offenses. The cause of the turnover decline is no mystery -- with teams running less, they have fewer chances for open-court miscues.

But those gains are exactly offset by a decline in offensive rebounding. In '84-85, offenses grabbed the board on 32.9 percent of missed shots, but by '03-04 that had declined to 28.7 percent. That difference has cost offenses 2.0 points per game, and it probably results from 3-point shooters being spaced too far away from the basket to have a prayer of getting an offensive board.

However, that still leaves the lion's share of the responsibility in decreased offensive efficiency at the doorstep of a common complaint: Declining shooting. Since '84-85, field-goal percentages have sunk roughly in proportion to Billy Squier's albums sales, from 49.1 percent to 43.9 percent last season. Sharp minds in the audience will quickly note that the 3-pointer is a much more prevalent part of modern offenses (teams try more than five times as many as they did two decades ago), so we should expect field-goal percentages to be lower in return for the greater payoff. Yet even allowing for the rise of the 3-pointer, shooting is still in the dumpster. Teams averaged 0.99 points for each field-goal attempt in 1984-85, but just 0.94 last season. That five-hundreths of a percentage point difference is enough to subtract 2.9 points a game from offenses.

That goes to underscore that the 3-pointer has, on balance, not had much of an effect. On the one hand, players shoot the long bomb much more accurately than twenty years ago -- improving from 28.1 percent to 34.7 percent -- which has added 1.9 points per game to scoring.

But there's a hidden cost to all of those 3s. Because they're bombing away instead of going to the rim, teams are getting to the line much less often. Teams took 0.33 free-throws per field-goal attempt back then, but only 0.30 last season, a change that cost teams about 1.7 points a game -- giving back nearly all of the difference from the increase in 3-point accuracy.

Our study tells us two things about the state of scoring. First, pace is a much bigger factor than the decline in offensive efficiency. Second, the main cause of the dip in efficiency is the sharp drop in 2-point field-goal percentage.

There's a reason why DRtg works for Yao Ming's Foot. It's simple. He's sees numbers...can understand that one set of numbers is lower than the other and he's happy. Watching and analyzing the game...or at least understanding the context into which those numbers reside is way too much for him. LOL if you think he's capable of understanding what you just posted. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

continued............

Article from 2001: In addition, the typical player nowadays generally dedicates more time to weight training, perhaps to the detriment of additional shooting drills. And never since the NBA added its 3-point line back in 1979-'80 have treys been hoisted more frequently by more pedestrian shooters, driving down shooting accuracy league-wide. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that Boston's Antoine Walker -- a post-up forward to be sure -- has attempted more three-pointers this season (196) than all but two players in the entire league.

Also factoring into the decline in offensive output is the increase in college underclassmen -- many of whom arrive at the "Next Level" ill-prepared with solid basketball foundations. In the five NBA Drafts between 1986 and 1990, 58 underclassmen declared themselves eligible. In the NBA Drafts from 1996 to 2000, the number rose to 153. Perhaps not coincidentally, three of the four-worst league-wide shooting seasons in history occurred in this span.

From a Laker Blog: The NBA will never admit to it publically, but zone defense was primarily legalized to contain Shaquille O'neal. Shaquille simply could not be guarded by one man, it was just not possible. It's a lopsided mismatch regardless of whoever is guarding him. Add Kobe Bryant to that team and it is plain to see that the league would be dominated for a long time to come. Therefor, in order to even out the playing field, the league legalized zone defense.

Yet since 2004 Shaq shot 60+ percent 5 times, 59 2 times, prior to this his high was .599 one time(Zone didn't stop Shaq's efficiency)

Zone Myth...as of Dec 22, 2005

Here's a look at the NBA's top five in scoring points in the paint (through Tuesday):

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Zone Defense Makes it harder to get into the mid to close range area for perimeter stars: From NBA.COM % of pts scored INSIDE of 15 ft or FT line 2010

Tyriq Evans (a rookie): 82%..714 pts on layups/dunks
D-Wade: 75%..762 pts on dunks/layups
Carmelo: 71%..652 pts on dunks/layups
Durant: 70%..602 pts on layups/dunks
LBJ: 68%..754 pts on layups/dunks
Kobe: 66%..460 pts on layups/dunks
B. Roy: 63%..346 pts on layups/dunks

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

SJ: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

SJ: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

You also remember when NBA rules expert Rod Thorn said this after the handchecking rule was changed and the defensive 3 second rule:"It's more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball," Thorn said of the change. "I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters."

.....Hmmm so somehow they made it tougher to play defense, but its much harder to shoot a good percentage :confusedshrug:
Lol stu basically admitted they wanted more and easier scoring. Lmaoo

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lol stu basically admitted they wanted more and easier scoring. Lmaoo

Updated: Monday November 1, 2004 3:25PM

Of course they did. It was at the peak of the dead ball era of offensive basketball.

Once again you guys fail to realize that copy and pasting articles that explain a decline in raw scoring numbers doesn't apply to defensive rating a per possession stat.

[juju151111]

Updated: Monday November 1, 2004 3:25PM

Of course they did. It was at the peak of the dead ball era of offensive basketball.

Once again you guys fail to realize that copy and pasting articles that explain a decline in raw scoring numbers doesn't apply to defensive rating a per possession stat.
Exactly why people like Kobe had screwed stats in 06. Smh and Seating stat is useless. U will never get me to believe garbage teams from 03 is better then a Phil,Mj,PIp,Rodman led bulls team defensivly. The 3 point line also messed up stats

[Calabis]

Updated: Monday November 1, 2004 3:25PM

Of course they did. It was at the peak of the dead ball era of offensive basketball.

Once again you guys fail to realize that copy and pasting articles that explain a decline in raw scoring numbers doesn't apply to defensive rating a per possession stat.

DEF EFF: Defensive Efficiency - the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions.

Defensive Rating points allowed per 100 posessions.[/B]

:confusedshrug: who's right?

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/year/2005

[Calabis]

Exactly why people like Kobe had screwed stats in 06. Smh and Seating stat is useless. U will never get me to believe garbage teams from 03 is better then a Phil,Mj,PIp,Rodman led bulls team defensivly. The 3 point line also messed up stats

Yeah dude has no concept :banghead:

He doesn't like looking at offensive ratings, which is the same formula, which clearly shows offenses were much better, when that's mentioned he cries foul

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah dude has no concept :banghead:

He doesn't like looking at offensive ratings, which is the same formula, which clearly shows offenses were much better, when that's mentioned he cries foul

The league average offense rating = the league average defensive rating

:facepalm

[Replay32]

thanks for sharing that stat line.
can you give us a similar line for MJ after playing 16 years in the NBA?
TIA.

According to Kobe lovers, Kobe's 1st 3 years didn't count. He came in the league straight out of high school, had to play with shaq and didn't start his 1st 2 years. This year was really Kobe's 13th season. *sarcasm*

[bwink23]

I think its safe to say that Kobe has more physical wear and tear on his body at age 33 (NBA since 18.... no early 30s vacation) than Jordan. I don't believe facing some hacks instead of an actual elite defense for a couple weeks changed that.


Jordan was an athletic cyborg and Kobe was just above average...OF COURSE Kobe is gonna have more wear and TEAR...Hence Kobe had like 3 knee surgeries before Jordan ever had one....at 39 years old.....:pimp:

[bwink23]

The league average offense rating = the league average defensive rating

:facepalm


Here's some basketball 101 for you:

1991 Champion Chicago Bulls with a young pippen and prime Jordan, BJ armstrong, and Horace Grant....have a WORSE DEFENSIVE RATING, than 2003 Washington Wizards with an old-ass Jordan and defenseless Jerry Stackhouse.


This is a COMMON SENSE question kid. Who was better defensively??



I am gonna ram this shit up your ass every time you bring that garbage up.

[Nevaeh]

Don't let that bitter Stan YMF make you give him the "Jlauber treatment" Calabas (long ass paragraphs to prove a point). He knows his boy is known to choke, even against sh!tty defensive teams.

Ask him how both Durant and Lebron managed to be in the top 25 in FG% percentage this year, while his Hero languished in the 81st spot, even though they all faced the same damn teams.
:rolleyes: