Has Kevin Durant already surpassed Scottie Pippen?

[StateOfMind12]

Would you guys say that Kevin Durant has already surpassed Scottie Pippen as a player, like in terms of peak/prime/at their best?

I know the Pippen is ranked higher in the all-time list due to the longevity, more rings, etc. but what about as individual players? Is Durant already better than Pippen ever was?

["Jesus"]

Stupid thread is stupid

[Derivative]

kevin durant is a better scorer and more clutch than pippen

pippen is better at everything else

[Shepseskaf]

Let Durant win some rings, and then make comparisons like this.

[L.Kizzle]

no.

He hasn't even passed Alex English yet.

[StateOfMind12]

Let Durant win some rings, and then make comparisons like this.
Like I said, I'm not comparing them in the all-time lists due to Pippen's obvious accomplishments and longevity but I am comparing them in terms of their peak play and at their absolute best.

For example, Lebron probably surpassed Pippen at their absolute peaks in like 2007 or 2008 but we all know Pippen was probably ranked above him in the all-time list still.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's a better scorer (by a large margin, I'll admit). But that's it.

Give me SP.

[inclinerator]

ill answer this question in 1 month

[Clippersfan86]

Not even close. Remember Pippen is Lebron Lite. He filled a stat sheet in crazy ways. Let's compare one of each's better seasons.

Pippen: 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg on 49 percent shooting to go with ELITE defense.

Durant: 28 ppg, 8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.2 bpg on 49.5 percent shooting to go with SOLID defense.


The main thing here is we are comparing a second option to a first option. Pippen could have scored 25 ppg no problem as a main option with same amount of shots.

[Shepseskaf]

Like I said, I'm not comparing them in the all-time lists due to Pippen's obvious accomplishments and longevity but I am comparing them in terms of their peak play and at their absolute best.

For example, Lebron probably surpassed Pippen at their absolute peaks in like 2007 or 2008 but we all know Pippen was probably ranked above him in the all-time list still.
I understood what you meant. All measures of greatness depend on how a player responds on a championship level. We don't know how Durant will do in that situation, should the Thunder get that far.

I suspect he'll be fine, but until he creates some history there, then comparisons to Pippen are premature. We already are aware that Durant is way more advanced offensively, but the rest we just don't know.

[bizil]

Would you guys say that Kevin Durant has already surpassed Scottie Pippen as a player, like in terms of peak/prime/at their best?

I know the Pippen is ranked higher in the all-time list due to the longevity, more rings, etc. but what about as individual players? Is Durant already better than Pippen ever was?

To answer your question YES! KD hasn't even hit his prime yet, which is very scary. But in terms of peak value and where KD is at now then yes he's better than Pip already. I think most of the time, the premier players in the L have the alpha dog gene. As much heat as Lebron catches, he is an alpha dog. His scoring excellence dictates it. But he's not the CLOSER that KD, Melo, Dirk, or Kobe is. Pip as great as he was, wasn't an alpha dog. He's not really the kind of player that was ever that kind of scoring threat or mentality. He was a very good scorer and an epic all around force. Pip, Stocton, Kidd, Rondo, Rodman, Russell, etc. are the rare bird that are legends without being alpha dog type scoring guys.

Now of course GOAT wise, KD isn't on Pip's level. And the GOAT list is what counts the most.

[alwaysunny]

As a player, I believe he's already better than Pippen ever was. Comparisons being made between Durant and LeBron should clear that up as the talent gap between those 2 is much smaller than LeBron and Pippen..at least according to those who think LeBron >>> Pippen, which I agree with. Durant is currently leading his team to be one of the favorites to win it all. While still young, he's proven enough for us to see where he's at. He will undoubtedly go down as one of the all time greats.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I understood what you meant. All measures of greatness depend on how a player responds on a championship level. We don't know how Durant will do in that situation, should the Thunder get that far.

I suspect he'll be fine, but until he creates some history there, then comparisons to Pippen are premature. We already are aware that Durant is way more advanced offensively, but the rest we just don't know.

Bold should read, scoring. Offensively includes playmaking and offensive rebounding - areas Pippen was clearly better in.

[Upgrayedd]

Prime Pippen in todays league would be better than LeBron and Durant.

[Clippersfan86]

As a player, I believe he's already better than Pippen ever was. Comparisons being made between Durant and LeBron should clear that up as the talent gap between those 2 is much smaller than LeBron and Pippen..at least according to those who think LeBron >>> Pippen, which I agree with. Durant is currently leading his team to be one of the favorites to win it all. While still young, he's proven enough for us to see where he's at. He will undoubtedly go down as one of the all time greats.

You're a great poster man but you need to remember the greatness of Pippen's defense, playmaking and rebounding.

[LT Ice Cream]

In some ways, he has passed Scottie Pippen. Durant is a go-to guy who you can rely on in late-game situations or to take the last shot. That counts for a lot, and that's something Pippen couldn't do.
So I don't know which player you can say is better. They're both really unique players.

[Jasper]

OP post should realize when Scottie had the option to drive to the hoop and win the game from 3 feet , he took it , instead of a Durant step 3 pointer from 35 ' away with felt pressure from 10 feet.

[Shepseskaf]

Bold should read, scoring. Offensively includes playmaking and offensive rebounding - areas Pippen was clearly better in.
I hear you. I can agree with that.

[alwaysunny]

Prime Pippen in todays league would be better than LeBron and Durant.

no :lol

[StateOfMind12]

The main thing here is we are comparing a second option to a first option. Pippen could have scored 25 ppg no problem as a main option with same amount of shots.
:facepalm The numbers you listed for Pippen's season was when he was the main option on the team. Pippen was not even close to the scorer Durant was, not close at all.


He's a better scorer (by a large margin, I'll admit). But that's it.

Give me SP.
Doesn't the same also work between Pippen and Dirk? Would you say Pippen at his peak was better than Dirk at his then?

[Ketchup]

He's quite comfortably better than him as a player. Whether or not he'll be as successful is up for debate.

[Clippersfan86]

:facepalm The numbers you listed for Pippen's season was when he was the main option on the team. Pippen was not even close to the scorer Durant was, not close at all.


Doesn't the same also work between Pippen and Dirk? Would you say Pippen at his peak was better than Dirk at his then?

I posted that statline due to all around stats. He had multiple seasons in between 20-22 ppg. Reality is this guy is better man. I don't think you're remembering or even know how good Pippen's defense and rebounding was for his size. Dude also was the elite playmaking point forward like Lebron.

[Sarcastic]

Durant is a better player than Pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm The numbers you listed for Pippen's season was when he was the main option on the team. Pippen was not even close to the scorer Durant was, not close at all.


Doesn't the same also work between Pippen and Dirk? Would you say Pippen at his peak was better than Dirk at his then?

Like Durant, Dirk is a much better scorer and finisher in crunch-time (again, just from a pure scoring standpoint). Scotty is a special player though. As someone else stated - a unique talent. I'd much rather build my teams around Pip because of his all-around play, leadership and selflessness. He simply brings more to the table.

The jury is still out on Durant though. He may have an epic conference finals and/or finals run that could be on par with some of the best. Maybe even better. We'll just have to see. His defense this playoffs alone has really impressed me.

[NumberSix]

6 rings

[Sarcastic]

6 rings

Durant playing Robin to Jordan would win 10 rings.


If we are using the rings argument, then Horry > Pippen, right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Durant playing Robin to Jordan would win 10 rings.


If we are using the rings argument, then Horry > Pippen, right?

:facepalm

At least we know who ACTUALLY watched Pippen play.

[Clippersfan86]

Durant playing Robin to Jordan would win 10 rings.


If we are using the rings argument, then Horry > Pippen, right?


6

[Sarcastic]

:facepalm

At least we know who ACTUALLY watched Pippen play.

I watched him play throughout the 90s. He's not a better player than Durant.

KD has 3 scoring titles already and is 23 years old. Pippen scored 20+ only 3 times in his entire career.

Durant is a #1 option. Pippen is a #2.

[Sarcastic]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]6

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I watched him play throughout the 90s. He's not a better player than Durant.

KD has 3 scoring titles already and is 23 years old. Pippen scored 20+ only 3 times in his entire career.

Durant is a #1 option. Pippen is a #2.

LOL, Pippen isnt considered an all-time great because of his scoring. Thats the point. Why ignore his all-around contributions?

[Clippersfan86]

What part of NumberSix's



post did you not understand?

I'm just showing you your stupidity when you say Durant is already better than Pippen was or has surpassed him. Durant gives you 6-7 more ppg sure.. but he's significantly worse as a passer/playmaker, defender and rebounder.

[Sarcastic]

I'm just showing you your stupidity when you say Durant is already better than Pippen was or has surpassed him. Durant gives you 6-7 more ppg sure.. but he's significantly worse as a passer/playmaker, defender and rebounder.

Do you know what is harder than making all defensive team?

Winning a scoring title.



Those 6 or 7 points per game is what separates the elite from the mere star.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Pippen was a far more rounded player than KD. I supposed Durant has the potential to be better, but at this juncture he's not even close.

[StateOfMind12]

I posted that statline due to all around stats. He had multiple seasons in between 20-22 ppg. Reality is this guy is better man. I don't think you're remembering or even know how good Pippen's defense and rebounding was for his size. Dude also was the elite playmaking point forward like Lebron.
I was referring to how you said Pippen could score 25 ppg easily if he was the #1 option and I was telling you how Pippen was the #1 option in the stats you posted and he only scored 22 ppg. Pippen is not even close to the type of scorer Durant is at all. Pippen is not even close to Durant as a shooter either in any aspect (long range, mid-range, FT line, etc.).

Scoring is the most important attribute/aspect in the game. You act as if rebounding, playmaking, defense, etc. is worth the same and it's not. You win games by outscoring the other team and Durant is by far superior than Pippen at scoring and it's not even close.

[Clippersfan86]

I was referring to how you said Pippen could score 25 ppg easily if he was the #1 option and I was telling you how Pippen was the #1 option in the stats you posted and he only scored 22 ppg. Pippen is not even close to the type of scorer Durant is at all. Pippen is not even close to Durant as a shooter either in any aspect (long range, mid-range, FT line, etc.).

Scoring is the most important attribute/aspect in the game. You act as if rebounding, playmaking, defense, etc. is worth the same and it's not. You win games by outscoring the other team and Durant is by far superior than Pippen at scoring and it's not even close.

:no: dead wrong. Scoring is NOT the most important aspect in basketball. I believe rebounding, scoring, passing and defense all carry the same exact value. Kevin Durant would be lucky to average 15 points a game in a series against Pippen. If you don't see the value in that I'm not sure what to say.

[Sarcastic]

Pippen is not a 20ppg scorer for his career. He is a 16ppg scorer.

Durant is a 26ppg scorer for his career. Do you know how many players score more than 26 ppg for their career? You can count them on less than 2 hands, and Pippen isn't better than any one of them.

[Clippersfan86]

Pippen was a far more rounded player than KD. I supposed Durant has the potential to be better, but at this juncture he's not even close.

Exactly. Not even a logical discussion. Bad enough people are saying it's close but the 3 or 4 people picking Durant :facepalm .

[Timmy D for MVP]

Scoring is the most important attribute/aspect in the game. You act as if rebounding, playmaking, defense, etc. is worth the same and it's not. You win games by outscoring the other team and Durant is by far superior than Pippen at scoring and it's not even close.

:biggums:

So then why is Anthony Davis the far and away number one prospect in this year's draft?

[ihatetimthomas]

I think Scottie is still ranked ahead of Durant, and he is the more versatile and complete player. But if you asked me today who I would want if I was starting a franchise, give me Durant. Durant is a true franchise player. I know I know, people will talk about Pip and the Bulls when MJ went down and how he played great. This is true, but Durant is a player who can truly lead and take a team on his back in crunch time.

[Clippersfan86]

Pippen is not a 20ppg scorer for his career. He is a 16ppg scorer.

Durant is a 26ppg scorer for his career. Do you know how many players score more than 26 ppg for their career? You can count them on less than 2 hands, and Pippen is better than any one of them.

Who said that? Scottie in his peak years let's say from 91-98... averaged about 20 ppg. Nobody said he's a career 20 ppg scorer, just that he's had multiple 20+ ppg seasons. If the guy put up 15 ppg in his prime you can knock it. To put up an average of 20 ppg over 8 seasons though as a SECOND OPTION to go with ELITE defense, ELITE playmaking, ELITE rebounding for his position? Pippen>>>>>>>Durant.

[Clippersfan86]

I think Scottie is still ranked ahead of Durant, and he is the more versatile and complete player. But if you asked me today who I would want if I was starting a franchise, give me Durant. Durant is a true franchise player. I know I know, people will talk about Pip and the Bulls when MJ went down and how he played great. This is true, but Durant is a player who can truly lead and take a team on his back in crunch time.

Exactly. Durant definitely CAN be better and he's more suitable to build around going forward probably. That being said the BETTER PLAYER is no question Pippen.

[StateOfMind12]

:biggums:

So then why is Anthony Davis the far and away number one prospect in this year's draft?
I'm assuming because there is no Kevin Durant-lite scorer in this year's draft and I don't think Anthony Davis is incapable of scoring either.


:no: dead wrong. Scoring is NOT the most important aspect in basketball. I believe rebounding, scoring, passing and defense all carry the same exact value. Kevin Durant would be lucky to average 15 points a game in a series against Pippen. If you don't see the value in that I'm not sure what to say.
There is a reason why star power is almost a necessity in order to win a championship in today's league. It is because star players can score at any given moment especially in the closing seconds and in the playoffs when the game slows down.

It's easier to find another defensive standout than a scorer machine.

[ihatetimthomas]

Exactly. Durant definitely CAN be better and he's more suitable to build around going forward probably. That being said the BETTER PLAYER is no question Pippen.

Well, in Pip's prime, I still go with Durant starting a team. Not just for the potential of the future, but because he is a true franchise player now.

[Clippersfan86]

Well, in Pip's prime, I still go with Durant starting a team. Not just for the potential of the future, but because he is a true franchise player now.

Durant is a go to scorer and clutch player so that's understandable. Doesn't mean he's a better player though which is what OP is suggesting.

[blacknapalm]

if scoring were so important, russell wouldn't be in the top 10. pippen wouldn't be a top 50 player. rodman and gilmore wouldn't arguably be in the top 50 and the detroit pistons with wallace on it don't win a championship

[Sarcastic]

Who said that? Scottie in his peak years let's say from 91-98... averaged about 20 ppg. Nobody said he's a career 20 ppg scorer, just that he's had multiple 20+ ppg seasons. If the guy put up 15 ppg in his prime you can knock it. To put up an average of 20 ppg over 8 seasons though as a SECOND OPTION to go with ELITE defense, ELITE playmaking, ELITE rebounding for his position? Pippen>>>>>>>Durant.

We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I'm assuming because there is no Kevin Durant-lite scorer in this year's draft and I don't think Anthony Davis is incapable of scoring either.

... WHAT!?

Okay, hold on:

In this, considered the deepest draft in years, there are plenty of flat out scorers. But even if there weren't we've seen how the league goes about this in their minds.

We know this because Kevin Durant was selected 2nd behind the elite defensive player. Now 20/20 shows us that it was the wrong move obviously, but the fact that it happened shows how much importance is in defense.

[ihatetimthomas]

if scoring were so important, russell wouldn't be in the top 10. pippen wouldn't be a top 50 player. rodman and gilmore wouldn't arguably be in the top 50 and the detroit pistons with wallace on it don't win a championship

What kind of comment is this? The top 10 has some of the best scorers of all time. Actually most of them are offensive players where scoring was their best attribute.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Exactly. Not even a logical discussion. Bad enough people are saying it's close but the 3 or 4 people picking Durant :facepalm .

I don't blame the OP for thinking he's better. Not very many have the ability to do what KD does late in games. Guy is 10-23 in game-tying or go-ahead baskets in the last 24 seconds of the 4th and/or OT this season (including the playoffs). Crazy stuff.

I just don't think people give Pippen (or any great all-around player for that matter) his due credit for being elite in other areas besides scoring.


I always thought MJ and Scottie were like Crockett and Tubbs. Crockett got most of the attention, and deservedly so ... but he's still not taking Calderone down without Tubbs. Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994 during MJ's first sabbatical. Scottie (20.8 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency.

Truth.

[Sarcastic]

Anthony Davis will go number 1 because he is tall, plays defense, and used to be a guard so he has ball handling skills. He is not being drafted #1 purely on defense alone.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Well, in Pip's prime, I still go with Durant starting a team. Not just for the potential of the future, but because he is a true franchise player now.

Naw I disagree because it's actually rarer to find a 2nd banana like Pip than it is to find an alpha like Durant.

Now I say this because I think BOTH are extremely rare, but there has only ever been one Pippen.

[blacknapalm]

We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.

i'll agree with this part. that bulls team knew how to win, what their roles were and were experienced. pippen had a very good season but it's not like he was considered a top 3 player back then. it didn't help when he sat out of a late playoff game because he was mad p-jax drew up a play for kukoc. that's not exactly what you want your leader to be doing in a heated playoff game

[Clippersfan86]

We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.

I'm not even saying he is a legit first option for a championship contender. Just that he's no slouch when it comes to scoring. Durant is absolutely the more gifted/better scorer... but that gap is smaller than the combined gap of Pippen's defense/rebounding/passing over Durant. BTW KD has averaged 30 ppg already for one season.

You didn't say Durant will be better than Pippen. You said he IS better than prime Pippen.

[StateOfMind12]

... WHAT!?

Okay, hold on:

In this, considered the deepest draft in years, there are plenty of flat out scorers. But even if there weren't we've seen how the league goes about this in their minds.

We know this because Kevin Durant was selected 2nd behind the elite defensive player. Now 20/20 shows us that it was the wrong move obviously, but the fact that it happened shows how much importance is in defense.
Oden had strong potential on the offensive end though and was suppose to be the next dominant Center with Yao and Dwight in the league (at the time). He was somewhat raw on offense but he had strong potential. You always go with bigs over perimeter players anyways. If Oden was nothing more than a Ben Wallace type player then I don't think Oden would have been drafted over Durant or even in the top 3-5.

I think this upcoming draft class sucks by the way. I don't know why people are creaming their pants about it.


We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.
Durant already averaged 30 ppg in '09-'10.

[Sarcastic]

Naw I disagree because it's actually rarer to find a 2nd banana like Pip than it is to find an alpha like Durant.

Now I say this because I think BOTH are extremely rare, but there has only ever been one Pippen.

Finding the alpha guy is the hardest thing to do in basketball.

[blacknapalm]

What kind of comment is this? The top 10 has some of the best scorers of all time. Actually most of them are offensive players where scoring was their best attribute.

of course the top 10 has some of the best scorers ever. i chose guys that were not known for their offensive game yet still had huge impacts on the game. rodman was never polished offensively and could arguably be considered a top 50 player. and that is because of everything but scoring...his impact in rebounding and defense was unparalleled on almost every night. that's the only point i was making. a career 7.3 ppg scorer is arguably a top 50 player ever....

[Timmy D for MVP]

Anthony Davis will go number 1 because he is tall, plays defense, and used to be a guard so he has ball handling skills. He is not being drafted #1 purely on defense alone.

No one is ever drafted number one based on one thing.

But you'd have to be stupid to think that it wasn't very heavily because of his defense. If he wasn't the defender he is he'd be a late lottery pick, and considered a project big.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Finding the alpha guy is the hardest thing to do in basketball.

Name me one other player like Pippen that could do what he did and still fit into that system the way he did.

[Timmy D for MVP]

StateofMind lemme switch it up a bit:

Do you think it's easier to score 115 ppg or like 90?

[StateOfMind12]

if scoring were so important, russell wouldn't be in the top 10. pippen wouldn't be a top 50 player. rodman and gilmore wouldn't arguably be in the top 50 and the detroit pistons with wallace on it don't win a championship
Neither are in the top 50 and Russell was an underrated offensive player so I don't agree with using Russell to support you case.

Let me ask you this, in the top 50 players of all-time list, do you think there are more scorers/offensive players or defensive players?

There is a reason why Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, George Gervin, Magic Johnson, etc. guys who didn't play much defense or played defense at all are easily in the top 50 while defensive standouts like Dennis Rodman, Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, etc. are not even in it.

Offense as individuals is more important than defense. As far as team is concerned though? That is a different question.


StateofMind lemme switch it up a bit:

Do you think it's easier to score 115 ppg or like 90?
As individuals? Neither. :oldlol:

As a team, obviously 90.

[Sarcastic]

Durant is not nearly as good as Pippen on defense, but he isn't chopped liver either. He is not a liability at all.

Pippen as a #1 option on offense was not great at creating his own shot. He could score in transition, and could hit open jumpers, but there is a reason that Phil Jackson drew up the play for Kukoc over Pippen, and it's not because he was mad at him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.

You really set yourself up here. Now I know you have no clue what you're talking about. Take away MJ, Paxon, Horace Grant, Cartwright, and Scott Williams, and replace those guys with garbage. Your team is going to struggle. Never mind the fact, the Bulls best big man at time, Luc Longley, was out the first few months of the season because of a foot fracture. Chicago going 34-31 in '95 without Jordan was a miracle.

[Clippersfan86]

of course the top 10 has some of the best scorers ever. i chose guys that were not known for their offensive game yet still had huge impacts on the game. rodman was never polished offensively and could arguably be considered a top 50 player. and that is because of everything but scoring...his impact in rebounding and defense was unparalleled on almost every night. that's the only point i was making. a career 7.3 ppg scorer is arguably a top 50 player ever....

I believe Ben Wallace is the 3rd best all around defender in NBA history after Russell and Rodman probably. I don't think he should be out of the top 50 at all. Dude was a NIGHTMARE. He's in a VERY small group of players in NBA history who have averaged 15 rpg, 1.5 spg and 3 bpg or more in the same season.

[Clippersfan86]

Durant is not nearly as good as Pippen on defense, but he isn't chopped liver either. He is not a liability at all.

Pippen as a #1 option on offense was not great at creating his own shot. He could score in transition, and could hit open jumpers, but there is a reason that Phil Jackson drew up the play for Kukoc over Pippen, and it's not because he was mad at him.

The gap on scoring and defense between them balances out. It's the rebounding/playmaking which is where you can't say Durant is currently better.

[Sarcastic]

Name me one other player like Pippen that could do what he did and still fit into that system the way he did.

Pippen is one of the best #2s of all time. Not arguing against that. Finding the #1 is harder though, and more important.

[StateOfMind12]

How is Pippen "easily" a better rebounder than Durant?

They averaged about the same per game during their prime except Durant played with better bigs and rebounding teammates than Pippen did and I'm more than positive the Thunder played in a slower pace than the Bulls did (mainly due to era).

[Sarcastic]

The gap on scoring and defense between them balances out. It's the rebounding/playmaking which is where you can't say Durant is currently better.

Rebounding is about equal to be honest, and Pippen's playmaking is overrated. The triangle offense doesn't require an elite playmaker.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This thread man. Damn. :oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

Rebounding is about equal to be honest, and Pippen's playmaking is overrated. The triangle offense doesn't require an elite playmaker.

Rebounding is about equal in terms of numbers but Pippen was a much more aggressive rebounder than Durant. I highly disagree that Pippen's playmaking/passing is overrated. Dude is one of maybe 5 LEGIT Point Forward's in NBA history.

[StateOfMind12]

Rebounding is about equal in terms of numbers but Pippen was a much more aggressive rebounder than Durant. I highly disagree that Pippen's playmaking/passing is overrated. Dude is one of maybe 5 LEGIT Point Forward's in NBA history.
:oldlol: Besides LeBron and Pippen, can you even think of another point forward? Oh, and neither Magic and Bird were if you plan on referring to those two.

[Timmy D for MVP]

As individuals? Neither. :oldlol:

As a team, obviously 90.

Okay so just in terms of efficiency it would make more sense to build a team that hampers the opposition (defense), limits them to one shot per possession (rebounding), and spreads the energy expended on the offensive end of the floor so that no one is a defensive liability, (passing).

A team that does this will have a greater chance of being successful than a team that is focused on scoring. Take the San Antonio Spurs of the earlier half of the decade. They would have a greater chance of contending because it is easier to be more consistent doing those things in a system, than hitting shots and trying to score 110+ to compensate for lack of defense.

The Phoenix Suns of the Nash era were also successful, but not like the Spurs, and this is because it's tougher to maintain.

Not to mention the fact that scoring will come off of playing the rest of the game well.

So if given the choice between a great scorer who does some other things good or a good scorer who does other things great would it not make sense to choose the second one?

This is not diminishing the greatness of Durant, who to me in the best scorer alive and the second most unarguable talent I've seen in a long while. But until he improves the other portion of his game I would still HAVE to take Pippen.

[RRR3]

:oldlol: Besides LeBron and Pippen, can you even think of another point forward? Oh, and neither Magic and Bird were if you plan on referring to those two.
T-Mac:pimp:

[Timmy D for MVP]

:oldlol: Besides LeBron and Pippen, can you even think of another point forward? Oh, and neither Magic and Bird were if you plan on referring to those two.

Well not near as good a handler of the ball but maybe Chris Webber? :confusedshrug:

He didn't dictate like those guys though.

[Timmy D for MVP]

T-Mac:pimp:

Yup. That too.

[Clippersfan86]

:oldlol: Besides LeBron and Pippen, can you even think of another point forward? Oh, and neither Magic and Bird were if you plan on referring to those two.

Bird actually was. Lamar Odom as a Clippers rookie was. Young T-Mac and young KG. Grant Hill. John Havlicek. Rick Barry. All can be and were at some point considered Point Forwards.

[ihatetimthomas]

of course the top 10 has some of the best scorers ever. i chose guys that were not known for their offensive game yet still had huge impacts on the game. rodman was never polished offensively and could arguably be considered a top 50 player. and that is because of everything but scoring...his impact in rebounding and defense was unparalleled on almost every night. that's the only point i was making. a career 7.3 ppg scorer is arguably a top 50 player ever....

Im not sure what your point is exactly. Are their great players who were not scorers? Of course. You name a few guys who are great, but I dont get why. Are you are trying to say scoring is not as important? For every guy you name in the top 50 who was not scorers, I name you 20 others who were. The best scorers through the course of history are always better than the best non scorers or intangible players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Scottie Pippen: 19/6/5/5/3 vs Jazz, 1994 (intangibles) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4lrWacsB84&feature=plcp)
Scottie Pippen: 23pts, 4stls vs. Bucks (1994) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NksdG7K6u-s&feature=context-chv)
Scottie Pippen: 39/10/9/6 vs. Hawks, 1994 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ7yNMjHMWw&feature=context-chv)
Scottie Pippen: 28pts vs. Denver Nuggets (1994) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34O5guqXvIY&feature=plcp)

Scottie Pippen: 25/9/9/6 vs. NJ Nets (1994) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9691gV6oag&feature=plcp)
Bulls vs. Cavs - 1994 playoffs Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw&feature=plcp)
Bulls vs. Suns - 1995 (Pippen shuts down Barkley) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U&feature=plcp)

:cheers:

[Clippersfan86]

Im not sure what your point is exactly. Are their great players who were not scorers? Of course. You name a few guys who are great, but I dont get why. Are you are trying to say scoring is not as important? For every guy you name in the top 50 who was not scorers, I name you 20 others who were. The best scorers through the course of history are always better than the best non scorers or intangible players.

Not true. The greatest players in NBA history were the guys who did all of it. Not a single one dimensional player is in the top 50 list. Scoring doesn't have a greater value than defense... just guys get praised more for it because it's flashy. Players don't strive to be shut down defenders but rather 20 ppg scorers.

[chazzy]

The gap on scoring and defense between them balances out. It's the rebounding/playmaking which is where you can't say Durant is currently better.
That's not how the impact of players should be measured though. Like Dmavs always says in those Dirk threads, you'll end up with faulty comparisons like KG vs Magic. A player's total worth isn't 1/4 scoring,1/4 defense, 1/4 passing, 1/4 rebounding or something.

[Smoke117]

We haven't even seen Durant's peak yet. In his peak, it's likely that he will be a 30ppg scorer.

He has a chance at catching up to Jordan and Wilt for most scoring titles all time. That will put him in a totally different tier than Pippen.


Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.


That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. In 1994 they lose Jordan and replace him with Pete Myers and rookie Toni Kukoc and in 1995 they lose Horace Grant to free agency without replacing him with anything notable and he is supposed to lead the team to the playoffs and contend for a championships as if nothing has changed? The fact that he still managed to have that team 2nd in defense and over .500 before Jordan returned is a testament to how good he is. He practically had to do EVERYTHING and be EVERYWHERE for the team to win and before Jordan returned the bulls had won 8 out of their last 10 games and were playing pretty well.

Not to mention the triangle offense really isn't an offense built around Pippens offensive skills. He would have done much better in an offense that allowed him to push the tempo more than the triangle offense did as if anything he was always one of the best open court players ever.

[ihatetimthomas]

Not true. The greatest players in NBA history were the guys who did all of it. Not a single one dimensional player is in the top 50 list.

Well no shit lol...

Of the top players...most of them were elite scorers. Of course they did other things...thats why they were great, but most of those players best attribute was their scoring and ability to carry the team.

[Clippersfan86]

That's not how the impact of players should be measured though. Like Dmavs always says in those Dirk threads, you'll end up with faulty comparisons like KG vs Magic. A player's total worth isn't 1/4 scoring,1/4 defense, 1/4 passing, 1/4 rebounding or something.

Sure... intangibles such as leadership, clutch etc should be factored so it's not exactly 1/4 each main attribute. I still believe you cannot assign a greater value to scoring than the other 3 though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. In 1994 they lose Jordan and replace him with Pete Myers and rookie Toni Kukoc and in 1995 they lose Horace Grant to free agency without replacing him with anything notable and he is supposed to lead the team to the playoffs and contend for a championships as if nothing has changed? The fact that he still managed to have that team 2nd in defense and over .500 before Jordan returned is a testament to how good he is. He practically had to do EVERYTHING and be EVERYWHERE for the team to win. Before Jordan returned they had won 8 out of their last 10 games and were playing well too.

Not to mention the triangle offense really isn't an offense built around the Pippens offensive skills. He would do much better in an offense that allowed him to push the tempo more than the triangle offense did as if anything he was always one of the best open court players ever.

Exactly. Read my post a page back. Sarcastic never watched diddly squat. Lol at anyone winning with that injury-riddled/depleted '95 team.

[ImmortalNemesis]

Durant playing Robin to Jordan would win 10 rings.


If we are using the rings argument, then Horry > Pippen, right?

Why do people still say this? WHY? To quote the great KBlaze


How the ****....does anyone...still feel that makes a legit point?

And even worse....people still have to explain why it doesnt make sense....

Do these people think they just thought it up every time?

If not...do they not see the exact same response that negates it every single time its said?

This is worse than commentators saying "The most dangerous guy is the one inbounding the ball". At least that is often the case...just mentioned too often.

This? I have to know....how is this still among the most common "Rings dont matter' arguments?

How does someone type out "Yea well Horry has ___" and feel they just made a good point?

For the longest time I thought it was a running joke. But it isnt. People honestly keep thinking it makes a point. I think I asked this a few years ago and assumed it would die down with time.

Here I am 10 years in having heard this argument 2-3 times a week(while avoiding most of the kinds of topics they are in as well). And it just doesnt end.

Really...the ****?

Don't ever EVER say that again.

[chazzy]

I still believe you cannot assign a greater value to scoring than the other 3 though.
Depends on the position. Typically a perimeter player's individual defense isn't comparable to the impact of a big man defender, but in this case we're talking arguably the best perimeter defender ever. It's hard to measure the impact an individual player has on his team's defense when defense is often a product of good coaching and chemistry/rotations by 5 guys. An individual (especially perimeter player) has much more control over a team's offense than defense.

[Whoah10115]

I don't think some people are thinking too much when they talk.



There is a difference between scoring and offense. As great a scorer as Magic was, what made people overlook his defense (which was very solid, just not great) was the offense. Even before he became a great scorer. His ability to create total production for the team.



One could always argue that Pippen's playmaking is overrated. However, it's not. Scottie Pippen is up there with Jason Kidd on the all-time list of guys who are the complete opposite of stat-padders.




Scottie had terrific handles. He had no issue creating his shot, getting to the rim. He could post up, create from the post. His jumpshot was barely average.




When Jordan was out, those Bulls teams were sluggish on offense. They moved like snails. And he still averaged 22 a game for those two years. The assist numbers don't do his passing or playmaking any justice.




So I have to disagree, strongly, with my man bizil...Durant is an alpha scorer, but Pippen was a great offensive player. As natural a basketball player as you're gonna see. Defensively, he brought the big man quality. That quality where you can build around his defense. That deserves credit. He was a top 3 player in 94 (3rd in voting, shouldn't have finished lower than 2 and had a great case against Hakeem). He was deserving of top 3 again, the next year. And when it comes down to it, I can make a strong case for him being a top 5 player in the game, in his prime. And I would make that case, cuz he likely was.



So for now, better than Durant. Scottie made everyone around him better. And even tho it was ridiculous for him to sit out that play, these discussions are why he did.

[Clippersfan86]

Depends on the position. Typically a perimeter player's individual defense isn't comparable to the impact of a big man defender, but in this case we're talking arguably the best perimeter defender ever. It's hard to measure the impact an individual player has on his team's defense when defense is often a product of good coaching and chemistry/rotations by 5 guys. An individual (especially perimeter player) has much more control over a team's offense than defense.

I have Pippen right next to Payton as the best perimeter defender of all time. I just remember how ridiculous Pippen's defense was and how he could dominate games with it. Racking up those steals and getting out in transition :eek: :eek: .

[chazzy]

I have Pippen right next to Payton as the best perimeter defender of all time. I just remember how ridiculous Pippen's defense was and how he could dominate games with it. Racking up those steals and getting out in transition :eek: :eek: .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

[StateOfMind12]

A team that does this will have a greater chance of being successful than a team that is focused on scoring. Take the San Antonio Spurs of the earlier half of the decade. They would have a greater chance of contending because it is easier to be more consistent doing those things in a system, than hitting shots and trying to score 110+ to compensate for lack of defense.
The analogy doesn't work because one player does not create the system. I understand what you are trying to say though but the Spurs also had scorers like Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Manu Ginobili. Nobody to scoff at in terms of offense and scoring.



So if given the choice between a great scorer who does some other things good or a good scorer who does other things great would it not make sense to choose the second one?

As an individual? I'll go with the better offensive player like I said earlier. Individual offense will always beat individual defense.

How many times have we seen in NBA games where an defensive player does the absolute best job you possible can without fouling at defending a shot and the offensive player makes the shot anyways?

You can't stop great offensive players and great scorers while you can and will eventually be able to score on a defensive standout regardless of how great he may be.

Offense just wins every time.

[Clippersfan86]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

If Marion does so well on Durant at times imagine what Pippen would do? Great video man, appreciate it.

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen's greatness as a defender is more so in his help/team defense and not is individual defense. He was a great one on one defender, but the game changing defenders do it with help defense and he was doing it when there was illegal defense. With no illegal defense rules he would be an absolute terror out there now.

[Clippersfan86]

The analogy doesn't work because one player does not create the system. I understand what you are trying to say though but the Spurs also had scorers like Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Manu Ginobili. Nobody to scoff at in terms of offense and scoring.



As an individual? I'll go with the better offensive player like I said earlier. Individual offense will always beat individual defense.

How many times have we seen in NBA games where an defensive player does the absolute best job you possible can without fouling at defending a shot and the offensive player makes the shot anyways?

You can't stop great offensive players and great scorers while you can and will eventually be able to score on a defensive standout regardless of how great he may be.

Offense just wins every time.

Offense wins every time eh? Assuming both are equal... it's simply not true. It's a matter of who is better what which.

[ihatetimthomas]

Offense wins every time eh? Assuming both are equal... it's simply not true. It's a matter of who is better what which.

The best defender cannot shut down the best scorer. They can make their life difficult but offense will always be better.

[Harison]

Durant should surpass Pippen when its all said and done, however as of now its disrespect to put Durant over Pip.

[Clippersfan86]

:oldlol: You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Just stick with Clippers threads.

The 5th best scorer in the league today could probably score on the best perimeter defender in the league today. Individual offense wins every time.

To win a matchup you don't need to hold somebody to zero points, that's what you're not getting. Tony Allen for example won battles with Kobe in the 08 playoffs... despite Kobe still scoring 20+. Defense isn't something that you can quantify the way you can scoring which is why people hype up scoring so much. It's easier to identify.

[StateOfMind12]

The best defender cannot shut down the best scorer. They can make their life difficult but offense will always be better.
Exactly, but I don't expect him to get it though. He should honestly just stick with Clippers threads.

Like I said, you'll find much more offensive players and scorers in the top 50 greatest players list than defensive, rebounding players. There is just more value on offense and scoring whether people want to accept that notion or not.

[Clippersfan86]

The best defender cannot shut down the best scorer. They can make their life difficult but offense will always be better.

I disagree with this. The best defender CAN shut down the best scorer. Maybe not in this era where scoring is the ultimate prize and players forgot how to play D.

I'm willing to bet that Pippen/Jordan/Payton/Rodman would shutdown any of the best scorers today for the most part. Assuming the physical advantages aren't too unbalanced (such as Shaq or Lebron).

[Harison]

The best defender cannot shut down the best scorer. They can make their life difficult but offense will always be better.

Scorer can have bad nights (or even cold streaks), while defense is always there. Therefore as MANY championship teams claimed: "offense starts with the defense", "defense wins championships", "defense is the backbone".

How many rings won purely offensive teams? Hardly any, and even Showtime Lakers had solid defense.

Most recent example - Mavs '10 bounced in the 1st round, DPOY anchor joined - '11 championship, anchor gone - 1st round exit in '12. Dirk is still the same elite scorer, but pattern is obvious.

Or watch Celtics '12 - one of the WORST offenses in NBA, yet due to Top1 defense they should reach ECF.

[Clippersfan86]

Let me give you a few defensive performances that qualify as beating out the offense.

Battier vs Kobe in 2008 playoffs. Sure Kobe scored 20 but it was on an insane 33 field goal attempts and he shot a little over 30 percent. On paper based on your argument... that's offense winning because he scored 20, but obviously he lost that battle to a superb defense.

Look at Payton vs Jordan in 96 finals. On paper it looks like Jordan dominated the defense because he put up 20+ ppg still but when you look at his shooting percentage you'll see it's in the 30's. You'll see that this is a guy who AVERAGED 36 ppg in the finals up until that point being held to low-mid 20's scoring.

List of similar situations goes on.

[Clippersfan86]

Scorer can have bad nights (or even cold streaks), while defense is always there. Therefore as MANY championship teams claimed: "offense starts with the defense", "defense wins championships", "defense is the backbone".

How many rings won purely offensive teams? Hardly any, and even Showtime Lakers had solid defense.

Most recent example - Mavs '10 bounced in the 1st round, DPOY anchor joined - '11 championship, anchor gone - 1st round exit in '12. Dirk is still the same elite scorer, but pattern is obvious.

Or watch Celtics '12 - one of the WORST offenses in NBA, yet due to Top1 defense they should reach ECF.

Also look at 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons if you want more recent. Nowhere near elite or top offenses.. but far and away top defenses in NBA and they not only dominated the playoffs and won rings without much of a fight.... but they steamrolled the regular season.

[Clippersfan86]

Also don't forget other all time great defenders like Dennis Johnson who's defense on Magic in the 84 finals is a huge reason why the Celtics beat out the Lakers. You can find tons of situations where elite defense conquered elite offense and vice versa.

[ihatetimthomas]

Let me give you a few defensive performances that qualify as beating out the offense.

Battier vs Kobe in 2008 playoffs. Sure Kobe scored 20 but it was on an insane 33 field goal attempts and he shot a little over 30 percent. On paper based on your argument... that's offense winning because he scored 20, but obviously he lost that battle to a superb defense.

Look at Payton vs Jordan in 96 finals. On paper it looks like Jordan dominated the defense because he put up 20+ ppg still but when you look at his shooting percentage you'll see it's in the 30's. You'll see that this is a guy who AVERAGED 36 ppg in the finals up until that point being held to low-mid 20's scoring.

List of similar situations goes on.

For every situation where defense conquered offense, there are wayyyy more situations where offense conquered defense.

Listing a few situations doesnt mean anything. Why not list the times where offense dominated?

I may have been a bit forward saying the best offense always beats the best defense, but in general and through the course of history, offense has trumped defense, more times than vice versa.

[Harison]

Also look at 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons if you want more recent. Nowhere near elite or top offenses.. but far and away top defenses in NBA and they not only dominated the playoffs and won rings without much of a fight.... but they steamrolled the regular season.

Exactly, Kobe was the best scorer on the floor in Finals '08, yet was swarmed by the defense and hardly could do anything. Or in '04 Lakers had TWO the most dominant scorers on the floor, BY FAR, yet they were dominated by the elite defensive team. Freaking Billups won FMVP, with prime Shaq and Kobe on the floor. :wtf: This should answer whats better, elite defense or elite offense.

[Timmy D for MVP]

You and I just have different philosophies. Where our argument would go from here is just back around in a circle because of that. And I have a final to take in the morning so I gotta bounce. Been fun.

[Timmy D for MVP]

For every situation where defense conquered offense, there are wayyyy more situations where offense conquered defense.

Listing a few situations doesnt mean anything. Why not list the times where offense dominated?

I may have been a bit forward saying the best offense always beats the best defense, but in general and through the course of history, offense has trumped defense, more times than vice versa.

Nope just kidding one more point to make:

Offensive moments may trump defensive moments on occasion.

But on average in the long run defense wins out. We see it time and again.

[Clippersfan86]

Nope just kidding one more point to make:

Offensive moments may trump defensive moments on occasion.

But on average in the long run defense wins out. We see it time and again.

I agree. As I said... the frequency argument is disappointing by Thomas because he's usually very logical. Of course there are going to be more times where offense won. BUT that's because 90+ percent of players are OFFENSIVE minded players. How many players put defense first? Very few.

[ihatetimthomas]

Nope just kidding one more point to make:

Offensive moments may trump defensive moments on occasion.

But on average in the long run defense wins out. We see it time and again.

Im talking individual players, not teams.

[Clippersfan86]

I feel very bad for Kobe for example when I think of if he had to face prime Payton or Pippen. Sure Kobe beat out declining Portland Pippen.... but the guy would be lucky to shoot 25 percent against Pippen prime vs prime.

[ihatetimthomas]

My whole point in this thread was that the best players in history for the most part are the best offensive players, not vice versa. Yes these players were good at D and other things, but their bread and butter was offense and scoring. I am not sure how this can be disputed. And in the top 50, way more are elite scorers than elite defenders.

[StateOfMind12]

You and I just have different philosophies. Where our argument would go from here is just back around in a circle because of that. And I have a final to take in the morning so I gotta bounce. Been fun.
Well if you are referring to me, good luck in your final.

I just wanted to say this though. I do agree with your philosophy in terms of team-play but not individual play. I would simply rather have Durant on my team to be the best player on my team than Pippen. Pippen was a 2nd banana and there is nothing wrong with that. Durant on the other hand could dominate as the 1st banana or the 2nd banana, at least in my opinion.

I always thought KG was like a taller, bigger, and better version of Pippen so I understand where you are coming from. I don't think Pippen as highly as others Bulls and Pippen fans do even though I'm a Bulls fan myself. I do think that he gets shafted a lot of times due to being a 2nd banana to MJ and sometimes I feel like people exaggerate how good he really was.

Pippen was the type of player that was either underrated or overrated, no in between. I don't think many people ever actually rate Pippen correctly.

Like I said, I said Durant originally and I'm sticking with it. He was the better scorer and shooter by a heavy margin, they were equal rebounders, and Pippen had the advantage in terms of defense and passing.

It really ends up depending on what you value more, dominant scoring and elite shooting or dominant defense and great passing. I say the scoring/shooting because it is worth more than defense and passing. If Pippen was like a Magic-type passer/playmaker, I would be saying Pippen though but he wasn't which is why I say Durant.

[Clippersfan86]

My whole point in this thread was that the best players in history for the most part are the best offensive players, not vice versa. Yes these players were good at D and other things, but their bread and butter was offense and scoring. I am not sure how this can be disputed. And in the top 50, way more are elite scorers than elite defenders.

That's due to how many players are offensive minded though. No correlation that points to offensive>defensive individually. Especially because most of the top 10 players have been elite on both ends. As I said... maybe 5-10 percent of the league at any given point is defensive minded players.

[KG215]

To me it boils down to, in their prime, which player would you choose to build your franchise around? As great as Pippen was, I'd still prefer to build a team around Durant. I think KD has a top 20 all-time peak, and even as high as top 15 if he wins 3+ rings and a few MVPs.

Every season since he's been in the league we've seen Durant greatly improve in some area of the game. This year he was much improved at attacking the rim and controlling his dribble while attacking. He still has turnover issues and gets the ball knocked loose a little too often, but he's really improved his handle. He's much more crisp and tight with his dribble penetrations moves. One thing that worries me is I don't know how much stronger he's going to get. He just doesn't have the body frame that's going to allow him to pack on a lot of weight, keep his speed and quickness, and get stronger. He weighed 215 pounds coming out of college and now weighs 230-235, yet doesn't look much different. However, if he does get stronger, and continues to work on his post game (he really needs to learn to utilize the high and mid post like Dirk) then watch out. He's already shown improvements in his offensive post game this year.

His ceiling is very high and, despite already being one of the three or four best players in the NBA at 23, I honestly don't think he's scratched the surface of what he can be as an all-around player. And, right now (when you ignore career resumes) he's already pretty close to Pippen as a player. I wouldn't quite put him on Pippen's level, yet, just because Pip's defensive ability and versatility makes him arguably the best perimeter defender of all-time. But as has already been discussed, Durant already is a much better scorer than Pippen. Pippen's ceiling as a scorer as the #1 option was 22-25 ppg. Durant's ceiling as the #1 scoring option is 30-32 ppg. The only reason he hasn't matched his 30.1 ppg scoring average from two seasons ago is because of Westbrook's emergence as a scorer and all-around player. While it's better for the team, had Westbrook not turned into the scorer he currently is, then we'd probably be talking about Durant finishing up his third straight 29-30 ppg season in just his first five years in the league. I'm guessing the list of players to do that is extremely short. Of course had Westbrook had such an emergence, then we'd also probably be talking about OKC's third straight first round playoff exit.

[ihatetimthomas]

That's due to how many players are offensive minded though. No correlation that points to offensive>defensive individually. Especially because most of the top 10 players have been elite on both ends. As I said... maybe 5-10 percent of the league at any given point has defensive minded players.

It still doesn't change the fact of my statement. They just dont have the same impact as elite individual scorers. If defense always dominated offense all the time and the best players were defenders, not scorers, they would rise to the top. I mean, you cant use the fact "well players dont give a shit about defense" as your argument. All we have are the facts and the reality and the facts show that the best players are more often than not elite scorers.

If we are speaking on team D, thats a diff story bc clearly you need elite TEAM defense to win titles. But on a individual standpoint, you will never change my mind.

[97 bulls]

For every situation where defense conquered offense, there are wayyyy more situations where offense conquered defense.

Listing a few situations doesnt mean anything. Why not list the times where offense dominated?

I may have been a bit forward saying the best offense always beats the best defense, but in general and through the course of history, offense has trumped defense, more times than vice versa.
I beg to differ. Its a classic case that says for every winner theres a loser. Show me an instance where an offensive player out played a defensive player and won, and ill show you the vice versa. For instance, in 06, everyone clamors over dwades offensive exploits. But haslems defense on dirk (the losing teams best offensive player) was just as important.

Look at the finals last year. It was marions defense on james that really won the series for the mavs.

Id always rather have a great team built around defense over a great team thats built on offense. I cant really think of a team thats been able to win a championship on offense and little defense. But theres been plenty championship teams that have won with decent offense and a stingy defense.

[Clippersfan86]

I beg to differ. Its a classic case that says for every winner theres a loser. Show me an instance where an offensive player out played a defensive player and won, and ill show you the vice versa. For instance, in 06, everyone clamors over dwades offensive exploits. But haslems defense on dirk (the losing teams best offensive player) was just as important.

Look at the finals last year. It was marions defense on james that really won the series for the mavs.

Id always rather have a great team built around defense over a great team thats built on offense. I cant really think of a team thats been able to win a championship on offense and little defense. But theres been plenty championship teams that have won with decent offense and a stingy defense.

:applause:

[KG215]

I have Pippen right next to Payton as the best perimeter defender of all time.

Sidney Moncrief says hi. I'm not disagreeing with you, though, I just think Moncrief gets way overlooked as one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time.

[Clippersfan86]

Sidney Moncrief says hi. I'm not disagreeing with you, though, I just think Moncrief gets way overlooked as one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time.

I think a Sports Illustrated list I saw a few years back had it at....

1. Payton
2. Pippen
3. Moncrief
4. Jordan

As the top 4 which I pretty much agree with 100 percent. Forgot who ranked 5th.

[blacknapalm]

I think a Sports Illustrated list I saw a few years back had it at....

1. Payton
2. Pippen
3. Moncrief
4. Jordan

As the top 4 which I pretty much agree with 100 percent. Forgot who ranked 5th.

plenty of candidates. cooper, DJ, havlicek, bobby jones, bowen....

anyway, jumped in this thread way too late. i'll just say that i think it's pretty clear durant is on his way to being better than pippen if he keeps rounding out his game. i just don't think you can pass that torch just yet

[Clippersfan86]

plenty of candidates. cooper, DJ, havlicek, bobby jones, bowen....

anyway, jumped in this thread way too late. i'll just say that i think it's pretty clear durant is on his way to being better than pippen if he keeps rounding out his game. i just don't think you can pass that torch just yet

I think Dennis Johnson or Michael Cooper were 5th. So basically your first two :cheers: .

[97 bulls]

In response to the original question, id take pippen right now. Durant hasnt done anything to trump pippen. And for the morons that say pippen wasnt a franchise player, what do you call what he did in 94 and 95? My god he was top 3 in mvp voting one year and top 2 in the dpoy the next. How many players can say that?

An understand, when youre comparing players, why try to go off the strengths of only one of the players? Their stylesteams are different. Durant is a great scorer. Thats his game. He is a scorer. But as scorers go, he isnt even top 20 right now.

Pippens game is versatility. And he quite possibly the most versatile player ever. And the greatest of the versatile players.

One last thing. Its just too early to try to put durant over pippen. As a bulls fan, i remember the same thing being thrown around but only it was derrick rose. Now roses carer isnt over, but it doent look like hell be top 20. Injuries can kill careers. Look at tmac. Penny hardaway, ming.

[Ketchup]

In what way is Scottie Pippen better than Durant? Durant is the number 1 option, taking his team to one of the best records in the league. This is like asking who the better player is between Clyde Drexler and Scottie. It's Clyde. He was the number 1 guy, he was the one that lead the teams, etc.

Scoring is so vastly underrated on this site. Scoring is the point of the game. If you can do that, you're better than a lot of players right off the bat.

[iamgine]

In response to the original question, id take pippen right now. Durant hasnt done anything to trump pippen. And for the morons that say pippen wasnt a franchise player, what do you call what he did in 94 and 95? My god he was top 3 in mvp voting one year and top 2 in the dpoy the next. How many players can say that?

An understand, when youre comparing players, why try to go off the strengths of only one of the players? Their stylesteams are different. Durant is a great scorer. Thats his game. He is a scorer. But as scorers go, he isnt even top 20 right now.

Pippens game is versatility. And he quite possibly the most versatile player ever. And the greatest of the versatile players.

One last thing. Its just too early to try to put durant over pippen. As a bulls fan, i remember the same thing being thrown around but only it was derrick rose. Now roses carer isnt over, but it doent look like hell be top 20. Injuries can kill careers. Look at tmac. Penny hardaway, ming.
How about Dirk Nowitzki vs Scottie Pippen?

[97 bulls]

Its just a shame that people continue to penalize pippen. Dont forget the man had only two years outside of jordans shadow. And in those two years he was top 3 in the nba. I havnt talked to a person that feels pippen doesnt win the MVP if he didnt miss those 10 games and assuming the bulls finish with the best record in the league.

In 95, he was clearly robbed of the dpoy award. Just robbed. And he was everythign to that team. You look at that roster, and have to scratch your head trying to figure out how they managed to stay above 500.

Theres no doubt in my mind that if pippen has 10 years as the man, he has a dpoy award and MVP

[97 bulls]

In what way is Scottie Pippen better than Durant? Durant is the number 1 option, taking his team to one of the best records in the league. This is like asking who the better player is between Clyde Drexler and Scottie. It's Clyde. He was the number 1 guy, he was the one that lead the teams, etc.

Scoring is so vastly underrated on this site. Scoring is the point of the game. If you can do that, you're better than a lot of players right off the bat.
Lol go watch the 92 finals game six. In particular the fourth quarter, pippen kicked drexlers ass. He shut him down forced drexler to turn the ball over three times, and posted his ass up on offense. And scored 11 point. Pippen led the bulls back from a 15 point deficit and the bulls won

[97 bulls]

How about Dirk Nowitzki vs Scottie Pippen?
Id take pippen.

[IamRAMBO24]

Durant needs to be a better passer and defensive player, not to mention, win 6 rings to be on the same level as Pippen.

Scoring 30 is small balls compare to the intangibles Pippen brought to win 6 rings.

Pippen is as hard as you can get it, as is, Durant is as soft as a fruitcake. This is why he can't dominate on d like Pippen could.

[iamgine]

Id take pippen.
Who will you take over Pippen??

[97 bulls]

Who will you take over Pippen??
Lol Jordan

[iamgine]

Lol Jordan
only 1?

[IamRAMBO24]

In what way is Scottie Pippen better than Durant? Durant is the number 1 option, taking his team to one of the best records in the league. This is like asking who the better player is between Clyde Drexler and Scottie. It's Clyde. He was the number 1 guy, he was the one that lead the teams, etc.

Scoring is so vastly underrated on this site. Scoring is the point of the game. If you can do that, you're better than a lot of players right off the bat.

Are you sure about that?

It sure doesn't look that way when Westbrook says give me the f*ckin ball!

Pippen was widely consider to be the 2nd best player of all time during the Bulls championship run. It was only during his later years with crappy teams that brought his status down.

I mean hell if Durant played next to Jordan, he'll be his sidekick b*tch too.

Durant isn't even number 1 option next to a shot chucking point guard, how can you use that as an argument for leadership? Lame.

[97 bulls]

Durant needs to be a better passer and defensive player, not to mention, win 6 rings to be on the same level as Pippen.

Scoring 30 is small balls compare to the intangibles Pippen brought to win 6 rings.

Pippen is as hard as you can get it, as is, Durant is as soft as a fruitcake. This is why he can't dominate on d like Pippen could.
Its funny, watching the lakers/thunder series, i constantly hear people ask what kind of player would kobe need to succeed. It pippen.

Replace lebron james with pippen vs the mavs last year and i guarantee the heat are working on a repeat.

[97 bulls]

only 1?
Just joking. Shaq, olajuwan, wilt. Mostly bigmen. There arent very many perimeter players that i would take over pippen.

[eliteballer]

Its just a shame that people continue to penalize pippen. Dont forget the man had only two years outside of jordans shadow. And in those two years he was top 3 in the nba. I havnt talked to a person that feels pippen doesnt win the MVP if he didnt miss those 10 games and assuming the bulls finish with the best record in the league.

In 95, he was clearly robbed of the dpoy award. Just robbed. And he was everythign to that team. You look at that roster, and have to scratch your head trying to figure out how they managed to stay above 500.

Theres no doubt in my mind that if pippen has 10 years as the man, he has a dpoy award and MVP


LOL top 3 in the NBA. He wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, DRob, Barkley, Ewing, or Malone

[iamgine]

Just joking. Shaq, olajuwan, wilt. Mostly bigmen. There arent very many perimeter players that i would take over pippen.
So who are these perimeter players you'd take over Pippen?

[Ketchup]

Wow, Pippen is overrated to death on here.
How in the world is a 2nd fiddle player somehow better than the main man on a team who drops points with the greatest of ease. Maybe the easiest ever seen in the league. Always manages to somehow put up 25+ points no matter how bad a game he's having.
Durant is under-appreciated in this thread, but then overhyped outside of it.

[IamRAMBO24]

LOL top 3 in the NBA. He wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, DRob, Barkley, Ewing, or Malone

Are you kidding me?

Pippen was considered in some circles to be BETTER than Jordan in those prime years.

I mean I'm talking about legit sports analyst questioning whether or not he was the best player on the Bulls because of his all around game and defensive abilities.

When you cut it all down to the intangibles, it's hard to argue why Durant is the better player.

[StateOfMind12]

His ceiling is very high and, despite already being one of the three or four best players in the NBA at 23, I honestly don't think he's scratched the surface of what he can be as an all-around player.
I think Durant is quite clearly the 2nd best player in the league right now behind LeBron. LeBron and Durant are in their own tier/category at the top. You also mentioned how Durant is 23 years old, I also think that Durant at age 23 was better than LeBron was at age 23 ('07-'08 season). LeBron was the better passer and had better handles than Durant at the time but that was it, Durant was better at everything else.

So I have a question for those of you taking Pippen in this current comparison, when did LeBron surpass Pippen for you? In 2009? In 2010? When he won his first and second MVPs? If so, I suppose it would be fair to say Pippen is better than current Durant but if not and if LeBron surpassed him earlier than that then I don't think it's fair because Durant was better than LeBron was at 23.

[IamRAMBO24]

I think Durant is quite clearly the 2nd best player in the league right now behind LeBron. LeBron and Durant are in their own tier/category at the top. You also mentioned how Durant is 23 years old, I also think that Durant at age 23 was better than LeBron was at age 23 ('07-'08 season). LeBron was the better passer and had better handles than Durant at the time but that was it, Durant was better at everything else.

So I have a question for those of you taking Pippen in this current comparison, when did LeBron surpass Pippen for you? In 2009? In 2010? When he won his first and second MVPs? If so, I suppose it would be fair to say Pippen is better than current Durant but if not and if LeBron surpassed him earlier than that then I don't think it's fair because Durant was better than LeBron was at 23.

Good sense of logic, but stfu, Pippen is still better than Durant and Lebron is better than Pippen JUST BECAUSE. Final answer.

[97 bulls]

LOL top 3 in the NBA. He wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, DRob, Barkley, Ewing, or Malone
Yes. He was top 3. For those two years. Top 3 in mvp voting in 94 and was the leading vote getter for the all nba and all defense teams in 94 if i remember correct. And he was top 2 in dpoy award in 94. And led all vote getters for the all defense first team. Those are the two most prestigous awards in the nba. And pippen was top 3.

How many players can say they finished top 3 in both the dpoy award and mvp? How many players are or were capable of winning both of those awards?

[I<3NBA]

idc what anyone else says. until Lebron, i mean, Durant wins a ring, he will never be the player Kobe, i mean, Pippen is. srsly. it isn't hard 6>0.

next!

[Smoke117]

In what way is Scottie Pippen better than Durant? Durant is the number 1 option, taking his team to one of the best records in the league. This is like asking who the better player is between Clyde Drexler and Scottie. It's Clyde. He was the number 1 guy, he was the one that lead the teams, etc.

Scoring is so vastly underrated on this site. Scoring is the point of the game. If you can do that, you're better than a lot of players right off the bat.

You can believe whatever you want but most people have Pippen higher on their top 50 player of all time list between Scottie Pippen and Clyde Drexler and frankly while they wanted to build up this Jordan vs Drexler duel during the 1992 finals the two best players on the court were Jordan and Pippen not Jordan and Drexler as Scottie had surpassed Drexler as a player by then.

[DMAVS41]

All time ranking? No.

As a player? Yes. Durant is better than Pippen ever was.

[Odinn]

It's not a healthy comparison.

While Pippen arguably goat 2nd option, Durant is the 1st option even in his rookie season.

I think comparisons such as Dantley vs. Durant, English vs. Durant would be more accurate.

Lastly, I do not agree with "We haven't seen Durant's peak/the best of Durant". He reminds me Duncan about it. Durant is 23 right now and Duncan was 23 in 1999 playoffs. Durant at his 5th season and Duncan won the MVP in 2002. Duncan's peak started in 2000-01 season when he was 24 and at his 4th season. There's nothing such as a prime/peak should be started at 27 or 7th season. Of course Durant's going to improve his game but he's a 28/8/3 guy already. What do you want more? 31/11/6?

[PTB Fan]

Nope..

[atljonesbro]

Tell me why in current times when were comparing some who is clearly a 1st option on a championship team vs a 2nd option who's well rounded the 1st option player is easily selected, but when were talking 90s players vs current the tables turn and everyone wants to pick the 2nd option to make themselves feel more intelligent/let nostalgia get in the way. This is on a smaller scale but its like comparing Iguodala to Carmelo. Since neither are 90s players, most people would take Melo as a player. That's why i hate these generation to generation comparisons. All these people who were young during 90s basketball will hop on their high horse, swoop in and act as if they are just so much more knowledge than everyone else and let their nostalgia hit them. Pippen couldn't be a championship caliber 1st option much less as dominant one as Durant. NBA is an offensive league where having an elite scorer is MUCH MORE of an advantage than having 1 lockdown defender.

[pauk]

Career? No...

Invidual players? You can go either way based on what you look for in a player, but im personally leaning more towards Pippen... in my book i think his ability of playing up to 5 positions offensively (could do everything very well offensively) & defend up to 5 positions (arguably the best perimeter defender ever and most versatile defender ever) kindof all in all somewhat surpasses Durants ability to simply score... thats just my humble opinion..

[Ketchup]

You can believe whatever you want but most people have Pippen higher on their top 50 player of all time list between Scottie Pippen and Clyde Drexler and frankly while they wanted to build up this Jordan vs Drexler duel during the 1992 finals the two best players on the court were Jordan and Pippen not Jordan and Drexler as Scottie had surpassed Drexler as a player by then.

I have Scottie higher on my all time list too. Due to his career. He sure as hell wasn't a better player than a prime Clyde.

[Sarcastic]

Are you kidding me?

Pippen was considered in some circles to be BETTER than Jordan in those prime years.

I mean I'm talking about legit sports analyst questioning whether or not he was the best player on the Bulls because of his all around game and defensive abilities.

When you cut it all down to the intangibles, it's hard to argue why Durant is the better player.

Pippen was NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER considered better than Jordan.

Never.

[swi7ch]

Of course not. :facepalm

[Dragonyeuw]

Scottie was a better all-around player, Durant is the better alpha scorer. Who's 'better' is a completely subjective idea and depends on how much one values scoring versus all-around play. The gap between their scoring ability is as large as the gap in their defensive and passing-playmaking skills.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Durant has improved each year, especially this year, but they're so different, it's hard to compare them. Pippen was obviously not in Durant's class as a scorer, but how much do you value your 6'8" forward running your offense while being the best perimeter help defender in the league, being more than capable of guarding elite players at multiple positions, rebounding like a PF and still scoring 20+ ppg?

His defensive impact goes beyond what a guy like Bruce Bowen could do. He could completely disrupt a team's offense whether it was denying the entry pass, stripping the post player, taking away the passing lanes, you really had to be alert when you were playing against Scottie Pippen.

Both Durant and Pippen are very good open court players, but Durant is more of a finisher exclusively, Pippen was a great finisher himself, but was really dangerous handling the ball in the open court. He ranks among the best open court players of all time, imo. He did not have Durant's half court scoring ability because he wasn't close to the shooter Durant is, but Pippen developed a post game and could go to the jump hook. He could use the glass, he improved his outside shot throughout his career and extended his range to 3 point territory in '94, and he was dangerous off the dribble because his handles were above average for a forward and he was such a good finisher he could get right to the basket because of his long arms. Pippen would also find the shooters in the corner when the defense collapsed on him.

I don't think you can automatically say the all around guy is better, or that the great scorer is better, you have to take it on a case by case basis. Durant's improvement this year has made it really difficult for me.

I can't compare Durant to Pippen's full '92-'97 prime yet, but I would take '94-'96 Pippen over '10-'12 Durant. And as far as peak? Durant may have not reached his yet, but I wil lean towards '94 Pippen over current Durant. That one is very close, close enough that I may change my mind on it.


no.

He hasn't even passed Alex English yet.

He's talking about prime. I'd definitely take Durant over English.


I watched him play throughout the 90s. He's not a better player than Durant.

KD has 3 scoring titles already and is 23 years old. Pippen scored 20+ only 3 times in his entire career.

Durant is a #1 option. Pippen is a #2.

Westbrook has become as much of the first option in OKC as Durant. Durant is still OKC's best player obviously, but being a 1st option doesn't automatically make you better.

Pippen averaged 20+ 4 times, and he was easily over 20 ppg in '96 before the ankle injury, he finished at 19.4 ppg.

And nobody would argue that Durant is a better scorer than Pippen, if that was the question of the thread, this wouldn't have lasted a page.



Pippen as a first option was very overrated. People always like to bring up 1994 as some amazing proof that he could lead. But what happened in 1995 when he was leading, and everyone was BEGGING Jordan to come back and save the Bulls.

That's because the '95 team lost Horace Grant and had a weak frontcourt. Look at what happened in the Orlando series even with MJ. Horace Grant killed them.

The Bulls were still a winning team even before MJ returned. And Pippen was playing with a cast of Kukoc(in his second year), BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Will Perdue, past his prime Ron Harper, Luc Longley and Pete Myers.

What do you expect Durant to do with that cast? The fact that they were still over .500 without MJ or Grant only helps Pippen's case.


How is Pippen "easily" a better rebounder than Durant?

They averaged about the same per game during their prime except Durant played with better bigs and rebounding teammates than Pippen did and I'm more than positive the Thunder played in a slower pace than the Bulls did (mainly due to era).

Pippen was definitely a better rebounder than Durant. Durant gets almost no offensive rebounds. And Pippen's teams played at a slower pace than any of Durant's OKC teams from the '93 season on.

Look at the '94 season. The Bulls pace was 91.9(slower than any of Durant's OKC teams). Pippen averaged 8.7 rpg and 2.4 offensive rebounds, while playing with an 11 rpg PF Horace Grant on a team that outrebounded opponents by 3.8 rpg. Pippen's rebounding numbers were lowered after '95 because he was playing with Rodman, and Chicago's pace got even slower.

A 34 year old Pippen was still averaging 6.3 rpg in 33.5 mpg on a very slow-paced Blazer team(89.9 pace) with great size who outrebounded opponents by 4 rpg.


The best defender cannot shut down the best scorer. They can make their life difficult but offense will always be better.

True, the best scorers will often just be off when they struggle, and when they're on, there's not much even the best defender can do. A defender can have a hand in slowing them down, but even then, it usually takes a team effort to slow down the truly elite scorers.

But on the other hand, scorers are more likely to have off nights, as guys like Russell and KG have said, defense will be a constant.

[LBJ_MVP09]

People put way too much into scoring. These people either haven't watched basketball for very long, or have never played it at any level beyond playground. Try watching some Bulls games from the 90's. Pippen would still be a monster in today's game. Pippen's overall impact for a team is a good bit higher than Durant's right now.

[TheMan]

:facepalm

[Teanett]

stupid piece of shit thread.
seiously, durant? NOW???
:facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

The main thing here is we are comparing a second option to a first option. Pippen could have scored 25 ppg no problem as a main option with same amount of shots.

Nonsense.

[Whoah10115]

If we're talking point forwards, even Larry Bird isn't a point forward. Scottie might have been the first (some people would call Oscar a SF tho). Grant Hill is a Pippen clone, just smoother. Lebron, Lamar Odom, believe it or not Anthony Mason. Chris Mullin had his qualities, as he was like a Brooklyn version of Larry Bird (somehow less athletic). He had legit handles.


But point forwards aren't exactly the most common thing and you can't identify them solely by passing and playmaking. Bird is a top 5 passer of all-time but he's not really a point forward. People have been saying it about Pierce, who has lots of handles, but I don't think he's one either. Same for McGrady (2guard anyway).




LOL top 3 in the NBA. He wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, DRob, Barkley, Ewing, or Malone



From 93 on he was better than Barkley. At least by midway point of 93/94, when Barkley's back really gave out.




Scottie was no worse than #2 in 93/94 and in 94/95 I think he was top 3. So there you go.

[Sarcastic]

I have a hard time putting Pippen in the top 3 of any year. I would put Olajuwon, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Ewing as better than him at almost any point. They were all solidified #1 options.

Put it this way, if Pippen joined any of those guys, he would have been #2 to all of them.

He actually did join Olajuwon and Barkley in 1999 when he was 33, and should have still been in his prime, and he was clearly the 3rd option then. Barkley and Olajuwon were 35 and 36 years old respectively.

[Whoah10115]

I have a hard time putting Pippen in the top 3 of any year. I would put Olajuwon, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Ewing as better than him at almost any point. They were all solidified #1 options.

Put it this way, if Pippen joined any of those guys, he would have been #2 to all of them.

He actually did join Olajuwon and Barkley in 1999 when he was 33, and should have still been in his prime, and he was clearly the 3rd option then. Barkley and Olajuwon were 35 and 36 years old respectively.




Pippen's back was screwed and he was joining two great players. He wasn't in his prime and neither were they, but they were already there. And that would always have been Hakeem's team.



Scottie Pippen was the #1 option from 93-95. No argument for Barkley over in either of those years. Ewing has no argument over him in 94. That Bulls team won 2 fewer games than the Knicks. That was incredible. The real reason anyone else had a case over him in 95 was because the team was so average that they're record was below par. Even when Jordan was back, during the regular season, Pippen was playing better.

[Sarcastic]

The moment Jordan came back, he was the #1 option again, and Jordan was completely out of basketball shape after playing baseball for so long.

[RRR3]

The moment Jordan came back, he was the #1 option again, and Jordan was completely out of basketball shape after playing baseball for so long.
Probably because Jordan is the GOAT?

[ShaqAttack3234]

If we're talking point forwards, even Larry Bird isn't a point forward. Scottie might have been the first (some people would call Oscar a SF tho). Grant Hill is a Pippen clone, just smoother. Lebron, Lamar Odom, believe it or not Anthony Mason. Chris Mullin had his qualities, as he was like a Brooklyn version of Larry Bird (somehow less athletic). He had legit handles.

Paul Pressey is often credited as the first point forward, though I believe Don Nelson used Marques Johnson as one first.

Pippen was one, except not as much when MJ was gone in '94 and '95, he asked to return to that role late in the '95 season. He really started developing into that role late in the '91 season and playoffs, but more in '92. He probably played as one longer than anyone I can think of.

Grant Hill was also definitely one in Detroit. Phil tried Odom in the role in '06 and to a lesser extent '07. You're right about Anthony Mason as well, he did it various times throughout his career. First during Don Nelson's brief stint in NY, and later in Charlotte.

Lebron as well, though Mike Brown had Larry Hughes at PG sometimes, and later Mo Williams, and Lebron was more of a scorer than the others.

Bird wasn't really one like the others were. He'd run screen/rolls with Parish sometimes, but didn't handle the ball nearly as much on the perimeter.


But point forwards aren't exactly the most common thing and you can't identify them solely by passing and playmaking. Bird is a top 5 passer of all-time but he's not really a point forward. People have been saying it about Pierce, who has lots of handles, but I don't think he's one either. Same for McGrady (2guard anyway).

Agreed. A lot of star perimeter players will play a similar role at times throughout a game, but Pierce has usually been a scorer and was also a 2 guard earlier in his career. McGrady has played guard a lot more than forward. He was starting in the backcourt with Doug Christie with Vince at the 3 towards the end of his time in Toronto. He played SF his first 2 seasons in Houston, but was usually more of a scorer who had to handle the ball a lot due to a lack of supporting talent. He was more of a facilitator than ever in '07, though, and was really deferring to Yao early in the season.


From 93 on he was better than Barkley. At least by midway point of 93/94, when Barkley's back really gave out.

I'd agree, that '94 season was really the end of Chuck's prime because he wasn't consistently healthy after that. He started the '93-'94 season off really well, but didn't look like the player he once was by the Houston series.


Scottie was no worse than #2 in 93/94 and in 94/95 I think he was top 3. So there you go.

He was up there, I wouldn't say no worse than number 2. Definitely in the discussion for top 5.

I'd definitely have him below Hakeem, Shaq and Robinson in '95. Maybe Malone off the top of my head.

'94 is tougher, Hakeem was clearly the best, but Pippen was right up there after that. Robinson had a monster year, but a terrible playoff series after Malone shut him down. Shaq was also still raw, Ewing had lost a step despite being very good. Malone was in his prime, though. Those are the other guys who I'd say had the best cases over Pippen.

I think I'd have him top 5 both years



He actually did join Olajuwon and Barkley in 1999 when he was 33, and should have still been in his prime, and he was clearly the 3rd option then. Barkley and Olajuwon were 35 and 36 years old respectively.

What do you mean should've been in his prime? He wasn't in his prime due to age and injuries, and how many players are in their primes at 33? Hakeem was maybe at the end of his prime, and he started playing basketball late and peaked at an unusually late age, and Kareem and Malone are the others who were towards the end of their primes, and they had the most unusual longevity of any all-time greats. Maybe Nash as well.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Way too early. At least wait till he wins a couple. There's no way Durant is pat Scottie on all time list right now.

They are different types of players as well. It's hard to compare them. Durant is a scorer, a great shooter with length and athleticism. creates mismatches against most small forwards and can flat out score. Pippen is a small forward that can run your offense like a point guard, and is also one of the best on ball defenders in the league, as well as a great off ball defender. He can crash the boards like a PF, and score as well. Think of Pippen like LeBron minus some of his scoring ability.

[97 bulls]

I have a hard time putting Pippen in the top 3 of any year. I would put Olajuwon, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Ewing as better than him at almost any point. They were all solidified #1 options.

Put it this way, if Pippen joined any of those guys, he would have been #2 to all of them.

He actually did join Olajuwon and Barkley in 1999 when he was 33, and should have still been in his prime, and he was clearly the 3rd option then. Barkley and Olajuwon were 35 and 36 years old respectively.
I think youd take those guys over pippen because they were bigger names. And were more established.

But looking back, pippen was evey bit as dominant and in most cases more dominant than the players mentioned in 94 and 95.

I mean, the most prestigious awards are mvp, dpoy, all nba, and all defense. Pippen finished top 3 in the mvp voting, top 4 in dpoy, and led in voting for all nba and all defense in 94.

And finished as the leading vote getter for the all defense, and was second in the dpoy award in 95. And i believe was the leading vote getter for all nba too.

You cant be ranked that high in those categories and not be top 3. And remember, his competition were alltime greats haviing their best careers.

[Clippersfan86]

Glad to see Shaqattack agree with me that Pippen is a superior rebounding. As I said he's far more aggressive on the boards than Durant, especially the offensive glass. This is a perfect case of why you don't go purely by numbers. With my own eyes I saw Pippen be a much more fierce player on the glass. I've never seen Durant "crash" the glass. With him it's more his length/athleticism and just grabbing rebounds in his area.

[97 bulls]

I have a hard time putting Pippen in the top 3 of any year. I would put Olajuwon, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Ewing as better than him at almost any point. They were all solidified #1 options.

Put it this way, if Pippen joined any of those guys, he would have been #2 to all of them.

He actually did join Olajuwon and Barkley in 1999 when he was 33, and should have still been in his prime, and he was clearly the 3rd option then. Barkley and Olajuwon were 35 and 36 years old respectively.
Please cutt the nonsense sarc. Countless times in this thread people have informed you that noone is arguing whos offensive game is better between durant and pippen. Durant is clearly better. But you cant say one player is better than another based on the pecking order of the shots taken.

Tyson chamdler wasnt even an option for the mavs. But he was theiir second best player over terry, marion and co.

How bout be wallace?

Dennis rodman with the spurs?

[Sarcastic]

Steve Nash won back to back MVPs.

Does anyone actually think that he was better than Shaq or Kobe in those years?

[97 bulls]

Steve Nash won back to back MVPs.

Does anyone actually think that he was better than Shaq or Kobe in those years?and most people feel he didnt deserve the mvps he won
It wasnt just that. It was pippen s ovrall floor game. And notice that pippen ranked high in the mvp and dpoy award voting.

As far as nash, i do feel he was probably top 5.

[Simple Jack]

and most people feel he didnt deserve the mvps he won
It wasnt just that. It was pippen s ovrall floor game. And notice that pippen ranked high in the mvp and dpoy award voting.

As far as nash, i do feel he was probably top 5.

Who's most people? He had a great argument for his first MVP and I'm not sure people were overall disappointed with the selection. The 2nd one, which put him in a different class of MVP winners is what started the talk.

[1987_Lakers]

As far as peak play? Yes.

OKC loses vs the Spurs if you replace Durant with Pippen.

[tpols]

As far as peak play? Yes.

OKC loses vs the Spurs if you replace Durant with Pippen.
What makes you say that?

[G-train]

Durant is already a better scorer than Pippen ever was.
But Pippen combo of scoring/defence puts him above Durant atm.

[1987_Lakers]

What makes you say that?
29.5 PPG
7.5 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
1.5 BPG
.532 FG%

In the WCF vs the so called "best team in the league". Pippen never had a series like that. Pippen never led a team to the Finals. Pippen was never considered to be a top 3 player in the league like Durant is now.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at the obsession with scoring. Using that logic Gilbert Arenas and Michael Redd>Pippen too. Durant has a case but looking strictly at scoring is foolish.

Regarding "20" ppg, he finished above that 4x and was at 21 ppg--hovering around 9th-12th in the league in 96' while playing with MJ--before he got injured and finished with 19 ppg. "20" is very convenient since he finished at 19 ppg in 93', 96', and 98' and was at 18 ppg in 91'.


I would put Olajuwon, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, and Ewing as better than him at almost any point. They were all solidified #1 options.

Put it this way, if Pippen joined any of those guys, he would have been #2 to all of them.

Again this is based on fuzzy notions of "#1 option." Pippen finished ahead of Malone and especially Barkley in all-NBA voting several times. In reality Scottie Pippen finished #1 in all-NBA, #1 in all-defensive voting in 94' and was #2 and #1 respectively in 96' yet people throw around empty labels based on perception such as "#2." Pippen scores 1-2 less ppg than, say, Barkley or Ewing, fares better--at the time--in terms of accolades in a season like 94' or 95' yet some people act as if we are comparing Gasol to Dwight, an actual "#2-type" player with a "#1"?




Durant has improved each year, especially this year, but they're so different, it's hard to compare them. Pippen was obviously not in Durant's class as a scorer, but how much do you value your 6'8" forward running your offense while being the best perimeter help defender in the league, being more than capable of guarding elite players at multiple positions, rebounding like a PF and still scoring 20+ ppg?

His defensive impact goes beyond what a guy like Bruce Bowen could do. He could completely disrupt a team's offense whether it was denying the entry pass, stripping the post player, taking away the passing lanes, you really had to be alert when you were playing against Scottie Pippen.

Both Durant and Pippen are very good open court players, but Durant is more of a finisher exclusively, Pippen was a great finisher himself, but was really dangerous handling the ball in the open court. He ranks among the best open court players of all time, imo. He did not have Durant's half court scoring ability because he wasn't close to the shooter Durant is, but Pippen developed a post game and could go to the jump hook. He could use the glass, he improved his outside shot throughout his career and extended his range to 3 point territory in '94, and he was dangerous off the dribble because his handles were above average for a forward and he was such a good finisher he could get right to the basket because of his long arms. Pippen would also find the shooters in the corner when the defense collapsed on him.

I don't think you can automatically say the all around guy is better, or that the great scorer is better, you have to take it on a case by case basis. Durant's improvement this year has made it really difficult for me.

I can't compare Durant to Pippen's full '92-'97 prime yet, but I would take '94-'96 Pippen over '10-'12 Durant. And as far as peak? Durant may have not reached his yet, but I wil lean towards '94 Pippen over current Durant. That one is very close, close enough that I may change my mind on it.



He's talking about prime. I'd definitely take Durant over English.



Westbrook has become as much of the first option in OKC as Durant. Durant is still OKC's best player obviously, but being a 1st option doesn't automatically make you better.

Pippen averaged 20+ 4 times, and he was easily over 20 ppg in '96 before the ankle injury, he finished at 19.4 ppg.

And nobody would argue that Durant is a better scorer than Pippen, if that was the question of the thread, this wouldn't have lasted a page.



That's because the '95 team lost Horace Grant and had a weak frontcourt. Look at what happened in the Orlando series even with MJ. Horace Grant killed them.

The Bulls were still a winning team even before MJ returned. And Pippen was playing with a cast of Kukoc(in his second year), BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Will Perdue, past his prime Ron Harper, Luc Longley and Pete Myers.

What do you expect Durant to do with that cast? The fact that they were still over .500 without MJ or Grant only helps Pippen's case.



Pippen was definitely a better rebounder than Durant. Durant gets almost no offensive rebounds. And Pippen's teams played at a slower pace than any of Durant's OKC teams from the '93 season on.

Look at the '94 season. The Bulls pace was 91.9(slower than any of Durant's OKC teams). Pippen averaged 8.7 rpg and 2.4 offensive rebounds, while playing with an 11 rpg PF Horace Grant on a team that outrebounded opponents by 3.8 rpg. Pippen's rebounding numbers were lowered after '95 because he was playing with Rodman, and Chicago's pace got even slower.

A 34 year old Pippen was still averaging 6.3 rpg in 33.5 mpg on a very slow-paced Blazer team(89.9 pace) with great size who outrebounded opponents by 4 rpg.



True, the best scorers will often just be off when they struggle, and when they're on, there's not much even the best defender can do. A defender can have a hand in slowing them down, but even then, it usually takes a team effort to slow down the truly elite scorers.

But on the other hand, scorers are more likely to have off nights, as guys like Russell and KG have said, defense will be a constant.

:bowdown:

[G-train]

Who's most people? He had a great argument for his first MVP and I'm not sure people were overall disappointed with the selection. The 2nd one, which put him in a different class of MVP winners is what started the talk.

He didn't have a great argument at all for the first one. It was total bull then and now, he was embarrassed to receive it over Shaq. It started with the first one, all the rumours that the white press voted him in. Shaq and then AI were the 2 front runners all season. Total Bs joke.

Sure Nash was the PG on a 33 win turnaround, but it was just as much to do with getting rid of Marbury as it was acquiring Nash, and a training camp with D'antoni. Plus amare went from 55 games at 20ppg to 80 games of total domination. Nash was arguably the teams third best player behind Stoudemire and Marion. Yet he won best player in the league.

PATHETIC.

[G-train]

Pippen was never considered to be a top 3 player in the league like Durant is now.

That's false.

[tpols]

29.5 PPG
7.5 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
1.5 BPG
.532 FG%

In the WCF vs the so called "best team in the league". Pippen never had a series like that. Pippen never led a team to the Finals. Pippen was never considered to be a top 3 player in the league like Durant is now.
Pippen could/would have averaged more assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks and would have made OKC's defense godly. Sure he wouldnt have given you the sick scoring but hed still give you 20+.. and his D would have the Spurs looking a whole lot worse. Manu doesnt go off for those big scroing performances on insane efficciency that won SAS a game in the series and kept them in a few more with Scottie on him.

Pippen has never, ever had a team around him, as the man, as good as this OKC squad.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was never considered to be a top 3 player in the league like Durant is now.

By what measure? He was considered top 5 by most during his best years and several people would place him in the top 3 during his peak (Jordan had him #1 in 1995, SI and Bob Ryan had him at #2, Doug Collins and Chris Webber had him at #1, to name a few people at the time). There is a level of revisionist history regarding him. Keep in mind Pippen played in an era dominated by centers; Durant is in an era of perimeter players. Pippen easily was the second best perimeter player of the 90's behind Jordan.

In 1994 only Hakeem was clearly better than Pippen. The vast majority of people would put Robinson ahead of him as well but Pippen has a very good case for being top 3 that year, although Ewing, Shaq, and Malone would have cases over him. The "#1" thing is laughable. Pippen as "#1" led his team to more wins than Shaq, Malone and as many as Robinson and only 2 less than Ewing and 3 less than Hakeem that very season--and this was with losing his starting SG two days before training camp and replacing him with a CBA (D-League) player.

In 1995 Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq were better with Pippen and Malone fighting for #4 and #5.

In 1996 Pippen was probably behind Jordan, Hakeem, and for the season finishes ahead of Shaq since Shaq missed a large chunk of the season. You could put Robinson above him as well.

In 1997 he had a case for being top 5 again and would in 1998 if he did not miss half the season.

The Malone and Barkley stuff is particularly amusing because Pippen killed his fellow forwards in all-NBA voting in 94', finished ahead of them in 96' and beat Barkley in 95' while winning as many votes as Malone. The notion that those guys were a class above him those years is revisionist history based on agendas or simply confusing their peak versions with their 94'-96' versions. Just go back and look at how they were perceived at the time.

Was he ever top 3? That is debatable but he definitely was considered top 5 by most people during his best years. The notion that he was on a level below that is misleading at best. Durant would not be top 3 in a league featuring Jordan, Shaq and peak Hakeem either so what is the point?

Was Durant ever considered the best perimeter player? Where would Durant rank in a big man dominated league?


Pippen never led a team to the Finals.

That is funny since you phrase it in a way that disqualifies all of Pippen's prime years except for 1994. Durant would never "lead" a team to the Finals playing with MJ either so what is the point? Pippen has 6 rings; Durant still has not won one but we are going to hang our hats on "leading" a team? How does Durant playing with Westbrook instead of Jordan make him a better player?


29.5 PPG
7.5 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
1.5 BPG
.532 FG%

In the WCF vs the so called "best team in the league". Pippen never had a series like that.

Yeah--he never had a 29.5 ppg type series but he had numerous series where his statline beat Durant's in every other category listed.

Regarding scoring, KG and Magic Johnson's best scoring year was 24 ppg. Does that mean Arenas and Michael Redd were better? :lol The object of basktetball is winning. Durant scores 8-10 more than Pippen but he usually averages less than 3.0 assists and his best is 3.5. Pippen produces more points for the team passing the ball. Pippen collects more rebounds, particularly offensively which nets more points for his teams. Pippen's defense denies the other team more points than Durant's. When you factor all this in the 8-10 scoring advantage is offset.

Durant may be the better player--his peak almost certainly will trump Scottie's--but the idea that because Durant scores 28 ppg and 28 pgg>20-22 ppg that he is automatically better ignores the reality of basketball and what it takes to win games. This isn't baseball where you can compare players pretty much based on batting average and home runs.

[Da Hammer]

Pippen was like literally better at every other single aspect of the game than Durant outside of scoring. So please no. Just enjoy Durant's game and maybe 3 to 5 years from now we can start debating his all time rankings.

[G-Funk]

Faaaaaawwwwwwwkkkk Noooooooooo!

[dee-rose]

Greatest perimeter defender of all time.
Top 3 passing forward of all time.
:coleman:

[eliteballer]

I wouldn't say surpassed. Pippen is just so much more dominant in the all around facets of the game(running the offense, defense, rebounding etc) while Durant is so much more dominant as a scorer. On a similar level as far as impact goes though

Dont know what this already stuff is. Players hit their primes earlier now because of things like AAU, greater exposure to the game and training techniques at younger ages etc. Doesnt mean they reach higher peaks or anything because everybody has their ceiling, its just when they hit it thats the difference.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen could/would have averaged more assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks and would have made OKC's defense godly. Sure he wouldnt have given you the sick scoring but hed still give you 20+.. and his D would have the Spurs looking a whole lot worse. Manu doesnt go off for those big scroing performances on insane efficciency that won SAS a game in the series and kept them in a few more with Scottie on him.

Pippen has never, ever had a team around him, as the man, as good as this OKC squad.

More rebounds? Maybe, but not by much that would make it a true advantage. Same with assists, Durant averaged 5 assists this series, I doubt Pippen goes over 6. Pippen provides better defense, but Durant this whole season has been playing very good D. In crunch time I'll take a guy like Durant on my team any day, amazing scorer/shooter who is clutch as **** and gives you 10 more points than Pippen. 10 points is alot.

[1987_Lakers]

That's false.

At his peak when was Pippen considered to be better than Hakeem, Shaq, & Robinson?

[tpols]

More rebounds? Maybe, but not by much that would make it a true advantage. Same with assists, Durant averaged 5 assists this series, I doubt Pippen goes over 6. Pippen provides better defense, but Durant this whole season has been playing very good D. In crunch time I'll take a guy like Durant on my team any day, amazing scorer/shooter who is clutch as **** and gives you 10 more points than Pippen. 10 points is alot.
I know it is.. but the way I look at it is this.

Prime Pippen would be a top 3 player in this league today. You have LBJ, Durant, and who else competing? CP3? Kobe? Wade? Pippen was a monster ball player and there arent many monster players in the league playing today outside of a few. You give a NBA legend and top 3 player in the league the BEST supporting cast and I think he has a shot to beat the Spurs..

[eliteballer]

Even at his peak there were plenty who thought Grant Hill was the best SF in the league

[1987_Lakers]

I know it is.. but the way I look at it is this.

Prime Pippen would be a top 3 player in this league today. You have LBJ, Durant, and who else competing? CP3? Kobe? Wade?

How about Dwight Howard as well?

LeBron, Durant, Howard, Kobe, a healthy Wade & MAYBE CP3 would all be better players than Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

At his peak when was Pippen considered to be better than Hakeem, Shaq, & Robinson?

When would Kevin Durant be considered better than them? The comparison in this thread is Pippen vs. Durant, not who ranked better relative to the league when they played. The answer to your question obviously is 94' when some would put Pippen ahead of Shaq based on experience and leadership.


Prime Pippen would be a top 3 player in this league today. You have LBJ, Durant, and who else competing? CP3? Kobe? Wade?

Exactly. That is the relevant comparison. Lebron clearly would be better than Pippen but he would have a case over Durant and the 2012 versions of Kobe, Wade and maybe Howard as well. You could place Pippen at his best anywhere from 2nd to 5th in today's league but let's not act as if Durant was at a far different level than Pippen.

How about reversing the question? Send 2012 Durant to 1994-1997. Excluding Pippen for obvious reasons, would he be better than Shaq, Hakeem, Jordan, Malone, and Robinson?

[atljonesbro]

I know it is.. but the way I look at it is this.

Prime Pippen would be a top 3 player in this league today. You have LBJ, Durant, and who else competing? CP3? Kobe? Wade? Pippen was a monster ball player and there arent many monster players in the league playing today outside of a few. You give a NBA legend and top 3 player in the league the BEST supporting cast and I think he has a shot to beat the Spurs..

Based on what? Nothing. You keep worshiping your 80s 90s gods, Toni Kukoc to you is probably a top 10 player in todays league to you.

If I had a brand new team and I could pick between Durant and Pippen I would pick Durant without hesitation. Durant is an elite scorer who is also good in other areas of the game where pippen isnt an elite scorer. 23 ppg best case senario, maybe 25 ppg on the bobcats. KD is a 30+ ppg threat every year.

[iamgine]

Pippen himself said that it would be harder for him to defend based on today's rules so how much worse will he be defensively today is hard to determine.

On the same note, he might also be better offensively today due to the rule change.

[Roundball_Rock]

If I had a brand new team and I could pick between Durant and Pippen I would pick Durant without hesitation. Durant is an elite scorer who is also good in other areas of the game where pippen isnt an elite scorer. 23 ppg best case senario, maybe 25 ppg on the bobcats. KD is a 30+ ppg threat every year.

Let's run the numbers.

Durant has been over 28 ppg once. 28 ppg>20-22 ppg by 6-8 points. 6-7 assists (in the triangle--put him in a normal system and credit him with, say, 7-8.5 assists)>2.5-3.5 assists, 8-9 rebounds>7 rebounds (and nearly no offensive boards), 3 steals>1 steal and elite defense>KD's defense. Who comes out ahead? This illustrates why the Lebron vs. Durant comparisons are a joke. Durant is comparable, probably slightly better as a scorer but he doesn't hold a candle to Lebron in any other area of the game.

[tpols]

How about Dwight Howard as well?

LeBron, Durant, Howard, Kobe, a healthy Wade & MAYBE CP3 would all be better players than Pippen.
I would take Pippen over Howard. Old Kobe and declining Wade over prime Pippen? I dont think so.. Hes at absolute worst a top 5 player in the league with the best supporting cast. I think they would still beat the spurs but this is all hypothetical.

[tpols]

At his peak when was Pippen considered to be better than Hakeem, Shaq, & Robinson?
lol Durant wouldnt even touch those guys in their primes right now.

[atljonesbro]

Durant has been over 28 ppg once. 28 ppg>20-22 ppg by 6-8 points. 7 assists>3 assists, 8-9 rebounds>7 rebounds (and nearly 0 offensive boards), 3 steals>1 steal and elite defense>KD's defense. Who comes out ahead? This illustrates why the Lebron vs. Durant comparisons are a joke. Durant is comparable, probably slightly better as a scorer but he doesn't hold a candle to Lebron in any other area of the game.
Would you take Melo or Iggy to lead your team? Elite Scorer>All around player Offense>Defense. Would you take Carmelo (great scorer pretty much nothing else) or Tony Allen (great defender pretty much nothing else)? EASY answer 28 ppg, 8 rpg, 3 apg, 1.5 apg, with the ability to take over a game and hit clutch shots>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>21 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 3 spg with a 2nd options mindset most of his career, can't take over a game as effectively, not as clutch.

[1987_Lakers]

lol Durant wouldnt even touch those guys in their primes right now.

I didn't say he would. Just pointing out facts.

[1987_Lakers]

Would you take Melo or Iggy to lead your team? Elite Scorer>All around player Offense>Defense. Would you take Carmelo (great scorer pretty much nothing else) or Tony Allen (great defender pretty much nothing else)? EASY answer 28 ppg, 8 rpg, 3 apg, 1.5 apg, with the ability to take over a game and hit clutch shots>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>21 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 3 spg with a 2nd options mindset most of his career, can't take over a game as effectively, not as clutch.

This guy gets it. 30 ppg scoring overcomes a good all-around game with 20 ppg scoring.

[iamgine]

Would you take Melo or Iggy to lead your team? Elite Scorer>All around player Offense>Defense. Would you take Carmelo (great scorer pretty much nothing else) or Tony Allen (great defender pretty much nothing else)? EASY answer 28 ppg, 8 rpg, 3 apg, 1.5 apg, with the ability to take over a game and hit clutch shots>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>21 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 3 spg with a 2nd options mindset most of his career, can't take over a game as effectively, not as clutch.

The one leading team doesn't have to be top scorer. i.e Steve Nash, Magic Johnson.

[G-train]

At his peak when was Pippen considered to be better than Hakeem, Shaq, & Robinson?

In 1994 he was, yes. He was widely thought of as a top 3 player. Probably Hakeem then him. For that one season.

[Nevaeh]

Pippen himself said that it would be harder for him to defend based on today's rules so how much worse will he be defensively today is hard to determine.

On the same note, he might also be better offensively today due to the rule change.

If Pip received the "Star" treatment, I think he could easily average 24-25 ppg. But he would definitely need a Westbrook or Parker type pg, to take some of the offensive pressure off of him though.

"Rampage Scoring" was never really Scottie's gift anyway, so he would never have a problem deferring to an offensive minded player.

As for the Title Question, all I can do is :facepalm at that one, and I'm not even a big fan of that emoticon. Pippen's body of work is simply too vast right now, to rank Durant over Pip, without even including the rings in the discussion.

[1987_Lakers]

In 1994 he was, yes. He was widely thought of as a top 3 player. Probably Hakeem then him. For that one season.

94
D-Rob averaged 30 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 2 spg
Shaq averaged 29 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 bpg, 60 fg%

You must be on some :biggums: if you think Pippen was better than those players.

[atljonesbro]

The one leading team doesn't have to be top scorer. i.e Steve Nash, Magic Johnson.
PGs vs SFs.... The fact of the matter is a Carmelo Anthony led team will normally do better than an iggy based year.

Look if this was talking about a past player vs a current player this wouldn't even be a debate, everyone would pick KD EASY because of his elite scoring. Scottie Pippen is a poor Mans LeBron and some people here take Durant over LeBron. It's unreal. I know almost all of this forum has a HUGE hard on for 80s 90s players and will do whatever it takes to put them on a pedestal.

[iamgine]

PGs vs SFs.... The fact of the matter is a Carmelo Anthony led team will normally do better than an iggy based year.

Look if this was talking about a past player vs a current player this wouldn't even be a debate, everyone would pick KD EASY because of his elite scoring. Scottie Pippen is a poor Mans LeBron and some people here take Durant over LeBron. It's unreal. I know almost all of this forum has a HUGE hard on for 80s 90s players and will do whatever it takes to put them on a pedestal.
Thing is, Pippen set up the offense like those PGs too.

Also, Bill Russel.

[Heilige]

Like I said, I'm not comparing them in the all-time lists due to Pippen's obvious accomplishments and longevity but I am comparing them in terms of their peak play and at their absolute best.

For example, Lebron probably surpassed Pippen at their absolute peaks in like 2007 or 2008 but we all know Pippen was probably ranked above him in the all-time list still.


Why does it matter? Why are you even speculating on this at the moment?

[talkingconch]

No

[tpols]

PGs vs SFs.... The fact of the matter is a Carmelo Anthony led team will normally do better than an iggy based year.

Look if this was talking about a past player vs a current player this wouldn't even be a debate, everyone would pick KD EASY because of his elite scoring. Scottie Pippen is a poor Mans LeBron and some people here take Durant over LeBron. It's unreal. I know almost all of this forum has a HUGE hard on for 80s 90s players and will do whatever it takes to put them on a pedestal.
Iggy to Melo is a horrible analogy for Pippen to Durant.. because the Gap between Pippen and Iggy is oceans and oceans bigger than the gap between Melo and Durant.

[Smoke117]

Pippen himself said that it would be harder for him to defend based on today's rules so how much worse will he be defensively today is hard to determine.

On the same note, he might also be better offensively today due to the rule change.


Maybe one on one, but Pippens best attribute as a defender and what made him so dominant was his help defense. With zone allowed now he could just roam around the entire court all game long as he pleased. It was always a waste of Pippens defense to put him on the opposing players best scorer because what he did best was disrupt your offense when he was able to play off his man. That is what he did to the Jazz in the 97 and 98 finals. Hell Jerry Sloan was all pissed off saying that Pippen was getting away with playing zone. You don't even even to worry about that anymore. The reason the 95 Bulls were still great defensively even with no Grant or Jordan was because of Scottie's help defense.

Besides there are players like Kevin Garnett who played under the older rules and the newer rules and have done just fine defensively. You don't become labeled as the greatest perimeter defender of all time because you have a low basketball IQ. Pippen had one of the highest basketball IQ's of anyone who has ever played. What he said about the rule changes and playing defense was more about of contempt than anything else. He wasn't saying: "No I could not adapt to playing defense within these rules". The guy was still one of the best defenders at SF when he was 36, 37 that last year on the Blazers with a bad back and two bad knees, so I think he'd be fine.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Hes on the right track, but still needs alot more work. Dude needs to surpass Carmelo Anthony and then Lebron James before we can compare him to Pippen.

[ihatetimthomas]

Hes on the right track, but still needs alot more work. Dude needs to surpass Carmelo Anthony and then Lebron James before we can compare him to Pippen.

This trip to the finals makes it clearcut he has surpassed Melo. What has Melo accomplished? WCF once? Great scorer, but Durant easily above Melo. 3x scoring champ and 3x all NBA first team. Melo never even got all nba first team once.

[OKCThunderUP]

This trip to the finals makes it clearcut he has surpassed Melo. What has Melo accomplished? WCF once? Great scorer, but Durant easily above Melo. 3x scoring champ and 3x all NBA first team. Melo never even got all nba first team once.

Don't feed the troll.

[Micku]

Yes and no. Durant is obviously the better scorer, shooter, and more clutch. but prime Pippen is better at everything else. But Durant efficient scoring could more valuable than Pippen's all around game to build your team around. Durant could possibly get more wins, but you don't really know because each team would work differently.

With that said, you don't really know. They have different style and in two different eras. Would this Thunder team still get to the Finals with Pippen on the team? Would the Bulls successful with Durant on the 94 Bulls instead of Pippen?

[1987_Lakers]

PGs vs SFs.... The fact of the matter is a Carmelo Anthony led team will normally do better than an iggy based year.

Look if this was talking about a past player vs a current player this wouldn't even be a debate, everyone would pick KD EASY because of his elite scoring. Scottie Pippen is a poor Mans LeBron and some people here take Durant over LeBron. It's unreal. I know almost all of this forum has a HUGE hard on for 80s 90s players and will do whatever it takes to put them on a pedestal.

This is an excellent point. People here are starting to say that Durant is better than LeBron, yet they won't admit he was a better player than prime Pippen who is not on LeBron's level. It makes no sense. I guarantee you if prime Pippen was in the NBA today, the majority of fans would consider Durant to be better.

[TAZORAC]

Prime Pippen in todays league would be better than LeBron and Durant.

"PRIME PIPPEN" IS PAUL PIERCE

[Nevaeh]

This is an excellent point. People here are starting to say that Durant is better than LeBron, yet they won't admit he was a better player than prime Pippen who is not on LeBron's level. It makes no sense. I guarantee you if prime Pippen was in the NBA today, the majority of fans would consider Durant to be better.


I think peeps are taking into consideration Pip's ENTIRE CAREER, and not just a few of his years versus a few of Durant's years, 1987. Based on the Thread Title, it seems to imply "Has Durant's career already surpassed Pip's career" and, at this point, it sure as hell hasn't.

[1987_Lakers]

I think peeps are taking into consideration Pip's ENTIRE CAREER, and not just a few of his years versus a few of Durant's years, 1987. Based on the Thread Title, it seems to imply "Has Durant's career already surpassed Pip's career" and, at this point, it sure as hell hasn't.

The OP clearly said he was talking about peak/prime play.

[unbreakable]

. I guarantee you if prime Pippen was in the NBA today, the majority of fans would consider Durant to be better.

this niggggga. :facepalm

prime pip would lock durants skinny floppin ass down :coleman:

[1987_Lakers]

this niggggga. :facepalm

prime pip would lock durants skinny floppin ass down :coleman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

[unbreakable]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

:facepalm

rookie pippen getting hazed by one of the toughest enforcers in NBA history. da fuq is your point?

kids these days i swear.... no respect. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

:facepalm

rookie pippen getting hazed by one of the toughest enforcers in NBA history. da fuq is your point?

kids these days i swear.... no respect. :confusedshrug:

It was obviously a joke post.:facepalm

[unbreakable]

It was obviously a joke post.:facepalm

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/nevermind/grand/nevermind-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-214.gif

[97 bulls]

PGs vs SFs.... The fact of the matter is a Carmelo Anthony led team will normally do better than an iggy based year.

Look if this was talking about a past player vs a current player this wouldn't even be a debate, everyone would pick KD EASY because of his elite scoring. Scottie Pippen is a poor Mans LeBron and some people here take Durant over LeBron. It's unreal. I know almost all of this forum has a HUGE hard on for 80s 90s players and will do whatever it takes to put them on a pedestal.
Lol really? We have an example off this using this season. The iggy led sixers overachieved and the melo led kniicks drastically underachieved. The knicks had one of the most talented teams this year but barely made the playoffs. Too much stock is put into scoring. The most important thing is to win.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Durant right now is easily better than Pippen ever was. He legitimately dominates games and takes them over when needed.

[Clippersfan86]

I can tell you this..... if he leads the Thunder to the title this year and wins finals MVP while being clearly the best player I'd say he's right there with Pippen, already at 23. Guy is growing up before our very eyes. I remember last year when we were debating Rose vs Durant vs Griffin to build around.... now it's Durant by a good margn. The guy has improved every flaw pretty damn rapidly.

[Roundball_Rock]

The scoring thing is amusing. Using that logic Gilbert Arenas>Magic and Michael Redd>Bill Russell. There is a case for Durant but saying 28 ppg>21 ppg and therefore he is superior even though he generates less points for the offense via playmaking, denies less points on defense and does not increase his team's possessions and hence points totals as much with less rebounding, particularly offensive rebounding which Durant doesn't do--despite being 6'10". Then there is versatility. Pippen could play and guard 4 positions.

Regarding Pippen's perception at the time, this is interesting from another thread:


1996 USA TODAY surveyed NBA players, coaches, trainers and general managers in seven
different
categories. Of 435 ballots distributed, 301 (69%) were returned. Voters could
pick teammates, their own
coach or home arena. All selections were confidential. The results:
Best player
Player Team Points
1. Michael Jordan Chicago 132
2. Hakeem Olajuwon Houston 25
3. Scottie Pippen Chicago 19
4. Anfernee Hardaway Orlando 7
5. Shaquille O'Neal Orlando 3
6. Grant Hill Detroit 2
(Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, David Robinson of San Antonio,
Charles Barkley of Phoenix,
Mitch Richmond of Sacramento and Shawn Kemp of Seattle each received one vote)

Players, coaches, and GM's from the time...I guess they didn't get the 28 ppg memo?


elite offensive ability.

Which is more than mere scoring. What does Durant do on offense beyond score? Gilbert Arenas was a 30 ppg scorer. :lol As stated previously Durant, even at this age, has a case over peak Pippen but the simple scoring obsession is amusing and no one really believes that. To believe that you also have to hold that Arenas, a comparable scorer to Durant, was better than peak Pippen or peak Isiah.

LOL at comparing Durant to Lebron. I am anti-Heat as well but the double standards are stunning. Durant is being celebrated as an all-time great merely for reaching the NBA finals once? Lebron has done so twice and reached the ECF 4 times.

[Indian guy]

Durant right now is easily better than Pippen ever was. He legitimately dominates games and takes them over when needed.

This. The single most important skill in basketball is possessing elite offensive ability. That's where the individual makes the biggest impact on the game. Durant's on a different planet as a scorer compared to Pip. He can carry teams and dominate. Pippen couldn't do that.

[IGOTGAME]

This. The single most important skill in basketball is possessing elite offensive ability. That's where the individual makes the biggest impact on the game. Durant's on a different planet as a scorer compared to Pip. He can carry teams and dominate. Pippen couldn't do that.

I would say the single most important skill in basketball is to be able to dominant defensively from the big position. I'd take prime Tim Duncan defense anchoring my squad over KDs offense.

[97 bulls]

Yes and no. Durant is obviously the better scorer, shooter, and more clutch. but prime Pippen is better at everything else. But Durant efficient scoring could more valuable than Pippen's all around game to build your team around. Durant could possibly get more wins, but you don't really know because each team would work differently.

With that said, you don't really know. They have different style and in two different eras. Would this Thunder team still get to the Finals with Pippen on the team? Would the Bulls successful with Durant on the 94 Bulls instead of Pippen?
Great points micku. Im glad people are beginning to discuss players based off both players strengths. Replace durant for pippen on this team to and you lose scoring, but you gain a level of defense that is unserpassed. Pippens defense is on the level of a dominant defensive center. He alone could literally strangle an opposing teams offense with his defensive ability, score 20ppg and run youre offense. People forget he ran the offense that is considered too hard for most players to learn, to six championships. And they were one of the top offenses every year. While durant kills you with amazing offense, and supremely clutch shooting, and solid defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

This. The single most important skill in basketball is possessing elite offensive ability. That's where the individual makes the biggest impact on the game. Durant's on a different planet as a scorer compared to Pip. He can carry teams and dominate. Pippen couldn't do that.

As Herm Edwards once said, you play to win the game. What matters is who gives you a greater chance at winning a game. Would you rather have Gilbert Arena's 29 ppg or Isiah Thomas? KG or Dominique Wilkins (elite scorer at 30-31 ppg at his peak!)? T-Mac or Magic? Carmelo or Dwight?

The Iggy comparison doesn't hold. We are talking about a 6-7 point differential, not comparing a 28 ppg guy to a 14 ppg guy and Iggy's advantages don't come close to offsetting such a difference in scoring.

:oldlol: at MJ fans always taking the anti-Pippen side of every Pippen question.

[Indian guy]

I would say the single most important skill in basketball is to be able to dominant defensively from the big position.

Not it isn't. Otherwise, Mutumbo and Ben Wallace would be considered Top 5 players. But they're not. They're just glorified role players. Scoring matters.


I'd take prime Tim Duncan defense anchoring my squad over KDs offense.

But Duncan's an excellent offensive player. You wouldn't take him over KD if he wasn't.

[97 bulls]

As Herm Edwards once said, you play to win the game. What matters is who gives you a greater chance at winning a game. Would you rather have Gilbert Arena's 29 ppg or Isiah Thomas? KG or Dominique Wilkins (elite scorer at 30-31 ppg at his peak!)? T-Mac or Magic? Carmelo or Dwight?

The Iggy comparison doesn't hold. We are talking about a 6-7 point differential, not comparing a 28 ppg guy to a 14 ppg guy and Iggy's advantages don't come close to offsetting such a difference in scoring.

:oldlol: at MJ fans always taking the anti-Pippen side of every Pippen question.
Exactly. Its about stats vs results. Not even stats, scoring vs results. Its about styles. The fact is pippen was just as dominant at what made him greaat, as durant is at what makes him great. Could durant pass pippen? Sure. But as far as talent? I wouldnt say durant is a better basketball player than pippen just because of their offense.

Even the lebron james/kevin durant comparison. Id see an argument for both players. But james is still much more talented than durant in my opinion. What hurts james legacy is his menatlity when he encounters pressure. Im not sure id take james over pippen. People forget, pippen never shied away form big moments. He just never had the opportunity to show what he could do. And one year isnt a fair assesment. And people love to allude to the last play vs the knicks iin 94 as example of pippen not stepping up in the clutch. But remember, he didnt sit out because the pressure was too big , he wanted the shot.

[amfirst]

Not yet, but he will be.

[Roundball_Rock]

But Duncan's an excellent offensive player. You wouldn't take him over KD if he wasn't.

Durant's three best scoring seasons: 30 pgg, 28 ppg, 28 ppg.
Duncan's three best scoring seasons: 25.5 ppg, 23 pgg, 23 ppg.
Pippen's three best scoring seasons: 22 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.

Is 23 ppg "elite" while 21 ppg isn't? :oldlol: Duncan was never a 30 ppg type scorer like KD, Melo or Arenas.

Hell, let's look at the three best scoring seasons for some other players:

Kevin Garnett: 24 ppg, 23 ppg, 23 ppg.
Dwight Howard: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.
Carmelo Anthony: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 27 ppg.
Gilbert Arenas: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 25.5 ppg.
Dominique Wilkins: 31 ppg, 30 ppg, 30 ppg.
Magic Johnson: 24 ppg, 22.5 ppg, 22 ppg.
Isiah Thomas: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg. (18 ppg during his two championship seasons.)

Good post, 97. People also ignore team roles. Durant is asked to produce 2-3 assists a night and do nothing on defense. Pippen was asked to be the team's primary playmaker, an elite defender and the team's #1 defender for most of his prime, while contributing 19-22 ppg.

The reason, when things are close, the all-around player gets the edge is in a series that is the guy who gives you a better chance to win. Durant is pretty much useless on nights when his shot is off, which inevitably will happen during the course of a series. Pippen could still dominate defensively (remember Game 3 against Utah when he scored only 8 or 10 points?) and do other things such as rebound and make plays to contribute when his shot was off.

[juju151111]

Durant has all around gm too and is way more clutch then Pippen.

[RaininTwos]

Durant has all around gm too and is way more clutch then Pippen.
I'm done.

[juju151111]

Durant's three best scoring seasons: 30 pgg, 28 ppg, 28 ppg.
Duncan's three best scoring seasons: 25.5 ppg, 23 pgg, 23 ppg.
Pippen's three best scoring seasons: 22 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.

Is 23 ppg "elite" while 21 ppg isn't? :oldlol: Duncan was never a 30 ppg type scorer like KD, Melo or Arenas.

Hell, let's look at the three best scoring seasons for some other players:

Kevin Garnett: 24 ppg, 23 ppg, 23 ppg.
Dwight Howard: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.
Carmelo Anthony: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 27 ppg.
Gilbert Arenas: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 25.5 ppg.
Dominique Wilkins: 31 ppg, 30 ppg, 30 ppg.
Magic Johnson: 24 ppg, 22.5 ppg, 22 ppg.
Isiah Thomas: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg. (18 ppg during his two championship seasons.)

Good post, 97. People also ignore team roles. Durant is asked to produce 2-3 assists a night and do nothing on defense. Pippen was asked to be the team's primary playmaker, an elite defender and the team's #1 defender for most of his prime, while contributing 19-22 ppg.
Durant is asked to play defense and has played the PF position multiple times. He got put on Kobe. He rebounds and has gotten others involve all this playoffs.

[juju151111]

I'm done.
You trying to say Durant doesn't play defense?

[Indian guy]

Durant's three best scoring seasons: 30 pgg, 28 ppg, 28 ppg.
Duncan's three best scoring seasons: 25.5 ppg, 23 pgg, 23 ppg.
Pippen's three best scoring seasons: 22 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.

Is 23 ppg "elite" while 21 ppg isn't? :oldlol: Duncan was never a 30 ppg type scorer like KD, Melo or Arenas.

Hell, let's look at the three best scoring seasons for some other players:

Kevin Garnett: 24 ppg, 23 ppg, 23 ppg.
Dwight Howard: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg.
Carmelo Anthony: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 27 ppg.
Gilbert Arenas: 29 ppg, 28 ppg, 25.5 ppg.
Dominique Wilkins: 31 ppg, 30 ppg, 30 ppg.
Magic Johnson: 24 ppg, 22.5 ppg, 22 ppg.
Isiah Thomas: 23 ppg, 21 ppg, 21 ppg. (18 ppg during his two championship seasons.)

Good post, 97. People also ignore team roles. Durant is asked to produce 2-3 assists a night and do nothing on defense. Pippen was asked to be the team's primary playmaker, an elite defender and the team's #1 defender for most of his prime, while contributing 19-22 ppg.

The reason, when things are close, the all-around player gets the edge is in a series that is the guy who gives you a better chance to win. Durant is pretty much useless on nights when his shot is off, which inevitably will happen during the course of a series. Pippen could still dominate defensively (remember Game 3 against Utah when he scored only 8 or 10 points?) and do other things such as rebound and make plays to contribute when his shot was off.

Big men are an exception to the "offensive rule", since they can dominate on BOTH ends of the court. Perimeter players cannot.

btw, I said elite OFFENSIVE ability, which includes passing. This is why Magic's better than the players you're listing.

[guy]

Crazy to say, but it seems like nowadays scoring is actually underrated.

[97 bulls]

Durant is asked to play defense and has played the PF position multiple times. He got put on Kobe. He rebounds and has gotten others involve all this playoffs.
Just like pippen is considered a very good scorer. Both are great players. But one has accomplished more

[tpols]

Big men are an exception to the "offensive rule", since they can dominate on BOTH ends of the court. Perimeter players cannot.

Scottie did.


btw, I said elite OFFENSIVE ability, which includes passing. This is why Magic's better than the players you're listing.
And Scottie was a better playmaker/passer than Duncan.

[LockoutOver11]

eres un idiota

[1987_Lakers]

eres un idiota

tu madre

[LockoutOver11]

tu madre

suck it

[Sarcastic]

At his peak when was Pippen considered to be better than Hakeem, Shaq, & Robinson?

You can add Ewing, Malone, and Barkley to that as well.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's funny is that this Pippen groupie Roundball Rock thinks that Pippen's impact > Durant's, and tries to assert that it's just about scoring. No, it's about the fact that his offensive impact outweights Pippen's overall impact.

Durant right now is averaging 27.8 ppg/4.2 apg/50.5% FG/62.6% TS/28.0 PER in the postseason. Here are Pippen's playoff numbers from '92-'97 (his prime):

19.5 pts/6.7 ast/46.8% FG/54.4% TS/20.1 PER
20.1 pts/5.6 ast/46.5% FG/50.4% TS/16.9 PER
22.8 pts/4.6 ast/43.4% FG/52.1% TS/22.8 PER
17.8 pts/5.8 ast/44.3% FG 54.9% TS/18.9 PER
16.9 pts/5.9 ast/39.0% FG/47.3% TS/19.4 PER
19.2 pts/3.8 ast/41.7% FG/52.6% TS/18.1 PER

So, during his prime, Pippen in the postseason (where it really matters) was averaging 5-11 fewer points (generally 8+ fewer points save for one year) on 4-10% lower FG%, 8-15% lower TS% (generally 8-11% lower) and 8-9 lower PER. When you scale Durant's scoring to match Pippen's vastly inferior efficiency, you'd likely end up with an 11-13 point difference. 2 points or so is covered by Pippen's extra 1.0-1.5 assists (an assist does not equal a basket), so say there's a 9-11 point gap there. And I'm sorry - Pippen's defense, while spectacular, does not save your team 9-11 points per game. Not even close to that, actually. Then throw in the fact that Durant can impose his will on the game late in games and 4th quarters in a way that Pippen was never remotely capable of, and it's pretty clear that he's more impactful than Pippen ever was. Fairly significantly so, actually.

[atljonesbro]

Lol It's unbelievable the pedestal you former bulls homers/80s 90s ball worshipers put those players on. I can PROMISE you if Pippen played in the same era as Durant this wouldn't even be close to a discussion. Poor mans LeBron vs. The best scorer in the NBA/most clutch player in the nba. Hmmmmm. 21/6/6/3 vs 28/8/3/1.5 hmmmmmm. Keep worshiping and putting these 80s and 90s on a pedestal. You can deny you're not a homer/overrating these players all you want, but you clearly are.

[TheMan]

What's funny is that this Pippen groupie Roundball Rock thinks that Pippen's impact > Durant's, and tries to assert that it's just about scoring. No, it's about the fact that his offensive impact outweights Pippen's overall impact.

Durant right now is averaging 27.8 ppg/4.2 apg/50.5% FG/62.6% TS/28.0 PER in the postseason. Here are Pippen's playoff numbers from '92-'97 (his prime):

19.5 pts/6.7 ast/46.8% FG/54.4% TS/20.1 PER
20.1 pts/5.6 ast/46.5% FG/50.4% TS/16.9 PER
22.8 pts/4.6 ast/43.4% FG/52.1% TS/22.8 PER
17.8 pts/5.8 ast/44.3% FG 54.9% TS/18.9 PER
16.9 pts/5.9 ast/39.0% FG/47.3% TS/19.4 PER
19.2 pts/3.8 ast/41.7% FG/52.6% TS/18.1 PER

So, during his prime, Pippen in the postseason (where it really matters) was averaging 5-11 fewer points (generally 8+ fewer points save for one year) on 4-10% lower FG%, 8-15% lower TS% (generally 8-11% lower) and 8-9 lower PER. When you scale Durant's scoring to match Pippen's vastly inferior efficiency, you'd likely end up with an 11-13 point difference. 2 points or so is covered by Pippen's extra 1.0-1.5 assists (an assist does not equal a basket), so say there's a 9-11 point gap there. And I'm sorry - Pippen's defense, while spectacular, does not save your team 9-11 points per game. Not even close to that, actually. Then throw in the fact that Durant can impose his will on the game late in games and 4th quarters in a way that Pippen was never remotely capable of, and it's pretty clear that he's more impactful than Pippen ever was. Fairly significantly so, actually.
Durant is OKC's #1 option, Pippen wasn't Chicago's first option.

I'll take Pippen, Durant only has scoring on Pip, Scottie owns on everything else

[juju151111]

Just like pippen is considered a very good scorer. Both are great players. But one has accomplished more
I thought we were talking about peak? Right now Durant is playing on another amazing. Career wise its Pip

[nightprowler10]

These sort of threads are going to start making me dislike KD fans...

And that's coming from someone who was a KD fan since his sophomore year.

[CavaliersFTW]

Durant is on the fast track to becoming the most overrated player in the NBA... Way to ruin a young players legacy before he even has a chance to build it.

[TheFan]

woa... Durant averages mor blks than Pippen... Kind of shocking.