Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

[pauk]

My brain simply can NOT percieve the thought of such a viciously awesome defender (perhaps the greatest perimeter defender and most versatile defender ever) never winning Defensive Player of the Year...

Was it just because of competition maybe? Afterall Hakeem, Dikembe, Robinson, Jordan, Rodman and Payton were around....?

What are your thoughts on this?

[Punpun]

He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.

[unknowns8]

He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.


6 rings later, I'm pretty sure Scottie is fine with it :rolleyes:

[Sarcastic]

Unfortunately for Pippen he played in one of the strongest eras for dominant centers.

And no, Jordan didn't steal a DPOY from Pippen. Jordan won his in 1988, when Pippen was a rookie.

[Punpun]

That's how good pippen was and how hard he got robbed.

[Psileas]

Unfortunately for Pippen he played in one of the strongest eras for dominant centers.

And no, Jordan didn't steal a DPOY from Pippen. Jordan won his in 1988, when Pippen was a rookie.

Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.

I could argue that Pippen stole a second DPOY from Jordan.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan didn't technically steal a DPOY from Pippen, but being a comparable defender as a teammate while also playing in the perimeter reduced Pippen's chances to showcase his defensive dominance better (you know, the pretty flawed argument of "he's not even the best ... in his own team"). Between '92 and '97, this probably worked vice-versa, as well.

Always very intelligent posts. :cheers:

[Punpun]

I could argue that Pippen stole a second DPOY from Jordan.

Argue all you want. Won't make you right.

[Harison]

Considering competition, even Jordan shouldnt have won. It was even harder for Pippen, not only to outshine more impactfull defenders, but also MJ.

In this era he could have won, but then again Duncan has zero DPOY, Garnett only one, etc.

[PTB Fan]

Yes, he was. It's a crime how he didn't win a DPOY.

Same with Duncan..

[gengiskhan]

My brain simply can NOT percieve the thought of such a viciously awesome defender (perhaps the greatest perimeter defender and most versatile defender ever) never winning Defensive Player of the Year...

Was it just because of competition maybe? Afterall Hakeem, Dikembe, Robinson, Jordan, Rodman and Payton were around....?

What are your thoughts on this?

Pippen became only 2nd "perimeter" player to record 100 blks/200 stls in single season after Jordan.

MJ did it TWICE in back-2-back seasons he went for 100/250+ stls to secure DPOY.

PIPPEN in '90s never did that again to secure DPOY title.

this goes to show how tough it was to WIN DPOY title by perimeter player.

If you go by the logic, the standard set by MJ as DPOY win was very high. Pippen could not match it. Even his 100/200 blk/stls season, he BARELY made it.

Not good enough to secure DPOY title.

[Owl]

I'd say no, especially not unless someone presents a specific year where there's a compelling case for "Pippen > everyone else".

It's partially a function of era and partially to do with the relative value of perimeter defenders versus big man (plus a little of the aforementioned MJ and Pip negating one another in voters minds).
It doesn't mean Pip wasn't one of the greatest wing defenders ever.

[guy]

I look at DPOY like COY in that its not really a such a career-defining award. If I'm comparing Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Joe Dumars as defenders, the fact that Pippen and Dumars don't have any DPOYs while Jordan and Payton each have one does not cross my mind. I don't really think COY or DPOY are awards that people really care about that much or that voters put that much thought to like they do the MVP.

I thought it was funny that people were raving about Larry Bird having the greatest overall basketball career in history cause he's won COY and EOY. Did anyone really think he's ever been that special in either? Do people realize Jerry Sloan and Rick Adelman have never won COY and that Sam Presti and RC Buford have never won EOY?

At least with MVPs, the greatest of the greats that are consistently great every year for a long time at least win 1 MVP so it seems alot more meaningful. Awards like DPOY, COY, and EOY don't really go like that.

[DuMa]

i think it was a crime but he wasnt deserving over mutumbo/hakeem/david/rodman or any of those elite defensive centers. the DPOY is and will always be a center/PF driven award

[Clippersfan86]

Tough to say. As others pointed out though he played in THE dominant center era. I mean he played when guys like prime Mutumbo, Mourning, Hakeem, D Rob, Shaq were in the game. That being said Pippen is the best perimeter of all time right behind Gary Payton.

[Ne 1]

He should have been the DPOY in 1995. They just gave it to Mutombo because he led the league in bpg.

[AngelEyes]

Tough to say. As others pointed out though he played in THE dominant center era. I mean he played when guys like prime Mutumbo, Mourning, Hakeem, D Rob, Shaq were in the game. That being said Pippen is the best perimeter of all time right behind Gary Payton.

Pippen and Jordan were both greater defensively than Gary Payton.

[hitmanyr2k]

I thought Pippen had a legit case in 1994 and especially in 1995 where I think he should have won it. Even though he was a SF he anchored his teams defensively with the impact of a center and he had to because his frontcourt was god-awful in '95. He was also #1 or #2 in steals. When it came to the overall package of one on one defense, help defense, steals, blocking shots, and taking charges he was second to none.

I think Payton winning DPOY in '96 was an even greater insult since he had nowhere near the impact of Pippen on that side of the floor.

[97 bulls]

I'd say no, especially not unless someone presents a specific year where there's a compelling case for "Pippen > everyone else".

It's partially a function of era and partially to do with the relative value of perimeter defenders versus big man (plus a little of the aforementioned MJ and Pip negating one another in voters minds).
It doesn't mean Pip wasn't one of the greatest wing defenders ever.
Ill give a specific year. 1995. He was the best defender in the league. And shouldve won it over mutombo.

He led the league in steals, the bulls were second in team defense. Mutombos nuggets were like 14th. He had the highest defensive rating. Made allnba first team defense and waas the leading vote getter. And the bulls had a better record than the nuggets.

The only thing mutombo had over pippen is blocks. And pippen avg 1a game too.

[Clippersfan86]

Pippen and Jordan were both greater defensively than Gary Payton.

I disagree. Payton is the best perimeter defender in NBA history in my opinion. Though Pippen and Jordan absolutely are NOT far behind.

[AngelEyes]

I disagree. Payton is the best perimeter defender in NBA history in my opinion. Though Pippen and Jordan absolutely are NOT far behind.

Pippen and Jordan had much more versatility than Gary Payton defensively and could also wreak more havoc. Payton was damn good but there's no way he's as good as those two. Payton also didn't have the physical talent that Pippen and Jordan had, which they utilized so brilliantly on the defensive end.

[Clippersfan86]

Pippen and Jordan had much more versatility than Gary Payton defensively and could also wreak more havoc. Payton was damn good but there's no way he's as good as those two. Payton also didn't have the physical talent that Pippen and Jordan had, which they utilized so brilliantly on the defensive end.

Payton made up for it with more tenacity and quicker hands than Pippen/Jordan on D. As I said they are all debatable but I have Payton at the top.

[B]9

[AngelEyes]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Payton made up for it with more tenacity and quicker hands than Pippen/Jordan on D. As I said they are all debatable but I have Payton at the top.

[B]9

[Clippersfan86]

He definitely didn't have quicker hands than Michael Jordan, and him being voted defensive player of the year hardly makes him superior to Pippen. I can't control how the writers voted 16 years ago and whichever way they voted means very little for me. Jordan's hands were every bit as quick as Payton's and his physical ability allowed him to do far more on the defensive end. Pippen's versatility on defense is only rivaled and perhaps surpassed by Rodman's peak years and Lebron James.

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

[AngelEyes]

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

Eh, you're overvaluing the impact of Payton's first place finish. Payton won the award because he had a great reputation for defense and the Sonics were the best team in their conference. His dominance on defense is not the same as Jordan or Pippen. When I'm talking about these two, I'm valuing both versatility and impact, which is greater than Gary Payton. Either Pippen or Jordan could switch on to a 1,2 3 (in pippen's case a 4 as well) and take them out of the game.' Payton could disrupt a player's rhythm on defense but I don't see the same kind of dominance on defense and I don't think he should have won the award.

[AngelEyes]

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

The idea of the media never picking point guards is misguided, the media primarily picks big men and does not pick guards. Guys like Alvin Robertson, Jordan and Sidney Moncrief winning it made it easier for someone like Gary Payton winning it. It doesn't mean his dominance just couldn't be overlooked, he had a good year like he usually did, it doesn't mean he should've won it because he probably shouldn't have. Pippen was the better defender on the better team and his impact was greater.

[Clippersfan86]

Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson

[AngelEyes]

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

The thing is... he wasn't. Pippen and Jordan would routinely lock down on a guy and take them out of the game, while still playing the passing lanes and leading to fastbreak points. Payton was a very good defender and one of the best defensive point guards but in no way does his defensive impact rival Pippen or Jordan.

[AngelEyes]

Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson

Payton should be on the bottom of that list and no way, as good as he was, should Sidney Moncrief be higher than Jordan. Jordan could take over a game on defense in a way Sidney Moncrief just couldn't. Moncrief was a nuisance on defense but Jordan could eliminate your best scorer and create havoc throughout the game.

[Clippersfan86]

Payton should be on the bottom of that list and no way, as good as he was, should Sidney Moncrief be higher than Jordan. Jordan could take over a game on defense in a way Sidney Moncrief just couldn't. Moncrief was a nuisance on defense but Jordan could eliminate your best scorer and create havoc throughout the game.

I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.

[hitmanyr2k]

You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.

I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.

[AngelEyes]

Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson

Dennis Rodman was every bit the perimeter defender that Gary Payton was, this from a guy who could efficiently guard power fowards. His teammate, Joe Dumars, would also belong on a list like this. Pippen and Jordan remain the best and most impactful, as pure perimeter defenders I don't think anyone is in their class.

[NugzHeat3]

Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award. He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?

[AngelEyes]

I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.

They're not. Moncrief could stick to a guy like Payton, but he couldn't disrupt and entire offense and takeover a game like Jordan could on the defensive end.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

[Clippersfan86]

Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award. He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?

Players have said a lot of things that aren't accurate. Not saying you're wrong at all because you know quite a bit but I can't say how many times I've seen players say something like this and it's not accurate. Players all the time say crap like "I'm in the best shape of my life" when they clearly aren't etc.

[AngelEyes]

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

I don't see any logical case for him when the two guys I place above him at all of his instincts and a hell of a lot more physical ability which they utilized very well on defense. With the way the game was called back then Pippen absolutely utilized it to his fullest. He was the most suffocating, versatile, impactful, etc. defender int he game. This was back when you could actually touch a player and handcheck him throughout a game and no one did this as well as Pippen, and Jordan was right there with Pippen. They were both heavier, taller, more more athletically gifted and had all the instincts of a Gary Payton or Joe Dumars.

[NugzHeat3]

Why would he say something that's working against his case to win and just showing the absurd criteria the writers use?

The most logical thing in that situation would be to say that was his best defensive season.

Here is the quote:


Payton said, overall, he had a better defensive season last season. This season, he conceded, the difference was leading the league in steals.

"I didn't come into the season looking to lead the league in steals," Payton said. "But I got off to a good start, and got the lead early. About two months into the year, I decided it was going to happen. I led the league in steals because I went for more steals."

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960507&slug=2327993

[AngelEyes]

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

Payton was better at nothing on defense than Pippen and Jordan, was much smaller than either one, had a lot less physical ability, had less versatility and I'm expected to believe Payton was greater? It doesn't make any sense and is supported by nothing. The defense of Pippen and Jordan, along with Jordan's offensive dominance were the key components to the Bulls championship run. Whenever their shots weren't falling they could always rely on their defense because it would always be there.

[AngelEyes]

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

You're basing this off of old footage of Payton and Pippen when Pippen was doing they same things except on a greater variety of players with greater team results. He's probably the best defender at the point guard position I've ever seen (back when point guards were allowed to defend) but I don't see him having a logical case over Pippen/Jordan.

[Round Mound]

He was Robbed when they Gave it To Mutombo...I Think It was 1995-96 When He hasd the Highest Defensive Rating as a SF and The Rest where PFs and Cs with Hight Defensive Ratings.

Yes he Was Robbed that Year

[D.J.]

He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.

[Sarcastic]

He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.

Over Olajuwon? :facepalm

[D.J.]

Over Olajuwon? :facepalm



Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.

[Owl]

Ill give a specific year. 1995. He was the best defender in the league. And shouldve won it over mutombo.

He led the league in steals, the bulls were second in team defense. Mutombos nuggets were like 14th. He had the highest defensive rating. Made allnba first team defense and waas the leading vote getter. And the bulls had a better record than the nuggets.

The only thing mutombo had over pippen is blocks. And pippen avg 1a game too.
Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).

[Smoke117]

Clippersfan86 you don't know shit. Gary Payton the best perimeter defender of all time? He never had close to the impact that Pippen or Jordan had. Gary didn't even deserve that DPOY in 96 either, David Robinson did. In 1995 was the only legit season where an actual perimeter player (Scottie Pippen) actually deserved to be named DPOY and instead they gave it to Mutombo because he led the league in bpg.

[Owl]

Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.
Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.

[D.J.]

Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.


And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.

[Owl]

And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.
Points differential (and especially SRS) are more accurate indicators of a teams quality than wins (because they give more information than a binary won-loss). One proof of this is that they are better predictive of title winners.

If you don't think the list I gave was of some of the worst MVP awards given and if you think team record vs expectations is a good way to judge individual players then you should feel free to believe Pip deserved an MVP. Otherwise he just plain didn't, which doesn't mean he wasn't very good indeed.

[Smoke117]

Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).

Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.

[bwink23]

He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.


You talking about the one in 1988 when Pippen was picking splinters out of his ass on the bench??

:coleman:

[Whoah10115]

The thing is that Payton is probably the best pure man defender in NBA history. My opinion, at least on the perimeter.



Pippen and Jordan did more things on defense, and I think they were the two better defenders. But Gary Payton's defense puts Bruce Bowen, even with flying kicks, to shame.

[guy]

Jordan and Pippen were pretty easily better defenders then Payton IMO. I feel like people that say otherwise must've not watched them play enough or they are doing what alot of people do here and pick the player that isn't nearly as talked about as much just cause they think its way too much to give even more credit to someone thats already praised so much like Jordan and Pippen.

[magnax1]

No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)

[Owl]

Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.
My point was (well read the post again, but to reiterate)
Defensive Rating is flawed as an individual measure. Especially for comparing players on different teams.
Your reference to Mutombo's team DRating was irrelevent, they were in the same ballpark for influence on their team, even if you do accept DRating on an individual level as being a very accurate tool.
Mutombo had statistical (blocks+steals total, defensive rebounds) and entangiable (intimidation) advantages.
Nonetheless I can see someone preferring Pip to Mutombo.

But I absolutely can't see Pip over (league leader in defensive win shares, incidentally) David Robinson.

Thats it repeated again. But this was all in the original message. What don't you get?

[Godzuki]

Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....

[97 bulls]

Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).
Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?

[97 bulls]

No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)
He wasnt robbed in 95? And your post doesnt really make sense. We all know jordan was the best player from 87-98. He didnt deserve the mvp every one ofof those years

[Whoah10115]

Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....



:oldlol:

[bwink23]

The question should ask, "Did Pippen deserve a DPOY"....maybe. Was he "robbed". NO...There were other guys deserving as well.

[Owl]

Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?
I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).

[Bigsmoke]

better defender than Hakeem and Mutombo? nah

[97 bulls]

I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).
This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.

[Owl]

This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.
No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.

[97 bulls]

No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.
Funneling doesnt imply that the perimeter defender ALLOW the ball handler to go past him deliberately. The idea is that its virtually impossible to stay in front of a ball handler so if he does drive, be sure he goes the way the defense wants him to go. And i never saiid coaching doesnt matter. But i fail to see why a coaching change would be brought into this argument when they most likely wouldnt change the defensive strategy. Besides, there wasntt a coaching change for the spurs in 95. So thats a moot point.

I dont see how youu could say pippens contributions didnt net the desired result. They were second in team defense. Obviously the whole team played a role in that accomplishment, but the fact is none of those player outside of pippen were considered even good defenders. Or at least of the players that saw considerable time. Harper barely played cuz he just couldnt pick up the offense that first season. Longley only played half the season and he didnt play very many minutes either due to injuries. So outside of pippen, his next two best defenders were myers and perdue. Both of them were serviceable man defenders, but more known as hustlers and scrappers. Armstrong was never considered much of a defender, as for the rest? You wanna talk about musical chairs? The bulls had five different players start at power forward in kukoc, krystowiak, a rookie in dimpkins, another rookie in blount, and perdue. And four different centers in perdue, wennington, foster, and longley. Out of that group, only Longley, Perdue, and Wennington could be considered decent defnders. But none of them should be considered defensive anchors. Seeing as how you put so much stock and credit defense to bigs, id think youd see how dominant pippen was defensively in 95.

[Lebron23]

Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.

[Roundball_Rock]

He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.

[97 bulls]

Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.

Pippen definitely should've win the DPOY Award in 1995.

[3ball]

Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender

[97 bulls]

He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.

I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.

[3ball]

.

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents

[Roundball_Rock]

I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.

Good points. I think there was a big bias towards centers and blocks back then. Jordan and Payton bucked the trends but Jordan was the NBA golden child and Payton won in a year where Bulls' won MVP, COY, and 6th man so Pippen getting DPOY would have been a clean sweep.

Pippen also was hurt in 94' in both DPOY and MVP by missing 10 games early in the year due to injury. Can you imagine his MVP case if the Bulls won the #1 seed without MJ?

[97 bulls]

Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender

91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.

[97 bulls]

.

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents

What about 94 and 95?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1995 Pippen was robbed for sure. That was the greatest defensive season ever for a wing player. Anchored Bulls to the #2 ranked defense despite having three worse than average defenders leading the team in minutes (Kukoc, BJ, Steve Kerr) and an out of shape Michael Jordan playing just 18 games.

[Smoke117]

I'm one of those guys that thinks it's a joke when perimeter players get DPOY as they never actually deserve them. Like Gary Payton? If we're talking about impact he wasn't even close to top 10. The DPOY of the year in 96 should have been David Robinson. Pippen was 2 in voting, but he shouldn't have won either. David Robinson basically had the Spurs at 3 on defense all by himself. You know how that's true? When he played 8 games in 97 they dropped to DEAD LAST. Having said that, Scottie Pippen actually DID deserve the DPOY in 95. He carried the bulls defense like no perimeter player ever had. Jordan and Grant were the other 2 best defensive players on Bulls during the first threepeat and he had neither and he had them at 2nd in defense while putting up 3spg and a block. He also led the league in drating. Of course, they gave it to Mutombo who averaged a lot of blocks despite the Nuggets being 13th in defense. It was a complete joke. It becomes an even bigger joke when weaker defenders like Payton and Artest were given the DPOY.

[Roundball_Rock]

1995 Pippen was robbed for sure. That was the greatest defensive season ever for a wing player. Anchored Bulls to the #2 ranked defense despite having three worse than average defenders leading the team in minutes (Kukoc, BJ, Steve Kerr) and an out of shape Michael Jordan playing just 18 games.

Agreed.


91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.

:applause:

Just because this isn't replayed 24/7 doesn't mean it wasn't important.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif

[HBK_Kliq_2]

91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.

That guy has Jordan goggles and only sees through them I guess, what ignorant questions he asked. Mark Jackson was scared shitless of Scottie Pippen by game 7 ECF.

[97 bulls]

Agreed.



:applause:

Just because this isn't replayed 24/7 doesn't mean it wasn't important.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif

One more notable defensive playoff for Pip. Scottie Pippen is 1 of only 2 players in history (Olajuwan being the other) to record 5 or more blocks and 5 steals in 1 playoff game when he had 6 steals and 5 blocks vs the Bad Boy Pistons in the 91 ECF game 1

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender

I don't know why you have this agenda against Pippen? It just makes you Jordan fans look insecure and it also makes it look like you just looked at raw boxscore stats without watching the actual games. Even Jordan said it himself "you can't say my name without saying Scottie Pippen".

Also, there's something called "synergy" that is very important in basketball and that's what Jordan\Pippen had at GOAT level, which is far more important than this "carrying to titles" agenda you have.

[97 bulls]

Now that I think about it, theres not very many players that have had more notable defensive plays and games as Pippen. Definitely not wing players. Hes just overshadowed by Jordan.

[Smoke117]

I don't know why you have this agenda against Pippen? It just makes you Jordan fans look insecure and it also makes it look like you just looked at raw boxscore stats without watching the actual games. Even Jordan said it himself "you can't say my name without saying Scottie Pippen".

Also, there's something called "synergy" that is very important in basketball and that's what Jordan\Pippen had at GOAT level, which is far more important than this "carrying to titles" agenda you have.

lol Clearly you are not familiar with our dear friend 3ball. He is mentally deranged.

[97 bulls]

I don't know why you have this agenda against Pippen? It just makes you Jordan fans look insecure and it also makes it look like you just looked at raw boxscore stats without watching the actual games. Even Jordan said it himself "you can't say my name without saying Scottie Pippen".

Also, there's something called "synergy" that is very important in basketball and that's what Jordan\Pippen had at GOAT level, which is far more important than this "carrying to titles" agenda you have.

Great points :applause:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

One more notable defensive playoff for Pip. Scottie Pippen is 1 of only 2 players in history (Olajuwan being the other) to record 5 or more blocks and 5 steals in 1 playoff game when he had 6 steals and 5 blocks vs the Bad Boy Pistons in the 91 ECF game 1

He also averaged nearly 2 blocks per game in the 1997 finals, how many wing players have done that for a final series.

[Jasper]

My brain simply can NOT percieve the thought of such a viciously awesome defender (perhaps the greatest perimeter defender and most versatile defender ever) never winning Defensive Player of the Year...

Was it just because of competition maybe? Afterall Hakeem, Dikembe, Robinson, Jordan, Rodman and Payton were around....?

What are your thoughts on this?
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29150878/he-was-beloved-everybody-how-scottie-pippen-lifted-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls
10 time all defensive team (current NBA , anyone near that ? )

[Round Mound]

I'm one of those guys that thinks it's a joke when perimeter players get DPOY as they never actually deserve them. Like Gary Payton? If we're talking about impact he wasn't even close to top 10. The DPOY of the year in 96 should have been David Robinson. Pippen was 2 in voting, but he shouldn't have won either. David Robinson basically had the Spurs at 3 on defense all by himself. You know how that's true? When he played 8 games in 97 they dropped to DEAD LAST. Having said that, Scottie Pippen actually DID deserve the DPOY in 95. He carried the bulls defense like no perimeter player ever had. Jordan and Grant were the other 2 best defensive players on Bulls during the first threepeat and he had neither and he had them at 2nd in defense while putting up 3spg and a block. He also led the league in drating. Of course, they gave it to Mutombo who averaged a lot of blocks despite the Nuggets being 13th in defense. It was a complete joke. It becomes an even bigger joke when weaker defenders like Payton and Artest were given the DPOY.

This :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't know why you have this agenda against Pippen? It just makes you Jordan fans look insecure and it also makes it look like you just looked at raw boxscore stats without watching the actual games. Even Jordan said it himself "you can't say my name without saying Scottie Pippen".

Also, there's something called "synergy" that is very important in basketball and that's what Jordan\Pippen had at GOAT level, which is far more important than this "carrying to titles" agenda you have.

MJ stans are insecure about MJ. They think if people recognize MJ had a great team with a great second superstar and other greats like Rodman that somehow diminishes or even negates MJ's greatness. It is lunacy but here we are and it only gets worse as the years go by.

[LeCroix]

Playoff Defensive Rating

Pip = 102
LBJ = 102

MJ = 104 :(

[aceman]

Awards don't mean much - Ron Harper was doing hard work for 2nd three peat & Jordan kept making all defense teams.

[Reggie43]

Guys acting like Mutombo didnt deserve his awards when he was averaging 12 pts 12 rebs 4 blocks with arguably the Goat interior defense. He was almost single handedly shutting teams down with his play. It was the goat era for defenders so nobody is getting "robbed" if one player gets it over the other because they were all great.

[nayte]

I'm sure I read somewhere the bulls players got off Phil's angries on defence if they said pip told them to .speaks volumes on his defensive accumen.
Better add that is a good thing

[Smoke117]

Guys acting like Mutombo didnt deserve his awards when he was averaging 12 pts 12 rebs 4 blocks with arguably the Goat interior defense. He was almost single handedly shutting teams down with his play. It was the goat era for defenders so nobody is getting "robbed" if one player gets it over the other because they were all great.

There's nothing arguable about it. Both David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon were better defensive players than him. On that note, Mutombo didn't even defend Robinson and Hakeem one on one. The PF always did because his feet were too damn slow to play any kind of decent defense on them. Anyway, you say he was almost single handedley shutting teams down with his play...they were 14th in defense in 1995. That's beside the point that Pippen was completely carrying the Bulls to 2nd in the league in defense...AS A PERIMETER DEFENSIVE PLAYER. Go look at that line up if you want to talk about carrying a defense. If there was a time for a perimeter player to win DPOY it was 1995. Scottie Pippen was robbed plain and simple.

[BigShotBob]

Wasn't that the year Mutumbo had arguably the greatest defensive sequence of all time when he logged like 4 blocks in one play?

[Reggie43]

There's nothing arguable about it. Both David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon were better defensive players than him. On that note, Mutombo didn't even defend Robinson and Hakeem one on one. The PF always did because his feet were too damn slow to play any kind of decent defense on them. Anyway, you say he was almost single handedley shutting teams down with his play...they were 14th in defense in 1995. That's beside the point that Pippen was completely carrying the Bulls to 2nd in the league in defense...AS A PERIMETER DEFENSIVE PLAYER. Go look at that line up if you want to talk about carrying a defense. If there was a time for a perimeter player to win DPOY it was 1995. Scottie Pippen was robbed plain and simple.

Mutombo not defending Robinson and Olajuwon one on one is such a lie, its all available online with a quick youtube search. It easy to make a case for Pippen but lying about Mutombo's defense as if he was a bradley or Eaton type of defender is pretty pathetic

[Smoke117]

Mutombo not defending Robinson and Olajuwon one on one is such a lie, its all available online with a quick youtube search. It easy to make a case for Pippen but lying about Mutombo's defense as if he was a bradley or Eaton type of defender is pretty pathetic

Except there is barely anything because he barely ever actually defended them as they were just too quick for him. He was a Mark Eaton type. That he has four DPOY and Robinson only has one is laughable.

[Reggie43]

Except there is barely anything because he barely ever actually defended them.


https://youtu.be/ZFEvxc6W9To
https://youtu.be/mUtJmDgIFI8

[Smoke117]

You just proved my point for me. Go find more. Exactly. I’m telling you...he regularly played off them instead of defending them straight up.

[Reggie43]

You just proved my point for me. Go find more. Exactly. I’m telling you...he regularly played off them instead of defending them straight up.

Prove your point about what? That games like these are obviously rare? (actually found two more for both players) Both games Mutombo defends them straight up with limited help easily exposing you as a shitty liar.

[nayte]

Reggie 1 smoke 0.lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Team A: 2nd in defense, defensive rating of 104.3
Team B: 14th of 27 teams in defense, defensive rating of 108.2

Team B has the DPOY? :biggums:

[Whoah10115]

Should have been Pippen.

But let's not pretend Mutombo wasn't a great defensive player. He was outstanding.

[baudkarma]

Playing with MJ probably cost Scottie one or two DPOY awards. Of course, it also won him a few rings, so you might consider that a fair trade.

The NBA in the 90's was enjoying new heights of popularity and profitability. Jordan was their cash cow, and the league was milking him as much as they could. Jordans face was in every NBA promotion, and we were told that he was the greatest of all time, the consummate competitor, and every time the Bulls were playing it was must-see-TV, or you risked missing history being made. With that mindset, they couldn't really let Scottie win DPOY, could they? One of Jordans teammates winning an award would take a little shine off of MJ himself, and the league wasn't going to allow that.

[Whoah10115]

Playing with MJ probably cost Scottie one or two DPOY awards. Of course, it also won him a few rings, so you might consider that a fair trade.

The NBA in the 90's was enjoying new heights of popularity and profitability. Jordan was their cash cow, and the league was milking him as much as they could. Jordans face was in every NBA promotion, and we were told that he was the greatest of all time, the consummate competitor, and every time the Bulls were playing it was must-see-TV, or you risked missing history being made. With that mindset, they couldn't really let Scottie win DPOY, could they? One of Jordans teammates winning an award would take a little shine off of MJ himself, and the league wasn't going to allow that.

This is a genuinely stupid conspiracy theory.

Maybe the media didn't want to give it up to Scottie. Then again they did vote him in the top 3 the year before, ahead of Patrick and Shaq and Malone (I'd have had him in top 2).

Dikembe blocks shots. Led the league the season before with crazy number and didn't even make the 2nd team (not that that's wrong).

Scottie doesn't do that and they weren't that good as a team that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dikembe blocks shots. Led the league the season before with crazy number and didn't even make the 2nd team (not that that's wrong).

Scottie doesn't do that and they weren't that good as a team that year.

They were a better team than the Nuggets and were much better defensively.

Mutumbo was a one way player which is what capped him in all-NBA, especially since Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning all played C during his prime.

[RogueBorg]

He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA, Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.

Jordan wasn't playing in 1994 and not long enough in 1995.

Now what?

[Whoah10115]

They were a better team than the Nuggets and were much better defensively.

Mutumbo was a one way player which is what capped him in all-NBA, especially since Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning all played C during his prime.

Again, Scottie doesn't stand under the rim for legendary blocks. Dikembe blocks shots, and despite having like 4.5 a game or something the year before, didn't even make the 2nd All-Defensive Team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Again, Scottie doesn't stand under the rim for legendary blocks. Dikembe blocks shots, and despite having like 4.5 a game or something the year before, didn't even make the 2nd All-Defensive Team.

Mutumbo wasn't doing this while he stood under the rim:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

[RRR3]

Mutumbo wasn't doing this while he stood under the rim:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif
That’s one of the most absurd basketball highlights I’ve ever seen :lol

Unreal defense

[Whoah10115]

Mutumbo wasn't doing this while he stood under the rim:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

At this point you're just not interested in talking. I said he should have won, but that the reason he was given the shaft had nothing to do with the league protecting the Jordan brand, because that's an actual stupid thing to think.

Ibaka was 1st Team All-Defense three consecutive seasons because they called him Iblocka. Shouldn't have been on a non-existent 3rd team, at least two of those times. Iguodala shits on him. But he got it, because he blocks shots.

[Roundball_Rock]

That’s one of the most absurd basketball highlights I’ve ever seen :lol

Unreal defense

Yup, but unfortunately there is no stat to capture that so according to some it doesn't help the team win .:lol


I said he should have won, but that the reason he was given the shaft had nothing to do with the league protecting the Jordan brand

Agreed.

[RogueBorg]

I keep trying to tell you guys, Pippen was not as highly regarded back then (1994/1995) as he is today which perfectly explains his lack of votes.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is a quick sample of what people said in the 90's about Pippen's defense:

1994 poll of NBA coaches: Best one-on-one defender: Bull forward Scottie Pippen (six votes) edged Spur forward Dennis Rodman (four). Olajuwon, Blaylock and Sonic guard Gary Payton (two votes each) were the only other players chosen by more than one coach. "Rodman used to be the guy. but he's slipped—he doesn't like to go too far from the basket anymore," says a Western coach, I think Pippen can disrupt more than Rodman.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...4903/index.htm

Phil Jackson''A lot of people watch who score and that's wonderful,'' said Bulls Coach Phil Jackson. ''But Scottie Pippen's defense is a one-man wrecking crew. He plays 48 feet at every position, both sides of court.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/14/sports/let-us-now-praise-pippen.html?scp=3&sq=Scottie%20Pippen&st=cse

[97 bulls]

I keep trying to tell you guys, Pippen was not as highly regarded back then (1994/1995) as he is today which perfectly explains his lack of votes.

He still was robbed. That's the point.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jerry Sloan/New York Times: Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sp...art.html?sec=&

Sports Illustrated/and MJ: CHICAGO (AP) -- Say this for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen's supporting cast, they're not stupid.

Ask any one of the Chicago Bulls whether Jordan or Pippen deserves the MVP award for the NBA Finals, and they come back with the most decisive of non-decisive answers.

"Both," Steve Kerr said, smiling. "Co-MVPs."

Jordan has won the MVP in each of Chicago's five championship seasons. But even His Airness admits the Bulls might not be up 3-1 over the Utah Jazz -- let alone even in the finals -- if not for Pippen's smothering defense.

Pippen is a mainstay with Jordan on the NBA's All-Defensive team. But he's cranked his defense up a notch in the playoffs, disrupting Indiana's offense and squeezing off Utah's famed pick-and-roll.

"Scottie Pippen is the reason, a major reason, why we're here," Jordan said Thursday. "He's a unique and creative type of player offensively and defensively. And the harmony between the two of us is incomparable. You can't compare it to anything. That's taken time to deliver and trust each other to where we compliment each other."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...jordan_pippen/

Karl Malone: ''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

Michael Jordan: "There is one guy in the league who can guard me. Fortunately he is on my team.

[3ball]

He still was robbed. That's the point.

No one thought he was robbed of anything

Only you 30 years later looking up his drtg on bballref

It's hard to overstate how dumb that is on various levels

Anyway, enough with you goat haters... I'm about to play ball myself.. I'll be playing before lebron

[97 bulls]

Jerry Sloan/New York Times: Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sp...art.html?sec=&

Sports Illustrated/and MJ: CHICAGO (AP) -- Say this for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen's supporting cast, they're not stupid.

Ask any one of the Chicago Bulls whether Jordan or Pippen deserves the MVP award for the NBA Finals, and they come back with the most decisive of non-decisive answers.

"Both," Steve Kerr said, smiling. "Co-MVPs."

Jordan has won the MVP in each of Chicago's five championship seasons. But even His Airness admits the Bulls might not be up 3-1 over the Utah Jazz -- let alone even in the finals -- if not for Pippen's smothering defense.

Pippen is a mainstay with Jordan on the NBA's All-Defensive team. But he's cranked his defense up a notch in the playoffs, disrupting Indiana's offense and squeezing off Utah's famed pick-and-roll.

"Scottie Pippen is the reason, a major reason, why we're here," Jordan said Thursday. "He's a unique and creative type of player offensively and defensively. And the harmony between the two of us is incomparable. You can't compare it to anything. That's taken time to deliver and trust each other to where we compliment each other."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...jordan_pippen/

Karl Malone: ''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

Michael Jordan: "There is one guy in the league who can guard me. Fortunately he is on my team.

Great job Rock.

I think the job Pippen did vs Utah in that game was just as impactful as a guy dropping 50+ pts. I think he accounted for 16 of the Jazz 26 TOs. He was everywhere that night.

[97 bulls]

No one thought he was robbed of anything

Only you 30 years later looking up his drtg on bballref

It's hard to overstate how dumb that is on various levels

Anyway, enough with you goat haters... I'm about to play ball myself.. I'll be playing before lebron

Lol yeah right. On a video game.

[RogueBorg]

He still was robbed. That's the point.

I agree

[Whoah10115]

No one thought he was robbed of anything

Only you 30 years later looking up his drtg on bballref

It's hard to overstate how dumb that is on various levels

Anyway, enough with you goat haters... I'm about to play ball myself.. I'll be playing before lebron

But said GOAT says the same thing about Pippen.

See...this is why you suck. Now ignore refuting me, as you are keen to do.

[RogueBorg]

Jerry Sloan/New York Times: Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sp...art.html?sec=&

Sports Illustrated/and MJ: CHICAGO (AP) -- Say this for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen's supporting cast, they're not stupid.

Ask any one of the Chicago Bulls whether Jordan or Pippen deserves the MVP award for the NBA Finals, and they come back with the most decisive of non-decisive answers.

"Both," Steve Kerr said, smiling. "Co-MVPs."

Jordan has won the MVP in each of Chicago's five championship seasons. But even His Airness admits the Bulls might not be up 3-1 over the Utah Jazz -- let alone even in the finals -- if not for Pippen's smothering defense.

Pippen is a mainstay with Jordan on the NBA's All-Defensive team. But he's cranked his defense up a notch in the playoffs, disrupting Indiana's offense and squeezing off Utah's famed pick-and-roll.

"Scottie Pippen is the reason, a major reason, why we're here," Jordan said Thursday. "He's a unique and creative type of player offensively and defensively. And the harmony between the two of us is incomparable. You can't compare it to anything. That's taken time to deliver and trust each other to where we compliment each other."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...jordan_pippen/

Karl Malone: ''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

Michael Jordan: "There is one guy in the league who can guard me. Fortunately he is on my team.

All of those quotes are great........why didn't he get enough votes to win DPOY?

[jlip]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

WOW!!!
That defensive sequence is more impressive than most offensive highlights I've seen. Pippen literally just guarded 4 of the 5 players on the opposing team. That reminds me of what Magic said about Pippen during the '92 Olympics in Barcelona. He said that Pippen wanted to guard everybody on the team during practices and scrimmages.

[3ball]

But said GOAT says the same thing about Pippen.

See...this is why you suck. Now ignore refuting me, as you are keen to do.

There's no examples of Pippen shutting anyone down as the primary defender

Otoh, virtually EVERYONE had a field day on him... Mashburn dropped 50 on him... Dominique and Bird owned his soul and outplayed him (Nique and Willis outplayed him in 93' Playoffs)...

Worthy did whatever he wanted to Pippen, and even a hobbled Worthy went off in the 91' Finals... Guys like Kemp, Schrempf, Penny, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson and many other 2nd options outplayed Pippen in the playoffs... X-man owned him in the 92' ECSF

[Whoah10115]

There's no examples of Pippen shutting anyone down as the primary defender

Otoh, virtually EVERYONE had a field day on him... Mashburn dropped 50 on him... Dominique and Bird owned his soul and outplayed him (Nique and Willis outplayed him in 93' Playoffs)... Worthy did whatever he wanted to Pippen, and even a hobbled Worthy went off in the 91' Finals... Guys like Kemp, Schrempf, Penny, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson and many other 2nd options destroyed Pippen in the playoffs

So errbody lying about Pippen?

[3ball]

So errbody lying about Pippen?

Yes.. people have no big shots to recall for Pippen and nothing strong to identify in Pippen's offense, so they overrate his defense.. all those quotes are fluff... Sounds like politicians on prominent news channels.. nothing real or heartfelt

It's not that he wasn't a good defender, but not better than Paul George or Jimmy Butler, who would NOT be excused for Pippen's garbage offense.. only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)

So Pippen is overrated defensively because he's viewed as a BETTER defender than Paul George, yet the stats and facts say otherwise - again, he never shut anyone down, and actually has an endless list of guys that went off on him.. furthermore, the bulls only had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 opponents in ECF/Finals had a better defense.. so Pippen's team defense is overrated along with his individual defense.. otoh, Paul George has the goat team drtg in 2014 (I think)... It doesn't mean he's this goat defender or anything, but at least the stats exist for you to claim he was.

[Smoke117]

It really is hilarious how pathetic 3ball is. To be so obsessed with a player that when his teammates get any kind of praise and regard it enrages you...jesus. As I and kblaze has said before...he's mentally deranged.

[RRR3]

It really is hilarious how pathetic 3ball is. To be so obsessed with a player that when his teammates get any kind of regard it enrages you...jesus. As I and kblaze has said before...he's mentally deranged.
He also claims he's a 6'7 (or 6'8?) former D1 athlete who "scored at will" on Raja Bell, dunked "4 times in a row" on Zach Randolph, and has the "hottest girlfriend in Las Vegas". In fact, he recently told Kblaze that he was too busy to get into a gif battle with him because he has "multiple beautiful females that require his attention". Blaze pointed out he's not too busy to make 900 LeBron topics :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

He also claims he's a 6'7 (or 6'8?) former D1 athlete who "scored at will" on Raja Bell, dunked "4 times in a row" on Zach Randolph, and has the "hottest girlfriend in Las Vegas". In fact, he recently told Kblaze that he was too busy to get into a gif battle with him because he has "multiple beautiful females that require his attention". Blaze pointed out he's not too busy to make 900 LeBron topics :oldlol:


:lol

It is funny how he says Pippen never shut anyone down when the New York Times article above literally says:


He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

[3ball]

It really is hilarious how pathetic 3ball is. To be so obsessed with a player that when his teammates get any kind of regard it enrages you...jesus. As I and kblaze has said before...he's mentally deranged.

Did you read my last post?.. I said Pippen might be as good defensively as Paul George

But Pippen is overrated defensively because he's viewed as a BETTER defender than Paul George, while the stats and facts say otherwise - he never shut anyone down, and actually has an endless list of guys that went off on him.. furthermore, the bulls only had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 opponents in ECF and Finals had a better defense.. so Pippen's team defense is overrated along with his individual defense.. otoh, Paul George has the goat team drtg in 2014 (I think)... It doesn't mean he's this goat defender or anything, but at least the stats exist for you to claim he was.

Again - it's not that Pippen wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't better than Paul George or Jimmy Butler, who would NOT be excused for Pippen's garbage offense.. only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)

[Smoke117]

Did you read my last post?.. I said Pippen might be as good defensively as Paul George

But Pippen is overrated defensively because he's viewed as a BETTER defender than Paul George, while the stats and facts say otherwise - he never shut anyone down, and actually has an endless list of guys that went off on him.. furthermore, the bulls only had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 opponents in ECF and Finals had a better defense.. so Pippen's team defense is overrated along with his individual defense.. otoh, Paul George has the goat team drtg in 2014 (I think)... It doesn't mean he's this goat defender or anything, but at least the stats exist for you to claim he was.

Again - it's not that Pippen wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't better than Paul George or Jimmy Butler, who would NOT be excused for Pippen's garbage offense.. only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)

Anyone who thinks Paul George or Jimmy Butler are better defenders than Scottie Pippen isn't worth responding to. It's not like you don't have an agenda or anything...right? :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

So errbody lying about Pippen?

Yes, including Bird!


"He was one of the best. He and Michael Cooper gave me the most problems."--Larry Bird

:oldlol: at bringing Kemp up, who was guarded by Rodman. Anyway, here are some more quotes:

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."--Horace Grant

"I don't know what position Scottie was; he was just a basketball player. He could dribble, shoot, pass and rebound. Defensively, he was excellent. He had quick hands and quick feet with a great understanding of the game. He could do it all."--B.J. Armstrong

"There are certain things that Pippen does for that team that Michael doesn't do. Definitely defensively. I think offensively he's always conscious of getting the other guys involved. Not to take anything away from Michael, but I think Scottie is just more cognizant of the total package, and that makes them complement each other real well."--Julius Erving

"He's the best defender I've ever seen. I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there ever was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes."--Mike Dunleavy

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league. He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best."--Phil Jackson

Last but not least...


"He sets the tempo defensively for us. He can disrupt anybody's offense because he can play anybody from the point guard to the five position."

[3ball]

Anyone who thinks Paul George or Jimmy Butler are better defenders than Scottie Pippen isn't worth responding to. It's not like you don't have an agenda or anything...right? :rolleyes:

Again, there's no actual stats or evidence to say Pippen is a better defender than them - all the evidence points the other way

The only evidence you have is fluff quotes from people who couldn't recall big shots or anything strong in Pippen's offense, so they overrate his defense..

Again, only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)... Butler doesn't get a pass because he's actually a good offensive player

[97 bulls]

Did you read my last post?.. I said Pippen might be as good defensively as Paul George

But Pippen is overrated defensively because he's viewed as a BETTER defender than Paul George, while the stats and facts say otherwise - he never shut anyone down, and actually has an endless list of guys that went off on him.. furthermore, the bulls only had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 opponents in ECF and Finals had a better defense.. so Pippen's team defense is overrated along with his individual defense.. otoh, Paul George has the goat team drtg in 2014 (I think)... It doesn't mean he's this goat defender or anything, but at least the stats exist for you to claim he was.

Again - it's not that Pippen wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't better than Paul George or Jimmy Butler, who would NOT be excused for Pippen's garbage offense.. only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)

Give us an example of a player shutting someone down in your opinion.

[Smoke117]

Again, there's no actual stats or evidence to say Pippen is a better defender than them - all the evidence points the other way

The only evidence you have is fluff quotes from people who couldn't recall big shots or anything strong in Pippen's offense, so they overrate his defense..

Again, only Pippen gets a pass for routinely averaging 15-16 ppg on 33-40% - he has 15 different series with these averages (17 on 40% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)... Butler doesn't get a pass because he's actually a good offensive player

I've seen all three players play. (something I'm sure you can't say as you haven't watched ball in years) It's not even close. Anyone who has seen all three play knows Pippen was a much better defensive player than those two. Anyone who isn't nonstop lifting up their deity and tearing everyone of his teammates down that is.

[Roundball_Rock]

I've seen all three players play.

3ball has admitted he stopped watching in 2011 so he literally has never seen PG or Butler play. :lol


furthermore, the bulls only had the #7 team defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 opponents in ECF and Finals had a better defense.. so Pippen's team defense is overrated along with his individual defense

Damn, so 3ball is saying MJ is overrated as a defender? :lebronamazed:

Bulls' defensive ranks with MJ as the primary defender (1989-1993): 11th, 19th, 7th, 4th, 7th

Bulls' defensive ranks with Pippen as the primary defender (1994-1998): 6th, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd

[Smoke117]

3ball has admitted he stopped watching in 2011 so he literally has never seen PG or Butler play. :lol



Damn, so 3ball is saying MJ is overrated as a defender? :lebronamazed:

Bulls' defensive ranks with MJ as the primary defender (1989-1993): 11th, 19th, 7th, 4th, 7th

Bulls' defensive ranks with Pippen as the primary defender (1994-1998): 6th, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd

This clown also keeps going on about who did he shut down, who did he shut down? Who gives a shit. I don't care about that. What made Pippen such a devastating defensive force out there was his help/team defense. As that gif that was posted shows where he's basically defending four different guys on one play. You want don't want Pippen glued to a player. That's a waste of what makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player ever. You want him to be able to disrupt the offense like he did vs the Jazz in their finals series. Sloan was constantly complaining to the refs during their two match ups that he was playing illegal defense because of how much he was ****ing with what they wanted to do.

[Smoke117]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA

[Roundball_Rock]

This clown also keeps going on about who did he shut down, who did he shut down? Who gives a shit. I don't care about that. What made Pippen such a devastating defensive force out there was his help/team defense. As that gif that was posted shows where he's basically defending four different guys on one play. You want don't want Pippen glued to a player. That's a waste of what makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player ever. You want him to be able to disrupt the offense like he did vs the Jazz in their finals series. Sloan was constantly complaining to the refs during their two match ups that he was playing illegal defense because of much he was ****ing with what they wanted to do.

Exactly. Has any perimeter defender had series where they dominated defensively the way Pippen did the 98' finals or 98' ECF? He was wrecking the entire offense. Utah had the #1 offense and Indiana the #4 offense. Utah went from scoring 101 a game in the season to 80 in the finals; Indiana went from 96 in the season to 92 in the ECF.

[RRR3]

Exactly. Has any perimeter defender had series where they dominated defensively the way Pippen did the 98' finals or 98' ECF? He was wrecking the entire offense. Utah had the #1 offense and Indiana the #4 offense. Utah went from scoring 101 a game in the season to 80 in the finals; Indiana went from 96 in the season to 92 in the ECF.
Pippen shot bad though, so obviously he's the worst player of all time and 3ball could beat him one on one.

[97 bulls]

This clown also keeps going on about who did he shut down, who did he shut down? Who gives a shit. I don't care about that. What made Pippen such a devastating defensive force out there was his help/team defense. As that gif that was posted shows where he's basically defending four different guys on one play. You want don't want Pippen glued to a player. That's a waste of what makes him the greatest perimeter defensive player ever. You want him to be able to disrupt the offense like he did vs the Jazz in their finals series. Sloan was constantly complaining to the refs during their two match ups that he was playing illegal defense because of how much he was ****ing with what they wanted to do.

We've already given him examples, quotes. stats. Not sure what hed looking for.

3bsll want examples. How about game 2 of the 91 NBA Finals when Pippen held Magic Johnson to 31% shooting and 4 TOs.

Or the 96 ECF when in games 2-4, Pippen held Hardaway to 38% shooting.

[3ball]

Exactly. Has any perimeter defender had series where they dominated defensively the way Pippen did the 98' finals or 98' ECF? He was wrecking the entire offense. Utah had the #1 offense and Indiana the #4 offense. Utah went from scoring 101 a game in the season to 80 in the finals; Indiana went from 96 in the season to 92 in the ECF.

Pippen was glued to Mark Jackson and wasn't playing multiple guys more than mj or anyone else - so i've caught you guys making up narratives...

and those highlights show shading/help defense that everyone does - you don't think jordan has tons of help defense highlights and better than Pippen?.. you don't think Butler or George had highlights like that? You think we're stupid on here or something? ... Those highlights mean as much as the first brick I take when I go ball right now...

Ultimately, the Pacers had lesser offense in that series because MJ held their highest-volume player to 38% shooting and the Pacers were wearing down from guarding and doubling MJ, so they had less capacity for offense (MJ-ball wins the attrition battle)

[Roundball_Rock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA

This has to be fake. Why is Kobe saying young players should emulate Pippen's defense? Doesn't Kobe know Paul George and Jimmy Butler are better defenders? He played against all three so why is he pretending Pippen is some kind of GOAT level defender?

I think the real answer here is the media is working to push Pippen. Think about it. When is the last time you turned on the TV and didn't see Pippen hawking some merchandise? Isn't he doing My Pillow ads these days, among others? The media is working overtime to hype Pippen because the money is with Pippen. The more hyped he is, the more ads he can sell and the more revenue he brings in to channels like ESPN. Hence the conspiracy to tell everyone how good he was--when we all know he really was by the worst "star" of the 90's, as 3ball and co. have exposed. Was Pippen even better than Chris Gatling or Tyrone Hill? Would he even make an all-star team if he didn't play in Chicago?


Pippen shot bad though, so obviously he's the worst player of all time and 3ball could beat him one on one.

True. Not only that, why was Pippen even on the floor? As 3ball says, Kukoc>Pippen. Why didn't they just make Kukoc the starting SF and have Pippen come off the bench during the same stints Randy Brown played? Phil Jackson is clueless. 3ball>Phil Jackson.

[3ball]

This has to be fake. Why is Kobe saying young players should emulate Pippen's defense? Doesn't Kobe know Paul George and Jimmy Butler are better defenders? He played against all three so why is he pretending Pippen is some kind of GOAT level defender?

I think the real answer here is the media is working to push Pippen. Think about it. When is the last time you turned on the TV and didn't see Pippen hawking some merchandise? Isn't he doing My Pillow ads these days, among others? The media is working overtime to hype Pippen because the money is with Pippen. The more hyped he is, the more ads he can sell and the more revenue he brings in to channels like ESPN. Hence the conspiracy to tell everyone how good he was--when we all know he really was by the worst "star" of the 90's, as 3ball and co. have exposed. Was Pippen even better than Chris Gatling or Tyrone Hill? Would he even make an all-star team if he didn't play in Chicago?



True. Not only that, why was Pippen even on the floor? As 3ball says, Kukoc>Pippen. Why didn't they just make Kukoc the starting SF and have Pippen come off the bench during the same stints Randy Brown played? Phil Jackson is clueless. 3ball>Phil Jackson.

those highlights show shading/help defense that everyone does - you don't think jordan has tons of help defense highlights and better than Pippen?.. you don't think Butler or George had highlights like that? You think we're stupid on here or something? ... Those highlights mean as much as the first brick I take when I go ball right now...

Ultimately, the Pacers had lesser offense in that series because MJ held their highest-volume player to 38% shooting and the Pacers were wearing down from guarding and doubling MJ, so they had less capacity for offense (MJ-ball wins the attrition battle)

[RRR3]

those highlights show shading/help defense that everyone does - you don't think jordan has tons of help defense highlights and better than Pippen?.. you don't think Butler or George had highlights like that? You think we're stupid on here or something? ... Those highlights mean as much as the first brick I take when I go ball right now...

Ultimately, the Pacers had lesser offense in that series because MJ held their highest-volume player to 38% shooting and the Pacers were wearing down from guarding and doubling MJ, so they had less capacity for offense (MJ-ball wins the attrition battle)
Why should we believe anything you say when you've been caught lying numerous times on here? And make ridiculous claims like dunking 4 times on a row on Zach Randolph and scoring at will on Raja Bell?

[3ball]

Why should we believe anything you say when you've been caught lying numerous times on here? And make ridiculous claims like dunking 4 times on a row on Zach Randolph and scoring at will on Raja Bell?

I posted video of myself in flip-flops doing mid-range contested pull-ups that lebron avoids, and a behind-the-back crossover gather-step that he's since copied and increasingly uses as he ages (it's easier on the knees than a regular crossover in front of body)

And I promised to post a handles video this year.. I might film some of it right now.. we'll see

[Roundball_Rock]

I posted video of myself in flip-flops doing mid-range contested pull-ups that lebron avoids, and a behind-the-back crossover gather-step that he's since copied and increasingly uses as he ages (it's easier on the knees than a regular crossover in front of body)

And I promised to post a handles video this year.. I might film some of it right now.. we'll see

Don't forget the "many beautiful women" or the "hottest woman in Vegas". :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

I posted video of myself in flip-flops doing mid-range contested pull-ups that lebron avoids, and a behind-the-back crossover gather-step that he's since copied and increasingly uses as he ages (it's easier on the knees than a regular crossover in front of body)

And I promised to post a handles video this year.. I might film some of it right now.. we'll see Where's your videos? YouTube channel? I want to watch one of yr videos.

[RRR3]

I posted video of myself in flip-flops doing mid-range contested pull-ups that lebron avoids, and a behind-the-back crossover gather-step that he's since copied and increasingly uses as he ages (it's easier on the knees than a regular crossover in front of body)

And I promised to post a handles video this year.. I might film some of it right now.. we'll see
You posted a video in which we could barely see anything. Looked like you were filming some random guys at the park tbh. Where's the proof you played at FIU? Eh?

[Roundball_Rock]

You posted a video in which we could barely see anything. Looked like you were filming some random guys at the park tbh. Where's the proof you played at FIU? Eh?

How do we even know it is him? Anyone can post a random video and claim it is them.

[RRR3]

How do we even know it is him? Anyone can post a random video and claim it is them.
Exactly. Dude filmed some guys at the park and claimed it was him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. Dude filmed some guys at the park and claimed it was him.

:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

You posted a video in which we could barely see anything. Looked like you were filming some random guys at the park tbh. Where's the proof you played at FIU? Eh?
He averaged 1.9ppg at FIU off the bench

3ball was a decent baller but he's lying about all the interactions with NBA players.. for whatever reasons

[RRR3]

He averaged 1.9ppg at FIU off the bench

3ball was a decent baller but he's lying about all the interactions with NBA players.. for whatever reasons
Where did you get his PPG?

[3ball]

Give us an example of a player shutting someone down in your opinion.

Jordan held the opposing SG to 13-17 pts and 35-43% every series.. pretty much.. Drexler got 26 on 41%

Dumars, Isiah, Miller, Majerle, Starks, Nick Anderson, Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper - locked them all down.. pretty much

[Smoke117]

Jordan held the opposing SG to 13-17 pts and 35-43% every series.. pretty much.. Drexler got 26 on 41%

Dumars, Isiah, Miller, Majerle, Starks, Nick Anderson, Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper - locked them all down.. pretty much

Decided to just pick Ron Harper randomly...1989 playoffs: Ron Harper - 19.6ppg on .565%fg. In 1988 the year before? 17.8ppg on 47%fg. So much for what you have to say. lmfao This is all beside the fact that most of those guys are 2nd rate stars (if they are even stars at all) anyway. Not exactly going up against Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, Tracy Mcgrady, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter is he?

[3ball]

Decided to just pick Ron Harper randomly...1989 playoffs: Ron Harper - 19.6ppg on .565%fg. In 1988 the year before? 17.8ppg on 47%fg. So much for what you have to say. lmfao This is all beside the fact that most of those guys are 2nd rate stars (if they are even stars at all) anyway. Not exactly going up against Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, Tracy Mcgrady, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter is he?

Look up the others

MJ held the opposing SG to 13-17 on 35-43% shooting - it's facts - he locked his man up while everyone got theirs on Pippen and Pippen was frequently outplayed

Pippen was outplayed by 2nd options in over a dozen series that mj won... Guys like Kemp, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, X-man, Willis, Dumars, Ron Harper and many more outplayed this scrubs

[WhiteKyrie]

Decided to just pick Ron Harper randomly...1989 playoffs: Ron Harper - 19.6ppg on .565%fg. In 1988 the year before? 17.8ppg on 47%fg. So much for what you have to say. lmfao This is all beside the fact that most of those guys are 2nd rate stars (if they are even stars at all) anyway. Not exactly going up against Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, Tracy Mcgrady, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter is he?
Yea, but that was the generation of SG's directly inspired or imitating the lineage of Jordan's game himself.

So how would he be able to face prime little lesser clones of himself running around while he was dominating in his prime / peak of 1987 - 1998? Do you know how dumb that sounds?

Also, Jordan did quite well defensively or on both sides of the ball even at 39 and 40 years old on the Wizards against all those guys. In 1997, and 1998 he donkey dicked young Frobe, and Ray Allen

[Smoke117]

Yea, but that was the generation of SG's directly inspired or imitating the lineage of Jordan's game himself.

So how would he be able to face prime little lesser clones of himself running around while he was dominating in his prime / peak of 1987 - 1998? Do you know how dumb that sounds?

Also, Jordan did quite well defensively or on both sides of the ball even at 39 and 40 years old on the Wizards against all those guys. In 1997, and 1998 he donkey dicked young Frobe, and Ray Allen

Every 6-5, 6-6 athletic sg to immediately come after Jordan is not a clone, dumb ass. Kobe is the only clone of those guys as he patterned his game exactly after him. In fact, Pippen was actually Mcgrady's hero growing up. Also, Ray Allen had two back to back 27 point games against Jordan in 98.

[Roundball_Rock]

The mimicking thing is overblown. They point to some players emulating Jordan but ignore Jordan himself did the same with David Thompson and Dr. J. Unless you were the first generation to play everyone had heroes.

[Whoah10115]

Awards don't mean much - Ron Harper was doing hard work for 2nd three peat & Jordan kept making all defense teams.

Jordan was a better defender.