Defense in the '80s and '90s was NOT better than Today

[Deuce Bigalow]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484

League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

[gengiskhan]

Welcome to the Jungle

1993 Knicks VS Bulls Game 1: 24 mins of pure carnage.


1993 Knicks VS Bulls Game 3: Jordan vs Starks fight. Pippen vs Rivers fight. Oakley vs the whole bulls fight. King vs Ewing fight all in one game. WELCOME TO THE REAL PHYSICAL PLAYOFF B'BALL HEAVEN. Fans pure extascy !!!!!


NOW FAAAAKING CLOSE THE THREAD ALREADY.

CASE DISMISSED. R.I.P. REAL NBA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRsNNYM-g1w)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Welcome to the Jungle

1993 Knicks VS Bulls Game 1: 24 mins of pure carnage.


1993 Knicks VS Bulls Game 3: Jordan vs Starks fight. Pippen vs Rivers fight. Oakley vs the whole bulls fight. King vs Ewing fight all in one game. WELCOME TO THE REAL PHYSICAL PLAYOFF B'BALL HEAVEN. Fans pure extascy !!!!!


NOW FAAAAKING CLOSE THE THREAD ALREADY.

CASE DISMISSED. R.I.P. REAL NBA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRsNNYM-g1w)
http://i.imgur.com/KZQWK.gif

[andgar923]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484

League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

Your understanding of basketball.

http://i.imgur.com/KZQWK.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe stans repeating themselves until they believe this lie. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Your understanding of basketball.

http://i.imgur.com/KZQWK.gif
Can't argue with my post?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe stans repeating themselves until they believe this lie. :oldlol:
What lie? :oldlol:

[imdaman99]

i feel like the defensive specialists of this day and age are a lot taller with more athleticism than they were 15-25 years ago

[ILLsmak]

What lie? :oldlol:

I think players in the NBA before were smarter. They got better shots. Guys in the league now are just chucking. Think about how many guys shoot horrible percentages not because they somehow lack the ability to shoot but because they won't pass.

I think the D in the 80s and 90s was more physical. Individually it was better, but now they have better schemes to stop people.

They were able to get guys complete isos and that would never happen in this NBA.

Edit: It also seems like teams are shooting a lot more 3s.

-Smak

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What lie? :oldlol:

What do you think? :confusedshrug:

Educate yourself:


The death of defense?
by Roland Lazenby / October 20, 2006:

It remains one of the enduring images of NBA lore – Joe Dumars guarding a determined young Michael Jordan in the 1990 Eastern Conference playoffs.

Dumars of the “Bad Boy” Detroit Pistons, the league’s two-time defending champs, looked like a gaucho corralling the ultimate toro, his feet moving furiously (maybe the best defensive slide in the history of the game), one forearm firmly barred into Jordan to keep contact, the other bent arm thrust into the air, giving Dumars his only hope of keeping his balance while trying to ride the Jordan whirlwind.

Jerry West watched the performance and remarked privately that most people considered Isiah Thomas the Pistons’ superstar, but West pointed out that it was Dumars who was the supreme talent.

Why?

Well, West said, both Thomas and Dumars could push the envelope offensively, “but Joe’s defense sets him apart.”

Just how good was that defense?

It left a supremely disappointed Jordan sobbing at the back of the team bus when the series was over (it’s also probably the only NBA defense ever to spawn a best-selling book: Sam Smith’s ‘The Jordan Rules’).

Indeed, it was a formative moment in pro basketball history because it brought Jordan the ultimate challenge and propelled him toward a greatness that fascinated a global audience. Whether they liked pro basketball or not, people felt compelled to watch “His Airness” grow up against the Pistons’ physical challenge.

“I think that ‘Jordan Rules’ defense, as much as anything else, played a part in the making of Michael Jordan,” said Tex Winter, who was an assistant coach for that Chicago team. The 1990 loss forced Jordan and the Bulls to find an answer to Detroit’s muscle.

“Those Jordan Rules were murder,” Winter explained. “The fact that we could win the next year even though they were playing that defense says everything about Jordan as a competitor. Any lesser player would have folded his tent.”

Jordan had to dig deeper to respond to the Pistons, and his effort pushed his Bulls to six championships over the next eight seasons.

The unfortunate footnote to this legacy is that under an interpretation of the rules adopted by the NBA last season, if Dumars were playing today he would not be allowed to guard Jordan so physically, or perhaps even guard him at all.

Today Dumars is the chief basketball executive of the team he once led as a player. He’s an honest man, which means he chooses his words carefully.

Asked in July if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, then offered a long pause before replying, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”



..cont

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

[quote]THE NEW WAY

Just how is the game being called these days?

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

[quote]FAVORING ONE STYLE OVER ANOTHER

Dumars put together a Pistons team that won an NBA championship in 2004 and made a return to the Finals in 2005. That team would have a harder time playing its defensive style in today

[Deuce Bigalow]

While you're at it bring in the quotes saying he would average 50 ppg today :lol

[andgar923]

http://*********.com/articles/defense_lazenby.htm

But taking out of context numbers fits his/their agenda, and not actually making intelligent informed posts.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Look it's simple. If it made a big difference then offense efficiency would skyrocket, but it didn't, it stayed the same.

[Deuce Bigalow]

But taking out of context numbers fits his/their agenda, and not actually making intelligent informed posts.
how are they out of context? lol
it's offensive efficiency in each decade. How is that "out of context"?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But taking out of context numbers fits his/their agenda, and not actually making intelligent informed posts.

Add red herring/strawman fallacies to that.

[Soundwave]

how are they out of context? lol
it's offensive efficiency in each decade. How is that "out of context"?

Weren't the early 90s and late 90s fairly different in these numbers?

Also do we atribute lower ppg/shooting percentages strictly based on defence? What about players simply not shooting as well these days? Shooting is a bit of a lost art and a lot of guys jack a ton of stupid 3 pointers these days.

[StateOfMind12]

Or those stats could mean that offenses were better in the 80s and 90s than they are in today's league, just a thought.

It is easier for a player to score in a 1 on 1 situation in today's league than it was back in the 80s and 90s and that isn't much of an opinion, it is pretty much a fact. Perimeter player's shooting numbers and efficiency sky-rocketed as soon as the no hand-check was created and that isn't just some coincidence either.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Weren't the early 90s and late 90s fairly different in these numbers?
The pace slowed down pretty dramatically(107.0 PPG in '90 to 95.6 PPG in '98 and 91.6 PPG in '99), and the eFG% dipped down pretty low in '98 and '99. The eFG% wasn't that much different from the early '90s to late '90s except the last 2 years of the decade.

[I<3NBA]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484
oh look, players in the 80's and 90's were better shooters than today. :lol not any surprise when one of today's considered best player like Kobe is a chucker who shoots low percentage shots. Kobe himself probably contributed to that low percentage all by himself :lol what?


League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9
oh look, teams employed a running game more in the 80's and 90's while teams today slowed the game down to half court sets :confusedshrug:


% of Points from the Freethrow line
'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5
oh, what a surprise, players of the 80's and 90's were better free throw shooters than today's league :rolleyes: wait. you don't say? a team can't play defense while an opposing player shoots free throw? fk that! i'm including this stat to prove defenses were weak in the 80's and 90's :lol
what you mean fewer fouls mean better defense? wouldn't you say more fouls mean the game is more physical hence defense harder? fk thinking! i'm into my stupid zone here! :lol

[Soundwave]

The pace slowed down pretty dramatically(107.0 PPG in '90 to 95.6 PPG in '98 and 91.6 PPG in '99), and the eFG% dipped down pretty low in '98 and '99. The eFG% wasn't that much different from the early '90s to late '90s except the last 2 years of the decade.

So by this metric the best defences were actually in the late 90s, not that I agree with the premise to begin with.

[andgar923]

how are they out of context? lol
it's offensive efficiency in each decade. How is that "out of context"?

You can't be this stupid... just can't.

[Leviathon1121]

Prepare for a summer of extreme Kobe stan damage control. Their methods of diminishing past eras are going to get more and more extreme the longer it takes Bryant to accumulate his accolades.

These guys are pissed, and their hearts are aching because Bryant did not get that 6th ring.

Stay mad Kobe stans. :lol

[westsideozzie]

Stats are for losers. In the 90's and 80's like the Knick series, people had to shoot and worry about getting punched in the face or thrown to the ground. It was like inmate gorilla ball. It takes heart and concentration to get the ball in the hoop come playoff time back in the day. Don't really care about how high you jump or how fast you are, does your heart pump cool aid?

Mike and Scottie was the best two way wing duo of all time because of their defense, offensive arsenal, and tough mental makeup. Lebron lacks what those cats had.






?

[Odinn]

Leaving out pace?

Also when your precious Kobe got his first title as the alpha, league's efg% was .500. Higher than 80s, higher than 90s. When he got his 5th title, it was .501.

From mid 90s to mid 00s, pace - efg% and ppg took a hike. From mid 00s to today, the league's having one of the most efficient span in the history.

[DuMa]

using standard and advanced metrics to describe defense. :facepalm.

[Cali Syndicate]

Just a thought but threes are shot at a much higher rate in today's era than in the eras past. I'm guessing if you compare FG%'s inside the arc between the eras, it tells a whole different story.

And why do a comparison for %'s inside the arc? Because softer hand-checking rules isn't for shooting threes now is it?

[lbj23clutch]

It seems like we have this same thread every year. :sleeping

[PTB Fan]

Yea, right..:rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

By this logic, defense in '09-'11 was worse than from '06-'08, so defense has been steadily getting worse. :oldlol:

[thelucifer69]

Look it's simple. If it made a big difference then offense efficiency would skyrocket, but it didn't, it stayed the same.

may be offence get worse

[necya]

By this logic, defense in '09-'11 was worse than from '06-'08, so defense has been steadily getting worse. :oldlol:

:D

[Knoe Itawl]

The fact that it's always Kobetards who start these threads tells you everything you need to know about the validity of the argument.

[Owl]

My primary objection is the idea that two decades of basketball can be lumped together and assumed to be at an equal quality.

Leaving aside the lack of precision in terms of what exactly we are talking about (for example:how do we account for changes in pace) treating 1980 and 2000 as analagous is absurd.

If we are speaking in lazy generalisations I would say 80s was a weaker era for defense, particularly on the wings, which may account for the glut of scoring small forwards from that era (Bird, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, Worthy, Wilkins, Tripucka, Vandeweghe, Purvis Short etc). But I'd have to research it properly to back that up and I don't have the time or will to do so.

But if this were to be used as an implicit Kobe versus Jordan thing, then fortunately advanced stats normalise to the era by comparing players with their peers (who face the same level of difficulty scoring, because they play against the same defences). Jordan is the greatest by such measures, wheras Kobe merely appears to be a very, very good indeed player (whose peak was inferior to others playing the same position in the same era such as T-Mac and D-Wade).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Team PPG and FG% allowed stats also assume constant offensive quality, when in fact teams have regressed offensively since the 80's for a variety of reasons (lesser concentration of talent, micromanagement by coaches, comparative lack of pass-first PG's, lack of fundamentals such as off ball movement, passing, and motion offenses and midrange shot/game etc.).

Fact is, if you place all teams from, say, 2007 back in the 1987-1989 NBA and have them play a full season, the '07 teams would NOT hold the '87-'89 teams to the league averages from '07. They might hold them to worse numbers than the '87-'89 NBA actually averaged, but nowhere near the league averages from '07. And that has to do with the stuff I mentioned above. Offenses were just flat-out more potent in the 80's and early 90's.

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol jordan jockers are getting mad. I'm not diminishing anything :facepalm
The defense hasn't changed.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I dont know what this has to do with Kobe?

I hear from these Jordan fans all the time saying that it was harder to score in their tough era.
But it wasn't harder at all

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol jordan jockers are getting mad. I'm not diminishing anything :facepalm
The defense hasn't changed.

The defense has changed with respect to individual players, namely perimeter players. Looking at league ppg/FG% introduces a ton of other factors (some of which I noted above) which are not strictly related to the question of whether it's easier for an INDIVIDUAL perimeter player to score big in the '06-'11 era as compared to, say, '86-'90 or '90-'95. All the evidence points to the fact that it became much easier for perimeter players to rack up big games from '06 onward. All of it.

[Knoe Itawl]

I dont know what this has to do with Kobe?
I hear from these Jordan fans all the time saying that it was harder to score in their tough era.
But it wasn't harder at all

It has to do with Kobe because only people like you and your merry band of Kobe worshipping idiots embrace this "argument". So it's one of two things:

A. Only Kobe worshippers have the insight to see what the majority of the knowledgeable basketball world doesn't

or

B. Kobe worshippers have to come up with some sort of nonsense to explain why Bryant doesn't measure up to Michael Jordan, which is an eternal source of frustration for them.

My money is on B.