If Lebron shot at the end of games, could he become GOAT?

[therammingman]

He has everything except the taking over of games at the end and late game heroics...if he tried, do you think he'd be successful enough to surpass MJ?

[NumberSix]

LeBron is #3 on my BOAT list.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, because his problems have gone well beyond that. His playoff performances in '10 and '11 weren't just disappointing because of 4th quarters or last shots, but because his overall games were shockingly quiet by his standards, and difficult to believe compared to the unbelievable level he;s played at the past 4 seasons. But he's had an excellent playoff so far, and responded great after subpar performances in games 2 and 3 vs Indiana. Granted, he was very good until the finals last year, but maybe this is the year he temporarily shuts up his critics, but I won't care if he hits a gamewinner or not, as long as he has a strong finals series and wins a ring.

[Lebron23]

He has everything except the taking over of games at the end and late game heroics...if he tried, do you think he'd be successful enough to surpass MJ?


Do you have a tv or an internet connection? LBJ is leading the NBA in 4th quarter scoring this season.

[therammingman]

Do you have a tv or an internet connection? LBJ is leading the NBA in 4th quarter scoring this season.

i don't give a shit about regular season...dude dominates every regular season and disappears in the playoffs, be it the first round, second, third or finals as he did last year.

[cteach111]

Do you have a tv or an internet connection? LBJ is leading the NBA in 4th quarter scoring this postseason.

fixed

[therammingman]

fixed

let's see how he does in this round and the finals if he gets there....

he was excellent last year until he disappeared in the finals.

[cteach111]

let's see how he does in this round and the finals if he gets there....

he was excellent last year until he disappeared in the finals.

i know how ur feeling man...

http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/crybaby.png

it's alright dude, life goes on.

[magnax1]

No, because his problems have gone well beyond that. His playoff performances in '10 and '11 weren't just disappointing because of 4th quarters or last shots, but because his overall games were shockingly quiet by his standards, and difficult to believe compared to the unbelievable level he;s played at the past 4 seasons. But he's had an excellent playoff so far, and responded great after subpar performances in games 2 and 3 vs Indiana. Granted, he was very good until the finals last year, but maybe this is the year he temporarily shuts up his critics, but I won't care if he hits a gamewinner or not, as long as he has a strong finals series and wins a ring.
Not only in 10 and 11, but also in 08 vs the Celtics, and 07 in the finals.
I want to see how he responds to Boston now that they can load up on him. Seems exactly like one of those series he might collapse in.

[cteach111]

Not only in 10 and 11, but also in 08 vs the Celtics, and 07 in the finals.
I want to see how he responds to Boston now that they can load up on him. Seems exactly like one of those series he might collapse in.

you are seriously overlooking how old & broken Boston is. That team is BEAT UP.

They've got no shot. If this were the Celts in March and April, I might have thought different.

[therammingman]

you are seriously overlooking how old & broken Boston is. That team is BEAT UP.

They've got no shot. If this were the Celts in March and April, I might have thought different.

i think he will dominate vs. the celtics....i'm not so certain he won't fade again in the finals

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not only in 10 and 11, but also in 08 vs the Celtics, and 07 in the finals.
I want to see how he responds to Boston now that they can load up on him. Seems exactly like one of those series he might collapse in.

Well, he was a more flawed player in '07 and '08. His shooting was poor in '08 and terrible in '07, so both the Spurs and Celtics defended him accordingly giving him the jumper and taking away the drives. So I viewed those as a big flaw in his game being exposed, while the '10 and '11 series are just puzzling to me and point more towards mentality.

[Lebron23]

Stop overrating the Celtics. A Motivated and Angry Heat team will finish the job in less than 6 games.

[cteach111]

i think he will dominate vs. the celtics....i'm not so certain he won't fade again in the finals

we'll see. one series at a time.

my argument is that it's merely a matter of the circumstances. He got to the finals against the Spurs in 2007, but the guy was 22 years old in his 2nd postseason. I would think people would give him a pass for that.

The 2011 Finals was his first year in a different role. The Heat gutted it out though in the postseason and made it to the Finals.

I don't know if I fully understand Lebron's mentality, but the circumstances under which his worst performances happened came at turbulent times. The 2010 Free Agency, the massive buzz around the 2011 Heat and trying to figure everything out in that first year.

Lebron's settled in now though. He's got a year under his belt with the Heat. He's clearly more comfortable in his role this year compared to last year. He's playing with more confidence. Let's see how this player does from this point forward.

So far, he's posting a 32+ PER which is ridiculous.. much higher compared to last year. He's been playing closer to his 09/10 levels than in 2011. I would think that should be considered.

2011 was an uncharacteristic year of productivity compared to his other prime years.

[magnax1]

Well, he was a more flawed player in '07 and '08. His shooting was poor in '08 and terrible in '07, so both the Spurs and Celtics defended him accordingly giving him the jumper and taking away the drives. So I viewed those as a big flaw in his game being exposed, while the '10 and '11 series are just puzzling to me and point more towards mentality.
I don't think they're all that different, because the way he was played in all those series has a lot in common. They just forced him into spots he didn't like or he lost confidence in his jumper (mostly a combination of the two)
Though yes, he was a different and much worse player in 08 and 07. It still didn't really surprise me because he has done it most years of his career.

[magnax1]

you are seriously overlooking how old & broken Boston is. That team is BEAT UP.

They've got no shot. If this were the Celts in March and April, I might have thought different.
I think losing Bradley is huge because he could've been great against Wade, but I don't really have a solidified opinion on how this series will work out. I don't know how great KG can be, Im not sure if both Wade and Lebron can be absolutely dominant for a whole series after this schedule, and I don't know how much of an impact this Boston defense will have on either of them now that they can just pack it on them without Bosh (that's why I mentioned that I thought Lebron might break down) Really, I could see Boston winning if they can really play defense like they have in years past, but I could also see them getting swept. I just have no clue.

[keepinitreal]

Not only in 10 and 11, but also in 08 vs the Celtics, and 07 in the finals.
I want to see how he responds to Boston now that they can load up on him. Seems exactly like one of those series he might collapse in.

Didn't he put up like 50 pts vs the 08 celtics in game 7 (and took them to 7 games no less) with andersen varajao as his best teammate?

those 08 celtics won the nba finals, too, btw.

[PickernRoller]

Didn't he put up like 50 pts vs the 08 celtics in game 7 (and took them to 7 games no less) with andersen varajao as his best teammate?

those 08 celtics won the nba finals, too, btw.

Truth be told, Celtics have never had it easy with Lebron...Lebron just hates them to death I guess, or the Celtics simply do a bad job - I just can't believe why the Celtics always struggle with Lebron while other teams do such a better job. It's easy if you think about it, what other teams have done before....block the paint...force jumpshots. Match up problem with Pierce.

[pauk]

Hahahaahahahahahahahah............................ wwoooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Since when does Lebron not shoot at the end of games? are you trolling now or are you seriuos???????? Lebron not taking shots at the end of games? :roll: I know he is not as selfish of a ballhoger and one dimensional as Kobe/Durant/Carmelo which means he might pass sometimes to an open teammate AND DOESNT ONLY THINK ABOUT SCORING 24-7....... but nobody is actually more "clutch" today than Lebron....

Alrighty then.......


1. Lebron has made more gamewinners/gametying shots than ANYBODY today since coming in the league 2004 and at a high %....
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

2. season-playoffs since 1996 he is right up there:
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-Clutch.png

3. Lebron is always at the top in Clutch stats: "Productions with 5 minutes or less of the game and neither ahead of more than 5 points"
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg

4. Lebron today leads the league in 4th quarter scoring, especially in playoffs... which means he is to busy killing teams in the 4th so he doesnt have to put his team in so many gamelosing/gametied/3 seconds left hero ball situations..... 2012 Playoffs 4th quarter:

1st round 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 8.5 PPG
2. Tony Parker - 8.0 PPG
3. Dirk Nowitzki - 8.0 PPG
4. Kevin Durant - 7.5 PPG
5. Carmelo Anthony - 7.4 PPG
6. James Harden - 7.3 PPG
7. Kevin Garnett - 6.4 PPG
8. Kobe Bryant - 6.1 PPG
9. Rudy Gay - 5.6 PPG
10. Paul Pierce - 5.3 PPG

Conference Semifinals 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 10.0 PPG
2. Kevin Durant - 9.3 PPG
3. Kobe Bryant - 8.3 PPG
4. Kevin Garnett - 7.0 PPG
5. Dwyane Wade - 6.8 PPG
6. Jodie Meeks - 6.6 PPG
7. James Harden - 6.0 PPG
8. Eric Bledsoe - 5.4 PPG
9. Tony Parker - 5.3 PPG
10. Maurice Williams - 4.3 PPG









/THREAD

[oolalaa]

Hahahaahahahahahahahah............................ wwoooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Since when does Lebron not shoot at the end of games? are you trolling now or are you seriuos???????? Lebron not taking shots at the end of games? :roll: I know he is not as selfish of a ballhoger and one dimensional as Kobe/Durant/Carmelo which means he might pass sometimes to an open teammate AND DOESNT ONLY THINK ABOUT SCORING 24-7....... but nobody is actually more "clutch" today than Lebron....

Alrighty then.......


1. Lebron has made more gamewinners/gametying shots than ANYBODY today since coming in the league 2004 and at a high %....
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

2. season-playoffs since 1996 he is right up there:
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-Clutch.png

3. Lebron is always at the top in Clutch stats: "Productions with 5 minutes or less of the game and neither ahead of more than 5 points"
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg

4. Lebron today leads the league in 4th quarter scoring, especially in playoffs... which means he is to busy killing teams in the 4th so he doesnt have to put his team in so many gamelosing/gametied/3 seconds left hero ball situations..... 2012 Playoffs 4th quarter:

1st round 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 8.5 PPG
2. Tony Parker - 8.0 PPG
3. Dirk Nowitzki - 8.0 PPG
4. Kevin Durant - 7.5 PPG
5. Carmelo Anthony - 7.4 PPG
6. James Harden - 7.3 PPG
7. Kevin Garnett - 6.4 PPG
8. Kobe Bryant - 6.1 PPG
9. Rudy Gay - 5.6 PPG
10. Paul Pierce - 5.3 PPG

Conference Semifinals 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 10.0 PPG
2. Kevin Durant - 9.3 PPG
3. Kobe Bryant - 8.3 PPG
4. Kevin Garnett - 7.0 PPG
5. Dwyane Wade - 6.8 PPG
6. Jodie Meeks - 6.6 PPG
7. James Harden - 6.0 PPG
8. Eric Bledsoe - 5.4 PPG
9. Tony Parker - 5.3 PPG
10. Maurice Williams - 4.3 PPG









/THREAD

You're delusional pauk.

Sure, Lebron is and always has been an underrated 4th quarter performer. I don't think anyone is debating that (at least no one who is objective). However, when it's a BIG game and it's really close in crunch time (like in the final 2 mins or so), he wants no part of the pressure. He's mentally weak.

Let me ask you, what did you make of his complete and utter meltdown in last years finals? What did that show you? It must have alarmed you, surely?? Would you be calling Bron the best player in the league if he choked away the next 3 finals too?


And why do you keep rolling out stats that are 2/3/4 years old anyway? Is it to hide Lebron's 4th quarter/game winning shot inadaquecies in the last couple of years?

[Indian guy]

LeBron's issue as a Heat is sustaining high level of play through the course of an entire game, not late in games, where he's generally been the best since entering the league. He leads the playoffs in 4th qtr ppg so far.

[Indian guy]

Sure, Lebron is and always has been an underrated 4th quarter performer.

Underrated would be a massive understatement. He has the reputation of a choke artist, but on average, he has pretty much been the league's best late-game player since '06. This applies to the postseason too. The numbers are all there.


And why do you keep rolling out stats that are 2/3/4 years old anyway?

Because LeBron has the reputation of NEVER being clutch, so these morons need to be set straight.

[IGOTGAME]

Stop overrating the Celtics. A Motivated and Angry Heat team will finish the job in less than 6 games.

should be 5 games. Celtics team is bad. They wouldnt make it out the first round of the West.

[Meticode]

Do you have a tv or an internet connection? LBJ is leading the NBA in 4th quarter scoring this season.
The only way he's overcoming this if he shows up in the Finals. The only way to crush the choke job he did last year is to not choke in the same exact situation. So far he's been pretty good this post-season compared to last year, but we'll only know how good until he has all the pressure, or if he passes it to Wade.

[Meticode]

Hahahaahahahahahahahah............................ wwoooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Since when does Lebron not shoot at the end of games? are you trolling now or are you seriuos???????? Lebron not taking shots at the end of games? :roll: I know he is not as selfish of a ballhoger and one dimensional as Kobe/Durant/Carmelo which means he might pass sometimes to an open teammate AND DOESNT ONLY THINK ABOUT SCORING 24-7....... but nobody is actually more "clutch" today than Lebron....

Alrighty then.......


1. Lebron has made more gamewinners/gametying shots than ANYBODY today since coming in the league 2004 and at a high %....
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

2. season-playoffs since 1996 he is right up there:
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-Clutch.png

3. Lebron is always at the top in Clutch stats: "Productions with 5 minutes or less of the game and neither ahead of more than 5 points"
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg

4. Lebron today leads the league in 4th quarter scoring, especially in playoffs... which means he is to busy killing teams in the 4th so he doesnt have to put his team in so many gamelosing/gametied/3 seconds left hero ball situations..... 2012 Playoffs 4th quarter:

1st round 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 8.5 PPG
2. Tony Parker - 8.0 PPG
3. Dirk Nowitzki - 8.0 PPG
4. Kevin Durant - 7.5 PPG
5. Carmelo Anthony - 7.4 PPG
6. James Harden - 7.3 PPG
7. Kevin Garnett - 6.4 PPG
8. Kobe Bryant - 6.1 PPG
9. Rudy Gay - 5.6 PPG
10. Paul Pierce - 5.3 PPG

Conference Semifinals 4th quarter scoring leaders:

1. Lebron James - 10.0 PPG
2. Kevin Durant - 9.3 PPG
3. Kobe Bryant - 8.3 PPG
4. Kevin Garnett - 7.0 PPG
5. Dwyane Wade - 6.8 PPG
6. Jodie Meeks - 6.6 PPG
7. James Harden - 6.0 PPG
8. Eric Bledsoe - 5.4 PPG
9. Tony Parker - 5.3 PPG
10. Maurice Williams - 4.3 PPG









/THREAD
I noticed you posted stats from years ago. Cleveland LeBron > Miami LeBron as far as clutch factor goes. After he left for Miami he totally did away with carrying the load and isn't considered clutch anymore. If the Heat need a bucket they depend on Wade more times than not.

[oolalaa]

Underrated would be a massive understatement. He has the reputation of a choke artist, but on average, he has pretty much been the league's best late-game player since '06. This applies to the postseason too. The numbers are all there.



Because LeBron has the reputation of NEVER being clutch, so these morons need to be set straight.

Numbers lie. Lebron, in his career to date at least, is a perfect example of this (along with Wilt). You can put up all the stats you want, if you stink up the joint or just simply refuse to show up when it really matters most (i.e final 2 minutes of a close, big game) then those stats become hollow and redundant.

[Indian guy]

Numbers lie. Lebron, in his career to date at least, is a perfect example of this

You're an idiot. Cleveland was the league's best close-game team from 08-10 (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/42245/some-nba-teams-clutch-in-crunch-time). LeBron's crunch time dominance leads to WINS. His production is the opposite of hollow.


You can put up all the stats you want

Yeah, putting up "numbers" late in close games sure sucks :rolleyes:


if you stink up the joint or just simply refuse to show up when it really matters most (i.e final 2 minutes of a close, big game)

LeBron has the best numbers in the last 2 minutes of close games too. http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/23/clutch-play-shots-to-tielead-inside-2-minutes/

[Sakkreth]

i don't give a shit about regular season...dude dominates every regular season and disappears in the playoffs, be it the first round, second, third or finals as he did last year.

No, he's the same beast in playoffs as in regualr season if not better, he disappears in finals not in playoffs.

[Ketchup]

I was ecstatic when we got the Lebron. I remember him absolutely burying my Heat when playing against the Cavs a few times, hitting late shots and free throws to win games for them against us.
I'd even watch close games the Cavs would have against other teams, and cheer against them hoping Lebron would fail, since he was my least favorite player before he came over to the Heat; now he's probably my favorite. Though he'd still get the job done against the other teams to my disappointment.

Now, since coming to the Heat... All I can think of late in games is, 'GO AND GET THE F***EN BALL. YOU'RE THE BEST PLAYER, AND HIGHEST % SHOOTER. YOU HAVE THE HIGHEST CHANCE OF GETTING IT IN'.
And yet he stays away from it.

I don't think it's even because he's scared of the moment or anything. He may have just gone retarded. Hopefully he's fixed the issue and figured he needs to go after his legacy if he wants to be remembered.

[amfirst]

No because LeBron is a stat filler. He knows if he shot in th e4th quarter than he would miss the shots, being that the defense typically is more intense. So he prefers to pass the ball so he wouldn't miss the shot and hurt his stats or get blame for the lost.

[LBJDW305]

If he can dominate this playoffs and finals and win FMVP. He jumps in everyone's imaginary all time list

[Ketchup]

No because LeBron is a stat filler. He knows if he shot in th e4th quarter than he would miss the shots, being that the defense typically is more intense. So he prefers to pass the ball so he wouldn't miss the shot and hurt his stats or get blame for the lost.

**** you're an idiot.

[oolalaa]

You're an idiot. Cleveland was the league's best close-game team from 08-10 (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/42245/some-nba-teams-clutch-in-crunch-time). LeBron's crunch time dominance leads to WINS. His production is the opposite of hollow.



Yeah, putting up "numbers" late in close games sure sucks :rolleyes:



LeBron has the best numbers in the last 2 minutes of close games too. http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/23/clutch-play-shots-to-tielead-inside-2-minutes/

Look, it's really very simple....if Lebron was 'clutch' and a 'winner' then he would have won 3 championships by now. He is the most talented all around player the league has ever seen (imo at least). It's a pity he doesn't have the mental makeup up of Magic or Bird or Jordan - that's why he will never be 'greater' than them.

[amfirst]

He only takes shots against inferior defense. But when he knows he is up against great defense, he would not even try.

[oolalaa]

I was ecstatic when we got the Lebron. I remember him absolutely burying my Heat when playing against the Cavs a few times, hitting late shots and free throws to win games for them against us.
I'd even watch close games the Cavs would have against other teams, and cheer against them hoping Lebron would fail, since he was my least favorite player before he came over to the Heat; now he's probably my favorite. Though he'd still get the job done against the other teams to my disappointment.

Now, since coming to the Heat... All I can think of late in games is, 'GO AND GET THE F***EN BALL. YOU'RE THE BEST PLAYER, AND HIGHEST % SHOOTER. YOU HAVE THE HIGHEST CHANCE OF GETTING IT IN'.
And yet he stays away from it.

I don't think it's even because he's scared of the moment or anything. He may have just gone retarded. Hopefully he's fixed the issue and figured he needs to go after his legacy if he wants to be remembered.

:oldlol:

His lack of competitiveness/killer insinct has been exposed over the last 3 seasons, starting with game 5 against Boston in '10....

[dunksby]

I don't think even the haters would give him shit if he pulls a 2011 Dirk in this year's finals, but till then he is not worthy of being called clutch.

[cteach111]

He only takes shots against inferior defense. But when he knows he is up against great defense, he would not even try.

come on. at least think about what ur saying.

How did he look against Chicago last year? this year? Boston?

The guy has lit those teams up. Chicago is the biggest mystery. They are supposedly, the best defensive team in the league, and yet Lebron's J is ON POINT whenever he plays that team.

[Indian guy]

Look, it's really very simple

That you're a dumbass?


....if Lebron was 'clutch' and a 'winner' then he would have won 3 championships by now.

How do you come to this conclusion? :facepalm. He should have been winning championships with those 20-win casts in Cleveland? He definitely blew last year's championship, but it wasn't a 'choke'. He sucked in every qtr, not just the 4th qtr.


He is the most talented all around player the league has ever seen (imo at least)

That's ridiculous. Heat-LeBron couldn't be further from the most talented. What exactly is so special about him, beyond his defensive versatility?


It's a pity he doesn't have the mental makeup up of Magic or Bird

Right :rolleyes:. Guys who played with 10x the supporting casts he did for much of his career. I wonder what you'll say if LeBron wins it all this season. Does he suddenly become a "winner" and "clutch", the latter being a category he has owned since 2006.

[oolalaa]

That you're a dumbass?



How do you come to this conclusion? :facepalm. He should have been winning championships with those 20-win casts in Cleveland? He definitely blew last year's championship, but it wasn't a 'choke'. He sucked in every qtr, not just the 4th qtr.



That's ridiculous. Heat-LeBron couldn't be further from the most talented. What exactly is so special about him, beyond his defensive versatility?



Right :rolleyes:. Guys who played with 10x the supporting casts he did for much of his career. I wonder what you'll say if LeBron wins it all this season. Does he suddenly become a "winner" and "clutch", the latter being a category he has owned since 2006.

WOW :eek:. That's a lot of stupidity in 3 paragraphs. You're not worth responding to any more.

[Dro]

Well since everyone thinks Kobe's the ultimate closer, I guess you don't have to actually make any of the shots, just take them...so I guess I agree with the thread..

[markymark]

No. He won't even surpass Paul Pierce.

[RRR3]

Look, it's really very simple....if Lebron was 'clutch' and a 'winner' then he would have won 3 championships by now. He is the most talented all around player the league has ever seen (imo at least). It's a pity he doesn't have the mental makeup up of Magic or Bird or Jordan - that's why he will never be 'greater' than them.
LeBron has had one year where he should have won the championship. He blew it, yes. He's 0/1. Acting like he's 0/3 is just hating :facepalm

[RRR3]

No. He won't even surpass Paul Pierce.
LeBron surpassed Paul Pierce a long time ago:coleman:

[ILLsmak]

Yeah, LeBron just isn't that type of person.

You guys saw Manu last night. He went well beyond what you thought he was capable of doing.

LeBron isn't that kind of player. He might get hot in a game and have fun with it, but he's not the kind of guy that can do something like put 50 on someone just to prove a point.

If LeBron was capable of those Manu-level bursts, he would be able to get 50 easy.

-Smak

[pegasus]

Lebron, GOAT?:lol

My answer is no, but that may save his teammates from becoming scapegoats (pun intended) in the media. That's why he ain't taking those shots.

[swi7ch]

Jordan will always be the GOAT unless a particular player can surpass Jordan's individual accomplishments, records, championships, etc. How can LBJ (or anyone for that matter) be considered the GOAT if Jordan beats him in every category?

[cteach111]

Jordan will always be the GOAT unless a particular player can surpass Jordan's individual accomplishments, records, championships, etc. How can LBJ (or anyone for that matter) be considered the GOAT if Jordan beats him in every category?

because Lebron will beat him in points, rebounds, and assists when its all said and done. He'll have a few rings also (4-5 rings) and definitely will have more MVPs.

3 MVPs already by 27 years old. Jordan only had ONE..

[bwink23]

because Lebron will beat him in points, rebounds, and assists when its all said and done. He'll have a few rings also (4-5 rings) and definitely will have more MVPs.

3 MVPs already by 27 years old. Jordan only had ONE..


Longevity doesn't beat domination....never had and never will....:no:

[cteach111]

Longevity doesn't beat domination....never had and never will....:no:


Lebron's already approached that level of domination imo.

[Phong]

LeBron shooting at the end of games will offset the fact that he is 0/2 in the Finals and has lost for the past 3 years with HCA. Michael Jordan doesn't stand a chance.

[bwink23]

Lebron's already approached that level of domination imo.

:facepalm

Thank God that's your opinion.

[pegasus]

Lebron's already approached that level of domination imo.
We're not talking about dominating your own teammates, turning good players into scrubs, and great players into spot up shooters.

[Da_Realist]

He'll have a few rings also (4-5 rings) and definitely will have more MVPs.


I see his fans are just like him. You can't assume anybody will win 4-5 rings. Lebron's having a tough time just winning the first one. Hold off on the "4-5 rings" expectation.

[cteach111]

We're not talking about dominating your own teammates, turning good players into scrubs, and great players into spot up shooters.

great players like Wade? The spot up shooter that scored 41 points in an elimination game?

[cteach111]

I see his fans are just like him. You can't assume anybody will win 4-5 rings. Lebron's having a tough time just winning the first one. Hold off on the "4-5 rings" expectation.

in all likelihood, he's gonna get his first ring this year. the only reason he wouldn't is cause Bosh is injured :confusedshrug:

[pegasus]

great players like Wade? The spot up shooter that scored 41 points in an elimination game?
Why do you say it like Lebron should be given credit for that?

Bosh is a better example.

[cteach111]

Why do you say it like Lebron should be given credit for that?

Bosh is a better example.

why is Bosh a better example? With Wade out, Bosh produced 27 points on great efficiency.

[pegasus]

in all likelihood, he's gonna get his first ring this year. the only reason he wouldn't is cause Bosh is injured :confusedshrug:
And how many times will someone important on his team, including himself, have to be not injured in the next 5-6 years so he could win those imaginary 4-5 rings?

[pegasus]

why is Bosh a better example? With Wade out, Bosh produced 27 points on great efficiency.
So we agree that Lebron can only allow one player at a time to play up to their potential.

I guess Bosh's injury cannot be used as an excuse now since Lebron will let Wade get his.

[cteach111]

And how many times will someone important on his team, including himself, have to be not injured in the next 5-6 years so he could win those imaginary 4-5 rings?

that's the thing. it's tough. Lebron had that elbow injury that resulted in that poor 3-game stretch against Boston. Bosh goes down this year. It should also be noted that Spo ran Lebron into the ground in the 2011 Playoffs. He was too fatigued to continue playing.

Things happen, but they almost never happened to the 90's Bulls. They just got lucky to have guys healthy enough to play on the floor every year.

:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

in all likelihood, he's gonna get his first ring this year. the only reason he wouldn't is cause Bosh is injured :confusedshrug:

Yeah... sh*t happens. Looks like Lebron and his fans will need to learn that. That's exactly why you can't guarantee "4-5 rings".

[cteach111]

Yeah... sh*t happens. Looks like Lebron and his fans will need to learn that. That's exactly why you can't guarantee "4-5 rings".

which is why legacies shouldn't be determined by rings. If James wins 1-2 rings, he has an argument imo. Sh*t didn't happen to the MJ Bulls. Those guys were on the court in the playoffs every game every year.

[Nevaeh]

in all likelihood, he's gonna get his first ring this year. the only reason he wouldn't is cause Bosh is injured :confusedshrug:

And that'll be another set-back for him on the All-Time list. The only problem Lebron has, is he lacks a sense of "Urgency" as far as his legacy goes. You can't just assume you're gonna get back to the "Big Dance" every year of your career, and then finally "Get It Right". 27 may not seem old, but keep in mind, other teams are improving as well. Plus, no man (or his teammates) are above injury either. Last season was a Gold Mind waiting to be plundered, and he blew it.

Imagine if 91 MJ said to himself, "well, I'm in my prime so I've got plenty of time", and played like crap in the 91 Finals, got injured in 92, and maybe won one in 93? His legacy wouldn't be nearly the same.

[cteach111]

And that'll be another set-back for him on the All-Time list. The only problem Lebron has, is he lacks a sense of "Urgency" as far as his legacy goes. You can't just assume you're gonna get back to the "Big Dance" every year of your career, and then finally "Get It Right". 27 may not seem old, but keep in mind, other teams are improving as well. Plus, no man (or his teammates) are above injury either. Last season was a Gold Mind waiting to be plundered, and he blew it.

Imagine if 91 MJ said to himself, "well, I'm in my prime so I've got plenty of time", and played like crap in the 91 Finals, got injured in 92, and maybe won one in 93? His legacy wouldn't be nearly the same.

you're assuming MJ would have played like crap in 91. What if he played as well as James as right now in these playoffs and LOST? His legacy would be looked at differently if he LOST through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN...

[Nevaeh]

you're assuming MJ would have played like crap in 91. What if he played as well as James as right now in these playoffs and LOST? His legacy would be looked at differently if he LOST through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN...



My point was Lebron played like crap in the FINALS. F@ck the Playoffs for a moment. The FINALS are where you seal your legacy and a championship ring. Who the f@ck remembers the conference finals, in the grand scheme of things. Teams don't get videos made based off what they did in the early rounds of the Playoffs.

My other point was that you can't just assume that the window of opportunity will always be there. My point about MJ was "What if" he played like crap in the Finals, and let a ring get away from him?

[selrahc]

yes, and this is coming from a lebron hater

[cteach111]

My point was Lebron played like crap in the FINALS. F@ck the Playoffs for a moment. The FINALS are where you seal your legacy and a championship ring. Who the f@ck remembers the conference finals, in the grand scheme of things. Teams don't get videos made based off what they did in the early rounds of the Playoffs.

My other point was that you can't just assume that the window of opportunity will always be there. My point about MJ was "What if" he played like crap in the Finals, and let a ring get away from him?

you can't just tack on importance to one series like that or people will overrate Shaq's Finals performances. Those teams were garbage compared to what they were seeing in the West. I don't even remember who the Lakers faced in the Finals cause they were all trash.

[Nevaeh]

you can't just tack on importance to one series like that or people will overrate Shaq's Finals performances. Those teams were garbage compared to what they were seeing in the West. I don't even remember who the Lakers faced in the Finals cause they were all trash.

But you do remember them winning the Championships those years, right? That's my point. 91 Jordan would have been looked at, once again, as a flashy highlight reel, who still couldn't get over the hump. Just like Lebron is currently seen as a "stat-reel" who can't get over the hump. And time is ticking.

[tpols]

My point was Lebron played like crap in the FINALS. F@ck the Playoffs for a moment. The FINALS are where you seal your legacy and a championship ring. Who the f@ck remembers the conference finals, in the grand scheme of things. Teams don't get videos made based off what they did in the early rounds of the Playoffs.

My other point was that you can't just assume that the window of opportunity will always be there. My point about MJ was "What if" he played like crap in the Finals, and let a ring get away from him?
This is complete bullshit.. there are countless videos of players having iconic moments in all rounds of the playoffs.

MJ against the Knicks
MJ against the Cavs
Starks against the Bulls
Horry against the Kings
Shit.. Bird's career defining play, that steal off Isaih for the GW is probably his most iconic moment and it wasnt the Finals.

Playoff moments are made when theyre are great series and teams are battling tooth and nail to advance. Iconic moments happen just as often in the Conference Finals as they do in the Finals.

[cteach111]

This is complete bullshit.. there are countless videos of players having iconic moments in all rounds of the playoffs.

MJ against the Knicks
MJ against the Cavs
Starks against the Bulls
Horry against the Kings
Shit.. Bird's career defining play, that steal off Isaih for the GW is probably his most iconic moment and it wasnt the Finals.

Playoff moments are made when theyre are great series and teams are battling tooth and nail to advance. Iconic moments happen just as often in the Conference Finals as they do in the Finals.

those series are only rememebered cause he won in the end. There aren't too many cares for his exploits against the Pistons. :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

which is why legacies shouldn't be determined by rings. If James wins 1-2 rings, he has an argument imo. Sh*t didn't happen to the MJ Bulls. Those guys were on the court in the playoffs every game every year.

Sh*t did happen. Pippen got hurt in Game 6 vs Pistons in 89 and couldn't play. Pippen had migraine in Game 7 vs Pistons in 90. MJ had sprained wrist during the playoffs in 93. The Jordan Rules threatened to drive a wedge into the team during the 93 season. Harper was playing hurt in 96 Finals. Rodman got himself tossed out of countless games in 97. MJ had stomach flu during a pivotal game in 97 Finals. Pippen missed most of the year in 98 and then had a severe back injury during the last 2 games of the Finals. Also, Harper had flu in Game 7 vs Pacers in the ECF. Not to mention the front office wanted to disband the team after 1996 and that was hanging over their heads for 2 years.

Maybe you should ask yourself why those things didn't stop them from winning 6 rings. That's what determines greatness. Winning even when sh*t happens. Let's see if Lebron can win one before you say he will have an argument for best ever.

[Legends66NBA7]

Jordan had great moments in the playoffs and finals, though.

Even when his teams lost, he was putting up great overall production (for the most part).

[cteach111]

Sh*t did happen. Pippen got hurt in Game 6 vs Pistons in 89 and couldn't play. Pippen had migraine in Game 7 vs Pistons in 90. MJ had sprained wrist during the playoffs in 93. Harper was playing hurt in 96 Finals. MJ had stomach flu during a pivotal game in 97 Finals. Pippen missed most of the year in 98 and then had a severe back injury during the last 2 games of the Finals.

Maybe you should ask yourself why those things didn't stop them from winning 6 rings. That's what determines greatness. Winning even when sh*t happens. Let's see if Lebron can win one before you say he will have an argument for best ever.

my point is proven though. Those guys were still on the court and ready to play. When sh*t did happen, Jordan didn't win. Maybe the Bulls beat the Pistons in '90 if Scottie didn't have a migraine. What I do know is that whatever Jordan was doing when sh*t happened wasn't good enough.

When the support players fall, the odds of winning go out the window.

You can't hold this year against James even if you want to. There's a legitimate excuse that's staring you right in the face.

[Da_Realist]

my point is proven though. Those guys were still on the court and ready to play. When sh*t did happen, Jordan didn't win. Maybe the Bulls beat the Pistons in '90 if Scottie didn't have a migraine. What I do know is that whatever Jordan was doing when sh*t happened wasn't good enough.

When the support players fall, the odds of winning go out the window.

You can't hold this year against James even if you want to. There's a legitimate excuse that's staring you right in the face.

I'm not trying to hold anything against James this year. Looks like you are already lining up the excuses :oldlol:

I'm talking about your expectation of 4-5 rings. Stay with me.

[Da_Realist]

You can't hold this year against James even if you want to. There's a legitimate excuse that's staring you right in the face.

That needed to be quoted twice. Perfect mentality for a Lebron fan. :D

Let's see him win just once and then we can get back to it. Until then, it's just a fantasy.

[tpols]

those series are only rememebered cause he won in the end. There aren't too many cares for his exploits against the Pistons. :confusedshrug:
He won in the end but his conference semi highlights are more well documented than his winning Finals ones. What does that tell you?:confusedshrug:

And that statement isnt even correct.. Reggie and the knicks are some of the most documented highlights of the 90s and they never won shit.

[cteach111]

I'm not trying to hold anything against James this year. Looks like you are already lining up the excuses :oldlol:

I'm talking about your expectation of 4-5 rings. Stay with me.

Well, there's not much of anything you can hold against James.

1) 2010 - elbow injury, pending free agency, supporting cast
2) 2009 - SUPPORTING CAST
3) 2008 - supporting cast
4) 2007, 2006 - supporting cast
5) 2011 - horrible coach, fatigue


James played well enough to meet expectations. It's not like he ever fell below expectations. It's not like he's got Popovich or Phil Jackson on the sidelines. Jordan was garbage with Pippen. They were average as a duo until Jackson came along and got the most out of those 2. They'd look just like Wade/Lebron without Phil Jackson.

[Legends66NBA7]

Pippen had migraine in Game 7 vs Pistons in 90.

I've always thought, Bulls win that game 7 and beat the Blazers in the Finals, that would have been his greatest playoff run, IMO.


Winning even when sh*t happens. Let's see if Lebron can win one before you say he will have an argument for best ever.

:applause::cheers:

The bold should be the new slogan for those NBA commercials.

:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

Well, there's not much of anything you can hold against James.

1) 2010 - elbow injury, pending free agency, supporting cast
2) 2009 - SUPPORTING CAST
3) 2008 - supporting cast
4) 2007, 2006 - supporting cast
5) 2011 - horrible coach, fatigue


James played well enough to meet expectations. It's not like he ever fell below expectations. It's not like he's got Popovich or Phil Jackson on the sidelines. Jordan was garbage with Pippen. They were average as a duo until Jackson came along and got the most out of those 2. They'd look just like Wade/Lebron without Phil Jackson.

Pippen and Jordan were garbage and average. But Lebron is not... :oldlol:

And lol at all the excuses. If Lebron thinks like you, he'll be lucky to win even one title. Your post got "loser" written all over it.

Especially when he would have won one if he had played "average" just last year. No excuses for that.

[Nevaeh]

my point is proven though. Those guys were still on the court and ready to play. When sh*t did happen, Jordan didn't win. Maybe the Bulls beat the Pistons in '90 if Scottie didn't have a migraine. What I do know is that whatever Jordan was doing when sh*t happened wasn't good enough.

When the support players fall, the odds of winning go out the window.

You can't hold this year against James even if you want to. There's a legitimate excuse that's staring you right in the face.

But Da Realist already made that point, when he brought up Pippen's back injury during the 98 Finals. As a leader, you rise above the adversity. Plus, your point would have more merit, had the Heat been missing guys last season. All of the starters were healthy, and more than capable of winning, had their leader (yes, Lebron) showed up. He's not a virgin to pressure either, so I really don't know WTF happened in last year's Finals to him.

[Da_Realist]

But Da Realist already made that point, when he brought up Pippen's back injury during the 98 Finals. As a leader, you rise above the adversity. Plus, your point would have more merit, had the Heat been missing guys last season. All of the starters were healthy, and more than capable of winning, had their leader (yes, Lebron) showed up. He's not a virgin to pressure either, so I really don't know WTF happened in lat year's Finals to him.

Plus he missed the part where I said Pippen missed most of the regular season.

[cteach111]

But Da Realist already made that point, when he brought up Pippen's back injury during the 98 Finals. As a leader, you rise above the adversity. Plus, your point would have more merit, had the Heat been missing guys last season. All of the starters were healthy, and more than capable of winning, had their leader (yes, Lebron) showed up. He's not a virgin to pressure either, so I really don't know WTF happened in last year's Finals to him.

But that point doesn't exist. Pippen was present in every playoff game. I don't care whether his back was giving him problems. He was healthy enough to contribute for his team whereas Bosh isn't

[Nevaeh]

But that point doesn't exist. Pippen was present in every playoff game. I don't care whether his back was giving him problems. He was healthy enough to contribute for his team whereas Bosh isn't





You like skipping over points already made a lot, I see.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif/bmi_orig_img/laugh.gif
Bosh, Wade, Bron and Co. were all present and accounted for in last year's Finals. In the Finals, someone has to take the lead. Since Bron was leader in every round leading up to the Finals, it was only fitting that he "Close the Curtain" and take his team home. He didn't. And until he does, his achievements simply will not have as much "shine" on them until it happens. It's just the way it works in the world of sports, I'm afraid.

[RazorBaLade]

Well, there's not much of anything you can hold against James.

1) 2010 - elbow injury, pending free agency, supporting cast
2) 2009 - SUPPORTING CAST
3) 2008 - supporting cast
4) 2007, 2006 - supporting cast
5) 2011 - horrible coach, fatigue


James played well enough to meet expectations. It's not like he ever fell below expectations. It's not like he's got Popovich or Phil Jackson on the sidelines. Jordan was garbage with Pippen. They were average as a duo until Jackson came along and got the most out of those 2. They'd look just like Wade/Lebron without Phil Jackson.

i lold hard

[pauk]

Just close this troll attempt of a thread :facepalm

[pegasus]

Well, there's not much of anything you can hold against James.

1) 2010 - elbow injury, pending free agency, supporting cast
2) 2009 - SUPPORTING CAST
3) 2008 - supporting cast
4) 2007, 2006 - supporting cast
5) 2011 - horrible coach, fatigue


James played well enough to meet expectations. It's not like he ever fell below expectations. It's not like he's got Popovich or Phil Jackson on the sidelines. Jordan was garbage with Pippen. They were average as a duo until Jackson came along and got the most out of those 2. They'd look just like Wade/Lebron without Phil Jackson.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[pauk]

Well, there's not much of anything you can hold against James.

1) 2010 - elbow injury, pending free agency, supporting cast
2) 2009 - SUPPORTING CAST
3) 2008 - supporting cast
4) 2007, 2006 - supporting cast
5) 2011 - horrible coach, fatigue


James played well enough to meet expectations. It's not like he ever fell below expectations. It's not like he's got Popovich or Phil Jackson on the sidelines. Jordan was garbage with Pippen. They were average as a duo until Jackson came along and got the most out of those 2. They'd look just like Wade/Lebron without Phil Jackson.

Good post, dont mind the ignorant responses (Lebron haters afterall, what would you expect)