Wait... So most scientists believe in God?

[Bladers]

Oh the irony.

And yet. It is fascinating to note that atheists boast all the time that most scientists are atheists.

http://www.examiner.com/article/science-vs-religion-what-scientists-really-think-1

Smh. :facepalm

[RidonKs]

NOBODY RESPOND TO THIS POST SO HELP ME GOD

[Black Joker]

NOBODY RESPOND TO THIS POST SO HELP ME GOD
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4k04yB9Ea1r79k32.gif

[-p.tiddy-]

…In the course of her research, Ecklund surveyed nearly 1,700 scientists and interviewed 275 of them.

She finds that most of what we believe about the faith lives of elite scientists is wrong.

Nearly 50 percent of them are religious. Many others are what she calls "spiritual entrepreneurs," seeking creative ways to work with the tensions between science and faith outside the constraints of traditional religion…Only a small minority are actively hostile to religion…


if a blader's thread ever deserved attention in is this one IMO...this is interesting I think, much better than "evolution is wrong" lol

I saw a special a few years back on Discovery Channel about how most scientists are not athiests...it revolved around the fact that they have no answer to what caused the big bang, as one scientist put it, "the math breaks once we try to explain what caused the bang bang"...


also lots of talks about the likeliness of other planes and dementions being very likely...

[Abd El-Krim]

examiner.com needs to die.

[CelticBaller]

NOBODY RESPOND TO THIS POST SO HELP ME GOD
http://ano.lolcathost.org/thumbs//1311635939268.gif

[Stuckey]

they dont refute God's existence but cannot conclude either way

abandoning thread

[RidonKs]

u all suck

[Randy]

poop lol

[-p.tiddy-]

http://youtu.be/1te01rfEF0g

Interesting presentation by Neil DeGrasse Tyson about how throughout history great scientists have used God to explain a problem they cannot solve.

Think somewhere in there he mentions something like 85-90 percent of elite scientists don't believe in a personal god.
yes, I've watched that entire thing before...

IMO there is only ONE question when it comes to these debates, and that is "how did anything come to exist"

every other question can or could eventually be explained by science I bet...with the exception of maybe being able to explain our consciousness, science is still clueless on that one and that could be part of the link.

it's that one question that keeps many scientists thiests...

[Scholar]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1738398_o.gif

[-p.tiddy-]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1738398_o.gif
:oldlol:


I don't know why that's so funny but it is

[sunsfan1357]

Leave it to pt to manage to sucker someone into discussing an issue :lol

[-p.tiddy-]

Leave it to pt to manage to sucker someone into discussing an issue :lol
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FgpshdZIdPQ/TzfQUsWtM6I/AAAAAAAAAuU/rhNfLt9mQ88/s1600/jack-nicholson-nodding.gif

[Bladers]

So they can't refute my assertions, so they resort to belittle my character with junk one lined remarks.

[DonDadda59]

NOBODY RESPOND TO THIS POST SO HELP ME GOD

http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp80/alienwaltz/grandpa-simpson.gif

[Is He Ill]

They can't refute my assertions but belittle my character with junk one lined remarks.

Your assertions are meaningless.

[RidonKs]

and his character's just so goddamn easy to belittle

[LBJMVP]

cause scientist study the universe and all kinds of matter throughout it and see how complex it is.


they know that things don't just form that way out of luck... it just so happens that every thing formed in the perfect way possible to support a whole universe?


some may not believe in the same god religions do, but a lot agree their is a higher power.

[miller-time]

i love the line from the article "They then boast that scientific findings lend weight to atheism (whatever that means)."

haha, whatever that means? they made up the claim then say "whatever that means." what a ridiculous article. seriously, some of the stuff bladders finds is amazing trivial or awful.

[Bladers]

i love the line from the article "They then boast that scientific findings lend weight to atheism (whatever that means)."

haha, whatever that means? they made up the claim then say "whatever that means." what a ridiculous article. seriously, some of the stuff bladders finds is amazing trivial or awful.

Your line of thinking is getting old and lame.

It was funny 2 years ago. But now it reeks of gross ignorance.

The entire premise of atheism and guys like richard dawkins and his minions is to spoon feed us that science is in opposition to the idea of a creator of any sort.

[Randy]

http://static.tumblr.com/crw0vck/IPYlz2tmn/sexyjack.gif

[miller-time]

Your line of thinking is getting old and lame.

It was funny 2 years ago. But now it reeks of gross ignorance.

The entire premise of atheism and guys like richard dawkins and his minions is to spoon feed us that science is in opposition to the idea of a creator of any sort.

:rant how dare you insult richard dawkins. he is the truth and the way.

[-p.tiddy-]

cause scientist study the universe and all kinds of matter throughout it and see how complex it is.


they know that things don't just form that way out of luck... it just so happens that every thing formed in the perfect way possible to support a whole universe?


some may not believe in the same god religions do, but a lot agree their is a higher power.
yes, I agree with this...it is too much of a coincidence for me as well as them

[-p.tiddy-]

i love the line from the article "They then boast that scientific findings lend weight to atheism (whatever that means)."

haha, whatever that means? they made up the claim then say "whatever that means." what a ridiculous article. seriously, some of the stuff bladders finds is amazing trivial or awful.
If the survey is real and not made up then that is interesting to me...

[-p.tiddy-]

Coincidence...sometimes I feel like the only person who gets that even the most minute of odds given an infinite amount of chances to occur will eventually occur. It's just math.
well, if there are an infinite amount of universes out there I could see that...but I only know of this one

like the article claims though, most scientists don't feel that it is "just math"

[RidonKs]

the only point that needs to be made here is this:

even if we agree that _______ had to have _______'ed for the universe to have begun, as a consequence of answering the something-from-nothing argument... you're still speculating out your ass as soon as you try to fill in either of those blanks. nobody in the world has any more honest evidence to fill in those two blanks than anybody else because this shit is unanswerable. the noun is unknown and the verb is unknown.

so i ask: wtf is the point of having the conversation? if you're only trying to prove without a measure of doubt that something began everything, well i'm sure most people will either grant you that premise or simply ignore you. probably why so many 'scientists' call themselves 'theists', if that's even true, my quotations are there for a reason. but coming to define that ______ is when the bs trigger of any scientist worth their salt, with even a semblance of understanding regarding their method, will go off.

most theist vs atheist debates do not revolve around 'something from nothing'. they debate specific details that are offered up by either side, grounded in nothing more than speculation.



well shit i think i just added fuel to a fire i already tried to put out

[-p.tiddy-]

the only point that needs to be made here is this:

even if we agree that _______ had to have _______'ed for the universe to have begun, as a consequence of answering the something-from-nothing argument... you're still speculating out your ass as soon as you try to fill in either of those blanks. nobody in the world has any more honest evidence to fill in those two blanks than anybody else because this shit is unanswerable. the noun is unknown and the verb is unknown.

so i ask: wtf is the point of having the conversation? if you're only trying to prove without a measure of doubt that something began everything, well i'm sure most people will either grant you that premise or simply ignore you. probably why so many 'scientists' call themselves 'theists', if that's even true, my quotations are there for a reason. but coming to define that ______ is when the bs trigger of any scientist worth their salt, with even a semblance of understanding regarding their method, will go off.
it is the ulitimate question...and it will likely never be answered...

you can't blame humans for trying discuss "wow, how the hell do I exist?"

it would be strange if we weren't in a constant quest to answer that...

most theist vs atheist debates do not revolve around 'something from nothing'. they debate specific details that are offered up by either side, grounded in nothing more than speculation.
you're right, most are just athiests poking fun at the Bible...


well shit i think i just added fuel to a fire i already tried to put out
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls1nw4fbAI1qc14q0.gif

[-p.tiddy-]

Even if the universe is finite as some people assert, it is still INCOMPREHENSIBLY GIGANTIC. An event with tiny, tiny, MINUSCULE odds given a gigantic, potentially infinite window to occur is probably going to occur at some point. Imagine a die with a trillion sides. What are the odds that it will land on any specific side? Well, one in a trillion I suppose. But if you have an infinite amount of rolls over and an infinite amount of time, it's probably eventually going to land on that side.
it doesn't matter how big it is if there is only one...the same laws apply to the entire thing...

what a coincidence that we have:

-light
-time
-gravity (wow, thank goodness for that one)
-3 dimensions
-etc

how lucky us this wasn't a 2 dimensional universe without light and gravity, stuck in time...

anyway, to me this reaks of design, but I know I will never convince anyone

[RidonKs]

it is the ulitimate question...and it will likely never be answered...

you can't blame humans for trying discuss "wow, how the hell do I exist?"

it would be strange if we weren't in a constant quest to answer that...
its the jump from "how do i exist?" to "how does everything exist?" that i don't understand

why make that jump? i get why human beings would be curious about the origins of the universe, but that has little to do with existential angst. we have firm scientific grounding for why we, as in each individual human, exists... how we came to be... the process that lead to our species... recorded history... family trees... etc, etc, etc.

why do i have to be able to trace my origins back 13.5 billion years ago in order to understand where i came from? it just seems strange when even digesting that sort of time frame accurately is a near impossibility for a human being with an ~85 year lifespan



its an understandable yet nevertheless confounding obsession that we have with something common sense should tell us straight up is unanswerable

[RidonKs]

You appear to have completely missed the point.
more than that, this whole "isn't it lucky" argument is just silly. we're only able to say that we're lucky... because we're already here. if we happened to be not so lucky, we might just be a different sort of entity commenting on how lucky we were. or nothing would exist. but either way, the resultant 'life' of a given set of circumstances gets to inevitably call themselves lucky whether shit was made for them or not.

[-p.tiddy-]

its the jump from "how do i exist?" to "how does everything exist?" that i don't understand

why make that jump? i get why human beings would be curious about the origins of the universe, but that has little to do with existential angst. we have firm scientific grounding for why we, as in each individual human, exists... how we came to be... the process that lead to our species... recorded history... family trees... etc, etc, etc.

why do i have to be able to trace my origins back 13.5 billion years ago in order to understand where i came from? it just seems strange when even digesting that sort of time frame accurately is a near impossibility for a human being with an ~85 year lifespan



its an understandable yet nevertheless confounding obsession that we have with something common sense should tell us straight up is unanswerable
because that is the end of the road...

if science proves that living cells form on their own here (I bet that happens some day) then there will still be people claiming that "God" created the needed eliments for life to start...

but yes, it is unasweable...common sense should tell me and that this debate is pointless, it is still interesting to talk about though...

[-p.tiddy-]

You appear to have completely missed the point.
I didn't miss your point at all...I think you missed mine though

[miller-time]

If the survey is real and not made up then that is interesting to me...

why? if every scientist believed in god or none of them did, how is that relevant to whether it is true? it doesn't matter if they are scientists or artists, belief on faith has no relevance to truth. ken miller and francis collins are both practicing catholics yet are respected in the scientific field. religion and science are mutually exclusive endeavors.

i mean come on, the article is tripe. it makes a reference to a survey saying something about scientists being more divided about religious beliefs than "atheists" claim. overlooking the fact that they are generalizing what atheists believe.

the only time i bring up atheist scientists or academics is when you hear the biblical quote "the fool hath said in his heart: there is no god" but apart from that it is irrelevant.

[-p.tiddy-]

more than that, this whole "isn't it lucky" argument is just silly. we're only able to say that we're lucky... because we're already here. if we happened to be not so lucky, we might just be a different sort of entity commenting on how lucky we were. or nothing would exist. but either way, the resultant 'life' of a given set of circumstances gets to inevitably call themselves lucky whether shit was made for them or not.
it isn't silly at all donks, it is the reason most scientist are thiests

[RidonKs]

it isn't silly at all donks, it is the reason most scientist are thiests
oh shit! you're completely right, i dunno how i forgot about that. nevermind i take back everything i said, the scientists have shown me whats up



because that is the end of the road...
no, its merely more searching for purpose when nothing in your immediate life offers you any

[-p.tiddy-]

why? if every scientist believed in god or none of them did, how is that relevant to whether it is true? it doesn't matter if they are scientists or artists, belief on faith has no relevance to truth. ken miller and francis collins are both practicing catholics yet are respected in the scientific field. religion and science are mutually exclusive endeavors.

i mean come on, the article is tripe. it makes a reference to a survey saying something about scientists being more divided about religious beliefs than "atheists" claim. overlooking the fact that they are generalizing what atheists believe.

the only time i bring up atheist scientists or academics is when you hear the biblical quote "the fool hath said in his heart: there is no god" but apart from that it is irrelevant.
it isn't relevant to the truth...you're right

I find it fascinating because most athiests not only think the opposite but they consider themselves to be logical ones that use science as their basis

well here we see that most actual scientists feel it is most logical that the universe was designed...that is interesting IMO

[RoseCity07]

Believing in god has nothing to do with religion. You can believe in god and have no idea what god is.

[miller-time]

it isn't relevant to the truth...you're right

I find it fascinating because most athiests not only think the opposite but they consider themselves to be logical ones that use science as their basis

well here we see that most actual scientists feel it is most logical that the universe was designed...that is interesting IMO

here is the breakdown of the survey


34% were atheist (12% of which also call themselves spiritual), 30% were agnostic, 27% had some belief in God (9% have doubts but affirm their belief, 5% have occasional belief, 8% believe in a higher power that is not a personal God), and 9% of scientists said they had no doubt of God's existence. While more atheistic than the rest of the U.S. population, the research demonstrates that about a third (36%) of these scientists maintain some belief in God, a considerably smaller proportion than the approximately 90% in the general American population.

nice majority.

[-p.tiddy-]

no, its merely more searching for purpose when nothing in your immediate life offers you any
no...just no

this is something that almost every human searches for...those who feel pupose and those who don't

[-p.tiddy-]

here is the breakdown of the survey



nice majority.
that's strange...it doesn't even touch on religion and the article said 'nearly 50 percent were religious"...and then many more "spiritual"...etc


first time I have heard the term 'Spiritual Athiest'...how is that not just an "agnostic" ?

some of these terms just mean the same thing...lol

[RidonKs]

no...just no

this is something that almost every human searches for...those who feel pupose and those who don't
you think its just a random itch people like to scratch? like deciding on their favourite colour?

no, there's an underlying common source of the itch. the source of that itch is overwhelmingly a yearning to understand purpose, meaning, value, (fill in the synonym)... and on a cosmic scale, because life with all of its intricacies and struggles, just doesn't seem that consequential

[miller-time]

that's strange...it doesn't even touch on religion and the article said 'nearly 50 percent were religious"...and then many more "spiritual"...etc


first time I have heard the term 'Spiritual Athiest'...how is that not just an "agnostic" ?

some of these terms just mean the same thing...lol

i don't know. i'm assuming they don't believe in god but probably identify in some notion of oneness with the universe. a lot of scientists like carl sagan and neil degrass tyson talk poetically about our relationship with the universe while not strictly adhering to any supernatural beliefs. sprituality in this case is more of an emotional response to the universe itself as opposed to some transcendent being.

[-p.tiddy-]

you think its just a random itch people like to scratch? like deciding on their favourite colour?

no, there's an underlying common source of the itch. the source of that itch is overwhelmingly a yearning to understand purpose, meaning, value, (fill in the synonym)... and on a cosmic scale, because life with all of its intricacies and struggles, just doesn't seem that consequential
Okay I agree with this

I thought you were trying to say that only people who feel no purpose in life wonder about this question...

although I feel like life is very consequential...

[-p.tiddy-]

i don't know. i'm assuming they don't believe in god but probably identify in some notion of oneness with the universe. a lot of scientists like carl sagan and neil degrass tyson talk poetically about our relationship with the universe while not strictly adhering to any supernatural beliefs. sprituality in this case is more of an emotional response to the universe itself as opposed to some transcendent being.
I think that the word 'athiest" has really just transformed into meaning "anti-religion"...even though that is not the true meaning

so when they say "spiritual-athiest" they are saying they believe in a higher power, just not relgious


that is just my guess

[miller-time]

I think that the word 'athiest" has really just transformed into meaning "anti-religion"...even though that is not the true meaning

so when they say "spiritual-athiest" they are saying they believe in a higher power, just not relgious


that is just my guess

if they believed in a higher power they wouldn't be atheists, spiritual ones or not. they aren't talking about higher powers. if they were they would be considered deists.

ask yourself though, would you be happier if they did mean they believed in a nondescript higher power? because it seems like it'd be more convenient for you to believe that they believe in higher powers because it would support your world view that there is some type of underlying purpose and intent behind the universe - and we are all striving to find such a thing.

[Kungfro]

yes, I've watched that entire thing before...

IMO there is only ONE question when it comes to these debates, and that is "how did anything come to exist"

every other question can or could eventually be explained by science I bet...with the exception of maybe being able to explain our consciousness, science is still clueless on that one and that could be part of the link.

it's that one question that keeps many scientists thiests...

Isn't that kind of the whole point of that vid though? He brings up the fact that many great minds often turned to intelligent design at the limits of their knowledge, at which point they were unable to make any further advancements. By accepting intelligent design you've essentially given up on trying to answer those questions.

[Bladers]

:rant how dare you insult richard dawkins. he is the truth and the way.

I'm not surprised. He got your hoodwinked like jim jones. Won't be phased if your had convulsions while reading his book.

[tpols]

it doesn't matter how big it is if there is only one...the same laws apply to the entire thing...

what a coincidence that we have:

-light
-time
-gravity (wow, thank goodness for that one)
-3 dimensions
-etc

how lucky us this wasn't a 2 dimensional universe without light and gravity, stuck in time...

anyway, to me this reaks of design, but I know I will never convince anyone
Everything's relative.

If we were living in 5D with things more sophisticated than light and gravity you'd be looking back saying thank god were not stuck in 3D with only light and gravity. We would get used to any situation we were put in over millions of years dealing with it and having our physical forms adapt.. and it would be all we know just like right now.

[-p.tiddy-]

Everything's relative.

If we were living in 5D with things more sophisticated than light and gravity you'd be looking back saying thank god were not stuck in 3D with only light and gravity. We would get used to any situation we were put in over millions of years dealing with it and having our physical forms adapt.. and it would be all we know just like right now.
eh, perhaps...I see your point but I don't think it holds as much weight as you...

in string theory there is a 5th demension...and there is no life there

like I said to Shannon (I don't think he got it) if there were an infinite amount of universes (maybe most of them don't have gravity/light/time/etc thus no life) then I could see that it is a given that one would be lucky enough to have everything it takes...but if this is infact the only universe, I think it is extremely coincidental that we just happen to get all the right laws of science for life to exist here...time/light/gravity/etc...

[-p.tiddy-]

if they believed in a higher power they wouldn't be atheists, spiritual ones or not. they aren't talking about higher powers. if they were they would be considered deists.

ask yourself though, would you be happier if they did mean they believed in a nondescript higher power? because it seems like it'd be more convenient for you to believe that they believe in higher powers because it would support your world view that there is some type of underlying purpose and intent behind the universe - and we are all striving to find such a thing.
I don't know of another way of looking at "spiritual" without thinking that we don't have an actual "spirit"

What they believe is irrrevant I suppose...

I guess it is more fun for all of us that the world's smartest minds are all completely split on this though...:D ...wouldn't be much to debate if everyone only saw it one way...

[tpols]

eh, perhaps...I see your point but I don't think it holds as much weight as you...

in string theory there is a 5th demension...and there is no life there

like I said to Shannon (I don't think he got it) if there were an infinite amount of universes (maybe most of them don't have gravity/light/time/etc thus no life) then I could see that it is a given that one would be lucky enough to have everything it takes...but if this is infact the only universe, I think it is extremely coincidental that we just happen to get all the right laws of science for life to exist here...time/light/gravity/etc...
I dont really believe in string theory or any of that bullshit. Thats pretty much completely made up with no observable proof.

The conditions for life are the conditions for life. It's not like we would be experiencing a world without these conditions for life because.. we wouldnt be alive.

[-p.tiddy-]

The conditions for life are the conditions for life. It's not like we would be experiencing a world without these conditions for life because..we wouldnt be alive.
yes, exactly

we live in a unverse that just happens to have all the proper scientific laws to support our existance...and that list is long

That 9% of scientists that say "they are 100% positive of a creator" probably see as I do...that it is the only possible explaination, the only thing that makes any sense...the alternative is that we just appeared out of nothing.



anyway, I'm going to call it night, been down this road too many times in here lol

[miller-time]

I don't know of another way of looking at "spiritual" without thinking that we don't have an actual "spirit"

spiritual is a pretty broad term, going off of what i've seen popular scientists say about it it seems more like they mean it in a poetic or emotional sense rather than a literal belief that there is a soul. however i'm sure there are some who do believe in souls or a common life force (but not god).

anyway back to the original point, you said the majority of scientists are theists and that is plain wrong.


it isn't silly at all donks, it is the reason most scientist are thiests

if majority means largest single group then those are atheists. most scientists from that study lie somewhere between atheist (majority), agnostic, and deist. not theist.

[-p.tiddy-]

spiritual is a pretty broad term, going off of what i've seen popular scientists say about it it seems more like they mean it in a poetic or emotional sense rather than a literal belief that there is a soul. however i'm sure there are some who do believe in souls or a common life force (but not god).

anyway back to the original point, you said the majority of scientists are theists and that is plain wrong.



if majority means largest single group then those are atheists. most scientists from that study lie somewhere between atheist (majority), agnostic, and deist. not theist.
I was assuming that the article posted in the OP was telling the truth...lol

that article said that near 50% were religious PLUS many that were just spiritual...

the break down you posted still shows that majority are open to intelligent design, apparently many of the athiests somehow.

34% athiest...with many of those being "spirtiual athiests"...the rest are "other"



it doesn't matter though either way

[miller-time]

the break down you posted still shows that majority are open to intelligent design, apparently many of the athiests somehow.

i'm not sure what you mean by that. everyone should be open to it, atheism doesn't mean you close your mind off to anything related to god, it just means the person doesn't currently see any reason to believe in such a thing.

[-p.tiddy-]

i'm not sure what you mean by that. everyone should be open to it, atheism doesn't mean you close your mind off to anything related to god, it just means the person doesn't currently see any reason to believe in such a thing.
it's true defintion is not that...what you just described is agnostic


Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4][5] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[6][7] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[7][8]



but you're right, like I said earlier that term has really just transformed into meaning "anti-religion"

[-p.tiddy-]

Or you could look at it as life developed to conform to the laws that were in place. Not that the laws just happen to be right for life.






http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/10959/1245228550_jack_nicholson.gif


Is it weird that I don't want there to be a god? Not just that I don't believe in a creator but that I'd prefer there not to be one. Much more interesting that way to me. Though it would be fvckin nuts if there was one.
all I know is that you win the Jack gif contest :applause:

[miller-time]

it's true defintion is not that...what you just described is agnostic





but you're right, like I said earlier that term has really just transformed into meaning "anti-religion"

technically what i described was agnostic atheism or weak atheism. atheism and agnosticism aren't on the same continuum. you can be an agnostic theist too if you like.

atheism doesn't mean anti-theism or anti-religion (it might mean that to you but that doesn't make what your are saying right). you can believe in god and be anti-religious if you like.

i honestly don't get you sometimes. you have these definitions and beliefs that are all slightly askew. you have your own set of facts about crime and religion, and religions ability to be a supplement for traditional mental health care and family counseling. but none of them are right, or if they are right they are moot points. religion might be beneficial for some people, but there are better ways to help them than to sell them a lie.

i honestly think you've made up some type of weird pantheist belief system in your mind where subjective opinions matter and information and data is secondary. you never defend any of your facts you just move on to the next point, you never criticize or delve into any of your NDE case stories, you just take everything as read.

[miller-time]

I think most people tend to think of Atheism as a belief that there is no god, Agnostic, a lack of belief or unwillingness to make a decision, and theism, a belief that there is a god, and that to me seems the simplest and most logical way to categorize it. I especially don't like Atheism being defined as not believing in a god, or rejection of belief, because that describes very few people who describe themselves as Atheist. Or at the very least contradicts their behavior.

no. atheism/theism are positions regarding belief. agnosticism is a position regarding knowledge.

http://www.noforbiddenquestions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/agnostic-diagram11.png

agnosticism is not some fence sitting position in the middle. it deals with an entirely different problem.

[Quizno]

jesus christ i was reading this page and somehow knew primetime would come in and start to debate the definition of atheism :oldlol:

[miller-time]

jesus christ i was reading this page and somehow knew primetime would come in and start to debate the definition of atheism :oldlol:

haha yeah i've debated him several times in the past about it. but i'm sick and bored so i've got to find something to do lol.

[miller-time]

I know what the dictionary definitions are, but dictionary definitions aren't worth shit when they contradict the popular usage of the terms. That was my whole point. What I said is how they should be defined, because that's how people generally use them, and that is what makes the most amount of sense.

yeah but then it becomes all muddled and no one can really make any formal statement about anything. it also means that we need to come up with new words to replace the ones that already explain an existing concept. just because people use the word agnosticism inappropriately doesn't mean the original concept of the word no longer exists.

[Kews1]

http://i47.tinypic.com/wkh3pt.jpg

[brantonli]

eh, perhaps...I see your point but I don't think it holds as much weight as you...

in string theory there is a 5th demension...and there is no life there

like I said to Shannon (I don't think he got it) if there were an infinite amount of universes (maybe most of them don't have gravity/light/time/etc thus no life) then I could see that it is a given that one would be lucky enough to have everything it takes...but if this is infact the only universe, I think it is extremely coincidental that we just happen to get all the right laws of science for life to exist here...time/light/gravity/etc...

If you like arguing abut the amazingness of dimension and time, you definitely should have a look Flatland. I know there's a new one (from 2007) but my teacher showed us a very old one which is fascinating. It depicts the life of a circle, who lives in 2D, and suddenly one day something that he cannot comprehend (a sphere) waltz into his life and takes him on a tour of 3D world.

[Take Your Lumps]

yes, I've watched that entire thing before...

IMO there is only ONE question when it comes to these debates, and that is "how did anything come to exist"

every other question can or could eventually be explained by science I bet...with the exception of maybe being able to explain our consciousness, science is still clueless on that one and that could be part of the link.

it's that one question that keeps many scientists thiests...

The same question is posed by skeptics with respect to the concept of gods. "How did a god come to exist"? "And how did whatever created that god come to exist"? "And..."

That rabbit hole goes as deep as you want it to go. Some people are only comfortable with sticking their head in for a peek and calling it a day.

[Jailblazers7]

That is so f*cking stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc

[Take Your Lumps]

It is raining outside and there is a puddle that has formed in a hole in the street.

The hole inexplicably fits around the water absolutely perfectly! A little too perfectly.

Therefore, the hole must have been created with that water in mind.

[IcanzIIravor]

It is raining outside and there is a puddle that has formed in a hole in the street.

The hole inexplicably fits around the water absolutely perfectly! A little too perfectly.

Therefore, the hole must have been created with that water in mind.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

Well said though :D

[Take Your Lumps]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

Well said though :D

I'm aware it's not a perfect analogy lol - I'm just trying to illustrate how intellectually dishonest it is to claim that this universe must have a divine creator because all of the laws of physics just happen to be "perfect" in our universe when we only have a sample size of *1* goddamn universe.

What if we, oh I don't know, hold off on making absolute claims about the origins of the cosmos until we have enough hard data to back them up?

Novel idea, I know. :)

[IcanzIIravor]

I'm aware it's not a perfect analogy lol - I'm just trying to illustrate how intellectually dishonest it is to claim that this universe must have a divine creator because all of the laws of physics just happen to be "perfect" in our universe when we only have a sample size of *1* goddamn universe.

What if we, oh I don't know, hold off on making absolute claims about the origins of the cosmos until we have enough hard data to back them up?

Novel idea, I know. :)

I really just wanted to post that gif :oldlol:

I am not at all surprised that a number of scientist believe in the possible existence of a God. They are scientist because they are able to separate such a belief from carrying out their work as scientist. Considering the vast majority of the world believes in some type of supreme being I don't see this as an 'I gotcha atheists!' moment.

[Nanners]

I'm aware it's not a perfect analogy lol - I'm just trying to illustrate how intellectually dishonest it is to claim that this universe must have a divine creator because all of the laws of physics just happen to be "perfect" in our universe when we only have a sample size of *1* goddamn universe.

What if we, oh I don't know, hold off on making absolute claims about the origins of the cosmos until we have enough hard data to back them up?

Novel idea, I know. :)

not to mention that even within our own world, the conditions required to support life can vary greatly.

humans like to live on the surface where the conditions are just perfect for us (gravity, oxygen, water, etc). on the other hand, there are microorganisms that live thousands of feet underwater, under immense pressure in zero light conditions, and survive by harvesting energy from undersea ocean vents.

the "perfect conditions for life" depend entirely on what organism we are talking about. there is a very wide range of areas with "perfect conditions" (deserts, undersea ocean vents, the high atmosphere....) on this planet alone.

i work for a living as a scientist and i would classify my own beliefs as agnostic, not athiest. that said you have to be pretty dense to think the universe was designed so that it would be perfect for life.

[LBJMVP]

it doesn't matter how big it is if there is only one...the same laws apply to the entire thing...

what a coincidence that we have:

-light
-time
-gravity (wow, thank goodness for that one)
-3 dimensions
-etc

how lucky us this wasn't a 2 dimensional universe without light and gravity, stuck in time...

anyway, to me this reaks of design, but I know I will never convince anyone

it really does reak of design.

everything in the universe works according the exact same laws. every single thing that we know... i find it hard to believe that happened out of chance.

our atmosphere is the perfect size, our planet is the perfect size, we are located the perfect distance from the sun, moon is the perfect size

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water

:wtf: just works to perfectly to me.

our brain works by absolute crazy design... so complex... not to mention DNA:wtf:


our universe all works the same design always. we always rotate the same way at the speed, the speed of light is the same everywhere in the universe, gravity is consisent.


"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."


sorry, shit just works to perfectly for me to believe it happened by chance. even if evolution is true, it was put into effect by a creator. we are way to complex as humans and animals.

there isn't even a species remotely close to how smart we are... and don't say monkeys there arent even close

[LBJMVP]

It is raining outside and there is a puddle that has formed in a hole in the street.

The hole inexplicably fits around the water absolutely perfectly! A little too perfectly.

Therefore, the hole must have been created with that water in mind.


terrible metaphor.

[IcanzIIravor]

terrible metaphor.

Who made the designer then? If enough elements come together something is bound to happen.

If we eventually discover another planet that can sustain life, will that too be a part of the design? Are you basing it on thinking there is no way there can be other planets with life on them?

[LBJMVP]

Who made the designer then? If enough elements come together something is bound to happen.

If we eventually discover another planet that can sustain life, will that too be a part of the design? Are you basing it on thinking there is no way there can be other planets with life on them?


i dont know who made the designer. what a stupid question to ask :lol


if elements come together, yes something is bound to happen. by the compositions and they way they combine to make stars, galaxies, planets, in a perfect way is really bizarre.


their may be life on other planets, but if you really think its gonna be super intelligent life then i belive you are wrong. it will be little microorganisms somthing like that. then we will likely find out that this planet has been around for a billion years and nothing has evolved which will in turn lead to more questions about how the hell it happened on earth.

we doubt we are finding life in my lifetime, so i'm not even gonna worry about it.

[tpols]

. we are way to complex as humans and animals.

Thats what happens when our bodies undgoe trillions of slight genetic mutations over billions of years based on the environments we physically grow up in.. our bodies specifically have been making these microscopic adjustments for a million+ years and because you arent able to understand perfectly how all of these changes were coordinated, you want to dismiss it as God did it.

And I believe in God and some higher being.. that argument is just dumb though.

[IcanzIIravor]

i dont know who made the designer. what a stupid question to ask :lol


if elements come together, yes something is bound to happen. by the compositions and they way they combine to make stars, galaxies, planets, in a perfect way is really bizarre.


their may be life on other planets, but if you really think its gonna be super intelligent life then i belive you are wrong. it will be little microorganisms somthing like that. then we will likely find out that this planet has been around for a billion years and nothing has evolved which will in turn lead to more questions about how the hell it happened on earth.

we doubt we are finding life in my lifetime, so i'm not even gonna worry about it.

How is it a stupid question? Are you going with the whole 'God has always existed out of time' bit so it is immaterial to seek such knowledge? As someone who believes in a designer do you think he/she/it is actively engaged now or do you think they started it all and have stepped back to see how it all plays out?

[LBJMVP]

It's all so perfect!


that really didnt prove anthing.... one his points is the we are always looking for food and a crocodile can eat a chicken a month.

well excuse me if i think it is much better that i eat everyday and to support a body that needs tons of energy to support itself. i enjoy eating and im sure most people would hate it if they only ate once a month.... food taste good.


early earth had to go through all that destruction to form craters for oceans, and even make our landscape beautiful, even to form an atmosphere. go made sure that us as humans were able to figure out how everything worked so he had to make everything work according to those laws.

if we didnt have tornadoes, hurricanes, and tsunami's, then everything wouldnt be working according to the same laws and it would screw something else up.

his statement that 90% percent of living things have died? yeah way to through in statistics from early earth if you enjoy god rescueing us from living with dinosaurs im sorry... when is the last time a catastrophic event wiped out man?

that black plaque which was humans fault for being disgusting pigs?

i could literally argue with him on every point he made.

[LBJMVP]

How is it a stupid question? Are you going with the whole 'God has always existed out of time' bit so it is immaterial to seek such knowledge? As someone who believes in a designer do you think he/she/it is actively engaged now or do you think they started it all and have stepped back to see how it all plays out?


i dont even want to think about it really. we can date back the big bang, but who is to say the universe isn't 100 billion years old.

i have no way of answering you question, and you have no way in answering how the universe started off from nothing.

those arguments should never be used in a religious argument. because you can say who made god, but i will just say who made the big bang?

it to complex for our minds to handle, and im sure that just the way its suppose to be.

[DonDadda59]

i dont know who made the designer. what a stupid question to ask :lol

Actually, it's the perfect question to ask (and is always 'answered' with a cop out).

Your assertion is that the universe, in particular our existence, could not possibly have occurred by chance but by intelligent design. "Too perfect" is the term you used to describe our existence, if I'm not mistaken.

So by your logic... if a being/entity exists that is capable of conjuring our "too perfect" existence out of his magic wand or whatever mechanism he/she/it employs... doesn't it stand to reason that something/someone else must've created that "too perfect" being? And something/someone else must have created that creator's creator and so on in perpetuity.

You must agree, no?

Also, Ridonks is gonna be maaaaaaaad :(

[-p.tiddy-]

It is raining outside and there is a puddle that has formed in a hole in the street.

The hole inexplicably fits around the water absolutely perfectly! A little too perfectly.

Therefore, the hole must have been created with that water in mind.
wha? :oldlol:

worst anaolgy EVER

[LBJMVP]

I would love to see you debate Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

i can debate anyone on anything. im a debating king, trust me. i wont let some *** like neil degrasse tyson beat me... call him up, show him this post and whoever the loser of the debate is dies.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc
this video has been posted in here a dozen times...

so since there is alot of poisnous gas out there it is a horrible design?

IMO it isn't the placement of things that feel designed, the universe is still chaos...it is the laws of science that feel designed...they are exactly what we need for our existance

It is like a creator put the perfect ingredients (laws) into an explosion (big bang) knowing that life would form in many places...the gas in other areas means nothing (lucky for us the entire universe wasn't that gas though)

[LBJMVP]

The distance to other stars is so great the likelihood of finding life anytime soon would be small. I have no idea how you could think there is no other advanced life in the galaxy/universe considering how big it is. Also considering life on this planet is made of the most abundant elements in the universe.

And mathematically if we did find an alien civilization it would probably be far more advanced based on the age of the universe and how recently humans have developed.

Think about if there was an alien civilization that had similar intelligence to us but had a 100 year head start. Think about how much more advanced we will be in 100 years. Now what about a million years or so head start.


you seriously think that they evolution track would exactly match ours?

even if they are 1000 years more advanced their environment could have evolved them all into retarded fish frogs.

[RidonKs]

well excuse me if i think it is much better that i eat everyday and to support a body that needs tons of energy to support itself. i enjoy eating and im sure most people would hate it if they only ate once a month.... food taste good.
:roll:

[IcanzIIravor]

i dont even want to think about it really. we can date back the big bang, but who is to say the universe isn't 100 billion years old.

i have no way of answering you question, and you have no way in answering how the universe started off from nothing.

those arguments should never be used in a religious argument. because you can say who made god, but i will just say who made the big bang?

it to complex for our minds to handle, and im sure that just the way its suppose to be.

That's just it though. Using the scientific approach you don't start with 'I know who did it', which is what intelligent design people start off with. The Big Bang theory starts off with 'My theory is that this happened, now let me go about proving or disproving my theory.' Can you envision as a true believer the possibility that you could be wrong in what you believe and have the presence of mind to discard this belief? Religion is based on a feeling and faith and is not anchored with the need to have it proved. That is why religion is one of man's best and worst inventions.

[-p.tiddy-]

Actually, it's the perfect question to ask (and is always 'answered' with a cop out).

Your assertion is that the universe, in particular our existence, could not possibly have occurred by chance but by intelligent design. "Too perfect" is the term you used to describe our existence, if I'm not mistaken.

So by your logic... if a being/entity exists that is capable of conjuring our "too perfect" existence out of his magic wand or whatever mechanism he/she/it employs... doesn't it stand to reason that something/someone else must've created that "too perfect" being? And something/someone else must have created that creator's creator and so on in perpetuity.

You must agree, no?

Also, Ridonks is gonna be maaaaaaaad :(
that's a whole different science book though...beyond us (so is our own existance)

a plane where time doesn't exist...nor 3 demensions...it isn't in our normal frame of thought

[LBJMVP]

Actually, it's the perfect question to ask (and is always 'answered' with a cop out).

Your assertion is that the universe, in particular our existence, could not possibly have occurred by chance but by intelligent design. "Too perfect" is the term you used to describe our existence, if I'm not mistaken.

So by your logic... if a being/entity exists that is capable of conjuring our "too perfect" existence out of his magic wand or whatever mechanism he/she/it employs... doesn't it stand to reason that something/someone else must've created that "too perfect" being? And something/someone else must have created that creator's creator and so on in perpetuity.

You must agree, no?

Also, Ridonks is gonna be maaaaaaaad :(

athiests cop out when the same question is asked. how was the big bang created from nothing? nothing like that has ever happened and is impossible.

every athiest answer... "how was god created from nothing"

my answer "i can't answer that, im sorry. it is way to complex for our minds to know"

athiest answer "told you, god doesn't exist"

my answer "well you never really answe..."

athiest "shut up, god doesnt exist, somthing can't come from nothing"

[-p.tiddy-]

That's just it though. Using the scientific approach you don't start with 'I know who did it', which is what intelligent design people start off with. The Big Bang theory starts off with 'My theory is that this happened, now let me go about proving or disproving my theory.' Can you envision as a true believer the possibility that you could be wrong in what you believe and have the presence of mind to discard this belief? Religion is based on a feeling and faith and is not anchored with the need to have it proved. That is why religion is one of man's best and worst inventions.
that's religion though...

I don't claim to know who "did it"...my theory is that the big bang happened (probably repeats infinitly) and it reeks of design...and many scientists agree with that

[IcanzIIravor]

that's a whole different science book though...beyond us (so is our own existance)

a plane where time doesn't exist...nor 3 demensions...it isn't in our normal frame of thought

http://ohellnawlblog.com/newohnblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ani_wtf_cube.gif

[Jailblazers7]

his statement that 90% percent of living things have died? yeah way to through in statistics from early earth if you enjoy god rescueing us from living with dinosaurs im sorry... when is the last time a catastrophic event wiped out man?

I think the last time that happened was when God decided he wanted a do-over so he drowned everyone on the planet.

[LBJMVP]

That's just it though. Using the scientific approach you don't start with 'I know who did it', which is what intelligent design people start off with. The Big Bang theory starts off with 'My theory is that this happened, now let me go about proving or disproving my theory.' Can you envision as a true believer the possibility that you could be wrong in what you believe and have the presence of mind to discard this belief? Religion is based on a feeling and faith and is not anchored with the need to have it proved. That is why religion is one of man's best and worst inventions.


i can't tell you that i believe in a possibility where God was not involved in creating the universe, sorry.

as for how it happened. i can't answer that question, and it is a question that isn't meant to be answered, and im sure it never will be.

until we die of course.

[LBJMVP]

I think the last time that happened was when God decided he wanted a do-over so he drowned everyone on the planet.


it all depends on if you take the all of the old testament as fact. some of the stories are meant to be fables.

i don't believe there ever was a flood that drowned everyone.
im pretty sure there was a huge flood at one point in the middle east that killed a lot of people though.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://ohellnawlblog.com/newohnblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ani_wtf_cube.gif



lol


JACK...supposed to use JACK

[DonDadda59]

athiests cop out when the same question is asked. how was the big bang created from nothing? nothing like that has ever happened and is impossible.

every athiest answer... "how was god created from nothing"

my answer "i can't answer that, im sorry. it is way to complex for our minds to know"

athiest answer "told you, god doesn't exist"

my answer "well you never really answe..."

athiest "shut up, god doesnt exist, somthing can't come from nothing"

Yeah... there's plenty of scientists working on answering that as we speak, the LHC project being the most visible/high profile. So I don't see how people pouring billions and countless hours into research is a 'cop out'.

A real cop out is someone (not naming names) saying 'Well nothing can exist if it wasn't created' and then bullshitting their way around a simple question like 'Well, if nothing can exist without a creator... then who created the creator?'.

This is basic logic, YOUR logic. It's much more simple than funding and collecting/deciphering millions of data readings from an advanced particle smasher. Just a simple question- If God didn't have a creator... how is it possible that he exists?

I'm going to catch up on the latest Game of Thrones episode now, I'll check back here in a bit to see how well you can follow through on your own logical assertions.

[dunksby]

it all depends on if you take the all of the old testament as fact. some of the stories are meant to be fables.

i don't believe there ever was a flood that drowned everyone.
im pretty sure there was a huge flood at one point in the middle east that killed a lot of people though.
:roll: :roll:

The 2010 Pakistan floods began in late July 2010, resulting from heavy monsoon rains in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Sindh, Punjab and Balochistan regions of Pakistan and affected the Indus River basin. Approximately one-fifth of Pakistan's total land area was underwater, approximately 796,095 square kilometres (307,374 sq mi).[3][4][5] According to Pakistani government data the floods directly affected about 20 million people, mostly by destruction of property, livelihood and infrastructure, with a death toll of close to 2,000.[1]

[-p.tiddy-]

the creation of other dimensions is beyond us because they go by a different science book...like I said perhaps things like time, 3D space, etc don't exist

perhaps those planes will make perfect sense once we see them..."if" we see them



stick with trying to explain our own existance before trying to explain a dimension I know nothing about

[IcanzIIravor]

If god created this universe I could see that, alright cool. But then he made another universe for us to go to when we die? Cmon God let me get some peace.

Basically we're currently in Wal-Mart and you know Wal-Mart takes anyone. What the goal is, is that you want to move up to Target, but if you **** up your ass is going to K-Mart. Everyone knows Target is in, but some sumbitches for some reason get all nostalgic and want to go to K-mart. Now there are some loons who say 'Screw Target or Wal-mart! I'm going to the mom and pop store!' Who the hell wants to go to a mom and pops store? Do I need to inquisition your ass? It's either Target or K-Mart and if you ask why then you are a fool. Is it not better to strive to go to Target? I mean if all there is, is Wal-Mart, so what, but if Target exists....wouldn't you like to go to Target? All the cool people will be shopping there.

[IcanzIIravor]

the creation of other dimensions is beyond us because they go by a different science book...like I said perhaps things like time, 3D space, etc don't exist

perhaps those planes will make perfect sense once we see them..."if" we see them



stick with trying to explain our own existance before trying to explain a dimension I know nothing about

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/14/tumblr_l5z1oxTvDN1qzgjfco1_500.gif

What different science book?

[-p.tiddy-]

Basically we're currently in Wal-Mart and you know Wal-Mart takes anyone. What the goal is, is that you want to move up to Target, but if you **** up your ass is going to K-Mart. Everyone knows Target is in, but some sumbitches for some reason get all nostalgic and want to go to K-mart. Now there are some loons who say 'Screw Target or Wal-mart! I'm going to the mom and pop store!' Who the hell wants to go to a mom and pops store? Do I need to inquisition your ass? It's either Target or K-Mart and if you ask why then you are a fool. Is it not better to strive to go to Target? I mean if all there is, is Wal-Mart, so what, but if Target exists....wouldn't you like to go to Target? All the cool people will be shopping there.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kwjw5qVTPu1qa1xnko1_500.gif

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/14/tumblr_l5z1oxTvDN1qzgjfco1_500.gif

What different science book?
the one that Target uses

we are using the Walmart book :oldlol:

[IcanzIIravor]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kwjw5qVTPu1qa1xnko1_500.gif

:oldlol: well played :cheers:

[LBJMVP]

Yeah... there's plenty of scientists working on answering that as we speak, the LHC project being the most visible/high profile. So I don't see how people pouring billions and countless hours into research is a 'cop out'.

A real cop out is someone (not naming names) saying 'Well nothing can exist if it wasn't created' and then bullshitting their way around a simple question like 'Well, if nothing can exist without a creator... then who created the creator?'.

This is basic logic, YOUR logic. It's much more simple than funding and collecting/deciphering millions of data readings from an advanced particle smasher. Just a simple question- If God didn't have a creator... how is it possible that he exists?

I'm going to catch up on the latest Game of Thrones episode now, I'll check back here in a bit to see how well you can follow through on your own logical assertions.


not really a cop out... can you explain to me how something can appear out of nothing?

you can ask all you want how god was created then, and i will keep telling you i have no idea, and i can keep asking you how the universe began and you will continue saying i have no idea.


scientist can spend all the money they want to figure out how the universe created itself out of nothing, they aren't gonna find shit.

[IcanzIIravor]

not really a cop out... can you explain to me how something can appear out of nothing?

you can ask all you want how god was created then, and i will keep telling you i have no idea, and i can keep asking you how the universe began and you will continue saying i have no idea.


scientist can spend all the money they want to figure out how the universe created itself out of nothing, they aren't gonna find shit.

Not everyone can go on blind faith. I like to seek knowledge and answers. I am more agnostic than atheist, but I just can't not go on the blind faith of 'It just is.' Growing up and as a technician there was always and will always be the question to me of 'Who? What? When? Where? and Why?' Most likely it won't be answered before I kick the bucket, but I don't see why one shouldn't ask such questions. Blind faith can certainly be comforting, but I don't mind being uncomfortable.

[tpols]

not really a cop out... can you explain to me how something can appear out of nothing?

Thats what everyone is asking you.. Did God appear out of nothing? You say you dont know and that that question is too deep for us to know.

So why would we trust you with our original question(how WE got here) if you cant answer the one that logically follows from your answer(and is the same question pretty much)?

[LBJMVP]

Thats what everyone is asking you.. Did God appear out of nothing? You say you dont know and that that question is too deep for us to know.

So why would we trust you with our original question(how WE got here) if you cant answer the one that logically follows from your answer(and is the same question pretty much)?


way to only quote that one part.


i answered your question by saying i had no idea, and once again asked you the same question in return.

how did the universe form our of nothing, but you answered that question by pushing the same thing back on me.

that is why that arguement can't be used. it just goes back and forth back and forth.

how did the universe form from nothing... i dont know, how did god form from nothing. i dont know, how but the universe can't form from nothing. well yeah, but god can't form from nothing.... and so on and so on.

these question will never be answered.

[DonDadda59]

not really a cop out... can you explain to me how something can appear out of nothing?

That's what I'm trying to figure out :oldlol:

Nothing in this Universe can exist without a creator... so God either appeared out of 'nothing' (which as you've shown us is impossible) or something/something created him/her/it, and before that something/someone created God's creator, and so on and so forth indefinitely.


you can ask all you want how god was created then, and i will keep telling you i have no idea, and i can keep asking you how the universe began and you will continue saying i have no idea.


scientist can spend all the money they want to figure out how the universe created itself out of nothing, they aren't gonna find shit.

And thank God(s) that there have always existed people in this world who thought the opposite of your ignorant, close-minded mentality. If everyone throughout History thought as you did, we'd still be living in caves (no offense to Al Qeada). Just because YOU don't have the mental capacity to conceive something, doesn't mean it can't be done. Hell if we were having this conversation just 200 years ago and I told you that man would walk on the moon, or we'd be able to talk to one another thousands of miles apart, you'd say the same thing you just said above.

The LHC has already discovered 2 never before seen particles, both of which bolster the standard model. It's not inconceivable that in our lifetime we will see a detailed data map not only of the origins of our universe, but new technologies that will change our future. What we know about our universe/existence/etc and the technology available will be DRASTICALLY different in just 50 years.

Ignorance is the ultimate cop out. :cheers:

For your erudition (http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/04/30/large-hadron-collider-discovers-beautiful-new-particle/)

[tpols]

way to only quote that one part.


i answered your question by saying i had no idea, and once again asked you the same question in return.

how did the universe form our of nothing, but you answered that question by pushing the same thing back on me.

that is why that arguement can't be used. it just goes back and forth back and forth.

how did the universe form from nothing... i dont know, how did god form from nothing. i dont know, how but the universe can't form from nothing. well yeah, but god can't form from nothing.... and so on and so on.

these question will never be answered.
They probably wont.. but youll piss people off that spend their whole lives at least TRYING to find an answer when you use such a simplistic viewpoint like in your earlier posts.

[LBJMVP]

They probably wont.. but youll piss people off that spend their whole lives at least TRYING to find an answer when you use such a simplistic viewpoint like in your earlier posts.

im sorry if its simple but that is the only answer both sides have... a simple one.

i believe there was a creator

athiest believe it just happened.

thats as simple as it gets.

[LBJMVP]

That's what I'm trying to figure out :oldlol:

Nothing in this Universe can exist without a creator... so God either appeared out of 'nothing' (which as you've shown us is impossible) or something/something created him/her/it, and before that something/someone created God's creator, and so on and so forth indefinitely.



And thank God(s) that there have always existed people in this world who thought the opposite of your ignorant, close-minded mentality. If everyone throughout History thought as you did, we'd still be living in caves (no offense to Al Qeada). Just because YOU don't have the mental capacity to conceive something, doesn't mean it can't be done. Hell if we were having this conversation just 200 years ago and I told you that man would walk on the moon, or we'd be able to talk to one another thousands of miles apart, you'd say the same thing you just said above.

The LHC has already discovered 2 never before seen particles, both of which bolster the standard model. It's not inconceivable that in our lifetime we will see a detailed data map not only of the origins of our universe, but new technologies that will change our future. What we know about our universe/existence/etc and the technology available will be DRASTICALLY different in just 50 years.

Ignorance is the ultimate cop out. :cheers:

For your erudition (http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/04/30/large-hadron-collider-discovers-beautiful-new-particle/)


i could call you ignorant as well...

you have no reasonable explanation of the universe.

my only explanation is that god will give me the answers to these question when i die.


as for the bolded part... thats funny since every early civilazation believed in god or gods.

[DonDadda59]

as for the bolded part... thats funny since every early civilazation believed in god or gods.

Oh yeah? And which particular god or gods do you believe in?

[LBJMVP]

Oh yeah? And which particular god or gods do you believe in?


christianity.

which is the same god as the Jewish faith, and the same god as the Islamic faith.

[IcanzIIravor]

Oh yeah? And which particular god or gods do you believe in?

As a follow up to this, given the fact that the Christian/Judaic God is a relatively young God/religion given human history, shouldn't a believer in intelligent design believe solely in man's earliest belief in a higher power as those first believers would inherently know best given you go on faith? Basically given this context wouldn't man's earliest belief be the correct one?

[DonDadda59]

christianity.

which is the same god as the Jewish faith, and the same god as the Islamic faith.

But different from earlier civilizations like say the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and other 'Pagan' societies (even though Christianity is RIFE with Pagan conventions, for obvious reasons). What makes your God the one true God who created everything? What led you to that conclusion that he/she/it was the one who meticulously crafted this "too perfect" world?

[DonDadda59]

As a follow up to this, given the fact that the Christian/Judaic God is a relatively young God/religion given human history, shouldn't a believer in intelligent design believe solely in man's earliest belief in a higher power as those first believers would inherently know best given you go on faith? Basically given this context wouldn't man's earliest belief be the correct one?

Where you been? The Earth is only 6,000 years old. There was NOTHING before that except the creator chilling in a vaccum reading a whole different science book.

[LBJMVP]

But different from earlier civilizations like say the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and other 'Pagan' societies (even though Christianity is RIFE with Pagan conventions, for obvious reasons). What makes your God the one true God who created everything? What led you to that conclusion that he/she/it was the one who meticulously crafted this "too perfect" world?

faith....

[IcanzIIravor]

Where you been? The Earth is only 6,000 years old. There was NOTHING before that except the creator chilling in a vaccum reading a whole different science book.

Before we go further..are we the APA or the Rock n Sock Connection. I know some will won't the Four Horsemen, but that's a bit blasphemous in this type of thread.

[LBJMVP]

As a follow up to this, given the fact that the Christian/Judaic God is a relatively young God/religion given human history, shouldn't a believer in intelligent design believe solely in man's earliest belief in a higher power as those first believers would inherently know best given you go on faith? Basically given this context wouldn't man's earliest belief be the correct one?


no.

i wouldn't really call it young.
there weren't even any real civilizations until like 6,000 b.c. and Christianity dates all the way back until then.

[DonDadda59]

faith....

Is this the same sort of faith that Greeks had that Zeus was the cause of lightning or that Apollo was responsible for the Sun's movement or that Poseidon controlled the tides? I mean, sooner or later through man's enterprising and blasphemous scientific endeavors we figured out that the Gods weren't behind these phenomena after all but of course this is a completely different scenario we're discussing here right?

And just to prod a little deeper. Please tell me how your faith steered you into the direction of Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah and not to say Lord Xenu or Krishna. What was it about the Judeo-Christian version of the cosmic play that led you to so deeply and devoutly believe?


Before we go further..are we the APA or the Rock n Sock Connection. I know some will won't the Four Horsemen, but that's a bit blasphemous in this type of thread.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Rock_and_sock_connection1.jpg

I call Rocky :D

[IcanzIIravor]

no.

i wouldn't really call it young.
there weren't even any real civilizations until like 6,000 b.c. and Christianity dates all the way back until then.

Explain yourself, young man. You think belief in God's only came about around 6000 b.c? Surely you jest. Outside of animism and shamanism Hinduism predates the Jewish/Christian faith by a wide margin. Have you compared the teachings of Zoroaster to the Jewish faith and just how eerily similar so much of it is?

[Velocirap31]

no.

i wouldn't really call it young.
there weren't even any real civilizations until like 6,000 b.c. and Christianity dates all the way back until then.

Really? I thought Christianity began with Jesus in 10-20 B.C. or whatever. 6000 b.c. would have involved Sumerian religion, then Greek, then Roman, then Egyptian, etc. I guess since Christianity just ripped off these religions and changed a few names, it sort of did begin a lot earlier. If there were plagiarism laws and patents like there are today, Christianity would owe a fortune.

[IcanzIIravor]

Is this the same sort of faith that Greeks had that Zeus was the cause of lightning or that Apollo was responsible for the Sun's movement or that Poseidon controlled the tides? I mean, sooner or later through man's enterprising and blasphemous scientific endeavors we figured out that the Gods weren't behind these phenomena after all but of course this is a completely different scenario we're discussing here right?

And just to prod a little deeper. Please tell me how your faith steered you into the direction of Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah and not to say Lord Xenu or Krishna. What was it about the Judeo-Christian version of the cosmic play that led you to so deeply and devoutly believe?



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Rock_and_sock_connection1.jpg

I call Rocky :D

Bout to drop some sweet shin music up in this thread then hit em with socko for good measure.

I thought lbjMVP had a raw deal in the WWE too.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.bvbuzz.com/media/2010/12/mvp.jpg

This is my faith face.

[LBJMVP]

Is this the same sort of faith that Greeks had that Zeus was the cause of lightning or that Apollo was responsible for the Sun's movement or that Poseidon controlled the tides? I mean, sooner or later through man's enterprising and blasphemous scientific endeavors we figured out that the Gods weren't behind these phenomena after all but of course this is a completely different scenario we're discussing here right?

And just to prod a little deeper. Please tell me how your faith steered you into the direction of Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah and not to say Lord Xenu or Krishna. What was it about the Judeo-Christian version of the cosmic play that led you to so deeply and devoutly believe?





because first off i believe there is a creator.

i dont believe there is a god for every single thing on earth like the greeks or romans.

the bible is all based on historical facts.
the old testament i think is a lot of fables though.

most of the greek and roman shit are stories and haven't even been proven true. i mean they talk about finding cyclops on earth, gods coming to earth and having sex with people and the gods living on mount olympus. all of which can be proven untrue.

the only time in the christian religion that god came down was in the form of jesus. and there are alot of documents that proove jesus was a real person.

there is a reason that the romans converted to Christianity instead of continuing believing in there thousands of gods.


christianity, judaism, and islam and the basically the only religions left around the world that date back to 6000 b.c.

you still got buddhism, and im sure some tribes in the rainforest have some weird shit.


im not your typical christian. i dont believe you have to go to church and i think alot of the traditions the church has were made up along the way.

like confession, where you tell the priest your sins and he makes you say hail mary over and over, and the body and blood of christ thing is just weird.
i'm sure jesus said that, but i dont think he was being 100% serious and was just giving a cool speech. catholics teach that you are seriously eating jesus and drinking his blood?
my parents are catholic, but i've always thought that one was weird

why can't i just tell god my sins? why do i have to go to church to show my faith in god? why do i have to eat jesus and drink his blood?

religion makes things way to much about tradition, and not enough about just being a good person and respecting everyone and showing you faith in god.

[IcanzIIravor]

because first off i believe there is a creator.

i dont believe there is a god for every single thing on earth like the greeks or romans.

the bible is all based on historical facts.
the old testament i think is a lot of fables though.

most of the greek and roman shit are stories and haven't even been proven true. i mean they talk about finding cyclops on earth, gods coming to earth and having sex with people and the gods living on mount olympus. all of which can be proven untrue.

the only time in the christian religion that god came down was in the form of jesus. and there are alot of documents that proove jesus was a real person.

there is a reason that the romans converted to Christianity instead of continuing believing in there thousands of gods.


christianity, judaism, and islam and the basically the only religions left around the world that date back to 6000 b.c.

you still got buddhism, and im sure some tribes in the rainforest have some weird shit.


im not your typical christian. i dont believe you have to go to church and i think alot of the traditions the church has were made up along the way.

like confession, where you tell the priest your sins and he makes you say hail mary over and over, and the body and blood of christ thing is just weird.
i'm sure jesus said that, but i dont think he was being 100% serious and was just giving a cool speech. catholics teach that you are seriously eating jesus and drinking his blood?
my parents are catholic, but i've always thought that one was weird

why can't i just tell god my sins? why do i have to go to church to show my faith in god? why do i have to eat jesus and drink his blood?

religion makes things way to much about tradition, and not enough about just being a good person and respecting everyone and showing you faith in god.

You sound more new age than Christian. You see you are questioning your religion. You're asking why and I don't think it is fully dawning on you. I've no problem with you believing in a higher power. I simply ask why someone can't seek greater understand of why they believe what they believe. Think about it. Prior to the reformation you would be called a heretic, tortured and burned, hanged or beheaded for even the few questions you asked in just this post. Time's they are a changing. Hell scientist believe in a higher power. It's a new day, man.

[LBJMVP]

You sound more new age than Christian. You see you are questioning your religion. You're asking why and I don't think it is fully dawning on you. I've no problem with you believing in a higher power. I simply ask why someone can't seek greater understand of why they believe what they believe. Think about it. Prior to the reformation you would be called a heretic, tortured and burned, hanged or beheaded for even the few questions you asked in just this post. Time's they are a changing. Hell scientist believe in a higher power. It's a new day, man.


because i still believe in christianity, but just not all the traditions that the church gives it. some of the bible may even be flawed since i know the church chose what to put in it.

i don't believe go said some of those "if you have sex before marriage, you die"
"if you gay, you die"

i think that was just put in there by chruch officials.

i belive in the same god the christians, jews, and islams believe in. i just do it in a different way.

[DonDadda59]

because first off i believe there is a creator.

i dont believe there is a god for every single thing on earth like the greeks or romans.

the bible is all based on historical facts.
the old testament i think is a lot of fables though.

So the 'historical facts' in the new testament are more believable than the fables in the old testament?


most of the greek and roman shit are stories and haven't even been proven true. i mean they talk about finding cyclops on earth, gods coming to earth and having sex with people and the gods living on mount olympus. all of which can be proven untrue.

So Gods coming to Earth to impregnate women in Pagan religion= proven untrue. But God coming to Earth to impregnate a woman so she can give birth to himself in human form= historical fact?

Story checks out I guess.



the only time in the christian religion that god came down was in the form of jesus. and there are alot of documents that proove jesus was a real person.

Nah son.


there is a reason that the romans converted to Christianity instead of continuing believing in there thousands of gods.


The reason being that Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.


christianity, judaism, and islam and the basically the only religions left around the world that date back to 6000 b.c.

Heavens, no :oldlol:


you still got buddhism, and im sure some tribes in the rainforest have some weird shit.

Plenty of weird rainforest shit to go around, if you're into that sort of thing.


im not your typical christian. i dont believe you have to go to church and i think alot of the traditions the church has were made up along the way.

like confession, where you tell the priest your sins and he makes you say hail mary over and over, and the body and blood of christ thing is just weird.
i'm sure jesus said that, but i dont think he was being 100% serious and was just giving a cool speech. catholics teach that you are seriously eating jesus and drinking his blood?
my parents are catholic, but i've always thought that one was weird

why can't i just tell god my sins? why do i have to go to church to show my faith in god? why do i have to eat jesus and drink his blood?

religion makes things way to much about tradition, and not enough about just being a good person and respecting everyone and showing you faith in god.

Too much to dissect in the above paragraph. Maybe you should consult your priest and discuss these issues with him.

[RidonKs]

you still got buddhism, and im sure some tribes in the rainforest have some weird shit.
:lol this guy is great

[LBJMVP]

So the 'historical facts' in the new testament are more believable than the fables in the old testament?

yes...

So Gods coming to Earth to impregnate women in Pagan religion= proven untrue. But God coming to Earth to impregnate a woman so she can give birth to himself in human form= historical fact?

Story checks out I guess.

can't explain everything... he is called god for a reason. i was just saying that in greek religion the gods came down and literally had sex with people, god didnt have sex with mary, he just impregnated her.





The reason being that Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.

because he was converted,



Heavens, no :oldlol:



Plenty of weird rainforest shit to go around, if you're into that sort of thing.

like 90% of the population who have a religion, believe in the same god

Too much to dissect in the above paragraph. Maybe you should consult your priest and discuss these issues with him.


i could argue this with you forever, but neither one of us will win.

[Velocirap31]

I really hate this mentality so many people have. "I can't comprehend it, therefore it must be the work of God." It's so shallow. It's like people forgot that's how they used to rationalize thunder and the changing of the seasons. And people are still doing it today.

True. I think a lot of believers today mainly fear death and the promise of an eternal afterlife seems too good to pass up. Most probably rationalize that they have nothing to lose by believing in God and a lot to lose by not believing in him (hell, purgatory, etc.). I think the whole idea is of heaven is a nice thought, but even religious people have a hard time really believing in it.

[IcanzIIravor]

because i still believe in christianity, but just not all the traditions that the church gives it. some of the bible may even be flawed since i know the church chose what to put in it.

i don't believe go said some of those "if you have sex before marriage, you die"
"if you gay, you die"

i think that was just put in there by chruch officials.

i belive in the same god the christians, jews, and islams believe in. i just do it in a different way.

That's some new age stuff home-skillet. How can you be a Christian and not believe the Bible is the word of God?

http://robus.info/static/2011/11/UfiYoTGkgE.gif

Sounds like you just believe in a higher power and you are hesitant to make the full break from Christianity because you want to believe there is future with Target and not say Walgreen's or Sam's Club.

[DonDadda59]

can't explain everything... he is called god for a reason. i was just saying that in greek religion the gods came down and literally had sex with people, god didnt have sex with mary, he just impregnated her.

All I'm saying is- when Zeus does it, you're a playa hater. God does it, all of a sudden it's justified historical fact.

And how do you know Jehovah didn't bury his heavenly bone in Mary's backyard? Being that he's a God and all, technically she'd still be a virgin, sort of like Catholic school girls and ****.


i could argue this with you forever, but neither one of us will win.

I can argue for a few minutes and systematically break down every single one of your arguments and beliefs, but since it's a Holiday I say enjoy the sunshine that the great Apollo has guided with his chariot on high :cheers:

[LBJMVP]

That's some new age stuff home-skillet. How can you be a Christian and not believe the Bible is the word of God?

http://robus.info/static/2011/11/UfiYoTGkgE.gif

Sounds like you just believe in a higher power and you are hesitant to make the full break from Christianity because you want to believe there is future with Target and not say Walgreen's or Sam's Club.


because i know that the church chose what to put in the bible.

how is god, the all loving god that he is, gonna tell people to straight up murder people for sinning? doesn't make sense with the rest of the religion.

still believe in the same god as them, but the traditions in the church are wierd, i believe God said it is wrong to be gay... but i refuse to believe he wants us to go out and kill gay people?

[LBJMVP]

I can argue for a few minutes and systematically break down every single one of your arguments and beliefs, but since it's a Holiday I say enjoy the sunshine that the great Apollo has guided with his chariot on high :cheers:


i could do the same...

may beelzebub be with you. :cheers: :cheers:

[Velocirap31]

most of the greek and roman shit are stories and haven't even been proven true. i mean they talk about finding aliens on earth, aliens coming to earth and having sex with people and the aliens living on mount olympus.

Fixed.

Whatever.

[DonDadda59]

i could do the same...

http://www.shootingusa.com/TV_SCHEDULE/SHOW_25-13/25-13-03.gif

Then do it :pimp:

[Parasite]

Why is it easier to believe that a creator just came to be and made everything then the universe doing just that, coming into existence of it's own...

[LJJ]

way to only quote that one part.


i answered your question by saying i had no idea, and once again asked you the same question in return.

how did the universe form our of nothing, but you answered that question by pushing the same thing back on me.

that is why that arguement can't be used. it just goes back and forth back and forth.

how did the universe form from nothing... i dont know, how did god form from nothing. i dont know, how but the universe can't form from nothing. well yeah, but god can't form from nothing.... and so on and so on.

these question will never be answered.

Actually, something can form out of nothing. The thing is, so we don't exactly know what started the big bang and the known universe, that is still no excuse to make illogical leaps conceptualizing it.

If you really do want to explain the start of the universe, you could just say "the laws and rules in which the universe exist are eternal". Sure, it means you have to except eternity, which is an impossible concept to us and can't truly be scientifically explained. But it's more simpler than adding a so called supreme personal god as another variable. "the laws and rules in which the universe exist were created by god, who is exist out of time". And thus a more preferable answer if you take an occam's razor approach. God is a nonsensical addition to the beginning of the universe.

Why add a completely nonsensical variable? Because you want it to be true. But it is nonsense, make no mistake.

[Take Your Lumps]

no.

i wouldn't really call it young.
there weren't even any real civilizations until like 6,000 b.c. and Christianity dates all the way back until then.

Agricultural civilizations have been around for at least 10,000 years.

What exactly do you mean by "Christianity dates back all the way back until then"?

[Take Your Lumps]

Maybe, maybe not. Surely we are not at the end of our understanding of the universe. The things we already know about the universe is mind blowing to me.

It baffles me that evolved primates know what they know about the cosmos and have even succeeded in *leaving* a planet that does everything in its power to ****ing kill you while you try to escape its gravity and atmosphere.

If there were someone/something watching us, you'd think the bastard could at least come around and muster up a "nice job". :oldlol:

[sunsfan1357]

One day I look at this thread and its everyone posting funny gifs warning each other to abandon thread. I look the next day and its turned into the same old debate ISH always has.

Bladers wins again.

[Bladers]

Lol I like how atheist like Don use the LhC as support for the universe being created from nothing.Yet the entire premise of the project itself proves otherwise. They are trying to recreate the big bang by taking pre-existing elements and colliding them together at vast speeds. Which is exactly the point of how "something can't come from nothing" especially a vast elegant universe

[Parasite]

Lol I like how atheist like Don use the LhC as support for the universe being created from nothing.Yet the entire premise of the project itself proves otherwise. They are trying to recreate the big bang by taking pre-existing elements and colliding them together at vast speeds. Which is exactly the point of how "something can't come from nothing" especially a vast elegant universe

Where did god come from? Did he just happen to come from nothing and be all knowing? Makes even less sense...

[sunsfan1357]

As long as we don't debate Bladers we're OK.


Lol I like how atheist like Don use the LhC as support for the universe being created from nothing.Yet the entire premise of the project itself proves otherwise. They are trying to recreate the big bang by taking pre-existing elements and colliding them together at vast speeds. Which is exactly the point of how "something can't come from nothing" especially a vast elegant universe


Where did god come from? Did he just happen to come from nothing and be all knowing? Makes even less sense...

Someone didn't take your advice :lol

[Bladers]

Where did god come from? Did he just happen to come from nothing and be all knowing? Makes even less sense...

Isn't that what you say about the universe aswell?

Think about it. We know little about the universe that we would know if we fast forward to maybe year 3000.

If whatever created our known universe or what ever pre-existed it is eternal which you are about to argue and LJJ is arguing.

Isn't the universe also all powerful aka omnipotent? Like look around you.

Isn't it also omni-present? You can't escape it, you do exist "within" the universe.

Isn't it also all knowing aka omni-science? doesn't it contain the knowledge of the past, present and possibly future? Enabling time travel, so on and so forth?

Come on now. whether you call it some elaborate name or god. Its the same thing.

We know so little about the universe. Its just darn stupid when people make such definite statements today.

[LBJMVP]

Why is it easier to believe that a creator just came to be and made everything then the universe doing just that, coming into existence of it's own...

neither one of them makes very much sense, but it's just the way it is.

we will all figure out what happened when we move on to the next life and it will all make sense then.

[Take Your Lumps]

We know so little about the universe. Its just darn stupid when people make such definite statements today.

Troll level: Asian

[CelticBaller]

of course they believe in me


http://www.comedycentral.com/images/tosh_vertical/tumblr/Tosh529_FaceFade_v2.gif
you guys disappoint me

[Lebron23]

Bladers is a douche bag. This troll is not even a real Christian. Go back to your hole. Kobe already reported you to the Police Officers. His maid caught you stealing and smelling Mr. Bryant's underwear.