Is Anyone Still Sleeping On Manu Ginobili?

[WillyJakk]

Just curious,

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2012/02/Manu-Ginobili-Spurs-chat-20120211-306x367.jpg

Is anyone still sleeping on Manu?

Dude is so cot damn crafty and smooth w/ the ball, had Harden and Sefalosha on skates ALL NIGHT LONG.

The guy is a true threat on every single spot on the floor, not too many players you can say that about.

[Velocirap31]

24 points and that was his season high. Not that great.

[WillyJakk]

24 points and that was his season high. Not that great.

:coleman:

26

[Batz]

No one slept on him ... ?

[Velocirap31]

:coleman:

26

My bad, I was way off.

[ihoopallday]

24 points and that was his season high. Not that great.

Great players step up when it matters.

[elementally morale]

She is.

http://ballerwives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Manu-Ginobili-Wife-Marianela-Orono1.jpg

[IGotACoolStory]

Manu :applause:

Anyone have nekkid pictures of her?

[Batz]

Lovely girl.

Still wanna know who doubted Manu, so we can kill that person.

[LABean]

No one slept on him ... ?
This. Wtf are you talking about, OP? :wtf:

[guy]

She is.

http://ballerwives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Manu-Ginobili-Wife-Marianela-Orono1.jpg

Looks like Michael Corleone :oldlol:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Why sleep on Gino when you can sleep with him?

[AngelEyes]

24 points and that was his season high. Not that great.

26

26



26

26

26

It was 26!!!!!!!! How could you be so foolish?!!!! What is wrong with you!!! You bastard!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WillyJakk]

This. Wtf are you talking about, OP? :wtf:

My bad cuzzo.

I'm talking about this thread I made over a month ago that stirred up quite the debate (here's the OP from that thread):

Why Is Manu So Underrated? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260216)

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NO6dza7Wfy0/TGJAVLadyjI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9Xmkcgui5_E/s1600/p1.manu.jpg
Manu Ginobili: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
http://www.jumpusa.com/dribble.jpg
Dwyane Wade: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
http://blog.imgacademies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jerrywestdriving.jpg
Jerry West: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/07/clyde-poster.jpg
Clyde Drexler: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html)

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

[SuperPippen]

My bad cuzzo.

I'm talking about this thread I made over a month ago that stirred up quite the debate (here's the OP from that thread):

Why Is Manu So Underrated? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260216)

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NO6dza7Wfy0/TGJAVLadyjI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9Xmkcgui5_E/s1600/p1.manu.jpg
Manu Ginobili: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
http://www.jumpusa.com/dribble.jpg
Dwyane Wade: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
http://blog.imgacademies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jerrywestdriving.jpg
Jerry West: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/07/clyde-poster.jpg
Clyde Drexler: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html)

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

No, there absolutely is not.

[Pearleojam]

I love Manu & i hope he brings a new Olimpic medal for Argentina!

[Kblaze8855]

People have to stop acting like Manu is news every time he has a good game. Hes a multi time all star who was one of the 2-3 best players on a few title runs. Him having 20 something points is barely even news worthy. Its not like...a dumb thing to discuss because he did play well in an important game. But cmon...

I was on here 10 years ago with people saying he was the European Kobe before he got to the NBA. Topic must have been 200 posts and this was back when there might only be 10-20 people on at a time.

People were calling him better than Tmac in 04 and 05....

On here calling him top 3 at his position all time by like 08 ranking him over the likes of Jerry West, Wade, and so on.

Hes a great 6th man who goes off now and then.

On one of the more well known teams of the last decade.

He is not unknown and everyone is well aware of what he can do.

Just so happens hes not doing a lot as often as he used to so hes not as discussed. As was mentioned...this was his season high game.

Hes not gonna be talked about daily when more often than not he has 9 quiet points and 2 nice passes while the spurs win by being 10 deep.

[elementally morale]

I argued back in 2004-2005 that Manu is a better player than Tracy McGrady. Would not have beaten him one on one, but as a team player and thinking of basketball as a team sport, while also considering their respective contracts, etc.

I was told (to be) a few things back then...

[red1]

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.
Ginobili is a good shooting guard but d-wade>

[vinsane01]

I think manu is a type of player who is satisfied with minimal statistical contribution as long as it benefits the team as a whole. He has that win at all cost attitude. Im sure he can increase his production if really wanted to but it may had impeded progress and team chemistry as a downside. At times however, when the team is struggling and needs someone to step up, he can provide the needed boost. Just like we've seen today.

[Shepseskaf]

People have always sold him short. I know I have. He's just a killer who knows how to win. Doesn't have to pile up points, but he'll do all the little things to help his team.

And he's Mr. Clutch.

[SuperPippen]

Ginobili is a good shooting guard but Jerry West, d-wade>

Fixed.

[red1]

Fixed.
Let's be real here for a second, as far as SGs go, it's gonna end up being Jordan, Kobe, and Wade in that order

[Batz]

Let's be real here for a second, as far as SGs go, it's gonna end up being Jordan, Kobe, and Wade in that order
Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade.

Unless your that GengisKhan kid...

[SuperPippen]

Let's be real here for a second, as far as SGs go, it's gonna end up being Jordan, Kobe, and Wade in that order

Possibly. If Wade is able to stave off his decline for a few more years and win a another chip or two, than yes.

At this point in time, the top 3 remains Jordan, Kobe, and West, in that order. I don't know if I'd put Manu in the top 15 SG's ever.

[red1]

Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade.

Unless your that GengisKhan kid...
nah, I think the original was fine

[SuperPippen]

nah, I think the original was fine

Well, it wasn't.

[Batz]

nah, I think the original was fine
Nerp.

[SCdac]

People have to stop acting like Manu is news every time he has a good game. Hes a multi time all star who was one of the 2-3 best players on a few title runs. Him having 20 something points is barely even news worthy. Its not like...a dumb thing to discuss because he did play well in an important game. But cmon...

I was on here 10 years ago with people saying he was the European Kobe before he got to the NBA. Topic must have been 200 posts and this was back when there might only be 10-20 people on at a time.

People were calling him better than Tmac in 04 and 05....

On here calling him top 3 at his position all time by like 08 ranking him over the likes of Jerry West, Wade, and so on.

Hes a great 6th man who goes off now and then.

On one of the more well known teams of the last decade.

He is not unknown and everyone is well aware of what he can do.

Just so happens hes not doing a lot as often as he used to so hes not as discussed. As was mentioned...this was his season high game.

Hes not gonna be talked about daily when more often than not he has 9 quiet points and 2 nice passes while the spurs win by being 10 deep.

LOL... cry me a river man

Ginobili is an all-time great player, regardless of specific placement. Him being compared to great players is hardly an insult, don't let overzealous fans change your opinion of a proven winner (internationally). He'll probably be a HOF'er and his jersey will one day be up in the AT&T Center.

If this was James Harden going off tonight, this board would be going all crazy in the way you remember the board going off for Manu (though prime Manu was better)... But when it's an accomplished player doing it, we should be up in arms when he gets recognition or is called underappreciated?

watch some of his game film. this dude (manu) has intangible game and gives 100% effort off the ball. You don't get that from many of the SG's today, the Kevin Martins, Monta Ellis's, and Michael Finley's. a quiet game from Manu can still have a surprisingly big impact.

[guy]

My bad cuzzo.

I'm talking about this thread I made over a month ago that stirred up quite the debate (here's the OP from that thread):

Why Is Manu So Underrated? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260216)

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NO6dza7Wfy0/TGJAVLadyjI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9Xmkcgui5_E/s1600/p1.manu.jpg
Manu Ginobili: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
http://www.jumpusa.com/dribble.jpg
Dwyane Wade: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
http://blog.imgacademies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jerrywestdriving.jpg
Jerry West: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/07/clyde-poster.jpg
Clyde Drexler: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html)

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.


I don't get it. How are the stats comparable? Biggest reason Ginobili has 3 rings is cause he played with Tim Duncan. Not cause he was ever as good or better then Wade, West, or Drexler. Replace Ginobili with one of those guys and the Spurs may have more rings and are an even more dominant dynasty. T-Mac or AI would've won rings with Duncan as well.

[ralph_i_el]

My bad cuzzo.

I'm talking about this thread I made over a month ago that stirred up quite the debate (here's the OP from that thread):

Why Is Manu So Underrated? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260216)

Just curious...

Manu Ginobili is a 3x NBA Champion (so far), has 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 2 FIBA Gold Medals, was the Italian League & Euroleague Finals MVP, a 2x NBA All Star ('05&'11), and the 2008 NBA Sixth Man of The Year.

So why in the world is he NEVER considered to be not only one of, IF NOT THE 2ND BEST SG OF HIS ERA, but routinely isn't even considered one of the TOP BEST SG's in the NBA?

You could make his health a major reason why but in comparison:
Games Played:
Manu Ginobili ('02-now): 664
Dwyane Wade ('03-now):594

70 games is the difference (which is nearly an NBA season which is exactly how much longer Manu has been in the NBA over Dwyane Wade).

And this is not a knock on Wade but a simple fact, Wade has 1 NBA Championship (so far), 1 Olympic Gold Medal (so far), 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8x NBA All Star but is routinely ranked as the 2nd best SG of his era (behind Kobe) and usually 3-5 All Time ranking behind Jordan, Kobe, West, and Drexler.

Speaking of which, here's a comparison of Ginobili's stats against those SG's who are routinely ranked higher than him:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NO6dza7Wfy0/TGJAVLadyjI/AAAAAAAAAfY/9Xmkcgui5_E/s1600/p1.manu.jpg
Manu Ginobili: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
http://www.jumpusa.com/dribble.jpg
Dwyane Wade: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)
http://blog.imgacademies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jerrywestdriving.jpg
Jerry West: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/07/clyde-poster.jpg
Clyde Drexler: Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html)

As you can see, he has won more NBA titles (3) than each of the above (1) and his numbers are VERY COMPARABLE even though he NEVER put up more than 13 FG's/ game during the regular season while his Playoffs/ Finals numbers hold there own against these guys EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NEVER THE 1ST OPTION ON HIS TEAM which directly affects his PPG totals (as well as others) which most will use as a crutch to claim he wasn't as good as the other SG's.

How come Manu Ginobili is not as highly ranked as other SG's, presently or all time?

He is so underrated...smooth lefty, great handles, crafty, excellent shooter, innovator of the "Euro-step", great finisher, and more clutch than Drexler ever was while arguably just as or even more clutch than D Wade and Jerry West.

There is a case to be made that he in fact is the 3rd best SG of All Time or at least Top 5 All Time.

I love manu and his game is just great to watch but you are doing him a disservice by overrating him like that. Top top 10 i'll give you

[Pushxx]

Just entering this thread to remind everyone of the existence of Sam Jones and George Gervin.

Oh and respect to Manu. Top 15 SG all time.

[Kblaze8855]

LOL... cry me a river man

In a topic about a spurs fan who has been complaining about where one of the most universally praised players of his era is ranked...thats funny.


Ginobili is an all-time great player, regardless of specific placement.

Hes an all time great player like Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, or Jojo White are.


Him being compared to great players is hardly an insult

Him being called better than Jerry West, Wade, and many others is.


don't let overzealous fans change your opinion of a proven winner (internationally).

Manu winning games on teams that should win games means little to me. Nor does beating team usa with a team with 6 nba players on it. I watched Carlos Arroyo do that with a team full of rejects.

My respect for Manu is from his skills and his approach t othe game. Hes a star talent who takes a role players role 90% of the time because its best for his team. I respect it. But im not giving him credit for being what I think he probably could when ive not seen it.


He'll probably be a HOF'er and his jersey will one day be up in the AT&T Center.

Neither of those mean anything to me. The HOF is full of players who dont justify half the love Manu gets from some especially considering the international side which does a lot to justify his HOF status. Id probably vote for him by the way.



If this was James Harden going off tonight, this board would be going all crazy in the way you remember the board going off for Manu (though prime Manu was better)... But when it's an accomplished player doing it, we should be up in arms when he gets recognition or is called underappreciated?

Up in arms? How dramatic.

Im not the one making a big deal of a somewhat star player having 26 points.

Im not trying to prevent its discussion either. not like I deleted the topic or anything.

I just find it odd to be asking if anyone is still sleeping on an all star who had a...pretty good...but not great..game.

Hes been well known for 10 years. Hes been compared to all time NBA Mt.Rushmore type players.

A game like last night is hardly even noteworthy for a player on the level hes said to be by many.



watch some of his game film.

Considering that I dont think ive missed a spurs playoff game since he started...and I watch all national tv games for the most part...and the olympics/and WCs..

Ive probably seen Manu play 300 or more times. As have we all.

Hes a mystery to nobody who cares about basketball.


this dude (manu) has intangible game and gives 100% effort off the ball. You don't get that from many of the SG's today, the Kevin Martins, Monta Ellis's, and Michael Finley's. a quiet game from Manu can still have a surprisingly big impact.

Which has what to do with anything?

Has anything ive said about him ever suggested I dont think hes a very good player and likely better than his numbers?

[Booz Vivic]

Manu was drafted with like pick nr. 50 or something no way he will be GOAT

[BallsOut]

Just entering this thread to remind everyone of the existence of Sam Jones and George Gervin.

Oh and respect to Manu. Top 15 SG all time.

There are definitely not 14 better SGs than Manu. He's top 10 in my book.

[1987_Lakers]

Hes an all time great player like Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, or Jojo White are.

Comparing Scott to Ginobili is an insult to Manu. Scott could only dream of having the ball handling, slashing, passing ability of Manu.

[Smoke117]

Is anyone sleeping on him in what way? This is his 10th season in the league we already pretty much know what he can do already. And no, He is not better than Wade, West or Drexler. That is just complete and utter nonsense.

[Kblaze8855]

All true. Doesnt mean Manu actually does a whole lot more game to game.

Of the 4 at issue in that quote...

Manu has probably done the second most.

There is a huge list of players history wont remember who are gonna perform about as well as manu night to night.

If you swap out Kendall Gill, Jalen Rose, Rolondo Blackman, Sleepy floyd, or even Kenny smith in their primes for Manu...the spurs dont just stop being the Spurs.

Hes important.

Hes not a make or break player. Hes a great guard to have on a great team. But hes gonna just drop 9 quiet points and not stand out far more often than a player on the level hes suggested to be.

Even in games they need a spark. It just doesnt come up because hes not expected to really go hard all the time the way stars are. Little is expected of him which is exactly why a game that Jalen Rose could and has topped in the finals is drawing praise.

Manus game last night is of note for a guy like him. Or harden. Or...Rip Hamilton. Hersey Hawkins on the sonics maybe. Derek Harper on the Knicks?

But really...its rare as hell that Manu just owns a game.

can it be said its because he doesnt try?

Sure. I watched his 48 point game vs the suns like everyone else.

But not trying to force it doesnt make what he does night to night more than it is.

Manu on a pretty normal night...he isnt gonna do a lot that Brent Barry in Clippers/Bulls/Sonics form didnt. He plays better defense. But really...night to night?

Isnt like one is lighting the world on fire and the other is a no show.

Manus average performance is probably like a 6. Brents a 5.

[SCdac]

It's people that overrate the shit out of him (like the OP) that make you guys jaded when it comes to Manu.

At the end of the day, Manu has had a much better, winning, career than guys like Carter, Arenas, Roy, Hamilton, J. Johnson, Finley, etc.

When you realize who Manu is better than... it's hardly an insult to regard him as an all-time great SG.

Ginobili almost beat a prime Tim Duncan for Finals MVP against one of the toughest defensive teams ever (2005 Pistons).

Very integral player, and everyone who watches the Spurs knows it... hence the "two man game" kind of commentary.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/IMG_1987.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

It's people that overrate the shit out of him (like the OP) that make you guys jaded when it comes to Manu.

I dont think I am jaded at all. I like Manu. I was talking about him last night during the game with my people. But im not gonna act like a guy who goes straight invisible so often and even his big games are just average all star play is more than he is.



At the end of the day, Manu has had a much better, winning, career than guys like Carter, Arenas, Roy, Hamilton, J. Johnson, Finley, etc.

Here is the issue...

When you spend your career with a guy who had 2 rings before you were even a noteworthy player and won like 60-62 games the season before you arrived? A guy who was probably as good as or better than anyone at his position ever by his 3rd season?

People just arent gonna say what you won makes you better than others.

Manu is either todays Sam Jones or todays John Havlicek. Neither is an insult. And really...both were far more highly regarded in their days than manu in his.

But Sam just wont get Jerry West credit even if he was the leading scorer on like 5 title teams and hit series and title winning shots at a rate thats kinda absurd if you really look into it.....



When you realize who Manu is better than... it's hardly an insult to regard him as an all-time great SG.

Totally depends on what all time great is.


Ginobili almost beat a prime Tim Duncan for Finals MVP against one of the toughest defensive teams ever (2005 Pistons).

If he had it wouldnt mean anything. Nobody discredits Tim over who wins a finals MVP when he clearly doesnt care. Manu would just join Cornbread, Jojo, dumars, Parker, and a few others as finals MVPs who dont really justify a ranking among the best all time. And I say that with a great respect for several of those players for the record.

But....any single series award is just easy to get a non major player to win. You only need 2-3 nice moments to get it.


Very integral player, and everyone who watches the Spurs knows it... hence the "two man game" kind of commentary.

Im quite sure I could find similar things said of Tony around 07 or 08 or when he was dropping 55 on teams or getting MVP talk earlier this year.

That team has always been Duncan plus depth. The depth is often legit good player. Stars. But Parker and Manu? neither really pulled away for that 32 spot.

And now that duncan has willingly stepped back it feels more like Parker took the controls more than Manu.

Which im sure Manu doesnt care about. Just wants the Ws. which can be admired these days with all the diva stars dying for fame.

But...really.

The Spurs win as a group. As they should. They play the right way.

[SCdac]

Manu on a pretty normal night...he isnt gonna do a lot that Brent Barry in Clippers/Bulls/Sonics form didnt. He plays better defense. But really...night to night?

Isnt like one is lighting the world on fire and the other is a no show.

Manus average performance is probably like a 6. Brents a 5.

Ginobili is a much better player than Brent Barry.

Hell you once said Manu is flat out better than Reggie Miller.

Manu averaged 16 PPG in his third season (not close to one of his best seasons)... Barry averaged 16 PPG... never.

Barry is probably a better three points shooter (even though Manu is the best three point shooter for Spurs all-time), that's about it.

[Kblaze8855]

Manu is better than Brent Barry.

Manu does not contribute much more on a nightly basis than Brent Barry did in his prime.

They are not the same thing.

Also...Brent Barry in his prime on a team like the current Bulls or Heat....a team that got him some air time? He would have been loved. He was breaking ankles, throwing up Dr.J layups, banging on bigmen, and throwing passes the likes of which Manu gets top 10 plays of the year for.

Give Brent Barry some defense and manus confidence he would have been a star. But he was too happy to play a role.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXg-k_1NGMY

I kinda miss him though.

You cant watch that and not see a lot of skill and athletic ability. And he was one of the best shooters in the league.

And his best play didnt even get seen.

His brief run on the Bulls he probably produced as many realy highlights as any Bull post Jordan other than Rose.

[SCdac]

Im quite sure I could find similar things said of Tony around 07 or 08 or when he was dropping 55 on teams or getting MVP talk earlier this year.

Oh I'm sure you can find articles talking up Parker, people holding him in high regard. Doesn't take anything away from Manu, who has at times heard "MVP" chants at the AT&T center. Manu is more integral to the team IMO. Parker teamed with Duncan can put up 26 PPG in the first round, but without Manu, Spurs don't get out of the first round (see: 2009). Look at last season when Manu broke his arm and wasn't playing up to par, Spurs get ousted. No doubt Manu is a make or break player for the Spurs. Since his rookie season he's had a big impact on the Spurs.

Here's a little segment on Manu as a rookie...

Stephen Jackson: "He's got the same mentality as I have - we are never scared"

Malik Rose: "He has alot of moves and instincts you can't teach"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mBwUrD_A8

[Kblaze8855]

The spurs got knocked out 6 times with Manu.....one of them partly because he made one of the worst fouls ive ever seen on Dirk...not that the entire L is just his fault. Just...mentioning it.

Far as Manu vs Parker....eh. Year to year. I think Parker has been more reliable night to night though. but he doesnt have the attention grabbing highs like Manu. Not as many at least. But hes been pretty steady for like 8 years.

[SCdac]

Manu is better than Brent Barry.

Manu does not contribute much more on a nightly basis than Brent Barry did in his prime.

They are not the same thing.

Also...Brent Barry in his prime on a team like the current Bulls or Heat....a team that got him some air time? He would have been loved. He was breaking ankles, throwing up Dr.J layups, banging on bigmen, and throwing passes the likes of which Manu gets top 10 plays of the year for.

Give Brent Barry some defense and manus confidence he would have been a star. But he was too happy to play a role.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXg-k_1NGMY

I kinda miss him though.

You cant watch that and not see a lot of skill and athletic ability. And he was one of the best shooters in the league.

And his best play didnt even get seen.

His brief run on the Bulls he probably produced as many realy highlights as any Bull post Jordan other than Rose.

Brent Barry was a great player, I like him, he got all the minutes in the world on some of his teams --- and is still not as good as Manu (on a night by night basis, week by week, or month by month).

If we're measuring just primes it's not even close IMO.

Barry was destined to be a role player and that's about it... (he backed up Manu on the Spurs).

Manu has legitimate All-Star potential and probably takes a team further on his own.

Just the fact that we're comparing Manu to Brent Barry, to me, speaks volumes about how underrated he is IMO.... and I'm well aware of Brent's skills and talents.

[SCdac]

The spurs got knocked out 6 times with Manu.....one of them partly because he made one of the worst fouls ive ever seen on Dirk...not that the entire L is just his fault. Just...mentioning it.

Far as Manu vs Parker....eh. Year to year. I think Parker has been more reliable night to night though. but he doesnt have the attention grabbing highs like Manu. Not as many at least. But hes been pretty steady for like 8 years.

I generally agree. year to year. things fluctuate, naturally. nothing is ever set in stone. I think in terms of measuring "steadiness", Parker is pretty high (Duncan is obviously much higher). But steadiness doesn't guarantee anything. In his best championship run, Manu started most of the playoffs and averaged 30+ MPG, so we're not talking about just a bit-player.

As for the infamous foul. It was a great mistake. People had to make sure Manu was ok (mentally) after the game, because he was rightfully down about it. I live in SA and it's not forgotten about like it probably is anywhere outside this city. But also have to remember, Manu hit a HUGE three before right before that play. he's one of the reasons SA was in the series. Averaged 21 PPG and 2.3 SPG.

[Kblaze8855]

When you talk potential...I think its a lot closer than when we talk performance.

Brent was a better athlete than Manu, probably a better shooter, a similar passer(which is saying a lot), and when he attacked he could just destroy guys. But he was a transition attacker. A quick opening slasher.

He couldnt go one on one like Manu which is what held him back. But talent wise...he had basketball skills to match a number of all star types.

And when you say primes...its hard to even say with Manu. He came into the NBA at like 25 or 26. He was never a kid. I remember when a guy was saying he would be better than Kobe one day in like 02..suggesting he needed time to grow....it was mentioned in the argument that he was older than Kobe which a lot of us did not know since we didnt know anything about him. Was just an extra bit to laugh about.

Manu playing the best ball of his career is yes...far above Brent. But Manu has been of his prime age or a bit past it all his career in the NBA. How do you even define his prime? Ive seen a LOT of Manu just....existing. him having 4 points and 4 turnovers with a couple assists isnt even surprising. Hes done it this playoffs. But it doesnt get used against him because hes not expected to do much.

Hes not really a star. Hes a role player who could be a star. It really limits the criticism he can take. How do you say a guy played poorly when he takes 2 shots, played decent d, and had a couple nice passes on pick and rolls?

He didnt try to do much. So...is it playing poorly when they win anyway?

No.

Its being a role player.

Which he is waaaaaaaaaay too often for me to give him the credit I give guys leaned on to win their team games every night.

I think thats fair.

[SCdac]

When you talk potential...I think its a lot closer than when we talk performance.

Brent was a better athlete than Manu, probably a better shooter, a similar passer(which is saying a lot), and when he attacked he could just destroy guys. But he was a transition attacker. A quick opening slasher.

He couldnt go one on one like Manu which is what held him back. But talent wise...he had basketball skills to match a number of all star types.

Better athlete? debatable. Manu has dunked on the best of em, and is very athletic

better shooter? maybe from outside the paint, particularly outside the three point line... what about all the court combined, I'd take Manu

similar passer? I agree, similar, though Manu is better IMO.

better attacker? I'd take Manu in a heartbeat. this guy is relentless.

scorer, defense, slashing, intangibles (like leadership, resiliency, etc), blocks, stealing.... I'd Take Manu.


And when you say primes...its hard to even say with Manu. He came into the NBA at like 25 or 26. He was never a kid. I remember when a guy was saying he would be better than Kobe one day in like 02....it was mentioned than he was older than Kobe which a lot of us did not know since we didnt know anything about him. Was just an extra bit to laugh about.

Manu playing the best ball of his career is yes...far above Brent. But Manu has been of his prime age or a bit past it all his career in the NBA. How do you even define his prime?

Judging primes is difficult.

I'd say Manu's prime was from about 2005 to 2009 ish.

Which is why him having a big game now is noteworthy, because he's 34 about to be 35.

That comment you made about him being compared to Kobe, again just seems like overzealous fans have jaded you.

for the record, I don't think Manu is better than Kobe, West, Wade, AI, Gervin, and a handful of other greats. Probably a top-10 or top-12 SG though... out of hundreds and hundreds of guards to play in the NBA.

Definitely a HOF talent, and a multiple champion in a way that Adam Morrison cannot say he is.


Hes not really a star. Hes a role player who could be a star. It really limits the criticism he can take. How do you say a guy played poorly when he takes 2 shots, played decent d, and had a couple nice passes on pick and rolls?

you're kind of just splitting hairs IMO.

Manu is a 2 time all star, and his AS appearances were separated by a third championship and a 6MOY award. 5 years apart. We're not talking about a flash in the pan year, like say Mike James in Toronto 2006.

Ginobili has gotten plenty of blame when he doesn't show up, particularly from the people who watch the Spurs regularly. He's not some untouchable player criticism wise. He makes mistakes. he turns the ball over.... but every player does.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Winning more titles doesn't automatically make one player superior to another. The circumstances matter. There's definitely something else sepearting Rob Horry and Jordan. That's why Jordan's better despite having one less title.

The bottomline, Manu is underrated because

- He plays for the Spurs

-played alongside the great Duncan his entire career, who had titles and great seasons prior to Manu arriving

- He comes off the bench

- He isn't particularly "Blake Griffin" flashy/exciting

- He doesn't do anything really noteworthy off the court(say drama, handling the media, etc)

-Doesn't exactly have eye popping stats

-He was never the best player on his own team for an entire season. Possibly second best in one, but this season he is definitely third.

[TMT]

^ Not too long ago he led the team in scoring with 20 PPG, coming off the bench. :confusedshrug: Don't act like Manu didn't have a decent stretch as the Spurs best player. But yeah he's vastly underrated because of all those aspects you mentioned, except the last. But he's probably the most exciting to watch of the Big 3.

[RaininTwos]

Manu is not underrated for the millionth time already. STFU.

[tpols]

KBlaze you're definitely underrating Manu.. He is far from a role player. Probabaly a top 10 SG of all time. He's like a Joe Dumars on steroids.

[Orlando Magic]

I argued back in 2004-2005 that Manu is a better player than Tracy McGrady. Would not have beaten him one on one, but as a team player and thinking of basketball as a team sport, while also considering their respective contracts, etc.

I was told (to be) a few things back then...

And you're still an absolute ****ing moron if you think that he did ANYTHING better than McGrady.

[SCdac]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Gervin
Drexler
Maravich
Iverson
Havlicek
Monroe
Wade

Outside of that group, you start looking at guys like Sam Jones, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Manu Ginobili and some others

what I'm wondering, how is that not part of an elite group of players?

Manu being "only a 6th man" or "only a role player" is a misconception.

[NugzHeat3]

He's a great player, love watching him play.

The thing that hurts him the most in comparison to some of the higher ranked SGs is that you have to limit his minutes and he's so injury prone because of his unorthodox and reckless style of play.

On a per minute basis, he's awesome. He can make a huge impact in a limited amount of time.

[Kblaze8855]

Its not splitting hairs really. hes a 2 time all star in 10 years. hes played 30 minutes or less the last 4 years. 23 minutes a game this season. Put up 13/4. He has too many 5-7 point nights to eve bother pointing out. Its not shocking. Its how he plays. He might make 2 plays worth pointing out some games. Calling him a role player who could be a star seems totally fair.

If anything its giving him more credit than his play justifies.

He might have 29 next game and cotrol the flow with nice passing, and timely threes, and steals. He might have 7 points 2 assists and 3 turnovers as he does nothing to prevent his team losing. Neither outcome would surprise anyone or be out of character.

The standards hes held to are too low for me to call him a straight up star.

Hes a star talent who doesnt have the pressure to perform that makes a lot of stars not get the love they would if it were ok for them to no show at the rate Manu can. Can you imagine the uproar if a real star has 5-2 in a big game? People are gonna be bringing it up for years. There is a topic now on Kobe having an 8 point game 12 years ago....

Clearly Manu does not try to impose his will on games. Which is why its not playing poorly when he fails to do it. Its him...being a role player. Role players arent expected to drive the team to success nightly.

Its that star standard that makes guys like Vince and Joe Johnson look bad. If they were on teams in their primes that could win without them imposing their will at all they wouldnt be such easy targets to hate on. If Vince could just coast like Manu and have a 30 point game here and there to get massive love he wouldnt be considered a failure of a superstar.

Most guys with Manus talent dont come into a situation where the team can and has won it all without them being terribly good. Most wouldnt accept the role Manu does. And its a great positive trait.

But I dont see why we have to give Manu the winner credit and act like he had to do as much as most star guards would have to in order to win as he has.

Manu has not spent his career playing with the pressure or under the standards a guy like Vince has or Drexler had on the Blazers....

Less is expected so he can do less and not be hated on for it.

I dont think its fair to an awful ot of players to give him credit and ranking among or above them when hes not had to endure what they have to gain their status.

If Manu has a game vs the Thunder like Vince in the playoffs dropping 35/15/7 people will come into this topic acting like I underrated him for not calling him an all time elite guard.

Vince does it and you have no idea which game I mean because hes had too many like that for it to stand out and he has to do too much to be remembered.

If Vince were held to the standards Manu is hed be ranked much higher. But he isnt.

Because hes expected to do more. Manu never has been.

[nosfan773]

Manu was drafted with like pick nr. 50 or something no way he will be GOAT

:facepalm

[SCdac]

Clearly Manu does not try to impose his will on games.

:oldlol: riiiight

he just sits around and cherry picks, loafs, kicks back, etc... he just waits for the right time, or the right day.

Not going to respond to every point you make... agree to disagree.

Manu has never had his own team (he probably could if he was greedy or a whiny bitch like many "stars")... I don't personally hold that against him. It's out of his control largely.

Had he had his own team I'd say he would be a perennial All Star with less championships, but still regarded as great. He's probably have a bigger contract, and be looked at in a different light by casual fans. Because he'd be putting up big(ger) stats on a not so great team... but hey stats are everything!

But being a KEY cog to a multiple championship team, that warrants recognition, absolutely it does. It's hardly something to hold against him. Being a team player, let alone an All Star team player, is indeed a very positive trait. Had he cried his way off the team or off the bench (knowing he's better than just a bench player), his name would be in the news more, maybe be more known, but not for good reasons.

[Kblaze8855]

I think you are way off on what casual fans respect. Casual fans dont know Joe Johnson and wlll never really hear much coverage of him. They will see and respect Manu because Manu plays on a team that will win enough to make that happen.

If you polled fans on if they want Manu or Bucks Michael Redd Manu would win. They wont even know Michael Redd and his 26ppg....


And no. Manu does not often try to impose his will on games. Hes not out there having 5 point games with 2 assists or 10 and 3 games because hes incapable of taking over. He has them because hes coasting.

Coasting here not said to mean he isnt playing hard. Im saying hes not trying to take over personally even from a playmaking angle.

Hes just being one of the guys. Manu isnt worried about who does anything so long as his team wins.

[SCdac]

Coasting here not said to mean he isnt playing hard. Im saying hes not trying to take over personally even from a playmaking angle.

Hes just being one of the guys. Manu isnt worried about who does anything so long as his team wins.

You're wrong about the playmaking part, Manu has for years held the ball in closing moments of the game (he's the Spurs closer), and acts as a PG often when Parker is on the bench. Manu is #45 all time in playoff assists, which is nothing to scoff at. For reference, Reggie Miller played in 144 playoff games (1,000+ more minutes than Manu), yet has about 140 less assists than Ginobili.

In the 2005 championship run, Parker lead the Spurs with 4.3 APG and Ginobili was right there with 4.2 APG. Point being, Manu some times take the back seat as a scorer (naturally, on a deep team with TD), but his passing game has been integral to the Spurs of the mid-2000s, especially when comes off the bench.

But, are you insinuating that he should disrupt the flow of his team and the game, and start trying to take over? That he should hold his own personal glory above team glory?... or are you saying he can't do that? Either way, I don't think he should do that, nor do I think he's incapable. He's taken over plenty and plenty and plenty of games, and that's on a deep team. On his own team, of course he would do what it takes to win, which would lead to gaudy stats, which would lead toward more recognition from casual fans.

[Kblaze8855]

4 assists a game is not taking it over or imposing your will. Its lowering the standards for those things to fit in a player who does not do it.

Can one do those things without it reflecting in the numbers? Of course. But manu simply is not some guy whocomes in and takes games over on a regular basis. He doesnt even attempt it. And no...im not saying he should disrupt the team by doing it.

Im saying his lack of doing it...isnt a disruptions...because they dont assume he will.

If Nique came into a game and didnt try to take it over that is not following the plan. manu playing somewhat passive is him doing his thing. He picks his spots.

Its clearly effective on the spurs. So no reason to change.

But I dont see why he should get the same credit that guys who take the burden onto themselves nightly get.

He doesnt because he shouldnt. But fact remains...he doesnt.

[TMT]

^ Hard to read everything this guy posts, but honestly you seem way to stat oriented. There are some players who impact the game in ways that aren't portrayed in the box score. :confusedshrug: Try watching some games.

[SCdac]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/170029_191216794226484_100000144943642_799543_3752 557_o-1-1.jpg

"When he feels like things are in a situation where somebody's got to step up and do something, he's always willing to do it"

- Pop

That's a strong statement, from an all-time great coach.

Ginobili, of all players currently in the league, does what it takes to win. I'm surprised somebody who knows the game so well is questioning his "will" and drive and abilities to take over. It's what puts him above guys who are just scorers like Monta Ellis or Kevin Martin.

Manu will take the charge, make the game winning pass, dive for a loose ball... you name it.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea....I need people like you to explain to me the problem in using numbers....


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175259

[Kblaze8855]

That's a strong statement, from an all-time great coach.

Ginobili, of all players currently in the league, does what it takes to win. I'm surprised somebody who knows the game so well is questioning his "will" and drive and abilities to take over. It's what puts him above guys who are just scorers like Monta Ellis or Kevin Martin.

Manu will take the charge, make the game winning pass, dive for a loose ball... you name it.

Me saying he coasts and doesnt look to impose his will all the time means I question his will/drive to win?

Im reasonably sure I covered this up there somewhere...

*checks*

Yep. I did..


Coasting here not said to mean he isnt playing hard. Im saying hes not trying to take over personally

[TMT]

Never said there was anything wrong with using numbers, but overusing them can be a bit over the top. Makes you sound like you just check the boxscores and go on with your day. :confusedshrug: Like I said, watch some games.

[Kblaze8855]

You clearly know nothing of me or my history so im gonna disregard that for the moment and just repeat...

Playoffs/olympics/national games combined...ive probably seen Manu play 300 times.

Nothing new to see.

[SCdac]

So, Manu coasts, yet he's always playing hard. If that's not an oxymoron I don't know what is.

[TMT]

Who gives a fμck about your history? I don't know who you are, I don't care who you are. But I can't believe how much you criticize Manu after a rejuvenating performance like last night against the supposed best team in the West. You appear like just another hater.

But sounds like you got some mad experience there bro. Your phone should be ringing off the hook with calls for front office jobs with all your scouting experience.

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure that anyone who has watched one of his many many many 9 point games with 2 assists can figure it out. Hes not more talented in 30 point nights or those nights he dazzles in the open court and takes over the game.

Hes making an effort to do it.

Not making an effort to take over personally doesnt mean he isnt putting effort into the game. Lindsey Hunter played hard every second. He wasnt trying to personally take control of the game though...

Its just not the same thing.

[SCdac]

Kblaze is a respected poster, makes badass videos, been on this board since before it was even "this board". No need to get hateful.

[TMT]

Kblaze is a respected poster, makes badass videos, been on this board since before it was even "this board". No need to get hateful.

No hate, but no there's no reason to feel self-entitled on a message board. To me he's just like any other person posting on here. I respond to them as I see them but saying repeatedly: "Manu has games where he has 9 points and 2 assists" isn't much of a point.

[Kblaze8855]

Who gives a fμck about your history? I don't know who you are, I don't care who you are.

Nor should you. But when ive spent as long as I have explaining the over use of numbers for you to say what you have makes it clear you dont actually know what you are talking about. Not as it relates to me at least.



But I can't believe how much you criticize Manu after a rejuvenating performance like last night against the supposed best team in the West. You appear like just another hater.

What I appear like to someone who clearly has an emotional attachment here means nothing to me. There is next to nothing here anyone reasonble would even call critical.



But sounds like you got some mad experience there bro. Your phone should be ringing off the hook with calls for front office jobs with all your scouting experience.

Doesnt seem the vastly experienced NBA coaches who decide on 7 of the 12 all stars have been terribly impressed with Manu. Why do you think that is?

[macpierce]

kblaze is merely pointing out that fact that when manu plays great he receives the attention and praise that star players in the league get, however when he plays bad or puts up decent numbers in a losing effort he doesn't get the blame like star players get.

end of story, you didn't need 5 pages and a genius to decipher what he was saying

[SCdac]

Im sure that anyone who has watched one of his many many many 9 point games with 2 assists can figure it out. very second. He wasnt trying to personally take control of the game though.

I can understand your argument more if Manu didn't average 15 PPG in the RS and 16 PPG in the playoffs. He averages about 4 assists per game in the both, which is great for a SG. What you're talking about is not what happens on average, which is why it's perplexing you're treating like the average. Or saying basically "that it happens (a quiet game) that it's unacceptable because players on worse teams aren't allowed to". If you take out his rookie season, in which he was clearly relegated, Manu's numbers look even more like what we've seen the past 7 years.

[SCdac]

No hate, but no there's no reason to feel self-entitled on a message board. To me he's just like any other person posting on here. I respond to them as I see them but saying repeatedly: "Manu has games where he has 9 points and 2 assists" isn't much of a point.

I totally agree. It'd be one thing if Manu averaged that, or even close to that, or if he hasn't shown numerous numerous times that he's an All Star talent... But, he was shown that. He has taken over games. He does step up - often.

[Kblaze8855]

No hate, but no there's no reason to feel self-entitled on a message board. To me he's just like any other person posting on here. I respond to them as I see them but saying repeatedly: "Manu has games where he has 9 points and 2 assists" isn't much of a point.

When no matter what a player does...its assumed to be a lot if they win...there is no point talking about them at all.

Manu is simply not dominating games when he has 7 points and 2-3 assists. He is not some tempo controlling, masterful play calling, quietly controlling everything player.

Guy plays less than half the game, might make 3 shots, have a couple nice passes, and force the break 3-4 times.

He has to do less than virtually anyone I can remember to later be said to have imposed his will. And you know why? he isnt judged by superstar standards.

Hesj udged by role player standards.

If Wade plays like Manu....hes laughed at. If Lebron plays like Manu...even if they win...you know what is said?

He took the backseat and isnt worthy of his high ranking because of it.

Manu has star talent in the minutes and approach of a sparkplug off the bench. Which is why a 26 point game is noteworthy in the first place.

That you consider it hate is...whatever. Fact remains...no legit star can play as passive as he often does and not be hated on.

Manu does not...because more isnt expected of him because he doesnt attempt to be one of those players. Even if he can.

[AngelEyes]

How exactly are people sleeping on Manu Ginobili? Seems like he has the same deserved reputation he's enjoyed the last 6, 7 years.

[TMT]

Let's not look past the fact that Manu has graciously gone through several role changes since arriving in the league. He went from young gun off the bench, to a dependent scoring starting guard, back to sixth man role, then back to more depended on because of injuries to main guys when he took on potentially his most heavy lifting role, and then we are at the present where no explanation is needed. During most of these changing roles he was winning championships no matter what he was asked to do.

You can try to act like he had a consistent role on this team where throughout his career he had the same expectations year in and year out, but that simply isn't true. That's what makes Manu unique, he has the ability to be a star clearly but puts that aside for the well being of his franchise.

Yeah he had outings when he didn't put up good numbers, but for these type of guys it's not about the numbers it's about W's and L's which is why this "judging Manu by the numbers" isn't the best way to analyze his career.

You can say I have an emotional attachment but what I'm saying nothing but the truth. I guess you can say being a fan of this team has opened me up to seeing that there is more to the game then purely what the stat sheet shows. Clearly others on this board don't share the same blessings.

[SCdac]

Eh... this is all boiling down to a "Manu has always been on a good and deep team, therefore nothing he's done is really worth much"... Same tired argument people make who have no interest in truly and honestly digesting his game and what he's capable of.

[Kblaze8855]

I can understand your argument more if Manu didn't average 15 PPG in the RS and 16 PPG in the playoffs. He averages about 4 assists per game in the both, which is great for a SG.

15/4 is not great for a swingman. Its great for a swingman we arent really looking for greatness out of. Its amazing for a role player. If an elite player has a standard Manu season...hes assumed to have fallen off.



What you're talking about is not what happens on average, which is why it's perplexing you're treating like the average. Or saying basically "that it happens (a quiet game) that it's unacceptable because players on worse teams aren't allowed to". If you take out his rookie season, in which he was clearly relegated, Manu's numbers look even more like what we've seen the past 7 years.

Im not saying its average. Though he had more games under 10 points this year than he had games over 20....and hes had 5 11 or less point games these playoffs...

And im not even saying when he does it its a bad game(at least a couple examples of that lately).

Im saying that...if the people hes raised to the level of...have the games he has a pretty regularbasis? They get hated on for it...because more is expected.

More isnt expected of Manu. And he doesnt make himself look bad by trying to force the issue and failing. He just...doesnt try to take over to begin with. He plays within the flow of the game. which he SHOULD.

Nobody is calling it a personality flaw.

Im just saying...the games he can have and not hear a word about?

Kobe gets hated on for. elite players...get hated on for them.

Manu does not. Because hes not expected to perform on an elite level.

[Big#50]

When no matter what a player does...its assumed to be a lot if they win...there is no point talking about them at all.

Manu is simply not dominating games when he has 7 points and 2-3 assists. He is not some tempo controlling, masterful play calling, quietly controlling everything player.

Guy plays less than half the game, might make 3 shots, have a couple nice passes, and force the break 3-4 times.

He has to do less than virtually anyone I can remember to later be said to have imposed his will. And you know why? he isnt judged by superstar standards.

Hesj udged by role playewr standards.

If Wade plays like Manu....hes laughed at. If Lebron plays like Manu...even if they win...you know what is said?

He took the backseat and isnt worthy of his high ranking because of it.

Manu has star talent in the minutes and approach of a sparkplug off the bench. Which is why a 26 point game is noteworthy in the first place.

That you consider it hate is...whatever. Fact remains...no legit star can play as passive as he often does and not be hated on.

Manu does not...because more isnt expected of him because he doesnt attempt to be one of those players. Even if he can.
Did you just call Manu passive? Que?

[Kblaze8855]

I...dont think I could make it more clear that I feel there is a difference between playing hard and looking to personally take over the game.

I think people are kinda looking for something to be upset about.

We all know damn well Manu doesnt score 10-16 points more often than not because hes incapable of taking over himself.

He doesnt do it...because hes not making an effort to do it.

[WillyJakk]

And w/ the way KBlaze is posting, hence the reason why I made this thread.

The guy made Durant, Harden, AND Sefalosha look extremely foolish when they guarded him, unlike Kobe at this stage of his career whom they looked fairly comfortable guarding.

EVERYTIME Manu got the ball, those guys were on skates cause he is a very crafty lefty who will deke the hell out of you, period.

Down the stretch when they needed a play or a bucket, Manu came thru as he always does and this, to me, in conjunction w/ the rings is what separates him from a Drexler and others.

"But he didn't chuck up lots of shots to score lots of points so NO, he's not that great....OP overrating him". :biggums:

[Big#50]

And w/ the way KBlaze is posting, hence the reason why I made this thread.

The guy made Durant, Harden, AND Sefalosha look extremely foolish when they guarded him, unlike Kobe at this stage of his career whom they looked fairly comfortable guarding.

EVERYTIME Manu got the ball, those guys were on skates cause he is a very crafty lefty who will deke the hell out of you, period.

Down the stretch when they needed a play or a bucket, Manu came thru as he always does and this, to me, in conjunction w/ the rings is what separates him from a Drexler and others.

"But he didn't chuck up lots of shots to score lots of points so NO, he's not that great....OP overrating him". :biggums:
At his best Manu is a way better player than Drexler. MJ and Kobe are the only players I would take over him. Manu isn't always at his best, though. That's why you can't rank him higher than Drexler. Manu Is a bad man.

[SCdac]

Manu is 34, going on 35, playing on probably one of the deepest teams of the last 10 years.

It's laughable that his career is being encapsulated and misrepresented by just this season... 75 games.... out of 700+ prior games.

Ginobili has started 400+ games at SG..... that, just the starts, is about 100 more games than OJ Mayo or Brandon Roy have even played in.

He averaged 20 PPG over an 82 game season four years ago on a team that called for it, are we just supposed to assume prime Manu wouldn't or couldn't be doing that on a team without Duncan? ... or is it, because he hasn't literally done it, that it's out of the question to postulate?

Are we supposed to pretend that Manu never averaged 21 PPG and 17 PPG in two championship runs, while playing 34 and 30 minutes per game respectively ... because he's not the player he once was and is scoring less now?

That doesn't make any sense. Judging a player by the tail end of his career is unfair, and inaccurate.

Manu in his best years played waaay to big of a role and waaay too many minutes to be considered merely a "pinch hitter".

Going back to earlier posts, the fact that Manu is being compared to "prime Brent Barry" speaks volumes.

[ImmortalNemesis]

Who gives a fμck about your history? I don't know who you are, I don't care who you are. But I can't believe how much you criticize Manu after a rejuvenating performance like last night against the supposed best team in the West. You appear like just another hater.

But sounds like you got some mad experience there bro. Your phone should be ringing off the hook with calls for front office jobs with all your scouting experience.

Don't get your big girl panties in a bunch just because KBlaze doesn't ride Manu's dick.

_____________________________________________

Kblaze makes some excellent points, and really I think some of you guys don't get it.....or don't want to get it. It could not be more obvious.

[AngelEyes]

Don't get your big girl panties in a bunch just because KBlaze doesn't ride Manu's dick.

_____________________________________________

Kblaze makes some excellent points, and really I think some of you guys don't get it.....or don't want to get it. It could not be more obvious.

It's very obvious. All he's saying, as far as I can tell, is that Ginobili's responsibilities on the Spurs in no way measure up to some of the guys who he is being compared to in this thread, (Drexler, Wade, etc.), while still taking into account his past accomplishments and his abundance of skills.

[WillyJakk]

It's very obvious. All he's saying, as far as I can tell, is that Ginobili's responsibilities on the Spurs in no way measure up to some of the guys who he is being compared to in this thread, (Drexler, Wade, etc.), while still taking into account his past accomplishments and his abundance of skills.

Which again leads back to the point:

What has Clyde Drexler or others accomplished that Manu has not?

And please don't give me that same tired "limited role" excuse.

I have posted their stats for a comparison and he, Manu has averaged very comparable stats on less fga's w/ higher efficiency.

Not dickridin' at all, just callin' it like I see it and the dude performs at a Kobe/ MJ level when the game is on the line but yet dudes get ranked higher than him simply because he didn't "shoot or score enough".

[guy]

Which again leads back to the point:

What has Clyde Drexler or others accomplished that Manu has not?

And please don't give me that same tired "limited role" excuse.

I have posted their stats for a comparison and he, Manu has averaged very comparable stats on less fga's w/ higher efficiency.

Not dickridin' at all, just callin' it like I see it and the dude performs at a Kobe/ MJ level when the game is on the line but yet dudes get ranked higher than him simply because he didn't "shoot or score enough".

I dont see where his stats are comparable to someone like Wade or Drexler. Am I missing something here?

[Kblaze8855]

At his best Manu is a way better player than Drexler. MJ and Kobe are the only players I would take over him. Manu isn't always at his best, though. That's why you can't rank him higher than Drexler. Manu Is a bad man.


At his best hes better than Drexler at his normal. Which isnt even saying anything. At Jamal Mashburns best hes better than Scottie Pippens normal. At Ben Gordons best hes better than Reggie Millers normal.

Both players at their best...Manu isnt better than Drexler. Drexler might go get 35/12/9 and 9 steals and own his man in the post, in transition, and out of the triple threat while setting up his bigmen and stealing everything thrown near him. Manu may play on a similar level with less numbers to show it but as I said...thats his best. His normal isnt Drexlers normal. Which you said already so...dont think im telling you something I felt you disputed.




Not dickridin' at all, just callin' it like I see it and the dude performs at a Kobe/ MJ level when the game is on the line but yet dudes get ranked higher than him simply because he didn't "shoot or score enough".


You really wonder why even other spurs fans wish you would stop?

[Funnyfuka]

manu is just ugly, just like pierce. Both great players, but dont have charismatic faces and personalities so they get overlooked constantly. Classic.

[ILLsmak]

The spurs got knocked out 6 times with Manu.....one of them partly because he made one of the worst fouls ive ever seen on Dirk...not that the entire L is just his fault. Just...mentioning it.

Far as Manu vs Parker....eh. Year to year. I think Parker has been more reliable night to night though. but he doesnt have the attention grabbing highs like Manu. Not as many at least. But hes been pretty steady for like 8 years.

I like Manu as well. one of my favorite players even though he's a flopper.

I think that Manu has brought the Spurs home a lot. Is he an all time great, no, but the way he takes over some games and empowers his team to win is a rare quality. He's definitely a hall of famer and someone to be remembered in his generation.

The other dude is right and so you are, in terms of his role and the way he plays it, I believe he's better than guys that put up a lot better stats. You knew in that game when Manu drained that fade away 3 that it was OVER. And that's the kind of shit Manu can give you. He came out to play well and did.

I don't think Manu is better than Kobe, but Manu would be a suitable replacement for Kobe on the Laker championship teams. As you said, Manu is underutilized. How well could he do statistically? How streaky is he on a bad team? Hard to say, but he's a winner. I'm taking Manu over VC, too.

You can even throw Manu over guys like Penny. There are just so many teams I can think of in my mind that you can say, "If they had Manu, they would have won that series." And it's that real, to me.

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

Much of that isnt bothersome enough to argue with. But I suspect that if you added Vince Carter or especially Penny to a team that won 60+ games and already had a title before he got there....and let him play with a great core/coach for 10 years? They would look a lot more like players who make a team win.

Vince Carter minus the crazy high standards hes held to because of his talent isnt anything to laugh at.

Vince on a team that doesnt need him to will them to success would be crazy.

Hes never been the type I think would go crazy without the ball.

Penny either.

Good number of unselfish stars could do big things on a team like the Spurs with Duncan in his prime.

And you know what?

Its funny to me sometimes how different people think I think different things. There are like 4 Durant fans I know who will go crazy if the Thunder win and bring up some 5 year old quotes I said about him and if Manu plays well and the spurs win this idiot in here is gonna act like im upset about it.

Oh well.

[CavaliersFTW]

modern day havlicek

[ILLsmak]

Much of that isnt bothersome enough to argue with. But I suspect that if you added Vince Carter or especially Penny to a team that won 60+ games and already had a title before he got there....and let him play with a great core/coach for 10 years? They would look a lot more like players who make a team win.

Vince Carter minus the crazy high standards hes held to because of his talent isnt anything to laugh at.

Vince on a team that doesnt need him to will them to success would be crazy.

Hes never been the type I think would go crazy without the ball.

Penny either.

Good number of unselfish stars could do big things on a team like the Spurs with Duncan in his prime.

And you know what?

Its funny to me sometimes how different people think I think different things. There are like 4 Durant fans I know who will go crazy if the Thunder win and bring up some 5 year old quotes I said about him and if Manu plays well and the spurs win this idiot in here is gonna act like im upset about it.

Oh well.

I guess what I was getting at is we don't know Manu's ceiling, but we do know that he is capable of playing a role on winning teams. We can't say that Penny (even though he won some, he never WON) or VC did that.

Now, if you take someone like T-Mac or AI, I will take them over Manu because we know those guys only just need a tiny bit more to get wins and they were just, in my opinion, unfortunate to be on either bad teams or teams that had players who they didn't mesh with.

Point being, if you take the 05 and 06 Heat and replace Wade with Manu, it's very possible they win. It's not unreasonable to assume that. That's the kind of player I think Manu is. It's not like you can throw him on a lotto team and he'll be able to lead them to a ring, but I think he can play the role of any other superstar wing and is also smart enough to play with another star big or even a star wing.

Of course that's completely hypothetical... but it's just what I've seen and what I "feel."

-Smak

[WillyJakk]

"Yo KBlaze!"

:coleman:

[Kblaze8855]

What? The spurs were up 22 when Manu had made 2 shots and had a couple nice passes and he helped them maintain a lead while being maybe the 5th or 6th best player on the floor tonight?

Is this a point making performance?

[WillyJakk]

What? The spurs were up 22 when Manu had made 2 shots and had a couple nice passes and he helped them maintain a lead while being maybe the 5th or 6th best player on the floor tonight?

Is this a point making performance?

I guess coming up big down the stretch (as he's done throughout his career) in a tight game when the team got stagnant means very little to you. :confusedshrug:

[SCdac]

it was an 8 point game before Ginobili knocked down a jumpshot with 6 and a half minutes left - not a 22 point lead. After that, he put up 8 more points including a big 3 to push the lead from 7 to 10 with a minute in a half left... regardless of this thread (which is about his career in it's entirety), Ginobili tonight was definitely not the 5th or 6th best player for SA. Behind Parker and Duncan, he was probably the third best player or 4th at most. None the less, his clutch-ness and impact on the game rang through once again, which is not uncommon by any means. This is somebody who's put up 20+ and 30+ games in the playoffs through out the last 7 years.

[guy]

This is somebody who's put up 20+ and 30+ games in the playoffs through out the last 7 years.

Pretty sure you can say the same thing about someone like Jason terry or Rip Hamilton. I think that's Kblaze point. If you said the same thing about someone like Wade, most people would still be expecting you to say something more impressive.

[SCdac]

Pretty sure you can say the same thing about someone like Jason terry or Rip Hamilton. I think that's Kblaze point. If you said the same thing about someone like Wade, most people would still be expecting you to say something more impressive.

what are Jason Terry and Rip Hamilton doing now though? Terry just put up 13 ppg on a team that got swept in the first round, Rip in the past few years has become a shell of himself. Neither has been a big part of multiple championship teams the way Manu has. Rip I think is closer to Manu in terms of talent, defensive/offensive abilities, value to a team and accomplishments, but he can't stay healthy, even worse than Ginobili. Terry has proven himself as a useful piece to the Mavs, but not in the way Manu has for a highly successful Spurs team the last 7-10 years. Terry is a great offensive player, but he isn't getting All-NBA status or any semblance of MVP buzz (from his home crowd or any crowd), he's not that player.

[GOBB]

Kblaze owned in this thread. His point was clear and all I see is people not getting his point and arguing what they care to read.

"Watch some games"

As if no one here watches Spurs games outside of Spurs fans. Such a weak reply especially given posters like Kblaze, Grinder watch countless games of basketball. Kblaze could make a Manu video where it'll have some Spurs fans sayin "Wow, didnt remember that highlight/play". But yeah watch games Kblaze. All you do is boxscore search. You broke down Brent friggin Barry game as you were attempting to get your point across. What boxscore did youi cite to do such a thing?

Gotta love some fans who get so emotionally invested into a team they feel more superior in their opinion than a outsider. Doesnt take a genius to see the only people who are struggling to grasp what Kblaze was saying were Spurs fans.

Oh how many times was "Manu is underrated", "Manu is vastly underrated" used in here?


Don't get your big girl panties in a bunch just because KBlaze doesn't ride Manu's dick.

_____________________________________________

Kblaze makes some excellent points, and really I think some of you guys don't get it.....or don't want to get it. It could not be more obvious.

Exactly! :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

I guess coming up big down the stretch (as he's done throughout his career) in a tight game when the team got stagnant means very little to you.

It would if we were talking about CJ Watson.

For a player who is even a borderline all star....no. Im not terribly concerned about helping a team maintain a massive lead that dwindled to almost being in danager late.




Pretty sure you can say the same thing about someone like Jason terry or Rip Hamilton. I think that's Kblaze point. If you said the same thing about someone like Wade, most people would still be expecting you to say something more impressive.

Exactly. This shouldnt need as much explaining as it seems it does.

Just the act of pointing out such a mundane performance for someone who is considered a very good player proves my point. There is literally nobody who justifies discussion among the players hes compared to who even gets a "___ played great.." out of it.

Its a Derek Harper level performance. Its a game Dan Majerle has and nobody brings up. Lou Williams does the same nobody is even speaking his name the next day.

The standards Manu is held to are just not those of all time great players.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze owned in this thread. His point was clear and all I see is people not getting his point and arguing what they care to read.

"Watch some games"

As if no one here watches Spurs games outside of Spurs fans. Such a weak reply especially given posters like Kblaze, Grinder watch countless games of basketball. Kblaze could make a Manu video where it'll have some Spurs fans sayin "Wow, didnt remember that highlight/play". But yeah watch games Kblaze. All you do is boxscore search. You broke down Brent friggin Barry game as you were attempting to get your point across. What boxscore did youi cite to do such a thing?

Gotta love some fans who get so emotionally invested into a team they feel more superior in their opinion than a outsider. Doesnt take a genius to see the only people who are struggling to grasp what Kblaze was saying were Spurs fans.


And its not like I even dislike manu...or as if I generally have bad things to say about him. topic a while ago I listed him as maybe the best passing 2 ive ever seen. I was told I was underrating Lebron by calling Manu a better passer a while before that. I was told I didnt watch Reggie Miller(where do people think I was in the 90s?) when I said Manu was better than him. I have so much manu footage you wouldnt believe it. he has a folder which ive updated every now and then since like...2005. When I made my first video on him.

It also has songs I throw into those folders which I think fits or makes a point. Its the only way to keep up with what id want to use without forgetting. manu has like 6 songs in there for the express purpose of being able to cover him from europe to now.

song I added most recently? The intro to OC/Apollo brows album trophy. Its a guy talking saying:


"E'rybody want they trophy.
What is that supposed to tell me that you did somethin?
I don't need no God damn trophy or award or, recognition.
I do this shit cause I love to do this shit!
All these kids nowadays, all these - all these young people.
They gotta have some type of shiny material posession
or some shit that shows that they did somethin!
They gotta have a trophy, they gotta have an award.
They gotta have a nice lookin girl, and a
a nice car and some rims and a gold chain!
We don't need to know that you done some shit - just do it!
God damn trophies."


Its supposed to play as Manu sits bored on the bench waiting to enter a game before he checks in and outplays someone....with a gang of trophies. Likely footage from his 48 point game vs the Suns when Nash had MVPs but Manu was flat out better. Know why I didnt do it?

Because they might make the finals and beat the Heat and Lebron would be the PERFECT "**** your trophies...." opposite to Manu.

I may never even do it.....but I am entirely aware of Manu. Ive seen him inhundreds of games and in thousands of clips. Hes been one of my favorite players to watch for years and someone I respect more than most.

But I get "Hey kblaze! What now?!?!" type posts over a game Dell Curry has and nobody cares about?

From people telling me Manu is better than Jerry West, Wade, and Drexler. As if any of them would even get props for such a performance.

Head scratching shit....

[WillyJakk]

"Oy vey"

Enter the brilliance of GOBB(ler) to go along w/ the continued ridiculousness of KBlaze. :facepalm

Here's a rhyme for you KB since you like rhymes:

It is quite evident that you guys are a fan of the man that puts the ball in the hole/
But a 3x Champion is just playin' a role/
He's not Black or White and he comes from overseas/
No way he's better than n*ggas from here, please/
Not better than the Logo, or Clyde w/ his good hair/
But you gotta put them 2 cats rings together to even make a pair/
30 pts 40 pts he ain't even average/
Fade, a decade later, still doin' damage/
Y'all stuck on stupid like only stats makes players Top 10/
Team game b*tch, all he does is win//

And this is from a Magic fan that recognizes greatness when he sees it.

[hennigplex]

Manu on a pretty normal night...he isnt gonna do a lot that Brent Barry in Clippers/Bulls/Sonics form didnt. He plays better defense. But really...night to night?

This was an interesting comparison. Is it because they are both white and have long noses??

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.aolnews.com/media/2008/02/brent-barry-thinking-180.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Enter the brilliance of GOBB(ler) to go along w/ the continued ridiculousness of KBlaze. :facepalm

Here's a rhyme for you KB since you like rhymes:

It is quite evident that you guys are a fan of the man that puts the ball in the hole/
But a 3x Champion is just playin' a role/
He's not Black or White and he comes from overseas/
No way he's better than n*ggas from here, please/
Not better than the Logo, or Clyde w/ his good hair/
But you gotta put them 2 cats rings together to even make a pair/
30 pts 40 pts he ain't even average/
Fade, a decade later, still doin' damage/
Y'all stuck on stupid like only stats makes players Top 10/
Team game b*tch, all he does is win//

And this is from a Magic fan that recognizes greatness when he sees it.


That was among the most cringe inducing posts ive ever read. I may never be the same again.

[guy]

what are Jason Terry and Rip Hamilton doing now though? Terry just put up 13 ppg on a team that got swept in the first round, Rip in the past few years has become a shell of himself. Neither has been a big part of multiple championship teams the way Manu has. Rip I think is closer to Manu in terms of talent, defensive/offensive abilities, value to a team and accomplishments, but he can't stay healthy, even worse than Ginobili. Terry has proven himself as a useful piece to the Mavs, but not in the way Manu has for a highly successful Spurs team the last 7-10 years. Terry is a great offensive player, but he isn't getting All-NBA status or any semblance of MVP buzz (from his home crowd or any crowd), he's not that player.

I was referring to people that think he should be on level of someone like Clyde or Wade and pointing out that if you tried to point out to their greatness by saying they've had multiple 20+ and 30+ point games in the playoffs, the reply would be "And?". Cause the fact is you can say that about a number of players such as Rip and Jet. I agree Manu is better then both of those players, but I would also say while he's in between the Rip/Jet and Clyde/Wade, he leans closer to that Rip/Jet part. I believe the whole point Kblaze was making is that he's not held to very high standards, which he isn't. And usually the greater the player, the higher the standard a player is held to.

[hennigplex]

It is quite evident that you guys are a fan of the man that puts the ball in the hole/
But a 3x Champion is just playin' a role/
He's not Black or White and he comes from overseas/
No way he's better than n*ggas from here, please/
Not better than the Logo, or Clyde w/ his good hair/
But you gotta put them 2 cats rings together to even make a pair/
30 pts 40 pts he ain't even average/
Fade, a decade later, still doin' damage/
Y'all stuck on stupid like only stats makes players Top 10/
Team game b*tch, all he does is win//


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P0LVGn9XNzc/TWgoqVgqrsI/AAAAAAAAA10/O6akT96rLOU/s400/8mile.jpg

[D-Wade316]

He's a top-10 SG of All-time. Somewhere between 5-7.

[GOBB]

I was referring to people that think he should be on level of someone like Clyde or Wade and pointing out that if you tried to point out to their greatness by saying they've had multiple 20+ and 30+ point games in the playoffs, the reply would be "And?". Cause the fact is you can say that about a number of players such as Rip and Jet. I agree Manu is better then both of those players, but I would also say while he's in between the Rip/Jet and Clyde/Wade, he leans closer to that Rip/Jet part. I believe the whole point Kblaze was making is that he's not held to very high standards, which he isn't. And usually the greater the player, the higher the standard a player is held to.

Bingo.

[KevinNYC]

Kblaze, what do you use to edit your videos?

[SCdac]

Kblaze owned in this thread. His point was clear and all I see is people not getting his point and arguing what they care to read.


LOL hardly

he said the Spurs were "up 22" when Ginobili came in and "made a couple of shots" yesterday.... did he even watch the game? or is he so jaded about Manu that he can't correctly see the things he's done or is doing? nobody is saying (I'm not) Manu is a HOF based off one game, but at least get the information, stats, and context right. Kind of just comes off as old and jaded.

It's like somebody compares Manu to Drexler or Wade (I don't agree), and all of a sudden it's people's job amidst the frustration to underrate him just as much as people are overrating him. Kblaze is putting Manu in the same breath as Dan Majerle, Brent Barry, and Lou Williams because "Manu is held to lower standards". Please. if that's not underrating Manu, I don't know what is. It's not like anyone is basing Manu's career off this one season.

Where is Dan Majerle's championship run? the guy averages 41% shooting in the playoffs, 11.7 ppg... Manu has had a much better career.

I mean, is this the same Lou Williams that averages 11 points in 30 playoff games? the guy who has only once scored 20 in the playoffs? :oldlol:

Going back to my earlier posts..... how can you say Manu is the very least not a top 10-20 shooting guard of all time? How is that not representative of what kind of player he is?


Jordan
Kobe
West
Gervin
Drexler
Maravich
Iverson
Havlicek
Monroe
Wade

Outside of that group, you start looking at guys like Sam Jones, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Manu Ginobili and some others

what I'm wondering, how is that not part of an elite group of players?

Manu being "only a 6th man" or "only a role player" is a misconception.