Need help with this NBA mystery from 1991 and after

[sportsfan76]

I watched the Bad Boy Pistons during their championship run from 1988 to 1990 but I don't remember what exactly happened to this team after they were swept in 1991 because of

No Internet
No Twitter
No NBA League Pass
No Access to Detroit Newspapers.


After losing that 1991 ECF to the Bulls, how did this team just disappear and fall off the face of the earth so quickly? I mean they had just won the title in 1990 and then all of a sudden this team was gone forever and never sniffed the Finals again. Who did they lose? Who was injured? Were there big changes? After beating the Bulls so many years why was it so hard for them to beat them again in 1992 and 1993?

Like Kobe said last week..."we are not going to be the 1991 Pistons and fade away forever?"


What happened??

[LAClipsFan33]

They had competed for the title since like '86. Their window just closed. They got old...

[Rowe]

This is a simple answer.

Isiah Thomas' wrist injury.

Isiah Thomas had been playing basketball with a fractured wrist on his non-shooting hand. He got hurt at some point before the 1990 NBA Playoffs when they won the Championship and he played through it, so he didn't decide to get operated on. The Pistons were doing everything they could to treat it but he had to finally get the surgery mid-season in 1991.

Isiah came back but modern medicine wasn't what it is today and he wasn't the same player for the rest of the season. He was still working himself back from injury when he walked into that series with a young, motivated Chicago Bulls team and they completely took him out of the games.

[Rowe]

They had competed for the title since like '86. Their window just closed. They got old...
No, their window was wide open in the 1991 season because they still had the overall talent & gameplan to beat the Bulls despite Jordan's performances.

Isiah was the engine of that team and with his injury, they couldn't recover in time for the Playoffs. No pun intended.

[sportsfan76]

This is a simple answer.

Isiah Thomas' wrist injury.

Isiah Thomas had been playing basketball with a fractured wrist on his non-shooting hand. He got hurt at some point before the 1990 NBA Playoffs when they won the Championship and he played through it, so he didn't decide to get operated on. The Pistons were doing everything they could to treat it but he had to finally get the surgery mid-season in 1991.

Isiah came back but modern medicine wasn't what it is today and he wasn't the same player for the rest of the season. He was still working himself back from injury when he walked into that series with a young, motivated Chicago Bulls team and they completely took him out of the games.


Thank you, now that makes a little more sense. So it was the wrist injury the year before. Did he have another injury the following year or did the wrist get worst?

[97 bulls]

No, their window was wide open in the 1991 season because they still had the overall talent & gameplan to beat the Bulls despite Jordan's performances.

Isiah was the engine of that team and with his injury, they couldn't recover in time for the Playoffs. No pun intended.
Even a healthy thomas wouldnt have changed that series from a 4 games sweep to a pistons win.

The bulls were just flatout better than the pistons once they broke past the thuggery thee pistons tried to use in an effort to beat the bulls

[bwink23]

Thank you, now that makes a little more sense. So it was the wrist injury the year before. Did he have another injury the following year or did the wrist get worst?


Wrist or no wrist...the Bulls were whipping the Pistons....one healthier wrist isn't gonna make up for a 4-0 series spanking.

[sportsfan76]

Even a healthy thomas wouldnt have changed that series from a 4 games sweep to a pistons win.

The bulls were just flatout better than the pistons once they broke past the thuggery thee pistons tried to use in an effort to beat the bulls


What made the bulls flat out better just a year later? They were just beaten the year before

[97 bulls]

What made the bulls flat out better just a year later? They were just beaten the year before
They didnt allow the thuggish tactics of the pistons get to them. Plus the continued evolution of pippen and grant. And jordan gaining more trust in them and their abilities.

The bottom line is the bulls wwere just better than the pistons. But you do bring up a strong point/rebuttal to those that say the bulls never beat anybody. The knicks beat the pistons in 92. Then the knicks lost to the bulls.

[AngelEyes]

They didnt allow the thuggish tactics of the pistons get to them. Plus the continued evolution of pippen and grant. And jordan gaining more trust in them and their abilities.

The bottom line is the bulls wwere just better than the pistons. But you do bring up a strong point/rebuttal to those that say the bulls never beat anybody. The knicks beat the pistons in 92. Then the knicks lost to the bulls.

This one.

[AMISTILLILL]

A combination of things. The injuries mentioned above, in addition to the tide simply turning in the Eastern Conference landscape. Jordan and the Bulls finally broke through and began playing with a contenders confidence.

In contemporary terms, picture the Thunder in that 2010 series vs. the Lakers compared to now. No real conceivable difference but continued improvement and the addition of guys like Perkins and Fisher.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9YzVTiMY48&feature=g-all-lik

[97 bulls]

Hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9YzVTiMY48&feature=g-all-lik
All they lost off their championship core was the microwave and james edwards. They shouldve been able to at least beat the knicks.

[AMISTILLILL]

Hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9YzVTiMY48&feature=g-all-lik

Damn, that Cosby sweater Laimbeer's wearing during the press conference :eek:

Talk about swag.

[97 bulls]

A combination of things. The injuries mentioned above, in addition to the tide simply turning in the Eastern Conference landscape. Jordan and the Bulls finally broke through and began playing with a contenders confidence.

In contemporary terms, picture the Thunder in that 2010 series vs. the Lakers compared to now. No real conceivable difference but continued improvement and the addition of guys like Perkins and Fisher.
I think the lakers situation is a little different. Kobes 33 with the milage of a player that probably 36. Gasol is getting up there, same with artest, as well as fiisher. And they had a new coach.

The pistons core was relatively young.

[AMISTILLILL]

I think the lakers situation is a little different. Kobes 33 with the milage of a player that probably 36. Gasol is getting up there, same with artest, as well as fiisher. And they had a new coach.

The pistons core was relatively young.

The part of that comparison isn't about that Lakers, it's about the Thunder. I'm talking about the Bulls' continued improvement being similar to the Thunders'.

[Rowe]

Thank you, now that makes a little more sense. So it was the wrist injury the year before. Did he have another injury the following year or did the wrist get worst?
No, he healed from the wrist injury.

But the Pistons had began to blow up their team that loss to the Bulls and Pippen became the X Factor in every matchup from then on. Previously the "Jordan Rules" were meant to take out Jordan and watch as his teammates struggled, but when Pippen emerged as a consistent, great scoring threat it was the end of Detroit.

[97 bulls]

The part of that comparison isn't about that Lakers, it's about the Thunder. I'm talking about the Bulls' continued improvement being similar to the Thunders'.
I stand corrected. Good point.

[Rowe]

Even a healthy thomas wouldnt have changed that series from a 4 games sweep to a pistons win.

The bulls were just flatout better than the pistons once they broke past the thuggery thee pistons tried to use in an effort to beat the bulls

Not entirely.

Chicago was the better team during the regular season simply because Chuck Daly was resting his guys for the Playoffs. Detroit owned the season series between the. In 1991 Detroit & Boston each were doing the same thing that a team today like Boston or San Antonio would do. The regular season accolades were irrelevant and the motivation was being healthy in the postseason.

There is no way Chicago would've swept Detroit with a healthy Isiah Thomas. Everybody on that Pistons team was healthy/rested as they completely dominated Boston in the prior series coming back from sure elimination to send Boston home.

As a Bulls fan you know how much he hated Jordan. There is no way Isiah would've given up 4 games, let alone get swept at home.

[Rowe]

The part of that comparison isn't about that Lakers, it's about the Thunder. I'm talking about the Bulls' continued improvement being similar to the Thunders'.

Yep. Good comparison.

Westbrook is the X Factor. Hes the "Scottie Pippen" in all of this because he is far more improved from that 2010 series and he's the one who sent LA home instead of Durant.

[D.J.]

The Pistons were getting old and the Bulls finally got past the physicality of Detroit. Injury or not, Chicago was winning.

[97 bulls]

Not entirely.

Chicago was the better team during the regular season simply because Chuck Daly was resting his guys for the Playoffs. Detroit owned the season series between the. In 1991 Detroit & Boston each were doing the same thing that a team today like Boston or San Antonio would do. The regular season accolades were irrelevant and the motivation was being healthy in the postseason.

There is no way Chicago would've swept Detroit with a healthy Isiah Thomas. Everybody on that Pistons team was healthy/rested as they completely dominated Boston in the prior series coming back from sure elimination to send Boston home.
Im referring to the series. Everyone always says the bulls won due to thmas injury. That argument may holld weight if the bulls won in seven like the lakers did in 88. But the bulls swept them. In dominating fashion. And the games werent really close aside from game 3.

Id say a healthy thomas, gets them a win. Maybe two. But they dont win the series.

[97 bulls]

The Pistons were getting old and the Bulls finally got past the physicality of Detroit. Injury or not, Chicago was winning.
Who on the pistons was old?

[Rowe]

Im referring to the series. Everyone always says the bulls won due to thmas injury. That argument may holld weight if the bulls won in seven like the lakers did in 88. But the bulls swept them. In dominating fashion. And the games werent really close aside from game 3.

Id say a healthy thomas, gets them a win. Maybe two. But they dont win the series.

How do you know they win the series? If Thomas hadn't missed several months and hadn't been trying to get back into the groove with his shooting stroke, they would've given Chicago another tough series. The team around him was good enough to win Playoff games despite Isiah, and they struggled when he returned to assume his same role.

Maybe it would've gone 7 games. I mean you're already conceding them 1-2 games if Isiah got healthy by the Playoffs, now what would happen had he never had a fractured wrist in the first place? See what I'm saying.

I still believe Detroit had another year in them.

McCloskey wanted to pull off the 3 Peat.

[sportsfan76]

I think the lakers situation is a little different. Kobes 33 with the milage of a player that probably 36. Gasol is getting up there, same with artest, as well as fiisher. And they had a new coach.

The pistons core was relatively young.


The only old player they had at the time was James Edwards

[TheFan]

No, thats not a mystery... lets not overanalyze... They got old and a younger, better and more athletic team came on top... Similar to what the Cavs did to the Chauncey Billups Pistons a couple of years ago...

It always happens... its happening to the Cs... its happening to the Lakers... it will happen to Miami... its a circle.

[sportsfan76]

Who on the pistons was old?

Vinnie Johnson and James Edwards

[KG215]

They didnt allow the thuggish tactics of the pistons get to them. Plus the continued evolution of pippen and grant. And jordan gaining more trust in them and their abilities.


This is the meat of it in my opinion. Pippen and Grant were second and third year players in 1989 and 1990. The Bulls still took Detroit six and seven games both years in the ECF. Pippen and Grant finally emerged (especially Pip) as a legit #2 scoring option and the Bulls just tok off. It was more or less Jordan waiting for Pippen an Grant to mature. In the 1991 ECF he averaged 22 ppg on 48% shooting in the 1991 ECF which was up from the 16.6 ppg on 42.5% shooting he posted in the 1990 ECF.

[97 bulls]

How do you know they win the series? If Thomas hadn't missed several months and hadn't been trying to get back into the groove with his shooting stroke, they would've given Chicago another tough series. The team around him was good enough to win Playoff games despite Isiah, and they struggled when he returned to assume his same role.

Maybe it would've gone 7 games. I mean you're already conceding them 1-2 games if Isiah got healthy by the Playoffs, now what would happen had he never had a fractured wrist in the first place? See what I'm saying.

I still believe Detroit had another year in them.

McCloskey wanted to pull off the 3 Peat.
Youre right Rowe, well never know. But based on how dominant the bulls wins were, i highly doubt that thomas swings thats series that much.

I mean, he was healthy the following year, why didnt the pistons get out of the first round vs the knicks?

[97 bulls]

Vinnie Johnson and James Edwards
They were old when the pistons were winning.

[sportsfan76]

No, thats not a mystery... lets not overanalyze... They got old and a younger, better and more athletic team came on top... Similar to what the Cavs did to the Chauncey Billups Pistons a couple of years ago...

It always happens... its happening to the Cs... its happening to the Lakers... it will happen to Miami... its a circle.


Well the real mystery is why didn't that same Pistons team face the Bulls again in the 1992 ECF since they had the same core of guys. Like Kobe said last week that Pistons team just vanished forever

[97 bulls]

This is the meat of it in my opinion. Pippen and Grant were second and third year players in 1989 and 1990. The Bulls still took Detroit six and seven games both years in the ECF. Pippen and Grant finally emerged (especially Pip) as a legit #2 scoring option and the Bulls just tok off. It was more or less Jordan waiting for Pippen an Grant to mature. In the 1991 ECF he averaged 22 ppg on 48% shooting in the 1991 ECF which was up from the 16.6 ppg on 42.5% shooting he posted in the 1990 ECF.
This eaxactly. The bulls were definately on the pistons level or slightly below the pistons with a young pippen and grant. With a developed pippen and grnt, the pistons were no match for the bulls.

[97 bulls]

Well the real mystery is why didn't that same Pistons team face the Bulls again in the 1992 ECF since they had the same core of guys. Like Kobe said last week that Pistons team just vanished forever
I also feel (and i know Rowe is gonna kill me for this) quit after they realized they couldnt beat the bulls in game three. And that carried over the course of the next few years. Then the blame game began. And they imploded

[Rowe]

Youre right Rowe, well never know. But based on how dominant the bulls wins were, i highly doubt that thomas swings thats series that much.

I mean, he was healthy the following year, why didnt the pistons get out of the first round vs the knicks?
http://i.imgur.com/kdwVP.jpg

Then that lead to the real birth of the best rivalry in basketball history with Chicago.

At the same time too, Isiah was no longer the player who could give you dominant performances each night. Got too old + everyone began searching for their own version of Dumars. Isiah couldn't get past the new breed of defenders that were coming in the league.

[Rowe]

I also feel (and i know Rowe is gonna kill me for this) quit after they realized they couldnt beat the bulls in game three. And that carried over the course of the next few years. Then the blame game began. And they imploded

Yeah they quit.

Once they lost the chance for the 3peat it crushed the dreams of the team + management(McCloskey). They steadily went down hill and everybody except Dumars ended up leaving. Somehow, Dumars is still there 20+ years later and he's holding on to Tayshaun Prince the same way Rick Sund did him.

[sportsfan76]

http://i.imgur.com/kdwVP.jpg

Then that lead to the real birth of the best rivalry in basketball history with Chicago.

At the same time too, Isiah was no longer the player who could give you dominant performances each night. Got too old + everyone began searching for their own version of Dumars. Isiah couldn't get past the new breed of defenders that were coming in the league.


You keep saying old and Isiah wasn't that much older than Jordan

at the start of the 91-1992 season

Isiah was 30
Jordan was 28

[97 bulls]

http://i.imgur.com/kdwVP.jpg

Then that lead to the real birth of the best rivalry in basketball history with Chicago.

At the same time too, Isiah was no longer the player who could give you dominant performances each night. Got too old + everyone began searching for their own version of Dumars. Isiah couldn't get past the new breed of defenders that were coming in the league.
Lol thomas was 30. When is this myth gonna go away?

To be honest, i feel the pistons lost their edge. That along with the league picking up on theiir tactics and even began to play their own form of jungle ball

[sportsfan76]

Lol thomas was 30. When is this myth gonna go away?

To be honest, i feel the pistons lost their edge. That along with the league picking up on theiir tactics and even began to play their own form of jungle ball


Exactly, he was 30 which was only 2 years older than MJ at the time.

[JohnnySic]

The Pistons peaked in '87-'90. By '91 they had clearly started to decline.

[Roundball_Rock]

In David Halberstam's book he notes that Chuck Daly saw in Pippen a future superstar and knew the Pistons days were numbered as when Pippen developed the Bulls would eclipse Detroit. (As noted by others, Grant also improved) What is odd, though, is how they fell off after 1991 to complete irrelevance. Regarding Isiah, yeah he was 30 in 92'--but he was out the league by 94'.

[jlip]

In David Halberstam's book he notes that Chuck Daly saw in Pippen a future superstar and knew the Pistons days were numbered as when Pippen developed the Bulls would eclipse Detroit. (As noted by others, Grant also improved) What is odd, though, is how they fell off after 1991 to complete irrelevance. Regarding Isiah, yeah he was 30 in 92'--but he was out the league by 94'.

I think that this is the biggest issue. It's not that they couldn't beat the Bulls again. It's that they, as you mentioned, became totally irrelevant. After '91 the "Bad Boy" Pistons never won another playoff series.

[Rowe]

You keep saying old and Isiah wasn't that much older than Jordan

at the start of the 91-1992 season

Isiah was 30
Jordan was 28
Yes, Isiah was old.

Back then most PG's peaked by 30 because they couldn't keep up with the younger generation who would come along. The pace of the game was much faster than it is today. Some PG's were able to keep a decent career post-30, but most PG's prime had ended by 30 and they were fazed out by their team.

Isiah was out of the league in 2 years while Jordan played another 8 seasons.

[sportsfan76]

Hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9YzVTiMY48&feature=g-all-lik



Just watched this, so sad:(

[Rowe]

Lol thomas was 30. When is this myth gonna go away?

To be honest, i feel the pistons lost their edge. That along with the league picking up on theiir tactics and even began to play their own form of jungle ball
True.

Ironically it was the Pistons who inspired the slower pace of basketball that came afterwards. They created the perception that "Defense wins Championships" and 20-25 years later it still holds true.

Pat Riley implemented an almost identical style of basketball with the Knicks that Chuck Daly used to beat his own Lakers team a few years prior. :oldlol:

[leopoldstotch]

Great discussion point here. Some great facts and points to factor in and I love a couple of posts about the rise of the Knicks, and the birth of the Bulls-Knicks rivalry. :applause:

[97 bulls]

True.

Ironically it was the Pistons who inspired the slower pace of basketball that came afterwards. They created the perception that "Defense wins Championships" and 20-25 years later it still holds true.

Pat Riley implemented an almost identical style of basketball with the Knicks that Chuck Daly used to beat his own Lakers team a few years prior. :oldlol:
Lol yep. Its funny, cuz out of all the dynasties the pistons are in my opinion the least respected, but probably changed the way the game is played most. Plus they had four hofers in thomas, dumars, rodman and daly. And did have a run of making it to three nba finals, and five ecfs. Id argue that they wouldve beaten the lakers back in 88, had thomas not went down.

That was a great team

[sportsfan76]

Lol yep. Its funny, cuz out of all the dynasties the pistons are in my opinion the least respected, but probably changed the way the game is played most. Plus they had four hofers in thomas, dumars, rodman and daly. And did have a run of making it to three nba finals, and five ecfs. Id argue that they wouldve beaten the lakers back in 88, had thomas not went down.

That was a great team


Why do I always slip up and say they won the title in 88? lol Even though they loss it still felt like they won the title that year

[sportsfan76]

somebody on youtube said the NBA wanted to bring the Pistons down because they were giving the league a bad image so during the ECF in 1991 the refs called fouls everytime the pistons rolled their eyes LOL

[Nevaeh]

somebody on youtube said the NBA wanted to bring the Pistons down because they were giving the league a bad image so during the ECF in 1991 the refs called fouls everytime the pistons rolled their eyes LOL

Wrong Wrong wrong (not YOU, just the assertion). The Pistons, at that time were getting away with waayyyyy to many cheapshots, to the point where teams (specifically Phil Jackson's staff) started sending in tapes to League Officials, basically saying "If you're gonna let them play this way, you won't really have a basketball match, but a wrestling contest instead". And they were right. That "slow down- freethrow contest" style nearly screwed the League beyond repair. What's funny is the Pistons were good enough to not even need to be cheap shot artists.

[sportsfan76]

Wrong Wrong wrong (not YOU, just the assertion). The Pistons, at that time were getting away with waayyyyy to many cheapshots, to the point where teams (specifically Phil Jackson's staff) started sending in tapes to League Officials, basically saying "If you're gonna let them play this way, you won't really have a basketball match, but a wrestling contest instead". And they were right. That "slow down- freethrow contest" style nearly screwed the League beyond repair. What's funny is the Pistons were good enough to not even need to be cheap shot artists.


You just made me hate that Bulls team from 1991 even more along with MJ

[Nevaeh]

You just made me hate that Bulls team from 1991 even more along with MJ

Hey dude, the Pistons were sending guys to the hospital with that bullsh!t. Not good for the League, for the Owners' investments in Players and definitely not good for the fans who want to see their favorite guys play the game.

[305Baller]

Coach Daly quitting and the GM change also sparked the end of the regime.

[sportsfan76]

Hey dude, the Pistons were sending guys to the hospital with that bullsh!t. Not good for the League, for the Owners' investments in Players and definitely not good for the fans who want to see their favorite guys play the game.


It added excitement to the NBA in my opinion. It was fun seeing one team hated by all the other teams in the league

[sportsfan76]

Hey dude, the Pistons were sending guys to the hospital with that bullsh!t. Not good for the League, for the Owners' investments in Players and definitely not good for the fans who want to see their favorite guys play the game.


It added excitement to the NBA in my opinion. It was fun seeing one team hated by all the other teams in the league

[KG215]

This eaxactly. The bulls were definately on the pistons level or slightly below the pistons with a young pippen and grant. With a developed pippen and grnt, the pistons were no match for the bulls.

Right. Had Detroit swept Chicago or beat them in five in '89 and '90, then it might be a different story.

Jordan's shooting percentages were down against them, but he still put up a respectable 30-5.5-6.5-2 on 46% shooting in '89, and 32-7-6-2 on 47% shooting in '90. Pippen had his moments, as did Grant, but weren't there yet.

[KG215]

In David Halberstam's book he notes that Chuck Daly saw in Pippen a future superstar and knew the Pistons days were numbered as when Pippen developed the Bulls would eclipse Detroit. (As noted by others, Grant also improved) What is odd, though, is how they fell off after 1991 to complete irrelevance. Regarding Isiah, yeah he was 30 in 92'--but he was out the league by 94'.

What book? Breaks of the Game is my favorite sports book ever, and The Summer of '49 is my favorite baseball book. I'd read just about anything by Halberstam.

Anyway, all else aside, that's essentially what it boils down to. Pippen went from being a 12-15 ppg scorer in '89 and '90 to a more reliable and consistent 17-20 ppg scorer. Pippen averaged 19 ppg in the 1990 playoffs but his scoring was down a bit against the Pistons. He was putting up good assist and rebound numbers and playing good defense, so you could already see the flashes of superstar budding, but when his scoring evolved it was game over for the rest of the NBA. He really was the perfect second banana/compliment for Jordan.

[gengiskhan]

I watched the Bad Boy Pistons during their championship run from 1988 to 1990 but I don't remember what exactly happened to this team after they were swept in 1991 because of

No Internet
No Twitter
No NBA League Pass
No Access to Detroit Newspapers.


After losing that 1991 ECF to the Bulls, how did this team just disappear and fall off the face of the earth so quickly? I mean they had just won the title in 1990 and then all of a sudden this team was gone forever and never sniffed the Finals again. Who did they lose? Who was injured? Were there big changes? After beating the Bulls so many years why was it so hard for them to beat them again in 1992 and 1993?

Like Kobe said last week..."we are not going to be the 1991 Pistons and fade away forever?"


What happened??

Please dont take wannabe front runner's word.

Kobe will always be biting MJ & that statements after then OKC embarrassment says it all.

Pistons made it to NBA finals 3 years in a row in Golden Era against extremely tough competition.

1988: they finally came over Celtics monkey but lost to repeating LAL in 6 games.

1989: They swept LAL to win 1st Championship for Piston's franchise!

1990: They beat PORTLAND in 6 to win Back-2-back rings.

They were a cerebral team with brilliant once-in-a-lifetime coach. Great responsible starters with incredible work ethics. Their rough playground style physical D made them brilliant & dangerous foes.

Isiah got old, other good players got old. Only rodman & dumars were young. Bulls & Knicks also matured.

Its nothing like 2012 LAL where the whole team is held hostage by shotjocking ballhogging SG shooting their teams out of winning position with 43%FG

Pistons were much better than this.

They just succumbed to old age & better & more matured conference competition

[Owl]

I think the lakers situation is a little different. Kobes 33 with the milage of a player that probably 36. Gasol is getting up there, same with artest, as well as fiisher. And they had a new coach.

The pistons core was relatively young.
The Pistons core was 8 strong
James Edwards 35
Vinnie Johnson 34
Bill Laimbeer 33
Mark Aguirre 31
Isiah Thomas 29 *
Dennis Rodman 29 **
Joe Dumars 27
John Salley 26

*= An old 29 Isiah had been in the league 9 full years prior to the start of that year. Extended minutes had been wearing him down. Isiah's stats consistently fell off after 86 (that was the start anyway, it was gradual and partly related to role at that point). A lot of that is a function of decreased pace and sharing the ball around more, but also his game was based on explosive speed and as he became less consistently explosive free throw attempts went down, fg% went down, 3 point attempts went up (and he didn't have that range). The same gist about mileage applies to Aguirre.

**= Rodman was a young 29.

That was not in any sense a young team.

But the main difference was in the Bulls not the Pistons. The Bulls were much better in 90-91 than the previous year. Pippen and Grant improved offensively and there was a huge improvement in the team's defense (before that year Chicago had been average on D).

[aceman]

before ped teams got old

[iamgine]

Doesn't it happen with some other champions too?

06 Heat, '11 Mavericks, '79 Sonics

[97 bulls]

The Pistons core was 8 strong
James Edwards 35
Vinnie Johnson 34
Bill Laimbeer 33
Mark Aguirre 31
Isiah Thomas 29 *
Dennis Rodman 29 **
Joe Dumars 27
John Salley 26

*= An old 29 Isiah had been in the league 9 full years prior to the start of that year. Extended minutes had been wearing him down. Isiah's stats consistently fell off after 86 (that was the start anyway, it was gradual and partly related to role at that point). A lot of that is a function of decreased pace and sharing the ball around more, but also his game was based on explosive speed and as he became less consistently explosive free throw attempts went down, fg% went down, 3 point attempts went up (and he didn't have that range). The same gist about mileage applies to Aguirre.

**= Rodman was a young 29.

That was not in any sense a young team.

But the main difference was in the Bulls not the Pistons. The Bulls were much better in 90-91 than the previous year. Pippen and Grant improved offensively and there was a huge improvement in the team's defense (before that year Chicago had been average on D).
Again. Edwards and Laimbeer were already in their mid to early 30s during their championship runs. So whats the difference? Whats more, was that its wasnt as if laimbeers game was based on athleticism.

I gguess you could say milage effected thomas but he wasnt old. And dont forget, the pistons were swept. And the games werent really close aside from game three. My god the pistons were the reigning champs. I could see an arrgument if they lost in 6 or 7. But theey were dominated. I could see if they were three or four years removed from their championship. I could see if the best players were old. But james edwards?

The bulls were just a better team than the pistons

[Rake2204]

Again. Edwards and Laimbeer were already in their mid to early 30s during their championship runs. So whats the difference? Whats more, was that its wasnt as if laimbeers game was based on athleticism.

I gguess you could say milage effected thomas but he wasnt old. And dont forget, the pistons were swept. And the games werent really close aside from game three. My god the pistons were the reigning champs. I could see an arrgument if they lost in 6 or 7. But theey were dominated. I could see if they were three or four years removed from their championship. I could see if the best players were old. But james edwards?

The bulls were just a better team than the pistons
I'm not sure Owl is trying to say who was better and who wasn't. The Bulls won in '91, convincingly at that, so I don't think it's a revelation to say the Bulls were the better team.

I think Owl was merely responding to your statement where you said the Pistons were relatively young. They weren't. In fact, I'd say they were relatively old. The majority of their core was on the precipice of running out of juice. And when you take a team who seems to be headed toward a downward trend and pit it against a team beginning a historically great run, there's a chance it's not going to be pretty.

I also object to the logic behind the statement, "Edwards and Laimbeer were already in their mid to early 30s during their championship runs. So whats the difference?" Being in your thirties does not mean your skill, endurance, athleticism, and durability retain the same form for the entire decade. What's the difference between the Scottie Pippen we saw in '97 and the one we saw in '00? He was in his 30's for both, but was he the same player through and through?

So why do I believe the Bulls swept Detroit in '91? I'd say because one team's run was clearly on the verge of ending and the other was on the verge of beginning. I'm not sure I'd say the Pistons' Bad Boys era ended prematurely. It would have been nice if the roster turned over more smoothly, but that crew was not going to be sticking around for long one way or another. Many of them were old and a few of them were crazy. Somewhat similar to the 2000's Pistons, a GM attempted to get out ahead of the aging bug and came up very short.

[Asukal]

I would argue and I believe that if the Bulls won the series against the Pistons in the 90 playoffs, the Bulls would have had a 4peat. :D

[Owl]

Again. Edwards and Laimbeer were already in their mid to early 30s during their championship runs. So whats the difference? Whats more, was that its wasnt as if laimbeers game was based on athleticism.

I gguess you could say milage effected thomas but he wasnt old. And dont forget, the pistons were swept. And the games werent really close aside from game three. My god the pistons were the reigning champs. I could see an arrgument if they lost in 6 or 7. But theey were dominated. I could see if they were three or four years removed from their championship. I could see if the best players were old. But james edwards?

The bulls were just a better team than the pistons
I'm not sure Owl is trying to say who was better and who wasn't. The Bulls won in '91, convincingly at that, so I don't think it's a revelation to say the Bulls were the better team.

I think Owl was merely responding to your statement where you said the Pistons were relatively young. They weren't. In fact, I'd say they were relatively old. The majority of their core was on the precipice of running out of juice. And when you take a team who seems to be headed toward a downward trend and pit it against a team beginning a historically great run, there's a chance it's not going to be pretty.

I also object to the logic behind the statement, "Edwards and Laimbeer were already in their mid to early 30s during their championship runs. So whats the difference?" Being in your thirties does not mean your skill, endurance, athleticism, and durability retain the same form for the entire decade. What's the difference between the Scottie Pippen we saw in '97 and the one we saw in '00? He was in his 30's for both, but was he the same player through and through?

So why do I believe the Bulls swept Detroit in '91? I'd say because one team's run was clearly on the verge of ending and the other was on the verge of beginning. I'm not sure I'd say the Pistons' Bad Boys era ended prematurely. It would have been nice if the roster turned over more smoothly, but that crew was not going to be sticking around for long one way or another. Many of them were old and a few of them were crazy. Somewhat similar to the 2000's Pistons, a GM attempted to get out ahead of the aging bug and came up very short.
Cheers I think you accurately captured what I was going for.

Never did I state that the Bulls weren't the better team, they were, much better in fact. I pointed to their largest areas of improvement (in order of importance: defense, Pippen, Grant). But I will repeat the big change was the improvement of the Bulls not the fall of the Pistons (who, for champions weren't a great team anyhow).

But there had been suggestions that the Pistons weren't an old team, and that just isn't true.

[sportsfan76]

Doesn't it happen with some other champions too?

06 Heat, '11 Mavericks, '79 Sonics


06 Heat....no championships before that........or no finals appearances

11 Mavs......no championships before that.....or no finals appearances

79 sonics......no championships before that....or no Finals appearances



Not a good comparison to 1991 Pistons

[sportsfan76]

I would argue and I believe that if the Bulls won the series against the Pistons in the 90 playoffs, the Bulls would have had a 4peat. :D



And I strongly believe that if MJ missed that shot against the Cavs in 1989 there would have never been a Bulls dynasty in the 1990's

[Owl]

06 Heat....no championships before that........or no finals appearances

11 Mavs......no championships before that.....or no finals appearances

79 sonics......no championships before that....or no Finals appearances



Not a good comparison to 1991 Pistons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_NBA_Finals

[sportsfan76]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_NBA_Finals


Ok I didn't do my research but I knew they didn't have this history

1976-lost WCF

1977-lost finals

1978-won finals

[97 bulls]

Allow me to ask a question. Would the 89 pistons lose to the 91 bulls?

[sportsfan76]

Allow me to ask a question. Would the 89 pistons lose to the 91 bulls?


That's a hard question because of the fact they won the title that year because of the Lakers being without Magic, and Scott.

They defintely would not have won a title in 1990 without Isiah and Lambieer