Why do some fans rank Kobe Bryant ahead of Tim Duncan?

[Lebron23]

Duncan won 4 NBA titles as the no.1 option of his team. Timmy is also a 2x NBA MVP, and 3x Finals MVP. I actually rank Duncan ahead of Bird in the all time lists. The Spurs are a playoffs team since they drafted Duncan in the 1997 NBA Draft.

[It's A VC3!!!]

A LeBron fan who will do anything to devalue Kobe.

He has 5 rings.

People rank players based on preference combined with rings. That's how it's been and that's how it will always be.

Bill Russel has 11 rings. Yet there are a lot of people who don't classify him as a top 2-3 player. You give MJ 11 rings and nobody in the world would ever debate his ranking.

Again, Kobe and Duncan are both great top 10 players in NBA history.

[Deuce Bigalow]

2001 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html), 2002 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html), 2004 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_WCS.html), 2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_WCF.html).

[Lebron23]

A LeBron fan who will do anything to devalue Kobe.

He has 5 rings.

People rank players based on preference combined with rings. That's how it's been and that's how it will always be.

Bill Russel has 11 rings. Yet there are a lot of people who don't classify him as a top 2-3 player. You give MJ 11 rings and nobody in the world would ever debate his ranking.

Again, Kobe and Duncan are both great top 10 players in NBA history.


Finals MVP. Robert Horry is a 7x Champion. Prime John Havlicek was also a good NBA player. His team won 9 NBA Championships, but you never see some jerk offs rank him ahead of Hakeem and Bird. LeBron will win an NBA Finals MVP. He's better than that @$$hole.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Finals MVP. Robert Horry is a 7x Champion. Prime John Havlicek was also a good NBA player. His team won 9 NBA Championships, but you never see some jerk offs rank him ahead of Hakeem and Bird. LeBron will win an NBA Finals MVP. He's better than that @$$hole.

That's definitely true. There are a ton of players that end up turning invisible after they retire. Robert Horry will only be remembered for his crazy, lucky, miracle shots rather then his rings. I don't know why it's like that, and it sucks. LeBron will surely be remembered if he wins a ring or multiple rings. While other players won't.

[Vienceslav]

I

[Alamo]

Most people here rank Duncan ahead of Kobe. Where have you been?

[Artillery]

Most people here rank Duncan ahead of Kobe. Where have you been?

Yup.

3 Finals MVPs compared to 2 Finals MVPs
2 League MVP compared to 1 League MVP
If he gets a ring as the 2nd best player this year it just puts him even more ahead. Weirdly enough, his playoff PER is actually higher than Parker/Ginobili's so you could argue he's the best player on this team. He was definitely the best during the Clippers series.

[dynasty1978]

Look at the Lebron lovers trying act "objective" when it comes to Kobe and Duncan :lol

When Lebron wins his 1st ring, these same idiots will have him ranked top 10.

Frankly, you can order Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan however you wish and I won't argue it.

Supplanting any of those guys in the top 10 is going take at minimum, 3 championships and 3 Finals MVPs.

Good luck with that.

[Odinn]

As for their primes and accomplishments;
http://b1205.hizliresim.com/x/q/6fc4s.jpg

As for longevity; (being best player in the L)
1997-98; Duncan was top 5. Kobe wasn't top 5.
1998-99; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
1999-00; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe wasn't top 5.
2000-01; Duncan was top3. Kobe was top3.
2001-02; Duncan was top2(Shaq or Duncan). Kobe was top5.
2002-03; Duncan was the best. Kobe was top5.
2003-04; Duncan was the 2nd. Kobe was top5.
2004-05; Duncan was the best. Kobe wasn't top5.
2005-06; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2006-07; Duncan was top2. Kobe was top2. (po; Duncan - rs; Kobe)
2007-08; Duncan was top5. Kobe was the best.
2008-09; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(2nd or 3rd, depends on Wade).
2009-10; Duncan wasn't top5. Kobe was top3(depends on Wade&Durant).
2010-11; Both of them wasn't top 5.
2011-12; Duncan isn't top 5. Kobe is top 5.

Duncan was a top 5 player for 11 straight seasons. Top 3 player for 8 seasons.
Kobe was a top 5 player for 10 seasons. Top 3 player for 6 seasons.

When their career are over, I think Kobe will have the edge on longevity. But right now, he doesn't have.

I'd take 2003 Duncan over any version of Kobe. As for peaks;
It's playoffs vs. regular season.
Kobe averaged 35.4 - 5.3 - 4.5 - 1.8 - 0.4 in 2005-06 regular season. He made the playoffs with one of the weakest supporting cast for a playoff team.
Duncan averaged 24.7 - 15.4 - 5.3 - 0.6 - 3.3 in 2003 playoffs. He made one of the greatest title(playoff) runs ever. He won it all with one of the weakest supporting cast for a championship team.
If we extend span, to 3 years, I'd rather have '01-'03 Duncan over '06-'08 Kobe.

Duncan has the edge on being a better playoff performer.

As for peak and prime; Duncan > Kobe. As for accomplishments/accolades; Duncan > Kobe. If Kobe gains the edge on longevity, still it'd remain debatable.

(I will make copy/paste in Duncan-Bryant threads until start of the 12/13 NBA season.:D )

[dynasty1978]

As for their primes and accomplishments;
http://b1205.hizliresim.com/x/q/6fc4s.jpg

As for peak and prime; Duncan > Kobe. As for accomplishments/accolades; Duncan > Kobe. If Kobe gains the edge on longevity, still it'd remain debatable.

(I will make copy/paste in Duncan-Bryant threads until start of the 12/13 NBA season.:D )


Nicely done, although I have to ask. Given Duncan's dominance and resume, how is he not ranked ahead of Bird (who many have top 6)?

It's like the elephant in the room that few want to address.

[Quickening]

Look at the Lebron lovers trying act "objective" when it comes to Kobe and Duncan :lol

When Lebron wins his 1st ring, these same idiots will have him ranked top 10.

Frankly, you can order Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan however you wish and I won't argue it.

Supplanting any of those guys in the top 10 is going take at minimum, 3 championships and 3 Finals MVPs.

Good luck with that.

Why would Lebron need 3 FMVPs.. if he leads Miami to two championships, gets 2 fmvps... then he will like have 4 mvps, 2 finals mvps to Kobe 1 and 2.

Coupled with Lebrons superior numbers, taking a scrub team to the finals, he will definately go above Kobe in the rankings.

Kobe being carried to his first 3 championships doesn't mean a huge amount.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You have to put the rings into perspective.

Playoff runs:

Kobe Bryant
'00: 21.1-4.5-4.4-.470 eFG% (Championship)
'01: 29.4-7.3-6.1-.485 eFG% (Championship)
'02: 26.6-5.8-4.6-.459 eFG% (Championship)
'04: 24.5-4.7-5.5-.439 eFG% (Finals)
'08: 30.1-5.7-5.6-.514 eFG% (Finals)
'09: 30.2-5.3-5.5-.492 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'10: 29.2-6.0-5.5-.506 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)

Tim Duncan
'99: 23.2-11.5-2.8-.511 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'03: 24.7-15.4-5.3-.529 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'05: 23.6-12.4-2.7-.465 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'07: 22.2-11.5-3.3-.521 eFG% (Championship)

Even though Kobe didn't win Finals MVP in '01, that run was better than 3 of Duncan's ('99, '05, '07)
Plus Kobe has repeated multiple times, while Duncan has never.

[konex]

If he gets a ring as the 2nd best player this year

How exactly is Duncan the 2nd best player on this team? :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Yup.

3 Finals MVPs compared to 2 Finals MVPs
2 League MVP compared to 1 League MVP
If he gets a ring as the 2nd best player this year it just puts him even more ahead. Weirdly enough, his playoff PER is actually higher than Parker/Ginobili's so you could argue he's the best player on this team. He was definitely the best during the Clippers series.
Thats like equating Rip Hamilton's ring with the Pistons in 04 to Kobe's in 09/10 or Dirk's last year, or Shaq's from 00 to 02.. just stupid.:oldlol: He's averaging 16/9 and thats likely to go down as competition goes up.

[N0Skillz]

How exactly is Duncan the 2nd best player on this team? :confusedshrug:



Have you seen Tony Parker?

[Deuce Bigalow]

If he gets a ring as the 2nd best player this year.
He's the 3rd best player on the Spurs

[tpols]

You have to put the rings into perspective.

Playoff runs:

Kobe Bryant
'00: 21.1-4.5-4.4-.470 eFG% (Championship)
'01: 29.4-7.3-6.1-.485 eFG% (Championship)
'02: 26.6-5.8-4.6-.459 eFG% (Championship)
'04: 24.5-4.7-5.5-.439 eFG% (Finals)
'08: 30.1-5.7-5.6-.514 eFG% (Finals)
'09: 30.2-5.3-5.5-.492 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'10: 29.2-6.0-5.5-.506 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)

Tim Duncan
'99: 23.2-11.5-2.8-.511 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'03: 24.7-15.4-5.3-.529 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'05: 23.6-12.4-2.7-.465 eFG% (Championship, Finals MVP)
'07: 22.2-11.5-3.3-.521 eFG% (Championship)

Even though Kobe didn't win Finals MVP in '01, that run was better than 3 of Duncan's ('99, '05, '07)
Plus Kobe has repeated multiple times, while Duncan has never.
Yup.. being 'the man' is very overrated when you're putting up 29/7/6.

29/7/6 is better than what most first options put up en route to championships.. Lebron right now will be lucky to average 29/7/6 through these playoffs.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe as a 2nd option during the first 3peat had a greater responsibility to the Lakers offense than Duncan flanked by his two Hall of fame guards.

The fact that prime Shaq was a better offensive force than young Kobe is irrelevant to a Kobe vs Duncan comparison.

[NumberSix]

Duncan > Kobe. Not close.

[andgar923]

ROFL the goof troop is out in full brigade.

They mad.:roll:

[konex]

Have you seen Tony Parker?

I've also seen Manu. He's the 2nd best player on the team, not Duncan ;)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yup.. being 'the man' is very overrated when you're putting up 29/7/6.

29/7/6 is better than what most first options put up en route to championships.. Lebron right now will be lucky to average 29/7/6 through these playoffs.
Yup. Plus Kobe was every bit as much as the man as Shaq in the 4th quarters of the '01 and '02 championships.
He led the Lakers in 4th quarter points those two postseasons

Interesting facts about the 2002 2nd round series vs San Antonio

Game 4:

4th Quarter
Kobe - 12
Spurs - 10

He hit the game winner with 5.1 sec remaining to give the Lakers a 3-1 lead.
And the game before that? Kobe scored 11 points in the 4th quarter on 5/5 shooting in game 3 giving the Lakers a 2-1 series lead.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan > Kobe. Not close.
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

[iDefend5]

A LeBron fan who will do anything to devalue Kobe.

He has 5 rings.


Ah typical ISH. Someone gets butthurt so they immedietly attack the persons favorite team/player even when it's irrelevant to the discussion. Pretty sure OP doesn't have LeBron ranked over Duncan either so I don't see how this is to gain credibility for LeBron.

Duncan is clearly better. That Odin guy posted a great image. Duncans team has consistantly been 50 wins+ since he was drafted and the ONLY constant on the roster has been Tim Duncan. Kobe proved when Shaq was traded he cannot carry teams as seen by his miraculous 0 playoff series victories post Shaq and pre-Gasol. Now that Gasol has declined and is no longer a top 3 bigman in the league Kobe is looking for someone else's **** to ride. Dwight Howard anyone?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah typical ISH. Someone gets butthurt so they immedietly attack the persons favorite team/player even when it's irrelevant to the discussion. Pretty sure OP doesn't have LeBron ranked over Duncan either so I don't see how this is to gain credibility for LeBron.

Duncan is clearly better. That Odin guy posted a great image. Duncans team has consistantly been 50 wins+ since he was drafted and the ONLY constant on the roster has been Tim Duncan. Kobe proved when Shaq was traded he cannot carry teams as seen by his miraculous 0 playoff series victories post Shaq and pre-Gasol. Now that Gasol has declined and is no longer a top 3 bigman in the league Kobe is looking for someone else's **** to ride. Dwight Howard anyone?

The greatness of Kobe Bryant can no better be defined than the expectation that he should be good enough to win championships on his own. Kobe won 5 rings with one other HOF player per title team, if Duncan gets his 5 it will be 2 per title team for him. Are you telling me the contributions of Shaq OR Gasol are greater than Tony Parker AND Manu Ginobli. ? Do you see any other star players winning multiple championships with only one other star/HOF player?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Finals MVP. Robert Horry is a 7x Champion. Prime John Havlicek was also a good NBA player. His team won 9 NBA Championships, but you never see some jerk offs rank him ahead of Hakeem and Bird. LeBron will win an NBA Finals MVP. He's better than that @$$hole.
/thread

[amfirst]

I have Kobe above Duncan. Why because Parker was clearly the best player on the Spurs for the last two Championships that they won. :confusedshrug:

It is what it is...

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

just be glad you're enjoying an era that included shaq/duncan/kobe/lebron/wade/dwight/yao/tmac/vince c/iverson.:bowdown: :bowdown: lets worry about the rankings in like 10 years.

[Odinn]

I have Kobe above Duncan. Why because Parker was clearly the best player on the Spurs for the last two Championships that they won. :confusedshrug:

It is what it is...
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[creepingdeath]

I have Kobe above Duncan. Why because Parker was clearly the best player on the Spurs for the last two Championships that they won. :confusedshrug:

It is what it is...
http://static.tumblr.com/crw0vck/IPYlz2tmn/sexyjack.gif

[rmt]

I've also seen Manu. He's the 2nd best player on the team, not Duncan ;)

Some of you Kobe fans must have started watching the Spurs in the OKC series. Y'all missed the whole regular season and the first 2 rounds.

As far as Parker being the best player on the past TWO championships - bite your tongue. Unlike Kobe, who was the man on 2 championships, Duncan was THE MAN on all four championships.

[Blue&Orange]

2001 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html), 2002 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html), 2004 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_WCS.html), 2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_WCF.html).
I get it, 4 Kobe finals, with finals MVP's being Shaq twice, Billups and Pierce.

GOAT without a doubt.


Oh you were trying to use a TEAM achievement against Duncan? Double fail i guess.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I get it, 4 Kobe finals, with finals MVP's being Shaq twice, Billups and Pierce.

GOAT without a doubt.


Oh you were trying to use a TEAM achievement against Duncan? Double fail i guess.
Tell me, who was the 2nd best team in '01?

[NumberSix]

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg
Yeah, Kobe Bryant is by far the most popular player. Who would even argue that? Of course he's gonna win a online poll.

[NumberSix]

I have Kobe above Duncan. Why because Parker was clearly the best player on the Spurs for the last two Championships that they won. :confusedshrug:

It is what it is...
This is beyond hilarious. :oldlol: You MUST have done this on purpose.

[StateOfMind12]

It's understandable to rank Kobe above Duncan but I probably have Duncan ranked ahead of Kobe in the all-time list. They're neck and neck in my opinion but I would give Duncan the slight edge.

I'm assuming the main reason why people rank Kobe ahead of Duncan is because of how much better Kobe was offensively than Duncan. Duncan was better than Kobe at every other aspect of the game though.

Duncan has the intangibles advantage over Kobe as well.

I always find it funny when Kobe fans argue that Kobe is this loyal guy that isn't a locker room problem when this guy was begging for a trade in 2007 and 2008 before Gasol came to LA.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have Duncan over Kobe, most in the media would disagree, and I can see a bit of a case for Kobe, even though Kobe's true prime was from '03-'09, imo, he was already pretty comprable to a prime Duncan in '01, and to a lesser extent '02.


Yup. Plus Kobe was every bit as much as the man as Shaq in the 4th quarters of the '01 and '02 championships.
He led the Lakers in 4th quarter points those two postseasons

Well, 4th quarters weren't really a big factor in the '01 playoffs, neither did anything special in the 4th during that run because neither had to. Kobe did step up and have great 4th quarters in the '02 run, though, and it was important because Shaq struggled in the 4th during a good chunk of that run, especially the '02 series where he was the MVP of a series featuring the 2 best players in the league(Shaq and Duncan), and had great 4th quarters, while both Shaq and Duncan struggled offensively in the 4th.

The one difference about Kobe in '01 and '02 compared to his recent runs, or Duncan's runs, is that Kobe usually faced single coverage and wasn't the primary focus of opposing team's defenses. But his production and status in the league at the time(top 3) makes it difficult to write off as simply a "sidekick" ring.

Same with others like McHale in '86(25/8/3, 2.4 bpg, 58 FG%, + great defensive, especially on Nique).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's understandable to rank Kobe above Duncan but I probably have Duncan ranked ahead of Kobe in the all-time list. They're neck and neck in my opinion but I would give Duncan the slight edge.

I'm assuming the main reason why people rank Kobe ahead of Duncan is because of how much better Kobe was offensively than Duncan. Duncan was better than Kobe at every other aspect of the game though.

Duncan has the intangibles advantage over Kobe as well.

I always find it funny when Kobe fans argue that Kobe is this loyal guy that isn't a locker room problem when this guy was begging for a trade in 2007 and 2008 before Gasol came to LA.

He is a locker room problem because he created the pressure that resulted in trading for Gasol which led to 2 more championships?

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor the Lakers would probably still be trotting out Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.

[The Choken One]

Top 10 ranks are heavily influenced by opinion and what accomplishments are most important to someone...

I personally have Kobe>Duncan>Shaq just to name those 3. Duncan is great... but in my eyes what Kobe does and has been doing for so long simply amazes me.

[CavaliersFTW]

ROFL the goof troop is out in full brigade.

They mad.:roll:

"Duncan is better than Kobe"



Majority of ISH:
http://holykkphils.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/chuck-norris-approved.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zVOp5DlQ2MQ/TzO4rBdXZLI/AAAAAAAAAt4/qwC2MHP-xKA/s1600/approval-people-clapping.gif
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo336/gya0ma7ha/Gifs/approval.gif
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9QjARWd5a84/T3OXHJJbe1I/AAAAAAAAA34/OVtLNvwpMvI/s1600/nod-of-approval.gif

















Outspoken Kobe fan with dozens of accounts:
http://www.gifsoup.com/view5/2508029/kobestan-o.gif

[General]

I rank Kobe ahead of Duncan. Duncan won one of his championships in a 50 game season, hardly impressive and it definitely hurts his rank for me. He's about to win one as a third option:oldlol:

[StateOfMind12]

He is a locker room problem because he created the pressure that resulted in trading for Gasol which led to 2 more championships?

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor the Lakers would probably still be trotting out Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.
You are right. I'm sure if Kobe didn't request for a trade to the Lakers, the Lakers wouldn't have made the Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol deal. I'm sure they would have kept Kwame Brown instead but because of that pressure Kobe gave them with his trade request, the Lakers were forced to agree.

/sarcasm.

[oolalaa]

I have Duncan over Kobe, most in the media would disagree, and I can see a bit of a case for Kobe, even though Kobe's true prime was from '03-'09, imo, he was already pretty comprable to a prime Duncan in '01, and to a lesser extent '02.



Well, 4th quarters weren't really a big factor in the '01 playoffs, neither did anything special in the 4th during that run because neither had to. Kobe did step up and have great 4th quarters in the '02 run, though, and it was important because Shaq struggled in the 4th during a good chunk of that run, especially the '02 series where he was the MVP of a series featuring the 2 best players in the league(Shaq and Duncan), and had great 4th quarters, while both Shaq and Duncan struggled offensively in the 4th.

The one difference about Kobe in '01 and '02 compared to his recent runs, or Duncan's runs, is that Kobe usually faced single coverage and wasn't the primary focus of opposing team's defenses. But his production and status in the league at the time(top 3) makes it difficult to write off as simply a "sidekick" ring.

Same with others like McHale in '86(25/8/3, 2.4 bpg, 58 FG%, + great defensive, especially on Nique).

Agreed with everything but I'll just nitpick the bolded.

McHale was definitely a "sidekick". We can never know for sure, but I'm convinced Bird's all time great playmaking/passing added 2 or 3 points to his ppg totals as well as 3/4 percent on top of his already great FG%. I know that McHale often lauded Bird's ability to find him under the hoop for wide open layups/dunks, particuarly during the '86 playoffs.

The difference between his '88 and '89 seasons gives you an idea. His ppg stayed the same but his FG% dropped by almost 6%! And in the 1st round vs Detroit, with him being the focus of Boston's offense, he only managed 19ppg on a measly 49% shooting, compared to 27ppg on 56% in the ECFs the pervious year.


McHale was very good but it was Bird who turned him into a borderline superstar.

[andgar923]

I rank Kobe ahead of Duncan. Duncan won one of his championships in a 50 game season, hardly impressive and it definitely hurts his rank for me. He's about to win one as a third option:oldlol:

Kobe didn't win it tho, you mad?

[General]

You are right. I'm sure if Kobe didn't request for a trade to the Lakers, the Lakers wouldn't have made the Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol deal. I'm sure they would have kept Kwame Brown instead but because of that pressure Kobe gave them with his trade request, the Lakers were forced to agree.

/sarcasm.
The Lakers were content and were just milking the cash cow that is Kobe Bryant. When Bryant threatened to leave if he didn't have a competitive team around him the front office then started looking to improve the team.

"Do something and do it now" :bowdown:

[dtbrehm]

Not sure if these people who keep linking that NBA poll in Duncan vs. Kobe debates are trolling or just stupid.

[Carbine]

I've also seen Manu. He's the 2nd best player on the team, not Duncan ;)

Manu is too inconsistent. One game he will look like the best or second best player on the team, other games he's just another guy on the deep Spurs team.

Duncan is always rebounding, always a factor around the hoop protecting the rim even when he's marginal scoring the basketball (like last night)

Duncan is clearly their second best player.

[Carbine]

Just to throw the numbers out there for these playoffs.

Duncan - 17ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3 apg and 2 bpg

Manu - 13.5 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 4.3 apg y

[amfirst]

Duncan was good in the early 2000 but dude is not great no more. He is just a discent player. Tony Parker, that dude is amazing. Kobe carries a much bigger load than Duncan has to.

[General]

Kobe didn't win it tho, you mad?
Nope. Kobe merked Duncan and the Spurs in the Western Conference Finals two years later. He was the MVP of the series with an average of 33 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists. Everyone knows the WCF were the real finals. To top it off, it was in an 82 game season:oldlol:

[andgar923]

Duncan was good in the early 2000 but dude is not great no more. He is just a discent player. Tony Parker, that dude is amazing. Kobe carries a much bigger load than Duncan has to.

Kobe fans.:rolleyes:

[Odinn]

Nope. Kobe merked Duncan and the Spurs in the Western Conference Finals two years later. He was the MVP of the series with an average of 33 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists. Everyone knows the WCF were the real finals. To top it off, it was in an 82 game season:oldlol:
What are you smoking?

[andgar923]

Nope. Kobe merked Duncan and the Spurs in the Western Conference Finals two years later. He was the MVP of the series with an average of 33 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists. Everyone knows the WCF were the real finals. To top it off, it was in an 82 game season:oldlol:

But THEY didn't win, the Spurs did.

You idiot.

[amfirst]

If I was to draft Duncan or Kobe. I got Kobe. Kobe only needs a additional allstar player to win a ring. With Duncan u need a lot of pieces around him, like great three point shooters, a superstar pg, and star wingman.

[Odinn]

If I was to draft Duncan or Kobe. I got Kobe. Kobe only needs a additional allstar player to win a ring. With Duncan u need a lot of pieces around him, like great three point shooters, a superstar pg, and star wingman.
Duncan's playoff run in 2003 makes you a proven idiot.

[General]

But THEY didn't win, the Spurs did.

You idiot.
I said I wasn't mad because Kobe merked Duncan two years later. Lakers swept the Spurs in 2001 WCF two years later:wtf:

[Carbine]

If I was to draft Duncan or Kobe. I got Kobe. Kobe only needs a additional allstar player to win a ring. With Duncan u need a lot of pieces around him, like great three point shooters, a superstar pg, and star wingman.

This makes no sense at all.

[CavaliersFTW]

If I was to draft Duncan or Kobe. I got Kobe. Kobe only needs a additional allstar player to win a ring. With Duncan u need a lot of pieces around him, like great three point shooters, a superstar pg, and star wingman.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Snoop_Cat]

If I was to draft Duncan or Kobe. I got Kobe. Kobe only needs a additional allstar player to win a ring. With Duncan u need a lot of pieces around him, like great three point shooters, a superstar pg, and star wingman.

This is a joke right. Kobe needs to have one of the, if not the best front court to win. Look at Kobe when he had mediocre teams, his teams has done absolutely miserable.

Duncan has carried arguably the worst team to an NBA title ever, alongside with Hakeem.

Duncan even at this age is clearly the second best player on the Spurs.

[amfirst]

Not to mention Kobe lead teams have been owning Duncan lead team in the playoffs. That alone should seperate them.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Comparing players that play different positions is hard because their responsabilities are very different. Apples and oranges.

I've never understood the ISH obsession with ranking players. Who gives a shit where any of us rank Duncan or Kobe? Nobody.

[General]

What are you smoking?
What? Point out where you disagree, or did you just misunderstand what I wrote?:confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

I said I wasn't mad because Kobe merked Duncan two years later. Lakers swept the Spurs in 2001 WCF two years later:wtf:

But you still missed the whole point. You made it a point to diminish Duncan's ring due to the short season, but the Lakers didn't win it. Who cares if the Lakers won 2 years later or next season, point was they lost that season.

[LamarOdom]

I have Duncan over Kobe, most in the media would disagree, and I can see a bit of a case for Kobe, even though Kobe's true prime was from '03-'09, imo, he was already pretty comprable to a prime Duncan in '01, and to a lesser extent '02.



Well, 4th quarters weren't really a big factor in the '01 playoffs, neither did anything special in the 4th during that run because neither had to. Kobe did step up and have great 4th quarters in the '02 run, though, and it was important because Shaq struggled in the 4th during a good chunk of that run, especially the '02 series where he was the MVP of a series featuring the 2 best players in the league(Shaq and Duncan), and had great 4th quarters, while both Shaq and Duncan struggled offensively in the 4th.

The one difference about Kobe in '01 and '02 compared to his recent runs, or Duncan's runs, is that Kobe usually faced single coverage and wasn't the primary focus of opposing team's defenses. But his production and status in the league at the time(top 3) makes it difficult to write off as simply a "sidekick" ring.

Same with others like McHale in '86(25/8/3, 2.4 bpg, 58 FG%, + great defensive, especially on Nique).

Great post as usual:applause: ''

[General]

But you still missed the whole point. You made it a point to diminish Duncan's ring due to the short season, but the Lakers didn't win it. Who cares if the Lakers won 2 years later or next season, point was they lost that season.
My point was that a championship in a 50 game season loses some it's value. I still stand by that if that's what you mean. Kobe was not the same player in 1998/1999 that he was in 2001.

[andgar923]

My point was that a championship in a 50 game season loses some it's value. I still stand by that if that's what you mean. Kobe was not the same player in 1998/1999 that he was in 2001.

Its fair to say that Kobe wasn't the same player,but neither was Duncan.

[Odinn]

Of course Kobe-stans will claim an asterisk over 1999 title but you still have to win 4 rounds / 15-16 games. It doesn't take anything. They always try to make look better Kobe by discrediting his rivals(Shaq&Duncan).

[CavaliersFTW]

My point was that a championship in a 50 game season loses some it's value. I still stand by that if that's what you mean. Kobe was not the same player in 1998/1999 that he was in 2001.

Are you seriously this stupid? If winning a shortened season devalues a title to you because it is somehow lesser/easier in your mind, than losing said season is only going to make Kobe seem worse for not being able to win it :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You are right. I'm sure if Kobe didn't request for a trade to the Lakers, the Lakers wouldn't have made the Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol deal. I'm sure they would have kept Kwame Brown instead but because of that pressure Kobe gave them with his trade request, the Lakers were forced to agree.

/sarcasm.

This isn't a videogame. Trading for Pau Gasol was a 9 figure decision. I have no doubt that the Lakers owners would have made more money waiting on Marc Gasol instead.

[BlackVVaves]

This whole devalue Kobe in an indirect attempt to bolster Lebron thing is getting old.

Some people have Kobe ranked higher. Some people have Duncan ranked higher. Usually they are right after the other, 8 or 9. And both have points. They are both Top 10 All Time, so this facade OP is trying to manifest to generate hate filled "discussion" towards Kobe is clear, obvious, and a fail.

Kobe has owned Duncan in the playoffs since Shaq left town. And, his last two rings as the undisputed Alpha, number option, on the team, are weighted heavier than Duncan's last one (and possibly two, if the Spurs go on to win a ring this year) when looking at the surrounding role players on the team. Parker, Ginobli, Bowen, and their entire roster from 2-10 this year, > Gasol and Bynum.

Still, Duncan is the greatest Power Foward to ever play the game. And has 3 FMVPs in comparison to Kobe's 2.

Regardless, you can't go wrong either way, and true fans of the game understand why. Duncan and Kobe, along with Shaq, have easily been the best players and had the best careers of the post-Jordan, 2000s era. Like someone said earlier, if someone, like Lebron for instance, wishes to top those three players in the Top 10, All-Time GOAT list, he better be bringing at least 3 rings to the table.

[Artillery]

Thats like equating Rip Hamilton's ring with the Pistons in 04 to Kobe's in 09/10 or Dirk's last year, or Shaq's from 00 to 02.. just stupid.:oldlol: He's averaging 16/9 and thats likely to go down as competition goes up.

Rip Hamilton(throughout 2004 playoffs): 21.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg on 45%

Kobe(throughout 2000 playoffs): 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpgs, 4.4 apg on 44%

[Artillery]

He is a locker room problem because he created the pressure that resulted in trading for Gasol which led to 2 more championships?

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor the Lakers would probably still be trotting out Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, he never would have ran Shaq/Jackson out of LA in '04. If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, LA probably wins against Detroit in the '04 Finals(Kobe's ballhog mentality would be replaced by Duncan's team first mentality).

[Artillery]

My point was that a championship in a 50 game season loses some it's value. I still stand by that if that's what you mean. Kobe was not the same player in 1998/1999 that he was in 2001.

And the Spurs were not the same team in '01 that they were in '99. Sean Elliot was battling kidney disease, Robinson was washed up, Derek Anderson could barely make it onto the court against the Lakers after picking up a bad injury in the second round from a dirty Juwan Howard foul.

[chazzy]

Weirdly enough, his playoff PER is actually higher than Parker/Ginobili's so you could argue he's the best player on this team.
He's not. The Spurs are a juggernaut offensive team with Parker running the show. He's clearly the 2nd best player though.

[Artillery]

He's not. The Spurs are a juggernaut offensive team with Parker running the show. He's clearly the 2nd best player though.

Best player in the Clippers series :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, he never would have ran Shaq/Jackson out of LA in '04. If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, LA probably wins against Detroit in the '04 Finals(Kobe's ballhog mentality would be replaced by Duncan's team first mentality).

Is Duncan a master mediator who can negotiate on behalf on Shaq and Jackson when it comes to money and the Buss family?

The awkward truth about the 04 Finals is that Kobe was the Lakers 2nd most efficient scorer after Shaq. So unless Duncan is planning on inspiring Shaq to score 80 pts a game, he's not going to help :confusedshrug:

[Artillery]

Kobe has owned Duncan in the playoffs since Shaq left town.

Nash's team have owned Kobe's teams in the playoffs. Nash is clearly>>>>>Bryant

:oldlol:


And, his last two rings as the undisputed Alpha, number option, on the team, are weighted heavier than Duncan's last one (and possibly two, if the Spurs go on to win a ring this year) when looking at the surrounding role players on the team. Parker, Ginobli, Bowen, and their entire roster from 2-10 this year, > Gasol and Bynum.

Duncan was the only All-NBA player on the 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Spurs teams. He was clearly the best player. Compare that to Kobe having another All-NBA teammate on every one of his championship teams(Shaq for 00-02, Gasol '09-'10)

And lol at being weighed heavier. Gasol's win shares were higher than Kobe's throughout the 2010 playoffs. Their PERs was nearly identical. Duncan PER and win shares were well ahead of anyone else on the 2007 Spurs.

[swi7ch]

Some fans also think Kobe > Jordan :facepalm

These are almost always kids who started watching basketball in the 2000s and have no clue how much Jordan DOMINATED in an era that played true physical basketball.

[Big#50]

This thread again.
Kobe can be compared to Wade, Lebron, TMAC, Barkley, Iverson, Dirk, KG, Malone and other second tier greats.
The dude won rings with the most dominant player ever. Then won with the best team in the league. He never once came close to doing what Tim did In 03. Not even close. Not even in the same neighborhood of close.
Stop arguing with Kobestans for the love of God.

[General]

Some fans also think Kobe > Jordan :facepalm

These are almost always kids who started watching basketball in the 2000s and have no clue how much Jordan DOMINATED in an era that played true physical basketball.
No one has mentioned Jordan in this thread:rolleyes: Let's not act like saying Kobe is better than Duncan is the same as saying Kobe is better than Jordan.

[macpierce]

This thread again.
Kobe can be compared to Wade, Lebron, TMAC, Barkley, Iverson, Dirk, KG, Malone and other second tier greats.
The dude won rings with the most dominant player ever. Then won with the best team in the league. He never once came close to doing what Tim did In 03. Not even close. Not even in the same neighborhood of close.
Stop arguing with Kobestans for the love of God.

And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?

:oldlol:

[Odinn]

And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?

:oldlol:
Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:

Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:

[Big#50]

And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?

:oldlol:
His career isn't done. This Spurs team should be just as good next year. Probably even better.
Kobe is a high volume shooter. That's It.

[bwink23]

Agreed with everything but I'll just nitpick the bolded.

McHale was definitely a "sidekick". We can never know for sure, but I'm convinced Bird's all time great playmaking/passing added 2 or 3 points to his ppg totals as well as 3/4 percent on top of his already great FG%. I know that McHale often lauded Bird's ability to find him under the hoop for wide open layups/dunks, particuarly during the '86 playoffs.

The difference between his '88 and '89 seasons gives you an idea. His ppg stayed the same but his FG% dropped by almost 6%! And in the 1st round vs Detroit, with him being the focus of Boston's offense, he only managed 19ppg on a measly 49% shooting, compared to 27ppg on 56% in the ECFs the pervious year.


McHale was very good but it was Bird who turned him into a borderline superstar.


Pretty sure McHale was having bad foot problems around then.

[macpierce]

Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:

Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:

So he retires with 5 chips, 2 FMVPs, and one regular season MVP

I'm sure he's crying at night about it :D

[BlackVVaves]

Nash's team have owned Kobe's teams in the playoffs. Nash is clearly>>>>>Bryant

:oldlol:



Duncan was the only All-NBA player on the 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Spurs teams. He was clearly the best player. Compare that to Kobe having another All-NBA teammate on every one of his championship teams(Shaq for 00-02, Gasol '09-'10)

And lol at being weighed heavier. Gasol's win shares were higher than Kobe's throughout the 2010 playoffs. Their PERs was nearly identical. Duncan PER and win shares were well ahead of anyone else on the 2007 Spurs.

Hey, what's up dickhead.

If Nash and Kobe were even comparable, with close or equal rings, FMVPs, AS appearances, All NBA First teams, ect, them yes, their head to head match ups WOULD matter. But, they're not. So, the comparison is useless.

People look at head to head match ups in the playoffs, especially when in the same conference and title contenders, when trying to evaluate the difference between two closely ranked players. Ever heard of logic?

Win shares, PER. If you truly think that Kobe's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010 were better than Duncan's in 2007 and, if he gets his 5th in a few weeks, this year, than you already have a spear-headed agenda that I'm not going to waste prime time hours addressing.

And, like I already said, Duncan is the greatest PF of all time, and gets the nod in many scenarios, and rightfully so.

[Punpun]

Because unlike Duncan, Kobe is the first option. Not the fifth. :oldlol::roll::oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:

Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:
Bird made it to 4 Finals in a row from '84-'87
Duncan has never made it to the Finals back to back years, every other top 10 player has.

[triangleoffense]

Not sure, why did Lebron score 2 points or less in 4 straight finals 4th quarters when his team needed him the most?

[oolalaa]

Pretty sure McHale was having bad foot problems around then.

He fractured his foot late in the '87 regular season, played the whole playoffs with a broken right foot, and yet still managed to put up a 21/9 on 58%! :eek: :bowdown: He had surgery in the offseason but was never quite the same after that - he lost some lateral mobility which affected his defence, especially.

But, next season, with Bird pulling the strings and having his best regular season to date, he still managed a 22/8/3 on 60% shooting. Then, the very next year, with no notable injuries and Bird out for the whole season, his efficiency took a massive hit. Coincidence? No way.

[SCdac]

Interesting poll from the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-tim-duncan-kobe-bryant-20120530,0,6883592.story

51.7% of the voters say Duncan has had a better career... compared to 48.3% for Kobe.

Personally, I'd take Duncan for sure. Epitome of a franchise player.

[onhcetum]

Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close. This current season is only reminding us of Duncan's greatness and whether or not they win, Duncan will still be better than Kobe, and here's why. If spurs do win, it's just gravy at that point. it's officially over and case is closed on Duncan > Kobe

- 13 seasons straight of 50+ wins
- never missing the playoffs since he was drafted
- best winning percentage of the four major sports since he was drafted
- 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP, 4 titles

Also, do you kids not play basketball or something? Do you know how hard/demoralizing to get your shot stuffed/altered every time you go into the paint and not be able to GET ANYTHING INSIDE the paint? How frustrating it is to have a guy on the other team that gets every rebound? There's another half to the game called DEFENSE, and Duncan has been the defensive anchor of that team since he was drafted. Heck, when was the last time the Spurs even had a legit center? Btw 6'8" Old man Kurt Thomas. 6'7" Old man McDyss don't count and 6'6" Dajuan Blair don't count.

Enough with this longevity shit LOL. Kobe came outta high school at aged 17, while Duncan stayed for 4 years in college. No shit, Kobe is gonna hold these longevity records or this made-up/reaching "most points in a 16th season" bullshit statistics. If you wanna play like that, let's hypothetically give Duncan 4 more seasons of 22-25ppg, 12-13rebounds, and 2-3 blocks per game... that would vault him top 5 in both REBOUNDING AND SCORING.

- top 5 in rebounding in the playoffs
- top 10 in scoring in playoffs
- all time blocks leader in the playoffs

I won't even get started on statistics and accolades... btw the only thing Kobe might be better than Duncan is scoring, but lets not pretend like Duncan couldn't score... in his prime, he averaged 22-25ppg and is top 5 in scoring in the playoffs.

Kobe 2005-2007... enough said, missing the playoffs, ~40+ win mediocre team. He even missed the playoffs once. Without a dominant big man and a dominant frontline, kobe aint won jack. All he did was whine and cry and demand a trade. Kobe can't put a team on his back. At this point, I'm not even sure if I have him above Dwight Howard, Lebron James, and Allen Iverson at this point... all of these players were drafted by teams that won ~20 games the year before, and took their teams to the finals and completely turned their teams around (~55+ wins + finals appearance) in less than 5 years.

ALSO LOL @ owning Kobe. I didn't know Duncan guarded Kobe head to head. btw 1999, 2003? what happened in 2005? oh wait, la didnt even make the finals.

[Punpun]

Duncan never won anything without Pop. So overrated amirite ?

[SCdac]

Duncan never won anything without Pop. So overrated amirite ?

Are you implying Kobe won a championship without Phil Jackson...?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

.

- top 5 in rebounding in the playoffs
- top 10 in scoring in playoffs
- all time blocks leader in the playoffs



:oldlol:

How about...

- top 4 in assists in the playoffs
- all time scoring leader in the playoffs

[Odinn]

Are you implying Kobe won a championship without Phil Jackson...?
Backfired.:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause: :banana:

[onhcetum]

:oldlol:

How about...

- top 4 in assists in the playoffs
- all time scoring leader in the playoffs

LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe may edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?

kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe may edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?

kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)

Shockingly Kobe edges Duncan in everything a guard normally is better at a center at.

:rolleyes:

Dribbling, driving, assisting, perimeter defense, stealing, jump shooting, three point shooting etc...

If we are supposed to be impressed by Duncan likely all time playoff block record (yet we all know Wilt and Russell would have had more had those numbers been recorded) and top 10 scoring ... what are we supposed to do with Kobe's likely place in history as the all time scoring leader in the playoffs and a top 4 passer.?

[magnax1]

LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe may edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?

kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)
Kobe is not marginally better then Duncan as a scorer. As far as all time greats go, Duncan was just not that fantastic offensively. In his prime (00-05) He averaged 23 ppg on 55 TS%, compared to Kobe averaging 30 ppg on 57 TS% (06-09) That's 7 more ppg on a higher shooting %

[onhcetum]

Shockingly Kobe edges Duncan in everything a guard normally is better at a center at.

:rolleyes:

Dribbling, driving, assisting, perimeter defense, stealing, jump shooting, three point shooting etc...

If we are supposed to be impressed by Duncan likely all time playoff block record (yet we all know Wilt and Russell would have had more had those numbers been recorded) and top 10 scoring ... what are we supposed to do with Kobe's likely place in history as the all time scoring leader in the playoffs and a top 4 passer.?

wilt and russell are like #2/3/4 ALL TIME respectively by most analysts and experts so whatever, so what if hes top3 all time in blocks, doesnt change anything to be honest

all im saying is duncan > defense BY A WIDE MARGIN. go read my piece about playing defense. I'm fairly certain 75% of the posters on these forums dont even PLAY BASKETBALL REGULARLY so you really wouldnt know anything about defense. you guys just sit on the forums all day and look like john clayton.

you're right about kobe being better than duncan at what a guard is suppose to be better at. All I'm saying is that, let's not act like duncan was offensively challenged by ANY STANDARD. if the Spurs needed a basketball, they dumped it into Duncan. But 50% of basketball is on the defensive end, Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale for me and I gotta put duncan ahead of kobe all time

[Yao Ming's Foot]

wilt and russell are like #2/3/4 ALL TIME respectively by most analysts and experts so whatever, so what if hes top3 all time in blocks, doesnt change anything to be honest

all im saying is duncan > defense BY A WIDE MARGIN. go read my piece about playing defense. I'm fairly certain 75% of the posters on these forums dont even PLAY BASKETBALL REGULARLY so you really wouldnt know anything about defense. you guys just sit on the forums all day and look like john clayton.

you're right about kobe being better than duncan at what a guard is suppose to be better at. All I'm saying is that, let's not act like duncan was offensively challenged by ANY STANDARD. if the Spurs needed a basketball, they dumped it into Duncan. But 50% of basketball is on the defensive end, Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale for me and I gotta put duncan ahead of kobe all time

From

"Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close."

to

" Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale"

I have no beef with that opinion but its silly to pretend that Kobe isn't arguably right up there with anybody.
I

[onhcetum]

From

"Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close."

to

" Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale"

I have no beef with that opinion but its silly to pretend that Kobe isn't arguably right up there with anybody.
I

It's not close because Duncan's D just blows the debate wide open. Before, with all of the stats/accolades/1st team/all stars whatever -- EXCLUDING DEFENSE, it was close and debateable.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's not close because Duncan's D just blows the debate wide open. Before, with all of the stats/accolades/1st team/all stars whatever, it was close and debateable.

http://i.imgur.com/wHyCW.png

:confusedshrug:

[305Baller]

both greeat era players

[onhcetum]

http://i.imgur.com/wHyCW.png

:confusedshrug:

lol u cant be serious. im done with this debate after this post... so kobe's been the best guard defender... so what. how is that mutually exclusive to duncan being x10 the defensive presence that kobe is?

-top 5 in rebounding in playoffs
-all time leader in blocks

duncan controls the paint and grabs rebounds, blocks shots and alters many many more. night in and night out, hes banging in their with the other teams best big man. once again, spurs havent had a legitimate center in over 6-7 years... hes been the defensive anchor of that team since 1997.

Incoming defense: but, but duncans a center/forward while kobe's a guard! and thats expected (dominance on defense). well so be then, kobe and duncan cant control how tall/big they become. but then again... kobe's a slasher/dunker/dribbling/faster/jumps higher, so it evens out

[Yao Ming's Foot]

lol u cant be serious. im done with this debate after this post... so kobe's been the best guard defender... so what. how is that mutually exclusive to duncan being x10 the defensive presence that kobe is?

-top 5 in rebounding in playoffs
-all time leader in blocks

duncan controls the paint and grabs rebounds, blocks shots and alters many many more. night in and night out, hes banging in their with the other teams best big man. once again, spurs havent had a legitimate center in over 6-7 years... hes been the defensive anchor of that team since 1997.

You are not blowing me out of the water by repeating top 5 statistics and phony all time best accolades.

top 5 in steals in the the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 7 in assists in the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 3 in scoring in the playoffs (likely all time leader)

:confusedshrug:

How many DPOY awards did Duncan win?

[onhcetum]

You are not blowing me out of the water by repeating top 5 statistics and phony all time best accolades.

top 5 in steals in the the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 7 in assists in the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 3 in scoring in the playoffs (likely all time leader)

:confusedshrug:

How many DPOY awards did Duncan win?

top5 steals doesnt mean shit. I've already ceded that kobe is the better passer (in a vacuum but if we are comparing passing for a guard vs passing for a big, than he isnt that much better than duncan at passing). he can be #1 all time in steals by 2,000+ and it doesnt change the fact that duncan controls the paint and changes the game DEFENSIVELY. stop throwing these empty stats at me. I wish I didn't even mention the blocks/rebounds. You just needa watch basketball to know duncan is a game changer on the defensive end, altering shots/boxing out/blocks/rebounds/ and basically ANCHOR A DEFENSE that has lacked a legit center for years NOW. as good as kobe is as a perimeter defender, he is NOT WHERE NEAR AS dominant as duncan on the defensive end (yes, bc he's a big and kobe isn't. but that's life, you play the cards ur delt)

[tpols]

top5 steals doesnt mean shit. I've already ceded that kobe is the better passer (in a vacuum but if we are comparing passing for a guard vs passing for a big, than he isnt that much better than duncan at passing). he can be #1 all time in steals by 2,000+ and it doesnt change the fact that duncan controls the paint and changes the game DEFENSIVELY. stop throwing these empty stats at me. I wish I didn't even mention the blocks/rebounds. You just needa watch basketball to know duncan is a game changer on the defensive end, altering shots/boxing out/blocks/rebounds/ and basically ANCHOR A DEFENSE that has lacked a legit center for years NOW. as good as kobe is as a perimeter defender, he is NOT WHERE NEAR AS dominant as duncan on the defensive end (yes, bc he's a big and kobe isn't. but that's life, you play the cards ur delt)
LOL at the double standards you have set.

You admitted Kobe was the best guard defender, but said it fdoesnt mean anything because big men affect the game more on D, but then when someone says Kobe's the better passer it's well I guess so for a guard.:oldlol:

[onhcetum]

LOL at the double standards you have set.

You admitted Kobe was the best guard defender, but said it fdoesnt mean anything because big men affect the game more on D, but then when someone says Kobe's the better passer it's well I guess so for a guard.:oldlol:

I worded it wrong. You guys bring up passing and you act like duncan is some sort of klutz when in fact, he's a really good passer. thats all im trying to say.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What do analysts think?


Before the 2010 NBA finals began, Interbasket asked 54 sportswriters, analysts, and basketball experts from around the country to name the top 5 NBA players of all-time. Not a completely surprising list, but there are some interesting results.

1. Michael Jordan 50 of 54 (92.6%)
2. Magic Johnson 44 of 54 (81.5%)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 37 of 54 (68.5%)
4. Larry Bird 35 of 54 (64.8%)
5. Bill Russell 30 of 54 (55.6%)
6. Oscar Robertson 24 of 54 (44.4%)
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 of 54 (40.7%)
8. Kobe Bryant 10 of 54 (40.7%)

Kobe got 10 votes, Duncan 2.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/6831/2010/06/jordan-magic-bird-in-top-5-nba-players-all-time-kobe-bryant-8/


What do fans think?


SportsNation Rankings

rank. player. points

1.Michael Jordan 226,755
2.Magic Johnson 173,043
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 150,695
4.Wilt Chamberlain 138,446
5.Larry Bird 136,612
6.Bill Russell 122,451
7.Kobe Bryant 118,471
8.Shaquille O'Neal 89,786
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 68,392
10.Tim Duncan 48,706

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260

TNT Player of the Decade (2000-2009) Fan Vote

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

Kobe was better. Simple.

[Big#50]

What do analysts think?


Before the 2010 NBA finals began, Interbasket asked 54 sportswriters, analysts, and basketball experts from around the country to name the top 5 NBA players of all-time. Not a completely surprising list, but there are some interesting results.

1. Michael Jordan 50 of 54 (92.6%)
2. Magic Johnson 44 of 54 (81.5%)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 37 of 54 (68.5%)
4. Larry Bird 35 of 54 (64.8%)
5. Bill Russell 30 of 54 (55.6%)
6. Oscar Robertson 24 of 54 (44.4%)
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 of 54 (40.7%)
8. Kobe Bryant 10 of 54 (40.7%)

Kobe got 10 votes, Duncan 2.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/6831/2010/06/jordan-magic-bird-in-top-5-nba-players-all-time-kobe-bryant-8/


What do fans think?


SportsNation Rankings

rank. player. points

1.Michael Jordan 226,755
2.Magic Johnson 173,043
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 150,695
4.Wilt Chamberlain 138,446
5.Larry Bird 136,612
6.Bill Russell 122,451
7.Kobe Bryant 118,471
8.Shaquille O'Neal 89,786
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 68,392
10.Tim Duncan 48,706

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260

TNT Player of the Decade (2000-2009) Fan Vote

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

Kobe was better. Simple.
Yup. A chucker and a top five second tier player is better than a legit top 7 player.

[millwad]

Yup. A chucker and a top five second tier player is better than a legit top 7 player.

Haha, this retard ranks Tim Duncan as the 2nd best player ever after MJ..:facepalm

[SMoKe0uT]

OK. do we all realize that TD was unable to defend his title once?


thats right ill say it again.

ZEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOO defended titles

as in


0 title defenses.

sorry folks thats a pretty soft champion.

TD was and is too mentally weak to defend a title.


read it again children let it sink in

ZERO titles defended

Kobe has 3 defended titles. shaq has 2 and pau has 1.

also prime shaq takes a shit on any version of Tim Duncan. Tim is top 10 all time but please with this ish already. when you are compared to jordan you are the greatest player of your era period.

EDIT::kobe:

/thread

[RRR3]

OK. do we all realize that TD was unable to defend his title once?


thats right ill say it again.

ZEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOO defended titles

as in


0 title defenses.

sorry folks thats a pretty soft champion.

TD was and is too mentally weak to defend a title.


read it again children let it sink in

ZERO titles defended

EDIT::kobe:

/thread
Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles. :rolleyes:

[SMoKe0uT]

Also while Tim has the edge on playoff appearances kobe never lost to an 8 seed while being a one seed.


oh yeah. forgot to mention tim failed to defend his title once and thats with 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center and a top 5 coach all time!!!



LOLWUT?

[Legends66NBA7]

Some do, some don't.

I have Duncan over Kobe. But I could see Kobe's longevity surpass him, if he could be very productive for another title run, possibaly add another MVP and Finals MVP as well.

It's a big what if, but not totally out of the woods.

Duncan's longevity hasn't been that great. He's having a very up and down playoff run and depending what he does in the Finals (pending he gets there), might be my deciding factor about where they rank.

I don't think it will make that much of difference, since Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs now, but he is still their anchor.

[RRR3]

Also while Tim has the edge on playoff appearances kobe never lost to an 8 seed while being a one seed. He got swept defending his title, though:roll:


oh yeah. forgot to mention tim failed to defend his title once and thats with 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center and a top 5 coach all time!!! Kobe failed to defend a title with Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Phil Jackson as coach. Next.



LOLWUT?
:sleeping

[SMoKe0uT]

Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles. :rolleyes:


Did wilt have 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center (well PF in his case) and maybe the best coach of all time? naa didnt think so... and on top of that he faced the greatest dynasty of all time?

brilliant argument bro atleast wilt actually made it to two finals in a row. same cant even be said for duncan who failed at even defending the western conference title.

next.

[Legends66NBA7]

Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles.

Not that I'm trying to start a Wilt vs Kobe argument...

It still boggles my mind as to how Wilt never led his teams to back to back titles.

He was the anchor to two of the greatest teams of all-time, but it's crazy to me.

Anyways, carry on.

[RRR3]

did wilt have 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center (well PF in his case) and maybe the best coach of all time? naa didnt think so. and on top of that faced the greates dynasty of all time.

brilliant argument bro

next.
You know Wilt played with a lot of Hall of Famers, correct? Including Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, and Billy Cunningham?

[RRR3]

Not that I'm trying to start a Wilt vs Kobe argument...

It still boggles my mind as to how Wilt never led his teams to back to back titles.

He was the anchor to two of the greatest teams of all-time, but it's crazy to me.

Anyways, carry on.
Because they were going up against the dynasty Celtics.

[SMoKe0uT]

:sleeping

who cares? he sucessfully defended his title before stop pulling random ish outta nowhere.

LOL @ grasping at straws. Like there is a perfect basketball player or something.


every great has failed at some point. even god himself Jordan.

[RRR3]

who cares? he sucessfully defended his title before stop pulling random ish outta nowhere.

LOL @ grasping at straws. Like there is a perfect basketball player or something.


every great has failed at some point. even god himself Jordan.
Exactly. So stop faulting Duncan for silly reasons to try and prop up your boy.

[SMoKe0uT]

Because they were going up against the dynasty Celtics.


My point exactly! i would give duncan a pass also if that was the case.

also i never said kobe > Wilt.


LOL lakers teams of the 60-70's were overated including thier players.

[Legends66NBA7]

Because they were going up against the dynasty Celtics.

While that team was a juggernaut... the other times Wilt's teams did win a championship:

Wilt's 1968 Sixers team were up 3-1 vs the Celtics and lost that series (one of my deciding factors of having Russell over Wilt)

Wilt's 1973 Lakers team actually faced the Knicks and lost in 5 games.

I don't know... I feel they could have pulled it off.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe failed to defend a title with Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Phil Jackson as coach.

Actually they weren't defending the title. They lost in 2003 after 3 peating.

Plus, Malone was done after that knee injury, Payton never figured out the triangle... both really were on their last wheels... Kobe and Shaq were at each others necks... just too much poison for that team to beat the Pistons that year (when I look back at them, they were actually the more well-rounded and better team).

[SMoKe0uT]

Exactly. So stop faulting Duncan for silly reasons to try and prop up your boy.



Im not propping up my boy man. I just gave you my opinion about the situation.

I respect your's it nothing more than a debate thats all sorry if i came off rude.

Lakers fan 1st

basketball fan 2nd

Kobe fan 3rd

Jordan fan 4th

you gotta admit both wilt and duncan choked when they had the targets on thier back.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

How many seasons has TD played? This is his 15th season? over these last two seasons, he is averaging, what, 14 pts and 9 boards? something like that?
Ain't exactly KAJ material, but fairly impressive for 14th and 15th season.

[TheWINdyCity]

If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, he never would have ran Shaq/Jackson out of LA in '04. If Kobe had Duncan's demeanor, LA probably wins against Detroit in the '04 Finals(Kobe's ballhog mentality would be replaced by Duncan's team first mentality).


this

[CavaliersFTW]

Not that I'm trying to start a Wilt vs Kobe argument...

It still boggles my mind as to how Wilt never led his teams to back to back titles.

He was the anchor to two of the greatest teams of all-time, but it's crazy to me.

Anyways, carry on.
His behavior. He was a complex person with a massive ego, a nightmare to keep happy by coaches/players surrounding him. That + free throws are his two true achilles' heels. He blew his chances for back to backs because of the same thing that is now a common dominant bigman problem these days. Simply getting along with everyone. Just think back to Dwight/Bynum/Shaq's best moments and then put their attitudes behind a person who thinks he is even more high and mighty

[pauk]

Not that I'm trying to start a Wilt vs Kobe argument...

It still boggles my mind as to how Wilt never led his teams to back to back titles.

He was the anchor to two of the greatest teams of all-time, but it's crazy to me.

Anyways, carry on.

Its because a championship is a team accomplishment... its as simple as that, if you dont have the supporting cast required to win a championship then you can
drop a 50 ppg - 30 rpg (Wilt) if you want, you can be the greatest/most consistant clutch shooter ever (Reggie), you can be the most complete all-round player ever (Oscar) and NEVER win a ring or maybe 1-2 if lucky....

Everybody know this, but some homers/stans who KNOW their favorite player was nowhere near as great of an actual basketball player use that ring argument to catapult their favorite player way above somebody who was actually a much more talented-skilled-dominant-productive player... trying to act like a championship is the act of one man and that "Stats, MVPs and so on are "empty"....

[DJ Leon Smith]

Its because a championship is a team accomplishment... its as simple as that, if you dont have the supporting cast required to win a championship then you can
drop a 50 ppg - 30 rpg (Wilt) if you want, you can be the greatest/most consistant clutch shooter ever (Reggie), you can be the most complete all-round player ever (Oscar) and NEVER win a ring or maybe 1-2 if lucky....

Everybody know this, but some homers/stans who KNOW their favorite player was nowhere near as great of an actual basketball player use that ring argument to catapult their favorite player way above somebody who was actually a much more talented-skilled-dominant-productive player... trying to act like a championship is the act of one man and that "Stats, MVPs and so on are "empty"....

Hey remember when Wilt was outscored by Jason Terry in the NBA Finals?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hey remember when Wilt was outscored by Jason Terry in the NBA Finals?
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/misc%20bb/grand/nNfVM.gif

[longtime lurker]

What do analysts think?


Before the 2010 NBA finals began, Interbasket asked 54 sportswriters, analysts, and basketball experts from around the country to name the top 5 NBA players of all-time. Not a completely surprising list, but there are some interesting results.

1. Michael Jordan 50 of 54 (92.6%)
2. Magic Johnson 44 of 54 (81.5%)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 37 of 54 (68.5%)
4. Larry Bird 35 of 54 (64.8%)
5. Bill Russell 30 of 54 (55.6%)
6. Oscar Robertson 24 of 54 (44.4%)
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 of 54 (40.7%)
8. Kobe Bryant 10 of 54 (40.7%)

Kobe got 10 votes, Duncan 2.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/6831/2010/06/jordan-magic-bird-in-top-5-nba-players-all-time-kobe-bryant-8/


What do fans think?


SportsNation Rankings

rank. player. points

1.Michael Jordan 226,755
2.Magic Johnson 173,043
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 150,695
4.Wilt Chamberlain 138,446
5.Larry Bird 136,612
6.Bill Russell 122,451
7.Kobe Bryant 118,471
8.Shaquille O'Neal 89,786
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 68,392
10.Tim Duncan 48,706

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260

TNT Player of the Decade (2000-2009) Fan Vote

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

Kobe was better. Simple.

Interesting that in the eyes of fans Oscar Robertson seems to get shafted.