Is Kobe The Best Second Tier Great Ever?

[Big#50]

Kobe is just another TMAC, Carter, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, McHale, Lebron, Wade, Niqu, etc...
Let's face it, he only ranks higher because of rings. Rings he would never have won in another team. Playing in Los Angeles made this chucker bigger than life. He was a great second option to Shaq. But any of those wings I named would have done the same. He won three rings that don't really count like MJ's, Duncan's, Shaq's. He then missed the playoffs. Two straight first round exits when he tried to lead a team. Got his wish because he plays in Los Angeles and gets a great big. Wins two titles with the deepest team in the league. In 09 The Celtics would have repeated if KG doesn't go down. In 2010 he showed us all he just isn't as clutch as people make him seem. Now without his bigs producing he is back to being just a chucker. Had he played in another city, everyone would just group him with the rest of the good wing scorers.
I have a hard time believing this guy is a better player than TMAC, Lebron or Barkley. Let's not act like Lebron wouldn't have won rings playing with prime Shaq.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Nice try *******t

[PickernRoller]

http://i52.tinypic.com/24ya73s.jpg

[Big#50]

http://i52.tinypic.com/24ya73s.jpg
He was just a sidekick for three of those trophies. Why pose with them like he is Shaq/Tim/MJ?

[Big#50]

I'm guessing you guys think he is the best second tier great ever?

[PickernRoller]

He was just a sidekick for three of those trophies. Why pose with them like he is Shaq/Tim/MJ?

You're here due to Timmy after all....lets not act like you haven't been clowing on that Shaq > Ducan thread with some Kobe fans. I knew this thread was due as a carryover.

Nice try ph@gg0t...

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Better luck next time c0ck breath.

[Big#50]

Name calling.
I'm just pointing out the obvious. TMAC did everything Kobe does. Just had the misfortune of not playing with prime Shaq. Lebron does more on the court. Kobe is done winning anything. His bigs have turned their back on him. What did Kobe do when he had to lead a team alone? Missed the post season once, and got booted in the first round twice.

[PickernRoller]

Name calling.
I'm just pointing out the obvious. TMAC did everything Kobe does. Just had the misfortune of not playing with prime Shaq. Lebron does more on the court. Kobe is done winning anything. His bigs have turned their back on him. What did Kobe do when he had to lead a team alone? Missed the post season once, and got booted in the first round twice.

Malone and Barkley did everything Duncan does.

Next...

Seriously thou...you're too sad. Tomorrow is another day...walk outside and watch the sun....

[Velocirap31]

I agree with you OP. If Kobe was on the Bucks his entire career, he'd more than likely have zero rings, no accolades, and far fewer fans.

[Vienceslav]

I don

[PickernRoller]

I agree with you OP. If Kobe was on the Bucks his entire career, he'd more than likely have zero rings, no accolades, and far fewer fans.

Lebron dick rider spotted.

[Big#50]

You're here due to Timmy after all....lets not act like you haven't been clowing on that Shaq > Ducan thread with some Kobe fans. I knew this thread was due as a carryover.

Nice try ph@gg0t...
Let's not worry about Tim and Shaq. I want to talk second tier greats. We have never done a top ten second tier great list.
Here is mine.
DROB
Lebron
KoBe
Barkley
Dirk
Malone
Wade
McHale
Iverson
TMAC
I want to see everyone's second tier top ten.

[PickernRoller]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]I don

[Mr. Jabbar]

give it up op, its not working :facepalm

[Big#50]

give it up op, its not working :facepalm
I respect your basketball knowledge. Can you post your second tier top 10? Wouldn't surprise me If you have Kobe first. But I want to see the rest of your list.

[LakersReign]

This is almost as pathetic as when 32dayz/bwink23 tried to convince us that Pau Gasol was the 2010 FMVP:facepalm

[Big#50]

Malone and Barkley did everything Duncan does.

Next...

Seriously thou...you're too sad. Tomorrow is another day...walk outside and watch the sun....
So you got Malone and Barkley ahead of Kobe in your second tier top 10. What does the rest of your list look like? Looking forward to comparing.
I dont know about Malone being ahead of Kobe. He has no case IMO.

[Big#50]

This is almost as pathetic as when 32dayz/bwink23 tried to convince us that Pau Gasol was the 2010 FMVP:facepalm
LakersReign, one of the best posters on this site. Post your second tier top 10. What do you think of mine? I know you might think I'm being biased by putting DROB at one. But i really do think he was the best. Dude was a beast defensively. Back before the injury and Hakeem sent his ass to the second tier.

[The-Legend-24]

LOL

[LakersReign]

LakersReign, one of the best posters on this site. Post your second tier top 10. What do you think of mine? I know you might think I'm being biased by putting DROB at one. But i really do think he was the best. Dude was a beast defensively. Back before the injury and Hakeem sent his ass to the second tier.

Your pathetic attempt at sarcasm, as misdirction to cover up the fact that you're an OBVIOUS Lebronyte, just makes you look even more pathetic. You sound exactly like 32dayz/bwink23 trying to fool people into playing your equally pathetic game. Yeah Kobe's a 2nd tier Top 10 Player, but Lebron isn't since he has all those IMAGINARY titles that count more than REAL titles.....right? What suspense:rolleyes:

(yawn):sleeping

[PickernRoller]

Your pathetic attempt at sarcasm, as misdirction to cover up the fact that you're an OBVIOUS Lebronyte, just makes you look even more pathetic. You sound exactly like 32dayz/bwink23 trying to fool people into playing your equally pathetic game. Yeah Kobe's a 2nd tier Top 10 Player, but Lebron isn't since he has all those IMAGINARY titles that count more than REAL titles.....right? What suspense:rolleyes:

(yawn):sleeping

You got him confused...he's a Timmy lover. No shame in that, he just takes it to the extreme, insecure as others.

[maybeshewill13]

I agree with you OP. If Kobe was on the Bucks his entire career, he'd more than likely have zero rings, no accolades, and far fewer fans.
Totally agree. He's a good player, but you just can't compare him with any of the true greats

[LakersReign]

You got him confused...he's a Timmy lover. No shame in that, he just takes it to the extreme, insecure as others.

I only said that cuz I read his nonsense about how Kobe can't win without Pat Riley, Magic. Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Dr. Buss, Phil Jackson, The Lakers Girls, his mask, his German knee surgery, the lady at the corner selling corndogs, his limo driver, etc. Lebronytes are usually the ones who spout that hilariously stupid hot garbage.:rolleyes:

[PickernRoller]

I only said that cuz I read his nonsense about how Kobe can't win without Pat Riley, Magic. Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Dr. Buss, Phil Jackson, The Lakers Girls, his mask, etc. Lebronytes are the ones who spout that hilariously stupid hot garbage.:rolleyes:

There are lots of clowns that spout that garbage, they'll spun it around in a million ways, still the same sh1t......take sides when they need to, etc...all about the agenda. The more the merrier, success always breeds envy. Not the first time, not the last.

Calling it a night...

[LakersReign]

There are lots of clowns that spout that garbage......take sides when they need to, etc...all about the agenda. The more the merrier, success always breeds envy.

Yeah I know and it's quite pathetic if you ask me. Indicative of the fact they truly know nothing about the game. The thing they fail to realize about being a hypocrite is that people can always see your double standard.

[Big#50]

There are lots of clowns that spout that garbage......take sides when they need to, etc...all about the agenda. The more the merrier, success always breeds envy. Not the first time, not the last.
Still waiting on your list.

[LakersReign]

AND....I'm still waiting for you(32dayz/bwink23/big#50) to grow a brain, so you can get some new material and stop saying the same tired BORING crap(that nobody with an ounce of common sense believes anyway) over and over and over and over and over. But I guess we can't always get what we want:hammerhead:

Pure ******* one trick pony dancing a** clown(32dayz/bwink23/big#50):applause:

[maybeshewill13]

Lol at how offended you guys get over this ****. Gold :lol

[dajadeed]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe is only ranked high because he wins.

Really, lets focus on his PER and pretend winning is just accidental.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

History remembers winners. No one in 30 years is going to remember PER, TMac, or anything you are trying to sell. They'll look back and say that 24 won at least 5 rings. He's in the group that has cemented a legacy that will live forever.

I suggest you ****ers just learn to deal with it. :confusedshrug:

[Big#50]

You've been insinuating(cuz you can't prove sh*t) for OVER 6 MONTHS NOW that I'm supposedly EVERYBODY ON ISH(that would include you as well clown(32dayz/bwink23/big#50). And the only person on here dumb enough to believe you in all that time is lebron23. Who's so ret***ded, he believes ANYTHING cuz he's way too stupid to know any better. Please continue to further embarrass yourself:facepalm

Pure ******* one trick pony dancing a** clown(32dayz/bwink23/big#50):applause:
Did you just admit to being like 5 accounts? Wtf just happened? LOL
And you think I'm 32Dayz/Bwink23 ??????????? LoL

[LakersReign]

Notice how quickly he COMPLETELY abandoned his supposed point in the thread?:roll:

That's cuz he never had one to begin with. Just another Kobe bashing thread in disguise....just like 32dayz. OOPS!!!!:facepalm

Try harder:sleeping

[maybeshewill13]

Calm down Lakersreign.. We're just trying to talk basketball on a computer forum? Sheesh :rolleyes:

[Big#50]

Notice how quickly he COMPLETELY abandoned his supposed point in the thread?:roll:

That's cuz he never had one to begin with. Just another Kobe bashing thread in disguise....just like 32dayz. OOPS!!!!:facepalm

Try harder:sleeping
You never posted your top ten. How can we talk ball if you're not posting your top ten second tier greatest list???

[LakersReign]

Keep telling me how mad I'm suppose to be cuz some no life outside of the internet dancing a** clown can't think of something new to say for over 6 months now:rolleyes:


Good luck with all that:sleeping

[LakersReign]

You never posted your top ten. How can we talk ball if you're not posting your top ten second tier greatest list???

Yeah....so that must be exactly why you responded to PicnRoller like you were talking to me INSTEAD of just talking to me...right?:rolleyes:


Try harder:sleeping

[maybeshewill13]

Yeah....so that must be exactly why you responded to PicnRoller like you were talking to me INSTEAD of just talking to me...right?:rolleyes:


Try harder:sleeping

Come on man, we aren't trying to be mean to you. We're just trying to talk ball. No need to get upset an start calling us names :(

[LakersReign]

You know what...you're right...I'm mad. I'm so mad, i just don't know what I'm going to do with myself. I'm so mad. Let me show you exactly how mad I am:sleeping

Happy now?

[maybeshewill13]

You know what...you're right...I'm mad. Let me show you exactly how mad I am:sleeping

Happy now?

What are you talking about being mad for? I don't care if you're mad. We're just trying to talk ball :confusedshrug:

[LakersReign]

Calm down Lakersreign.. We're just trying to talk basketball on a computer forum? Sheesh :rolleyes:

He was telling me to calm down cuz I was supposedly so mad cuz he said so. Now I'm mad cuz he told me to be mad, he's mad that I'm mad.:roll:

Oh, and by the way, I'd really like to know which part of talking about basketball involves telling people how mad they're supposed to be about things that have absolutely nothing to do with them. I just wanna know:rolleyes:

Pure hilarious stupidity(maybeshewill):lol

[Big#50]

Yeah....so that must be exactly why you responded to PicnRoller like you were talking to me INSTEAD of just talking to me...right?:rolleyes:


Try harder:sleeping
I actually quoted the wrong Stan. LoL

[maybeshewill13]

He was telling me to calm down cuz I was supposedly so mad cuz he said so. Now I'm mad cuz he told me to be mad, he's mad that I'm mad.:roll:

Oh, and by the way, I'd really like to know which part of talking about basketball involves telling people how mad they're supposed to be about things that have absolutely nothing to do with them. I just wanna know:rolleyes:

Pure hilarious stupidity(maybeshewill):lol

I warranted 2 paragraphs? Hella mad lol. Just trying to talk ball man..

[nbaballllller]

lmao at comapring kobe to carter, ai, tmac

kobe has heart. and a will to win greater than all those players put together.

However i also agree that where a player plays does have a large impact on how many rings he ends up winning. and therefore rings alone are not the only judge of greatness.

put wade on that lakers team and he has 5 rings. put garnett on those spurs teams and he has a couple more rings etc

[LakersReign]

...cuz according to his dumba**(maybeshewill) talking about basketball SOMEHOW involves telling people how mad they supposed to be for no real reason:roll:

Notice how you've never seen anything like that in any NBA game on the planet?:facepalm


Try harder:sleeping

[maybeshewill13]

...cuz according to his dumba**(maybeshewill) talking about basketball SOMEHOW involves telling people how mad they supposed to be for no real reason:roll:

Notice how you've never seen anything like that in any NBA game on the planet?:facepalm


Try harder:sleeping
:sleeping

[LakersReign]

AND.....the little ret**ded child(maybeshewill) repeats like a pathetic parrot cuz he's talking about basketball:facepalm

[maybeshewill13]

AND.....the little ret**ded child(maybeshewill) repeats like a pathetic parrot cuz he's talking about basketball:facepalm

Try harder..
:sleeping (yawn)

[LakersReign]

Why you(maybeshewill) mad though?:lol



(AND.....cue the clown(maybeshewill) with the repeat like a pathetic parrot cuz he's supposedly taking about basketball)

[maybeshewill13]

You(maybeshewill) mad(cuz you(maybshewill) just totally embarrassed yourself)?:lol



(AND.....cue the clown(maybeshewill) with the repeat like a pathetic parrot cuz he's supposedly taking about basketball)

Come on mate, no need for name calling.. You're hurting my feelings :(

[LakersReign]

Calm down Lakersreign.. We're just trying to talk basketball on a computer forum? Sheesh :rolleyes:

POINTLESS pathetic hypocrite(maybeshewill):facepalm

[maybeshewill13]

POINTLESS pathetic hypocrite(maybeshewill):facepalm
I miss your old avatar, it was more entertaining. The one with the guy holding another guy's face to his crotch. Put it back please? :cheers:

[LakersReign]

We're just trying to talk ball. No need to get upset an start calling us names :(

One of the biggest hypocrites on ISH(maybeshewill):rolleyes:

[maybeshewill13]

Ball talk was over long ago brother :cheers:

[LakersReign]

Ball talk was over long ago brother :cheers:

So....NOW you're(maybeshewill) finally ADMITTING to be a POINTLESS hypocritical troll(mayshewill)?:applause:

OOPS!!!!:facepalm

[maybeshewill13]

But but but I'm just trying to have a conversation with you (Lakersreign) :( why won't you answer my questions and keep quoting me? :( let go of the hate and let's be best friends!!

[LakersReign]

Calm down Lakersreign.. We're just trying to talk basketball on a computer forum? Sheesh :rolleyes:


Ball talk was over long ago brother :cheers:

Keep talking dumba**(maybeshewill) just keep talking:facepalm

[maybeshewill13]

OK, how about this.. I fly into LA Sunday. How about we meet up and you buy me a hot chocolate and we can talk this all over? I don't know why you hate me so much :(

[blablabla]

classic insidepoops

[maybeshewill13]

classic insidepoops
Good times :lol

[LakersReign]

classic insidepoops

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265784

Looks like InspiredLebowski's had enough. Funny thing about that is he's a mod, so what does that tell you?:facepalm

[ImmortalNemesis]

Keep talking dumba**(maybeshewill) just keep talking:facepalm

lol

Is putting the poster's name in parentheses necessary? You are QUOTING the guy for Christ's sake. Are you a retard? Serious question. I just can't fathom someone thinking "Maybe quoting him isn't enough. He might think I'm talking to someone else. I should probably put his username in parentheses just to make sure. Yeah, that might work."

:facepalm

[LakersReign]

More POINTLESS hot garbage. You tried(and failed miserably) with that one already, more than once. Either think of something new to say or simply stfu.:sleeping

[ImmortalNemesis]

I doubt you sleep that much. I know you.

I honestly don't remember asking though. What is the thought process (logic) behind it? Explain it to me and I'll stop asking.

[LakersReign]

Boring:rolleyes:

[ImmortalNemesis]

Let me fix that for you.


Boring:rolleyes: (ImmortalNemesis) (ImmortalNemesis is boring. You know I'm talking about you ImmortalNemesis right? You are boring ImmortalNemesis

Fixed.

[LakersReign]

I tell the clown to think of something new, he repeats like a pathetic parrot instead:roll:

[ImmortalNemesis]

CAN'T think of anything new huh? Big surprise:rolleyes:

Then simply stfu.

How old are you kid? (No pedo)

[LakersReign]

Old enough to know that you're^ OBVIOUSLY a mentally deficient 12 year old^ who CAN'T think of anything new to say. So just to say something....ANYTHING, you repeat, on command, like a pathetic parrot:applause:


*Repeat*

[ImmortalNemesis]

Old enough to know that you're^ OBVIOUSLY a 12 year old^ who CAN'T think of anything new to say. Which is exactly why you repeat, on command, like a pathetic parrot:applause:


*Repeat*

OK kid. I was just curious because I rarely see you post something of substance. You are always either arguing with someone else (usually a LeBron fan or 'Lebronytes' are you like to call them) or blatantly trolling. Seems like you're always the instigator, too. And stop editing your posts every five minutes. I didn't mean to get into your head like that. I was honestly curious to know why you do that shit. Like what's the point? I don't really get it. You just did it again just replace the username in parentheses with '^'. You seriously think people don't know who you're referring to? :biggums: Stop acting like a child, because you aren't one. You're a big boy now. You're old enough to think. So think before you post.

__________________________________________________ ___

Jeff, your forum sucks. Even the mods of this site have had enough. Give mods banning powers. Seriously, you have a bunch of kids trolling the shit out of the forum.

[NumberSix]

I wouldn't consider Kobe to be a second tier player. IMO, he's definitely a 1st tier player, but maybe my idea of 1st or 2nd tier is different from others.

[pauk]

Kobe is just another TMAC, Carter, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, McHale, Wade, Niqu, etc...
Let's face it, he only ranks higher because of rings. Rings he would never have won in another team. Playing in Los Angeles made this chucker bigger than life. He was a great second option to Shaq. But any of those wings I named would have done the same. He won three rings that don't really count like MJ's, Duncan's, Shaq's. He then missed the playoffs. Two straight first round exits when he tried to lead a team. Got his wish because he plays in Los Angeles and gets a great big. Wins two titles with the deepest team in the league. In 09 The Celtics would have repeated if KG doesn't go down. In 2010 he showed us all he just isn't as clutch as people make him seem. Now without his bigs producing he is back to being just a chucker. Had he played in another city, everyone would just group him with the rest of the good wing scorers.
I have a hard time believing this guy is a better player than TMAC or Barkley..

Fixed... (removed tier 1 players from the discussion, Lebron & Shaq)

[amfirst]

http://i52.tinypic.com/24ya73s.jpg

Yes he is definately mad.

[ralph_i_el]

http://i46.tinypic.com/f4qtma.jpg

[Remix]

OP is definitely gay

[SwayDizzle]

How can you possibly think Godbe is a 2nd Tier player? Have you watched him play at alllllll? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[PTB Fan]

Even though i don't like Kobe, he's definitely top tier.

[tpols]

lol.. MJ wouldve been a sidekick to Shaq too in the early 2000s if he started his career with the Lakers. Every player in the HISTORY of basketball would have been a sidekick to PRIME Shaq coming onto a team as a rookie.

[LakersReign]

OK kid. I didn't mean to get into your head like that


....says this mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortal nemesis) who got into my head so much, he still CAN'T think of anything new to say. So he repeats what I say, on command, like a pathetic parrot. Then he runs away, cryin' like a little girl, to go look at my avi, comes back and repeats on command like a pathetic parrot(immortal nemesis)....AGAIN. Like clockwork:roll: *Repeat*

Oh, and by the way, I'd really stop all that cryin' about a ban for OBVIOUSLY stupid people like you(immortalnemesis). Who truly know nothing about basketball and are only on here cuz you have nothing better to do. Cuz if ISH ever had one, you'd(immortalnemesis) CLEARLY be the first one out. So, I'd shut the hell up about all that if I were you.:hammerhead:

[Deuce Bigalow]

This guy really thinks that Shaq, and even Tim lol Duncan is at a different level than Kobe :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_WCF.html

/thread

[Big#50]

This guy really thinks that Shaq, and even Tim lol Duncan is at a different level than Kobe :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_WCF.html

/thread
Those are good numbers. TMAC and Wade type numbers. Do you have Kobe ranked ahead in your top 10 second tier list?

[gengiskhan]

Kobe is just another TMAC, Carter, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, McHale, Lebron, Wade, Niqu, etc...
Let's face it, he only ranks higher because of rings. Rings he would never have won in another team. Playing in Los Angeles made this chucker bigger than life. He was a great second option to Shaq. But any of those wings I named would have done the same. He won three rings that don't really count like MJ's, Duncan's, Shaq's. He then missed the playoffs. Two straight first round exits when he tried to lead a team. Got his wish because he plays in Los Angeles and gets a great big. Wins two titles with the deepest team in the league. In 09 The Celtics would have repeated if KG doesn't go down. In 2010 he showed us all he just isn't as clutch as people make him seem. Now without his bigs producing he is back to being just a chucker. Had he played in another city, everyone would just group him with the rest of the good wing scorers.
I have a hard time believing this guy is a better player than TMAC, Lebron or Barkley. Let's not act like Lebron wouldn't have won rings playing with prime Shaq.

NO!


Kobe is one of the best 3rd-Tier Greats

1st Tier: MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt

2nd Tier: Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Big O

3rd Tier: Duncan, Barkley, Kobe, LBJ

[Big#50]

lol.. MJ wouldve been a sidekick to Shaq too in the early 2000s if he started his career with the Lakers. Every player in the HISTORY of basketball would have been a sidekick to PRIME Shaq coming onto a team as a rookie.
MJ would have been the number one option on any team. The dude is the GOAT. But I agree with Kobe being the sidekick. Our opinions are so alike. That's awesome. Can I see your top 10 second tier list?
I posted mine earlier in this thread.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Those are good numbers. TMAC and Wade type numbers. Do you have Kobe ranked ahead in your top 10 second tier list?

TMAC

2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Wade

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Kobe

1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)

:oldlol:

You can completely ignore the postseason and Kobe's sustained dominance is on par with anybody.

[Big#50]

NO!


Kobe is one of the best 3rd-Tier Greats

1st Tier: MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt

2nd Tier: Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Big O

3rd Tier: Duncan, Barkley, Kobe, LBJ
You're being harsh. Lebron is definitely second tier. BTW top 8 player in history are top tier.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Those are good numbers. TMAC and Wade type numbers. Do you have Kobe ranked ahead in your top 10 second tier list?
Duncan in the '01 WCF: 23/12 on 48%
Duncan in the '04 WCSF: 21/12 on 47%

Pau Gasol type numbers?

[Big#50]

TMAC

2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Wade

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Kobe

1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
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2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)

:oldlol:

You can completely ignore the postseason and Kobe's sustained dominance is on par with anybody.
All those first teams for Kobe because he played in LA. Put Wade or TMAC in LA, they make first team without even playing defense as well. What's your point? Post your top ten second tier list.

[Big#50]

Duncan in the '01 WCF: 23/12 on 48%
Duncan in the '04 WCSF: 21/12 on 47%

Pau Gasol type numbers?
So, you're saying Paul Gasol should have been the 2010 finals MVP? It was close but I agree with you.

[Deuce Bigalow]

So, you're saying Paul Gasol should have been the 2010 finals MVP? It was close but I agree with you.
'10 Finals:
Kobe - 29/8/4 on 53 ts%
Pau - 19/12/4 on 56 ts%

Doesn't seem close to me

Duncan was almost as good as Pau in the '07 Finals (18/12/4 on 48 ts%)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All those first teams for Kobe because he played in LA. Put Wade or TMAC in LA, they make first team without even playing defense as well. What's your point? Post your top ten second tier list.

My point is pretty clear. Kobe will likely retire with most all nba awards and all defensive team awards by any player of all time. The awkward truth is that you can ignore his 5 rings, 7 finals appearances and his destiny as leading playoff scorer of all time and he still stacks up with anybody.

:confusedshrug:

[Big#50]

'10 Finals:
Kobe - 29/8/4 on 53 ts%
Pau - 19/12/4 on 56 ts%

Doesn't seem close to me

Duncan was almost as good as Pau in the '07 Finals (18/12/4 on 48 ts%)
What about 6/24? Had Kobe stepped up in that game, he probably leap frogs Lebron and DROB in my second tier top ten.

[Big#50]

My point is pretty clear. Kobe will likely retire with most all nba awards and all defensive team awards by any player of all time. The awkward truth is that you can ignore his 5 rings, 7 finals appearances and his destiny as leading playoff scorer of all time and he still stacks up with anybody.

:confusedshrug:
You're right. I might have to review my second tier top 10 list. Kobe does have that longevity. Playing In LA will have him making all NBA teams till he's 45.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What about 6/24? Had Kobe stepped up in that game, he probably leap frogs Lebron and DROB in my second tier top ten.
10 4th quarter points? 15 rebounds by a SG out-rebounding the C's Big-3 combined?
Still had the most points in that game too most in the 4th quarter also, even though he shot bad

What about the road games?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html

If his teammates stepped up in game 5, there wouldn't need to be a game 7.

[Big#50]

10 4th quarter points? 15 rebounds by a SG out-rebounding the C's Big-3 combined?
Still had the most points in that game too most in the 4th quarter also, even though he shot bad

What about the road games?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html

If his teammates stepped up in game 5, there wouldn't need to be a game 7.
No Perkins in the middle. Kobe giving Rondo about ten feet on defense. I can see why he grabbed a lot of rebounds. 8 or so free throws gifted to him by the refs in the fourth. I think he should have grabbed more. The Celtics were helpless out there without angry man in the middle.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No Perkins in the middle. Kobe giving Rondo about ten feet on defense. I can see why he grabbed a lot of rebounds. 8 or so free throws gifted to him by the refs in the fourth. I think he should have grabbed more. The Celtics were helpless out there without angry man in the middle.
Still better than half of Duncan's Finals performances

Kobe - 2010 Finals
28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg on 53 TS%

Duncan - 2007 Finals
18.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.8 apg on 48 TS%

Duncan - 2005 Finals
20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg on 47 TS%
game 7: 10-27 and only 11 rebounds

[97 bulls]

Ill talk ball with you 50. First, lets be honest, all awards are won based on the results of ones team. Why should kobe be looked at differently. Second, i noticed you put kevin mchale in your all-time top 10 second tier players. Why? All he has to his credit is a sixth man award. His biggest claim to fame is his three championships. Not to mention, in his one year as the "man" in 89, the celtics sucked. And wouldnt have sniffed the playoffs without a bunch of wins over expansion teams. Sounds kinda hypocritical

[Big#50]

Still better than half of Duncan's Finals performances

Kobe - 2010 Finals
28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg on 53 TS%

Duncan - 2007 Finals
18.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.8 apg on 48 TS%

Duncan - 2005 Finals
20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg on 47 TS%
That's difference between first tier and second tier. One knows how to take a back seat to a teammate with an advantage. The other shoots 36% and keeps chuking while his teammate is shotting 62%. His teammate is the reason he had three rings in the first place.

[tpols]

MJ would have been the number one option on any team. The dude is the GOAT. But I agree with Kobe being the sidekick. Our opinions are so alike. That's awesome. Can I see your top 10 second tier list?
I posted mine earlier in this thread.
Prime MJ? Sure.. Early 3rd year MJ? Nope.. he would not have been better than 2000 Shaq. Guess hes second tier.:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's difference between first tier and second tier. One knows how to take a back seat to a teammate with an advantage. The other shoots 36% and keeps chuking while his teammate is shotting 62%. His teammate is the reason he had three rings in the first place.
He averaged 27/6/5 on 51FG% (62 TS%) in '02 Finals
And I already posted those 2 series vs the Spurs before getting to the Finals
33-7-7 on 51% in '01 WCF
In 2002, he scored 11 points on 5-5 FG in the 4th quarter of game 3, then in Game 4 he scored 12 points and hit the gamewinner in game 4, he outscored the entire Spurs team in the 4th quarter by himself. What was Tim doing :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Amazing how some people let their hate cloud their basketball judgement so much. Im not a Kobe fan, but calling him 2nd tier is retarded. The guy is easily a top 10 player and the 2nd best SG ever.

[Big#50]

Prime MJ? Sure.. Early 3rd year MJ? Nope.. he would not have been better than 2000 Shaq. Guess hes second tier.:oldlol:
3rd year MJ averaged 37/5/5/3/1.5

[Big#50]

He averaged 27/6/5 on 51FG% (62 TS%) in '02 Finals
And I already posted those 2 series vs the Spurs before getting to the Finals
33-7-7 on 51% in '01 WCF
In 2002, he scored 11 points on 5-5 FG in the 4th quarter of game 3, then in Game 4 he scored 12 points and hit the gamewinner in game 4, he outscored the entire Spurs team in the 4th quarter by himself. What was Tim doing :oldlol:
Probably tired from watching Kobe torch a midget Antonio Daniels.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Probably tired from watching Kobe torch a midget Antonio Daniels.
Bruce Bowen was guarding Kobe in '02 dumbass

[MaxFly]

I get the sense that Bryant, had he not played on the Lakers, would have found his way to a bigger market anyway. He likely would have won fewer rings, but it's a hard thing to call. If we put him on any of those 2000s Bucks teams, who knows who he would be paired up with and what kinds of numbers he would have put up. Given how weak the east was for the duration of the 2000s, he might have made it to the finals a few times and won a few rings depending on the team built around him.

This all seems like a not so elaborate attempt to discredit his success with the Lakers, but the arguments just don't hold water given that we're dealing with suppositions and assumptions.

[gengiskhan]

You're being harsh. Lebron is definitely second tier. BTW top 8 player in history are top tier.

NO

#1 to #5 GOATs are Top Tier

#6 to #10 GOATs are 2nd Tier

#11 to #15 GOATs are 3rd Tier

its a simple math.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I get the sense that Bryant, had he not played on the Lakers, would have found his way to a bigger market anyway. He likely would have won fewer rings, but it's a hard thing to call. If we put him on any of those 2000s Bucks teams, who knows who he would be paired up with and what kinds of numbers he would have put up. Given how weak the east was for the duration of the 2000s, he might have made it to the finals a few times and won a few rings depending on the team built around him.

This all seems like a not so elaborate attempt to discredit his success with the Lakers, but the arguments just don't hold water given that we're dealing with suppositions and assumptions.


Agreed. Kobe is a beast, but he would never have won any titles playing for the Nets, Hornets, etc. He wanted a trade from the Lakers of all teams. I can't imagine him giving a small-market team that much slack.

[ImmortalNemesis]

....says this mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortal nemesis) who got into my head so much, he still CAN'T think of anything new to say. So he repeats what I say, on command, like a pathetic parrot. Then he runs away, cryin' like a little girl, to go look at my avi, comes back and repeats on command like a pathetic parrot(immortal nemesis)....AGAIN. Like clockwork:roll: *Repeat*

Oh, and by the way, I'd really stop all that cryin' about a ban for OBVIOUSLY stupid people like you(immortalnemesis). Who truly know nothing about basketball and are only on here cuz you have nothing better to do. Cuz if ISH ever had one, you'd(immortalnemesis) CLEARLY be the first one out. So, I'd shut the hell up about all that if I were you.:hammerhead:

:biggums:

Kid, I honestly have no idea what you're babbling about. And did you just edit your post 45 minutes later? What is wrong with you? Like I said, didn't mean to get into your head. Shit's not that serious. Why do you put the username in parentheses though? Honest question.

[Big#50]

Bruce Bowen was guarding Kobe in '02 dumbass
Sorry. I have never watched that series. LOL

[Big#50]

:biggums:

Kid, I honestly have no idea what you're babbling about. And did you just edit your post 45 minutes later? What is wrong with you? Like I said, didn't mean to get into your head. Shit's not that serious. Why do you put the username in parentheses though? Honest question.
Hard to keep up with ten Kobe worshipping alt accounts.

[LakersReign]

:biggums:

Kid, I honestly have no idea what you're babbling about. And did you just edit your post 45 minutes later? What is wrong with you? Like I said, didn't mean to get into your head. Shit's not that serious. Why do you put the username in parentheses though? Honest question.

.....says this OBVIOUS mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortalnemesis) who so supposedly into my head, he still feels this URGENT NEED to respond to my supposed babbling anyway.:lol

He(immortalnemesis) had that one going differently in his mind:roll:

[tpols]

3rd year MJ averaged 37/5/5/3/1.5
And he still wasnt better than Peak Shaq.. thats the point homie.:coleman:

[WockaVodka]

Maybe it's just me but does anyone else think it's possible to still be a top 10 player of all-time and still be a second tier great?

Kobe really has no argument as the greatest ever and I think the players you can argue for as the greatest ever are first tier players.

[ImmortalNemesis]

.....says this OBVIOUS mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortalnemesis) who so supposedly into my head, he still feels this URGENT NEED to respond to my supposed babbling anyway.:lol

He(immortalnemesis) had that one going differently in his mind:roll:

LOL

Look at you editing your post 10 minutes later. Cute. Take it easy kid.

[LakersReign]

You(immortalnemsis) mad(that you're OBVIOUSLY a mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortalnemesis) who's ONLY gimmick is to repeat on command like a pathetic parrot)?:lol

[Heavincent]

"Jordan wasn't that good. He got carried by Pippen and the GOAT coach to all of his championships."

"Duncan isn't great either. He's a system player. Pop is the real driving force of those teams."

"Shaq was carried by elite shooting guards."

See, I can do this too. I'm using the same retarded logic you're using for Kobe.

[krazymofo]

:roll: :roll: So Lakers fans getting butt hurt over another troll thread?

[Big#50]

"Jordan wasn't that good. He got carried by Pippen and the GOAT coach to all of his championships."

"Duncan isn't great either. He's a system player. Pop is the real driving force of those teams."

"Shaq was carried by elite shooting guards."

See, I can do this too. I'm using the same retarded logic you're using for Kobe.
Jordan was God in a Bulls uniform before Poppin and Phil.
Duncan was one of the greatest centers In NCAA history. Would have been drafted top three after his sophomore season.
Shaq won a ring before Kobe became a top 3 second tier player.
Anything else?

[Smoke117]

True story.

[Heavincent]

Jordan was God in a Bulls uniform before Poppin and Phil.
Duncan was one of the greatest centers In NCAA history. Would have been drafted top three after his sophomore season.
Shaq won a ring before Kobe became a top 3 second tier player.
Anything else?

Yeah...my point went way over your head.

[Big#50]

Yeah...my point went way over your head.
Not really. You sure you had a point? You sure it wasn't nothing?

[Extempo]

OP is a bitch!

[Big#50]

OP is a bitch!
Come to me my KobeTard alt accounts.

[BlackJoker23]

duncan most overrated player of all time. lol at the dude getting shit on ibaka

97 kobe>any duncan. kobe would rip duncans face off and wipe his ass with it just like i do everyday with big#50

[Big#50]

duncan most overrated player of all time. lol at the dude getting shit on ibaka

97 kobe>any duncan. kobe would rip duncans face off and wipe his ass with it just like i do everyday with big#50
A wild troll appears.

[maybeshewill13]

.....says this OBVIOUS mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortalnemesis) who so supposedly into my head, he still feels this URGENT NEED to respond to my supposed babbling anyway.:lol

He(immortalnemesis) had that one going differently in his mind:roll:


You(immortalnemsis) mad(that you're OBVIOUSLY a mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortalnemesis) who's ONLY gimmick is to repeat on command like a pathetic parrot)?


says this mentally deficient 12 year old kid(immortal nemesis) who got into my head so much, he still CAN'T think of anything new to say. So he repeats what I say, on command, like a pathetic parrot. Then he runs away, cryin' like a little girl, to go look at my avi, comes back and repeats on command like a pathetic parrot(immortal nemesis)....AGAIN. Like clockwork:roll: *Repeat*


I tell the clown to think of something new, he repeats like a pathetic parrot instead:roll:


Old enough to know that you're^ OBVIOUSLY a mentally deficient 12 year old^ who CAN'T think of anything new to say. So just to say something....ANYTHING, you repeat, on command, like a pathetic parrot:applause:


*Repeat*


AND.....the little ret**ded child(maybeshewill) repeats like a pathetic parrot cuz he's talking about basketball:facepalm


(AND.....cue the clown(maybeshewill) with the repeat like a pathetic parrot cuz he's supposedly taking about basketball)

All in ONE thread :biggums:

Remind me who's the "pathetic parrot" and "mentally deficient 12 year old again? I don't think anyone caught it the first 10 times. Terrible troll is terrible :lol

[SwayDizzle]

hahhaaah

[AMISTILLILL]

LakersReign is truly a once in a lifetime troll.

[LakersReign]

All in ONE thread :biggums:

Remind me who's the "pathetic parrot" and "mentally deficient 12 year old again? I don't think anyone caught it the first 10 times. Terrible troll is terrible :lol


BORING!!!!:rolleyes:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265781&page=3

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265781&page=4

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265781&page=5

You(maybeshewill) tried(and failed miserably) with all that already. But it's really all you have and all you're really on here for, so it's no big surprise, that you're STILL going to try and fail with that crap....AGAIN. Simply cuz you're that desperate and CLEARLY have nothing else.:sleeping

[SwayDizzle]

You crack me up Reign, making it rain on em hoes again? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

A wild troll appears.


lol, all of yall are crazy.

THIS THREAD IS FILLED WITH IRRATIONALITY.

-Smak

[G-Funk]

Kobe is 20 times better than Duncan.

Kobe>>Barkley>>Malone>>KG>>Duncan.

Duncan was just fortunate to play for a great franchise & coach

[LA_Showtime]

LakersReign is truly a once in a lifetime troll.

No he's not. He's like every other troll. The only reason he gets more exposure is because he's a Lakers fan. Go figure. :lol

[LakersReign]

No he's not. He's like every other troll. The only reason he gets more exposure is because he's a Lakers fan. Go figure. :lol

Call me whatever y'all want to, makes no difference to me. So far, according to ISHiots with nothing better to do, I'm supposedly Euro/Asian/White/French/Mexican(since ALL Lakers fans MUST live in LA)/African American. Who supposedly lives in LA, then suddenly moved to France, then just as suddenly moved back to LA. Who's also supposed to get mad simply cuz I'm told to.:roll:

Apparently, the concept of actually talking about basketball on a basketball forum is a bit too complicated for them to grasp Which is exactly why they'd rather come on here, FANTASIZING over another guy:eek:

[onhcetum]

OP speaks the truth. For him to be comparable to Tim Duncan is laughable. If Tim Duncan was EVER the second best player on his own team, we are talking about 6-7 titles MINIMUM. Kobe cannot carry a team. Kobe has been glorified these past few years because of rings and of course longevity (gotta give it up to Kobe, after all these years and still averaging 25 pgg). Kobe is a great player, no doubt.

What has Kobe done with the most dominant player in the history of the game and one of the most dominant frontline in the game? How about two seasons of mediocrity and missing the playoffs all together? He has cried and bickered about being traded. When I think of GAME CHANGING players who put a team on his back and players whom you start a franchise with, I think of Iverson, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Lebron... players that were drafted by atrocious teams that won ~20 games before they were drafted and turned that franchise around... 76ers, Magic, Cavs, Spurs were 20 win teams before they came and these players took them to the Finals.

I mean, hypothetically speaking, Kobe is considered a "GOAT" (not necessary THE GOAT, but a GOAT)? Well what kind of GOAT arguably in his PRIME/PEAK in 2005-2007 misses the playoffs and has a mediocre team... Cavs minus Lebron and Magic minus Dwight and 76ers minus AI and Spurs minus Duncan in 2003 WERE PURE GARBAGE. Let's not act like Kobe is only player in history to lack help. It's just too glaring that a player supposedly considered one of the greatest of all time can have such a mediocre showing.

[Mr Know It All]

All the OP did was speak the truth. Laker fans attempted to discredit him but just came up with 4th grade insults and "u mad?" pics. The state of Kobe fans is very sad sometimes.:oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

lol, all of yall are crazy.

THIS THREAD IS FILLED WITH IRRATIONALITY.

-Smak

Yup.



All the OP did was speak the truth

There's no truth in an opinionated ranking list or "tiers".

[DirtySanchez]

Lmao

Kobe's resume speaks for itself. He already is the second best SG of all time. Stop the BS and be real. This thread is a joke.

[RazorBaLade]

jordan is a t20 player all time for sure

[DirtySanchez]

I also love the 3 rings don't count argument. Being the second part of one of the greatest duos ever ain't bad. Pippen became one of the 50 greatest players of all time doing just that for his career.

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe is just another TMAC, Carter, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, McHale, Lebron, Wade, Niqu, etc...
Let's face it, he only ranks higher because of rings. Rings he would never have won in another team. Playing in Los Angeles made this chucker bigger than life. He was a great second option to Shaq. But any of those wings I named would have done the same. He won three rings that don't really count like MJ's, Duncan's, Shaq's. He then missed the playoffs. Two straight first round exits when he tried to lead a team. Got his wish because he plays in Los Angeles and gets a great big. Wins two titles with the deepest team in the league. In 09 The Celtics would have repeated if KG doesn't go down. In 2010 he showed us all he just isn't as clutch as people make him seem. Now without his bigs producing he is back to being just a chucker. Had he played in another city, everyone would just group him with the rest of the good wing scorers.
I have a hard time believing this guy is a better player than TMAC, Lebron or Barkley. Let's not act like Lebron wouldn't have won rings playing with prime Shaq.

Now now, don't overrate Kobe like that.

[jjayfive]

kobe ranked 8-12 all time

[Chrono90]

Kobe is just another TMAC, Carter, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, McHale, Lebron, Wade, Niqu, etc...
Let's face it, he only ranks higher because of rings. Rings he would never have won in another team. Playing in Los Angeles made this chucker bigger than life. He was a great second option to Shaq. But any of those wings I named would have done the same. He won three rings that don't really count like MJ's, Duncan's, Shaq's. He then missed the playoffs. Two straight first round exits when he tried to lead a team. Got his wish because he plays in Los Angeles and gets a great big. Wins two titles with the deepest team in the league. In 09 The Celtics would have repeated if KG doesn't go down. In 2010 he showed us all he just isn't as clutch as people make him seem. Now without his bigs producing he is back to being just a chucker. Had he played in another city, everyone would just group him with the rest of the good wing scorers.
I have a hard time believing this guy is a better player than TMAC, Lebron or Barkley. Let's not act like Lebron wouldn't have won rings playing with prime Shaq.

this guy doesnt know basketball

[bizil]

If u are firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT players ever, U are a first tier great not a second tier great. I think the top 5 GOAT are MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, and Magic. After that, Kobe has a case for the sixth GOAT. His resume at this point has grown to be on the level if not better than Bird, who I usually considered and still arguably is number six. It will be hard for Kobe to get in the top five because those guys along with Bird are such mythic type figures in American sports. All six redefined their positions and the NBA in general. All six are also most likely in the top 30 athletes EVER in American sports history. But I do think Kobe has done enough to be arguably ranked over GOAT wise. Kobe's resume is that damn good.

[Big#50]

If u are firmly entrenched in the top 10 GOAT players ever, U are a first tier great not a second tier great. I think the top 5 GOAT are MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, and Magic. After that, Kobe has a case for the sixth GOAT. His resume at this point has grown to be on the level if not better than Bird, who I usually considered and still arguably is number six. It will be hard for Kobe to get in the top five because those guys along with Bird are such mythic type figures in American sports. All six redefined their positions and the NBA in general. All six are also most likely in the top 30 athletes EVER in American sports history. But I do think Kobe has done enough to be arguably ranked over GOAT wise. Kobe's resume is that damn good.
His resume is filled with all nba teams that weren't deserved. any real basketball fan can see that. He missed the playoffs. Quit on his team in a game 7. Shot 6/24. Had the worst finals ever for a top 15 player. You think he geys all those all NBA and all NBA defensive nods playing in Charlotte?