The Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant double standard

[Kobe 4 The Win]

The Spurs have reloaded and are playing some great basketball. They might win another title this year. However, Duncan can barely get off the ground. He was never a leaper but at this point I think my mother-in-law could out jump him. His offensive production has dipped to the point where he can only give you 15 or 16 points. He can't play big minutes anymore. He's not dominant by any stretch of the imagination. He's clearly not "The Man" on this team and he hasn't been for a while.

Why are people not talking about how his legs are shot, calling him a sidekick, and saying that he's being carried? Caling him nothing more than a player who got lucky to get drafted by San Antonio. To listen to people here, you would think that Kobe Bryant was a glorified role player during LA's 2000, 2001 and 2002 titles. Bull Shit. Duncan is obviously one of the all-time greats and I don't mean to shit on him but there's a double standard here.

I understand the desire to dig a little deeper in order to form opinions about who you think is better or more valuable or had a better career. At what point are we just trying to find a lame excuse to diminish the accomplishments of the players we don't like? A lot of this BS takes root and people start buying into it.

:no: Not so fast guys

[andgar923]

The Spurs have reloaded and are playing some great basketball. They might win another title this year. However, Duncan can barely get off the ground. He was never a leaper but at this point I think my mother-in-law could out jump him. His offensive production has dipped to the point where he can only give you 15 or 16 points. He can't play big minutes anymore. He's not dominant by any stretch of the imagination. He's clearly not "The Man" on this team and he hasn't been for a while.

Why are people not talking about how his legs are shot, calling him a sidekick, and saying that he's being carried? Caling him nothing more than a player who got lucky to get drafted by San Antonio. To listen to people here, you would think that Kobe Bryant was a glorified role player during LA's 2000, 2001 and 2002 titles. Bull Shit. Duncan is obviously one of the all-time greats and I don't mean to shit on him but there's a double standard here.

I understand the desire to dig a little deeper in order to form opinions about who you think is better or more valuable or had a better career. At what point are we just trying to find a lame excuse to diminish the accomplishments of the players we don't like? A lot of this BS takes root and people start buying into it.

:no: Not so fast guys
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[G-train]

Duncan impacts the game completely different to Bryant.
He also plays with better team mates, not just skill wise but IQ wise. He also plays for the best coach.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Thanks for digging the depths of your intelect to come up with that response. You really are an asset here.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Duncan impacts the game completely different to Bryant.
He also plays with better team mates, not just skill wise but IQ wise. He also plays for the best coach.

I agree that it is difficult to compare a shooting guard to a Center but putting up 29/7/6 (2001 playoffs) doesn't impact the game? Duncan gets 3 or 4 asists a game and he has a better IQ than Kobe getting 5 or 6 asists a game as a 2 guard? Basketball IQ has never been a problem for Kobe. Westbrook is a guy who lacks a little BBIQ.

[SCdac]

His offensive production has dipped to the point where he can only give you 15 or 16 points.

I guess you missed the series before this... :confusedshrug:

[DuMa]

defense is a big key too why the Spurs have been rolling the opposition. who do you think anchors the defense :facepalm. Tim Duncan is not an one trick pony

[Kobe 4 The Win]

defense is a big key too why the Spurs have been rolling the opposition. who do you think anchors the defense :facepalm. Tim Duncan is not an one trick pony

Duncan doesn't have the lateral quickness or the leaping ability to be a top level defender right now. Plus he spends a lot of time on the bench. Kobe was always either first or second team all-defense during the 3peat. Kobe was far from a one trick pony even back then.

[tpols]

defense is a big key too why the Spurs have been rolling the opposition. who do you think anchors the defense :facepalm. Tim Duncan is not an one trick pony
Lets not act like Tim Duncan is still Tim Duncan on defense.. he's not anchoring anything as much as they are just playing great team defense. It's just as silly as proclaiming Kobe is still a defensive all 1st teamer.

And it's true.. 01 and 02 Kobe are MILES and miles ahead of current Duncan. Even 00 Kobe was better. But you will have Spurs Homers saying that this title will be another one for Duncan as the 'man' acting as though it means anything.

If anything I think the Spurs winning and being a dominant team hurts duncan.. it shows that depth, team play, and coaching have always been the spurs strong suits, but because everyone always wants to attribute each ring to a superstar, he has recieved more praise than is due.

[andgar923]

defense is a big key too why the Spurs have been rolling the opposition. who do you think anchors the defense :facepalm. Tim Duncan is not an one trick pony

And even tho he doesn't run the point, he anchors the offense as well. Almost everything revolves around him because the defense is still focused on him, just like they focus on Kobe.

He opens up the floor, his picks set his players up, defenders run around to cover him and this causes switches and matchup problems, etc.etc.

Kobe fans are enthralled with PPG so much that they're blinded to other aspects of the game.

[DonDadda59]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.

[SCdac]

If anything I think the Spurs winning and being a dominant team hurts duncan...

:roll:

Riiiight

and let me guess, Kobe losing while he chucks away helps his legacy?

[chazzy]

he anchors the offense as well
:facepalm Right, Duncan is out there anchoring the #1 offense in the league right now.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

So now we are going to crown him for setting screens? Kurt Rambis used to set good screens.

You guys are acting like Kobe was just a scorer back then. He was first or second team all defense getting 5, 6 or 7 assists a game. Come on son.

[tpols]

:facepalm Right, Duncan is out there anchoring the #1 offense in the league right now.
It such a joke.:oldlol:

And to SCDac yes Kobe fvcked up.. but his team did as well. Pau Gasol averaging whatever he averaged.. what was it? 12/10 on 44% shooting as a 7'1 player? It was pathetic. If Parker was shooting in the 30%s and playing like shit the Spurs would've lost to the Thunder too. Shit.. they might lose to them anyway.

If Kobe plays the 'Duncan role' this year.. same result. Who would've stepped up against the Thunder. Everyone was getting locked up. Sessions playing like shit and being scared had little to do with Kobe. Pau playing passive had little to do with Kobe. Bynum going from Shaq to Kwame from game to game wasnt on Kobe. Maybe if LA had a guy like pop who knew how to dictate an offense they wouldve been able to synchronize their pieces better.. but they dont. They had Mike Potatoe Head Brown.

[DonDadda59]

So now we are going to crown him for setting screens? Kurt Rambis used to set good screens.

You guys are acting like Kobe was just a scorer back then. He was first or second team all defense getting 5, 6 or 7 assists a game. Come on son.

What's your point exactly? That Kobe was a great sidekick to Shaq during the Lakers 3-peat? No one will argue that. No one is saying Duncan is the #1 option on the Spurs or that he's carrying the team like Shaq right now... so what 'double standard' are you talking about exactly? :confusedshrug:

[Odinn]

http://www.vacamole.xpg.com.br/wp-content/uploads/nao-click_fap_fap.jpg

[SCdac]

If Kobe plays the 'Duncan role' this year.. same result.

Is that even possible? Who would Kobe take a lesser role to? ... He's too stubborn and in love with his own image to do that.

[Da_Realist]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.

Nice job. :applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.
Last 3 games

6/15 FG
2/11 FG
5/15 FG, 2 rebounds

31.7% from a big man :bowdown:

[StateOfMind12]

Is that even possible? Who would Kobe take a lesser role to? ... He's too stubborn and in love with his own image to do that.
This......honestly Kobe should be a top 5 player of all-time in my opinion but his stubbornness and his narcissism is the ultimate reason why he isn't. What made Kobe great was what also made him not as great as he could have been.

[kurt_rambis]

OLD MAN DUNCAN ONLY 2 REBOUNDS TONIGHT

7-26 SHOOTING LAST TWO GAMES

STICK A FORK IN HIM HE'S DONE

BOOOOOO

am i hating right?

[andgar923]

So now we are going to crown him for setting screens? Kurt Rambis used to set good screens.

You guys are acting like Kobe was just a scorer back then. He was first or second team all defense getting 5, 6 or 7 assists a game. Come on son.

YOu Kobe fans keep exposing yourselves as the ignorant morons that you are. Your understanding of basketball is minute. If I have to explain this in detail then just shoot yourself on the foot.

[tpols]

Last 3 games

6/15 FG
2/11 FG
5/15 FG, 2 rebounds

31.7% from a big man :bowdown:
Seriously.. Anchoring the offense and defense on the best team in the league.:bowdown: :bowdown:

[DonDadda59]

Last 3 games

6/15 FG
2/11 FG
5/15 FG, 2 rebounds

31.7% from a big man :bowdown:

And the Lakers won the championship in '00 with Kobe putting up 15 PPG on 36% shooting if I'm not mistaken.

*Cue the Kobe's insert body part here was injured but he had that one good game excuse*

Duncan is 36 years old, big men traditionally age much faster and much more noticably than guards for obvious reasons. He should be thinking retirement at this point, but he's still good for c. 16 PPG/10PPG and great interior defense when he gets his minutes.

[MeLO MvP 15]

:kobe:
































http://i54.tinypic.com/2s1xd6v.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

And the Lakers won the championship in '00 with Kobe putting up 15 PPG on 36% shooting if I'm not mistaken.

*Cue the Kobe's insert body part here was injured but he had that one good game excuse*

Duncan is 36 years old, big men traditionally age much faster and much more noticably than guards for obvious reasons. He should be thinking retirement at this point, but he's still good for c. 16 PPG/10PPG and great interior defense when he gets his minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI You see Duncan doing that?

Also playing only 9 minutes in game 2 brought down his stats, and he WAS injured.

[t-rex]

The Spurs have reloaded and are playing some great basketball. They might win another title this year. However, Duncan can barely get off the ground. He was never a leaper but at this point I think my mother-in-law could out jump him. His offensive production has dipped to the point where he can only give you 15 or 16 points. He can't play big minutes anymore. He's not dominant by any stretch of the imagination. He's clearly not "The Man" on this team and he hasn't been for a while.

Why are people not talking about how his legs are shot, calling him a sidekick, and saying that he's being carried? Caling him nothing more than a player who got lucky to get drafted by San Antonio. To listen to people here, you would think that Kobe Bryant was a glorified role player during LA's 2000, 2001 and 2002 titles. Bull Shit. Duncan is obviously one of the all-time greats and I don't mean to shit on him but there's a double standard here.

I understand the desire to dig a little deeper in order to form opinions about who you think is better or more valuable or had a better career. At what point are we just trying to find a lame excuse to diminish the accomplishments of the players we don't like? A lot of this BS takes root and people start buying into it.

:no: Not so fast guys

Bryant's first 3 championships were Shaqs more than Kobe's. To call those championships Kobe's in the sphere of this debate would be like calling the Bulls 6 titles for Scotty Pippen instead of MJ.

So to argue who has had the most help with regard to winning championships is a little off.

Duncan was the man for 3 NBA Championships and was an important factor on a 4th. And possibly a 5th.

Kobe was the man for 2 NBA Championships and was an important factor for another 3.

Just because one player scored more points than another player, that by itself doesn't mean that player is better.

During the 1980s Alex English scored more than Magic and Bird. But who were the better players?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.

Don killin' em slow. Fantastic post, my dude. :pimp:

[jstern]

I always complain about this because people put so much into rings, rather than circumstance. Duncan is not the player he used to be, yet his team is great. So if he wins another championship somehow it puts him at a higher ranking than everybody else. And the same thing with Kobe. He has been extremely lucky in his career, bad finals performance and constantly getting bailed out by teammates, and his ranking is so high right now when other similar players would have had similar success, if not more if they played for some of the Lakers team. If he had stayed with the Hornets, probably no rings and the fanboys would have been worshiping somebody else. So in short, rings are overrated. If anything what should be considered is how the players got the rings. Clutch shooting, over coming challenges, etc.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI You see Duncan doing that?

Also playing only 9 minutes in game 2 brought down his stats, and he WAS injured.

Right on CUE :oldlol: .

So basically the Lakers won the championship with a one-legged Kobe not even playing most of the series and putting up a measly 15 PPG on 36%?

So for Kobe fans to consider Duncan to be the '1B' to Parker's '1A' option like you past revisionists like to do with the Shaq era, will Timmy only have to average around the same at age 36 as Kobe did at age 21 in the finals (assuming the Spurs make it there)? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Right on CUE :oldlol: .

So basically the Lakers won the championship with a one-legged Kobe not even playing most of the series and putting up a measly 15 PPG on 36%?

So for Kobe fans to consider Duncan to be the '1B' to Parker's '1A' option like you past revisionists like to do with the Shaq era, will Timmy only have to average around the same at age 36 as Kobe did at age 21 in the finals (assuming the Spurs make it there)? :confusedshrug:
No. Kobe was 1B in '01 and '02. 2000 Shaq averaged 10 more PPG in the Playoffs that year, and 23 more PPG in the Finals.

But in a pivotal Game 4, Kobe won them the game to get up 3-1. With 28 points and 8 in OT with Shaq fouled out.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

What's your point exactly? That Kobe was a great sidekick to Shaq during the Lakers 3-peat? No one will argue that. No one is saying Duncan is the #1 option on the Spurs or that he's carrying the team like Shaq right now... so what 'double standard' are you talking about exactly? :confusedshrug:

My point is that Duncan doesn't get criticized for his obvious decline while Kobe gets nitpicked for any imagined "flaw" that people can come up with. Kobe had a knee injury and all you heard was that he lost a step and that he was finished. My point is that if Kobe scored 15ppg next year he would get crucified.

My point is that Kobe wasn't a sidekick when Shaq was there. He was every bit as important to those title as Shaquille was or Phil Jackson was. My point is that he has never been carried to anything. My point is that people are constantly trying to dream up ways in or to make 3 of Kobe's 5 rings "not count" while giving Duncan full credit for this championship (if they win it).

[kurt_rambis]

And the Lakers won the championship in '00 with Kobe putting up 15 PPG on 36% shooting if I'm not mistaken.

*Cue the Kobe's insert body part here was injured but he had that one good game excuse*

Duncan is 36 years old, big men traditionally age much faster and much more noticably than guards for obvious reasons. He should be thinking retirement at this point, but he's still good for c. 16 PPG/10PPG and great interior defense when he gets his minutes.
duncan playing well at 36 isn't a huge deal. kareem, moses, hakeem, even fat ass shaq were all putting up more than solid numbers at that age. centers can play at a high level for a long time because while you lose athleticism with age, you don't lose height

[tpols]

Right on CUE :oldlol: .

So basically the Lakers won the championship with a one-legged Kobe not even playing most of the series and putting up a measly 15 PPG on 36%?

So for Kobe fans to consider Duncan to be the '1B' to Parker's '1A' option like you past revisionists like to do with the Shaq era, will Timmy only have to average around the same at age 36 as Kobe did at age 21 in the finals (assuming the Spurs make it there)? :confusedshrug:
When has the 2000 ring ever been used to prop Kobe? The only reason people are defending Kobe's 2000 performance here, where he was an all NBA defensive guard and 21/5/4 player en route to the championship, is because he was a better player than Duncan was this year.. easily.

And you have spurs fans here saying this will propel Duncan's legacy and meanwhile there are idiots here like you saying Kobe's 2000 playoff run hurts him Thirty six percent huhuhuh.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Bryant's first 3 championships were Shaqs more than Kobe's. To call those championships Kobe's in the sphere of this debate would be like calling the Bulls 6 titles for Scotty Pippen instead of MJ.

So to argue who has had the most help with regard to winning championships is a little off.

Duncan was the man for 3 NBA Championships and was an important factor on a 4th. And possibly a 5th.

Kobe was the man for 2 NBA Championships and was an important factor for another 3.

Just because one player scored more points than another player, that by itself doesn't mean that player is better.

During the 1980s Alex English scored more than Magic and Bird. But who were the better players?

I don't understand this concept of declaring championships Shaq's or Jordan's. If Kobe isn't there they don't win those. If Pippen isn't there Chicago doesn't win. If Phil Jackson isn't there do any of these teams win? Kobe contributed at a superstar level to those titles. You are full of shit.

[onhcetum]

Because he is still very much (actually, scratch that HE IS) the defensive anchor of that team. He changes games on the defensive end of the floor with the blocks and rebounds and altering shots. When was the last time the Spurs had a legitimate center? 7 years ago? btw 6'8" old man Kurt Thomas, old man 6'9" McDyess, 6'5" dejuan blair dont count

[t-rex]

I don't understand this concept of declaring championships Shaq's or Jordan's. If Kobe isn't there they don't win those. If Pippen isn't there Chicago doesn't win. If Phil Jackson isn't there do any of these teams win? Kobe contributed at a superstar level to those titles. You are full of shit.


I disagree. What separates the NBA from most other team sports is that one player can make a big difference. In the NFL you can be the best player in the game and be nowhere close to a Super Bowl. But in the NBA, if you have the best player, you have a shot. Therefore, when you are discussing the very elite all time great NBA players in the history of the game, Championships are a factor. Its not the only factor. But it is important.

For this discussion, how many times you led your team to the championship as the teams best player is relevant.

[ILLsmak]

I agree that it is difficult to compare a shooting guard to a Center but putting up 29/7/6 (2001 playoffs) doesn't impact the game? Duncan gets 3 or 4 asists a game and he has a better IQ than Kobe getting 5 or 6 asists a game as a 2 guard? Basketball IQ has never been a problem for Kobe. Westbrook is a guy who lacks a little BBQ.

Let's get Westbrook some BBQ.

-Smak

[DonDadda59]

No. Kobe was 1B in '01 and '02. 2000 Shaq averaged 10 more PPG in the Playoffs that year, and 23 more PPG in the Finals.

But in a pivotal Game 4, Kobe won them the game to get up 3-1. With 28 points and 8 in OT with Shaq fouled out.

No, Kobe was Shaq's sidekick. No one who watched the Lakers back then was calling Kobe '1B', that shit is a product of revisionist History that I haven't seen anywhere but here. Shaq was the man not only on the Lakers, but in the entire league, and that's why Kobe hated him.


My point is that Duncan doesn't get criticized for his obvious decline while Kobe gets nitpicked for any imagined "flaw" that people can come up with. Kobe had a knee injury and all you heard was that he lost a step and that he was finished. My point is that if Kobe scored 15ppg next year he would get crucified.

He's not criticized because he's not putting up 18 FGA like he did when he was the best player in the league and bringing his team down with his inefficiency. He understood that with his decline, he had to change up his game and the Spurs had to change their approach. Kobe on the other hand refuses to accept the fact that he's past his best days and that going through the bigs is the best approach. He's jacking up more shots than he has in years while shooting the worse he has since he was a teenager. The result- 2 straight second round exits for the Lakers.

Kobe wouldn't get crucified next year if he put up 15 PPG if he was taking like 15 PPG and shooting like 48% and doing everything else (rebounding, passing, defense, etc) and the Lakers changed their approach like the Spurs did and they had the top seed, advanced past the 2nd round, and competed for another ring. He would be praised for his selflessness, lack of ego, playing for the greater good.


My point is that Kobe wasn't a sidekick when Shaq was there. He was every bit as important to those title as Shaquille was or Phil Jackson was. My point is that he has never been carried to anything. My point is that people are constantly trying to dream up ways in or to make 3 of Kobe's 5 rings "not count" while giving Duncan full credit for this championship (if they win it).

Kobe was Shaq's sidekick, like Pippen was Jordan's sidekick. It's really simple- basketball is a team sport and a lot goes into winning a championship, it takes a whole team from top to bottom, including the coaching staff. But there are certain players who pull more of the load than others. Certain guys' rings are worth more than others for a reason. Does anyone consider John Havlicek (criminally underrated btw), Scottie Pippen, or even Robert Horry as top 10 players all time? They have more rings than most guys generally considered top 10 ATGs.

It's not about "not counting", it's about weight. Shaq's '06 ring with Wade isn't worth the same as his Lakers' 3-peat rings. But the ring still counts, Shaq will always be considered a 4 time champion.

If you want to say Duncan's hypothetical ring isn't worth as much as his earlier ones, not many people would argue (assuming he doesn't turn back the clock against Udonis Haslem, which wouldn't surprise me :oldlol: ). But he would still be a 5 time NBA champion.

[chazzy]

Kobe wouldn't get crucified next year if he put up 15 PPG if he was taking like 15 PPG and shooting like 48% and doing everything else (rebounding, passing, defense, etc) and the Lakers changed their approach like the Spurs did and they had the top seed, advanced past the 2nd round, and competed for another ring. He would be praised for his selflessness, lack of ego, playing for the greater good.

He doesn't have the luxury of dialing back his game to 15ppg like that and still have his team succeed right now. They need to make roster changes for that to happen.. not enough shooters, playmakers, consistent shot creators. Not mention an elite offensive system like San Antonio.

[Da_Realist]

This......honestly Kobe should be a top 5 player of all-time in my opinion but his stubbornness and his narcissism is the ultimate reason why he isn't. What made Kobe great was what also made him not as great as he could have been.

Very well said. :applause:

[Pinkhearts]

Oh grow up already.

Duncan is a great player

Kobe is a great player too

That's reality. Haters will hate and try to bring them down, but Kobe has been higher up there and gets more hate. That's just how it is.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No, Kobe was Shaq's sidekick. No one who watched the Lakers back then was calling Kobe '1B', that shit is a product of revisionist History that I haven't seen anywhere but here. Shaq was the man not only on the Lakers, but in the entire league, and that's why Kobe hated him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WC1.html

4/8 series he led the team in PPG in those 2 Postseasons

2001 Playoffs - 4th Quarter/OT
Bryant - 40/80 FG, 7/18 3PT, 50.0 FG%, 54.4 eFG%, 38.9 3PT% in 16 games
O'Neal - 38/71 FG, 0/0 3PT, 53.5 FG%, 53.5 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 16 games

2002 Playoffs - 4th Quarter/OT
Bryant - 52/106 FG, 12/24 3PT, 49.1 FG%, 54.7 eFG%, 50.0 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 32/85 FG, 0/0 3PT, 37.6 FG%, 37.6 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 18 games

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2001&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=LAL&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=12&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2002&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=LAL&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=12&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

Led the team in 4th Quarter PPG in the 2 Postseasons

[raid09]

:facepalm Really OP?

You're about 1.5 years too late. Duncan's decline from a top 5 player to just very good was apparent two seasons ago. He's also better on the bad nights and worse on the good nights, which makes the transition less apparent.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WCS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WC1.html

4/8 series he led the team in PPG

2001 Playoffs - 4th Quarter/OT
Bryant - 40/80 FG, 7/18 3PT, 50.0 FG%, 54.4 eFG%, 38.9 3PT% in 16 games
O'Neal - 38/71 FG, 0/0 3PT, 53.5 FG%, 53.5 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 16 games

2002 Playoffs - 4th Quarter/OT
Bryant - 52/106 FG, 12/24 3PT, 49.1 FG%, 54.7 eFG%, 50.0 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 32/85 FG, 0/0 3PT, 37.6 FG%, 37.6 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 18 games

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2001&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=LAL&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=12&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2002&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=LAL&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=12&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

Led the team in 4th Quarter PPG in the 2 Postseasons

Good for him (not that the hack-a-Shaq had anything to do with it of course) :applause:

Shaq won a regular season MVP and 3 Finals MVPs during the 3-peat, but yeah 4th quarter PPG in 2 postseasons is equal to that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Good for him :applause:

Shaq won a regular season MVP and 3 Finals MVPs during the 3-peat, but yeah 4th quarter PPG in 2 postseasons is equal to that.
:facepalm I didn't call him the best
He was 1B in '01 & '02

[IcanzIIravor]

I wouldn't worry about it. They are both first ballot HOF's. Duncan has been quiet and steady throughout his career. I see no reason to bring him into the Kobe debate. Kobe is one of the most celebrated/hated super stars in NBA history and with that comes the admirers and those who seek to dismiss his legacy. As a Laker fan you should just kick back and enjoy Kobe while he is hear. After he is retired I think you will see a reassessment of his accomplishments and a lot of the polarization will die down.

[DonDadda59]

:facepalm I didn't call him the best
He was 1B

Yeah, and like I said that '1B' thing is just revisionist bullshit conjured up by the stans here. No one who actually watched those games was calling it a 1A/1B situation. Shaq was the man not only on the Lakers, but in the entire league, played some of the most outright dominant basketball the NBA has ever seen.

Most people rank Shaq's dominance during that era alongside Jordan's during his first 3-peat run... and there's a reason for that.

So once again, Shaq- 1 reg. season MVP, 3 finals MVP, all time dominance. Kobe- led in 1/4 qtr PPG in 2 post seasons. Shaq- Da Man, Kobe- Da Sidekick.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Kobe Bryant is not anyone's sidekick. He's been playing at a superstar level for more than a decade. He was a crucial part of all of those championship teams. He was not Derek Fisher, he was not Robert Horry. It was Shaq and Kobe, a 2 superstar team. Kobe has five rings, they all count. Tough shit for you all.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe Bryant is not anyone's sidekick. He's been playing at a superstar level for more than a decade. He was a crucial part of all of those championship teams. He was not Derek Fisher, he was not Robert Horry. It was Shaq and Kobe, a 2 superstar team. Kobe has five rings, they all count. Tough shit for you all.

Using your logic, then you must agree that John Havlicek has a case for being higher than Kobe on the all time list, no? :confusedshrug:

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Using your logic, then you must agree that John Havlicek has a case for being higher than Kobe on the all time list, no? :confusedshrug:

That wasn't really the point of this thread. The point was that Duncan has significantly declined, doesn't get any shit for it and would get full credit by most people if they win it all this year. Meanwhile several of Kobe's titles "don't count" for various idiotic reasons even though he was playing at a superstar level for all of them.

But since you brought it up....Havlicek has like 8 rings and he was a key contributor. His stats were very good and he made some championship saving plays. Kobe is higher on my list but it's only because I never saw Hondo play. I have a hard time with guys from the 50's, 60's and 70's just because I wasn't around to watch them. There are some other variables as well like the fact that there were far less teams in the league. But if somebody came at me and said Havlicek is a top ten player of all time, how am I gonna say no he isn't?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you talking about?

Duncan is out there headlining that #1 offense out there by scoring 12.7 ppg on 32% shooting against the Thunder after 3 games.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

What are you talking about?

Duncan is out there headlining that #1 offense out there by scoring 12.7 ppg on 32% shooting against the Thunder after 3 games.

:kobe: lol

[nashwade]

because duncan is boring and nobody wants to discuss boring

[Droid101]

Kobe is a better basketball player than Duncan.

Peak, prime, longevity, whatever. Give it up.

[tpols]

What are you talking about?

Duncan is out there headlining that #1 offense out there by scoring 12.7 ppg on 32% shooting against the Thunder after 3 games.
And 8 rpg while anchoring that D. LOL.. where'd Don go? Andgar? Kuniva?

Guess Kobe's 31+ppg on 42+% doesnt look too bad against the same exact competition.:oldlol:

[tpols]

Kobe is a better basketball player than Duncan.

Peak, prime, longevity, whatever. Give it up.
I wouldnt give him peak. He's got everything else by an even bigger margin though.

[Smoke117]

Duncan doesn't have the lateral quickness or the leaping ability to be a top level defender right now. Plus he spends a lot of time on the bench. Kobe was always either first or second team all-defense during the 3peat. Kobe was far from a one trick pony even back then.

So now Kobe affects the game the same as Tim Duncan did defensively? :roll: Ah Laker fans...you make it too easy indeed. Tim Duncan is still one of the best defensive bigs in the league. He may still not have his legs under him like Kevin Garnett anymore, but he's still far more affective than 90% of the PF's in this league at defense.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

So now Kobe affects the game the same as Tim Duncan did defensively? :roll: Ah Laker fans...you make it too easy indeed. Tim Duncan is still one of the best defensive bigs in the league. He may still not have his legs under him like Kevin Garnett anymore, but he's still far more affective than 90% of the PF's in this league at defense.

Learn to read you stupid f**k. I wote that Duncan isn't playing defense right now at the same level he used to. I then used Kobe's 1st and 2nd team all-defense to illustrate that Kobe was more than "just" a scorer or a one trick pony. I no point did I state that Kobe's defense affects the game like a Center. Just keep in mind that Duncan isn't exactly affecting much when he's on the bench half the game in favor of Splitter. Dude is old as f**k. Niggah got 2 rebounds tonight, 2!

[Smoke117]

Learn to read you stupid f**k. I wote that Duncan isn't playing defense right now at the same level he used to. I then used Kobe's 1st and 2nd team all-defense to illustrate that Kobe was more than "just" a scorer or a one trick pony. I no point did I state that Kobe's defense affects the game like a Center. Just keep in mind that Duncan isn't exactly affecting much when he's on the bench half the game in favor of Splitter. Dude is old as f**k. Niggah got 2 rebounds tonight, 2!


Ah stupid **** Am I? Listen Kobe likes white women not ghetto ass black negro dick that come on internet boards and insult people. Your big lips may be good at sucking a blunt, but they aren't getting close kobe's ****, so chill out. Laker's are GONE FISHING. Go hang out on the street corner with a Magnum and chill out, son. Your team and the man who gets your nuts tense is irrelevant now.

[Horatio33]

Duncan doesn't have the lateral quickness or the leaping ability to be a top level defender right now. Plus he spends a lot of time on the bench. Kobe was always either first or second team all-defense during the 3peat. Kobe was far from a one trick pony even back then.

Hahaha! He never was a great leaper! But did you see his block on Griffin last round? No leaping ability required! It's not all about athleticism kids!

Duncan does more off the ball than Kobe. Sets picks, better communicator, protects the basket, boxes out his man AND his teammates man if his teammate is in better position to get the rebound.

Also he is a better leader. Players don't do dumb stuff like fire a three because the aren't getting enough touches or smash someone in the head after celebrating a basket.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Ah stupid **** Am I?

Yes


Your big lips

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/IpreferKeaton/ThatsRacistMeme.jpg


Listen Kobe likes white women not ghetto ass black negro dick that come on internet boards and insult people. Your big lips may be good at sucking a blunt, but they aren't getting close kobe's ****, so chill out. Laker's are GONE FISHING. Go hang out on the street corner with a Magnum and chill out, son. Your team and the man who gets your nuts tense is irrelevant now.

This post is a great way to prove your intelligence. How silly of me to question it. Come on son, back to basketball related bickering.

[Smoke117]

You are too young to know the sly humor behind "racism". I've never been called a racist in my face to face because I'm not I was teasing your emotions. Seeing if you are an idiot or not.

[Horatio33]

It such a joke.:oldlol:

And to SCDac yes Kobe fvcked up.. but his team did as well. Pau Gasol averaging whatever he averaged.. what was it? 12/10 on 44% shooting as a 7'1 player? It was pathetic. If Parker was shooting in the 30%s and playing like shit the Spurs would've lost to the Thunder too. Shit.. they might lose to them anyway.

Kobe doesnt inspire his teammates, he grinds down their will by shooting too much and ball hogging. One of the best post up players in the league and he has had enough of Kobe to the point where he doesn't care anymore.

Take the 09 playoffs. Gasol averaged close to 60 fg%. How many shots a game was he getting? Eleven! Kobe shot 43% and was shooting close to thirty shots a game. Granted they won the title but it seems they won it inspite of Kobe's ego. If you played pick up, the only court round for 1000 miles and scored over half your shots but some guy kept missing over half his shots but kept shooting anyway wouldn't you think "why the hell is he shooting tough shots, I'm playing great and they can't stop me?"

Imagine still putting up with that shit? And you have no choice!

But Kobe is the leader? Haha!

[Kobe 4 The Win]

You are too young to know the sly humor behind "racism". I've never been called a racist in my face to face because I'm not I was teasing your emotions. Seeing if you are an idiot or not.

I wasn't calling you a racist in your face to face ???????

:biggums:

And you can't touch my emotions pimp.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Kobe doesnt inspire his teammates, he grinds down their will by shooting too much and ball hogging. One of the best post up players in the league and he has had enough of Kobe to the point where he doesn't care anymore.

Take the 09 playoffs. Gasol averaged close to 60 fg%. How many shots a game was he getting? Eleven! Kobe shot 43% and was shooting close to thirty shots a game. Granted they won the title but it seems they won it inspite of Kobe's ego. If you played pick up, the only court round for 1000 miles and scored over half your shots but some guy kept missing over half his shots but kept shooting anyway wouldn't you think "why the hell is he shooting tough shots, I'm playing great and they can't stop me?"

Imagine still putting up with that shit? And you have no choice!

But Kobe is the leader? Haha!

I love Gasol but I had league pass and watched evey game that year. Gasol was not and is not capable of being our main option on offense. Kobe tried very hard all year to convince Gasol that he was the best big man in the league and get him the rock. You have to understand that in order to get more shots as a Center/Power Forward you have to be aggressive, get to your spot and present a target so that your guards can get you the ball. Sometimes Pau did that, and some times he did not.

Also part of the reason Pau was so efficient when he did shoot was because of the attention that Kobe demanded from the opposing team. If the 2 guard was JJ Reddick Pau isn't shooting 60%. Period. Again, there's no bigger Pau Gasol fan than me but I can face reality about the guy. Class act, skilled, versatile, long, hard to match up with.......gets passive at inopportune moments. :facepalm

[Horatio33]

I love Gasol but I had league pass and watched evey game that year. Gasol was not and is not capable of being our main option on offense. Kobe tried very hard all year to convince Gasol that he was the best big man in the league and get him the rock. You have to understand that in order to get more shots as a Center/Power Forward you have to be aggressive, get to your spot and present a target so that your guards can get you the ball. Sometimes Pau did that, and some times he did not.

Also part of the reason Pau was so efficient when he did shoot was because of the attention that Kobe demanded from the opposing team. If the 2 guard was JJ Reddick Pau isn't shooting 60%. Period. Again, there's no bigger Pau Gasol fan than me but I can face reality about the guy. Class act, skilled, versatile, long, hard to match up with.......gets passive at inopportune moments. :facepalm

I liked how you changed my name. U Mad?

Yes there is no bigger Gasol fan than you, but you bang on about Kobe all the time.

Pau is passive because he is not getting the ball enough because some volume scorer is taking most of the shots, Pau knows he won't get the ball so he thinks "why bother giving a damn."

[innervisions]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.

Thank you. Kobe isn't overrated because Shaq won him his first three rings. It's because Kobe has taken way too many shots and has antagonized his teammates for his entire career. He's capable of magic moments but can also bring his entire team down with him when he refuses to pass the rock in the 4th quarter on a bad shooting night. His constant narcissism and need to be the man has been a huge disruption with Shaq, Gasol, etc.

When you think of all-time greats like Bird, Magic, Russell, etc. you think of guys who were not only incredible basketball talents but guys who won by making their teammates better. Guys with long careers like Kareem and Duncan adapted their games as time passed. Kobe has rarely had that grace about him and this past season after the departure of Phil Jackson has shown just how disruptive he can be - he had clearly alienated Gasol and Bynum, who for all their mental frailties are the best offensive frontcourt in the NBA. He's not a leader, and for that reason you'll always have people questioning his legacy as a top-ten all-time player and somebody he can be talked about as on the same level as Tim Duncan.

And it shouldn't be so hard to see this. I really question whether Kobe fans are basketball fans. They seem to like Kobe because he's the man and they like that confidence. In a sexual way.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Horatio- Sorry about the name thing. I have a habit of doing that, it amuses me. Wasn't really deserved in this situation.

What we get into with the Kobe/Pau shots thing is a case of the chicken or the egg. I don't believe in the whole "Pau gets passive because he doesn't get the ball" narrative. He gets the touches but he's just not willing to be aggressive and impose his will on the defender every night. I don't know if it's a european thing or if he just isn't confident enough to do it. If he did, I have no doubt that he would be the best big man in the game.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Thank you. Kobe isn't overrated because Shaq won him his first three rings. It's because Kobe has taken way too many shots and has antagonized his teammates for his entire career. He's capable of magic moments but can also bring his entire team down with him when he refuses to pass the rock in the 4th quarter on a bad shooting night. His constant narcissism and need to be the man has been a huge disruption with Shaq, Gasol, etc.

When you think of all-time greats like Bird, Magic, Russell, etc. you think of guys who were not only incredible basketball talents but guys who won by making their teammates better. Guys with long careers like Kareem and Duncan adapted their games as time passed. Kobe has rarely had that grace about him and this past season after the departure of Phil Jackson has shown just how disruptive he can be - he had clearly alienated Gasol and Bynum, who for all their mental frailties are the best offensive frontcourt in the NBA. He's not a leader, and for that reason you'll always have people questioning his legacy as a top-ten all-time player and somebody he can be talked about as on the same level as Tim Duncan.

And it shouldn't be so hard to see this. I really question whether Kobe fans are basketball fans. They seem to like Kobe because he's the man and they like that confidence. In a sexual way.

What the f**k are you basing that on? Have you read any of my posts? Anyone who would even think to say something like that has mental problems.

Most honest Laker fans know that Kobe's confidence gets the best of him sometimes and he will force a shot when he doesn't have to. That isn't what's f**king up our offense. It's any easy way for people to take shots at Kobe but Gasol and Bynum are who they are. I believe that they are the ones that don't fit together and it's not a matter of Kobe retarding their confidence and frustrating them.

Our offense ran a lot smoother when we had Pau at center and Odom at power forward. We won two titles with that configuration. Bynum is growing as a player and he is trying to take the dominant space under the hoop. That, coupled with Mike Brown's "offense" (if you can call it that) is pushing Gasol away from the hoop and taking him out of his game. He isn't a jumpshooter like Chris Bosh or KG. I'd rather keep Gasol and trade Bynum because he's immature and he doesn't give a shit. Jim Buss loves Bynum and he is gonna go the other way. We're pretty much f**ked unless Mitch can pull off a miracle this off-season.

[Doctor Rivers]

Kobe wouldn't get crucified next year if he put up 15 PPG if he was taking like 15 PPG and shooting like 48% and doing everything else...


hahahaha yes he would

[eliteballer]

The Spurs are on a different level of offensive execution right now. Compare their ball movement to the Lakers who were just "dump it to Bynum or Gasol for a one on one or Kobe for a one on one".

Brown needs to work on the offense all offseason.

[Sarcastic]

hahahaha yes he would

Not if his team had the best record in basketball.

[Knoe Itawl]

Thank you. Kobe isn't overrated because Shaq won him his first three rings. It's because Kobe has taken way too many shots and has antagonized his teammates for his entire career. He's capable of magic moments but can also bring his entire team down with him when he refuses to pass the rock in the 4th quarter on a bad shooting night. His constant narcissism and need to be the man has been a huge disruption with Shaq, Gasol, etc.

When you think of all-time greats like Bird, Magic, Russell, etc. you think of guys who were not only incredible basketball talents but guys who won by making their teammates better. Guys with long careers like Kareem and Duncan adapted their games as time passed. Kobe has rarely had that grace about him and this past season after the departure of Phil Jackson has shown just how disruptive he can be - he had clearly alienated Gasol and Bynum, who for all their mental frailties are the best offensive frontcourt in the NBA. He's not a leader, and for that reason you'll always have people questioning his legacy as a top-ten all-time player and somebody he can be talked about as on the same level as Tim Duncan.

And it shouldn't be so hard to see this. I really question whether Kobe fans are basketball fans. They seem to like Kobe because he's the man and they like that confidence. In a sexual way.

This. The love some of these Bryant fanatics have for him borders on some Charles Manson's family type of sh!t. They just can't admit his very obvious flaws (or if they do, they minimize the sh!t out of them, when in actuality they are a MAJOR reason as to why he's not as great as they think he is).

[Doranku]

This. The love some of these Bryant fanatics have for him borders on some Charles Manson's family type of sh!t. They just can't admit his very obvious flaws (or if they do, they minimize the sh!t out of them, when in actuality they are a MAJOR reason as to why he's not as great as they think he is).

Yeah, and your passionate, undying hatred for the guy is just so normal. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Inconvenient truths about the 2004 Finals

- Kobe Bryant was the most 2nd most efficient scorer on the Lakers
- While Shaq shot 63% from the field, he also shot 49% from the FT line including 10-38 (36%) Games 3,4,5
-It's impossible to simply force shots on big men especially against one of the greatest defenses of all time. Do you think Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace are going to simply let Shaq live in the post and average the 70 ppg it would have required for the Lakers to win?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_finals.html

[NumberSix]

If Tim Duncan gets a 5th ring, it doesn't make him any better. He's obviously a MUCH worse player than he used to be. Winning another team title doesn't change that after the fact.

Tim Duncan is now arguably the worst he's been in his NBA career. However good of a player he was is done. Set in stone.

[Knoe Itawl]

Inconvenient truths about the 2004 Finals

- Kobe Bryant was the most 2nd most efficient scorer on the Lakers
- While Shaq shot 63% from the field, he also shot 49% from the FT line including 10-38 (36%) Games 3,4,5
-It's impossible to simply force shots on big men especially against one of the greatest defenses of all time. Do you think Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace are going to simply let Shaq live in the post and average the 70 ppg it would have required for the Lakers to win?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_finals.html

lol!

Not only did Kobe shoot horribly, his assists and rebounds were WAY down, he was getting stripped like a Honda left in a bad neighborhood and his selfish play was just terrible. Just a terrible series no matter what kind of revisionist history his fanboys want to put together.

Here's what makes people like you such a POS. You KNOW he had a horrible series and that there's no excusing it, yet you want to come up with this kind of nonsense to somehow lessen it, as if anyone except your fellow Kobesexuals are buying it. In other words, you'd rather KNOWINGLY obuscate the truth, rather than discussing in good faith. THAT'S why you guys are such lowlives. Not because you like Kobe Bryant.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

lol!

Not only did Kobe shoot horribly, his assists and rebounds were WAY down, he was getting stripped like a Honda left in a bad neighborhood and his selfish play was just terrible. Just a terrible series no matter what kind of revisionist history his fanboys want to put together.

Here's what makes people like you such a POS. You KNOW he had a horrible series and that there's no excusing it, yet you want to come up with this kind of nonsense to somehow lessen it, as if anyone except your fellow Kobesexuals are buying it. In other words, you'd rather KNOWINGLY obuscate the truth, rather than discussing in good faith. THAT'S why you guys are such lowlives. Not because you like Kobe Bryant.

Notice how you spent more time complaining me personally than the basketball points I made. :oldlol:

I never said Kobe Bryant had a great series. I imagine if you ranked all of Kobe playoff performances by pure numbers this one would be near the back. I imagine if you did the same for Shaq you would notice the same thing. That's what happens when you face one of the greatest defenses of all time in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

Create an alternate reality where Kobe is not "selfish". How many more shots is Shaq getting? How many more shots were the even more inefficient non Kobe non Shaq Lakers getting? How would that have changed anything?

[Knoe Itawl]

Notice how you spent more time complaining me personally than the basketball points I made. :oldlol:

I never said Kobe Bryant had a great series. I imagine if you ranked all of Kobe playoff performances by pure numbers this one would be near the back. I imagine if you did the same for Shaq you would notice the same thing. That's what happens when you face one of the greatest defenses of all time in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

Create an alternate reality where Kobe is not "selfish". How many more shots is Shaq getting? How many more shots were the even more inefficient non Kobe non Shaq Lakers getting? How would that have changed anything?

Then what's the point of you posting that nonsense, other than to somehow lessen the blow? You should just say "He was garbage in that series" and leave it at that instead of your Kobesexual desire to revise history to make him look just a little better. No amount of "inconvenient truths" are going to change THE MOST IMPORTANT TRUTH about that series - Kobe stunk it up. The end.

[eliteballer]

In 2004 Kobe was on IV's gassed, no rehab from knee and shoulder surgeries and still led the team in points and assists in the Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Then what's the point of you posting that nonsense, other than to somehow lessen the blow? You should just say "He was garbage in that series" and leave it at that instead of your Kobesexual desire to revise history to make him look just a little better. No amount of "inconvenient truths" are going to change THE MOST IMPORTANT TRUTH about that series - Kobe stunk it up. The end.

Kobe was garbage in that series relative to his average playoff production.
Shaq was garbage in that series relative to his average playoff production.
Malone was garbage in that series relative to his average playoff production.
Payton was garbage in that series relative to his average playoff production.

Happy now? :confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

Because Duncan isn't forcing the issue out there like Kobe. His scoring has dipped but he's not jacking up lead-leaguing FGAs while shooting 43% and alienating his teammates. Unlike Kobe, he understands he can't carry the load like he used to and doesn't have an ego the size of Jupiter. So there was a seamless transition from the Duncan-focused, half court, post-up offense to the new more uptempo Parker and Ginobli-centric offense. Kobe on the other refuses to play second fiddle to anyone, even when the Lakers' advantage is their front court, and that has hurt the team.

Plus, like others have already pointed out- Duncan's impact goes beyond just scoring. He's still pulling down 9+ boards, playing great interior D, and doing the dirty work by setting those screens that free up Parker and co.
That's about it.

[General]

It's just the people who have a disturbing hate for him. Kobe was a top 3-5 player in 2001 and 2002. Duncan is just a shell of himself now, not a fair comparison at all. Duncan is playing a smaller role than Kobe did in 2000 also.

[sundizz]

That's about it.


That's about it.

I remember watching Kobe Bryant in high school, and I was at the great old age of 11 or so when that happened. I remember falling in love with playing basketball at that age and at the same being awed and amazed by Kobe. He's been my favorite player since then. There is not a more frustrating, inspiring, stubborn, against the grain player.

I'm a pretty good player (relative to my level of competition in my life) and I've always had to tried to play 'smart' but have always been the best when it is just instinctual. A lot of times it is when I do dumb things like shoot a three when I'm 6 feet behind the three, or throw a 70 foot outlet pass. It goes bad a lot of times, but doing these stupid things and being in the flow of the game in my way makes those last 5 minute of a game my time. I'm always outmatched physically, skill wise, etc but the last few minutes of a game everyone trusts me to win it for them.

That series is a true testament to believing in yourself; even to the point of failure. Kobe believing in himself (obviously a 1000x more than me) has got him 5 championships. Nothing that happens will deter that belief that his way is the right way. Even when it is chucking. You think he goes home at night and is like man.i shoot 43% compared to 46% I should try to use my teammates more or change my style of play. He will always think that give me the damn ball when it matters and I'll do it one or way or another and lead us to the promised land. He's been to more WCF's, Finals, and Champs than any other player of this generation.

Duncan isn't the assassin. He's the horse. He can change his workload. He can work less and let other people carry the burden. The assassin can't change. He'll just get old, and a step too slow and die.

I'm in South Korea and just had some :cheers: though...after a few months of not..maybe i'm just saying nonsense :confusedshrug: Somehow this is related to Duncan but less cohesively than i thought when i started this thread.

[longtime lurker]

L O L this board kills me. So I guessif the Spurs win Duncans only has 4.5 or 4.25 rings because he's not the "man" on this team. Because keeping it consistent we'd have to scruntinize his rings as much as Kobe's. This is why I don't take any posts on forums seriously. You never hear the true great players bringing up this bs argument.

[LA_Showtime]

I would love to see Kobe play more as a facilitator and average say 18/5/8. It would make this team better, period.

Anyway, this whole argument is pretty stupid, because both sides are comprised of irrational idiots. Yes, Kobe has been selfish, but he's also played the right way and been called out for not putting up gaudy numbers. Game 7 against the Nuggets is a perfect example of that. He did a great job managing the game and getting other guys involved, and yet you had people calling him out afterwards for not scoring 30 plus points. Kobe rarely plays the right way all the time, but even when he does he gets called out. The man can't win.

[Dictator]

Ish is stupid as hell. Duncan has "never" been better than Kobe. Shaq would have three less rings without Kobe.

Kobe & Shaq was 1a/1b. You guys act like Shaq averaged 50ppg or something. Duncan sucks now and should be critized way more than Kobe with Shaq. Hell, Duncan isn't even a second option now.

:facepalm At ppl talking about defense. Did you guys see last night's game? I think the thunder had like 4 alley's........Oh and rebounding, THE DUDE IS 6'11+. Of course he's gonna have a good number rebounds.

[Droid101]

I would love to see Kobe play more as a facilitator and average say 18/5/8. It would make this team better, period.

I think he should go the Ray Allen way. Come off screens. Be the guy that the opposing team goes "Oh no no no no no!" when they see him curling off a screen and getting hit with the ball in just the right spot (preferably from Deron Williams, a guy can dream).

We'll see what he does.

[Knoe Itawl]

I would love to see Kobe play more as a facilitator and average say 18/5/8. It would make this team better, period.

Anyway, this whole argument is pretty stupid, because both sides are comprised of irrational idiots. Yes, Kobe has been selfish, but he's also played the right way and been called out for not putting up gaudy numbers. Game 7 against the Nuggets is a perfect example of that. He did a great job managing the game and getting other guys involved, and yet you had people calling him out afterwards for not scoring 30 plus points. Kobe rarely plays the right way all the time, but even when he does he gets called out. The man can't win.

For me personally it really isn't even about calling Kobe out. He is what he is. He's going to play how he's going to play, and sometimes it'll result in great times and many times it'll result in not so great times. My issue has always been ranking him higher than he deserves to be based on how good of a player his stans WANT him to be, vs how good of a player he IS.

The selfishness, shot selection etc. etc. all go into what make him great, and what take away from his greatness. I focus more on what all that means regarding how good of a player he is cause I don't think he is CAPABLE of playing any other way consistently. For better, and for worse.