Where Does Manu Ginobili Rank All Time

[indiefan23]

What up ISH? I wrote this article about Manu's all time ranking after his amazing game 1 performance. It's pretty difficult to rank that guy all time. What do you guys think is an accurate place to put him?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2012/06/where-does-manu-ginobili-rank-all-time.html

[Doctor Rivers]

Spam

[Nick Young]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

hard to rank a guy whose claim to fame is being a truly great 6th man....and who was never the best guy on his own team.
meh...great player when healthy.

[pauk]

Impossible to rank him as there are 100s of players careers you can compare his career accomplishments, stats, role to and what not

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME
:roll:
He's not even the best SG of all time for his own franchise!

[pauk]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

Ouch.. would love to see your top 20 list..

#1. Kobe

(you can fill out the rest)

[twintowers]

Impossible to rank him as there are 100s of players careers you can compare his career accomplishments, stats, role to and what not


He (Manu) is also one of only two players, along with Bill Bradley, to have won a Euroleague title, an NBA championship, and an Olympic gold medal.
He carried his national team to the gold btw but hey 100s of player's did that...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

He (Manu) is also one of only two players, along with Bill Bradley, to have won a Euroleague title, an NBA championship, and an Olympic gold medal.
He carried his national team to the gold btw but hey 100s of player's did that...
oh my! he won a Euroleague title! very impressive. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Olympic gold, on a very good team, while the US was farting around.

[twintowers]

oh my! he won a Euroleague title! very impressive. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Olympic gold, on a very good team, while the US was farting around.


Fart or no fart Olympic gold is Olympic gold zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ZenMaster]

oh my! he won a Euroleague title! very impressive. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Olympic gold, on a very good team, while the US was farting around.

Come on man, not everyone wins everywhere they play.

And according to most posters here, the US can win international tournaments sporting their D-squad.

[Pushxx]

He's ~top 15 SG.

[returnofthemack]

i have him ranked as number 53 all time

[TaLvsCuaL]

Top 10 SG of all time, arguably top 5.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Come on man, not everyone wins everywhere they play.

And according to most posters here, the US can win international tournaments sporting their D-squad.
How many American greats play in the Euroleague? Hard to win there if you don't play in the second-tier league. How many American greats get to play in the Olympics? Many that have won the gold.
As for NBA title, 3rd best player on his team....most of the time. But still, a great player. I would love to have him on the Lakers, assuming he's healthy.

[DarkSephiroth]

Good read, I kind of agree! He's the best possible thing for that team. Instant Offense!

[Kblaze8855]

I would like someone who thinks it to explain to me why Manu is better than Dennis Johnson who wasnt even given top 50 status.

Few things...



Dennis Johnson was an all NBA first teamer, like a 6 time all star, had about 8 deep playoff runs, won a finals MVP, won 3 rings, made 9 all D teams, stepped up in the playoffs pretty much yearly, was unselfish, well rounded and could and did play and defend 3 positions, and he made several major plays in the finals including:

Blocked an attempted game winner in 79 in a game he had 32/10.
Got a steal and hit the resulting FTs vs the Lakers end of game game 7 in 84
Made the game winner in game 4 in the 85 finals.
Had 22/14 in game 4 of the 84 finals and hit the FTs to seal the game


In the 87 playoffs he averaged 19/9 after 13/8 in the regular season and in the finals:

7 points and 13 assists
20/9/4
26/7/4
15 points and 14 assists
25/11
33/10/5

And his career was winding down.

In the 86 finals

19/11/8
18/7/4
20/7/4
21/4/4
13/5/4
10/5/5/3 steals(they were up by 30 in the 4th)

17/6/5 in the finals in total.


Dennis Johnson was one of the best players in the league, then one of the best role players ever, and he doesnt even get mentioned that often when discussing those celtics. They had a godly frontcourt but he pulled more than his own weight.

DJ was both a superstar and the ultimate role player and didnt know how to lose(the Suns won 57, 46, and 53 with him...and the Sonics won the title...so you cant claim the celtics made him a winner).



Is he not pretty much Manu plus all time great defense and proving he could lead a team himself?

I dont even intend to argue. Id just like to see what could be said to justify it.

[Jacks3]

Manu is a top 5-6 SG ever. The only people hatin are morons who can't look past the meaningless raw stats...

It's not some luck that he has huge advanced stats AND HUGE +/- numbers.

Dude is a big impact player.

lol Dennis Johnson. :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

So Dennis Johnson gets laughed at now?

Thats where we are?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.aoltv.com/media/2009/07/the_wire_season_3_omar_bunk.jpg

"Makes me sick mother****er just how far we done fell...."

[jlauber]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

Where do you rank Sam Jones (as just one of MANY examples)?

[Living Being]

I have Manu set firmly at the #72 all-time spot for NBA players.

[SCdac]

I'd say he's somewhere in between #70 and #100, and as far as SG's somewhere in between #10 and #16.

The last decade (00-10), I'd say only Kobe, Wade, Iverson, McGrady, and Allen were better.

Some would say Vince Carter is better too, and I can fully understand that, but I think there's more to being an all-time great than big stats/production, and at some point you have to realize the success Manu has been a part of is not coincidence or happenstance. Ginobili could probably put up 20 ppg on 17 shots and 22 ppg on 20 shots if given the green light in his prime, but he didn't. Vince could probably contribute to a championship team with a Duncan kind of player, but he didn't. None the less, sometimes felt like Carter wasn't giving it his all, was a locker room negative, and you never saw that with Manu. Think Ginobili's game has age better too, and he's been a better defender through most of their careers.

Comparing Ginobili's best championship run statistically with some other shooting guards of the last couple decades (in a similar role), and I think he holds up. As they're all "shooters" and "scorers", I bolded their ppg.

Hamilton (04) - 40.2 mpg, 21.5 ppg (44.7 FG%), 4.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, 1.2 spg

Kobe (00) - 39.0 mpg, 21.1 ppg (44.2 FG%), 4.4 apg, 4.5 rpg, 1.5 spg

Manu (05) - 33.6 mpg, 20.8 ppg (50.7 FG%), 4.2 apg, 5.8 rpg, 1.2 spg

Drexler (95) - 38.6 mpg, 20.5 ppg (48.1 FG%), 5.0 apg, 7.0 rpg, 1.5 spg

Dumars (89) - 36.5 mpg, 17.6 ppg (45.5 FG%), 5.6 apg, 2.6 rpg, 0.7 spg

Terry (11) - 32.6 mpg, 17.5 ppg (47.8 FG%), 3.2 apg, 1.9 rpg, 1.2 spg

Allen (08) - 38.0 mpg, 15.6 ppg (42.8 FG%), 2.7 apg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 spg

[SuperPippen]

Manu Ginobli is not better than any of the following players.

MJ
Kobe
West
Iverson
Wade
Drexler
Gervin
Jones
Allen
Dumars

He's arguably not even better than Reggie or Maravich.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I've always been a huge fan of Manu, but people claiming he's one of the 20 best basketball players to ever live, and a top 5 SG ever is ridiculous.

[jlauber]

Manu Ginobli is not better than any of the following players.

MJ
Kobe
West
Iverson
Wade
Drexler
Gervin
Jones
Allen
Dumars

He's arguably not even better than Reggie or Maravich.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I've always been a huge fan of Manu, but people claiming he's one of the 20 best basketball players to ever live, and a top 5 SG ever is ridiculous.

This.

[ILLsmak]

I'd say he's somewhere in between #70 and #100, and as far as SG's somewhere in between #10 and #16.

The last decade (00-10), I'd say only Kobe, Wade, Iverson, McGrady, and Allen were better.

Some would say Vince Carter is better too, and I can fully understand that, but I think there's more to being an all-time great than big stats/production, and at some point you have to realize the success Manu has been a part of is not coincidence or happenstance. Ginobili could probably put up 20 ppg on 17 shots and 22 ppg on 20 shots if given the green light in his prime, but he didn't. Vince could probably contribute to a championship team with a Duncan kind of player, but he didn't. None the less, sometimes felt like Carter wasn't giving it his all, was a locker room negative, and you never saw that with Manu. Think Ginobili's game has age better too, and he's been a better defender through most of their careers.

Comparing Ginobili's best championship run statistically with some other shooting guards of the last couple decades (in a similar role), and I think he holds up. As they're all "shooters" and "scorers", I bolded their ppg.

Hamilton (04) - 40.2 mpg, 21.5 ppg (44.7 FG%), 4.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, 1.2 spg

Kobe (00) - 39.0 mpg, 21.1 ppg (44.2 FG%), 4.4 apg, 4.5 rpg, 1.5 spg

Manu (05) - 33.6 mpg, 20.8 ppg (50.7 FG%), 4.2 apg, 5.8 rpg, 1.2 spg

Drexler (95) - 38.6 mpg, 20.5 ppg (48.1 FG%), 5.0 apg, 7.0 rpg, 1.5 spg

Dumars (89) - 36.5 mpg, 17.6 ppg (45.5 FG%), 5.6 apg, 2.6 rpg, 0.7 spg

Terry (11) - 32.6 mpg, 17.5 ppg (47.8 FG%), 3.2 apg, 1.9 rpg, 1.2 spg

Allen (08) - 38.0 mpg, 15.6 ppg (42.8 FG%), 2.7 apg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 spg

Yea, not giving Allen that nod over Manu. There are players that are clearly better at the SG, if you're looking at the modern era... like MJ, Wade, and Kobe.

Iverson and McGrady were definitely better as well, but they didn't win like Manu.

Even so, I think it's fair to rank him as a top 10 SG ESPECIALLY in the clutch. He's definitely a specialist type player. He gives his team what it needs. He's not going to be able to lead a bad team with 30 ppg IMO.

But I also disqualify the non-modern era because I don't think it's a fair comparison. I'm thinking of since there were a lot of teams in the NBA, a 3 point line, etc.

Edit: Is he CLEARLY worse than Dumars? I don't think that's a fair statement. The only guys that I'd say are CLEARLY better than Manu are those that put up 30 a game and won a ring.

-Smak

[WillyJakk]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

Already made my contribution to this site about Manu & I think this is one of the few guys that actually got it right.

Manu is definitely the 3rd Best SG of All Time to me.

All Time Player Ranking, I'd have to sit down and think about it.

[SuperPippen]

Already made my contribution to this site about Manu & I think this is one of the few guys that actually got it right.

Manu is definitely the 3rd Best SG of All Time to me.

All Time Player Ranking, I'd have to sit down and think about it.

No, he really isn't. At all.

[RRR3]

Already made my contribution to this site about Manu & I think this is one of the few guys that actually got it right.

Manu is definitely the 3rd Best SG of All Time to me.

All Time Player Ranking, I'd have to sit down and think about it.
Come to ISH for side-splitting comments like this, kids! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie and Pete are 2 I have no problem seeing Manu step in for. He wouldnt have to do anything to replace Pete except shoot more, not be liked much by his teammates, lose at a rate beyond that of Marbury, and not be wanted by any team in the league when the Hawks wanted to trade him until his home area got a team and needed him for ticket sales. Probably a mean and somewhat unfair way to describe Petes career....especially considering that he played a good bit on that expansion team that traded for him.

But something about his whole story just feels unimpressive. Hes the all time NCAA scoring leader because he played for his dad in school who let him take 38 shots a game while winning nothing. He goes to a Hawks team that was already pretty good and they did nothing. He goes to the Jazz to do nothing. He never wins anything itll hes briefly a Celtic.

He had numbers....kinda. If taking 28 shots a game to score 31 points is great numbers. And he got a few assists...if 4-7 a game on teams that might score 115 a game is impressive. First year the NBA tracked turnovers he averaged 5 a game. 5 flat. Not rounded up.

He sure has skills but...I dont know. Im not sure he did anything I wouldnt expect manu to get done. Maybe a game or two here and there. But for the most part?

Im back and forth on Pete...

[WillyJakk]

Come to ISH for side-splitting comments like this, kids! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Says the jit w/ Tracy McGrady in his avy.

And Tracy was one of my all time favorites (especially for us) and I still root for the dude to this day but please...

Matter of fact, you just reminded me of a thread idea I've had for a LONG time but forgot to post it, gonna do it now. Thanks.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Manu is a top 5-6 SG ever. The only people hatin are morons who can't look past the meaningless raw stats...

It's not some luck that he has huge advanced stats AND HUGE +/- numbers.

Dude is a big impact player.

lol Dennis Johnson. :roll:
jesus f'ing christ!
Kids today don't know jack shit about the history of basketball.
This post is evident.
DJ was a great great player and one of the best on-ball perimeter defenders of all time...just ask Magic Johnson.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Manu Ginobli is not better than any of the following players.

MJ
Kobe
West
Iverson
Wade
Drexler
Gervin
Jones
Allen
Dumars

He's arguably not even better than Reggie or Maravich.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I've always been a huge fan of Manu, but people claiming he's one of the 20 best basketball players to ever live, and a top 5 SG ever is ridiculous.
yup, and you can add a few more names too.

[Kingwillball]

All Time NBA, Maybe top 300

Just to prove my Point he wasnt even as Good as Drazen Petrovic, Whose Career was Cut short thanks to a Tragic Car accident..God Rest his Soul..

[RRR3]

All Time NBA, Maybe top 500
:biggums:

[Kingwillball]

:biggums:


Yeah I changed it to top 300 as I decided that maybe wasnt giving him enough Credit for his Championships..

[indiefan23]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

Wow, I'm a huge fan and I don't think I'd got that far, however, I do think it's a lot, lot closer then anyone really thinks. I LOL at people like whoever I read below who claimed that all Manu is is a 'really good 6'th man'. ;0 I don't know many sixth men who team's give the ball to as their go to guy when titles are on the line.

Who's the 4'th best SG of all time do you think? And thanks if you did like my article. :)

[indiefan23]

Yeah I changed it to top 300 as I decided that maybe wasnt giving him enough Credit for his Championships..

What's worse, ranking Manu 500'th or changing that ranking because he has rings? I'll never get the obsession with rings. So. What.

[RaininTwos]

Top 10 SG of all time, arguably top 5.
:lol :lol :lol :lol

[indiefan23]

I would like someone who thinks it to explain to me why Manu is better than Dennis Johnson who wasnt even given top 50 status.

Few things...

Is he not pretty much Manu plus all time great defense and proving he could lead a team himself?

I dont even intend to argue. Id just like to see what could be said to justify it.

Good points all around dude, but my response is just that Manu didn't need to prove anything in his career. And no, DJ is not just Manu + at all. Sure I'll give him props for his FMVP and all that, no slight to DJ, but Larry Bird wasn't passing him the ball saying "Hey, go make something happen and win this title for us." I also don't know how fair/relevant you think this is, but Dennis Johnson didn't have a solid jumper at all.

Both guys are obviously big parts of each other's all time teams, even if I do think Johnson left winning time to Bird quite a bit more, and it's not even really about those two guys. It's that DJ gets recgonized for his role and Manu doesn't. In terms of silly rankings anyway. But yea, Manu never needed or tried to prove anything. I think that's a huge difference between him an 99.9% of NBA players.

PS: Kblaze mixes effing rule.

[jlauber]

SuperPippen covered the list pretty well, but once again, Sam Jones' career is MILES ahead of Manu's.

He played on teams that won TEN titles, and was a KEY member on SIX (seven counting his last season) of them.

The man hit SEVERAL game-winning shots in his playoff career, too.

He had FOUR seasons of 20+ ppg, and six of over 19, with a high of 25.9. And that 25.9 os deceptive, too, because those Celtic teams were balanced. Had he played on many other teams in his era, he would have scored even more. And, he consistently outshot the league average in FG%, too.

Then, in the post-season, he elevated his scoring, with SEVEN post-seasons of 20+, and highs of 26.7 ppg and 28.6 ppg.

And while I am not sure if he would have won any FMVP in his career (Russell probably would have beaten him out of any possible one's), he was certainly an instrumental player in the majority of them.

In any case, I don't see Ginobili having ANY case over Sam.

[L.Kizzle]

He's not better than JoJo White, that's for sure.

[Kblaze8855]

So that was just me seeing Duncan making all those timely and 1s in the playoffs the last 12 years? Or Parker going to work in 4th quarters?

Manu being the teams primary playmaking ball handler does not mean he was just told to go win them the game. It means hes a guard and bigmen arent handed the ball on inbounding plays to dribble around for 12 seconds and make something happen. Manus role on the spurs is far more position related than ability. Duncan took over many many many games. And Parker didnt win a finals MVP for nothing.

Its always been overstated to me how much heavy lifting Many really had to do in their winning years.

Especially when its compared to Dennis Johnson and its suggested he had to do so much more.

Dennis was out there guarding Magic, and Jordan, and Isiah while also running the offense, scoring, and making game winners in the finals and key defensive plays and handing out 20-30 points often enough to not be surprised. ever see footage of him on the Sonics playing full court press defense flying all over? Guy has made what you could call...title winning...defensive stops.

Not being a better down the stretch clearout scorer than Larry Bird doesnt really say anything of the comparison to Manu.

And the idea that he got so much more credit than Manu is...odd. I have no idea what you could base that on. He was a guy who helped lead a team to a tltle, was all NBA first team, 9 time all D, Bird calls the best player he ever played with, and Russell considers arguably the best celtic ever as a total player. And he wasnt top 50...and didnt even make the HOF until he had died. Every discussion of those teams is of their frontcourt. 95% of nba fans probably cant tell me a single play of his career other than the game winning layup after Birds steal.

But he gets more credit than Manu? who has 3 topics made a week with people ranking him over Jerry West, Drexler, and Wade? The guy who has been one of the more universally praised people since 04 or so? The guy people in this very topic call top 20 all time?

Where can you possibly be getting the idea that DJ got more credit for what he did than Manu has?

People are barely even aware that Dennis Johnson existed. There are people laughing at the mention of him a few inches above your post....

[SCdac]

It sucks to see people "get trolled" so easily when it comes to Manu.

It's like somebody comes in and fanatically ranks him top-20 all time or top-5 SG all time.... thread turns into why he isn't top-20 all time or top-5.

The actual question of "Where does Manu Ginobili rank all time" .... get's lost.

I can understand shooting down lame comparisons (Manu to, say, Wade or Kobe)... but at what point do you talk about who Ginobili is better than?

People who overrate him cause him to be underrated IMO... at least on this board... which is a small fraction of all fans... even smaller representative of the Spurs fan base... and even smaller representative of Ginobili fans.

[L.Kizzle]

Manu is a great player, but I've seen some names he shouldn't be over.

Ray Allen, McGrady, Joe Dumars (and I'm not even huge on JD), Vince Carter, Sam Jones, ect.

Manu and Ray Ray, VC and Mac play in the same era, and we all know who was/is the better player. Unless I missed something the past decade, please let me know?

Joe Dumars, is actually a good comparison. JD is slightly better.

Someone compared Sam Jones to Manu, I see them totally different. Jones usually led his team in scoring and was the undisputed 2nd best player on that team for a good 5 year stretch from 62 to 66 (better than Hondo, a top 20 player all-time.)


Another thing is accolades, he doesn't have many at all. 2 All-Star games, that's Terry Porter territory.


And last but not least, the number one reason he can't rank as high as these others ... HE'S A FREAKIN' 6TH MAN. I don't care how good you are, if you are that great, you get out of your 6th man role. Kevin McHale, Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, ect (Sam Jones, who I just spoke about) were known as 6th men, but they didn't keep that role forever. Coach didn't say "you are real good, but I think I wanna keep you on the bench." Nope, he put their ass in the starting line-up. So all in all, a glorified 6th man, is not over any of these guys. I guarantee you James Harden won't be a 6th man in 2 seasons.

[SCdac]

And last but not least, the number one reason he can't rank as high as these others ... HE'S A FREAKIN' 6TH MAN.

How does a 6th man start 400+ games, including starting in the WCF/Finals, and all season long in 2005?

How did a "6th man" start 79 games for the Spurs last season?

400+ starts... is about twice as long as James Harden's career.

I'm not saying Manu didn't thrive as a 6th man... but clearly, he's not just a 6th man.

Manu has made two All-NBA teams as well, and gotten quiet MVP buzz before. In 2005, during Duncan's prime, he was a strong candidate for Finals MVP. That's doesn't scream "6th man".

[LBJMVP]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

the ****?.

just, the ****...


that is all i have to say to this.

[L.Kizzle]

How does a 6th man start 400+ games, including starting in the WCF/Finals, and all season long in 2005?

How did a "6th man" start 79 games for the Spurs last season?

400+ starts... is about twice as long as James Harden's career.

I'm not saying Manu didn't thrive as a 6th man... but clearly, he's not just a 6th man.

Manu has made two All-NBA teams as well, and gotten quiet MVP buzz before. In 2005, during Duncan's prime, he was a strong candidate for Finals MVP. That's doesn't scream "6th man".
Manu as only been considered a starter for 3 of his 10 seasons in the league, that is a 6th man in my books.

[Real Men Wear Green]

All-time great international player, leading his country to a gold medal is major for a non-American. Possibly the greatest foreign guard the NBA ever saw, with his primary competition being on his own team.

But as an NBA player he has no place on any all-time list that includes Americans. How can you be a top 5 guard if all you have is two All-NBA third teams? I'm not even sure among guards he'd be top 50.

[All Net]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

:wtf:

[SCdac]

Manu as only been considered a starter for 3 of his 10 seasons in the league, that is a 6th man in my books.

Outside of his rookie season, Ginobili has started in 57% of about 600 games played. That's more starts than Kevin Mchale for example (45% of 800+ games), way more than Toni Kukoc who's another great 6th Man (33% of 700+ games).

Manu embracing the "leader" role off the bench (you know, when Duncan and Parker take a seat) is a big part of the reason the Spurs have been one of the most successful teams over the last 10 years. But what does success matter, right?

But have to ask, does "starting games" really matter anyways? Ginobili has 'started' less games than players like Michael Finley and Cuttino Mobley, does that make them better all-time? How do you truly define a players worth?

[GOBB]

Manu is top 3 to some people? Definately TROLLS. Oy vey

[PHILA]

Manu Ginobli is not better than any of the following players.

MJ
Kobe
West
Iverson
Wade
Drexler
Gervin
Jones
Allen
Dumars

He's arguably not even better than Reggie or Maravich.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I've always been a huge fan of Manu, but people claiming he's one of the 20 best basketball players to ever live, and a top 5 SG ever is ridiculous.

No Greer? He is the most underrated player in league history.

[Boston C's]

Yea, not giving Allen that nod over Manu. There are players that are clearly better at the SG, if you're looking at the modern era... like MJ, Wade, and Kobe.

Iverson and McGrady were definitely better as well, but they didn't win like Manu.

Even so, I think it's fair to rank him as a top 10 SG ESPECIALLY in the clutch. He's definitely a specialist type player. He gives his team what it needs. He's not going to be able to lead a bad team with 30 ppg IMO.

But I also disqualify the non-modern era because I don't think it's a fair comparison. I'm thinking of since there were a lot of teams in the NBA, a 3 point line, etc.

Edit: Is he CLEARLY worse than Dumars? I don't think that's a fair statement. The only guys that I'd say are CLEARLY better than Manu are those that put up 30 a game and won a ring.

-Smak


1. Allen is better then manu
2. I dont care about winning Iverson and Mcgrady were better then manu

Manu has a case over mcgrady because his prime was cut short but peak mcgrady takes a huge dump on manu

give iverson or mcgrady tim duncan and filler and they win chips as well btw

[TheBigVeto]

2nd GOAT SG after Jordan. FACT.

[Clutch]

How many American greats play in the Euroleague? Hard to win there if you don't play in the second-tier league. How many American greats get to play in the Olympics? Many that have won the gold.
As for NBA title, 3rd best player on his team....most of the time. But still, a great player. I would love to have him on the Lakers, assuming he's healthy.
So he can watch Kobe chucking shot after shot ? :lol

[indiefan23]

All-time great international player, leading his country to a gold medal is major for a non-American. Possibly the greatest foreign guard the NBA ever saw, with his primary competition being on his own team.

But as an NBA player he has no place on any all-time list that includes Americans. How can you be a top 5 guard if all you have is two All-NBA third teams? I'm not even sure among guards he'd be top 50.

Cuz all nba team selections are meaningless and based on hype/reputation? Kobe just made second team all defence. I mean, come on. ;0

[indiefan23]

1. Allen is better then manu
2. I dont care about winning Iverson and Mcgrady were better then manu

Manu has a case over mcgrady because his prime was cut short but peak mcgrady takes a huge dump on manu

give iverson or mcgrady tim duncan and filler and they win chips as well btw

Yea, it's not about winning though at all. Manu is a stone cold killer who does everything well. He's not flashy and doesn't demand minutes/time. When you look at his production, it is in line with those guys which means when he's on the floor (which tends to be a higher percentage of massive moments since he mostly closes tough games) he's producing at that level, and not rounding it out with easy plays in the first half as much as those guys. He's kind of a statistical enigma.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Cuz all nba team selections are meaningless and based on hype/reputation? Kobe just made second team all defence. I mean, come on. ;0
Bryant sometimes plays very good defense. As a Celtic fan I've seen him give Rondo problems, for example. Back to the subject though, Ginobili is a career 15ppg player. Peaked at 19.5, normally 15 or 16. He's not breaking any records, he's just a good player. All-NBA selections aren't perfect but they generally get the elite players in there, and for most of his career Ginobili has not been an elite guard. You can complain that it's because he had to play Sixth Man or whatever but peak Ray Allen (for example) isn't coming off the bench for the Spurs at all. Is there any real argument why he should be put on par with a guy like Allen, who is definitely not a top 3 all-time shooting guard?

[indiefan23]

Bryant sometimes plays very good defense. As a Celtic fan I've seen him give Rondo problems, for example.

Yea, but he's not all NBA defence. Shumpert has a much better case then him to be on it and Iggy is obvious. However...


Back to the subject though, Ginobili is a career 15ppg player. Peaked at 19.5, normally 15 or 16. He's not breaking any records, he's just a good player.

That's the whole point of the article. Manu doesn't play lots of minutes, but it's an asset to his game, not a detracting factor. We've really become way to obsessed with PPG. It really makes little sense to doc Manu for something that ads to the team and his production is right there with countless all time NBA players. And that's just stats. Manu's intangibles are completely off the charts. The only player I can think of who beats you with craftiness, and who pulls perfect plays out of his ass from nothing the same way is Larry Bird. Think about all the things you've seen Manu do at the ends of games. That's not a side note it's a very significant thing that I really don't thing an extra few ppg on a couple seasons makes up for.


All-NBA selections aren't perfect but they generally get the elite players in there, and for most of his career Ginobili has not been an elite guard. You can complain that it's because he had to play Sixth Man or whatever but peak Ray Allen (for example) isn't coming off the bench for the Spurs at all. Is there any real argument why he should be put on par with a guy like Allen, who is definitely not a top 3 all-time shooting guard?

It's cuz Manu doesn't care about stats. Ray Allen also played that whole career mostly losing in Seattle and managing to be competitive within the uncompetitive east. Manu's choice to form the best team he possibly could is not an indicator of his quality of player. Jesus did the exact same thing and sacrificed his own stats to win in Boston and I respect him for it. Again, more does not always mean better. Manu chose winning over stardom and there's really no reason to think he's not going to put up lots of stats on a team where he's the man. I mean holy hell, if Tyreake Evans can do it...

Stardom will get you all NBA selections but it does not measure quality.

[Odinn]

The greatest guards of all-time;

(no order)
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Walt Frazier
Ray Allen
Gary Payton
Pete Maravich
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Allen Iverson
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Tiny Archibald
Hal Greer
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Joe Dumars
Sam Jones
Tim Hardaway
Earl Monroe
Dave Bing
Hal Greer
Gail Goodrich
Chauncey Billups
Maurice Cheeks
Mitch Richmond
David Thompson
Sidney Moncrief
Mark Price
Jo Jo White
Dennis Johnson
Michael Finley
Latrell Sprewell
Sam Cassell
Allan Houston
Richard Hamilton
Dale Ellis
Terry Porter

There are 45 names. I might be exaggerating some of them and forgetting some names. That means Manu Ginobili is arguably one of the 50 guards ever in the NBA.

[Kblaze8855]

The only player I can think of who beats you with craftiness, and who pulls perfect plays out of his ass from nothing the same way is Larry Bird.


So what was Steve Nash beating people with? Say...the 05 Mavs when hes dropping 40 and 30 some point triple doubles on crazy floaters, step throughs, fadeaways, 30 footers, sweeping hooks and so on while also making every pass in the book.


Was that not crafty?

Or kidds 18 years of doing things like pretty much drawing charges on coaches to get technical foul FTs for them being too far on the court or tapping touch pass alley oops and full court bowling ball passes through traffic.

Need the crafy Magic/Isiah/Stockton things pointed out? Or dennis Johnsons brilliance like throwing the ball off the backboard to his bigmen being fronted in the post?

Not crafty either? Or are you just pretending they and others dont exist?

[Pointguard]

Manu Ginobli is not better than any of the following players.

MJ
Kobe
West
Iverson
Wade
Drexler
Gervin
Jones
Allen
Dumars

He's arguably not even better than Reggie or Maravich.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist. I've always been a huge fan of Manu, but people claiming he's one of the 20 best basketball players to ever live, and a top 5 SG ever is ridiculous.
This.

And as Phila said Hal Greer has to be added on there as well.

The strongest arguments against Gin is that he's been the third best player on his team at least 7 of his 10 years. Fourth or Fifth best player in two of those years. He was never the best player on his team and can only arguably be considered the second best player in two years. Two all star teams and a couple of third team all america selections... that's it. He had one year where he was a real scorer. Do you really think Manu was ever ready to secure the spot as second best player on his team? And Parker was rarely a top 5 PG. Neither had numerous years at being a stellar number 2 guy on their team either.

You can't just not have outstanding features and be considered top twenty all time. He can't be considered the third best SG or better than Wade when he really wasn't really ever close to Wade in any year in any way. He was never categorically a comparison to Wade in any way: certainly not a better passer, scorer, driver, defender or penetrator than Wade. He never carried a team. In fact, he never had a great year from beginning to end. Was he ever really top two at his position during his time? When Wade was definitely number one a few times.

Did Gin really ever have the responsibility of his team on his back. I Never heard at any time that teams were ready and willing to make a big trade for Manu. Was he ever discusssed as a franchise player like Carter was? Gin never averaged 32 mpg in a season so carrying a team seems impossible. The criteria for Manu is totally based on his teams accomplishments and the positives in his limited role. Gin never seemed to be a player that could get you 20ppg in 35mpg. He was indeed a winner and big play maker but he kind of lacks in the full time status category. I think Pop noticed that he tailed off when a lot was put on him and got the max out of him in short samples per game.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That's the whole point of the article. Manu doesn't play lots of minutes, but it's an asset to his game, not a detracting factor. We've really become way to obsessed with PPG. It really makes little sense to doc Manu for something that ads to the team and his production is right there with countless all time NBA players. And that's just stats. Manu's intangibles are completely off the charts. The only player I can think of who beats you with craftiness, and who pulls perfect plays out of his ass from nothing the same way is Larry Bird. Think about all the things you've seen Manu do at the ends of games. That's not a side note it's a very significant thing that I really don't thing an extra few ppg on a couple seasons makes up for.In spite of all this intangible greatness his coach has decided that for large of the game the team is better off playing some guy like Bruce Bowen. He and bird are not the only two creative players in NBA history, he is in fact right now going up against a guy that could end up being the exact same type of player he's been (Harden). If SA had been given TMac instead he'd have been playing 40 mpg and averaging 24+ through the Championship years.

Ginobili's numbers are up there with...Joe Dumars. That does not put you on the top 5 all-time list.


It's cuz Manu doesn't care about stats. Ray Allen also played that whole career mostly losing in Seattle and managing to be competitive within the uncompetitive east. Manu's choice to form the best team he possibly could is not an indicator of his quality of player. Jesus did the exact same thing and sacrificed his own stats to win in Boston and I respect him for it. Again, more does not always mean better. Manu chose winning over stardom and there's really no reason to think he's not going to put up lots of stats on a team where he's the man. I mean holy hell, if Tyreake Evans can do it..."Chose winning?" He was drafted by San Antonio and had to either go there or not go to the NBA. At best he was the second-best player on his team and for much of his career may only have been third. There are a lot of shooting guards in NBA history that could have helped Duncan, Parker and Pop win Championships. That's a great situation and let's face it, without those rings he never won Finals MVP en route too this already-ridiculous argument would not be happening.


Stardom will get you all NBA selections but it does not measure quality.
There's just no argument for calling Manu one of the greatest SGs of all time here. If you don't have the stats and all you can say is, "he's got intangibles" then your argument is intangible.

[G.O.A.T]

If basketball stopped being played today...

Top 125 all-time, top 50 guard all-time.

22nd best SG of all-time.

Comparable players include: Chet Walker, Jack Sikma, Gus Williams, Bobby Wanzer, Paul Seymour, Tom Gola, Vern Mikkelsen, Max Zaslofsky, Chauncey Billups and Gus Johnson.

[Pointguard]

In spite of all this intangible greatness his coach has decided that for large of the game the team is better off playing some guy like Bruce Bowen. He and bird are not the only two creative players in NBA history, he is in fact right now going up against a guy that could end up being the exact same type of player he's been (Harden). If SA had been given TMac instead he'd have been playing 40 mpg and averaging 24+ through the Championship years.
Yeah, Harden seems to be a lot like Gin but plays a bit more and will produce more despite his team needing less from him. But I don't see a big difference in Gin and Harden at all. Harden has a bigger role on his team because he has more wild cards and superstars on his team so he has to balance more on his plate.

Crafty players are Stocton, Kidd, Nash, CP3 and Rondo those guys are crafty all the time but folks have just gotten used to it.

[Pointguard]

If basketball stopped being played today...

Top 125 all-time, top 50 guard all-time.

22nd best SG of all-time.

Comparable players include: Chet Walker, Jack Sikma, Gus Williams, Bobby Wanzer, Paul Seymour, Tom Gola, Vern Mikkelsen, Max Zaslofsky, Chauncey Billups and Gus Johnson.
Wow, where have you been? You are definitely the man for this question. Welcome back.

[Killbot]

It's cuz Manu doesn't care about stats. Ray Allen also played that whole career mostly losing in Seattle and managing to be competitive within the uncompetitive east. Manu's choice to form the best team he possibly could is not an indicator of his quality of player. Jesus did the exact same thing and sacrificed his own stats to win in Boston and I respect him for it. Again, more does not always mean better. Manu chose winning over stardom and there's really no reason to think he's not going to put up lots of stats on a team where he's the man. I mean holy hell, if Tyreake Evans can do it...

Stardom will get you all NBA selections but it does not measure quality.

Look at the players Ray played with in Seattle. Don't give me that crap. Ginobili had Duncan. What does Allen have? Scrub 7'0 centers and Rashard Lewis, who has problems becoming a starter currently, as his big men. He has to put up the stats because otherwise the Sonics would get blown out each and every game like the Charlotte Bobcats.

[WillyJakk]

If basketball stopped being played today...

Top 125 all-time, top 50 guard all-time.

22nd best SG of all-time.

Comparable players include: Chet Walker, Jack Sikma, Gus Williams, Bobby Wanzer, Paul Seymour, Tom Gola, Vern Mikkelsen, Max Zaslofsky, Chauncey Billups and Gus Johnson.

:rolleyes:

Another guy just shootin' off names just for the helluvit.

Please continue, let's add more names of nostalgic players (sans Billups) who clearly don't have the resume Manu has, just for the sake of showing you can name drop old schoolers.

*Eats popcorn, waits for someone to mention KC Jones, Mo Cheeks, and Andrew Toney ahead of Manu*

[G.O.A.T]

:rolleyes:

Another guy just shootin' off names just for the helluvit.

Please continue, let's add more names of nostalgic players (sans Billups) who clearly don't have the resume Manu has, just for the sake of showing you can name drop old schoolers.

Those guys all had very similar careers to Ginobili. All were very good but not great players capable of being great in a big moment or big game.

All of them made between 1 and 4 all-NBA teams except Sikma and Walker who were each 7-time all-stars (the most of the group)

They all won titles as their teams second to fourth best player and all had big moments in the finals. (except Gus) Additionally they all spent the majority of their careers playing one winning/contending teams.

None of them ever finished higher than 5th in the MVP voting and only Zaslofsky made more than one all-NBA 1st team and that was in the pre-shot clock era.

Perhaps the greatest common bond though is in the unique versatility many of these players had. The originality and unpredictability of Ginobili's game is evident. Consider that Gola was the premier defensive wing player of his era and one of the first triple-double threats. Wanzer was one of the more creative ball handlers of his era and a guy who would have lead the league in steals if they kept the stat. Sikma was a jump shooting big man who finished in the top 10 in rebounding every year and with superb passing skills. Gus Johnson was the most athletic high flying power forward of his day. Zaslofsky and ambidextrous assassin who played in the NBA finals nearly every season over a decade with three different teams.

Every player in the group has made more all-star teams than Ginobili's two, all buy Walker and Mikkelsen finished higher in the MVP voting than Ginobili's best finish, 8th in 2011. Their numbers for their respective primes, peaks and playoff averages are all very comparable.

These are players I classify as "Momentarily Elite Championship Pieces"

I'd say that describes Manu (and these other guys) pretty well.

[kumquat]

Manu>any old school player you've named. Weak era.:oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

Manu>any old school player you've named. Weak era.:oldlol:

The era isn't as weak as that argument. Players can only be judged by the standards that existed when they played. Anything else renders all evaluations of current or recent players useless. Eventually this too, will be a weak era.

[WillyJakk]

Those guys all had very similar careers to Ginobili. All were very good but not great players capable of being great in a big moment or big game.

All of them made between 1 and 4 all-NBA teams except Sikma and Walker who were each 7-time all-stars (the most of the group)

They all won titles as their teams second to fourth best player and all had big moments in the finals. (except Gus) Additionally they all spent the majority of their careers playing one winning/contending teams.

None of them ever finished higher than 5th in the MVP voting and only Zaslofsky made more than one all-NBA 1st team and that was in the pre-shot clock era.

Perhaps the greatest common bond though is in the unique versatility many of these players had. The originality and unpredictability of Ginobili's game is evident. Consider that Gola was the premier defensive wing player of his era and one of the first triple-double threats. Wanzer was one of the more creative ball handlers of his era and a guy who would have lead the league in steals if they kept the stat. Sikma was a jump shooting big man who finished in the top 10 in rebounding every year and with superb passing skills. Gus Johnson was the most athletic high flying power forward of his day. Zaslofsky and ambidextrous assassin who played in the NBA finals nearly every season over a decade with three different teams.

Every player in the group has made more all-star teams than Ginobili's two, all buy Walker and Mikkelsen finished higher in the MVP voting than Ginobili's best finish, 8th in 2011. Their numbers for their respective primes, peaks and playoff averages are all very comparable.

These are players I classify as "Momentarily Elite Championship Pieces"

I'd say that describes Manu (and these other guys) pretty well.

You know what G.O.A.T, I respect what you had to post and say about these guys and even though we definitely don't see eye to eye on where Manu stands, at least you didn't come in here assassinating his accomplishments and downplaying his career to prop up the guys you feel he's equal (at best) to.

I don't think the All Star appearances is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things either.

[SCdac]

Yeah, Harden seems to be a lot like Gin but plays a bit more and will produce more despite his team needing less from him. But I don't see a big difference in Gin and Harden at all. Harden has a bigger role on his team because he has more wild cards and superstars on his team so he has to balance more on his plate.

:oldlol:

With all respect to Harden, in Ginobili's third year in the league he was better than Harden AND had a bigger role (Manu made the AS game, became a champion, almost Finals MVP, and Parker was worse than current Westbrook).

- Ginobili was the Spurs second leading scorer come the playoffs
- Ginobili tied Tim Duncan for most FT's made in the entire playoffs
- Ginobili almost tied Parker in total assists (97 to Parker's 100)

Keep in mind the Thunder score 102 ppg in the playoffs, and the Spurs scored 97 ppg.

There's no way you can say Harden currently has bigger role than Ginobili at the same point in his career (and in his prime). Considering Parker was a 17 ppg/4 apg kind of player in the playoffs, Ginobili was more Pierce-to-Garnett than anything.

Regular season:

Manu - 29.9 mpg (74 starts), 16.0 ppg (47.1 FG%), 3.9 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.6 spg, 80.3 FT%, 1.3 three's a game @ 37.6%, 24.3 Usage-%

Harden - 31.4 mpg (2 starts), 16.8 ppg (49.1 FG%), 3.7 apg, 4.1 rpg, 1.0 spg, 84.6 FT%, 1.8 three's a game @ 39.0% three point, 21.6 Usage-%

Playoffs:

Manu - 33.6 mpg (15 starts), 20.8 ppg (50.7 FG%), 4.2 apg, 5.8 rpg, 1.2 spg, 79.5 FT%, 1.8 three's a game @ 43.8%, 26.3 Usage-%

Harden - 30.5 mpg (0 starts), 17.5 ppg (44.5 FG%), 3.3 apg, 5.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, 87.8 FT%, 1.4 three's a game @ 39.6%, 25.3 Usage-%

[G.O.A.T]

You know what G.O.A.T, I respect what you had to post and say about these guys and even though we definitely don't see eye to eye on where Manu stands, at least you didn't come in here assassinating his accomplishments and downplaying his career to prop up the guys you feel he's equal (at best) to.

I don't think the All Star appearances is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things either.

I don't think the all-star appearances are that big a deal either, but its one thing you have to look at when talking resumes. My greater point, which you seem to have got, is that in terms of resumes, all these guys are comparable.

[SCdac]

Gin never seemed to be a player that could get you 20ppg in 35mpg.

Is 19.5 ppg in 31.1 mpg really that far off?

on a slow paced team none the less (95 ppg), sharing the ball with Duncan and Parker.

Is it that unrealistic to put prime Manu in place of, say, Kevin Martin on the current rockets and see him put up 20 ppg?

With teammates of Scola, Lee, Lowry, Dalembert, etc.... Prime Manu would undoubtedly be the best on the team.

I'm not assuming he could take that team to the Finals, but I am assuming he would put up bigger stats on said team than teamed with the GOAT PF and Parker.

[WillyJakk]

I don't think the all-star appearances are that big a deal either, but its one thing you have to look at when talking resumes. My greater point, which you seem to have got, is that in terms of resumes, all these guys are comparable.

My point which I made in a similar thread to this was how Manu has 3 rings in which he was arguably the Finals MVP and also a major factor in not only the other 2 Finals but the games leading up to them also.

Now, the smaller point you made was how All Star appearances should be taken into consideration when looking at the players you feel were comparable to Manu, I feel strongly that the 3 rings, Olympic Gold, and EuroLeague Title Manu has bolsters his argument (well at least mine) when comparing him to upper echelon guys like Wade, Drexler, and West.

And I definitely feel his clutch play is unparalleled and it takes All Time Greats, the likes of Jordan, Magic, West, Kobe, and Bird to even be compared to the guy w/ the exception of Billups having a case (amongst the players you listed).

I see him as better than Drexler etc especially in the clutch but some people take offense to that's as if it's a slight against Clyde.

[bizil]

I think Manu might have a case as a top 20 GOAT SG of all time. GOAT includes talent, solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, and longevity being great. In the all around sense, Ginobli is better than many SG's all already in the HOF. He's one of the premier sixth men of all time as well (which might hurt his standing in some people's eyes) He has three rings as well in which he was a key cog. He's been an all star only two times, but he also played in a golden era of SG's where u might have just two SG's selected per team. Manu also has two all NBA teams as well.

But in terms of individual accolades and numbers, u have so many SG's who have the edge on Manu. If u were judging Manu only on his NBA career, he wouldn't be in the HOF. But he's getting in the HOF due to his combined impact on the L and internationally. If u are a future HOFer, there is no higher honor.

[Kblaze8855]

With all respect to Harden, in Ginobili's third year in the league he was better than Harden AND had a bigger role

Manu was older than Lebron is now in his 3rd season.

In 3 years...harden will be the age Manu was as a rookie.

Manu was a 9 or 10 year pro ball player in 2005.

And he was roughly what Harden is now.

Which is...impressive. But hardly worthy of rolling emoticons and acting like they are equally far along in their careers in their 3rd seasons. Im not sure Manu wasnt eligible to be taken in Grant Hill and Jason Kidds draft class....if not...im sure he was in the Mcdyess/Stackhouse/KG class.

[SCdac]

Manu was older than Lebron is now in his 3rd season.

In 3 years...harden will be the age Manu was as a rookie.

Manu was a 9 or 10 year pro ball player in 2005.

And he was roughly what Harden is now... only better

Which is...impressive. But hardly worthy of rolling emoticons and acting like they are equally far along in their careers in their 3rd seasons. Im not sure Manu wasnt eligible to be taken in Grant Hill and Jason Kidds draft class....if not...im sure he was in the Mcdyess/Stackhouse/KG class.

fixed.

Point is, Ginobili in his prime was a legit #2 option, who probably could have been an ok #1 option on his own. He often times took the reigns in SA during the 4-5 years of his prime.

The guy said Harden produced more and had a bigger role... which isn't really true if we're comparing them at equal points in their NBA careers. Westbrook is better than Parker was back then, so Manu had to shoulder more of a load and started every game he played (Harden doesn't). He was the Spurs second leading scorer (Harden isn't). He was the go-to guy outside of Duncan (Harden isn't, outside of Durant).

Harden was a lottery pick, who went to a couple years of college. I think after three season you're pretty much broken in. It's not that crazy to compare one 3rd year player to another. If that isn't a fair or equal comparison, how is comparing a current Harden to a 34 year old Ginobili fair or equal? Clearly Manu is not in his athletic prime anymore, but who is at 34?

People have postulated in other threads "What would Harden do with his own team?", I don't think that's crazy, nor do I think asking the same question about prime Manu is crazy or unrealistic. Seems to be some kind of double standard. I don't know if it's nationality related or what. It's not like Harden plays more than prime Manu, or shoulders some incredible load.

edit: also, I saw you post about Stannis the other day... I'm curious, did you watch the season finale? pretty awesome end to the season if you ask me. Stannis got played... or did he?

[L.Kizzle]

It's cuz Manu doesn't care about stats. Ray Allen also played that whole career mostly losing in Seattle and managing to be competitive within the uncompetitive east. Manu's choice to form the best team he possibly could is not an indicator of his quality of player. Jesus did the exact same thing and sacrificed his own stats to win in Boston and I respect him for it. Again, more does not always mean better. Manu chose winning over stardom and there's really no reason to think he's not going to put up lots of stats on a team where he's the man. I mean holy hell, if Tyreake Evans can do it...

Stardom will get you all NBA selections but it does not measure quality.
Be real with yourself, Ray Allen has been an All-Star more times as a Celtic than Manu has his entire career.

[Kblaze8855]

Stannis went from godly in the last episode to looking broken in the finale. Im tired of the red witch lady with him as well.

[SCdac]

Yeah, probably one of the biggest defeats I've seen on TV lately. Tyrion too for that matter, talk about role reversal. A scar like that would either turn me into a complete hermit for life or the opposite, a complete badass.

[WillyJakk]

Oh yeah, my final point is how efficient Manu is.

Dude has 25pts (so far) on 11 shots and he does this routinely.

You'll be hard pressed to find a SG that is that efficient except the upper tier All Time Greats, and even then it's tough.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes had 25 points on under 15 shots 4 times in the last 3 years counting tonight. 4 times in 3 years is not routine. Its....sometimes.

Which is about all you can ask.

Nobody does things like this on a regular basis(though Harden has scored at least 25 on under 15 shots 3 times this season alone not counting 33 on 16 and 40 on 17 games).

[L.Kizzle]

Oh yeah, my final point is how efficient Manu is.

Dude has 25pts (so far) on 11 shots and he does this routinely.

You'll be hard pressed to find a SG that is that efficient except the upper tier All Time Greats, and even then it's tough.
He's more efficient than Iverson ... so does that make him better?

[indiefan23]

So what was Steve Nash beating people with? Say...the 05 Mavs when hes dropping 40 and 30 some point triple doubles on crazy floaters, step throughs, fadeaways, 30 footers, sweeping hooks and so on while also making every pass in the book.

Was that not crafty?

Nash has some of it for sure, and I'm a huge fan, but I don't think he's got those intangibles the same way as Manu does. Nash's game is more reliant on pure skill and repeated good habits.


Or kidds 18 years of doing things like pretty much drawing charges on coaches to get technical foul FTs for them being too far on the court or tapping touch pass alley oops and full court bowling ball passes through traffic.

If they do it vs NBA defences I'll say the same things about them. No problem.


Need the crafy Magic/Isiah/Stockton things pointed out? Or dennis Johnsons brilliance like throwing the ball off the backboard to his bigmen being fronted in the post?

Not crafty either? Or are you just pretending they and others dont exist?

Ah, I don't think I ever said there were only two crafty players in NBA history. Just cuz I think Manu has more of it then they do doesn't mean no one else can also be good. That, and Isiah's game again relied on ridiculous speed combined with ridiculous skill. He was very slick as well, no denying that.

I'm not sure why you seem to have taken it personally that I think Manu is an all time guy who out thinks his competition better then most anyone.

[Pointguard]

fixed.

Point is, Ginobili in his prime was a legit #2 option, who probably could have been an ok #1 option on his own. He often times took the reigns in SA during the 4-5 years of his prime.

The guy said Harden produced more and had a bigger role... which isn't really true if we're comparing them at equal points in their NBA careers. Westbrook is better than Parker was back then, so Manu had to shoulder more of a load and started every game he played (Harden doesn't). He was the Spurs second leading scorer (Harden isn't). He was the go-to guy outside of Duncan (Harden isn't, outside of Durant).

I did not say that. I said he will likely produce more and has a very big role already. Westbrook is highly inconsistent and turnover prone. Harden is the guy that controls a younger team with big egos and has to step up when Westbrook gets out of control and when Durant can't figure it out. Harden is pretty much in the same role that Manu was, except his players aren't in a very structured system.


Harden was a lottery pick, who went to a couple years of college. I think after three season you're pretty much broken in. It's not that crazy to compare one 3rd year player to another. If that isn't a fair or equal comparison, how is comparing a current Harden to a 34 year old Ginobili fair or equal? Clearly Manu is not in his athletic prime anymore, but who is at 34?

If you played for nine years professionally in several different championship situations you don't compare that to three years without being in any championship situation. At 27 you are in your prime, you know who you are and what your limitations are, you know the game a lot better. At 22 you are growing into your body, you don't know situations like a ten year vet that has big time Olympic experience, international championships and world championships. They call it your prime for a reason.



People have postulated in other threads "What would Harden do with his own team?", I don't think that's crazy, nor do I think asking the same question about prime Manu is crazy or unrealistic. Seems to be some kind of double standard. I don't know if it's nationality related or what. It's not like Harden plays more than prime Manu, or shoulders some incredible load.

You already hear "do you keep Harden or Iblocka," cause they can't have four max contracts. In this series who is obviously the second best player on the OKC? Who controls the game and makes the big plays outside of Durant? Who does OKC turn to when Durant is denied the ball? Who do you trust with the ball? I never heard of teams approaching Manu with a max contract. Did you? So are you saying the owners were playing a nationality game? I'm sorry buddy but they never referred to Duncan/Parker/Gin as the big three after three championships and Harden is already getting that respect.

[indiefan23]

Hes had 25 points on under 15 shots 4 times in the last 3 years counting tonight. 4 times in 3 years is not routine. Its....sometimes.

Which is about all you can ask.

Nobody does things like this on a regular basis(though Harden has scored at least 25 on under 15 shots 3 times this season alone not counting 33 on 16 and 40 on 17 games).

Yea, but again, that's the point of the article. You're using per game stats which are per minute stats. It doesn't really matter if Harden has scored more points. When the ball is in Manu's hands he produces at a very, very elite level. Manu was 8'th in PER this season. Slam PER all you want that's significant. Harden himself has fallen prey to the same /game ranking bias that has under rated him this season (even though he's getting lots of cred).

When talking about those two guys I think it's misleading to refer to them as the best 6'th men in the league cuz it does imply they aren't starter quality players and it's just not the case at all. Both Manu/Harden are elite NBA players and two of the very best 2 guards/guards in the league (depending on what you call Harden). For them there's really no need to demote it to being 6'th men. They play at the ends of games with the starters and their team's go to both of them when they're in their deepest trouble.

[indiefan23]

fixed.

Point is, Ginobili in his prime was a legit #2 option, who probably could have been an ok #1 option on his own. He often times took the reigns in SA during the 4-5 years of his prime.

The guy said Harden produced more and had a bigger role... which isn't really true if we're comparing them at equal points in their NBA careers.

It's not really true if we compare them right now. ;0 Manu spent a chunk of the season injured and playing hurt. When he came back he put up pretty much the same numbers as Harden did, who put up pretty much the same numbers Manu put up last year. Measuring 6'th men with /game numbers is pretty silly since 6'th men are going to have yo yo minutes depending on the game. /36 minutes Harden puts up 17/4/3.7 and Manu puts up 20/5.3/6.9.

Manu's minutes on that Spurs team are directly connected to the team's make up and their strategy to win games, not the quality of a player that Manu is. Watching them play it's pretty much obvious. The Spurs have 11 guys who play minutes and they run teams into the ground. Only two guys play more then 25 minutes. Duncan (28 MPG) and Parker (32 MPG, the only guy playing more then 30 MPG). Any comparisons of Manu's per game numbers is just inherently invalid.

[indiefan23]

Be real with yourself, Ray Allen has been an All-Star more times as a Celtic than Manu has his entire career.

I'm being totally real. Ray Allen hit lots of shots in the ASG and Manu hit lots of shots in the NBA finals which he's been to as a major player on the team 3 times. When Manu has been on the floor his PER of 19 just pales in comparison to Manu's near 22. Even if you take only his days in Seattle it's only 20. That's significant. And what's extra significant is that he did that playing many years coming off the bench and as the third option. When Ray Allen had that role his PER is a merely above average 16 and he didn't also spend years playing hurt to drag it down further.

Now, I'm not coming out all strong saying he obviously is better then Ray Allen and I fully give props to Jesus, but in response to the arguments like you've just made it's really not something you can just brush off. Manu has a case. Ray did pad his stats as the best player on mediocre teams. Manu's numbers got hurt being a hugely important, but not most important piece on the greatest team of the last decade. It's not something you can brush away without being bias.

[Kblaze8855]

Nash has some of it for sure, and I'm a huge fan, but I don't think he's got those intangibles the same way as Manu does. Nash's game is more reliant on pure skill and repeated good habits.



That, and Isiah's game again relied on ridiculous speed combined with ridiculous skill. He was very slick as well, no denying that.


So Manu isnt manu because of his insane agility, body control, balance, and skills?

Manu isnt...smarting 20 foot off balance fadeaways into the basket. Hes not...crafting...40 foot touch pass bullets.


I might go as far as calling it an insult to Manu to suggest that his game doesnt rely on his athletic ability and amazing skill. Something bordering on racism. Dont think im calling you racist...ill try to explain here...

A guy like MAnu may not jump the highest or run the fastest but he has body control and agility right on par with a guy like Vince Carter to me. He is flexible as hell, explodes past people off balance, and the speed of his movements in the air...top notch. But because hes white(ish...) hes grouped with crafty guys and not just...great ones. And Manu is so skilled it borders on gushing to describe it properly.

This feels almost like what Ray Allen was talking about when he said people talk about how naturl and beautiful his jumper is and he says nothing is natural about it...hes taken 3-4 million jumpers in 20 years to make it what it is.

Manu I have no doubt works his ass off to get the skills he has. Hes not just making shit up on the fly and outsmarting people. Hes applying his skills and athletic ability. Manu has elite skills for a swingman even if he isnt an elite player.

I think thats downplayed a bit when we say such and such relied on skill while he needs smarts or something. Non black players with skills are so often called crafty and smart and so on instead of just...great athletes.

Manu is as skilled as almost anyone and athletic as hell. He just doesnt jump that high.

A black Manu I think is probably called less crafty and more....talented. Which annoys me a bit because Manus talent stands tall next to a lot of all time greats.



If they do it vs NBA defences I'll say the same things about them. No problem.

Who did you think I was saying they did it against?




Ah, I don't think I ever said there were only two crafty players in NBA history. Just cuz I think Manu has more of it then they do doesn't mean no one else can also be good.I'm not sure why you seem to have taken it personally that I think Manu is an all time guy who out thinks his competition better then most anyone.


Im gonna explain....

When you say something like this:



The only player I can think of who beats you with craftiness, and who pulls perfect plays out of his ass from nothing the same way is Larry Bird.

It means you either think he does it at a rate beyond the Magics, Isiahs, nashs, Kidds, Jordans, and John Stocktons....or you say it without considering such players at all.


And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup. Im talking the crafty moves he needed to get his shot off in his Clipper/Boston/Minnesota days when he was old and got no lift.


Im thinking of these brilliant players ive seen in my life and then manu...

And im asking myself...what you could have possibly seen to justify the claim that Manu "beats you with craftiness" at a rate beyond John Stockton. Or Mark Jackson. Or second 3peat Jordan. Or Dennis Johnson.


What could it possiby be...beyond you just....feeeeeeeling like its true?
Its how you...feel. I want to know...what you can site to justify it. I think what it is is yet another case of thoughtless hyperbole which in this case....feels disrespectful to a lot of greats of the past and the present.

Because either you thought it out and decided hes beyond them on this issue...or you made an absurd statement without even considering the players in question. Either way...I find it a bit dismissive of too many players to name and the latest example of a recent trend of straight up pretending that a lot of people who did a lot for this game didnt exist or didnt live up to a standard set by a current guy someone wants to hype up.


It just bugs me a bit. Doesnt mean I think you are an idiot...I think...you didnt think out what you said. But that bugs me a bit too.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea, but again, that's the point of the article. You're using per game stats which are per minute stats. It doesn't really matter if Harden has scored more points. When the ball is in Manu's hands he produces at a very, very elite level. Manu was 8'th in PER this season. Slam PER all you want that's significant. Harden himself has fallen prey to the same /game ranking bias that has under rated him this season (even though he's getting lots of cred).



Ignoring for a moment that what im looking at says that 5-10 in PER was Love, Dwight, Blake, Rose, Westbrook, and Bynum...

Even if Manu is 8th...I care exactly as much as I do about Bird being outside the top 10 and behind Dan Roundfield and Dan Issel when he was leading his team to a title that same year. Or Kiki Vandeweghe being ahead of Magic putting up 18/13/7 and 2 steals on 57% shooting on a contender. Its just...trivia to me.

[blablabla]

top 15 sg arguably top10

[SCdac]

If you played for nine years professionally in several different championship situations you don't compare that to three years without being in any championship situation. At 27 you are in your prime, you know who you are and what your limitations are, you know the game a lot better. At 22 you are growing into your body, you don't know situations like a ten year vet that has big time Olympic experience, international championships and world championships. They call it your prime for a reason.

It's surprising that when Manu is getting compared to some lottery pick that hasn't hit his peak yet (Harden is in his athletic prime), his international experience suddenly becomes paramount and a huge advantage (even though NBA and Euroleague are much different, and Manu would be the first to tell you (check youtube interviews), his rookie year was a tough transition). Yet, when you bring up the fact that he won MVP's and lead championship teams, it's like considered sacrilegious on this board to compare that to anything NBA related. Come on, it's not like Harden picked up a basketball the day after he was drafted. Probably been a part of competitive basketball since HS, and he averaged 20 ppg his final year in college. We're not talking about a project player, ala Hasheem Thabeet, etc. At 22, you're a man, not a boy.

[Odinn]

top 15 sg arguably top10
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Clyde Drexler
Ray Allen
Pete Maravich
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Hal Greer
Joe Dumars
Sam Jones
Earl Monroe
Gail Goodrich
Mitch Richmond
David Thompson
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Finley
Latrell Sprewell
Vince Carter
Allan Houston

Barely top 20.

[CLTHornets4eva]

:D Slightly above Carlos Delfino and Fabricio Oberto as best Argentinian of all time.

[Kblaze8855]

Yet, when you bring up the fact that he won MVP's and lead championship teams, it's like considered sacrilegious on this board to compare that to anything NBA related.


Because it is. Its totally irrelevant. That doesnt mean that a player who is a 10 year vet with 7 of them spent overseas has not developed his game more than a 22 year old.

But really...nothing done in europe goes on anyone elses resume. Not when the issue is greatest players. Who really credits nique as a champion because he won in europe? Who lists Bob Mcadoos euroleague MVP? Who bumps Pau up the all time 4 list because of the 06 WC? Or talks up Peja and Vladimir over 2002? Gallinari won the same MVP Manu got in europe. Anthony Parker, Trajan Langdon, and Juan Carlos Navarro won the final 4 MVP like Manu.

Who really lists any of that as proof of anything NBA related?

Doesnt mean its not pro basketball experience.

[Pointguard]

It's surprising that when Manu is getting compared to some lottery pick that hasn't hit his peak yet (Harden is in his athletic prime), his international experience suddenly becomes paramount and a huge advantage (even though NBA and Euroleague are much different, and Manu would be the first to tell you (check youtube interviews), his rookie year was a tough transition). Yet, when you bring up the fact that he won MVP's and lead championship teams, it's like considered sacrilegious on this board to compare that to anything NBA related. Come on, it's not like Harden picked up a basketball the day after he was drafted. Probably been a part of competitive basketball since HS, and he averaged 20 ppg his final year in college. We're not talking about a project player, ala Hasheem Thabeet, etc. At 22, you're a man, not a boy.
At 22 you're just finished growing. Doesn't mean you know your body, it usually takes about three more years before you know your physical extremes. Your athletic prime is 25 to about 28, your true prime about 27-29 in most cases because of the mental aspect. Please reference DH, Lebron and DWade - at 25 you usually see the hustle stats, blocks, steals and defence go up considerably at 25 because they finally know they can pace themselves to play it, the exertion across the board takes a considerable jump at 25. This is very consistent - like in the 90 plus percentile. If Harden was 25 and playing the way he is now I would not think he's a max player - but because he's 22 its a big difference.

[LockoutOver11]

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Clyde Drexler
Ray Allen
Pete Maravich
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Hal Greer
Joe Dumars
Sam Jones
Earl Monroe
Gail Goodrich
Mitch Richmond
David Thompson
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Finley
Latrell Sprewell
Vince Carter
Allan Houston

Barely top 20.


lmaoooo vince and houston hahahahahaha

[SCdac]

lmaoooo vince and houston hahahahahaha

Don't forget Finley! lol

[indiefan23]

So Manu isnt manu because of his insane agility, body control, balance, and skills?

Manu isnt...smarting 20 foot off balance fadeaways into the basket. Hes not...crafting...40 foot touch pass bullets.

I really don't get your point. Did I say he has no other abilities? I haven't said anything extreme here but you are acting like i have.


I might go as far as calling it an insult to Manu to suggest that his game doesnt rely on his athletic ability and amazing skill. Something bordering on racism. Dont think im calling you racist...ill try to explain here...

Well, you've gone too far cuz it's pretty logically a fact that I didn't say that about Manu at all. What I did say was that Nash relies more on his skill. That doesn't mean Manu is skilless. Racism? Really? I have Argentinian hatred in me? ;0


A guy like MAnu may not jump the highest or run the fastest but he has body control and agility right on par with a guy like Vince Carter to me.... But because hes white(ish...) hes grouped with crafty guys and not just...great ones. And Manu is so skilled it borders on gushing to describe it properly.

Agility on parr with Vicne Carter? Are you effing kidding? ;0 Well, it appears to me that since I never said Manu wasn't athletic, the person bordering on racism here would be yourself, Kblaze of the awesome mixes. Any time you mention someone's craftiness and they're white it means you're actually saying they lack other skills? When the foil we were using was lilly South African Canadian Vancouver Raised White Boy Steve Nash? Really?

I said Manu is crafty because he out-thinks his opposition continuously and finds continually unique ways to win games that no one has ever seen before. He always seems to be thinking a play or two ahead. When plays break down and create new situations he's able to respond using new methods that are often so, so simple, but so, so effective. A guy like Kobe will hit an impossibly difficult turn around off of 10 jab steps and shot fakes. Manu will get the ball in motion and fake out the D with 1 simple pass fake like he did around the end of game 1 for an easy lay up. It's really got nothing to do with how whiteish they are.



Manu I have no doubt works his ass off to get the skills he has. Hes not just making shit up on the fly and outsmarting people. Hes applying his skills and athletic ability. Manu has elite skills for a swingman even if he isnt an elite player.

Manu is totally elite. He does make things up on the fly and he's trained himself to do that. While Ray Allen has trained himself to have an amazingly consistent jumper he can get off at any time. You can't train to do something naturally? It seems to me Ray Ray doesn't understand that he's talking about semantics. Does he really believe that when people say that about him they mean he didn't have to practice to get there? If so, Ray Allen is a moron because it's obvious that's not what people mean.


I think thats downplayed a bit when we say such and such relied on skill while he needs smarts or something. Non black players with skills are so often called crafty and smart and so on instead of just...great athletes.

A black Manu I think is probably called less crafty and more....talented. Which annoys me a bit because Manus talent stands tall next to a lot of all time greats.

Menh dude. If Manu could jump high and was 'that' kind of athletic he probably never has to develop so many different ways to score. That's the thing. People always try to attribute things to race. Manu can even jump pretty well to be honest. But if he was Vince Carter he probably doesn't develop all the other aspects of his game like he did. This is positively the case for Larry Bird. He wasn't explosive like other elite players so he mastered the half inch and became elite that way. That's what Manu has done and there's really almost no other player like him.

My apologies if elite black are more athletic is racist, but we all know why it's the case, and yes, it's incredibly racist, but it's also a fact and why the NBA which is such an athletically oriented league is so predominantly black. I didn't make that happen but it is a reality of the NBA. That's not to say that there aren't crafty black dudes or athletic white dudes, but it makes sense that without being at a major disadvantage in one area the motivation to train another area is going to be lacking. White guys like Bird became more crafty because it's the only way they could compete with guys like Jordan who could literally jump the hell right over them. It's like a blind person who's hearing becomes more acute then the general population.

I don't know. I really call the BS of this whole argument you are making. No one has a problem acknowledging that black guys are more athletic but when you say a white guy is crafty it's suddenly got some discriminatory undertones. But white guys are generally less athletic and that's precisely why when we are talking about competitors they are better at shooting and out-smarting people: it's the only thing that works when you know you just can't compete athletically vs someone. Someone who is has that athletic advantage doesn't need to develop the same skills. It's why Shaq can't shoot. He didn't need to to win. It's not bordering on anything but common sense.


Who did you think I was saying they did it against?

Okay, you link me to a full court bowling ball pass through traffic in the NBA, by an 18 year old no less. What are you talking about? Here's the complete list of 18 year old players and they've all pretty much sucked and been totally out of their league. T-Mac got the most minutes and played a wopping 18 MPG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/TIB6m


Im gonna explain....

When you say something like this:

It means you either think he does it at a rate beyond the Magics, Isiahs, nashs, Kidds, Jordans, and John Stocktons....or you say it without considering such players at all.

Well now, which do you think is more likely?

[indiefan23]

And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup. Im talking the crafty moves he needed to get his shot off in his Clipper/Boston/Minnesota days when he was old and got no lift.

Sure, those guys are great. In my first draft my paragraph was longer but it got trimmed for space and it had Magic and Sam in it as well. I think Manu is better though, it's a personal opinion, I don't know what you want me to say. He's a more rounded player and scorer as well.


Im thinking of these brilliant players ive seen in my life and then manu...

And im asking myself...what you could have possibly seen to justify the claim that Manu "beats you with craftiness" at a rate beyond John Stockton. Or Mark Jackson. Or second 3peat Jordan. Or Dennis Johnson.

What could it possiby be...beyond you just....feeeeeeeling like its true? Its how you...feel. I want to know...what you can site to justify it. I think what it is is yet another case of thoughtless hyperbole which in this case....feels disrespectful to a lot of greats of the past and the present.


You mean beyond you just feeeeeeellllling it's false? Awesome fallacy there. There's no intangibles stat and bringing up a guy like John Stockton, who was as habitual a player as there ever was, is just foolishness. Or second three peat Jordan who just milked the same patented moves over, and over, and over, for so much of his production and still owns Manu athletically.

This is the point of my article. People are scared to say things about Manu because people come with this ignorant argumetn you're trying to push here. Oh you can't back it up, you feel it, therefore you're bias and stupid. Yes, I feel it, and yes, I watched all the same guys you did, and yea, I know hoops, and yea, it's how I feel... as if that's invalid.


Because either you thought it out and decided hes beyond them on this issue...or you made an absurd statement without even considering the players in question.

Or just an absurdly correct one that Manu is one of the most under rated players of all time and people who can't look past stats neglect to see him being an all time team's best clutch guard being in line with other team's all time clutch performers. It's cool if you disagree, but you've really stated nothing, and I mean 'nothing' but your... feelings. Funny... that.


Either way...I find it a bit dismissive of too many players to name and the latest example of a recent trend of straight up pretending that a lot of people who did a lot for this game didnt exist or didnt live up to a standard set by a current guy someone wants to hype up.

Or older players just get passed as the game evolves. Someone posted something about Sam Jones on this thread and that's just a joke. ;0 SMH. You're all about not forgetting older players but when someone new comes along who's 'obviously' better people will argue till they are blue in the face that this guy who has no left hand and can't cross over is an all time player. The hypocrisy is so rampant. People will make these extensive arguments about how you can't compare eras, and it's all about how you do vs your peers, and then claim that Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell is the GOAT center, without mentioning Mikan. I've seen a few of these lists in this thread too. Just totally inconsistent.


It just bugs me a bit. Doesnt mean I think you are an idiot...I think...you didnt think out what you said. But that bugs me a bit too.

Heh, maybe you should spent more time... thinking out... your own response... and less time... thinking about... other's thinking. It seems pretty clear you just figured I was like most of the kiddies on ISH and never really watched anything before the 00's, if any of the 90's and likely none of the 80's. I dunno if you want to continue the conversation, but try to make some arguments next time instead of talking about things I've never said or stating the obvious. Yea, I think Manu is really, really, really good. That's why I said he was an all time player. If you've got reasons he's not talk about them.

You can keep talking about how the only difference between Vince Carter and Manu is that VC can jump higher, but I'm not participating in a discussion that's that foolish.

[Kblaze8855]

There are like....6.."wow" comments in there for reasons ranging from disbelief that you could be serious to not believing how greatly you misunderstood what I was saying.

If you think me saying that I can cite specific examples of the basketball brilliance of players like Magic, Kidd, Stockton and so on means that I just "feeeeeeeeeeeel" a certian way without explanation or being able to give reasons....we might as well be speaking different languages.

I give you examples...ask what you were thinking of to justify your claims that Manu makes better heady plays...and you tell me I just feeeeeeel a certian way without evidence when im the only side of this that gave any.

Thats just...going nowhere.

I'll leave it at this...

If you think a guy is underrated when every topic on him has several people calling him better than West, Kobe, Wade, Tmac, and Drexler...

We have different understandings of the word "underrated".

[L.Kizzle]

I'm being totally real. Ray Allen hit lots of shots in the ASG and Manu hit lots of shots in the NBA finals which he's been to as a major player on the team 3 times. When Manu has been on the floor his PER of 19 just pales in comparison to Manu's near 22. Even if you take only his days in Seattle it's only 20. That's significant. And what's extra significant is that he did that playing many years coming off the bench and as the third option. When Ray Allen had that role his PER is a merely above average 16 and he didn't also spend years playing hurt to drag it down further.

Now, I'm not coming out all strong saying he obviously is better then Ray Allen and I fully give props to Jesus, but in response to the arguments like you've just made it's really not something you can just brush off. Manu has a case. Ray did pad his stats as the best player on mediocre teams. Manu's numbers got hurt being a hugely important, but not most important piece on the greatest team of the last decade. It's not something you can brush away without being bias.
There have been many players who've not been the man on their teams and still have high numbers, accolades, ect. So that's not gonna work, and how was Ray padding his stats, they needed those stats. Not like he was Cleveland Ricky Davis or something.

[GOBB]

Hes had 25 points on under 15 shots 4 times in the last 3 years counting tonight. 4 times in 3 years is not routine. Its....sometimes.

Which is about all you can ask.

Nobody does things like this on a regular basis(though Harden has scored at least 25 on under 15 shots 3 times this season alone not counting 33 on 16 and 40 on 17 games).

:oldlol: Word..."routinely"

Wade dropped 27 (20 2nd half I believe). No one cares. Manu drops 26? Thread made. Wade 7pts in first half drew laughs, he's old, done etc. Manu had 2 single digit games vs OKC and no one cares. But he's on Wade level, better than Drexler. Riiiight

[indiefan23]

:oldlol: Word..."routinely"

Wade dropped 27 (20 2nd half I believe). No one cares. Manu drops 26? Thread made. Wade 7pts in first half drew laughs, he's old, done etc. Manu had 2 single digit games vs OKC and no one cares. But he's on Wade level, better than Drexler. Riiiight

Dude makes thread claiming one thing, you start argument vs that thing * 10 factors of hyperbole. Exaggeration level: Gobb. Once a troll?

[Pointguard]

I
I said Manu is crafty because he out-thinks his opposition continuously and finds continually unique ways to win games that no one has ever seen before.

Please show me ONE move, much less continusously, that Manu ever did that no one has ever seen before?


He always seems to be thinking a play or two ahead.
I was going to say this was a typo but sometimes you get so beside yourself that you might really believe in some X-men/Avenger type stuff. Gino now thinks of plays before the one he is in finishes? If you are talking about a move before hand, which is the only way this statement can make sense, then why isn't his assist numbers up? Have you seen Chris Paul when he was in a playoff tear. Paul has guys scoring that didn't know they could score. Talent, skill, ability can have you score... craftiness and foresight, has other people scoring particurally non scorers. Manu is good at setting other people up but is far from great. And you have no other way of suggesting that he sees the play develop before it does. Magic would make Kurt Rambis a star, a twenty point scorer, on his birthday when his family came out to see him play. Kurt Rambis was devoid of offensive talent/skill/ability. Now that's crafty.

To suggest that Gin is in some way craftier or mentally adroit than Magic or Chris Paul basketball wise is straight up pure ludicris garbage. Manu never had the responsiblitily to have to figure out defenses for a full 40 minutes. Manu is very good at playing with controlled wreckless abandon at the right time. That is where his game is. He isn't somebody that should be considered a chess player on a checkers board by any means. He isn't consistent. Rarely played the average minutes of a very good player. Would be worse if he recieved the attention of a star. Never really produced like a star on any continuous basis. He had his moments but never had his years. The advantages of being the third wheel are numerous - defenses don't gear up for you, you don't get doubled, you don't carry a burden, you don't have to push the issue, etc.

[gpfanz]

Please show me ONE move, much less continusously, that Manu ever did that no one has ever seen before?

I was going to say this was a typo but sometimes you get so beside yourself that you might really believe in some X-men/Avenger type stuff. Gino now thinks of plays before the one he is in finishes? If you are talking about a move before hand, which is the only this statement can make sense, then why isn't his assist numbers up? Have you seen Chris Paul when he was in a playoff tear. Paul has guys scoring that didn't know they could score. Talent, skill, ability can have you score... craftiness and foresight, has other people scoring particurally non scorers. Manu is good at setting other people up but is far from great. And you have no other way of suggesting that he sees the play develop before it does. Magic would make Kurt Rambis a star, a twenty point scorer, on his birthday when his family came out to see him play. Kurt Rambis was devoid of offensive talent/skill/ability. Now that's crafty.

To suggest that Gin is in some way craftier or mentally adroit than Magic or Chris Paul basketball wise is straight up pure ludicris garbage. Manu never had the responsiblitily to have to figure out defenses for a full 40 minutes. Manu is very good at playing with controlled wreckless abandon at the right time. That is where his game is. He isn't somebody that should be considered a chess player on a checkers board by any means. He isn't consistent. Rarely played the average minutes of a very good player. Would be worse if he recieved the attention of a star. Never really produced like a star on any continuous basis. He had his moments but never had his years. The advantages of being the third wheel are numerous - defenses don't gear up for you, you don't get doubled, you don't carry a burden, you don't have to push the issue, etc.

U probably think Kobe/ AI > Manu zzz

[indiefan23]

Okay, so now I really do want to reply to you.


There are like....6.."wow" comments in there for reasons ranging from disbelief that you could be serious to not believing how greatly you misunderstood what I was saying.

No, I think I just flatly disagree with what you're saying. Someone thinking differently then you should not be wow, it should be, well it's sports. People disagree.


If you think me saying that I can cite specific examples of the basketball brilliance of players like Magic, Kidd, Stockton and so on means that I just "feeeeeeeeeeeel" a certian way without explanation or being able to give reasons....we might as well be speaking different languages.

No, you're just name dropping. Magic is a massive all time star. I've never said he wasn't brilliant. But the plethora of massive Ginobili moments and games don't shine less bright because he's not Magic Johnson. The Spurs just lost the WCF's with Manu pretty obviously being their best player and the guy they like to say is their MVP just not showing up. It's been this way for the past decade. TP scores lots and Manu closes teams out. Go re-watch the end of game 2 and it's beyond clear who the Spurs look to and who's team it is.

Yes, I feeeeellll it, but feelings are not invalid here. You can't measure craftiness so going on what you feel is all you've got. You criticize me for feeling it, but then you name drop Magic when all you've got to go on is feeling too. Putting up lots of per game stats is not crafty. It's just stats. Crafty is about how you get those numbers and Manu is right there in the club as one of the slickest players ever.


I give you examples...ask what you were thinking of to justify your claims that Manu makes better heady plays...and you tell me I just feeeeeeel a certian way without evidence when im the only side of this that gave any.

Thats just...going nowhere.

Well what, do you think Manu is NOT a crafty player? Do you really think that his game 1 performance was just a fluke and he has NOT been doing this for his entire career? Are you that ignorant a basketball fan? I know you're not so I really don't know what you're getting at. Manu is an AMAZING player who doesn't get all time superstar minutes but shows up in the clutch right there with them.

If player A plays 35 minutes (15 in the first half) and player B plays 20 minutes all in the second half, and they have a similar stat line for the night, which guy is better with the basketball in his hands?

You dropping guys like Magic and Kidd is merely making an invalid argument against my article KBlaze because you are using the name value of guys like Magic and their per game stats that drives their name value status against Manu's production. You're saying that player A played better basketball in that game. It's just not valid.


I'll leave it at this...

If you think a guy is underrated when every topic on him has several people calling him better than West, Kobe, Wade, Tmac, and Drexler...

We have different understandings of the word "underrated".

I'm pretty sure I defined why I felt he was under rated. And ever topic on Manu you seem to forget has some joker saying that maybe he's a top 400 all time player. It's quite possible that he's better then Drexler. But the fact is, as I've stated, Manu is not included on nearly any all time lists. He's beaten out by Bill Sharman. And my comparison to Dennis Johnson is not a knock, but if you have DJ stats today he would never make those lists the same as Manu never does.

Why is that? It's because as sports becomes more and more stats centric people form opinions on stats because people like you come in and try to say that counting Dennis Johnson's huge contribution that didn't show up in the stat sheet is not valid. Even though it's massive to the team winning so many of their games. But Dennis Johnson has a below average PER of 14.6 for his career, topped out at 17, and spent all his years from age 27-35 producing well below the average of 15, putting up a insanely low 12.8 in his prime at 29, and putting up a career low 11.5 at 34.

There are plenty of valid justifications for this, and I have 0 problem with DJ being considered an all time player. But the fact remains that how we view players has changed. And yes, I feeeelllll it. Before people used to use a whole lot more of what they saw with their eyes to evaluate the game. Newspapers would publish box scores and league leaders in only the most core stats. Even in the late 90's Scotti Pippen got credit for being amazing without having dominant statlines.

Today it's totally different and the Dennis Johnsons of the world (Read: Manu Ginobili) don't get the credit for what they bring to the table. Manu is his team's best player but they chant MVP for Tony Parker at the foul line. If Pippen played today his stature would be so significantly reduced. In the 90's he was considered the second best player in the league. Today there is just no chance of that. It's all based on how you feel and those ideas are valid. I think that's my point.

To sum up, you're just under rating Manu. Dude is an all time player and one of the most clutch players in the history of the league. He's not Fisher or Horry clutch either. He doesn't just hit big shots that other people make for him. He's superstar clutch. You give him the ball because he's your best pressure player and he creates play that lead to impossibly tough makes for himself, cuz he can make those shots, and easy baskets for others. Few players in NBA history know how to perform like this. Many MVP candidates don't know how to do it. Dude deserves props. If he played in the 80's he would get them. He's an all time player. QED.

[Kblaze8855]

Since you sent me a message alerting me to the fact that you replied im gonna assume you want to continue this discussion....so ill explain why I feel it wont go anywhere.

When I cite specific examples of incredibly smart basketball plays by the people I bring up...these things here:




And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup.

And a few others ive mentioned like Kidd creating a technical foul on Mike Woodson which ive heard Dirk mention as one of the smartest things ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB8KtMOnGvY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV8BhDbDrg&feature=related


I keep giving you example after example of the plays I mean...you respond with something about me just name dropping and giving you numbers when all im asking for is for you to give me plays you remember manu making that put him above the Magics, Kidd, DJs, and so on....

You you either cant or wont.

So why are we still having the discussion?

You just...feel Manu is smarter/more crafty. I...as a longtime basketball fan who has seen Manu play hundreds of times...dont remember plays that make him stand out above these people.

It seems you do. But you will not give me your reasoning beyond you just feeling like its true...then you tell me im doing the same when ive already given specific basketball plays as evidence while you have not.

That sound like something likely to produce good conversation?

It really feels like something is getting lost in translation or something.

[indiefan23]

Since you sent me a message alerting me to the fact that you replied im gonna assume you want to continue this discussion....so ill explain why I feel it wont go anywhere.

I figured you'd be interested in a response. No?


When I cite specific examples of incredibly smart basketball plays by the people I bring up...these things here:

That's the point. They all have incredibly smart plays. Listing them in a thread is a waste of time.


And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup. "

And a few others ive mentioned like Kidd creating a technical foul on Mike Woodson which ive heard Dirk mention as one of the smartest things ever:

I keep giving you example after example of the plays I mean...you respond with something about me just name dropping and giving you numbers when all im asking for is for you to give me plays you remember manu making that put him above the Magics, Kidd, DJs, and so on....

You you either cant or wont.

So why are we still having the discussion?

:0 I believe I wrote a whole article based on why. It's awesome that Magic was a great player with loads of amazing plays.

You're not really making any points. Giving example after example only creates a pissing match. Oh wow, Magic pretended to call a time out and then sprinted down the court and scored. But Manu made a fake pass to one player and passed to another guy for an easy lay up.

What do you want? Should we create a database of plays, have a rank war over then, and then tally up the points so we can have some measurable Smart Factor? ;0


You just...feel Manu is smarter/more crafty. I...as a longtime basketball fan who has seen Manu play hundreds of times...dont remember plays that make him stand out above these people.

Brain fart in 3... 2... 1.. we all just... feel. My apologies if you don't remember how brilliant Manu was.


It seems you do. But you will not give me your reasoning beyond you just feeling like its true...then you tell me im doing the same when ive already given specific basketball plays as evidence while you have not.

Yes, because listing specific basketball plays is a monumentally meaningless exercise in wasting time. No, I'm not participating in something like that with you. It's foolish.

What I will say is that Manu plays in a state of constant reaction to whats happening around him, is constantly aware of his surroundings and thus makes very few mental mistakes while constantly punishing the other team for their mental mistakes. I haven't seen anyone but Bird play the same way.

He out-thinks players. It's not about flashy passes or gimmicky tricks like calling a fake time out. He's got things like that too but who really cares. I'm not going to scour you tube looking for some silly clip of him in bounding off the D because then you'll just find another clip.

It's about a simple pass fake on your way to the basket to freeze the shot blocker to get an easy lay in or that second of hesitation to create the inch of space he needs to get his shot off, or the way he attacks in different angles so that his defender and the shot blocker is always guessing. There isn't proof of these things which is what makes your demands for proof so silly.

Yea, I guess that all means nothing because Magic threw a ball into the air with 3 seconds left, which is bogus anyway, because they did foul Magic on that play... or cuz Jason Kidd used a slick trick... sorry if I feel my opinions but we all do this. I don't know, maybe you should go back to the race card. It's a bit of a cop out, what you're doing here.

[Lebron23]

No.1 in Argentina.

[Bigsmoke]

:oldlol: Word..."routinely"

Wade dropped 27 (20 2nd half I believe). No one cares. Manu drops 26? Thread made. Wade 7pts in first half drew laughs, he's old, done etc. Manu had 2 single digit games vs OKC and no one cares. But he's on Wade level, better than Drexler. Riiiight

Smoke DZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X96SR8sdf1U

[Kblaze8855]

As I said...if hes smarter than Magic, Kidd, and so on and you have no examples to support it....I dont need to continue talking to you about it. Not like im asking for a video or extensive plays. Im saying....when you give me a reason he plays smarter than Magic, Kidd, Stockton, and others ive mentioned...ill stop assuming you dont have any. you want to feel it..feel it. People feel a lot of things they cant defend.

You ether cant do so with this issue or choose not to. Either way...why do we need to keep talking about it? either you have something for me or you dont. If you dont...im gonna get back to this 80s bucks video I have in the works.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

[SCdac]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

Still, being in the conversation as a top 10-20 shooting guard of all time is quite the achievement... considering there's been hundreds and hundreds of SG's to play the game.

[indiefan23]

As I said...if hes smarter than Magic, Kidd, and so on and you have no examples to support it....I dont need to continue talking to you about it. Not like im asking for a video or extensive plays. Im saying....when you give me a reason he plays smarter than Magic, Kidd, Stockton, and others ive mentioned...ill stop assuming you dont have any.

Give examples of what? You gave examples of Magic throwing a ball into the air which proves nothing. ;0 What you are proposing is that you want to get into the basketball equivalent of two children in a school yard arguing over who's father is stronger. You've said your dad pushed a car out of a ditch BY HIMSELF!

And now you're accusing me of refusing to provide you with evidence of something 'like you have' when you've provided nothing that proves what your are saying. Not everything you can't prove is invalid and that's the whole point of what the article is about, that you've ignored. Sure Magic was a smart player but it's not backed up because you waxed poetic about a handful of the 100's of thousands of plays he was involved in over his career.


You ether cant do so with this issue or choose not to.

You've 'proven' nothing your self you know. ;0 Lordy. Manu is a highly intelligent player. Magic was great but give me a break. He was a freak athlete for his size who used his size and athleticism to dominate the NBA. He was not 'crafty' the same way Larry Bird was and it was evident from watching them play. Magic didn't have Bird game... it was very different. And Manu has some of that game that Bird has.


Either way...why do we need to keep talking about it? either you have something for me or you dont. If you dont...im gonna get back to this 80s bucks video I have in the works.

Why am I wishing to talk about basketball... on a basketball forum? Are you serious? ;0

Posting videos and examples of Manu's craftiness (which I've already done. There's a pretty obvious video with a 'play' button on it you can click that's full of plays) does not prove anything. Just because there isn't a stat to measure this on does not mean it's not true.

One example is Manu's incredible ability to draw fouls on both ends of the court. Call them flops if you want but dude is downright deceptive and constantly fools people into fouling. It's something tangible but I'm not going to post a Manu foul drawing mix because that's stupid. You can't determine greatness by comparing video highlights... everyone has great highlights.

You're behaving like a religious zealot who claims that since there isn't absolute proof of something there's no point in discussing it, neglecting the fact that they lack absolute proof for their own beliefs while they maintain they are superior simply because in a social group they are popular.

Oh, or would it all be different if I scoured youtube and found Manu pulling a gimmicky trick time out play? ;0 No, it wouldn't, you just want to argue but have nothing to go on because it's not a 'prove it' kind of debate when it comes to Manu, just like I said in the article. Ha, yea, no I guess I'm full of shit because you one time Magic threw the ball up into the air AFTER he got fouled and the refs decided the game for LA. Yep! I'm a pretty dumb guy... what was I thinking. SOrry! feeling. it's all so obvious now. lol

[indiefan23]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

Maybe maybe not, but IMHO he's been the second-first best player on the team of the decade that's never won less then 50 games, got 3 titles and made the WCF's what, 5, 6 times? And one year they didn't do well was mostly cuz he was hurt. That counts for a whole lot. I just think it's interesting because all the normal things you can use to measure these things don't really apply to Manu cuz he's so irregular, and that irregularity in the NBA is exactly what makes his so great.

Realistically too there's no reason to put him ahead of Ray Ray if you don't want to. You can give him Bill Sharman's place. ;0 But really, when you look at him and Ray they both have entirely different games, but it's much much closer then you think. Depending on the team/game both guys might be better to have in your 2 guard spot.


Still, being in the conversation as a top 10-20 shooting guard of all time is quite the achievement... considering there's been hundreds and hundreds of SG's to play the game.

Exactly!

[greymatter]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

So after Jordan and Bryant, he's better than DWade, Jerry West, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars?

:coleman:

[indiefan23]

So after Jordan and Bryant, he's better than DWade, Jerry West, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars?

:coleman:

to all those who disagreed with me in this thread and even went to the lengths of implying that I was being a racist, yea, you lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSRk7qrwDNA

There's another one with english from the same game that is just jaw dropping as well.