What If... Chris Bosh

[jlauber]

Where is this series with a healthy Bosh?

Just curious.

[Fudge]

3-1. Maybe a sweep at this point.

[jlauber]

3-1. Maybe a sweep at this point.

I really can't argue with 3-1.

[IGotACoolStory]

He would be shitting on Wilt.

[All Net]

Maybe so but having Avery Bradley would of helped Boston too.

[PP34Deuce]

Bosh would help their offensive sets, Still an overrated defender.

[tmacattack33]

With a perfectly healthy Bosh?

It'd definitely be a completely different series.


But if everyone was healthy this year, they'd be up against the Bulls not the Celtics.

[jlauber]

He would be shitting on Wilt.

Good point.

And well thought out, too.

[inclinerator]

would help tremedously, someone to guard kg and can actually hit a mid range jumper

[Celtic_Pride]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?

[b1imtf]

Where is this series with a healthy Bosh?

Just curious.
The series would still be in Miami and Boston, no? :confusedshrug:

[BallsOut]

What if Moses didn't part the red sea?

[Zedja]

What if Perkins was back too? That lineup never lost a playoff series right?

[jlauber]

What if Moses didn't part the red sea?

Damn...I knew Malone was a three-time MVP, but I didn't know he did that, too.

[HEAT111]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?


What if Eddy Curry didn't eat a triple whopper? :lol

[Phong]

Bosh would take game winning shots instead of Haslem.

[jlauber]

Obviously, if the Heat somehow lose this series, no one will bring up the fact that Bosh missed those losses...

Nope...Lebron will get all the blame.

[RedBlackAttack]

He would obviously help the Heat, but at the same time, James and Wade were playing absurdly well together in the first two games of the series... In fact, from Game 4 against Indiana through Game 2 against Boston, that is the most cohesive that Wade/James have played together in critical situations since this union was formed.

While obviously having a player as talented as Bosh on the court during that five-game run would help in several areas, integrating him into the offense may have resulted in Wade/James not being as great as they were during said run.

Obviously, it is all conjecture, but with this Heat team, it is about more than just how much talent you can throw out there. Finding a way to get the best out of all three guys in the same game has been an issue since their first game in their first season.

On top of that, the Celtics have also suffered some monumental injuries, most notably Avery Bradley who would be vital in this series with both his defense on Wade and his ability to give Ray Allen the kind of minutes that bring out the best in him, as well.

[mans1ay3r]

Trust me, if I could give you a healthy Miami Heat team for a healthy Boston team in return, I'd take that deal.

Avery, Green, O'neal, Pierce, Allen > Chris Bosh.

[LWBMIA]

Trust me, if I could give you a healthy Miami Heat team for a healthy Boston team in return, I'd take that deal.

Avery, Green, O'neal, Pierce, Allen > Chris Bosh.

Pierce and Allen are on the court.They're healthy enough to play.

O'neal isn't with the Celtics anymore.He played last year vs the Heat and was nothing special.

Green's been out all year.Celtics still have guys like Pietrus,Daniels,Dooling to provide bench scoring.

Heat miss Bosh more than Celtics miss Bradley.

[wpdougie2180]

Don't forget about Wilcox who was finding his groove when he went down

[guy]

Rondo's playing the best of his career and KG is playing the best he's played since 2008. This isn't the same as last year. I don't think things would be much different right now.

[Indian guy]

Bosh would help their offensive sets, Still an overrated defender.

75% of the easy baskets Garnett's getting inside in this series would cease to exist if Bosh's on the floor.

This series is EASILY 3-1 at this point had Bosh been available. Maybe even a sweep.

[Indian guy]

James and Wade were playing absurdly well together in the first two games of the series

Not really. Wade's play was sub-par even in the first 2 games. He stat-padded in the 4th in Game 1. Had 1 good qtr to speak of in Game 2. As far as whether LeBron/Wade would've gelled the same had Bosh been there is concerned, remember, LeBron and Wade's best series together last year came against Boston.

[dunksby]

It's funny how Bosh only becomes a factor when the Heat lose :lol

[bmulls]

Celtics have no business playing in this series in the first place. Healthy Rose and they don't make it past the 2nd round. Healthy Bosh and they would have been swept.

So annoying watching these fake tough fools taking low blows at the Heat and celebrating like they are doing something.

If Boston makes it to the Finals they will get steamrolled. Only hope we have for a good Finals series is for Bosh to get healthy.

[Rysio]

what if... wilt came back from the dead and signed with the heat for a vet minimum? :bowdown:

[LA_Showtime]

I'm guessing Bradley, Pierce, and Allen would be healthy too, right? Hard to say.

[oolalaa]

Obviously, if the Heat somehow lose this series, no one will bring up the fact that Bosh missed those losses...

Nope...Lebron will get all the blame.

No, if Wade continues to play like a slow, uncoordinated bum who can't get off the ground anymore then he will, or at least SHOULD, get most of the blame for a Heat loss. Miami have easily enough to win this series if both James and Wade are playing at their best, with or without Chris Bosh.

This is not the same situation as the '68 ECFs, which I know you are secretly alluding to :oldlol: . Wilt, deservedly, got most of the blame in that series because he was woefully bad in games 6 and 7. Him having leg injuries is not an adequate excuse (Just like Wade's left knee injury in this BOS/MIA isn't, either).

If Bron continues to play great from here on out then you'd have to be a bona fide hater to blame a loss on him....


Oh, and to answer your question: 3-1 with Bosh. They would have won last night.

[Wally450]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?

And Wilcox. He was playing well before he went down

[Nash]

Miami were playing fantastic against a very in-form Knicks team.

[Blue&Orange]

Miami were playing fantastic against a very in-form Knicks team.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Let's see... players injured:

Jeremy Lin, Shumpert, Baron Davids, Amare, Chandler, Jeffries.

Yep how could the Knicks be more "in-form"



Lebron Stans

:lol :lol :lol

[Nash]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Let's see... players injured:

Jeremy Lin, Shumpert, Baron Davids, Amare, Chandler, Jeffries.

Yep how could the Knicks be more "in-form"



Lebron Stans

:lol :lol :lol
Jeremy Lin wasn't part of Knicks terrific ending of the season. Except for Shumpert, the rest were all present.

Or are we just going to forget about all of that?

[Blue&Orange]

Jeremy Lin wasn't part of Knicks terrific ending of the season. Except for Shumpert, the rest were all present.

Or are we just going to forget about all of that?
:lol :lol :lol :lol

Best Knicks stretch was with Lin, they were steamrolling everyone... They weren't just winning, they were having 20+ leads in every single game... 40 points leads in some...

Lebron Stans... :lol :lol :lol

The rest were present?

Baron David's career ending injury on top of just being able to play 20 minutes a game.
Shumpert's season ending injury.
Chandler with flu, limited to 20 minutes a game.
Jeffries with a blown knee.
Amare well... i guess he didn't missed any game, or played with one hand on another.

Yes they were there... It's like Lebron, technically he was there... in the finals... :roll:

Lebron Stans, they even say Knicks had a TERRIFIC ending of season to make themselfs feel better. :hammerhead:

[LamarOdom]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?

You're forgetting that Pierce is injured.

[LWBMIA]

^ Pierce is healthy enough to play.Period.


:lol :lol :lol :lol

Best Knicks stretch was with Lin, they were steamrolling everyone... They weren't just winning, they were having 20+ leads in every single game... 40 points leads in some...

Lebron Stans... :lol :lol :lol

The rest were present?

Baron David's career ending injury on top of just being able to play 20 minutes a game.
Shumpert's season ending injury.
Chandler with flu, limited to 20 minutes a game.
Jeffries with a blown knee.
Amare well... i guess he didn't missed any game, or played with one hand on another.

Yes they were there... It's like Lebron, technically he was there... in the finals... :roll:

Lebron Stans, they even say Knicks had a TERRIFIC ending of season to make themselfs feel better. :hammerhead:

This isn't true at all because I remember them barely beating teams like the Raptors and Wizards.They didn't steamroll everyone.They even lost to the Nets at home.

They did beat the Mavs and Lakers at home but it's not like either of those teams are anything special.

Also they eventually went on a 5 or 6 losing streak WITH Lin and then Woodson took over.

And Miami Heat would've owned a healthy Knicks squad too.

Heat beat them when they had a healthy Lin,Amare,Davis,
Chandler,etc

Also Heat also beat them in NY under Woodson even when Miami was in a road slump and NY was undefeated at home...

[LBJDW305]

Lol at Knicks fans mentioning injured players....THAT PLAYED THE WHOLE SERIES..."imagine heat with a healthy miller,curry,wade,lebron," ETC

[Bigsmoke]

Heat would be dominating.

The Knicks were really hot heading into the playoffs before getting raped by the Heat.

[Lord Leoshes]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?


If only Alonzo Morning was healthy.



For those Boston fans who are so ignorant & uninformed that they dont even know who is on their team. Here's a news flash, Oneal is not on your roster any more. :no:

[Lord Leoshes]

You're forgetting that Pierce is injured.


So is Wade, Miller, & obviously Bosh. But of course when the heat are injured it doesn't count.

[G-train]

Bosh's value to Miami supercedes Bradley's value to Boston so much. And I like Bradley. It's not really a comparison. It's an allstar that can drop 30/10 compared to defensive role player. Come on ISH.

[jlauber]

No, if Wade continues to play like a slow, uncoordinated bum who can't get off the ground anymore then he will, or at least SHOULD, get most of the blame for a Heat loss. Miami have easily enough to win this series if both James and Wade are playing at their best, with or without Chris Bosh.

This is not the same situation as the '68 ECFs, which I know you are secretly alluding to :oldlol: . Wilt, deservedly, got most of the blame in that series because he was woefully bad in games 6 and 7. Him having leg injuries is not an adequate excuse (Just like Wade's left knee injury in this BOS/MIA isn't, either).

If Bron continues to play great from here on out then you'd have to be a bona fide hater to blame a loss on him....


Oh, and to answer your question: 3-1 with Bosh. They would have won last night.

First of all, I never even gave Wilt a thought when I posted this.

BUT, since you brought up the '68 ECF's...

Wilt played poorly in game six...not game seven (a 14-34 game, in which his teammates did not pass him the ball.) AND, he did so, with MULTIPLE injuries, including a tear in his quad muscle (a similar injury which basically reduced Reed to a statue in the '70 Finals.) Not only that, but he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three on to game seven...and he played 48 minutes in EVERY game.

Of course, he was not only without HOF Billy Cunningham for the ENTIRE series, ... with his team up 3-1, and in game five, BOTH starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered leg injuries, and were worthless the rest of the series.

And, how about Wilt's teammates? Greer played well in game six, BUT, in game seven, he shot 8-25...and the rest of the Sixers shot 33%.

With ALL of that, and in a series in which Wilt "the choker" averaged 22 ppg and 25 rpg...the Sixers lost a game seven by four points.

[oolalaa]

First of all, I never even gave Wilt a thought when I posted this.

BUT, since you brought up the '68 ECF's...

Wilt played poorly in game six...not game seven (a 14-34 game, in which his teammates did not pass him the ball.) AND, he did so, with MULTIPLE injuries, including a tear in his quad muscle (a similar injury which basically reduced Reed to a statue in the '70 Finals.) Not only that, but he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three on to game seven...and he played 48 minutes in EVERY game.

Of course, he was not only without HOF Billy Cunningham for the ENTIRE series, ... with his team up 3-1, and in game five, BOTH starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered leg injuries, and were worthless the rest of the series.

And, how about Wilt's teammates? Greer played well in game six, BUT, in game seven, he shot 8-25...and the rest of the Sixers shot 33%.

With ALL of that, and in a series in which Wilt "the choker" averaged 22 ppg and 25 rpg...the Sixers lost a game seven by four points.


Wilt kept passing and passing and passing to his ice cold teammates in the 2nd half of that game 7 for two reasons....

1. He was completely infatuated and obsessed with his assists totals. The more he passed, the more assists he racked up.

2. He wanted no part of the pressure, similar to Lebron in the finals last year (Although, nothing, or no one, will ever be worse than that. Biggest choke job in NBA history....by far).

This was the greatest scorer of all time! His teammates were obviously struggling from the floor. This was the perfect time to step up, be a leader, and take the pressure off his teammates by demanding the ball and scoring some buckets. But no. Instead, he scored only 2 points in the biggest half of the season.

You know what, I would have far more respect for him if he went 0-15 in that 4th quarter, rather than 1-2 (or whatever he managed). At least try Wilt!! Go down firing!

The fact that they lost by 4 points makes it 10 times worse. Wilt, all too often, did just enough to lose.

[jlauber]

Wilt kept passing and passing and passing to his ice cold teammates in the 2nd half of that game 7 for two reasons....

1. He was completely infatuated and obsessed with his assists totals. The more he passed, the more assists he racked up.

2. He wanted no part of the pressure, similar to Lebron in the finals last year (Although, nothing, or no one, will ever be worse than that. Biggest choke job in NBA history....by far).

This was the greatest scorer of all time! His teammates were obviously struggling from the floor. This was the perfect time to step up, be a leader, and take the pressure off his teammates by demanding the ball and scoring some buckets. But no. Instead, he scored only 2 points in the biggest half of the season.

You know what, I would have far more respect for him if he went 0-15 in that 4th quarter, rather than 1-2 (or whatever he managed). At least try Wilt!! Go down firing!

The fact that they lost by 4 points makes it 10 times worse. Wilt, all too often, did just enough to lose.

You do realize that Chamberlain only had NINE TOUCHES at the offensive end in the second half, and only TWO in the 4th quarter (and those were offensive rebounds)? This from a player who was averaging about SIXTY per game coming into the post-season.

And can you imagine the reaction that Chamberlain would have received from the media had he "demanded" the ball in that game? Wilt, who had led the league in assists, now "selfishly" demanding the ball in the biggest game of the season? What a "cancer." The REALITY was, Wilt's COACH should have demanded his teammates to get the ball to Wilt.

And, furthermore, even RUSSELL commented that a "lessor man would not have played", which was essentially EVERY other player who has ever played the game. Reed either missed games, or portions of games, in the '70 Finals with a similar injury. Kareem missed a clinching game six of the '80 Finals with a sprained ankle. Hell, Kareem missed CHUNKS of games with a broken wrist (TWICE in his career), while Chamberlain DOMINATED in a clinching game five win the '72 Finals with not only a badly sprained wrist on one hand, but a FRACTURED wrist on the other.


And, yes, all Wilt could do was play brilliantly in the majority of his post-season games, INCLUDING "clinchers" and "elimination games", while his teammates routinely puked all over themselves. BUT, yep, Wilt only did enough to lose.

[Boston C's]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV0PLYTgl8c

what if....

[oolalaa]

You do realize that Chamberlain only had NINE TOUCHES at the offensive end in the second half, and only TWO in the 4th quarter (and those were offensive rebounds)? This from a player who was averaging about SIXTY per game coming into the post-season.

And can you imagine the reaction that Chamberlain would have received from the media had he "demanded" the ball in that game? Wilt, who had led the league in assists, now "selfishly" demanding the ball in the biggest game of the season? What a "cancer." The REALITY was, Wilt's COACH should have demanded his teammates to get the ball to Wilt.

And, furthermore, even RUSSELL commented that a "lessor man would not have played", which was essentially EVERY other player who has ever played the game. Reed either missed games, or portions of games, in the '70 Finals with a similar injury. Kareem missed a clinching game six of the '80 Finals with a sprained ankle. Hell, Kareem missed CHUNKS of games with a broken wrist (TWICE in his career), while Chamberlain DOMINATED in a clinching game five win the '72 Finals with not only a badly sprained wrist on one hand, but a FRACTURED wrist on the other.


And, yes, all Wilt could do was play brilliantly in the majority of his post-season games, INCLUDING "clinchers" and "elimination games", while his teammates routinely puked all over themselves. BUT, yep, Wilt only did enough to lose.

So??

Like I said, he wanted no part of the pressure. And saying that he would be branded a "cancer" for shooting the ball in that 2nd half is just flat out wrong.


I've said this before: Why didn't Wilt properly utilise his abilities? Why didn't he play like Russell for 3 quarters - anchor the D, block shots, rebound and facilitate - and then take over in 4th quarters with his unstoppable scoring ability?

Russell didn't do that because he COULDN'T, but we all know that's not the case with Wilt.


The truth is, Wilt didn't know how to win. His career, split into 2 parts, is defined by either shooting the ball a ridiculous amount, not facilitating, not playing great defence (Yes, I know, he was still good/very good) and just generally being a little too selfish, and then, playing great defence, blocking shots, facilitating, but not scoring enough. There was no in between.

A combination of the two would have been unstoppable. Was that really too much to ask?!

And no, this is not a case of "Whatever Wilt did was never enough!". Wilt was the most talented all round player in NBA history. Expectations were, rightly so, higher for him than with the vast, vast majority of players who have ever played and, unfortunately, just like Lebron atm, his success didn't sufficiently match his ability.


Lebron James is Wilt's worst nightmare. He is the poster child for "You can put up all the ridiculous stats you want but if you don't have a competitive heart (relatively speaking) then you aint winning anything".

Yes, Lebron will win a couple of rings before he is done, but he has the talent to win 6, 7 or 8. He wont win that many becuse he's not clutch, and he's not clutch because he doesn't have a "killer instinct", and he doesn't have a "killer instinct" because he's not that competitive. It was exactly the same with Wilt.


Which, incidentally, is why I cant rank Wilt over some one like Bird on all time lists, peak and career.

Bird was a great leader, Bird was clutch, Bird was the greatest game 7 performer in NBA history, Bird dragged a roster, as banged up as Wilt's Sixers were in '68, to the finals in '87. Intangibly, it's no contest.

[jlauber]

So??

Like I said, he wanted no part of the pressure. And saying that he would be branded a "cancer" for shooting the ball in that 2nd half is just flat out wrong.


I've said this before: Why didn't Wilt properly utilise his abilities? Why didn't he play like Russell for 3 quarters - anchor the D, block shots, rebound and facilitate - and then take over in 4th quarters with his unstoppable scoring ability?

Russell didn't do that because he COULDN'T, but we all know that's not the case with Wilt.


The truth is, Wilt didn't know how to win. His career, split into 2 parts, is defined by either shooting the ball a ridiculous amount, not facilitating, not playing great defence (Yes, I know, he was still good/very good) and just generally being a little too selfish, and then, playing great defence, blocking shots, facilitating, but not scoring enough. There was no in between.

A combination of the two would have been unstoppable. Was that really too much to ask?!

And no, this is not a case of "Whatever Wilt did was never enough!". Wilt was the most talented all round player in NBA history. Expectations were, rightly so, higher for him than with the vast, vast majority of players who have ever played and, unfortunately, just like Lebron atm, his success didn't sufficiently match his ability.


Lebron James is Wilt's worst nightmare. He is the poster child for "You can put up all the ridiculous stats you want but if you don't have a competitive heart (relatively speaking) then you aint winning anything".

Yes, Lebron will win a couple of rings before he is done, but he has the talent to win 6, 7 or 8. He wont win that many becuse he's not clutch, and he's not clutch because he doesn't have a "killer instinct", and he doesn't have a "killer instinct" because he's not that competitive. It was exactly the same with Wilt.


Which, incidentally, is why I cant rank Wilt over some one like Bird on all time lists, peak and career.

Bird was a great leader, Bird was clutch, Bird was the greatest game 7 performer in NBA history, Bird dragged a roster, as banged up as Wilt's Sixers were in '68, to the finals in '87. Intangibly, it's no contest.


Bird more CLUTCH than Wilt???!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bird had MANY post-season flop jobs.

How about this from Colts18:


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)


Continued...

[jlauber]

Continued...

The REALITY was...aside from FT shooting, Bird has NO CASE over Chamberlain. AND, think about this...Wilt MADE 2000 MORE FTs in his career than Bird did...and the two played in nearly the same number of seasons.

And in the post-season, Bird's 3pt shooting was a NON-FACTOR. He MADE 80 3pters in 164 playoff games...or ONE every TWO games!

In virtually EVERY other facet of the game, Chamberlain either was better, or FAR better.

Passing? How many assist titles did Bird win? How many times did he come in third? Chamberlain accomplished BOTH. And in the postseason, Chamberlain even had a 9.2 apg postseason, which included TWO SERIES in which he averaged a TRIPLE-DOUBLE.

Defense? Bird was a good defender, at best, and that was only early in his career. He was never a first-team defender, either. Wilt? Only Russell has a case over Chamberlain in terms of all-time defense. Hell, Wilt was voted first-team all-defense in his LAST two seasons, and would surely have had a couple more had the award existed in the first ten years of his career.

Shot-blocking? Truly laughable. Bird blocked a TOTAL of 755 shots in his entire CAREER. Harvey Pollack had educated estimates with Chamberlain blocking 10+ shots in SEASONS...which would have meant that Wilt had more blocked shots in ONE season, than Bird had in his CAREER.

Scoring? Again...not even CLOSE. How many scoring titles did Bird win? And Wilt not only won SEVEN, he won TWO by margins of +10.8 ppg and even a staggering +18.8 ppg. Chamberlain AVERAGED 40 ppg in his first seven seasons...COMBINED!

And before some idiot claims that Wilt's scoring dropped in the post-season...how many 30+ ppg post-seasons did Bird have. Chamberlain had FOUR, with 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. In fact, Chamberlain had SIX post-seasons higher than Bird's BEST post-season of 27.5 ppg. On top of that, Wilt had post-season SERIES of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg (and he had FOUR 30+ ppg post-season series just against RUSSELL.)

CLUTCH scoring??!! Wilt had FOUR 50+ point games in his post-season career (how many did Bird have BTW?)...THREE of which came in ELIMINATION GAMES. And Chamberlain added TWO more 40+ point games in TWO more ELIMINATION games.

FG% efficiency? First of all, Bird played in an NBA that had it's highest FG%'s in it's HISTORY. Once again, in the Bird-era, the NBA shot between .477 and .491...and AVERAGED about .485. In the Chamberlain-era, the NBA ranged from .410 to .456, and AVERAGED about .440.

And yet, Chamberlain's FG% was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Bird's. Chamberlain won NINE FG% titles. Bird? Never even came within MILES of ONE. In fact, Wilt has the TWO highest seasons of ALL-TIME.

How about the post-season? Bird's HIGH post-season was .524. Wilt "the choker" had EIGHT post-seasons of HIGHER, with a high of .579. Wilt's LOW post-season was .455 (in a league that shot .449). Bird had FIVE post-seasons WORSE (.450, .444, .427, .422, and a downright embarrassing .408.)

Rebounding? Bird never came within the other side of the Pacific Ocean of challenging for a rebounding crown. Wilt not only won ELEVEN rebounding titles, he was winning them by as much as FIVE per game. And how about this? In his 142 career H2H's against RUSSELL, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell by a 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg margin.

How about the post-season? Bird's HIGH post-season series was 14.0 rpg, and then his next best mark was at 12.5 rpg. Wilt? His post-season LOW was 20.2 rpg. Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, with HIGHS of 29.1 rpg and even 30.2 rpg. I suspect that Wilt's WORST post-season rebounding games would have challenged Bird's BEST. And Wilt had MANY 30+ rebound games in his post-season career, including TWO FINALS games of 38, and a playoff record (against RUSSELL) of 41.

Wilt won MORE MVP's (and really should have won THREE more too.) He was FAR more dominant in BOTH regular season, AND post-season play, too.

Once again...Bird has NO CASE over Wilt on ANY "all-time" list.

[jlauber]

And for those that may have not read this...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[oolalaa]

Bird more CLUTCH than Wilt???!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bird had MANY post-season flop jobs.

How about this from Colts18:



Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)


Continued...

Since when did 'clutch' mean how well you play in the post season?? :hammerhead: :banghead: I've said this before, lots of times.

'clutch' is how well you play in CRUNCH TIME of a close game (i.e 4th quarters but mainly the last 5 mnutes or so). I'll say it again....CRUNCH TIME of a close game. C R U N C H T I M E.

C R U N C H T I M E

Bird was a far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far better player to have on your team than Wilt, at any stage of their careers, in the last 5 minutes of a close, big game. That's a bona fide FACT, as sure footed as the any other FACT in existence.

Wilt was BAD in crunch time. Some of the reasons harp back to his lack of competitiveness and "killer instinct", but mostly they were just mechanical.

Firstly, his free throw shooting was a god damn disgrace (A 5% drop from the regular season to the playoffs? :oldlol: Bill Russell's rised 5%!). How could you ever give him the ball down the stretch of a tight game, knowing that he would brick both of his free throws? (And no, I don't believe Wilt's claim that he always made his free throws when they mattered most. Wilt said a lot of things)

Secondly, he never fouled out of a game. I dont care what anyone says, for Wilt to never, ever have fouled out once in his entire career means that on many, many occasions he played tentative, sub par defence in the closing moments of tight games. I don't see how anyone can dispute this (Giving me 2 or 3 examples where Wilt did play 'great' D in crunch time would be insulting, considering that he played over 150 post season games).


Bird has so many 'clutch' heroics in the post season that it would be impossible to post them all, but here is a sampling....

- '81 ECF game 7 vs Sixers, game winner.
- '86 ECF game 4 vs Bucks, 30/8/5. Four 3s in a row down the stretch to complete the sweep.
- '87 ECSF game 4 vs Bucks, 42/7/8. Double overtime win.
- '87 ECSF game 7 vs Bucks, 31/10/8. 13 points in the 4th! Ainge didn't play in the 4th, and remember, McHale and Parish were playing hurt throughout the entire playoffs.
- '87 ECF game 5 vs Pistons, 36/12/9. Famous steal on Isiah.
- '87 ECF game 7 vs Pistons. 37/9/9. Being guarded almost exclusively by Rodman, he scored or assisted nearly every Celtic bucket in the last 6 minutes.
- '88 ECSF game 7 vs Hawks, 34/4/6. 20 points in the 4th.


Oh, and game 7s? Here's what I know: Bird was 6-2 in his game 7s for his career. One of the losses came in his last ever game, in which he could barely move....

'81 vs 76ers....23 points (8 FGs, 6/7 FTs), game winner.

'82 vs 76ers....20/11/9 (7/18, 6/8)

'84 vs Knicks....39/12/10 (13/24, 12/12)

'84 vs Lakers....20/12/3 (6/18, 8/8), HE WAS A LOT BETTER THAN MAGIC!! :oldlol:

'87 vs Bucks....31/10/8 (9/21, 13/13), 13 points in the 4th. (Ainge missed the entire 4th, Mchale had several injuries, Parish was hurt and Walton was out)

'87 vs Pistons....37/9/9 (13/24, 10/10), scored or assisted almost every single Celtic bucket in the last 6 minutes. (again, Parish and Mchale were hurt and Walton was non-exsistent, and he was being guarded almost exclusively by Rodman in crunch time)

'88 vs Hawks....34/4/6 (15/24, 3/3), 20 points in the 4th.

'92 vs Cavs....12/5/4 (6/9, 0/0), last ever game.

Wilt was 4-5. Wilt lost THREE STRAIGHT game 7s (:roll: ). Three straight game 7s!! Are you kidding me?? That's embarassing. What other all time great can claim that? Oh ye, and 2 of those game 7s came directly after an abominably pathetic game 6, too. In 2 straight post seasons, with Wilt's team up 3-2, he was horrendous in both close out games.

(That '69 game 6 in particular. Jerry West had a bad hamstring. It was clear he wasn't going to be able to carry the scoring load, like he had done all series. Why didn't the greatest scoring machine in NBA history - that you have claimed still had the ability to score as many points as he wanted - go to Breda Kolff and his teammates and demand more touches? Step up and be a leader Wilt!! Oh, I forgot, you weren't one. Instead, he managed only 1 FG and 8 points all game. 1 stinking field goal. Just one more example of Wilt wilting in big moments)


I'll admit, most of Bird's post season heroics came in the 1st 3 rounds (kind of similar to Kobe) but when you say asinine things like Maxwell being the best player in the '81 finals and Bird not even being the 2nd best player in the '87 finals it goes too far. (Who was the 2nd best player in the '87 finals? WHO?? Kareem? :roll: )

Bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilt

[oolalaa]

Continued...

The REALITY was...aside from FT shooting, Bird has NO CASE over Chamberlain. AND, think about this...Wilt MADE 2000 MORE FTs in his career than Bird did...and the two played in nearly the same number of seasons.

And in the post-season, Bird's 3pt shooting was a NON-FACTOR. He MADE 80 3pters in 164 playoff games...or ONE every TWO games!

In virtually EVERY other facet of the game, Chamberlain either was better, or FAR better.

Passing? How many assist titles did Bird win? How many times did he come in third? Chamberlain accomplished BOTH. And in the postseason, Chamberlain even had a 9.2 apg postseason, which included TWO SERIES in which he averaged a TRIPLE-DOUBLE.

Defense? Bird was a good defender, at best, and that was only early in his career. He was never a first-team defender, either. Wilt? Only Russell has a case over Chamberlain in terms of all-time defense. Hell, Wilt was voted first-team all-defense in his LAST two seasons, and would surely have had a couple more had the award existed in the first ten years of his career.

Shot-blocking? Truly laughable. Bird blocked a TOTAL of 755 shots in his entire CAREER. Harvey Pollack had educated estimates with Chamberlain blocking 10+ shots in SEASONS...which would have meant that Wilt had more blocked shots in ONE season, than Bird had in his CAREER.

Scoring? Again...not even CLOSE. How many scoring titles did Bird win? And Wilt not only won SEVEN, he won TWO by margins of +10.8 ppg and even a staggering +18.8 ppg. Chamberlain AVERAGED 40 ppg in his first seven seasons...COMBINED!

And before some idiot claims that Wilt's scoring dropped in the post-season...how many 30+ ppg post-seasons did Bird have. Chamberlain had FOUR, with 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. In fact, Chamberlain had SIX post-seasons higher than Bird's BEST post-season of 27.5 ppg. On top of that, Wilt had post-season SERIES of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg (and he had FOUR 30+ ppg post-season series just against RUSSELL.)

CLUTCH scoring??!! Wilt had FOUR 50+ point games in his post-season career (how many did Bird have BTW?)...THREE of which came in ELIMINATION GAMES. And Chamberlain added TWO more 40+ point games in TWO more ELIMINATION games.

FG% efficiency? First of all, Bird played in an NBA that had it's highest FG%'s in it's HISTORY. Once again, in the Bird-era, the NBA shot between .477 and .491...and AVERAGED about .485. In the Chamberlain-era, the NBA ranged from .410 to .456, and AVERAGED about .440.

And yet, Chamberlain's FG% was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Bird's. Chamberlain won NINE FG% titles. Bird? Never even came within MILES of ONE. In fact, Wilt has the TWO highest seasons of ALL-TIME.

How about the post-season? Bird's HIGH post-season was .524. Wilt "the choker" had EIGHT post-seasons of HIGHER, with a high of .579. Wilt's LOW post-season was .455 (in a league that shot .449). Bird had FIVE post-seasons WORSE (.450, .444, .427, .422, and a downright embarrassing .408.)

Rebounding? Bird never came within the other side of the Pacific Ocean of challenging for a rebounding crown. Wilt not only won ELEVEN rebounding titles, he was winning them by as much as FIVE per game. And how about this? In his 142 career H2H's against RUSSELL, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell by a 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg margin.

How about the post-season? Bird's HIGH post-season series was 14.0 rpg, and then his next best mark was at 12.5 rpg. Wilt? His post-season LOW was 20.2 rpg. Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, with HIGHS of 29.1 rpg and even 30.2 rpg. I suspect that Wilt's WORST post-season rebounding games would have challenged Bird's BEST. And Wilt had MANY 30+ rebound games in his post-season career, including TWO FINALS games of 38, and a playoff record (against RUSSELL) of 41.

Wilt won MORE MVP's (and really should have won THREE more too.) He was FAR more dominant in BOTH regular season, AND post-season play, too.

Once again...Bird has NO CASE over Wilt on ANY "all-time" list.

And these god damn numbers that you seem to rehash over and over again :facepalm

Here are a couple facts to chew on:

- Both played almost the exact same number of post season games throughout their careers (164 for Bird, 160 for Wilt).

- Bird has 3 rings, Wilt only has 2.

- Bird averaged 24/10/7 on 55 TS%, Wilt averaged 23/25/4 on 52 TS%.

- Bird led the league in post season scoring 3 times during his career (totals, not average. I assume you want me to use totals, right, considering Wilt's "Assist title" you mentioned was not an APG title?), Wilt only led the league in post season scoring once :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wilt was a better scorer than Bird? You sure about that? You sure you dont want to change your mind? Because, the numbers say otherwise. Bird scored 1 more point per game, despite playing 5 minutes less per game, and was more efficient than Wilt :roll: :roll: :roll:

- Bird totaled almost 400 more assists than Wilt, in the post season

Wilt was a better passer than Bird? You sure about that? You sure you dont want to change your mind? Bird averaged over 2 more assists per game, playing 5 minutes less per game :roll:

- Bird made over 140 more free throws in the post season despite taking over 600 less free throw attempts :roll:

- Bird led the league in steals in the post season once. How many times did Wilt do that?


Yeh, I can cherry pick STATS, too.

[CavaliersFTW]

Jlauber, why not accept that guys like Larry Bird may have been more clutch in the stretch? I don't think Wilt "choked" like how people assert at all (his misses at the ft line were nothing short of random, and his performances revolved around teammate/coach chemistry not fear of pressure) but I also don't think he's the guy to close a tight game over a guy like Larry Bird. Some guys just have an extra gear in desperation situations, and while I don't buy for a second that Wilt "choked" I also don't think he shifted gears like some other players did.

[jlauber]

Since when did 'clutch' mean how well you play in the post season?? I've said this before, lots of times.

'clutch' is how well you play in CRUNCH TIME of a close game (i.e 4th quarters but mainly the last 5 mnutes or so). I'll say it again....CRUNCH TIME of a close game. C R U N C H T I M E.

C R U N C H T I M E

Bird was a far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far better player to have on your team than Wilt, at any stage of their careers, in the last 5 minutes of a close, big game. That's a bona fide FACT, as sure footed as the any other FACT in existence.

First of all, you are already CONCEDING that Wilt played better in the POST-SEASON...which is INDISPUTEABLE.

And your definition of CLUTCH is much different than mine. CLUTCH is going into a BIG GAME and DOMINATING...which Wilt did FAR more times than Bird EVER did.

Your definition of clutch EXCUSES POOR PLAY for 45 minutes of a game. Bird had many AWFUL shooting games in his post-season career. Read my previous post. In the era of the HIGHEST shooting leagues in NBA history, Bird shot WORSE in the post-season than the LEAGUE AVERAGE. Not only that, he was even WORSE in the FINALS...the truly BIG GAMES.

Your definition of Bird reminds me of John Elway in his '86 season. Elway, who, along with Johnny Unitas, was the most OVER-RATED "clutch" QB in history. Most everyone knows about "The Drive." The REALITY of "The Drive: has actually been FORGOTTEN. First of all, it was a GAME-TYING drive (not a game-WINNING drive.) Secondly, it took FIVE minutes (not two, like so many would tell you.) BUT, the BIGGEST misconception about "The Drive" was that Elway was AWFUL for the first 55 minutes of that game. 14-27 114 yards, and 2 INTS. On top of all of that, Elway "led" his team to yet ANOTHER Super Bowl blowout LOSS. (As a sidenote...the "Simpson's" had a Super Bowl Special, with the Simpson family watching the game. The announcer, "And Elway has led the Broncos on a brilliant 98 yard TD drive. With the extra point the score is Denver 7, and the 49ers, 55.") THAT was Elway. His post-season QB rating is among the WORST by a "great" in NFL history...right there with Unitas.

Continued...

[jlauber]

Continued...

Here are ALL 35 of Chamberlain's "ELIMINATION" and "SERIES CLINCHING" performances. ALL of them.


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


Now, do you care to post ALL of Bird’s “Elimination” and “Series Clinching” games?

And once again, you can have Bird in the last two minutes. I’ll take a Wilt who DOMINATED for 48 minutes.

Continued...

[jlauber]

- '81 ECF game 7 vs Sixers, game winner.
- '86 ECF game 4 vs Bucks, 30/8/5. Four 3s in a row down the stretch to complete the sweep.
- '87 ECSF game 4 vs Bucks, 42/7/8. Double overtime win.
- '87 ECSF game 7 vs Bucks, 31/10/8. 13 points in the 4th! Ainge didn't play in the 4th, and remember, McHale and Parish were playing hurt throughout the entire playoffs.
- '87 ECF game 5 vs Pistons, 36/12/9. Famous steal on Isiah.
- '87 ECF game 7 vs Pistons. 37/9/9. Being guarded almost exclusively by Rodman, he scored or assisted nearly every Celtic bucket in the last 6 minutes.
- '88 ECSF game 7 vs Hawks, 34/4/6. 20 points in the 4th.


Gotta love it. You claim that Bird had so MANY game-winners, and then list four games from the

[Grey Dawn]

What if Perkins was back too? That lineup never lost a playoff series right?

Umm, yeah Orlando when the Magic made it to the finals.

[jlauber]

Continued...


Secondly, he never fouled out of a game. I dont care what anyone says, for Wilt to never, ever have fouled out once in his entire career means that on many, many occasions he played tentative, sub par defence in the closing moments of tight games. I don't see how anyone can dispute this (Giving me 2 or 3 examples where Wilt did play 'great' D in crunch time would be insulting, considering that he played over 150 post season games).

This is truly LAUGHABLE. Chamberlain was a DEFENSIVE FORCE in the post-season.
In the

[tikay0]

What if Eddy Curry didn't eat a triple whopper? :lol
:roll:
that hit my funny bone.

[jlauber]

Wilt's DEFENSE in the post-season? I have posted this before...

[QUOTE]And I have posted Wilt

[jlauber]

I'll admit, most of Bird's post season heroics came in the 1st 3 rounds (kind of similar to Kobe) but when you say asinine things like Maxwell being the best player in the '81 finals and Bird not even being the 2nd best player in the '87 finals it goes too far. (Who was the 2nd best player in the '87 finals? WHO?? Kareem?

Maxwell LED Boston in scoring and shot .567 in the

[jlauber]

Yeh, I can cherry pick STATS, too.

So can I...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain


Chamberlain holds 71 NBA records, 62 by himself.[7] Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times.[6][8] During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games...One night, they got up to 25".[9]



[QUOTE]NBA scoring records
Sign commemorating Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game at Hershey, PennsylvaniaNBA Record - Most Points Per Game in a season (50.4 in the 1961-62 season)

Chamberlain also holds the next two spots with 44.8 in 1962-63 and 38.4 in 1960-61.

NBA Record - Most Points in a season (4,029 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 3,586 in 1960-61

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Game (100 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Half (59 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most 50 Point Games in a season (45 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 30 in 1962-63. No other player has had more than 10. Only Michael Jordan (39 including playoffs) and Kobe Bryant (25 including playoffs) have more than 20 in their careers.

NBA Record - Most 40 Point Games in a season (63 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 52 in 1962-63. Michael Jordan is third with 37 in 1986-87.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Points Per Game (7)
Record shared with Michael Jordan.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 60 Point Games (32)
Kobe Bryant is second with 5.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 50 Point Games (118)
Michael Jordan is second with 31.

NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 40 Point Games (271)[10]
Michael Jordan is second with 173.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 from December 16-29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest streaks with 6 in 1962, and 5 in 1961 and 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 from December 8-30, 1961 and January 11-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9-25, 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961-February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961-January 19, 1963)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963-March 18, 1964.

NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)

NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
Michael Jordan, at 620 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 25,000 Points (691, achieved on February 23, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
Michael Jordan, at 782 games, took the second fewest games.

NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 30,000 Points (941, achieved on February 16, 1972 against the Phoenix Suns)

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7 from 1959-60 through 1965-66)
Shared with Michael Jordan

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a season (1,597 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next 3 spots with 1,463 in 1962-63, 1,251 in 1960-61, and 1,204 in 1963-64

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a season (3,159 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next four highest with 2,770, 2,457, 2,311, and 2,298.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Game (36 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 31, and is tied with Rick Barry at third with 30

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Game (63 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two most with 62 and 60.

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Half (22 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Half (37 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962 (2nd half)

NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Quarter (21 in the 4th quarter vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Made in a Game (28 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Record shared with Adrian Dantley

NBA Record - Most seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (9)

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (6 from 1959-60 through 1964-65)

NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a season (1,363 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four spots with 1,113, 1,054, 1,016, and 991.

NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)

Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a game (48 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Rick Barry

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a half (25 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Elgin Baylor and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a three game series (104 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1960)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a five game series (159 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Points in a game (42 in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a game (17 in 1962)
Record shared with Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett

NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a half (10 in 1962)

NBA All-Star Game Record - Free throw attempts in a game (16 in 1962)
Chamberlain also holds the second most attempts in an All-Star Game with 15 in 1960.

[edit] Other selected scoring facts2nd highest career scoring average (30.07)

[jlauber]

Continuing...

[QUOTE]NBA rebounding recordsSee also: List of National Basketball Association top individual rebounding season averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association top rookie rebounding averages
See also: List of National Basketball Association players with most rebounds in a game

NBA Record - Career Total Rebounds (23,924)

NBA Record - Career Rebounds Per Game (22.9)

NBA Record - Most seasons leading the league in rebounds (11)

NBA Record - Most seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (13)

NBA Record - Rebounds Per Game in a season (27.2)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest averages with 27.0 in 1959-60 and 25.7 in 1961-62)

Chamberlain and Bill Russell occupy the top 18 spots on this list (9 each).

NBA Record - Total Rebounds in a season (2,149 in 1960-1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next six highest totals.

NBA Record - Rebounds in a game (55, Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960)
Besides Bill Russell (11 times, including 3 playoff games, max of 51) only Nate Thurmond (42) and Jerry Lucas (40) have ever gotten at least 40.

NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1,941)

NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)
Chamberlain, as a rookie, also grabbed 43 rebounds in one game, 42 in two others, and 40 in another.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.

NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a 5-game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)
Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a Game 5 victory).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most career rebounds in the NBA All-Star game (197).

NBA All-Star Game Record - Most rebounds in a half (16 in 1960).
Record shared with Bob Pettit

[edit] Other selected rebound facts2nd most consecutive seasons with 1,000+ rebounds (10)

[jlauber]

Continued...

[QUOTE]NBA versatility recordNBA Record - Most consecutive triple-doubles (9) (March 8

[jlauber]

Jlauber, why not accept that guys like Larry Bird may have been more clutch in the stretch? I don't think Wilt "choked" like how people assert at all (his misses at the ft line were nothing short of random, and his performances revolved around teammate/coach chemistry not fear of pressure) but I also don't think he's the guy to close a tight game over a guy like Larry Bird. Some guys just have an extra gear in desperation situations, and while I don't buy for a second that Wilt "choked" I also don't think he shifted gears like some other players did.

Once again, Chamberlain DOMINATED at BOTH ends of the floor for 48 minutes. True, players like Kobe, MJ, and even Bird would be preferable in the last two minutes OFFENSIVELY, BUT, I would take Wilt crushing his opposing players and teams for the first 46 minutes over Bird's play in the last two minutes anytime.

[comerb]

Bosh would help their offensive sets, Still an overrated defender.

Who overrates Bosh on defense? At most people say he's a competent team defender, which he is.

[jlauber]

Step up and be a leader Wilt!! Oh, I forgot, you weren't one

Chamberlain single-handedly carried what had been a LAST PLACE roster to a game seven, two-point loss, in the '62 ECF's, and against a 60-20 Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers. And in the playoffs that season, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .354. Now you tell me just how in the hell Wilt got that team, that far.

Then, in the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain single-handedly carried a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and 40-40 in the '65 season (Wilt was traded to them mid-way in '65) to a game seven, one point loss, against a PEAK Celtic team during their "Dynasty" that had gone 62-18. And he did so with a 30 ppg, 31 rpg SERIES. And in that game seven, he scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a thunderous dunk over Russell with 5 secs left, that brought the Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit to within 110-109. AND, the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass...which set up the Sixers for a potential game-winning shot under their basket. Of course, "Havlicek stole the ball." Oh, and in that game seven, all Chamberlain did was score 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.

He also took what very well may have been the worst roster of all-time (the '62-63 Warriors), to a 48-32 record in the '63-64 season, and a trip to the Finals, where his team lost 4-1 to the Celtics, and their EIGHT HOFers. However, two of those losses came within the waning seconds. And, Wilt outscored Russell in that series, 29-11 ppg, and outrebounded him, 27-25 rpg. Chamberlain also shot .517 in that series (which was his LOWEST FG% of any of his SIX Finals...Bird never shot better than .488 in his five, and was down to .419 in one)...and while we don't have Russell's FG%, he shot .356 in his ten post-season games, half of which were played against Wilt.

BTW, in Chamberlain's first six post-seasons, his teammates collectively shot .383, .380, .354, .352, .352 (from a team that had gone 55-25), and an unbelieveable .332. And yet, he took two of them to within an eyelash of beating the Celtics, and another one to a Finals.

[swi7ch]

4-2 Mia

[824]

Damn this jlauber has some issues o.O

[GOBB]

What did Bosh do last game? What has he done this postseason?

Sorry healthy Chris Bosh and we are seeing a Game 7 this series most likely.

Still got Miami winning the series but Bosh healthy isnt this significant impact difference maker. I have to take a #2 now, hopefully there is enough Bosh paper in the bathroom.

[CelticBaller]

damn I came to check the thread and the first thing I see is Chamberlain stats :applause: :lol

[sirkeelma]

What if

Bradley
Green
O'Neal

were healthy too?
4-0 Boston

[bluechox2]

i dont think bosh would of made much of a difference...this series depends on what lebron does

[Living Being]

damn I came to check the thread and the first thing I see is Chamberlain stats :applause: :lol
When you saw who made the thread, you should not have entered to begin with.

[Heat1011]

No question, Miami will rape the Celtics in 5 with a health Bosh

[oolalaa]

Sorry for the late reply. Didn't think you were going to respond to my previous post.


Your obsession with FG% and your disregard for the last few minutes of a close game is truly laughable.


First of all, you are already CONCEDING that Wilt played better in the POST-SEASON...which is INDISPUTEABLE.

First of all, NO, I'm not. It is HIGHLY disputable.


Your definition of Bird reminds me of John Elway in his '86 season. Elway, who, along with Johnny Unitas, was the most OVER-RATED "clutch" QB in history. Most everyone knows about "The Drive." The REALITY of "The Drive: has actually been FORGOTTEN. First of all, it was a GAME-TYING drive (not a game-WINNING drive.) Secondly, it took FIVE minutes (not two, like so many would tell you.) BUT, the BIGGEST misconception about "The Drive" was that Elway was AWFUL for the first 55 minutes of that game. 14-27 114 yards, and 2 INTS. On top of all of that, Elway "led" his team to yet ANOTHER Super Bowl blowout LOSS. (As a sidenote...the "Simpson's" had a Super Bowl Special, with the Simpson family watching the game. The announcer, "And Elway has led the Broncos on a brilliant 98 yard TD drive. With the extra point the score is Denver 7, and the 49ers, 55.") THAT was Elway. His post-season QB rating is among the WORST by a "great" in NFL history...right there with Unitas.

I'm not a big NFL fan but I know that Elway led his team to a WIN in that game and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

Winning a game by a grand total of 1 point is necessarily equal to winning a game by 50 points. Likewise, losing a game by 1 point is the same as losing it by 50.


Look at Tim Tebow, last year. Perhaps the worst passing quarterback in NFL history. The STATS he put up for 3 quarters of almost every single game last year were awful. Some were truly horrendous - games of 13/27, 10/21, 2/8, 9/20 and 9/18 (and they include the 4th quarters!!). How do you explain him going 7-4 as a starter and winning 6 straight games, then???

The 4th quarters hold FAR more importance than any other quarter. This is undeniable. Some say that the 4th is more important than the 3 other quarters combined! I dont agree with that but it's not far off.


Now, do you care to post ALL of Bird’s “Elimination” and “Series Clinching” games?

I'll get back to you on ALL of Bird's elimination/series clinching games, but I can guarentee you that, using your definition of 'clutch', he was indeed just that.


Gotta love it. You claim that Bird had so MANY game-winners, and then list four games from the ’87 playoffs. How about his LAST THREE games of the ’87 FINALS…when, he CHOKED??!! Three straight games of 7-19, 7-18, and 6-16. BTW, Bird MISSED the potential game-winner in Game four, after MAGIC hit the GAME-WINNING shot just moments before.

First of all, The Celtics wouldn't even have made it past the 2nd round without Bird's heroics!!

Secondly, he was noticably worn down in the last 3 games of that series. During the playoffs, he racked up 44 minutes per game, whilst carrying a severly banged up squad through 2 punishing 7 game series (He led the team in points, rebounds, assists and steals). It's not an excuse, just a fact.

Just like I don't have any complaints about Wilt not beating Russell's Celtics in his first 6 years in the league, I certainly dont blame, or hold it against, Bird for not beating a fresh, hungry, stacked Laker team led by the 2nd greatest player of all time (imo at least) at the peak of his powers. As far as I'm concerned, it would have been a pretty major upset.


More importantly, Wilt had an INCOMPETENT COACH

I always find it fascinating that you never acknowledge that Wilt was the CAUSE of the friction between him and Breda Kolff.

From Tall Tales:

Breda Kolff - "I met Wilt during the summer (after he was traded to the Lakers) at Kutsher's Country Club for the Maurice Stokes game. I asked him to put on the Lakers T-Shirt I had for him so we could take a picture, but he didn't want to do it. We went around for a minute, and Wilt was just being Contrary. He just wanted to see how far he could push me. It just pissed me off, but I let it go."

"On our first day of practice, Wilt was great. He moved the ball, got every rebound, blocked shots. We were ready to win the title right there - that first day. The second day, Wilt practiced, but he hardly moved, just moped around the court. The third day, he told me that he wanted to rest his knees, but not to worry because he'd be ready for games. He'd come to practice, but showed no interest. After a while, it reached the point where the other guys didn't want to practice, becuase we couldn't have a good workout with him on the court. It was like that all season."

Also,

"We were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch. When the ball stops moving, then guys don't rebound or play defence"

"I tried to talk to Wilt, I really did. Once, I said that we'd be better if he didn't spike the ball out of bounds after he blocked a shot. Then I made the mistake of mentioning Russell's name, and how the Celtic's would fast break off his blocked shots.
Wilt said, " Boston is coached to come up with Russell's blocks."
I said, "What do you want me to do, put guys half way up in the stands? Are the ushers supposed to get your blocks?"

I think it's fair to say that Wilt could be a prickly character. Him joining the Lakers in '68 affected the chemistry of that team.

Now, you could say Breda kolff was being petulant by playing Wilt in the high post all season - it was him showing Wilt who was boss - but it doesn't take away the fact that it was Wilt's worst season of his career. Blaming the coach, and effectively saying that Wilt was unlucky, is fine but utterly pointless. I only care about how a player, and his team, actually performs.

His team (btw it wasn't actually Wilt's team. Jerry West was the unquestioned leader) lost in 7 games to an underdog in the finals and Wilt only managed 14 points and 3 assists per game in the post season, going up against Thurmond, Beaty and a 35 year old Russell. Those are the FACTS.


This is truly LAUGHABLE. Chamberlain was a DEFENSIVE FORCE in the post-season.

Like I said, "Giving me 2 or 3 examples where Wilt did play 'great' D in crunch time would be insulting, considering that he played over 150 post season games"


I would challenge YOU to find those games in which he didn’t play great defense in “crunch time.”

I will get back to you on this, too, although I'm not even sure where to begin searching for that information (Any ideas? :oldlol: )


Maxwell LED Boston in scoring and shot .567 in the ’81 Finals, and was their second best rebolunder. Bird was AWFUL in two straight games, too. I get so tired of the Bird-lovers defending Bird in that series. The man couldn’t hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge (a HORRID .419 from the floor.) And keep in mind that his team was facing a 40-42 Rockets team, with only one great player.

As for ’87, Worthy played brilliantly in the clutch, and dominated games. Of course, Magic had one of the top-5 greatest Finals in NBA history. Keep in mind that LA blew Boston out in three of their four wins, so Worthy’s numbers are deceptive. He was killing Boston on those games.

How about Bird outrebounding Maxwell 15.3 to 9.5? How about Bird out assisting Maxwell 7.0 to 2.8? How about Bird's 2.3 steals to Maxwell's 0.2? Do they not matter?

And what about Bird outrebounding Moses Malone 21-15 in game 1, including grabbing 4 offensive rebounds in the last 2 mins and hitting the game winner?

What about Bird, again, outrebounding Moses 21-15 in game 2?

What about Bird, in the close out game 6, hitting 3 straight jumpers in crunch time to ice the series, when Houston were threatening to spoil the party with a late run that tied the game with 5 minutes left?

Did Maxwell deserve the finals mvp? GTFO.


Regarding '87, James Worthy had Magic ****ing Johnson on his team!!! :hammerhead: Yeh, only the greatest playmaker in NBA history, at the peak of his powers, feeding Worthy to the basket over and over and over again on the ridiculous amount of fast breaks there were in that series.

And what about "Big Game James" in that potentially "Close out" game 5 as well? 12 points on 6/19 shooting. :roll:

(Incidentally, when you consider the pace of the series and the fact that Boston was pretty banged up, I dont believe Magic's '87 finals was even a top 10 greatest ever. I have, in no particular order, Shaq's 3-peat, Jordan 93, 97 & 98, Duncan 03, Barry 75, Hakeem 94 as well as Baylor 62 and West 69 ahead of him. Baylor's and West's are certainly debatable, though, considering that they both lost.)


Wilt's records

Completely and utterly irrelevant.

[oolalaa]

Chamberlain single-handedly carried what had been a LAST PLACE roster to a game seven, two-point loss, in the '62 ECF's, and against a 60-20 Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers. And in the playoffs that season, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .354. Now you tell me just how in the hell Wilt got that team, that far.

Then, in the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain single-handedly carried a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and 40-40 in the '65 season (Wilt was traded to them mid-way in '65) to a game seven, one point loss, against a PEAK Celtic team during their "Dynasty" that had gone 62-18. And he did so with a 30 ppg, 31 rpg SERIES. And in that game seven, he scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a thunderous dunk over Russell with 5 secs left, that brought the Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit to within 110-109. AND, the "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass...which set up the Sixers for a potential game-winning shot under their basket. Of course, "Havlicek stole the ball." Oh, and in that game seven, all Chamberlain did was score 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.

He also took what very well may have been the worst roster of all-time (the '62-63 Warriors), to a 48-32 record in the '63-64 season, and a trip to the Finals, where his team lost 4-1 to the Celtics, and their EIGHT HOFers. However, two of those losses came within the waning seconds. And, Wilt outscored Russell in that series, 29-11 ppg, and outrebounded him, 27-25 rpg. Chamberlain also shot .517 in that series (which was his LOWEST FG% of any of his SIX Finals...Bird never shot better than .488 in his five, and was down to .419 in one)...and while we don't have Russell's FG%, he shot .356 in his ten post-season games, half of which were played against Wilt.

BTW, in Chamberlain's first six post-seasons, his teammates collectively shot .383, .380, .354, .352, .352 (from a team that had gone 55-25), and an unbelieveable .332. And yet, he took two of them to within an eyelash of beating the Celtics, and another one to a Finals.


Now you tell me just how in the hell Wilt got that team, that far....As well as all his other teams in the early/mid 60s

Because he was the most talented all round player the league has ever known? (Tied with Lebron)

:confusedshrug:

That had little to nothing to do with leadership. He was just that dominant.

[CavaliersFTW]

I will get back to you on this, too, although I'm not even sure where to begin searching for that information (Any ideas? :oldlol: )


I'm going to chime in here: Google News Archives.

And I can tell you right now, I have never found a single game that Wilt reduces notable production going from first half into the (2nd half and or 4th quarter. I don't know why you think he would play like that, maybe your getting brainwashed by Lebron and what the modern definition of "choke" is. At the very worst Wilt seems to have played equally well the entire duration of games and just perhaps didn't amp up like some players can if he was having trouble getting along with coaches/teammates or having trouble finding a serious motive but even that I'm not so sure about, all the papers I've read indicate he does have an extra gear that he used from time to time and video footage only confirms it. I'm editing a 40 point game of his right now and he scored only 14 points and had only 4 rebounds in the first half and his momentum just kept building like a snowball the entire game until he was just miles beyond everyone else in productivity during the closing stages of the game. In the final 5 minutes of the game he dropped in 11 points and blocked several shots. He scored 8 points in the final 3 minutes. I have several other games of Wilt's and in all of them he shows absolutely zero signs of reduced late-game production. In fact, he probably increases production in every single one of them in the 2nd half although I haven't broken them all down statistically yet. If you choose to hunt down game recaps in Google News Archives as I have done for many of his playoff runs, I highly doubt you will find any indications whatsoever that he slumps in closing time during games. He is actually given credit for stifling opponents with extra effort to close important games in the majority of playoff games I've looked at so far.

[oolalaa]

I'm going to chime in here: Google News Archives.

And I can tell you right now, I have never found a single game that Wilt reduces notable production going from first half into the (2nd half and or 4th quarter. I don't know why you think he would play like that, maybe your getting brainwashed by Lebron and what the modern definition of "choke" is. At the very worst Wilt seems to have played equally well the entire duration of games and just perhaps didn't amp up like some players can if he was having trouble getting along with coaches/teammates or having trouble finding a serious motive but even that I'm not so sure about, all the papers I've read indicate he does have an extra gear that he used from time to time and video footage only confirms it. I'm editing a 40 point game of his right now and he scored only 14 points and had only 4 rebounds in the first half and his momentum just kept building like a snowball the entire game until he was just miles beyond everyone else in productivity during the closing stages of the game. In the final 5 minutes of the game he dropped in 11 points and blocked several shots. He scored 8 points in the final 3 minutes. I have several other games of Wilt's and in all of them he shows absolutely zero signs of reduced late-game production. In fact, he probably increases production in every single one of them in the 2nd half although I haven't broken them all down statistically yet. If you choose to hunt down game recaps in Google News Archives as I have done for many of his playoff runs, I highly doubt you will find any indications whatsoever that he slumps in closing time during games. He is actually given credit for stifling opponents with extra effort to close important games in the majority of playoff games I've looked at so far.

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

[CavaliersFTW]

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXHYlPECcc
Rapidly picks up fouls. Does not deviate defensive presence.

Again, Google News Archives is where you can look if your convinced he tapers his defense and need to find evidence to back it up but I have never found such information. Your most likely only to find counter intuitive information that suggests he amps up his defense late in games especially, when he was an LA Laker in spite of his # of fouls. Lebron has only fouled out 4 times in his entire career, yet plays stellar defense. Wilt is physically his center equivalent. He def had a #'s obsession that may or may not have gotten in the way of some of his W's and L's but if we are strictly speaking fear of fouling out I'm just going to say I haven't found any evidence to indicate he was worried about fouling out in favor of winning a game (at least playoff games, which is what I generally look up). I could maybe buy that he let a few defensive opportunities slide in the regular season but even that would only ever be based on assumption until evidence was provided.

[CavaliersFTW]

And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

I always give a nice 2-3 day span to allot for the recap of a game to circulate. Usually there's a 1 day delay, so for example:

Basketballreference.com boxscore of G3, 1972 April 14th Bucks vs LA
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OXLn3WysMPs/T2yNQr2JSzI/AAAAAAAADS8/IzKMEqxNRvM/s800/April%252014th%25201972%2520-%2520G3%2520Bucks%2520vs%2520LA%2520%2528Boxscore% 2529.jpg

A Google News Archives Hit, printed on April 15th that recaps the game. I searched for Wilt Chamberlain between specified dates of 4/14/72 and 4/16/72. You can also just search for the team he played on.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2AQhzfneBBQ/T2yiuX5dk5I/AAAAAAAADUs/84TmNbvfAg4/s0/April%252015th%252C%25201972%2520G3%2520Bucks%2520 vss%2520LA%2520%25285%2529.jpg

[oolalaa]

I always give a nice 2-3 day span to allot for the recap of a game to circulate. Usually there's a 1 day delay



Thanks a lot, I'll give it a go :cheers:

[oolalaa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXHYlPECcc
Rapidly picks up fouls. Does not deviate defensive presence.

Again, Google News Archives is where you can look if your convinced he tapers his defense and need to find evidence to back it up but I have never found such information. Your most likely only to find counter intuitive information that suggests he amps up his defense late in games especially, when he was an LA Laker in spite of his # of fouls. Lebron has only fouled out 4 times in his entire career, yet plays stellar defense. Wilt is physically his center equivalent. He def had a #'s obsession that may or may not have gotten in the way of some of his W's and L's but if we are strictly speaking fear of fouling out I'm just going to say I haven't found any evidence to indicate he was worried about fouling out in favor of winning a game (at least playoff games, which is what I generally look up). I could maybe buy that he let a few defensive opportunities slide in the regular season but even that would only ever be based on assumption until evidence was provided.

That's fine, I'm all for evidence, but it defies logic, is all :oldlol:

[jlauber]

OVERALL, Chamberlain is arguably the GREATEST "Big Game" player in NBA HISTORY. Only MJ has a case over him, and at that it would be very close. You find SEVERAL poor post-seasons and flop-jobs by Bird, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, even Russell (whom Chamberlain routinely shelled), and even WEST, who was awful in the post-season in which he finally won a ring (and was just as bad the next season, too.) Yet, Wilt either outplayed, or downright dominated his opposing centers in all 29 of his post-season series. The ONLY questionable one would have been that disastrous '69 season, when Chamberlain's COACH completely blew the entire series. And even then, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in that series,...particularly in game five, and yes, even in game seven (BTW, Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter of that seventh game.)

I have already shredded Bird's "clutch" myth into the ground here. The Bird-lovers flat out excuse Bird taking SEVEN teams, with HCA edge, down in flames, and playing poorly in SEVERAL of them. Or that he was among the worst shooters among the "greats" in his NBA Finals (and in an era of the HIGHEST FG% seasons in NBA History.)

Kareem? Where to begin. In his rookie season, in the clinching game five loss against the Knicks (132-96 BTW), Reed easily outplayed him.

He did manage to win a ring in '71, but it was probably the easiest road to a title in NBA history. His 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in round one. In round two, the only team that could have given his Bucks a run, the Lakers, were without BOTH West and Baylor. Even then, by most accounts, a Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, outplayed him (nearly matching his ppg, outrebounding, and outshooting him. And in the clinching loss, Wilt horribly outplayed Kareem.) Then Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

In the '72 post-season, Kareem was outscored and outshot by Nate Thurmond (and Kareem, who averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting against Nate.) Still, his teammates carried the Bucks past that pesky Warrior team. Then, in the WCF's, Chamberlain held Kareem to .457 shooting, and even more remarkably, in the last FOUR games of that series (three of them Laker wins) Kareem shot a staggering .414 from the field. AND, in the clinching game six loss, Chamberlain just ABUSED Kareem in the 4th quarter, in leading LA to a come-from-behind win. BTW, as a sidenote, those that rip Wilt's numbers based on MPG, had better take a look at that 4th quarter. Kareem LED the NBA that season in MPG, BUT, he was completely worn out by a 35 year old Wilt in that last period.

In the first round of the '73 playoffs, Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks team down in flames (in a series in which Oscar was brilliant BTW) losing to a 47-35 Warrior team. For the series, Kareem shot .428 against Thurmond. And that was probably about what he shot against Nate in their 43 career H2H starts, too.

In the '74 Finals, Kareem, who had played exceptionally well in the first six games, was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (particularly in the 4th period, when Cowens had five fouls), and his Bucks were blownout on their home floor.

In the '75 season, Oscar retired before the start of the season...and guess what? The Bucks fell to 38-44 and didn't make the playoffs. In fact, Milwaukee tired of Kareem, and traded him off in the off-season to the Lakers. BTW, Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes, and cast of no-names, took his 48-34 team to a sweeping title. Keep that mind.

Kareem went to the Lakers, an average roster at best, in the 75-76 season. Now, think about this. In Kareem's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, and averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting...on a team that went 63-19, and had a differential of +11.1 ppg.

How about that '76 season, when it was obvious that the Lakers needed him to step up? He SHRUNK DRAMATICALLY...playing 41.2 mpg, scoring 27.7 ppg, and shooting .529 from the floor. Needless to say, his Lakers went 40-42 and didn't make the playoffs.

In the '77 season, Kareem's Lakers had the best record in the league. Kareem was outstanding in the first round of the playoffs, but against the weak Warrior centers. He put up huge numbers, but it still took seven games to dispatch a much weaker Warrior team. THEN, in the WCF's, and against a 49-33 Blazer team, Kareem had one dominating game, and was outplayed in the other three by Walton, particularly in the 4th quarters. The result? Kareem's 53-29 Lakers were SWEPT.

The Lakers BEEFED up their roster in '78 season. Now with Jamaal Wilkes, who was coming into his prime, Lou Hudson, who was still a dangerous offensive player, Norm Nixon, and the unstoppable Adrian Dantley, ....they could only go 45-37, and were buried in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team with only one borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) Remember Barry taking his 48-34 Warrior team, along with Wilkes, to a title in '75 (and sweeping a Bullets team with Hayes, Unseld, Grevey and Chenier)? Kareem with a more prime Wilkes, and much more overall talent, couldn't beat a MUCH weaker Sonics team. Incidently, a 44-38 Bullets team won the title that year.

Ok, certainly that loaded Laker roster would dominate in '79, right? Nope, they went 47-35, and were dumped by that same Sonics team (50-32) in the second round of the playoffs, 4-1.

So, in the first half of his career, a PRIME Kareem, playing in the weakest era of champions in NBA history, won ONE ring. And, he lost with teams that went 56-26, 59-23, 60-22, and 63-19 (as well as with a team that had the best record in the league in '77.)

Then Kareem caught the break of a lifetime. MAGIC arrived. The result? An immediate 60-22 record, a wipeout of those pesky Sonics in the playoffs, and a 4-2 romp over Philly in the Finals. Kareem played brilliantly in the Finals, too...EXCEPT, he couldn't go in the road game in game six. So, as always, Magic stepped up his game, and had one of the greatest game's in Finals history (scoring 42 points, on 14-23 shooting, 14-14 FTs, 7 assists, and dominating the glass with 15 rebounds.)

In the 80-81 post-season, Kareem went up against Moses and his 40-42 Rockets. And, as always, Moses just pounded Kareem. BTW, Kareem shot .462 in that Finals...in yet ANOTHER post-season in which he failed to even shoot the league average. And, it was Moses going to the Finals.

In the 81-82 post-season, MAGIC CARRIED the Lakers, with a near TRIPLE-DOUBLE post-season, and easily won his second FMVP. Even Bob McAdoo, in considerably less minutes, matched Kareem's output in that post-season and Finals. BTW, Magic would outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting...and would continue to do so the next SEVEN seasons, as well. THAT tells you who the true LEADER of the 80's Lakers really was.

In the 82-83 Finals, albeit with even Magic playing poorly (and without an injured Worthy), the Sixers, behind Moses just MURDERING Kareem, SWEPT the Lakers. Moses easily outscored him, and CRUSHED him on the glass. BTW, in their seven H2H post-season games, Moses went 6-1 against Kareem, and just wiped the floor with him.

In the '84 Finals, while Johnson, with an 18 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, .560 Finals was labeled "Tragic", Kareem once again shot below the league average in the Finals, only shooting .481. In the pivotal game five, Kareem goes 7-25.

Kareem finally had a great Finals in '85, and deservedly won the FMVP...BUT, the Lakers REAL post-season MVP was Magic, who led that Laker team to a lightning fast 126 ppg in the playoffs. He was now CLEARLY the man. And even Worthy was just as valuable now as Kareem (with an unbelievable and under-rated Finals.)

The '86 season was interesting. Kareem went H2H with Hakeem in five games, and averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting (in fact, in their first ten straight H2H games, Kareem averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting against Hakeem...including games of 40, 43, and 46.) BUT, in the WCF's, the Rockets moved Sampson on Kareem, and he slid to a 27 ppg .496 series. And the Lakers were stunned by the Rockets.

In '87, the vaunted Lakers go 65-17, and just annihilate the NBA. Worthy and Magic are now the two best players. In fact, while Kareem was still a good offensive player, he could no longer rebound for his life, nor play any defense. IMHO, the Lakers would have won a title without him.

And that would CLEARLY come to light the very next season ('88). Kareem is now around LA's FIFTH best player. And, he is AWFUL in the post-season. And even WORSE in the Finals (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting...with probably the WORST game seven ever played by a "great.") The Lakers win a title DESPITE him.

In Kareem's LAST season ('89), Magic takes LA into the Finals with an 11-0 record. However, he is injured mid-way thru game two, and is done. The result? Kareem passively watches while his Lakers are SWEPT.

Then, think about this. In Kareem's LAST season, the Lakers went 57-25. How about AFTER he retired? LA goes 63-19, which is their SECOND best record of the decade. And in the following season, Magic takes an injured and over-the-hill Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another Finals.

Magic "retired" after that season...and the Lakers immediately dropped to 43-39. Then, the next year they slide to 39-43.

Kind of puts the Kareem-Magic 80's into a better perspective.

In any case, Kareem had MANY FLOP JOBS in his career.

[jlauber]

I have never, ever called Wilt a choker. He CERTAINLY wasn't a 'winner', but anyone who calls him a loser and a choker is going too far.

Wilt was obsessed with statistics. My point was simply that, having never, ever fouled out of a game during his whole career, it's highly likely that Wilt played sub par/tentative defense in the closing moments of tight games, when he had 4/5 fouls, in order to preserve a record/streak that he was so proud of. That's all. Normal players, who weren't obsessed with not fouling out, wouldn't have that in the back of their mind - they could play more aggressively and fearlessly.

Remember, I'm not saying that Wilt's defense sucked in crunch time when he had a few fouls, but I am saying that it almost certainly dropped off from his peak, earlier in games. I mean, it's logical - HE NEVER FOULED OUT!!!!!


And btw, if you wanted to find a particular game of Wilt's in google news archive, would you just type in "Wilt Chamberlian" and the date of the game? I've used it a few times before but I dont find it easy to get exactly what I want.

First of all, Chamberlain was a GREAT "winner." In his 14 seasons in the NBA he went to TWELVE Conference Finals (Bird went to eight in his 13 seasons.) He played on SIX Division winners. He played on SIX Conference winners. He went to SIX Finals. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games (Russell played on three BTW.) He anchored two teams that went 68-13 and 69-13. Think about that...only MJ can make a claim that he played on better teams. Not Bird, not Kareem, not Shaq, not Kobe, not Duncan, not Russell, and certainly not Hakeem (whose BEST record was only 58-24.) And Chamberlain anchored two dominating champions.

Was Wilt "obsessed with stats?" You better ask his COACH's. In his 50 ppg season, his COACH asked Wilt to shoot. Why? Because he took a look at that pathetic and aged roster, and realized that the ONLY hope they had was for Wilt to score.

And how come Wilt the "stats-obsessed" Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting when his COACH, Alex Hannum, asked him to before the start of the 66-67 season? Did Jordan ever cut back his shooting? Kobe?

And Wilt was ripped by the moronic Bill Simmons for setting out to lead the NBA in assists in the '68 season....which he did. What a "selfish" role to play. Oh, and BTW, the Sixers RAN AWAY with the BEST RECORD in the league, too. Obviously Wilt's "selfishness" really hurt that team.

As for Van Breda Kolf in '69, he had Chamberlain, the greatest LOW-POST center in NBA history (and this is not even close to debatable), with 15 ft range...playing a HIGH post and setting screens. He even BENCHED Wilt at times during the season. Wilt certainly didn't like it, but he did it. He watched as Elgin Baylor completely puked all over himself in the post-season, too. Of course, Van Breda Kolf was immediately fired after that Finals...which not only cost Wilt a ring, but Van Breda Kolf's career, too.

And by Wilt's last two seasons, he was shooting about 9 FGAs per game, and STILL hanging 30+ point games when asked.

As for Wilt having never fouled out of an NBA game...think about this: Wilt AVERAGED 2.0 PF per game in his NBA career (on 45.8 mpg.) THEN, in the post-season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 2.5 PF per game (in an incredible 47.2 mpg.) Just how often was Wilt even remotely in foul trouble?

But, once again, I have pointed out games in which he played BRILLIANTLY while in foul trouble. And his defense was second only to Russell's in NBA history (again, this is not even debatable.) An OLD Chamberlain, on a surgically repaired knee, held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in their 28 H2H games (Kareem shot .559 in his career), and in their LAST TEN H2H's, Wilt held Kareem to .434 shooting. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain, at his peak athleticism in the mid-60's, would have leveled Kareem with.