Can someone explain how MJ averaged 11 assists in 91 finals

[Derivative]

So as the GOAT... I can understand how MJ can average 31.2 ppg on 55.8% shooting, and also grab 6.6 boards a game, get 2.8 steals a game, and 1.4 blocks a game...

but I can not understand how, despite doing all that, he manages to average 11.4 assists per game, being responsible for almost 60 of his teams points per game....


at the same time, Magic Johnson, who is the GOAT PG, only managed to average 1 more assist than MJ...

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'm just gonna say some Homer Bulls fan shit and say....cause its Michael Jordan.

[kidachi]

he passed the ball.. and his teammates made shots..

[Derivative]

he passed the ball.. and his teammates made shots..

finals defense should be really tight, and jordan didn't have much good shooters around him, so for him to average 11 assists is pretty amazing, he must have made alot of good passes

[RazorBaLade]

he passed to the guys that made shots

[DuMa]

most of them were on fastbreaks.

[xcesswee]

finals defense should be really tight, and jordan didn't have much good shooters around him, so for him to average 11 assists is pretty amazing, he must have made alot of good passes

Apparently you didn't know John paxson. He had some amazing games during that series.

[kidachi]

finals defense should be really tight, and jordan didn't have much good shooters around him, so for him to average 11 assists is pretty amazing, he must have made alot of good passes

Lakers doubled a lot.. Pippen and the supporting cast really benefited.. especially Paxson in game 5..

[Yao Ming's Foot]

finals defense should be really tight, and jordan didn't have much good shooters around him, so for him to average 11 assists is pretty amazing, he must have made alot of good passes

Not really... the other Bulls averaged 16.4 apg compared to 6.8 for the non Magic Lakers. As a proportion of the teams assists Jordan didnt compare to Magic. :confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

So as the GOAT... I can understand how MJ can average 31.2 ppg on 55.8% shooting, and also grab 6.6 boards a game, get 2.8 steals a game, and 1.4 blocks a game...

but I can not understand how, despite doing all that, he manages to average 11.4 assists per game, being responsible for almost 60 of his teams points per game....


at the same time, Magic Johnson, who is the GOAT PG, only managed to average 1 more assist than MJ...
Well first of all MJ played something like 44 minutes per game.

Second, they ran everything through him. His USG% was through the roof.

Third, they guarded him closely so he had to pass the ball a lot after sucking the defense in.

Those are the reasons.

[Derivative]

Not really... the other Bulls averaged 16.4 apg compared to 6.8 for the non Magic Lakers. As a proportion of the teams assists Jordan didnt compare to Magic. :confusedshrug:

amazing thing is that MJ did it while averaging 32ppg on 56% shooting, grabbing 6.6 boards, getting 2.4 blocks and 1.5 blocks a game....

[Derivative]

Well first of all MJ played something like 44 minutes per game.

Second, they ran everything through him. His USG% was through the roof.

Third, they guarded him closely so he had to pass the ball a lot after sucking the defense in.

Those are the reasons.

they guarded him closely and he still managed to average 32 ppg on 56% shooting.... wow

everytime kobe gets guarded closely you see his FG drop down to the 30s, and cant even average more than 7 assists

[Haymaker]

amazing thing is that MJ did it while averaging 32ppg on 56% shooting, grabbing 6.6 boards, getting 2.4 blocks and 1.5 blocks a game....

I'm more in awe by the 56% shooting.

[Derivative]

I'm more in awe by the 56% shooting.

in one game he made 11 straight field goals, not points, but field goals

[G-train]

Jordan played brilliantly, and his Bulls were hungry for success against an injury riddled opponent.

[97 bulls]

Apparently you didn't know John paxson. He had some amazing games during that series.
This exactly. Magic had a bad habit of roaming. And this left paxson wide open constantly. Not to mention jordans penetrations. But it was mainly magics terrible defense

[Maestro33]

You beat me to it. PAX. Before he knocked down Vinny Del Negro he was knocking down everything in sight. Crazy good shooter, especially that series.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

they guarded him closely and he still managed to average 32 ppg on 56% shooting.... wow

everytime kobe gets guarded closely you see his FG drop down to the 30s, and cant even average more than 7 assists



Otis Thorpe 15.7 ppg 58% FG
Hakeem 22.0 ppg 58%FG
Mullin 22.3 ppg 53%FG
Haradaway 26.8 ppg 50%FG
Porter 17.0 ppg 51%FG

:confusedshrug:

We are not talking about the 04 Pistons here.

[Derivative]

Otis Thorpe 15.7 ppg 58% FG
Hakeem 22.0 ppg 58%FG
Mullin 22.3 ppg 53%FG
Haradaway 26.8 ppg 50%FG
Porter 17.0 ppg 51%FG

:confusedshrug:

We are not talking about the 04 Pistons here.

hakeem is a bigman, for him to shoot above 50% is mandatory

all other guys werent focal points of defense, you don't see guys like porter and mullin get double or triple teamed like jordan

[Yao Ming's Foot]

hakeem is a bigman, for him to shoot above 50% is mandatory

all other guys were focal points of defense, you don't see guys like porter and mullin get double or triple teamed like jordan

Horace Grant 14.6 ppg 63%FG
John Paxson 13.4 ppg 65% FG

:confusedshrug:

[Derivative]

Horace Grant 14.6 ppg 63%FG
John Paxson 13.4 ppg 65% FG

:confusedshrug:


again, they weren't focal points of laker defense.

[Micku]

Apparently you didn't know John paxson. He had some amazing games during that series.

John Paxson was on fire on that series. The dude average 13.4 ppg on 65.3% in that series.

Paxson is a really good shooter in general. His mid range game was automatic. And I think he also hit a bunch of FGs in a row just like Jordan. He was clutch too. Anyway, Paxson had one hell of a series.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

again, they weren't focal points of laker defense.

Show me a defense Kobe faced in the Finals where 2 of his teammates put up double digits on 60%+ efficiency since they were not focal points of the opponents defense.

:confusedshrug:

[D-Wade316]

Show me a defense Kobe faced in the Finals where 2 of his teammates put up double digits on 60%+ efficiency since they were not focal points of the Laker defense.

:confusedshrug:
You're beyond retarded.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're beyond retarded.

For pointing out that 9 other players averaged double digit scoring against the 91 Lakers in the playoffs and shot over 50%?

That same number for the 2010 Celtics is 3 (Wade. Shaq and Dwight Howard).

Offensive numbers born of that era are inflated.

:confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

they guarded him closely and he still managed to average 32 ppg on 56% shooting.... wow

everytime kobe gets guarded closely you see his FG drop down to the 30s, and cant even average more than 7 assists
Oh wait so this is actually a kobe-MJ bait thread?

[97 bulls]

Show me a defense Kobe faced in the Finals where 2 of his teammates put up double digits on 60%+ efficiency since they were not focal points of the opponents defense.

:confusedshrug:
I think his point was that grant got a large portion of his point off dunks and easy layyups, as well as offensive rebounds. Paxson got his off of wide open jumpers. It was as if he was the only guy in the gym. They didn't create their own shots like jordan

[TheBigVeto]

He's got great supporting cast.

[Micku]

For pointing out that 9 other players averaged double digit scoring against the 91 Lakers in the playoffs and shot over 50%?

That same number for the 2010 Celtics is 3 (Wade. Shaq and Dwight Howard).

Offensive numbers born of that era are inflated.

:confusedshrug:

Kind'a. Like the FG% is inflated, but big part of reason is that they still hardly use the 3s that much back then.

Look at John Paxon (the Bulls best shooter). He played on average 31.8 mpg in a five game series against the Lakers. He only attempted 4 three point shots. Only made 1. Jordan averaged 44.0 mpg, and only attempted 4 threes. If look at the whole bulls team in the series, they only average 4.2 three attempts in that series. That's unheard of and not seen in today's NBA. If teams don't take a bunch of 3s like back then, then they would definitely average a much higher percentage. It's also evidence when checking out players 2 point shots %. They are significantly higher than their 3 points shots, obviously. So, if they cut it down, then today's league would average a higher percentage too.

So, they played a different style and teams don't play that 2 point offense as much anymore. They expanded upon the 3 point. The pacing back then was a bit higher too, but back in playoffs the game (like today) the game slows down and they still had to do more half court sets.

Regardless, I doubt the offense numbers affect the stars that much since you see stars that migrated from the 80s to the 90s and to the early 00s. I think it affect role players a lot more.

And if you watch the series, Paxson was on fire. He couldn't miss. You pass it to him and it was automatic.

Check out the bballbreakdown. Pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARHtF4Letw

[bdreason]

He was the total package. He took high % shots, and made the right passes... and he was clutch. That's why he's the only perimeter player in the argument for GOAT.

[Nevaeh]

Not really... the other Bulls averaged 16.4 apg compared to 6.8 for the non Magic Lakers. As a proportion of the teams assists Jordan didnt compare to Magic. :confusedshrug:

The "Other Bulls" have Michael Jordan on their team. You know, one of the greatest finishers ever, in his prime? I can totally imagine you in a laboratory trying to figure out a way to bring Jordan down "Evil Villain/ Take over The World Style", and it seems every other week you fail yet again. Curses!!
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Jordan's teammates also got hot at the right time, and were totally in sync with each other, playing Team Ball. Of course, you wouldn't know too much about that now, would you...

[Quickening]

Weak era, next.

[Nevaeh]

Weak era, next.

Don't worry, the Heat "era" will be over soon enough.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[coin24]

Heat "era":lol :lol Good one!:cheers:

[Rake2204]

Never realized he averaged 32ppg and 11apg until I played NBA 2K11, where it was a pre-requisite goal to equal those averages in a series against the '91 Lakers. Pretty crazy numbers no matter how you slice it.

[Glide2keva]

Kind'a. Like the FG% is inflated, but big part of reason is that they still hardly use the 3s that much back then.

Look at John Paxon (the Bulls best shooter). He played on average 31.8 mpg in a five game series against the Lakers. He only attempted 4 three point shots. Only made 1. Jordan averaged 44.0 mpg, and only attempted 4 threes. If look at the whole bulls team in the series, they only average 4.2 three attempts in that series. That's unheard of and not seen in today's NBA. If teams don't take a bunch of 3s like back then, then they would definitely average a much higher percentage. It's also evidence when checking out players 2 point shots %. They are significantly higher than their 3 points shots, obviously. So, if they cut it down, then today's league would average a higher percentage too.

So, they played a different style and teams don't play that 2 point offense as much anymore. They expanded upon the 3 point. The pacing back then was a bit higher too, but back in playoffs the game (like today) the game slows down and they still had to do more half court sets.

Regardless, I doubt the offense numbers affect the stars that much since you see stars that migrated from the 80s to the 90s and to the early 00s. I think it affect role players a lot more.

And if you watch the series, Paxson was on fire. He couldn't miss. You pass it to him and it was automatic.

Check out the bballbreakdown. Pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARHtF4Letw
They only took 21 3's that whole series.

The Magic will take that many in a game.

[Dragonyeuw]

in one game he made 11 straight field goals, not points, but field goals

I think it was 13 in a row.....

[Dragonyeuw]

John Paxson was on fire on that series. The dude average 13.4 ppg on 65.3% in that series.

Paxson is a really good shooter in general. His mid range game was automatic. And I think he also hit a bunch of FGs in a row just like Jordan. He was clutch too. Anyway, Paxson had one hell of a series.

Including 20 points in the deciding game 5. Wasn't much the Lakers could do, they had to obviously respect Jordan's drives and when they converged on him, he was hitting Paxson time and time again, whose jumper was on automatic.

[OldSchoolBBall]

most of them were on fastbreaks.

That's actually not true at all. In fact, very few of them were on fastbreaks, though some were on early offense where Grant, for instance, would sprint down and get inside position and MJ would rifle a pass inside. The Bulls didn't have too many fastbreaks that series, actually, and many of the ones they did have saw MJ as the recipient of the pass.

The entire series is up on YT to verify this. I think MJ had 7-8 assists in the first quarter of one of those games. He was putting on a passing clinic that series.

[OldSchoolBBall]

in one game he made 11 straight field goals, not points, but field goals

13 straight FG's, actually, and he was 15-18 FG for that game.

lol @ this troll Yao Ming's Foot. :oldlol:

[Glide2keva]

That's actually not true at all. In fact, very few of them wer on fastbreaks, though some were on early offense where Grant, for instance, would sprint down and get inside position and MJ would rifle a pass inside. The Bulls didn't have too many fastbreaks that series, actually, and many of the ones they did have saw MJ as the recipient of the pass.

The entire series is up on YT to verify this. I think MJ had 7-8 assists in the first quarter of one of those games. He was putting on a passing clinic that series.
And the the whole series is on DVD, they can see for themselves.

I have it. Go get it.

http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Bulls-1991-NBA-Champions/dp/B000JLTRGS

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Also, to make it even more remarkable, wasn't handchecking still allowed then too?

[Glide2keva]

Also, to make it even more remarkable, wasn't handchecking still allowed then too?
Handchecking was in full effect. See the Pistons ECF series before the Finals, even the NYK series (although a sweep) was tough, and even more tough the next year in the ECSF.

[swi7ch]

The reason is because he is the Greatest Of All Time and therefore can do anything basketball-related.

[Glide2keva]

Can someone explain how MJ averaged 11 assists in 91 finalsBasketball reasons

[pauk]

He had a brilliant supporting cast that made the Lakers PAY for double-teaming Jordan......

[guy]

Otis Thorpe 15.7 ppg 58% FG
Hakeem 22.0 ppg 58%FG
Mullin 22.3 ppg 53%FG
Haradaway 26.8 ppg 50%FG
Porter 17.0 ppg 51%FG

:confusedshrug:

We are not talking about the 04 Pistons here.

Its all era. Kobe in Jordan's place would've averaged 34 ppg/13 apg/8 rpg on 59 FG%.

[andgar923]

Its all era. Kobe in Jordan's place would've averaged 34 ppg/13 apg/8 rpg on 59 FG%.
Clearly this, because as history has shown Kobe will do just that under constant double and triple teams and physical play during the NBA Finals. Specially without a true big man.

[guy]

Clearly this, because as history has shown Kobe will do just that under constant double and triple teams and physical play during the NBA Finals. Specially without a true big man.

Yup. I would think if he played in Jordan's era, his finals stats would look about 12+ppg/3+apg/3+rpg/15+FG% better then what it is in this era. Although every statistical measure gives Jordan the edge, its solely cause of the era, which in about a 10-15 years span is almost night and day.

[andgar923]

Yup. I would think if he played in Jordan's era, his finals stats would look about 12+ppg/3+apg/3+rpg/15+FG% better then what it is in this era. Although every statistical measure gives Jordan the edge, its solely cause of the era, which in about a 10-15 years span is almost night and day.

Exactly.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Clearly this, because as history has shown Kobe will do just that under constant double and triple teams and physical play during the NBA Finals. Specially without a true big man.

Yeah because if we can agree about one thing about the Showtime Lakers. It's their physical play. :oldlol:

The 91 Lakers would be the worst defense Kobe faced in the Finals by far and its not even close.

[thelucifer69]

Lakers double team MJ a lot he always found the open man

Paxson gone crazy he shot 60% that series

[Calabis]

Show me a defense Kobe faced in the Finals where 2 of his teammates put up double digits on 60%+ efficiency since they were not focal points of the opponents defense.

:confusedshrug:

Shaq, 26/10/63% 2004, problem was Kobe didn't want to pass him the ball, so how they hell are you going to get 2 guys doing it, with a gunner like that

[Calabis]

Yeah because if we can agree about one thing about the Showtime Lakers. It's their physical play. :oldlol:

The 91 Lakers would be the worst defense Kobe faced in the Finals by far and its not even close.

:facepalm

Anytime Kobe has faced a physical(if we can call it that) defense he has put up 38-40% shooting

[dynasty1978]

he passed the ball.. and his teammates made shots..

about 11 times per game.

[Calabis]

Kind'a. Like the FG% is inflated, but big part of reason is that they still hardly use the 3s that much back then.

Look at John Paxon (the Bulls best shooter). He played on average 31.8 mpg in a five game series against the Lakers. He only attempted 4 three point shots. Only made 1. Jordan averaged 44.0 mpg, and only attempted 4 threes. If look at the whole bulls team in the series, they only average 4.2 three attempts in that series. That's unheard of and not seen in today's NBA. If teams don't take a bunch of 3s like back then, then they would definitely average a much higher percentage. It's also evidence when checking out players 2 point shots %. They are significantly higher than their 3 points shots, obviously. So, if they cut it down, then today's league would average a higher percentage too.

So, they played a different style and teams don't play that 2 point offense as much anymore. They expanded upon the 3 point. The pacing back then was a bit higher too, but back in playoffs the game (like today) the game slows down and they still had to do more half court sets.

Regardless, I doubt the offense numbers affect the stars that much since you see stars that migrated from the 80s to the 90s and to the early 00s. I think it affect role players a lot more.

And if you watch the series, Paxson was on fire. He couldn't miss. You pass it to him and it was automatic.

Check out the bballbreakdown. Pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARHtF4Letw

You already killed him with a page full of facts about a year ago, he's still stuck on the rating thing.

:banghead:

[Calabis]

Weak era, next.

LMAO!!! At least we know LBJ and Wade would still be ringless, struggling against a past your prime, busted up Celtics team:roll:

[jjayfive]

because MJ made the right pass and his teammates made 11 jumpers or layups..

[gengiskhan]

You're beyond retarded.

there is a name for that actually:coleman:

"full retard" if not you can substitute "kobe'tard" for that as well.:coleman:

[gengiskhan]

So as the GOAT... I can understand how MJ can average 31.2 ppg on 55.8% shooting, and also grab 6.6 boards a game, get 2.8 steals a game, and 1.4 blocks a game...

but I can not understand how, despite doing all that, he manages to average 11.4 assists per game, being responsible for almost 60 of his teams points per game....


at the same time, Magic Johnson, who is the GOAT PG, only managed to average 1 more assist than MJ...

A joke on ISH.

1991 lakers were not that good.

HINTS:

Lakers Steal Game 1 in Chicago with methodical offense led by Runner-Up MVP Magic Man

Lakers beat the best team in the west Blazers

Lakers almost took Game 3 if MJ didn't hit the "buzzer beater" to send the game 3 in OT & he was absolutely brilliant in OT.

First 3 Games, Lakers looked a better team.

Now the reality check:

Bulls had hungry GOAT looking for his first ring. That made the rest of the Bulls hungry.

Any other team from East Conf. LAL would've gone up 2-1 after 3 games. EASILY

Thats how great Magic was. He was an ultimate floor general. injury or no injury, he was supreme controller of the momentum & the game.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shaq, 26/10/63% 2004, problem was Kobe didn't want to pass him the ball, so how they hell are you going to get 2 guys doing it, with a gunner like that

Hint:

10 other Lakers shot the ball in the 04 Finals. 9 of them shot under 40%. So clearly Kobe should have passed more to Rick Fox (4 for 7 in the series) and they would have won.

:oldlol:

[Calabis]

Hint:

10 other Lakers shot the ball in the 04 Finals. 9 of them shot under 40%. So clearly Kobe should have passed more to Rick Fox (4 for 7 in the series) and they would have won.

:oldlol:

:facepalm

Hint, tends to happen, when the most dominant player on the court, who opens up the court for other players stops getting the ball. The offense also gets out of wack, when one player decides he's above the team and coaches and goes into full on chuck mode

Kobe 113 FGA

Fisher, George, Payton and Malone 112 FGA combined

And we all know what Phil Jackson said

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm

Hint, tends to happen, when the most dominant player on the court, who opens up the court for other players stops getting the ball. The offense also gets out of wack, when one player decides he's above the team and coaches and goes into full on chuck mode

Kobe 113 FGA

Fisher, George, Payton and Malone 112 FGA combined

And we all know what Phil Jackson said

If Kobe was wrong in shooting more than Shaq due to his higher efficiency why would it be wrong for him to shoot more than those 4 players you just mentioned? 38%FG vs 34%FG?

But really its has nothing to do with Kobe's supposed shot jacking, was Kobe also hogging the ball for the Pacers too??

http://i.imgur.com/7S0Jo.png

I get that you guys like to hang on the fact that Kobe didn't win 4 rings before Jordan ever sniffed one and that is supposedly all his fault. But it requires a disconnect with reality in which Shaq averaged 50-70 points per game and actually hits his free throws.

[04mzwach]

I'm just gonna say some Homer Bulls fan shit and say....cause its Michael Jordan.
:cheers: best answer

[Calabis]

If Kobe was wrong in shooting more than Shaq due to his higher efficiency why would it be wrong for him to shoot more than those 4 players you just mentioned? 38%FG vs 34%FG?

But really its has nothing to do with Kobe's supposed shot jacking, was Kobe also hogging the ball for the Pacers too??

http://i.imgur.com/7S0Jo.png

I get that you guys like to hang on the fact that Kobe didn't win 4 rings before Jordan ever sniffed one and that is supposedly all his fault. But it requires a disconnect with reality in which Shaq averaged 50-70 points per game and actually hits his free throws.

:facepalm

:wtf: are you talking about? What does the Pacers series have to do with the 2004 NBA Finals, when Shaq was shooting 60%, yet the guy shooting 38% kept jacking.....he lost them that series deal with it......he also has never put a Finals together like this Jordan performance, deal with it

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well first of all MJ played something like 44 minutes per game.

Second, they ran everything through him. His USG% was through the roof.

Third, they guarded him closely so he had to pass the ball a lot after sucking the defense in.

Those are the reasons.

Jordan wasn't as ball-dominant in that series as many of the perimeter stars we see today. USG% doesn't accurately demonstrate ball dominance because it only adds up the possessions that end in some kind of statistic. Doesn't tell you how much they're dribbling, how much they play off the ball, or about the possessions you make a pass and the next player passes or misses a shot.

[tmacattack33]

Pointless thread.

Yes, MJ was the best of all time.

We already knew this.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm

:wtf: are you talking about? What does the Pacers series have to do with the 2004 NBA Finals, when Shaq was shooting 60%, yet the guy shooting 38% kept jacking.....he lost them that series deal with it......he also has never put a Finals together like this Jordan performance, deal with it

Its pretty simple. The 04 Pistons held nearly the entire Pacers team under .400% shooting in the prior series without a ball hogging guard. With that knowledge why would anyone believe that it was in fact Kobe who was responsible for the inefficiency of every other Laker getting any legitimate playing time the following playoff series?

The complete lack of common sense related to the discussion of that series never fails to amuse me. Shaq averaged 43% from the FT line in the playoffs. The Pistons sent him to the line instead of giving up a shot attempt every chance they could. Beyond that they are going to make passing the ball into him as difficult as possible and guess what sometimes just sometimes somebody else is going to have to take a shot at the basket because Shaq being the only offensive scoring option is only possible in video games.

Kobe never faced a defense as soft as 91 Lakers in the Finals. To put up better numbers than Jordan against an elite defense like the 04 Pistons he would have to be 2-3 times the player Jordan was. As great as Kobe is that he is not that good. :confusedshrug:

[Bigsmoke]

he was really really REALLY good.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Its pretty simple.:

You're right. MJ faced EVERY defense Kobe faced, and more. Zones, traps, doubles, triples, off the ball doubles, box and ones, everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE) - as well as far tougher defense / perimeter handchecking allowed under the rules. Today the rules are geared toward making perimeter scoring easier. That's why Phil Jackson in 06 said that "Michael would average 45 a night under these rules." So have Drexler and Dumars.

[bwink23]

You're right. MJ faced EVERY defense Kobe faced, and more. Zones, traps, doubles, triples, off the ball doubles, box and ones, everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE) - as well as far tougher defense / perimeter handchecking allowed under the rules. Today the rules are geared toward making perimeter scoring easier. That's why Phil Jackson in 06 said that "Michael would average 45 a night under these rules." So have Drexler and Dumars.


I'll throw Scottie Pippen in there too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB79MKYPVBQ

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll throw Scottie Pippen in there too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB79MKYPVBQ

Nice. The video I posted completely disproves everything these Kobe fanatics claim.

[Nevaeh]

Its pretty simple. The 04 Pistons held nearly the entire Pacers team under .400% shooting in the prior series without a ball hogging guard. With that knowledge why would anyone believe that it was in fact Kobe who was responsible for the inefficiency of every other Laker getting any legitimate playing time the following playoff series?

The complete lack of common sense related to the discussion of that series never fails to amuse me. Shaq averaged 43% from the FT line in the playoffs. The Pistons sent him to the line instead of giving up a shot attempt every chance they could. Beyond that they are going to make passing the ball into him as difficult as possible and guess what sometimes just sometimes somebody else is going to have to take a shot at the basket because Shaq being the only offensive scoring option is only possible in video games.

Kobe never faced a defense as soft as 91 Lakers in the Finals. To put up better numbers than Jordan against an elite defense like the 04 Pistons he would have to be 2-3 times the player Jordan was. As great as Kobe is that he is not that good. :confusedshrug:


So, in this post you're basically admitting your boy got shut down defensively, and couldn't rise to the occasion once Shaq was taken out of the equation. Well, no sh!t, everybody already knew that son. But your boy's shot selection definitely didn't help matters, being that he was option number 2 and all, at the time.

I have that series on tape, and your boy was searching high and low to finally have his "Glory Moment" in the NBA Finals, but it backfired miserably, kinda like the way you try and tear down MJ, and get swatted upside the head with facts over and over, year after year.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So, in this post you're basically admitting your boy got shut down defensively, and couldn't rise to the occasion once Shaq was taken out of the equation. Well, no sh!t, everybody already knew that son. But your boy's shot selection definitely didn't help matters, being that he was option number 2 and all, at the time.

I have that series on tape, and your boy was searching high and low to finally have his "Glory Moment" in the NBA Finals, but it backfired miserably, kinda like the way you try and tear down MJ, and get swatted upside the head with facts over and over, year after year.

The point is Kobe could take more shots than Shaq for the simple reason he was not available for most shot attempts. As inefficient as Kobe he was the 2nd most efficient Laker. Big men are not available to score every single possession they are on the court. Even if Shaq averaged 40 points per game the Lakers are going to need 40-60 pts more and among the remaining possibilities Kobe shooting was the best option. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're right. MJ faced EVERY defense Kobe faced, and more. Zones, traps, doubles, triples, off the ball doubles, box and ones, everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE) - as well as far tougher defense / perimeter handchecking allowed under the rules. Today the rules are geared toward making perimeter scoring easier. That's why Phil Jackson in 06 said that "Michael would average 45 a night under these rules." So have Drexler and Dumars.

It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

[Calabis]

Its pretty simple. The 04 Pistons held nearly the entire Pacers team under .400% shooting in the prior series without a ball hogging guard. With that knowledge why would anyone believe that it was in fact Kobe who was responsible for the inefficiency of every other Laker getting any legitimate playing time the following playoff series?

The complete lack of common sense related to the discussion of that series never fails to amuse me. Shaq averaged 43% from the FT line in the playoffs. The Pistons sent him to the line instead of giving up a shot attempt every chance they could. Beyond that they are going to make passing the ball into him as difficult as possible and guess what sometimes just sometimes somebody else is going to have to take a shot at the basket because Shaq being the only offensive scoring option is only possible in video games.

Kobe never faced a defense as soft as 91 Lakers in the Finals. To put up better numbers than Jordan against an elite defense like the 04 Pistons he would have to be 2-3 times the player Jordan was. As great as Kobe is that he is not that good. :confusedshrug:

So your whole basis for the 2004 Finals, is this juggernaut defense.....

Let's look at the shooting percentage for each team

Lakers: 41% Pistons: 42%, so its not like there was a huge difference in team shooting percentage...so Lakers defense was juggernaut too:rolleyes: . As good as you say your hero is, GOAT:rolleyes: 38% is inexcusable and watching him freeze out Shaq and his teammates, was what 90% of people and Phil Jackson, saw in that series....I guess you along with the other 10%(Kobefans), just never run out of bs excuses....by the way what injury was it this time that hampered Kobe?

Heres the truth....Pistons had trouble stopping Shaq the majority of series. On 16 FGA per game, he shot 63% and avg 26ppg........the best defense Shaq saw, was his own teammate who was jacking up 22 FGA per game on 38% shooting(let's not bring up the last two games), and besides one game in the series, was horrible.

the sad part is, its you who lacks common sense, because you are the only one sitting here trying to justify Kobe's play, because of physical defense..:confusedshrug: ..... yes the same/similar type defense Jordan faced, with bumping and chucking. But yet somehoe Kobe would do better in that era:roll: yeah ok!

[guy]

Kobe never faced a defense as soft as 91 Lakers in the Finals. To put up better numbers than Jordan against an elite defense like the 04 Pistons he would have to be 2-3 times the player Jordan was. As great as Kobe is that he is not that good. :confusedshrug:

Whatever the case, not like Kobe faced the 04 Pistons in all of the 200+ playoff games he's played in. Yet, he's never ever came close to those numbers. He's never scored that much on that type of efficiency and he's never even came close to those assists, this is despite overall having much better offensive teammates that he can get assists from and who can take attention away from him. And Jordan had those numbers IN THE SAME SERIES, when Kobe hasn't even had either once :oldlol: Why do you continue to argue this?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So your whole basis for the 2004 Finals, is this juggernaut defense.....

Let's look at the shooting percentage for each team

Lakers: 41% Pistons: 42%, so its not like there was a huge difference in team shooting percentage...so Lakers defense was juggernaut too:rolleyes: . As good as you say your hero is, GOAT:rolleyes: 38% is inexcusable and watching him freeze out Shaq and his teammates, was what 90% of people and Phil Jackson, saw in that series....I guess you along with the other 10%(Kobefans), just never run out of bs excuses....by the way what injury was it this time that hampered Kobe?

Heres the truth....Pistons had trouble stopping Shaq the majority of series. On 16 FGA per game, he shot 63% and avg 26ppg........the best defense Shaq saw, was his own teammate who was jacking up 22 FGA per game on 38% shooting(let's not bring up the last two games), and besides one game in the series, was horrible.

the sad part is, its you who lacks common sense, because you are the only one sitting here trying to justify Kobe's play, because of physical defense..:confusedshrug: ..... yes the same/similar type defense Jordan faced, with bumping and chucking. But yet somehoe Kobe would do better in that era:roll: yeah ok!

:biggums:

Once again I will ask. How many shot attempts and free throw attempts should Shaq have received? All of them? Its completely reasonable for Kobe to shoot more than Shaq because Kobe and Shaq don't have a lot of overlapping scoring opportunities. Kobe wasn't in the post pushing out Shaq like he was Andrew Bynum's impact on Pau Gasol he was trying to score against one of the greatest defenses of all time when the scoring opportunity down low was not available.

[Derivative]

It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

wasnt MJ alrdy 35 years old that season? how about choosing a year in his prime

[Yao Ming's Foot]

wasnt MJ alrdy 35 years old that season? how about choosing a year in his prime

He was 29 vs the Knicks. :confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was 29 vs the Knicks. :confusedshrug:

30, and with a sprained wrist.

[Nevaeh]

He was 29 vs the Knicks. :confusedshrug:

Did the Knicks win that series, like the 04 Pistons won theirs?:confusedshrug:

[Calabis]

It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

:roll:

This dude still stuck on his D Ratings, its almost become comical:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did the Knicks win that series, like the 04 Pistons won theirs?:confusedshrug:

Nope the Bulls won in 6

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306040CHI.html

Jordan was 8 for 24. (33%)
Tbe rest of his team was 25 for 46 (54%)

[Nevaeh]

Nope the Bulls won in 6

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306040CHI.html

Jordan was 8 for 24. (33%)
Tbe rest of his team was 25 for 46 (54%)

So the team Leader had a bad game I see. I didn't think that was even possible in the NBA.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So the team Leader had a bad game I see. I didn't think that was even possible in the NBA.

If that was a bad game, what would you consider Game 3?

Jordan 3 for 18 16.7%
His amazing teammates 28 for 47 59.6%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199305290CHI.html

[noob cake]

I don't get why Kobestans always start an argument in any Jordan or Kobe or ranking related threads when the GOAT, by definition, is better than Kobe at everything.

/Fact

[bwink23]

If that was a bad game, what would you consider Game 3?

Jordan 3 for 18 16.7%
His amazing teammates 28 for 47 59.6%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199305290CHI.html


Didn't Jordan almost average a triple double in his bad shooting games in that series??

Also, let's not pretend that Knicks defense wasn't absolutely brutal. Kobe has NEVER faced a physically brutal defense like the Knicks in his entire career.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Didn't Jordan almost average a triple double in his bad shooting games in that series??

Also, let's not pretend that Knicks defense wasn't absolutely brutal. Kobe has NEVER faced a physically brutal defense like the Knicks in his entire career.

That didn't stop the Bulls #2, #3 and #4 scorers from averaging over 50%. :confusedshrug:

[Nevaeh]

If that was a bad game, what would you consider Game 3?

Jordan 3 for 18 16.7%
His amazing teammates 28 for 47 59.6%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199305290CHI.html

Yikes!! With those numbers, Jordan must have REALLY sucked when he made to the Finals that year.

[bwink23]

It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png


Jordan as an old ass man dropped 2 40+ point games against the #1 defense Nets in 2002 and 2003.

AND???

[Leviathon1121]

IS everyone loving my Kobe yet?

Got to hand it to him, he is basically the lone troll who has stuck around since Kobe choked.

[Nevaeh]

Got to hand it to him, he is basically the lone troll who has stuck around since Kobe choked.

Pretty much. Dammit, Kobe's gonna be better than Jordan somehow. Even if it takes picking a few bad games out of 100s to do it!!
:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan as an old ass man dropped 2 40+ point games against the #1 defense Nets in 2002 and 2003.

AND???

Averaged with his other games...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200201160NJN.html

4-14 10 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200301290NJN.html

4-16 8 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200212130NJN.html

5-20 12 points

:confusedshrug:

[Nevaeh]

Averaged with his other games...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200201160NJN.html

4-14 10 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200301290NJN.html

4-16 8 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200212130NJN.html

5-20 12 points

:confusedshrug:

Dude, what was your 33 year old hero's FG% for the entire season of 2012 again? Don't really think you're in a position to knit pick games here and there to try and prove a point. Especially in a Thread dealing with the 91 NBA Finals. You're begging for it, with this current approach you're taking.

[Calabis]

:biggums:

Once again I will ask. How many shot attempts and free throw attempts should Shaq have received? All of them? Its completely reasonable for Kobe to shoot more than Shaq because Kobe and Shaq don't have a lot of overlapping scoring opportunities. Kobe wasn't in the post pushing out Shaq like he was Andrew Bynum's impact on Pau Gasol he was trying to score against one of the greatest defenses of all time when the scoring opportunity down low was not available.

How about more than the guy shooting 38% and screwing up..:confusedshrug:

Yes, it is fine that Kobe shoots more than Shaq, but when your ass is off, and I have a dominant big man going 16-21, no way should I be going 8-25...its called realizing whos having the better game and letting them get touches until someone stops them...yes that juggernaut defense that held Shaq to 76% from the field.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude, what was your 33 year old hero's FG% for the entire season of 2012 again? Don't really think you're in a position to knit pick games here and there to try and prove a point. Especially in a Thread dealing with the 91 NBA Finals. You're begging for it, with this current approach you're taking.

Its not about cherry picking games here and there. Its about showing Jordan consistently not matching his video game numbers once he faced teams with similar defensive ratings that Kobe faced in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

btwink cherry picked a couple of games against the Nets so I included the other games.

[bwink23]

Averaged with his other games...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200201160NJN.html

4-14 10 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200301290NJN.html

4-16 8 points



http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200212130NJN.html

5-20 12 points

:confusedshrug:



He had games similar to those at that age against SHITTY defenses as well....:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How about more than the guy shooting 38% and screwing up..:confusedshrug:

Yes, it is fine that Kobe shoots more than Shaq, but when your ass is off, and I have a dominant big man going 16-21, no way should I be going 8-25...its called realizing whos having the better game and letting them get touches until someone stops them...yes that juggernaut defense that held Shaq to 76% from the field.

Do you understand that you can't simply force shots on big men? Every single defense knows that shots from the post are the best. They defend based on that. Shaq's peak shot attempts for that entire season was 23. :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Defensive rating.

2003 Washington Wizards defense >> 1991 Chicago Bulls defense ??

NO


END OF THAT DISCUSSION

[bwink23]

Do you understand that you can't simply force shots on big men? Every single defense knows that shots from the post are the best. They defend based on that. Shaq's peak shot attempts for that entire season was 23. :confusedshrug:


Offensive rating in 2002 = 104.5

Offensive rating in 1989 = 107.8

Offenses were better in 1989...the numbers say so....:confusedshrug:

[Calabis]

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/measuring-the-quality-of-basketball-in-the-nba-part2-adjusting-for-pace/

Look at charts, look at pace, look at what year it was the lowest....yup YAO MING's favorite defensive era.....notice how all those years with slowed down pace resulted in higher defensive ratings and lower player productivity.....:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

How many times have you been destroyed on this topic? :oldlol:

Remember that 2010 Celtics defense? The one that averaged a 103.8 defensive rating and held your boy to .408% shooting? Well, Jordan faced MANY defenses better than the 2010 Celts.

1996 Knicks: 103.5 DRtg / Jordan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199605050CHI.html
1997 Hawks: 102.3 DRtg / Jordan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/1997.html
1998 Pacers: 101.6 DRtg / Jordan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805170CHI.html

...And played better. :pimp:

[tpols]

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/measuring-the-quality-of-basketball-in-the-nba-part2-adjusting-for-pace/

Look at charts, look at pace, look at what year it was the lowest....yup YAO MING's favorite defensive era.....notice how all those years with slowed down pace resulted in higher defensive ratings and lower player productivity.....:confusedshrug:
Wouldnt that make sense? Less opportunities in transition and semi-transition and more opportunities in dead on 5v5 halfcourt sets would make it harder to score and easier to defend right? Or is there something Im missing with this argument?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/measuring-the-quality-of-basketball-in-the-nba-part2-adjusting-for-pace/

Look at charts, look at pace, look at what year it was the lowest....yup YAO MING's favorite defensive era.....notice how all those years with slowed down pace resulted in higher defensive ratings and lower player productivity.....:confusedshrug:

Read this a couple days ago. B-b-but, the 2003 Wizards had a better defensive rating than the 1991 Bulls!!!11 :lol

[bwink23]

Read this a couple days ago. B-b-but, the 2003 Wizards had a better defensive rating than the 1991 Bulls. :lol


Sometimes you have to just accept common sense you know??

:lol :lol

[Nevaeh]

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/measuring-the-quality-of-basketball-in-the-nba-part2-adjusting-for-pace/

Look at charts, look at pace, look at what year it was the lowest....yup YAO MING's favorite defensive era.....notice how all those years with slowed down pace resulted in higher defensive ratings and lower player productivity.....:confusedshrug:

Was there an increase in 3-point shooting as well Calabis? You know, the lowest percentage shot you can take in basketball? :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Offenses were better in the late 80's to combat the great defenses...as they say, great defense....better offense.

The early 2000's was a transition period for young and inexperienced talent. The team offenses weren't as polished and consistent.

80's offense >>>>>>>>>>> early 2000's offense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's amazing how many great guards "choked" against the 04 Pistons.

In the 1st round all nba 3rd teamer

Michael Redd shot 41% from the field and 30% from 3pt land.

In the 2nd round all star, all nba 1st teamer and future HOFer

Jason Kidd shot 28% from the field and 15% from 3pt land

In the conference Finals future HOfer

Reggie Miller shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3pt land

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Was there an increase in 3-point shooting as well Calabis? You know, the lowest percentage shot you can take in basketball? :confusedshrug:

Time and time again, you will see players spot up or run out to the 3-point line...even when a open 20-foot J would present itself. The league is 3-point happy.

[Calabis]

Wouldnt that make sense? Less opportunities in transition and semi-transition and more opportunities in dead on 5v5 halfcourt sets would make it harder to score and easier to defend right? Or is there something Im missing with this argument?

Yes, to me and you and everyone else, but try telling him that, dude has been at it for a year.

[bwink23]

It's amazing how many great guards "choked" against the 04 Pistons.

In the 1st round all nba 3rd teamer

Michael Redd shot 41% from the field and 30% from 3pt land.

In the 2nd round all star, all nba 1st teamer and future HOFer

Jason Kidd shot 28% from the field and 15% from 3pt land

In the conference Finals future HOfer

Reggie Miller shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3pt land

:confusedshrug:


You're right, Kobe is just another great guard and not on Jordan's level....:confusedshrug:

[Leviathon1121]

It's amazing how many great guards "choked" against the 04 Pistons.

In the 1st round all nba 3rd teamer

Michael Redd shot 41% from the field and 30% from 3pt land.

In the 2nd round all star, all nba 1st teamer and future HOFer

Jason Kidd shot 28% from the field and 15% from 3pt land

In the conference Finals future HOfer

Reggie Miller shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3pt land

:confusedshrug:

So Kobe is no better then Michael Redd, Jason Kidd, or an ancient Reggie Miller, thank you for pointing that out, I mean, that is what the numbers say right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Defensive rating.

2003 Washington Wizards defense >> 1991 Chicago Bulls defense ??

NO


END OF THAT DISCUSSION


Offensive rating in 2002 = 104.5

Offensive rating in 1989 = 107.8

Offenses were better in 1989...the numbers say so....:confusedshrug:

No, bwink, that's not fair! You're not supposed to beat him at his own game. :oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

Offenses were better in the late 80's to combat the great defenses...as they say, great defense....better offense.

The early 2000's was a transition period for young and experienced talent. The team offenses weren't as polished and consistent.

80's offense >>>>>>>>>>> early 2000's offense.

this.

Extra pass was always made to pick up 1 assist for every FG made.

Team moved the ball around a lot.

players moved a lot better to get to open spot.

nothing like today & 2000 offense.

[Nevaeh]

It's amazing how many great guards "choked" against the 04 Pistons.

In the 1st round all nba 3rd teamer

Michael Redd shot 41% from the field and 30% from 3pt land.

In the 2nd round all star, all nba 1st teamer and future HOFer

Jason Kidd shot 28% from the field and 15% from 3pt land

In the conference Finals future HOfer

Reggie Miller shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3pt land

:confusedshrug:

Damn, Rip Hamilton wasn't nothing to f@ck with, back in those days. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So Kobe is no better then Michael Redd, Jason Kidd, or an ancient Reggie Miller, thank you for pointing that out, I mean, that is what the numbers say right?

Yep his worst playoff series of all time was comparable to the same effort of two HOF guards, two all league guards and Michael Jordan not facing his usual playoff creampuffs.

[bwink23]

Yep his worst playoff series of all time was comparable to the same effort of two HOF guards, an all league guard and Michael Jordan not facing his usual playoff creampuffs.


what about the 2000 NBA Finals??? :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Offenses were better in the late 80's to combat the great defenses...as they say, great defense....better offense.

The early 2000's was a transition period for young and inexperienced talent. The team offenses weren't as polished and consistent.

80's offense >>>>>>>>>>> early 2000's offense.
Whiich is why I tried to get mings foot to see that you cant compare statistics across eras like that. The game changes so much.

[97 bulls]

No, bwink, that's not fair! You're not supposed to beat him at his own game. :oldlol:
Yep, that was a great post from bwink

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Whiich is why I tried to get mings foot to see that you cant compare statistics across eras like that. The game changes so much.

Isnt that how Kobe was brought up into this thread.? :oldlol:

You guys always come to the same conclusion. Its unfair to compare defensive statistics across era. If that's true why would it be fair to compare offensive statistics across eras?

Do you think Mark Mcgwire fans get mad when Yankees fans point out Babe Ruth played in an era of baseball where HRs and scoring were much harder to come by?

[Calabis]

It's amazing how many great guards "choked" against the 04 Pistons.

In the 1st round all nba 3rd teamer

Michael Redd shot 41% from the field and 30% from 3pt land.
Didn't have Shaq sucking in defenses and providing him the same type of oppotunities

In the 2nd round all star, all nba 1st teamer and future HOFer

Jason Kidd shot 28% from the field and 15% from 3pt land
Was never a great scorer and a so so shooter

In the conference Finals future HOfer

Reggie Miller shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3pt land
Old as hell
:confusedshrug:

Other than that, the Pistons were a damn good defense, but since you claim your hero is GOAT, 38% is a joke....

[bwink23]

Yep his worst playoff series of all time was comparable to the same effort of two HOF guards, two all league guards and Michael Jordan not facing his usual playoff creampuffs.


Average defensive rating in 1989 = 107.8

Average defensive rating in 2008 = 107.5

That's NEGLIGIBLE...

So let's compare Kobe and MJ's output during those seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1989&p2=bryanko01&y2=2008


NOW WHAT?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Offenses were better in the late 80's to combat the great defenses...as they say, great defense....better offense.

The early 2000's was a transition period for young and inexperienced talent. The team offenses weren't as polished and consistent.

80's offense >>>>>>>>>>> early 2000's offense.

Young and inexperienced players coming from high school especially are much better offensive players than defensive players when they first come into the league. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Average defensive rating in 1989 = 107.8

Average defensive rating in 2008 = 107.5

That's NEGLIGIBLE...

So let's compare Kobe and MJ's output during those seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1989&p2=bryanko01&y2=2008


NOW WHAT?

In 2008 Kobe faced the 98.9 DEF Rated Boston Celtics in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Young and inexperienced players coming from high school especially are much better offensive players than defensive players when they first come into the league. :confusedshrug:


NO.....most players are inferior offensively AND defensively when they first come in...check Kobe and Lebron's rookie seasons...:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Average defensive rating in 1989 = 107.8

Average defensive rating in 2008 = 107.5

That's NEGLIGIBLE...

So let's compare Kobe and MJ's output during those seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1989&p2=bryanko01&y2=2008


NOW WHAT?

:roll: :applause:

[bwink23]

In 2008 Kobe faced the 98.9 DEF Rated Boston Celtics in the Finals. :confusedshrug:


What was their offensive rating ??? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

NO.....most players are inferior offensively AND defensively when they first come in...check Kobe and Lebron's rookie seasons...:facepalm

Are you kidding me? They were better on offense than defense and its not even close.

[bwink23]

Are you kidding me? They were better on offense than defense and its not even close.


Sure...but they weren't offensively contributing at a high level either. :confusedshrug:

Or did the great defenses stop them?? :lol

[tmacattack33]

NO.....most players are inferior offensively AND defensively when they first come in...check Kobe and Lebron's rookie seasons...:facepalm

Wtf? Please do not lump in Lebron when talking about Kobe's immature early years.

Lebron came in NBA ready. He was ahead of the curve. He was a 20 and 6 player his first year. And it wasn't empty either...he helped his team improve a good amount.

[bwink23]

Wtf? Please do not lump in Lebron when talking about Kobe's bad early years.

Lebron came in beasting. He was ahead of the curve.


He wasn't "beasting" his rookie year....he has come leaps and bounds.

[Calabis]

In 2008 Kobe faced the 98.9 DEF Rated Boston Celtics in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

And right back to the defensive rating thing:facepalm

[97 bulls]

Isnt that how Kobe was brought up into this thread.? :oldlol:

You guys always come to the same conclusion. Its unfair to compare defensive statistics across era. If that's true why would it be fair to compare offensive statistics across eras?

Do you think Mark Mcgwire fans get mad when Yankees fans point out Babe Ruth played in an era of baseball where HRs and scoring were much harder to come by?

We dont do that. We take into consideration the rule changes for example. The lack of great defensive bigs. And the fact that frankly, kobes had a low bball IQ his whole career. Thats why his FG% is so low. he take terrible shots.

To be honest, whenever i see you post all you do is post team defensive ratings. And youve been owned evey single time. Move on.

[bwink23]

And right back to the defensive rating thing:facepalm


Check the Celtics offensive rating....:facepalm :facepalm

They would get raped by the great offensive ratings of the late 80's.....:lol :lol

:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Sure...but they weren't offensively contributing at a high level either. :confusedshrug:

Or did the great defenses stop them?? :lol

The point is if you are telling me defenses improved because more high schoolers joined the league and their offensive skills had not yet developed you are completely ignoring the fact those same high schoolers have to play defense and for however underdeveloped their offensive fundamentals may be their defensive fundamentals would be even worse. At best it would be a wash.

Come up with a different theory.

[Calabis]

Are you kidding me? They were better on offense than defense and its not even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgfx-bXsg4

Yeah your right, I have seen vast improvements in Kobes defense, but his offense is still pretty similar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MThR2YyW7j8

:roll:

[bwink23]

The point is if you are telling me defenses improved because more high schoolers joined the league and their offensive skills had not yet developed you are completely ignoring the fact those same high schoolers have to play defense and for however underdeveloped their offensive fundamentals may be their defensive fundamentals would be even worse. At best it would be a wash.

Come up with a different theory.


The same theory that spawned the league to institute a rule that keeps players from coming into the league right out of high school ??? :lol :lol

What's the age 19 right now? Weren't they wanting to make it 20 ?? :lol :lol


Get yourself a different line of work...


late 80's offensive ratings >>>>> early 2000's offensive ratings

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We dont do that. We take into consideration the rule changes for example. The lack of great defensive bigs. And the fact that frankly, kobes had a low bball IQ his whole career. Thats why his FG% is so low. he take terrible shots.

To be honest, whenever i see you post all you do is post team defensive ratings. And youve been owned evey single time. Move on.

:oldlol:

Link?

The only ownage I have seen is the depths people will go to misunderstand what defensive rating measures in order to delude their opinion to match the mythology.

[bwink23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgfx-bXsg4

Yeah your right, I have seen vast improvements in Kobes defense, but his offense is still pretty similar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MThR2YyW7j8

:roll:


You know, that shot was FORCED by the great defenses, not at all by Kobe running right to the ball, sandwiching himself between 2 "great" defenders.


:lol :lol :lol

[KingBeasley08]

He's the best ever. Straight up and simple. No explanation needed

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The same theory that spawned the league to institute a rule that keeps players from coming into the league right out of high school ??? :lol :lol

What's the age 19 right now? Weren't they wanting to make it 20 ?? :lol :lol


Get yourself a different line of work...


late 80's offensive ratings >>>>> early 2000's offensive ratings

I agree offensive numbers of the late 80s are inflated compared to early 2000 offensive numbers.

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

I agree offensive numbers of the late 80s are inflated compared to early 2000 offensive numbers.

:confusedshrug:


Yes, the great offenses present were sending a message to the great defenses...that it was gonna be a war.

:rockon:

[97 bulls]

The point is if you are telling me defenses improved because more high schoolers joined the league and their offensive skills had not yet developed you are completely ignoring the fact those same high schoolers have to play defense and for however underdeveloped their offensive fundamentals may be their defensive fundamentals would be even worse. At best it would be a wash.

Come up with a different theory.
How many different "theories" do you need?

Bwink saying that the offenese were better back in the day using you stats against you?

How bout me saying you cant compare defenses across eras like that?

Or when people show that you must think teams like the milwaukee bucks were better defensively than the bad boy pistons?

These are just a few examples.

[bwink23]

I agree offensive numbers of the late 80s are inflated compared to early 2000 offensive numbers.

:confusedshrug:


Is it "mythology" that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards??

Yes or No

[Leviathon1121]

I agree offensive numbers of the late 80s are inflated compared to early 2000 offensive numbers.

:confusedshrug:

You have it backwards, 2000's offensive numbers are deflated by lack of quality big men and lack of fundamentals. Not to mention reliance on the 3 point shot.

Oh, I almost forgot.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes, the great offenses present were sending a message to the great defenses...that it was gonna be a war.

:rockon:

Amazing how that worked out.

Great offenses vs great defenses = historically great offensive statistics :roll: .

[eliteballer]

Bulls had much better defense with Jordan and Pippen doubling Magic(though they couldnt guard him 1 on 1) while two of Lakers best scoring options(worthy and scott) were injured.

[bwink23]

Amazing how that worked out.

Great offenses vs great defenses = historically great offensive statistics :roll: .


Washington Wizards a BETTER defensive team than the 1991 Chicago Bulls.

Yes or No Foot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You have it backwards, 2000's offensive numbers are deflated by lack of quality big men and lack of fundamentals. Not to mention reliance on the 3 point shot.

Oh, I almost forgot.

:confusedshrug:

1) Look at the average 3 pt shot percentage for the league

2) Multiple that number by 3

3) Realize that number represents the points per possession for every 3 pt shot attempt

4) Compare that number to the league average Def Rating (points allowed per 100 possessions)

5.) Feel stupid

[eliteballer]

Washington Wizards a BETTER defensive team than the 1991 Chicago Bulls.

Yes or No Foot.

If you're going to use that argument then you cant rely on comparing stats across eras ie. Jordan averaged 30+ on 50+ shooting so that is why he is better

[tpols]

Yes, the great offenses present were sending a message to the great defenses...that it was gonna be a war.

:rockon:
:roll: What the fvck?

[KingBeasley08]

wow Yao Ming is getting drilled in this thread :lol

[KingBeasley08]

If you're going to use that argument then you cant rely on comparing stats across eras ie. Jordan averaged 30+ on 50+ shooting so that is why he is better
he isnt using that logic. yao ming was using that logic. bwink is just showing how stupid it is

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Washington Wizards a BETTER defensive team than the 1991 Chicago Bulls.

Yes or No Foot.

You still don't even understand the simple idea behind defensive rating.

I use it to measure the performance of a player against that team in that season.

I don't use it to mean one team is better defensively than the other.

It means the average team that the team faced during the year had a certain level of offensive efficiency on the year.

[tpols]

he isnt using that logic. yao ming was using that logic. bwink is just showing how stupid it is
Sure he is.. Hell bring up Jordan vs Kobe STATS all day long and then when a poster uses a defensive STAT, all of a sudden it cant be used because the eras were different.

Well if the eras are different and stats cant be smoothly translated fro,m one to another, why are they comparing the two player's individual stats to begin with?

[bwink23]

You still don't even understand the simple idea behind defensive rating.

I use it to measure the performance of a player against that team in that season.

I don't use it to mean one team is better defensively than the other.

It means the average team that the team faced during the year had a certain level of offensive efficiency on the year.


1991 Chicago Bulls vs. 2003 Washington Wizards..

Who you got defensively??


:coleman:

[bwink23]

Sure he is.. Hell bring up Jordan vs Kobe STATS all day long and then when a poster uses a defensive STAT, all of a sudden it cant be used because the eras were different.

Well if the eras are different and stats cant be smoothly translated fro,m one to another, why are they comparing the two player's individual stats to begin with?


How about we don't compare stats at all....across the NBA community and the WORLD...Jordan is recognized as the greatest player to ever play..


NOW WHAT?

[bwink23]

Sure he is.. Hell bring up Jordan vs Kobe STATS all day long and then when a poster uses a defensive STAT, all of a sudden it cant be used because the eras were different.

Well if the eras are different and stats cant be smoothly translated fro,m one to another, why are they comparing the two player's individual stats to begin with?


Look at the Lebron James in today's game. Jordan-like efficiency while scoring 28 a game over the last several years.

Explain.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

1991 Chicago Bulls vs. 2003 Washington Wizards..

Who you got defensively??


:coleman:

Are you asking me which team successfully prevented their opposition from scoring on a per possession basis the best?

[bwink23]

Are you asking me which team successfully prevented their opposition from scoring on a per possession basis the best?


Who is the better defensive team.

[tpols]

Look at the Lebron James in today's game. Jordan-like efficiency while scoring 28 a game over the last several years.

Explain.
Lebron is an all time great.:confusedshrug: Plus hes a noticeable statpadder when it comes to FG both with withholding last second shots/passing them off, and looking for every fast break dunk possible.. which is why he wasnt scoring nearly as efficiently in the playoffs as in the regular season.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Look at the Lebron James in today's game. Jordan-like efficiency while scoring 28 a game over the last several years.

Explain.

Struggles against elite defenses, just like everybody else :confusedshrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_finals.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_ECS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010_ECS.html

[bwink23]

Lebron is an all time great.:confusedshrug: Plus hes a noticeable statpadder when it comes to FG both with withholding last second shots/passing them off, and looking for every fast break dunk possible.. which is why he wasnt scoring nearly as efficiently in the playoffs as in the regular season.

:facepalm

great defense stops that or no??

[bwink23]

Struggles against elite defenses, just like everybody else :confusedshrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_finals.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008_ECS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010_ECS.html


The NBA since the rule changes in 2005 is playing at comparable defensive rating averages to that of the late 80's...the only thing that changed in Kobe's offensive game is his volume.

NOW WHAT?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who is the better defensive team.

The Bulls were a pretty good defensive team of an offensive inflated era and the Wizards were a below average defensive team in a offensive deflated era.

:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

:facepalm

great defense stops that or no??
What? Lebron has been shut down by 'great' defenses time after time.. he destroys everyone in the regular season when defenses arent as tight, and then gets locked down in the playoffs.

07 Spurs
08 Celtics
09... no argument here he beasted.
10 Celtics
11 Mavs

Hes had trouble with elite playoff defenses his whole career.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The NBA since the rule changes in 2005 is playing at comparable defensive rating averages to that of the late 80's...the only thing that changed in Kobe's offensive game is his volume.

NOW WHAT?

His peak individual offensive rating was from 2006-2009 and in the Finals he faced great defensive team not league average defensive teams. :confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

The Bulls were a pretty good defensive team of an offensive inflated era and the Wizards were a below average defensive team in a offensive deflated era.

:confusedshrug:


Answer the question FOOT....you know the answer you WANT to say will only be an admission of utter basketball STUPIDITY..:rockon:

[bwink23]

His peak individual offensive rating was from 2006-2009 and in the Finals he faced great defensive team not league average defensive teams. :confusedshrug:


But his offense remained constant either when he was playing against pre-rule change defense vs. post-rule change defense??


:coleman:

[bwink23]

His peak individual offensive rating was from 2006-2009 and in the Finals he faced great defensive team not league average defensive teams. :confusedshrug:

Average league defensive ratings over the last 5 years:

107.5
108.3
107.6
107.3

This year...104.6 :confusedshrug:

Why 104.6 ?? Offenses suck...NO training camp, limited practices and pre-season....tons of games packed in a short time frame, fatigue.

You think that's due to great defense?? :lol :lol :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Answer the question FOOT....you know the answer you WANT to say will only be an admission of utter basketball STUPIDITY..:rockon:

Do you understand the idea that hitting multiple HRs off on all star during the steroid era of baseball can be less impressive than hitting multiple HRs off of an average pitcher during the dead ball era of baseball?

[bwink23]

Do you understand the idea that hitting multiple HRs off on all star during the steroid era of baseball can be less impressive than hitting multiple HRs off of an average pitcher during the dead ball era of baseball?


You need stops Foot....you need defensive pressure...who you got??

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You need stops Foot....you need defensive pressure...who you got??

Do you understand the idea that hitting multiple HRs off on all star during the steroid era of baseball can be less impressive than hitting multiple HRs off of an average pitcher during the dead ball era of baseball?

I can't answer your question if you dont understand this.

[Nevaeh]

The Bulls were a pretty good defensive team of an offensive inflated era and the Wizards were a below average defensive team in a offensive deflated era.

:confusedshrug:

Based on "Defense Rating" which was the better defensive team? Forget opposing team circumstances. Based strictly on your "formula", which was the better defensive team?
:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Based on "Defense Rating" which was the better defensive team? Forget opposing team circumstances. Based strictly on your "formula", which was the better defensive team?
:confusedshrug:

It's not my formula and doesn't measure which is better team. It measure how effective the average team was for that given year against that defense on a per possession basis.

[Nevaeh]

It's not my formula and doesn't measure which is better team. It measure how effective the average team was for that given year against that defense on a per possession basis.

Based on each team's "Defense Rating" (you know, the actual statistical number), which was the better defensive team?
:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's not my formula and doesn't measure which is better team. It measure how effective the average team was for that given year against that defense on a per possession basis.

Answer the question, dodger. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Based on each team's "Defense Rating" (you know, the actual statistical number), which was the better defensive team?
:confusedshrug:

:facepalm

[Nevaeh]

:facepalm
:confusedshrug:










That's how you do it right?





Basic "what's 2+2" type question, and you can't even answer it. OK, answer me this. How come Kobe's never averaged over 47% fg for a season, yet other perimeter players have done so during his era, while being the focal point of their teams, and facing the same defenses?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[StarJordan]

Because of Hail Jordan

[Calabis]

Bulls had much better defense with Jordan and Pippen doubling Magic(though they couldnt guard him 1 on 1) while two of Lakers best scoring options(worthy and scott) were injured.

Jordan injured his foot in Game 3, his toe swelled up so bad they had to cut his shoes to help with the pressure....so Worthy had a hurt ankle, he played didn't he?

[305Baller]

cause jordan goat

[97 bulls]

Jordan injured his foot in Game 3, his toe swelled up so bad they had to cut his shoes to help with the pressure....so Worthy had a hurt ankle, he played didn't he?
For some reason they just dont see this always seems to be overloooked by laker fans like him.

Its also amazing that they dont take into consideration isiah thomas badly sprained foot in 88, or mchales fractured foot in 87.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:confusedshrug:










That's how you do it right?





Basic "what's 2+2" type question, and you can't even answer it. OK, answer me this. How come Kobe's never averaged over 47% fg for a season, yet other perimeter players have done so during his era, while being the focal point of their teams, and facing the same defenses?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

Because Kobe shoots more threes than them. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Because Kobe shoots more threes than them. :confusedshrug:
No. Its because kobe SETTLES for too many threes as well as takes too many bad shots

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No. Its because kobe SETTLES for too many threes as well as takes too many bad shots

Another myth.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25985/dynamic-efficiency-the-nash-equilibrium-kobe-as-an-undershooter

If anything Kobe's shoots less than he should given the shot clock. He is simply tasked with making something about of nothing more than the average SG.

[97 bulls]

Another myth.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25985/dynamic-efficiency-the-nash-equilibrium-kobe-as-an-undershooter

If anything Kobe's shoots less than he should given the shot clock. He is simply tasked with making something about of nothing more than the average SG.
Lol are you serious? Kobes fg% has nothing to do with "unsershooting" or "overshooting". He takes too many bad shots plain and simple. Far too many of kobes shots come out of the offense, with him holding the ball, or going one on five.

[ralph_i_el]

just attribute it to the magical triangle of phil jackson

also double teams

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lol are you serious? Kobes fg% has nothing to do with "unsershooting" or "overshooting". He takes too many bad shots plain and simple. Far too many of kobes shots come out of the offense, with him holding the ball, or going one on five.

Let me guess Pau Gasol has great shot selection because he passes the ball to Kobe with 5 seconds left on the clock instead of taking a difficult shot.

Isn't it amazing how Kobe has been a major part of so many brilliant offensive teams in his career yet apparently has terrible shot selection.

Why is it that a Kobe centric offense has never been worse than 10th best in the league?

:oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Let me guess Pau Gasol has great shot selection because he passes the ball to Kobe with 5 seconds left on the clock instead of taking a difficult shot.

Isn't it amazing how Kobe has been a major part of so many brilliant offensive teams in his career yet apparently has terrible shot selection.

:oldlol:

his shot selection is only bad when he dosen't make them.:roll:

The problem is he takes so many difficult shots that people either hate on him for being inefficient or hype him for his huge scoring numbers.

the god honest truth is that he's shooting the inefficient shots that inevitably happen in basketball, so that his teammates don't have to. He's better at making those shots and so the offense is better because you see guys like Matt barnes taking less bad shots. Why bother taking a bad shot against good defense when you can let Kobe do it? And that makes the offense better.

[Nevaeh]

Another myth.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25985/dynamic-efficiency-the-nash-equilibrium-kobe-as-an-undershooter

If anything Kobe's shoots less than he should given the shot clock. He is simply tasked with making something about of nothing more than the average SG.

He led the league in FG attempts this year, shooting at a paltry 43% from the field.
:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He led the league in FG attempts this year, shooting at a paltry 43% from the field.
:confusedshrug:

That's what one should expect when you have Fisher, Artest and Blake as your supporting backcourt most of the year shooting about 38%. :confusedshrug:

I guess he should have magically forced more shots on Bynum and Gasol right? Just like the Lakers did when Kobe was injured... Does anybody remember their efficiency numbers during that stretch of games?

[Nevaeh]

That's what one should expect when you have Fisher, Artest and Blake as your supporting backcourt most of the year shooting about 38%. :confusedshrug:

I guess he should have magically forced more shots on Bynum and Gasol right? Just like the Lakers did when Kobe was injured... Does anybody remember their efficiency numbers during that stretch of games?

Did they win the games they played while Kobe was injured?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If Kobe ever had the shot selection of LeBron James (like refusing to put up a prayer at the end of the half and just letting the clock expire instead in the playoffs) I would stop being a fan.

[Nevaeh]

Let me guess Pau Gasol has great shot selection because he passes the ball to Kobe with 5 seconds left on the clock instead of taking a difficult shot.

Isn't it amazing how Kobe has been a major part of so many brilliant offensive teams in his career yet apparently has terrible shot selection.

Why is it that a Kobe centric offense has never been worse than 10th best in the league?

:oldlol:

What specific teams of his do you count as "Brilliant Offensive Teams"?
:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What specific teams of his do you count as "Brilliant Offensive Teams"?
:confusedshrug:

Pretty much all of them that made the Finals because the Lakers were never an elite defensive team.

Beyond that the fact that Kobe was turned the 4some of Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, Smush Parker and Devean George into a top 8 offense in 2006 speaks for itself.

[Nevaeh]

Pretty much all of them that made the Finals because the Lakers were never an elite defensive team.

Beyond that the fact that Kobe was turned the 4some of Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, Smush Parker and Devean George into a top 8 offense in 2006 speaks for itself.

So are you now saying that a team's "Offensive Rating" actually matters, even in the Finals? I thought it was a team's "Defense Rating" that determined greatness, according to you.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[Cali Syndicate]

Legendary.

[julizaver]

Because he wanted to prove that he is better than Magic. It is not because of the defence. To beat the man in his best department.
I watched the games - and the Lakers were already in the decline.

[julizaver]

Because he wanted to prove that he is better than Magic. It is not because of the defence. To beat the man in his best department.
I watched the games - and the Lakers were already in the decline.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Yao Ming's Foot getting absolutely raped in this thread. :oldlol: :oldlol: One of the worst posters on this site. I guess it's full damage control since his "gawd" choked away another playoff series. Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a supposed "clutch gawd" choke so miserably like Games 2 and 4 of the Thunder series that he single handedly cost his team games that should have been wins. :roll: :roll:


Zones, traps, doubles, triples, off the ball doubles, box and ones, everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE)

That video :bowdown: :bowdown: I think instead of actual replies, that video should be the only thing posted when trolls like Alphawolf, Yao Ming's Foot, Bladers, Iron Fist, Duece Bigalow, etc try and spout their bullsh*t.

[Glide2keva]

Yao Ming's Foot getting absolutely raped in this thread. :oldlol: :oldlol: One of the worst posters on this site. I guess it's full damage control since his "gawd" choked away another playoff series. Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a supposed "clutch gawd" choke so miserably like Games 2 and 4 of the Thunder series that he single handedly cost his team games that should have been wins. :roll: :roll:



That video :bowdown: :bowdown: I think instead of actual replies, that video should be the only thing posted when trolls like Alphawolf, Yao Ming's Foot, Bladers, Iron Fist, Duece Bigalow, etc try and spout their bullsh*t.
Who was the idiot talking in that video?

He sounded like alphawolf.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So are you now saying that a team's "Offensive Rating" actually matters, even in the Finals? I thought it was a team's "Defense Rating" that determined greatness, according to you.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

Yeah offensive rating measures how successful the team's offense was for the year , defensive rating measures how successful the team's defense was for the year.

It's not very complicated. Do you guys think acting obtuse is a brilliant debate strategy or something? :oldlol:

[01amberfirewv]

When your MJ a miss doesn't go into the books as a miss it goes in as a pass

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yao Ming's Toe Crust tries to obfuscate things by talking only about the elite defensive teams Kobe has faced, but doesn't want you to look at all the OTHER series he's played in, where his play was at a much lower level than Jordan's, and he much more inconsistent to boot (as he has been throughout his entire career, regular and postseason).

Let's compare the DRtg for some of MJ's playoff opponents from '88-'92 along with his averages in those series (in parentheses) versus some of Kobe's opponents from '06-'10 who had similar DRtg's:

'88 Cavs - 106.0 DRtg - (45.2 pts/5.4 reb/4.8 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/34.0 Game Score)
'89 Knicks - 107.5 DRtg - (35.7 pts/9.5 reb/8.3 ast/2.5 stl/1.3 blk/55% FG/31.8 Game Score)
'89 Cavs - 102.9 DRtg - (39.8 pts/5.8 reb/8.2 ast/3.0 stl/52% FG/30.9 Game Score)
'90 Bucks - 108.1 Drtg - (36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG/28.2 Game Score)
'90 Sixers - 108.4 DRtg - (43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG/35.4 Game Score)
'91 Sixers - 108.1 DRtg - (33.4 pts/8.0 reb/7.8 ast/1.8 stl/1.4 blk/49% FG/27.2 Game Score)
'91 Pistons - 104.6 DRtg (29.8 pts/5.3 reb/7.0 ast/2.3 stl/1.8 blk/54% FG/26.3 Game Score)
'91 Lakers - 105.0 DRtg (31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/29.4 Game Score)
'92 Blazers - 104.2 DRtg - (35.8 pts/4.8 reb/6.5 ast/1.7 stl/54% FG/25.8 Game Score)

Now, some of Kobe's playoff opponents from '06-'10 and his performance:

'06 Suns - 105.8 DRtg (27.8 pts/6.3 reb/5.1 ast/1.1 stl/50% FG/17.9 Game Score)
'07 Suns - 106.4 DRtg - (32.8 pts/5.2 reb/4.4 ast/1.0 stl/46% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'08 Nuggets - 106.3 DRtg - (33.5 pts/5.3 reb/6.3 ast/1.5 stl/1.5 blk/50% FG/25.2 Game Score)
'08 Jazz - 106.5 DRtg - (33.2 pts/7.0 reb/7.2 ast/.8 stl/49% FG/25.4 Game Score - note: aided by 16 FTA/gm for the series, an absurd number)
'09 Jazz - 107.3 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/5.6 ast/2.4 stl/47% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'09 Rockets - 104.0 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/3.7 ast/2.0 stl/1.3 blk/45% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'10 Thunder - 104.6 DRtg - (23.5 pts/4.0 reb/4.3 ast/1.3 stl/41% FG/12.9 Game Score)
'10 Jazz - 105.0 DRtg - (32.0 pts/3.8 reb/5.8 ast/52% FG/21.9 Game Score)

The difference is quite telling. And, contrary to what Yao Ming's Bunion may say, a difference of 1 point in DRtg (which translates to one more point allowed per 100 possessions - and most teams don't play nearly at a 100 possession pace) is completely insignificant. Yet the difference in Kobe and MJ's performance against similar defensive teams is quite stark. Gee, I wonder why that is... :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yao Ming's Toe Crust tries to obfuscate things by talking only about the elite defensive teams Kobe has faced, but doesn't want you to look at all the OTHER series he's played in, where his play was at a much lower level than Jordan's, and he much more inconsistent to boot (as he has been throughout his entire career, regular and postseason).

Let's compare the DRtg for some of MJ's playoff opponents from '88-'92 along with his averages in those series (in parentheses) versus some of Kobe's opponents from '06-'10 who had similar DRtg's:

'88 Cavs - 106.0 DRtg - (45.2 pts/5.4 reb/4.8 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/34.0 Game Score)
'89 Knicks - 107.5 DRtg - (35.7 pts/9.5 reb/8.3 ast/2.5 stl/1.3 blk/55% FG/31.8 Game Score)
'89 Cavs - 102.9 DRtg - (39.8 pts/5.8 reb/8.2 ast/3.0 stl/52% FG/30.9 Game Score)
'90 Bucks - 108.1 Drtg - (36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG/28.2 Game Score)
'90 Sixers - 108.4 DRtg - (43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG/35.4 Game Score)
'91 Sixers - 108.1 DRtg - (33.4 pts/8.0 reb/7.8 ast/1.8 stl/1.4 blk/49% FG/27.2 Game Score)
'91 Pistons - 104.6 DRtg (29.8 pts/5.3 reb/7.0 ast/2.3 stl/1.8 blk/54% FG/26.3 Game Score)
'91 Lakers - 105.0 DRtg (31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/29.4 Game Score)
'92 Blazers - 104.2 DRtg - (35.8 pts/4.8 reb/6.5 ast/1.7 stl/54% FG/25.8 Game Score)

Now, some of Kobe's playoff opponents from '06-'10 and his performance:

'06 Suns - 105.8 DRtg (27.8 pts/6.3 reb/5.1 ast/1.1 stl/50% FG/17.9 Game Score)
'07 Suns - 106.4 DRtg - (32.8 pts/5.2 reb/4.4 ast/1.0 stl/46% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'08 Nuggets - 106.3 DRtg - (33.5 pts/5.3 reb/6.3 ast/1.5 stl/1.5 blk/50% FG/25.2 Game Score)
'08 Jazz - 106.5 DRtg - (33.2 pts/7.0 reb/7.2 ast/.8 stl/49% FG/25.4 Game Score - note: aided by 16 FTA/gm for the series, an absurd number)
'09 Jazz - 107.3 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/5.6 ast/2.4 stl/47% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'09 Rockets - 104.0 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/3.7 ast/2.0 stl/1.3 blk/45% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'10 Thunder - 104.6 DRtg - (23.5 pts/4.0 reb/4.3 ast/1.3 stl/41% FG/12.9 Game Score)
'10 Jazz - 105.0 DRtg - (32.0 pts/3.8 reb/5.8 ast/52% FG/21.9 Game Score)

The difference is quite telling. And, contrary to what Yao Ming's Bunion may say, a difference of 1 point in DRtg (which translates to one more point allowed per 100 possessions - and most teams don't play nearly at a 100 possession pace) is completely insignificant. Yet the difference in Kobe and MJ's performance against similar defensive teams is quite stark. Gee, I wonder why that is... :oldlol:

I would hope you would be able to cherry pick more impressive series in between the 104-108 range. Jordan probably faced 3 times more playoff opponents in that range. I could do the same for the 102 and under range of playoff opponents. So whats more impressive putting up great numbers against teams that gave up great numbers all season long or doing so against teams that dominated defensively? We already know that Jordan can put up big numbers against weak defenses the question is would he have done it against the teams Kobe faced in the Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan 24-28 .... Kobe 26-30
:facepalm

Did you do that because 26-28 wasn't much of a difference at all?

'91 Sixers - 108.1 DRtg - (33.4 pts/8.0 reb/7.8 ast/1.8 stl/1.4 blk/49% FG/27.2 Game Score)
'91 Pistons - 104.6 DRtg (29.8 pts/5.3 reb/7.0 ast/2.3 stl/1.8 blk/54% FG/26.3 Game Score)
'91 Lakers - 105.0 DRtg (31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/29.4 Game Score)
'92 Blazers - 104.2 DRtg - (35.8 pts/4.8 reb/6.5 ast/1.7 stl/54% FG/25.8 Game Score)

vs

'07 Suns - 106.4 DRtg - (32.8 pts/5.2 reb/4.4 ast/1.0 stl/46% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'08 Nuggets - 106.3 DRtg - (33.5 pts/5.3 reb/6.3 ast/1.5 stl/1.5 blk/50% FG/25.2 Game Score)
'08 Jazz - 106.5 DRtg - (33.2 pts/7.0 reb/7.2 ast/.8 stl/49% FG/25.4 Game Score - note: aided by 16 FTA/gm for the series, an absurd number)

[guy]

Jordan 24-28 .... Kobe 26-30
:facepalm

Did you do that because 26-28 wasn't much of a difference at all?

'91 Sixers - 108.1 DRtg - (33.4 pts/8.0 reb/7.8 ast/1.8 stl/1.4 blk/49% FG/27.2 Game Score)
'91 Pistons - 104.6 DRtg (29.8 pts/5.3 reb/7.0 ast/2.3 stl/1.8 blk/54% FG/26.3 Game Score)
'91 Lakers - 105.0 DRtg (31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/29.4 Game Score)
'92 Blazers - 104.2 DRtg - (35.8 pts/4.8 reb/6.5 ast/1.7 stl/54% FG/25.8 Game Score)

vs

'07 Suns - 106.4 DRtg - (32.8 pts/5.2 reb/4.4 ast/1.0 stl/46% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'08 Nuggets - 106.3 DRtg - (33.5 pts/5.3 reb/6.3 ast/1.5 stl/1.5 blk/50% FG/25.2 Game Score)
'08 Jazz - 106.5 DRtg - (33.2 pts/7.0 reb/7.2 ast/.8 stl/49% FG/25.4 Game Score - note: aided by 16 FTA/gm for the series, an absurd number)

Umm, I think he did that cause 5 years is a much better sample size then 2 years. And even then, Jordan's numbers here are better, specifically with the assists and FG%.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Umm, I think he did that cause 5 years is a much better sample size then 2 years. And even then, Jordan's numbers here are better, specifically with the assists and FG%.

Them why not use 26-30 for both players? :confusedshrug:

[guy]

Them why not use 26-30 for both players? :confusedshrug:

What difference does it make? Replace that Cavs series with 31/5/5/49% vs. the Cavs in 93 and 41/9/6/51% vs. the Suns in 93? What are you trying to argue here? :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Because he's the GOAT:pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan 24-28 .... Kobe 26-30
:facepalm

Did you do that because 26-28 wasn't much of a difference at all?

LMAO @ the obfuscation. No, I did it because Kobe only had his own team from '06 onward you nimrod. Here are a couple from earlier in Kobe's career:

'02 Blazers - 104.0 DRtg (26.0/5.7 reb/5.0 ast/35.3% FG/17.2 Game Score)
'03 TWolves - 103.8 Drtg (31.8 pts/5.2 reb/6.7 ast/43% FG/22.2 Game Score)

Again...not that close. Try again.


Them why not use 26-30 for both players? :confusedshrug:

Err, Jordan was 26-28 in several of the series I posted, as was Kobe in many of them, seen below.

Jordan:

'90 Bucks - 108.1 Drtg - (36.8 pts/8.0 reb/7.0 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/54% FG/28.2 Game Score)
'90 Sixers - 108.4 DRtg - (43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/4.0 stl/1.2 blk/55% FG/35.4 Game Score)
'91 Sixers - 108.1 DRtg - (33.4 pts/8.0 reb/7.8 ast/1.8 stl/1.4 blk/49% FG/27.2 Game Score)
'91 Pistons - 104.6 DRtg (29.8 pts/5.3 reb/7.0 ast/2.3 stl/1.8 blk/54% FG/26.3 Game Score)
'91 Lakers - 105.0 DRtg (31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.6 blk/56% FG/29.4 Game Score)


Kobe:

'06 Suns - 105.8 DRtg (27.8 pts/6.3 reb/5.1 ast/1.1 stl/50% FG/17.9 Game Score)
'07 Suns - 106.4 DRtg - (32.8 pts/5.2 reb/4.4 ast/1.0 stl/46% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'08 Nuggets - 106.3 DRtg - (33.5 pts/5.3 reb/6.3 ast/1.5 stl/1.5 blk/50% FG/25.2 Game Score)
'08 Jazz - 106.5 DRtg - (33.2 pts/7.0 reb/7.2 ast/.8 stl/49% FG/25.4 Game Score - note: aided by 16 FTA/gm for the series, an absurd number)
'09 Jazz - 107.3 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/5.6 ast/2.4 stl/47% FG/20.0 Game Score)
'09 Rockets - 104.0 DRtg - (27.4 pts/5.0 reb/3.7 ast/2.0 stl/1.3 blk/45% FG/20.0 Game Score)

Again...not close.

[eliteballer]

Really....you're trying to compare stats from an era where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Don Nelsons Mavs...:oldlol:

[Glide2keva]

When your MJ a miss doesn't go into the books as a miss it goes in as a pass
Troll attempt = fail. I know you didn't watch that series, so please take your ignorance somewhere where it's needed, like a Tea Party rally.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Really....you're trying to compare stats from an era where the Bad Boys allowed more PPG than Don Nelsons Mavs...:oldlol:

B...b...but I thought it was all about Drtg? You Kobe trolls need to get your stories straight. :oldlol:

[guy]

DRTG just has too many inconsistencies to be taken that seriously.

According to DRTG, 1999 is the greatest defensive season ever. Everyone knows 1999 was just relatively horrible basketball due to how no one took that lockout season seriously.

According to DRTG, the 2008 Nuggets were the 10th best defensive team in the league. Same team led by lockdown defenders like Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. Same team that was ridiculed all year for how bad their defense was to the point that their coach George Karl would regularly publicly joke about how terrible they were defensively.

Don't Kobe fans regularly dismiss PER, which is a much more used and accepted statistic in the media? So you guys just accept advanced statistics that work in your favor?

Even if DRTG is that valid, like someone else said, you're talking about a relatively small difference in points per 100 possessions. You seriously going to say 101 vs. 105 is that large? Thats 4 points. Thats 1.01 vs. 1.05 per possession. Someone brought up how Jordan had one of his worse series against better DRTG teams like the 93 Knicks and 97 Heat. He put up 31/6/4 on 48% the previous year against pretty much the same Knicks team. No one watching both teams could seriously tell there was a 4.5 DRTG difference between the 92 and 93 Knicks. In BOTH series he had some of the greatest games he's ever had. He put up 30/4/3 on 52% the previous year against pretty much the same Heat team. No one watching both teams could seriously tell there was a 3.2 DRTG between the 96 and 97 Heat.

[Glide2keva]

B...b...but I thought it was all about Drtg? You Kobe trolls need to get your stories straight. :oldlol:
They love to fudge the numbers, use specific ages, and when all else fails, they just move the goal posts.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Who was the idiot talking in that video?

He sounded like alphawolf.

I'm convinced Alpha Wolf and Yao's foot are the same dude. No one else could be that pro-Kobe / anti Jordan.

[Derivative]

I'm convinced Alpha Wolf and Yao's foot are the same dude. No one else could be that pro-Kobe / anti Jordan.

and stupid at the same time

[Shaquille O'Neal]

and stupid at the same time

Well there it is.

[Nevaeh]

They love to fudge the numbers, use specific ages, and when all else fails, they just move the goal posts.

I remember some of them not wanting to count Kobe's bench years in comparisons because they bring down his PPG averages, yet at the same time they do want to count those years when talking about his career point totals. Them dudes just like to argue
:oldlol:

[BarberSchool]

Apparently you didn't know John paxson. He had some amazing games during that series.Bingo.

Jordan didn't fully respect or fully trust many of his teammates, but he trusted the f#@k outta Pax. Pax had been there the entire career of Michael at that pint, and Jordan trusted Pax more than anyone else on that team in the clutch, Pippen included.

[BlackVVaves]

:coleman:
his shot selection is only bad when he dosen't make them.:roll:

The problem is he takes so many difficult shots that people either hate on him for being inefficient or hype him for his huge scoring numbers.

the god honest truth is that he's shooting the inefficient shots that inevitably happen in basketball, so that his teammates don't have to. He's better at making those shots and so the offense is better because you see guys like Matt barnes taking less bad shots. Why bother taking a bad shot against good defense when you can let Kobe do it? And that makes the offense better.

Good thread, but too many not-so-hidden, hidden agendas. Like the OP, whose main objective was to turn this into a "Kobe sucks, Jordan king" thread upon creation. When the discussion, for once, was just regarding Michael's performance, without the high school-esque "Bet you Kobe couldn't do that.." the OP took matters into his own hands, inserting Kobe into the discussion. And then ironically disappears, knowing his work for the day has been complete, with pages on pages of posters who are to easily baited and instigated by the most insignificant push.

This quote is probably the most logical, unbiased opinion in the entire thread, as it pertains to Kobe and Jordan, and Kobe's low FG%s. But, aside from what this poster said, Jordan was simply a better player than Bryant. I don't know why that's A) insulting to Kobe B) hard to believe. So Jordan was better than Kobe. So what? Jordan's also better than Lebron, Durant, Wade, Shaq, Duncan, your favorite and least favorite player. The only players who threaten Jordan's GOAT status are players from decades past, the Kareems, the Magics, the Wilts, the Russels. That doesn't mean a player, like Kobe, isn't great in his own right. He's just not the better player between he and MJ. He's still will go down when he retires as the second greatest shooting guard to ever play.

I don't get why people get riled up, on this board particularly. Like teenage girls disputing who's better, Justin Timberlake or Justin Beiber. Can't we have reasonable discussion that doesn't always involve one of Kobe, Lebron, or MJ bashing?

[Nevaeh]

Great post BlackWaves, but I think you missed the point of what actually got peeps "Riled Up", and that was Yao Ming's Foot's insistence on trying to diminish Jordan's accomplishments based on the "Defense Rating' of his opponents, even when he's constantly given facts that totally shoot holes in his argument.

This is a Message Board that's driven by debate, and keeping the facts straight. Some peeps don't like when facts are presented that they don't agree with. But it doesn't mean they get to post whatever the f@ck they want, and not have someone dispute what they're posting either. Whatever you post on a message Board is fair game for someone to refute, especially if it's nonsense.

[Glide2keva]

I remember some of them not wanting to count Kobe's bench years in comparisons because they bring down his PPG averages, yet at the same time they do want to count those years when talking about his career point totals. Them dudes just like to argue
:oldlol:
I know right? And they love to include Jordan's Wizards years.

[Legends66NBA7]

Nice posts Nev and BlackVVaves.

I didn't really want to get involved because I already know the answer to the question and YMF's running a mock with that agenda.

[bwink23]

Yeah offensive rating measures how successful the team's offense was for the year , defensive rating measures how successful the team's defense was for the year.

It's not very complicated. Do you guys think acting obtuse is a brilliant debate strategy or something? :oldlol:


Explain why league defensive rating has been around 107-108.3 for the last 6 years...Then this year (jampacked, shortened season) is down to 104.6??

That's not defense you idiot....that's an OFFENSIVE issue.

:coleman:

[Legends66NBA7]

I know right? And they love to include Jordan's Wizards years.

Yeah, that's stupid when they do that.

If they want to play even and take the years out, take out Jordan's 86, 95, and Wizards years (I guess you can take out Kobe's first 2 or 3 years...).

Not saying that changes anything, obviously, but make it fair game.

[bwink23]

DRTG just has too many inconsistencies to be taken that seriously.

According to DRTG, 1999 is the greatest defensive season ever. Everyone knows 1999 was just relatively horrible basketball due to how no one took that lockout season seriously.

According to DRTG, the 2008 Nuggets were the 10th best defensive team in the league. Same team led by lockdown defenders like Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. Same team that was ridiculed all year for how bad their defense was to the point that their coach George Karl would regularly publicly joke about how terrible they were defensively.

Don't Kobe fans regularly dismiss PER, which is a much more used and accepted statistic in the media? So you guys just accept advanced statistics that work in your favor?

Even if DRTG is that valid, like someone else said, you're talking about a relatively small difference in points per 100 possessions. You seriously going to say 101 vs. 105 is that large? Thats 4 points. Thats 1.01 vs. 1.05 per possession. Someone brought up how Jordan had one of his worse series against better DRTG teams like the 93 Knicks and 97 Heat. He put up 31/6/4 on 48% the previous year against pretty much the same Knicks team. No one watching both teams could seriously tell there was a 4.5 DRTG difference between the 92 and 93 Knicks. In BOTH series he had some of the greatest games he's ever had. He put up 30/4/3 on 52% the previous year against pretty much the same Heat team. No one watching both teams could seriously tell there was a 3.2 DRTG between the 96 and 97 Heat.




:applause: :applause:

Look at how the last 6 years, defensive rating has been around 107.1 average. Now this year, in this shortened season, it's DOWN to 104.6...that's big leap from the prior years...

WONDER WHY THAT IS?? It's because offenses were pathetic this year.

:pimp:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Explain why league defensive rating has been around 107-108.3 for the last 6 years...Then this year (jampacked, shortened season) is down to 104.6??

That's not defense you idiot....that's an OFFENSIVE issue.

:coleman:

Clearly strike shortened seasons are a different animal and much harder to compare.

Was Jordan part of any strike shortened seasons?

[bwink23]

Clearly strike shortened seasons are a different animal and much harder to compare.

Was Jordan part of any strike shortened seasons?


DOESN'T MATTER...it wasn't BETTER defense that caused the slippage...it was worse offense. :no:

80's offense >>>>>>> early 2000's offense.

:hammerhead:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Great post BlackWaves, but I think you missed the point of what actually got peeps "Riled Up", and that was Yao Ming's Foot's insistence on trying to diminish Jordan's accomplishments based on the "Defense Rating' of his opponents, even when he's constantly given facts that totally shoot holes in his argument.

This is a Message Board that's driven by debate, and keeping the facts straight. Some peeps don't like when facts are presented that they don't agree with. But it doesn't mean they get to post whatever the f@ck they want, and not have someone dispute what they're posting either. Whatever you post on a message Board is fair game for someone to refute, especially if it's nonsense.

It doesn't even make sense to compare the defenses they faced unless somebody else compared their performances on offense.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

DOESN'T MATTER...it wasn't BETTER defense that caused the slippage...it was worse offense. :no:

80's offense >>>>>>> early 2000's offense.

:hammerhead:

I'm glad that you agree that Jordan's era of basketball was marked by inflated offensive statistics across the entire league. :confusedshrug:

Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?

[bwink23]

I'm glad that you agree that Jordan's era of basketball was marked by inflated offensive statistics across the entire league. :confusedshrug:

Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?


Yeah....i'm arguing that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards..

i guarantee 99% of the basketball world that knows their ass from a hole in the ground would agree with me.

Who do you think was better?? :D

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah....i'm arguing that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards..

i guarantee 99% of the basketball world that knows their ass from a hole in the ground would agree with me.

Who do you think was better?? :D

So what? Roger Clemens was a better pitcher than 99% of the pitchers during the dead ball era even if they had better ERAs However that doesn't change the fact that its more impressive to have a great offensive game against those from the dead ball era because it was/is more rare. Nor does it mean that there is a flaw in the ERA formula.

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

So what? Roger Clemens was a better pitcher than 99% of the pitchers during the dead ball era even if they had better ERAs However that doesn't change the fact that its more impressive to have a great offensive game against those from the dead ball era because it was/is more rare. Nor does it mean that there is a flaw in the ERA formula.

:confusedshrug:


So who do you pick?? :lol :lol :lol

[BlackVVaves]

Great post BlackWaves, but I think you missed the point of what actually got peeps "Riled Up", and that was Yao Ming's Foot's insistence on trying to diminish Jordan's accomplishments based on the "Defense Rating' of his opponents, even when he's constantly given facts that totally shoot holes in his argument.

This is a Message Board that's driven by debate, and keeping the facts straight. Some peeps don't like when facts are presented that they don't agree with. But it doesn't mean they get to post whatever the f@ck they want, and not have someone dispute what they're posting either. Whatever you post on a message Board is fair game for someone to refute, especially if it's nonsense.

I certainly agree, and don't see the wrong in debating a poster like Ming's Foot in that instance. My post was particularly relating to all that nonsense that goes on in virtually every other thread here.

It's disgusting, annoying, and why my post count is considerably low compared to most posters that have spent only a couple months on this board, even though I've been on ISH since the beginning days. After a month or so, I typically get fed up with the complete bullshit and tune ISH out, sometimes for years at a time (also has to do with my time consuming career. Still, like any hobby, if ISH wasn't a harbor for magnified ignorance, I'd find time for it).

[Leviathon1121]

So what? Roger Clemens was a better pitcher than 99% of the pitchers during the dead ball era even if they had better ERAs However that doesn't change the fact that its more impressive to have a great offensive game against those from the dead ball era because it was/is more rare. Nor does it mean that there is a flaw in the ERA formula.

:confusedshrug:

So it would be far more impressive to have a 50 point game against the 2003 Wizards then it would against the 1991 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[bwink23]

So it would be far more impressive to have a 50 point game against the 2003 Wizards then it would against the 1991 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


:lol

Foot....is dumb.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So it would be far more impressive to have a 50 point game against the 2003 Wizards then it would against the 1991 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

No defensive rating is a per possession efficient stat. It doesn't say anything about raw scoring. Also I never said anything about far more impressive between the Bulls and Wizards. The Bulls and Wizards are completely irrelevant to anything I ever posted. Jordan played for the Bulls and Kobe never faced the Wizards in the playoffs. Im comparing the teams Kobe faced in the Finals to the teams Jordan faced in the Finals and in those cases yes it would be far more impressive to have a great performance against Kobe's opponents than Jordan's.

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

No defensive rating is a per possession efficient stat. It doesn't say anything about raw scoring. Also I never said anything about far more impressive between the Bulls and Wizards. The Bulls and Wizards are completely irrelevant to anything I ever posted. Jordan played for the Bulls and Kobe never faced the Wizards in the playoffs. Im comparing the teams Kobe faced in the Finals to the teams Jordan faced in the Finals and in those cases yes it would be far more impressive to have a great performance against Kobe's opponents than Jordan's.

:confusedshrug:


hmmmmm.......NO.....


Next

[Leviathon1121]

No defensive rating is a per possession efficient stat. It doesn't say anything about raw scoring. Also I never said anything about far more impressive between the Bulls and Wizards. The Bulls and Wizards are completely irrelevant to anything I ever posted. Jordan played for the Bulls and Kobe never faced the Wizards in the playoffs. Im comparing the teams Kobe faced in the Finals to the teams Jordan faced in the Finals and in those cases yes it would be far more impressive to have a great performance against Kobe's opponents than Jordan's.

:confusedshrug:

Wow, you are pathetic dude.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If only insults and emoticons were considered legitimate basketball content you guys would have silenced me a long time ago.

I mean really, you Jordan mythologists don't know that Jordan never faced a team even close to being defensively on par with the 04 Pistons in the Finals?

This is upsetting to you?

[Nevaeh]

So it would be far more impressive to have a 50 point game against the 2003 Wizards then it would against the 1991 Bulls? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Aren't Kobe Stans still Jagging off to Kobe "Dropping 55" on 40 year old Wizards MJ? For them, that seems to be the case.
:oldlol:

[bwink23]

If only insults and emoticons were considered legitimate basketball content you guys would have silenced me a long time ago.

I mean really, you Jordan mythologists don't know that Jordan never faced a team even close to being defensively on par with the 04 Pistons in the Finals?

This is upsetting to you?


I assume that you agree that the defensive rule changes is what led to the spike in scoring and efficiency due to handcuffs being put on perimeter defenders, yes??

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I assume that you agree that the defensive rule changes is what led to the spike in scoring and efficiency due to handcuffs being put on perimeter defenders, yes??

Try to stay on topic btwink.

[RRR3]

and stupid at the same time
AlphaPup is funny though. YMF is just a moron.

[jomama72]

this..

[Nevaeh]

If only insults and emoticons were considered legitimate basketball content you guys would have silenced me a long time ago.

I mean really, you Jordan mythologists don't know that Jordan never faced a team even close to being defensively on par with the 04 Pistons in the Finals?

This is upsetting to you?

Not upsetting to me. :confusedshrug:

I actually enjoyed seeing the Lakers get their ass kicked that year.