GOAT's SPHA Finalists - Top 5 Players by Year (1980-1999)

[G.O.A.T]

As part of my annual breakdown of the NBA and each of is majestic seasons I, like many others, find it important to determine who the best and most important players were from each season. My method for doing so has evolved over the years into what I now call the SPHA Award or Signature Player Historical Achievement Award. The names comes from the acronym for the Southern Philadelphia Hebrew Association. The group which, organized by later NBA forefather Eddie Gottlieb, would become the first all-Jewish professional basketball team. For a couple decades they remained one of the premier teams on the barnstorming circuit and even had a brief shot at the big leagues before Gottlieb hitched his wagons to the NBA and the team that would eventually become first the Philadelphia, and now Golden State Warriors. In honor of that team and the enormous contribution to the history of the game they left, I now look to honor the player whose combined talent, intelligence, heart, hustle, drive and most of all accomplishments best tells the story of each particular season. Looking for help seeing and understanding other peoples view points as I open up this score of seasons for debate.

With that said, here are the top five nominees in the order I currently have them. Letting the debating and berating begin...

1980
1. Kareem
2. Doctor J
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses

1981
1. Bird
2. Doctor J
3. Moses
4. Kareem
5. Gervin

1982 (changed)
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Gervin

1983
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Doctor J
4. Kareem
5. Moncrief

1984
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. King
5. Isiah

1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

1986 (changed)
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. McHale
5. Nique

1987
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

1988
1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

1990 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah

1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone

1992 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq

1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

1997 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Pippen

1998 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Miller

1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd

Your thoughts? Where have I gone wrong? Make sure to give me your reasoning so I can better understand your perspective.

[Toizumi]

Got lost in the shuffle last night because of the game, putting it back out there today.

Good to see you back GOAT. I checked the pasture a couple of times, but there was no activity and it was badly spammed by bots.

I started following basketball in the late 90's, early 2000's.. so putting together top 5's of prior season is tough to do for me. I can rate players historically based on what i've read, heard, seen, but doing it year by year is tough. I'll follow this project though, pretty interesting. Pippen going from no.2 in '96 to out of the top 5 in '97 stood out to me. The Bulls were less dominant, but his numbers were pretty consistent and his game also.

[OldSchoolBBall]

1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

Jordan should be over Moses and/or Isiah here. He pretty clearly had a better season than Moses did at a minimum.


1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

Few people considered Hakeem to be better than Barkley in '89.


1992
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Ewing

I think Robinson has to go at #2 in 1992, above Drexler. Ewing above Malone, too.


1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Shaq should replace DRob, who had a down year in the middle of an incredible 4 year stretch.


1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq

DRob and Shaq pretty easily above Ewing imo. Pippen at #5 or bumped to #6 by Malone.


1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

Pippen at #5 above Barkley.


1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

Shaq, Hakeem, and DRob above Pippen pretty clearly; Penny possibly above Pippen.


1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning

Hill and Penny perhaps over Mourning.


1998
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Payton

Shaq over Malone. Hill over Payton.

[ShaqAttack3234]

First, let me say nice work putting together these lists.



1980
1. Kareem
2. Doctor J
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses

Looks good, except I wouldn't have rookie Magic over Moses, and I might put Bird below Moses as well.


1981
1. Bird
2. Doctor J
3. Moses
4. Kareem
5. Gervin

I'd put Kareem first, this was the least year he was pretty much at his prime level and that alone is enough for me. He looked like pretty much the same player he was in 1980 in the games I've seen. Hasd the misfortune of Magic missing 45 games so they didn't get a bye for the mini-series. Those series were ideal for upsets, and the primary reason they lost was Magic, who had arguably the worst series of his career shooting 39% and airballing the potential series winning shot on a play designed for Kareem.


1982
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Gervin

Well, I'd put Kareem over Magic, at this point, Kareem was still clearly the better player to me since Magic was limited in the half court with an outside shot at this stage of his career and Kareem was still blocking around 3 shots per game. I've always considered Bird consistently better than Magic pre-'87 as well, but he did have some injuries this season.

Other than that, I'd probably have to put Dr. J in the top 5.


1983
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Doctor J
4. Kareem
5. Moncrief

Well, again, Kareem over Magic for the same reasons as '82. This was the last year that I consider Kareem to have been clearly the better player, while it was debatable until it became Magic's team in the '86-'87 season. Kareem averaged 27 ppg and almost 4 blocks on 57% shooting in the playoffs.


1984
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. King
5. Isiah

Looks good, my personal preference would still probably be Kareem over Magic,


1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

Same as '84, looks good.


1986
1. Bird
2. Hakeem
3. Magic
4. Nique
5. McHale

Can't really argue with anything, I might move McHale over Nique because of his defense and because he was pretty much as unstoppable as any scorer in the league at that time. Probably one of the 5 best post scorers ever. And it's worth noting that he did an excellent job defending Nique in the '86 semifinals.

But that's debatable. Can't really argue with anything on this one.


1987
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

Everything looks solid, this might be my exact top 5.


1988
1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

That might be my top 4.

I'd probably put Barkley or Nique at 5. This was the year of the Bird/Nique duel.


1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

This also might be my top 4. I'm reviewing the '89 season right now actually and watching games from that year when I have time.

Would go with Ewing, Malone or KJ at 5.


1990
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

My top 5 is

1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Ewing
4.Barkley
5.Hakeem

Ewing was too dominant for me to leave him out. His 1st round series vs Boston showed how dominant he was at this time. To come back from down 0-2 in a best of 5 with games of 33/19, 44/13/5/7 and 31/8/10/4 vs a much more talented team is pretty amazing.

From what I've read, most players and coaches as well as many writers were calling him the best center this year. Here are some quotes about Patrick that season.


Ewing's play has been an even more important component of New York's success. "He might be the best in the game right now," Los Angeles's Mychal Thompson told the New York Daily News after Ewing scored 29 points in a 115-104 loss on Dec. 3. "He and Magic [Johnson] are shoulder to shoulder."


''He has taken his game to another level,'' Johnson continued, ''a level I've never seen him play at before. He's dominating offensively and defensively, but he's also making the right plays at the right time. He's leading his team, as opposed to before, when it seemed he'd just as soon let somebody else lead. That's the real mark of an m.v.p.''


"People are starting to see what a force he can be," Bulls superstar Michael Jordan said. "With the numbers he's putting up and the way he's carrying that team, there's no question he's a top MVP candidate. I don't see anyone better than him right now."


1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone

This is my top 5 as well.


1992
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Ewing

Drexler at 2 is too high, imo, but in fairness, many were calling him the 2nd best in the league from what I've read and from games I've watched.

I'd put Ewing over Robinson who missed the playoffs with an injury because of how much heart he showed in the Bulls series, and also in front of Drexler because I think he was just flat out better.

Malone had probably the best playoff run of his career so I can see him there. My biggest complaint about him has been that his game didn't translate as well to the playoffs, especially the late 80's/early 90's version, but I can't use that here.

It's strange to have Hakeem out of the top 5, his team did miss the playoffs, but that was a result of them going 2-10 without him(40-30 with him).


1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Looks good, except I'd switch Barkley and Hakeem. Hakeem was an incredible two-way player by this point. The most dominant defensive player in the game and his offense improved greatly. He stepped up with everything running through him in the post with the 4 out/1 in system. He became a great playmaker in addition to an unstoppable scorer while always playing as hard as anyone. He had virtually no weaknesses. He made Houston a 55 win team and a contender, and looking at the other contenders in the West such as Phoenix and Seattle, Houston's talent paled in comparison. They took an absolutely loaded Seattle team to overtime of the 7th game and that was with some suspect calls.

Other than that, I'd like to give Dominique Wilkins a sort of honorable mention, and he is borderline to me. He had what he called his best season, and I agree with him. A remarkable feat at 33 after his injury in '92.


1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq

Beyond Hakeem, the top 5 really are debatable. Not sure about Ewing at 2nd, but Robinson had the horrible playoff series vs Utah when he was shut down by Malone and Shaq was still very raw.


1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

I'd put Pippen in the top 5 ahead of Barkley, and switch Shaq and Robinson. It is close since it's pretty much offense vs defense, but I'd much rather have Shaq in the playoffs, and he had a much more respectable series vs the Rockets.


1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

Payton at 3 is definitely too high, imo, and I'd move Hakeem up to 2nd. He was still the best center, imo and at the tail end of his prime. His team got really unlucky with injuries. I'd also put Robinson in the top 5. Not sure what to take off for Shaq's missed games.

I'm not sure Pippen was ever the second best player in the league, though Doug Collins did call him the best player in the league in '95-'96, and he was playing arguably the best ball of his career before the ankle injury in February.


1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning

Looks good, though I'd be much more willing to rank Shaq over Hakeem in '97 than '96. Hakeem declined, while Shaq improved, had one of his best rebounding/shot blocking years and the Lakers had the best record in the West before his injury in early February. But he did miss a lot of games again and had a poor series vs Utah.

I wouldn't put Mourning in the top 5 either. His temper could still get the better of him as we saw when Rodman got into his head, and he was still not as smart and polished as we would be a couple of years later. Pat Riley and Heat players were calling Tim Hardaway their MVP. Patrick Ewing was still the better center, imo, and I'd bet money that his team would've beaten Mourning's if not for the ridiculous suspensions.

Grant Hill is another top 5 candidate and someone I'd rank over Mourning. He led Detroit to 54 wins while being their scorer and creating everything for them as a point forward. But he did blow a 2-1 lead to Atlanta and blow a 4th quarter lead in game 5 to lose the series while being held scoreless in that 4th quarter.

Scottie Pippen is another guy in the mix for top 5.


1998
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Payton

By this point, I'd rank Shaq as the best player in the league. He entered his prime this year and was only clearly better in 2 seasons which were'00 and '01, arguably '02. But I can understand Jordan ahead of him for what he did that season.

I'd consider Robinson, but I'm fine with Payton, he had arguably his best season that year.


1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd

Looks good, except I'd switch Zo and Malone. Grant Hill and Payton are top 5 candidates, but I can agree with Kidd. He really entered his prime that year and had a great season in a year when not many players had great seasons.

[G.O.A.T]

@ Shaqattack3234

I will break my response into a few parts for the different sections of players being discussed. Thanks for the excellent and thoughtful as usual response. I want to remind you that the criteria for these lists is not simply who are the best/most talented five players, but also which five players were most significant/important in a particular season. To make the list I consider the following:

1) Who was the best most talented player that season
2) Who had the best season, team and individual success factored in
3) Who had the most important season.

The third one is where I consider things like all-NBA, MVP, Finals MVP, playoff runs etc.

For an example, I'll start with my response to the 1980 season...



1980: Looks good, except I wouldn't have rookie Magic over Moses, and I might put Bird below Moses as well.


1981: I'd put Kareem first, this was the least year he was pretty much at his prime level and that alone is enough for me. He looked like pretty much the same player he was in 1980 in the games I've seen. Hasd the misfortune of Magic missing 45 games so they didn't get a bye for the mini-series. Those series were ideal for upsets, and the primary reason they lost was Magic, who had arguably the worst series of his career shooting 39% and airballing the potential series winning shot on a play designed for Kareem.



1982: Well, I'd put Kareem over Magic, at this point, Kareem was still clearly the better player to me since Magic was limited in the half court with an outside shot at this stage of his career and Kareem was still blocking around 3 shots per game. I've always considered Bird consistently better than Magic pre-'87 as well, but he did have some injuries this season.

Other than that, I'd probably have to put Dr. J in the top 5.



1983: Well, again, Kareem over Magic for the same reasons as '82. This was the last year that I consider Kareem to have been clearly the better player, while it was debatable until it became Magic's team in the '86-'87 season. Kareem averaged 27 ppg and almost 4 blocks on 57% shooting in the playoffs.


1980 is a tough year for me. The first two are obvious I believe and I am also sure Moses was the third best player that year, but with the Celtics great turnaround and sweeping Houston from the playoffs, the incredible impact Bird had and most of all, Magic's amazing and unforgettable finals performance, all add up to me thinking they had more significant seasons than Malone. I think I'm going to end up putting Magic 3rd, Bird 4th, Moses 5th. That doesn't mean I think Bird and Magic had already become better players than Moses, just that their seasons were more meaningful to NBA history.

As far as 1981, I can't put Kareem first, though everything you say about that season is true, Kareem still got outplayed (slightly) by Malone during the series and the Lakers collapse based on Magic's brooding suggests how important he had become to the team and how little leadership Kareem brought to the table. So while I too think Kareem was, for at least the 11th straight year, the NBA's greatest talent, he did not have the best season by any means.

By 1982 it was more Magic's team than Kareem and while Kareem was better, Magic was more important. I respect your perspective on this but the all-NBA and MVP voters, the Lakers owner and fans, my gut, the books I've read on the subject, the historical verdict all favor Magic. From 1982 on, Magic was more important and had more important seasons than Kareem every year.

If we are asking which player was more talented and if you gave them each their own teams which one would produce more measurable wins, it's probably Kareem through 1984 or 1985, but based on what happen on and off the court and considering all the intangibles, Magic is the clear choice for me.

I think you're right about Doc over Ice in 1982, I'm going to break this one down tonight with the files and film I have of both players that season.

[G.O.A.T]

1986: Can't really argue with anything, I might move McHale over Nique because of his defense and because he was pretty much as unstoppable as any scorer in the league at that time. Probably one of the 5 best post scorers ever. And it's worth noting that he did an excellent job defending Nique in the '86 semifinals.

But that's debatable. Can't really argue with anything on this one.


1988: That might be my top 4.

I'd probably put Barkley or Nique at 5. This was the year of the Bird/Nique duel.


1989: This also might be my top 4. I'm reviewing the '89 season right now actually and watching games from that year when I have time.

Would go with Ewing, Malone or KJ at 5.


1990 My top 5 is

1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Ewing
4.Barkley
5.Hakeem

Ewing was too dominant for me to leave him out. His 1st round series vs Boston showed how dominant he was at this time. To come back from down 0-2 in a best of 5 with games of 33/19, 44/13/5/7 and 31/8/10/4 vs a much more talented team is pretty amazing.

From what I've read, most players and coaches as well as many writers were calling him the best center this year.

Thoughts on Barkley vs. Nique in '86? I have been tempted to move McHale up one spot. The Hawks and Celtics meet in the playoffs that year and Nique was pretty shaky despite a regular season where I believe he finished second to Bird in the MVP race.

As far as 88-90, the big difference we seem to have is on Isiah. To me he meant too much to too important a team not to find his way into the conversation. Remember that during the Conference Finals and NBA finals he had games where he outplayed MJ and Magic. Despite Zeke posting better numbers in previous years the consensus among his teammates, the Detroit media at the time, Chuck Daly and Isiah himself is that he was a much better player from '88-'90 than in his younger more statistically impressive days.

1990 was the toughest year maybe of all-time for me. Ewing was excellent, but those other five guys were all in their primes and near or at their peak and are all top 25 players all-time to me whereas Ewing isn't even top 40 anymore. (With Wade, Dirk and LeBron passing him in the last two years). Barkley and Olajuwon were simply better (by quite a bit IMO) and Isiah was the best player and MVP for a 60-win repeat Champion. The Pistons and Knicks meet in the playoffs that year and Isiah was as good or better in 4 of 5 games.

As much as I am sure we both feel like were making objective points here, I think that fact that I am an Isiah guy and you a Ewing guy is probably showing a bit.

[oolalaa]

1980
1. Kareem
2. Doctor J
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses

Agreed, Kareem proved in the post season that he was still easily the best.

1981
1. Bird
2. Doctor J
3. Moses
4. Kareem
5. Gervin

This is pretty tough. Bird, Moses and Kareem all have great claims to the top spot. Kareem does seem too low, though. This was his last year as an elite rebounder - that part of his game seemed to fall off the cliff from '82 onwards - and probably the last year of his prime.

I would also, definitely, rank Moses over Dr J. I see no justification for rankng a past his prime Julius Erving over a peak/prime Moses Malone - Moses was just too dominant.

1982
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Gervin

Agreed.

1983
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Doctor J
4. Kareem
5. Moncrief

Bird was never not a top 5 player (before '89 anyway). Ranking Moncrief over him is extremely generous. I loved Moncrief - he was one of the best all round player of the 80s, before his knee injury anyway. I loved his reckless abandon and his silky smooth jumper, but Bird brought way more to the table. This was Larry Bird! I dont care if it was an off year. Incidentally, he had an 'off year' in part because, by the end of the regular season, the Celtics had flat out revolted against Fitch. They wouldn't play for him against the bucks in the 1st round.

Moses deserves top spot though. He was too dominant this season.

1984
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. King
5. Isiah

Agreed.

1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

I would take Magic over bird, after all, the Lakers did beat Boston in the finals, but that's just a preference thing. And, damn you Bernard King, damn you!!

1986
1. Bird
2. Hakeem
3. Magic
4. Nique
5. McHale

Stick McHale on any other team (apart form the Lakers) and his numbers drop significantly, from his 25/9 peak, anyway (especially his efficiency). Bird MADE McHale, in a similar way to how Magic (Who 2nd year Hakeem has no business being over btw) made Worthy.

However, this wasn't exactly a stellar year for talent, so I wont argue too much with McHale sneaking in there. I would take Isiah over him, though.

1987
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

Agree, but with Isiah over McHale.

1988
1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

Jordan's prime officially began in 87/88. Magic was really great, but this was Michael Jordan.

And btw, a team with Mo Cheeks running the point and Charles Barkley coming into his prime should have been able to make the playoffs. It's a pity they couldn't stop anyone on the other end.

1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

I would just be nitpicking.

1990
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

This was Bird's last relatively healthy year. A Larry Bird at 85% is still worthy of a top 5 spot, and remember, the Celtics were one of the favourites to win it all going into the post season. It took a superhuman series from the 'finally maturing Patrick Ewing' to spoil the party.

Incidentally, give me Ewing over Hakeem. Whilst Ewing was dismantling the Celtics in the 1st round, Hakeem was stink bombing against the Lakers (was he hurt? I really cant remember). Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Ewing, Bird.

1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone

Completely agree

1992
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Ewing

It's seems crazy that 'Clyde The Glide' was the second best player in 91/92, but I think you might be right!!

1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Completely agree.

1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq

I feel like Chuck should squeak in, but I'm not sure who to remove :banghead:

1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

Shaq > Robinson (too much of a cuddly, wuddly softy). And, chuck over Malone. Chuck > Malone, until '97.

1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

You sure Payton was the best player on that Sonics finals team? It's close, but I think I might take the 'Reign Man'. Gary Payton was a top 3 player in the league at one point? Really? That cant be right. I would choose Robinson, Ewing, Chuck, Kemp, Malone and maybe even Mourning over him.

And I really dont see a case for Pippen being number 2. He was great in the 1st half of that season - he had a 5 game stretch in december where he averaged 32/8/8 & 2 stls - but those injuries late in the year took a lot of his rythm away for the playoffs

1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning

Shaq had overtaken Hakeem by this point.

1998
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Payton

Agreed.

1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd

Agreed.






I got a little lazy towards the end :oldlol: I'll give some more detail soon.

[tmacattack33]

Penny Hardaway over Payton in 1996. He was 3rd in MVP voting and held his own when Shaq was injured.

[G.O.A.T]

1992: Drexler at 2 is too high, imo, but in fairness, many were calling him the 2nd best in the league from what I've read and from games I've watched.

I'd put Ewing over Robinson who missed the playoffs with an injury because of how much heart he showed in the Bulls series, and also in front of Drexler because I think he was just flat out better.

Malone had probably the best playoff run of his career so I can see him there. My biggest complaint about him has been that his game didn't translate as well to the playoffs, especially the late 80's/early 90's version, but I can't use that here.

It's strange to have Hakeem out of the top 5, his team did miss the playoffs, but that was a result of them going 2-10 without him(40-30 with him).

In regards to 1992 Drexler belongs at number two because of the season's narrative. Clyde had been to the Finals in 1990, he had his best season in 1992, with Magic retired the West was up for grabs. Portland, San Antonio, Utah, Houston, Phoneix, they were all 50 win teams with marquee stars and it was Drexlers Blazers who emerged. Clyde finished second in the MVP voting, averaged an impressive 26-7-7 through the 20-some playoff games. Putting Drexler at #2 for the season helps tell the story of the season. As the finals began the pregame talk was of rather or not Glide had soared to MJ's heights. As it turned out, no, but he was as close as anyone else who ever took a shot during the two three-peats.

In regards to Ewing vs Robinson that year, I had to give Robinson the edge for a few reasons. One he finished third in the MVP voting and actually had an edge or was even in every major traditional statistical category. And while Ewing had a strong final game versus the aging Pistons in round one and the Knicks did battle very hard to push Chicago to seven, that series to me is further evidence why Ewing was never a true superstar. In the final two games in Chicago, which New York needed to win at least one of, Ewing was awful, shooting 13-39 and averaging just 18 points, 8 rebounds and 1 assist. Ewing never went down with a good effort in that era:

1990 versus Pistons: 7-23 field goals
1991 versus Bulls: 7-19 field goals
1992 versus Bulls: 8-19 field goals

He was never a great shooter in clutch games, but at least in 1993 and 1994 he was dominant on the glass and making plays. He had something like 25-20-7-7 versus Indiana in game six or seven. Like 30 and 15 closing out the Bulls that year. That's why I have him at #2 in 1994 despite some erosion of his physical skills.

For me, a lot of times I can see the case for a lot of players so things like the playoffs where the the stakes are amplified matter a lot and if it's sort of a toss up, I'll let the player who's team one a closely contested series get the nod.

[Shep]

1980
1. Kareem - correct
2. Doctor J - correct
3. Bird - incorrect (magic johnson)
4. Magic - incorrect (larry bird
5. Moses - incorrect (norm nixon


1981
1. Bird - correct
2. Doctor J - incorrect (moses malone)
3. Moses - incorrect (kareem abdul-jabber)
4. Kareem - incorrect (magic johnson)
5. Gervin - incorrect (julius erving)


1982
1. Moses - incorrect (magic johnson)
2. Magic - incorrect (kareem abdul-jabbar)
3. Kareem - incorrect (larry bird)
4. Bird - incorrect (julius erving)
5. Gervin - incorrect (moses malone)


1983
1. Moses - correct
2. Magic - correct
3. Doctor J - correct
4. Kareem - correct
5. Moncrief - incorrect (larry bird)


1984
1. Bird - correct
2. Magic - correct
3. Kareem - correct
4. King - incorrect (isiah thomas)
5. Isiah - incorrect (robert parish)


1985
1. Bird - correct
2. Magic - correct
3. Kareem - correct
4. Isiah - correct
5. Moses - correct


1986
1. Bird - correct
2. Hakeem - correct
3. Magic - correct
4. Nique - incorrect (kevin mchale)
5. McHale - incorrect (charles barkley)


1987
1. Magic - correct
2. Bird - correct
3. Jordan - incorrect (hakeem olajuwon)
4. Hakeem - incorrect (michael jordan)
5. McHale - incorrect (isiah thomas)


1988
1. Magic - incorrect (michael jordan)
2. Jordan - incorrect (magic johnson)
3. Bird - correct
4. Hakeem - correct
5. Isiah - incorrect (john stockton)


1989
1. Jordan - correct
2. Magic - correct
3. Hakeem - correct
4. Barkley - incorrect (isiah thomas)
5. Isiah - incorrect (kevin johnson)


1990
1. Jordan - correct
2. Magic - incorrect (david robinson)
3. Barkley - incorrect (hakeem olajuwon)
4. Hakeem - incorrect (magic johnson)
5. Isiah - incorrect (patrick ewing)


1991
1. Jordan - correct
2. Magic - incorrect (scottie pippen)
3. Barkley - incorrect (magic johnson)
4. Robinson - correct
5. Malone - incorrect (john stockton)


1992
1. Jordan - correct
2. Drexler - incorrect (scottie pippen)
3. Malone - incorrect (david robinson)
4. Robinson - incorrect (clyde drexler)
5. Ewing - incorrect (hakeem olajuwon)


1993
1. Jordan - correct
2. Barkley - incorrect (hakeem olajuwon)
3. Hakeem - incorrect (charles barkley)
4. Ewing - incorrect (david robinson)
5. Robinson - incorrect (scottie pippen)


1994
1. Hakeem - correct
2. Ewing - correct
3. Robinson - correct
4. Pippen - incorrect (karl malone)
5. Shaq - incorrect (scottie pippen)


1995
1. Hakeem - correct
2. Robinson - correct
3. Shaq - correct
4. Malone - correct
5. Barkley - correct


1996
1. Jordan - correct
2. Pippen - correct
3. Payton - incorrect (david robinson)
4. Shaq - correct
5. Hakeem - incorrect (karl malone)


1997
1. Jordan - correct
2. Malone - correct
3. Hakeem - incorrect (shaquille o'neal)
4. Shaq - incorrect (scottie pippen)
5. Mourning - incorrect (hakeem olajuwon)


1998
1. Jordan - correct
2. Malone - correct
3. Shaq - correct
4. Duncan - incorrect (scottie pippen)
5. Payton - incorrect (david robinson)


1999
1. Duncan - correct
2. Shaq - incorrect (david robinson)
3. Malone - incorrect (alonzo mourning)
4. Mourning - incorrect (shaquille o'neal)
5. Kidd - incorrect (karl malone)

mm

[G.O.A.T]

(in 1996) I would choose Robinson, Ewing, Chuck, Kemp, Malone and maybe even Mourning over him. (Payton)

Robinson - D-Rob did finish second in the MVP voting but was a disaster in the playoffs. The Spurs held HCA for the WCSF vs. Utah, but Robinson had games of 11-9, 11-4 and 17-8 in Utah as predictably, the Spurs got trounced.

Ewing - The Knicks won just 47 games as a decking Ewing posted his worst scoring and rebounding totals in eight seasons and shot a career low (at that point) .466 from the field.

Barkley - An aging and increasingly frustrated Barkley shot 6-15 as his team was closed out in the first round and Sun set on Chuck career in Phoenix. The Suns were just a .500 team anyway as Barkley fell to the all-NBA third team.

Kemp - Payton received a greater percentage of the MVP vote than Kemp and played eight mpg more in the regular season and playoffs. Payton was the key to both the Sonics offense and defense. Furthermore George Karl described Kemp as "independent from the team" and said he had "His own way of doing things that didn't always help the team."

Malone - I have him 6th for the season and a case could be made that he should be higher. The Jazz played the Sonics tough in the WCF and Malone put up good numbers throughout the series though he did struggle in game seven going 8-22 from the field and grabbing just 5 rebounds.

Mourning - Not there yet. Still the fifth best center in the league and even if he's a comparable player, you'd rather have the best PG than the fifth best center. In the playoffs Mourning couldn't even stay on the floor against the Bulls.

The reason for Payton's position being higher than his talent is a perfect storm for the glove that season. His team finally didn't underachieve in the playoffs. He won the defensive POTY award. He had a very strong statistical playoff run during which he was being lauded by the announcers for his leadership and focus and he played the most effective defense of anyone all season on MJ in the finals. A lot of the guys you mentioned were better than GPO, but they didn't have better seasons.

[NugzHeat3]

I'm not a huge fan of your criteria. You seem to be putting more emphasis on player of the year as in which player had a better story for the season or the better season as opposed to who was the better player. You also seem to be rewarding team success quite a bit, more so than I feel you should.

Personally, the better player to me is the one who makes the biggest impact and contributes the most to his team's success regardless of how far they go. I try to separate quality of teammates and team success from individual contribution and I can't give said player extra credit for getting farther than somebody else when it's clear that the difference between the two is that one plays on a much better team than the other. Also, I say this realizing that there's a strong correlation between individual contribution and team success.

I'm just commenting because I read your post where you defend your opinion on Drexler and you seem to be intent on having your rankings describe the season's narrative . If that's what you want to do, that's fine but I don't think you can really say you're ranking the better player in that case.

Here's my opinion though keep in mind, my criteria is just to rank the 5 best players in order. Also, I can't comment on the 80s and I do penalize players for missing the playoffs but I also draw a line somewhere in how much I can dock them.


1990
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah
I don't know a whole lot about this year but I'd definitely take Ewing over Hakeem. I saw a couple of games from Ewing this year and he seemed less reliant on his jumpshot, played more of an interior game, seemed much more quicker and less predictable due to it and he also didn't since his athleticism was able to bail him out. The Knicks also overachieved beating Boston after being down 0-2 and winning the pivotal game 5 @ the Boston Garden. Ewing was immense in the last 3 games and I read your post that playoff games can be a deciding factor so I can't see why that shouldn't apply in this case.

Hakeem was a monster defensively but Ewing was no slouch in this regard and he was a much better offensive player although Hakeem was probably more skilled at that point. Also, Hakeem had a rep of trying to do to much at this point because he didn't trust his teammates enough and too much of something is never good. I don't really blame him a whole lot in retrospect though.

Ewing also got quite a bit of love this year from his peers. He was considered the best consensus C and in the sporting news MVP voting, he was 4th behind Barkley, Magic and Jordan.


In balloting by 180 NBA players, Barkley received 57 1/2 votes. Los Angeles guard Magic Johnson received 44 1/2. Chicago's Michael Jordan was third with 44 votes, followed by New York's Patrick Ewing with 21 1/2 and Houston's Akeem Olajuwon with 7
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/104223/PLAYERS-VOTE-FOR-BARKLEY-AS-NBAS-MVP.html


1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone
Agreed on all counts.


1992
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Ewing
My top 5 is the same as yours except that I'd move Robinson 5th since he missed the playoffs. Ewing is 4th and I'm switching Karl Malone and Drexler. This is where we disagree regarding team success and season narrative. I simply feel Malone was better. He actually did pretty well in the 4th quarters from what I saw and I'd says it's because he mixed the perimeter game well with inside game. Of course, Stock was pretty good at getting him the ball off screen and rolls, tough angles and they ran some cross screens with J. Malone and Edwards to help him set up deeper because their man wasn't going to switch.

He had several 4th quarters in the 1992 playoffs where he scored 10+. In game one vs Seattle, he had 16 of his 30 in the 4th and they mentioned Utah brought him up high and he made great decisiosn from there. To close Seattle, he had 15 of his 37 in the 4th and Eaton fed off the attention he drew late in the quarter.. In the Blazer series, he was the best player on the floor. He was posting up deep on Buck Williams, drawing a lot of fouls, putting the ball on the floor, doing that trademark set up on the left block and rolling across the lane. His jumper did not have quite the same range but he was still effective on the face up and turnaround. Passing wasn't quite as good in the late 90s. He didn't have the same touch, control or accuracy. Good outlet passing though. He played huge @ Portland in the pivotal game 5 with 28 pts in the second half realizing that Stockton was hurt and wasn't coming back. He helped force OT where the Blazers talent was simply overwhelming. In game six, Portland limited him pretty well and he only scored 2 in the 4th but they were doubling him hard and even sending triple teams making guys like Tyrone Corbin and Edwards beat them but that wasn't happening. This was a huge issue with the Jazz in the early 90s as they didn't have proper spacing. Hornacek was a huge upgrade over the one dimensional Jeff Malone in this regard.


1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson
I'd switch Barkley and Hakeem and it's not even close to me. Hakeem got underrated throughout the year though there were a few people who noticed the great year he had and said he => anyone in the league Jordan included. Hard to get people to notice you when you have 1 nationally televised game all season to be honest. Anyway, he was flawless and awesome on both ends on the court, emerged into a leader by example and showed examples of vocal leadership in the locker room as well (Tree Rollins verifies this). The coaches actually voted him MVP this year by a smidge. The gargantuan difference between their defense is enough for me and I can't help but remember Houston getting jobbed down the stretch vs Seattle with multiple calls while the MVP needed a HORRIFIC no call on a clearly late putback in game 5 just to beat the sub.500 Lakers.


1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq
Ewing is way too high but I realize it fits your criteria and see why you have him here.

Believe it or not, Karl Malone is my #2 even though he had a very down year in terms of numbers. Here's a post I wrote about this year on Karl: I've watched a lot of playoff games and that was a transition year for him. He didn't set up as deep (probably to extend his career) and became more of a jump shooter and extended his range. His passing to cutters as well as towards the strong side and weakside was a lot better.

In the playoffs, he took it to Rodman/Robinson and completely shut Robinson down. That swipe was deadly, he made Robinson pass up shots and look tentative with the excessive physical play. He hit a go-ahead jumpshot with about 40 seconds left to close the Spurs out.

Against Denver, he didn't post as much because Dikembe was a huge presence in the lane but his perimeter game was on point. He saved Utah the embarassment by not losing game 7 after losing a 3-0 lead with a huge first half being extremely wet from the perimeter. In game three, Denver was so concerned with Malone on the pick and roll, that they were allowing Stock and Hornacek to shoot. They did and Sloan afterwards said, "that was good to see because Stock doesn't usually take those shots" a sign that indicates he didn't assert himself enough. Paraphrased.

Against Houston, they came out flat, Hakeem was going off and getting too much attention and they lost to a better team. Malone had food poisoning which definitely effected him after game two. This is another series where I think Stockton should have been more aggressive and taken advantage of the Houston defense. Houston couldn't guard PGs to save their lives and that was the only glaring weakness of that team.

Robinson is my #3 even though he has quite a bit of flaws and Malone thoroughly embarrassed him in the first round.

Shaq is my #4. He was a very dominant albeit still flawed offensive force at this point. I can't base too much on a 3 game playoff series since the sample size is really small. Shaq got more MVP love than anyone not named Hakeem and David.



His fellow NBA players agreed and voted Olajuwon THE SPORTING NEWS NBA Player of the Year. "I don't like to campaign for myself," Olajuwon says. "But humility demands the truth." Olajuwon tallied 72 votes, with David Robinson (56) and Shaquille O'Neal (15) finishing second and third.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n20_v217/ai_15236879/?tag=content;col1


NBA survey salutes the Admiral as top gun // Players uniformly like the view in Phoenix

[FINAL Edition]
USA TODAY (pre-1997 Fulltext) - McLean, Va.
Author: David DuPree
Date: Apr 28, 1994
Start Page: 11.E
Section: BONUS
Text Word Count: 1006
Abstract (Document Summary)

David Robinson of San Antonio, the NBA's leading scorer, was voted most valuable player in USA TODAY's third annual survey of players, coaches, trainers and general managers. Robinson received 47% (126 votes) to 36% (98) for Hakeem Olajuwon of Houston. Shaquille O'Neal of Orlando was a distant third.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/55236959.html?dids=55236959:55236959&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+28%2C+1994&author=David+DuPree&pub=USA+TODAY+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=NBA+survey+salutes+the+Admiral+as+top+gun+%2F %2F+Players+uniformly+like+the+view+in+Phoenix&pqatl=google
It's very tough between Pippen and Ewing but I'll side with Ewing by a smidge though it feels wrong completely leaving Pippen off the list considering the year he had overachieving with Chicago. I can understand an argument for Pippen and somebody may convince me.

[LosBulls]

http://i.qkme.me/36jsab.jpg

[NugzHeat3]

Another long ass post incoming.


1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley
I'd switch Shaq and Robinson. Shaq was a much better offensive player with a better back to basket game which is more suitable in playoff environment as opposed to a face up game which Robinson relied on. All you have to do is compare the series vs the Rockets . Houston's game plan was to double team each guy. Robinson very much struggled to break down the double teams because he couldn't see the floor as well and just flustered under pressure. Shaq's dominant back to basket game + superior passing ability made it much easier to pass out of double teams and he was also getting deeper position which meant the Rockets perimeter players who were helping had to spend more time getting there and more time recovering thus an easier time for the Orlando shooters who still failed to knock down open shots. I'd argue Shaq was a better post-defender as well due to his bulk + superior strength and he's always been great at contesting shots against post-players on the move.

Robinson had a more superior season, was the MVP and overachieved with the Spurs more so than Shaq did but I'm going to war with Shaq.
I would also move Robinson behind Malone for the same reason. Struggling to type this because you know a guy must be a choker if you're taking Malone over him but I'd go to WAR with Karl Malone over David Robinson. I still have 1994 in my mind where he completely dominated him and he does the same in 1996 as well.

Karl did great vs Houston and didn't get adequate support + he simply lost to a better team. He also had a very good elimination game. In the crucial 4th quarter, he did have 9 points and 3 rebounds including a desperation three in Hakeem's grill. Hakeem had 12 points and 5 rebounds and was the better player in the quarter (made a insane turnaround shot off the edge of the glass and dunked on the entire state of Utah on a lob pass). That said, Utah after being up with about 7 minutes left tried running the clock down, fed Malone who got doubled, kicked it out to Benoit and CLANK.

Technically, Karl made the right play as he was drawing a double team while the rest of the team couldn't reduce the load. Hakeem had support. Drexler had 8 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists in the quarter while the great Johnny Stockton had 1 points and 0 assist along with 4 missed shots.


1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
Again, disagree outside of Jordan who is a clearcut #1. I see your stance on Payton considering the criteria.

Payton would be nowhere near my top 5 though. Firstly, let's see GP's perception amongst players, coaches, GMs in a best in the league poll.

1996 USA TODAY surveyed NBA players, coaches, trainers and general managers in seven
different
categories. Of 435 ballots distributed, 301 (69%) were returned. Voters could
pick teammates, their own
coach or home arena. All selections were confidential. The results:
Best player
Player Team Points
1. Michael Jordan Chicago 132
2. Hakeem Olajuwon Houston 25
3. Scottie Pippen Chicago 19
4. Anfernee Hardaway Orlando 7
5. Shaquille O'Neal Orlando 3
6. Grant Hill Detroit 2
(Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, David Robinson of San Antonio,
Charles Barkley of Phoenix,
Mitch Richmond of Sacramento and Shawn Kemp of Seattle each received one vote)

Gary Payton didn't get a single vote for best player in the league at the end of the 1996 season. Jordan got 132, Hakeem 25, Pippen 19, Penny 7, hey even Magic coming out of retirement got one and his own teammate as well.
Lets see which PGs coaches thought were the best in 1996:


Who's the NBA's best point guard? SI asked the league's 29 coaches to name their top three choices. Twenty-four responded, and they overwhelmingly voted for an old reliable, 33-year-old, 12-season vet John Stockton, who in a Feb. 20 game against the Celtics established himself as the league's alltime leader in steals (with 2,321 and counting at week's end), to go with his status as the alltime assists leader (11,025 and counting). The results, with three points given for a first-place vote, two for a second and one for a third (first-place points in parentheses):

1. John Stockton 57 (14)

2. Anfernee Hardaway 44 (5)

3. Jason Kidd 19 (3)

4. Gary Payton 18 (2)

5. Magic Johnson 2

6. Mookie Blaylock 1

Kevin Johnson 1

Scottie Pippen 1

Rod Strickland 1


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007830/index.htm

Payton was 4th behind Jason Kidd. Yes, that's young Kidd.

His DPoY is one of the worst selections in league history showing the emphasis voters put on stats such as spg. He himself admits this.


Those moments probably had as much to do with winning the award, an accomplishment Payton says he considers on par with winning an NBA title.

Payton said, overall, he had a better defensive season last season. This season, he conceded, the difference was leading the league in steals.

"I didn't come into the season looking to lead the league in steals," Payton said. "But I got off to a good start, and got the lead early. About two months into the year, I decided it was going to happen. I led the league in steals because I went for more steals."
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960507&slug=2327993

What kind of shit is that? He admits he had a better defensive season the year before he won the award. In 1995, he had 2 votes in total and goes to winning the award from there despite having a worse season according to himself.

It just shows you the level of idiocy of some of the voters and the emphasis on stats to measure defense.

Don't get me wrong. GP's defense was great and it got their entire defense going because it was a team that was built around pressure defense and trapping which got the team's transition offense going through turnovers forced. He'd pressure the ball, hound his man, they'd trap with their bigger gurads or forwards like McKey or McMillan and someone else would step into the passing lane. Payton was also pretty active, very quick hands, long arms for effective double teaming and ball denial. I've seen him have GW steals on guys like Jordan and Hakeem.

But the system the Sonics ran (SOS pressure defense of Bob Kloppenburg) had just as much to do with it as Payton's defense. There was a lot of switching involved and so many rotations because they swarmed you so much so the Sonics defense was as much of a team-oriented defense as any.

To be fair, every defense is team-oriented but Payton wasn't a guy who could single handedly anchor a defense or give you a foundation to build your defense around like David Robinson who was the rightful DPoY.

Payton had a great year but he wasn't better than Shaq, Hakeem, Penny, David Robinson or Karl Malone.

I'm not 100% certain on how rank 2-5 but I'd go Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Robinson in that order. Hakeem got unlucky with all the injuries Houston had and his perception was still high as he got most votes for best in the league not named Jordan. I talked to ShaqAttack about this and I think Hakeem was just coasting early on in that season before the injuries for everyone started to pile up. Given his age, he was probably saving himself for the post-season but he was forced to pick up the load as they had a plethora of injuries. His numbers are really good post All-Star break and pretty mediocre before it but that's what ultimately led to his downfall in the playoffs. In the season, in order, Drexler went down with a shin injury, Elie broke his wrist shortly after, Horry had knee tendinitis, Cassell had elbow surgery and Hakeem ended up wearing himself down as well as went down with knee tendinitis late in the season which continued in the playoffs.

You can see they had to call up quite a few CBA players that year and the team never really got a chance to group together and get themselves ready for the playoffs as quite a few were still banged up. The Lakers were favourites in the first round vs Houston to paint the picture for you.

Shaq was great that year and though he missed a good portion early in the year, he available in the playoffs and played well for most of the year.

David Robinson had a great regular season and a first round as he overachieved with San Antonio but he again failed in the playoffs vs Utah and struggled against a good defensive frontline in Karl Malone and Felton Spencer with John Stockton helping. That's his flaw and it's in his offensive game and for all his defensive and stat stuffing ability, it moves him below Hakeem, Shaq and Malone.


1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning
Pefect except for Zo who has no business being there. He's not even the best player on his team or the MVP which was Tim according to Riley and multiple players on the team. He was very flawed at this point and led his temper get the best of him as Rodman got into his head in the playoffs. His offensive game isn't very reliable at this point or very polished. I'd take Hill instead of him and I see an argument for Pippen.

[NugzHeat3]

First page in candidacy for longest page in ISH history.

1998
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Payton
I'm going to agree with ShaqAttack and say Shaq was the best in the league at this point. This is basically a prime Shaq with not much difference from his 2000 version apart from the fact that Phil Jackson isn't coaching. Of course, Phil made him a more committed player in regards to rebounding and defense but in terms of skill level, this is prime Shaq. He was just playing on a very talented but flawed team that had a coach they had no respect for. He had an awesome series vs Seattle that got him huge respect for George Karl who said he was not only the best player in the league but also the best post player in the history of the league.

I'm totally fine with Jordan as #1 though who had an awesome year carrying Bulls to a great record with Pippen out for the first half of the season and putting a remarkable effort vs Utah in game 6 with Pippen literally serving as a decoy. He was definitely deserving of MVP. I love watching Jordan games from this year.

Malone, Duncan and Payton for 3-5 sounds good.



1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd


I can dig this but I'd switch Zo and Malone. Zo had really improved his game this year by controlling his temper, becoming much more of a leader, improving his post game as he could hit jumphooks with both hands, put the ball on the floor, react better to double teams ect. His offensive support was terrible. Mashburn was an awful fit in the Heat offense and Tim Hardaway had also really declined at this point putting weight on, dealing with injuries and shot selection issues.

[G.O.A.T]

Very nice responses Nugz

I only want to comment immediately on my criteria, but rest assured that much of your analysis as well as Shaqattack's have, as I'd hoped, forced me to reconsider or at the least reevaluate my opinions on a number of seasons.

I think your misunderstanding the point of my criteria. I am NOT trying to list the five best players from each season. I am trying to list the guys who had the five most important seasons. The five seasons I would be most proud of as that player or a fan of him. Now talent is obviously very important in making this decision, but more than just that goes into it.

Was Shaq a better player than Michael Jordan in 1998? probably.
Did he have a larger overall impact from game to game? I'd say yes.
Would I rather emerge as the future of the NBA in LA, average 28-11-3-3 shooting 60% fro the field or would I rather win the NBA finals on the last shot I ever take (should have been) securing my place as the greatest player of all-time during a season in which I won my fifth MVP? I bet you can guess.

And lets remember how Shaq's season ended. All of his major flaws were exposed and his team was annihilated by the aging Utah Jazz. In game one Shaq was 6-16 from the field while being guarded by Greg Ostertag. In game two the Diesel had just seven rebounds and was not able to score down the stretch as Utah took the lead in the fourth and won. In game three Shaq was awesome, but his 5-13 ft performance made him a non-factor late and Utah again dominated the fourth quarter for a win. Game four completed the sweep, which at this point of Shaq's career was a pretty regular thing. O'Neal's teams were swept out of the '94, '95, '96, '98 and '99 playoffs.

To tell someone Shaq was the leagues most significant player in 1998 only serves to under-emphasize the growth of Shaq under Phil Jackson that made him the most dominant force of the second 30 years of NBA history.

If I were to just list the top five impact players, Payton would never touch these lists, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Robinson, Ewing...hard to keep them out most years they are healthy. This is more about understanding the entire season through the respective stories of each elite player.

Finally to elaborate on the Drexler 2nd in 1992. You see he is not there in the top five in 1990 or 1995 etc. So it's not as simple as; "putting emphasis on team success". It's more than that. I was in the prime of my basketball watching days in 1992. Too young to drink at the bars but old enough to have a job and a car. When I think of that season I remember guys like Barkley and Olajuwon struggling to stay happy with their teams. I remember the NBA adjusting to life without Magic, I remember people wondering if Jordan would stay unselfish or now that he had a title try to score even more points. Mostly I remember the story of Drexler's emergence into super-stardom. As it turned out, he wasn't an elite superstar, but at that time most of the NBA experts thought that's where he was headed. Most of the fans, me included, agreed. He finished second in the MVP to Jordan, and took his team to the finals where they lost to Jordan's Bulls. Knowing what happened with Portland from 1992-93 on, I can see why someone now would say; "Drexler at #2 is way too high: but in July of 1992, that seemed about right.

[G.O.A.T]

Wanted to comment on this too.


Personally, the better player to me is the one who makes the biggest impact and contributes the most to his team's success regardless of how far they go.

How is it possible to ignore how far the team goes when measuring the biggest impact on their success is your main criteria?

To me, and I'm not accusing you of this, that is a good way to allow a lot of subjective thinking into an evaluation. It opens the door for "weak supporting cast", "team x is loaded" and other oversimplified arguments. If anything can be learned from recent NBA seasons it's that the talent level of the teams is so close across the board (once you get into the playoffs) that a lot of times it's the intangibles more than raw talent that win out.

Olajuwon probably had more impact on games from 1985-1993 than Michael Jordan, but only a fool would say he was a better player and that fool's even more foolish cousin would say he was a more significant player.

[Bigsmoke]

DRob and Shaq pretty easily above Ewing imo. Pippen at #5 or bumped to #6 by Malone.





in 1993?

He didnt even play that well that season

He had back issues i think

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, I wasn't sure what you were going by, but when I saw Jordan ahead of Magic in '89, I thought it was more best player than anything at first, but it will be easier to discuss now that you'd made your criteria more clear.


As far as 1981, I can't put Kareem first, though everything you say about that season is true, Kareem still got outplayed (slightly) by Malone during the series and the Lakers collapse based on Magic's brooding suggests how important he had become to the team and how little leadership Kareem brought to the table. So while I too think Kareem was, for at least the 11th straight year, the NBA's greatest talent, he did not have the best season by any means.

Well, I think it was going to be tough to win that series with Magic playing as poorly as he did. Outside of who was the best player, I did think that Kareem's play when Magic was out was very impressive and a case for him having an MVP-caliber season. The Lakers went 28-17 and Kareem averaged 29 ppg in those games.

Moses did have the better series vs Kareem as you said, though I did find it impressive that Kareem ended up with more rebounds than Moses in the series. But just to avoid any misconceptions, based on game 2, which I've seen in it's entirety as well as parts of game 1, Billy Paultz was usually guarding Kareem and Jim Chones was usually guarding Moses.


By 1982 it was more Magic's team than Kareem and while Kareem was better, Magic was more important. I respect your perspective on this but the all-NBA and MVP voters, the Lakers owner and fans, my gut, the books I've read on the subject, the historical verdict all favor Magic. From 1982 on, Magic was more important and had more important seasons than Kareem every year.

There was somewhat of a transition in 1982 when Paul Westhead got fired, but hearing both Pat Riley and Magic talk about the transition in '86-'87, it seemed like it was Kareem's team until then.

I consider Kareem not only the better player at this time, but more important because I think if you take Magic off, you still have a fairly complete team with Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper and Jamaal Wilkes on the perimeter. But if you take Kareem off, you have a big problem finding a half court scorer, post player and shot blocker.


If we are asking which player was more talented and if you gave them each their own teams which one would produce more measurable wins, it's probably Kareem through 1984 or 1985, but based on what happen on and off the court and considering all the intangibles, Magic is the clear choice for me.

Well, intangibles and off the court things don't favor Magic, imo in '82 at least. He got Paul Westhead fired and to make matters worse, it was during a winning streak


Thoughts on Barkley vs. Nique in '86? I have been tempted to move McHale up one spot. The Hawks and Celtics meet in the playoffs that year and Nique was pretty shaky despite a regular season where I believe he finished second to Bird in the MVP race.

Barkley played great when Moses went down, but he was too raw for me to put him over Nique in '86. He was more of an all around player, but still learning the game in just his second year. Nique could be a pretty wild player as well with some of the shots he attempted, but I have to go with him.

McHale's defense on Nique that series rather than just Nique struggling is a reason why I'd be tempted to put him over Nique, it showed a part of McHale's game that Nique certainly didn't have. On the other end of the court, Bird embarrassed Nique that series. Bird embarrassed a lot of players, but Nique was a notoriously poor defender and Larry made him look stupid with some of his fakes.


As far as 88-90, the big difference we seem to have is on Isiah. To me he meant too much to too important a team not to find his way into the conversation. Remember that during the Conference Finals and NBA finals he had games where he outplayed MJ and Magic. Despite Zeke posting better numbers in previous years the consensus among his teammates, the Detroit media at the time, Chuck Daly and Isiah himself is that he was a much better player from '88-'90 than in his younger more statistically impressive days.

Well, I haven't ever read much into a statistical decline between Isiah in the mid 80's and '88-'90. I always figured it had more to do with the team. Detroit in the mid 80's was one of the run and gun teams and not nearly as talented as their championship years. By the late 80's and '90, Detroit slowed the game down more than any other team in the league and was playing more of a defensive-minded late 90's/early 00's style than an extreme run and gun mid 80's style which in itself can dramatically alter numbers.

Also, Detroit's team had so many scoring options and went with the hot hand whether it was Isiah or Dumars(and those 2 alternating backcourt roles(, Aguirre or Edwards posting up, and Vinnie Johnson.

But


1990 was the toughest year maybe of all-time for me. Ewing was excellent, but those other five guys were all in their primes and near or at their peak and are all top 25 players all-time to me whereas Ewing isn't even top 40 anymore. (With Wade, Dirk and LeBron passing him in the last two years). Barkley and Olajuwon were simply better (by quite a bit IMO) and Isiah was the best player and MVP for a 60-win repeat Champion. The Pistons and Knicks meet in the playoffs that year and Isiah was as good or better in 4 of 5 games.

Well, in general, Barkley and Olajuwon were better than Ewing throughout their primes, but this is a different case because Ewing was significantly better than any other year of his prime, and it's strange, but sometimes this happens. Part of it was due to Stu Jackson building the offense around him as well as Ewing getting stronger in the offseason and improving his offensive game in addition to being in his physical prime at 27 years old.

Olajuwon wasn't the all around player he was from '93-'95. His skills weren't far off, but he matured a lot as a playmaker and a leader under Rudy T and became a far superior option to run the offense through.

Ewing not only had the superior numbers, team success and all-nba 1st team over Olajuwon that year, but he performed much better in the playoffs. Hakeem was swarmed by LA, which made it tough, and he did make his defensive impact when he wasn't in foul trouble, but he had a subpar series by his standards.

I think in a year to year project, Ewing's '90 season has to be looked at separate from his others. Trust me, I was surprised to watching a bunch of '90 Ewing games and see a much more dominant player than the one I grew up watching on contending teams. I think the quotes from opponents such as Jordan, Mychal Thompson and Magic speak volumes as well as Manute Bol, Bill Musselman and Cotton Fitzsimmons calling Ewing the best center that year.

I don't want to dismiss Isiah's importance for his team, we saw that in '91 when he missed a lot of games and was limited in the playoffs. Dumars filled in at the point, and could do it to nobody's surprise since they used to have him handle the ball with Isiah off the ball, but their record fell off quite a bit with Isiah out.

Detroit was just a much deeper team to me, and their depth/variety of scoring options, along with their defense and rebounding are the things I think about most when I think of that team. If I were to single out any particular player, Isiah was the best.

But if you want to keep Isiah as the best player on a championship team and drop anyone, I'd drop Olajuwon honestly, he was far less significant to that particular season, imo than Ewing or Barkley.


In regards to 1992 Drexler belongs at number two because of the season's narrative. Clyde had been to the Finals in 1990, he had his best season in 1992, with Magic retired the West was up for grabs. Portland, San Antonio, Utah, Houston, Phoneix, they were all 50 win teams with marquee stars and it was Drexlers Blazers who emerged. Clyde finished second in the MVP voting, averaged an impressive 26-7-7 through the 20-some playoff games. Putting Drexler at #2 for the season helps tell the story of the season. As the finals began the pregame talk was of rather or not Glide had soared to MJ's heights. As it turned out, no, but he was as close as anyone else who ever took a shot during the two three-peats.

I understand it more since you said you were looking for more significant seasons rather than just best individual players. Drexler at 2nd in MVP voting and in the finals makes sense.

But I also think that Ewing and the Knicks taking the Bulls to 7 and starting one of the great rivalries also helps tell the story of the season better than Robinson who was sitting out for the season. Pippen maybe as well for '92, not sure where he'd be, but he was a huge part of that season with probably his best playoff run.


In regards to Ewing vs Robinson that year, I had to give Robinson the edge for a few reasons. One he finished third in the MVP voting and actually had an edge or was even in every major traditional statistical category. And while Ewing had a strong final game versus the aging Pistons in round one and the Knicks did battle very hard to push Chicago to seven, that series to me is further evidence why Ewing was never a true superstar. In the final two games in Chicago, which New York needed to win at least one of, Ewing was awful, shooting 13-39 and averaging just 18 points, 8 rebounds and 1 assist. Ewing never went down with a good effort in that era:

Well, Ewing was injured in game 6, and coming back from the injury to force a game 7 in '92 impressed me a lot. I'd rather have Ewing than Robinson going into the playoffs. You're right that Robinson had the statistics, except for scoring.

[G.O.A.T]

I've made some amendments to 1990 & 1992

I like where these lists are at much better now...

1990

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3, Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah
Next Five: Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Bird, Drexler

1992

1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson
Next Five: Pippen, Mullin, Hakeem, Barkley, Rodman

EDIT: Changed my mind on 1992

[NugzHeat3]

Very nice responses Nugz

I only want to comment immediately on my criteria, but rest assured that much of your analysis as well as Shaqattack's have, as I'd hoped, forced me to reconsider or at the least reevaluate my opinions on a number of seasons.

I think your misunderstanding the point of my criteria. I am NOT trying to list the five best players from each season. I am trying to list the guys who had the five most important seasons. The five seasons I would be most proud of as that player or a fan of him. Now talent is obviously very important in making this decision, but more than just that goes into it.
Thanks for clarifying further. I did have a hint what you were basing your rankings on but I was a little confused as well.


Was Shaq a better player than Michael Jordan in 1998? probably.
Did he have a larger overall impact from game to game? I'd say yes.
Would I rather emerge as the future of the NBA in LA, average 28-11-3-3 shooting 60% fro the field or would I rather win the NBA finals on the last shot I ever take (should have been) securing my place as the greatest player of all-time during a season in which I won my fifth MVP? I bet you can guess.

And lets remember how Shaq's season ended. All of his major flaws were exposed and his team was annihilated by the aging Utah Jazz. In game one Shaq was 6-16 from the field while being guarded by Greg Ostertag. In game two the Diesel had just seven rebounds and was not able to score down the stretch as Utah took the lead in the fourth and won. In game three Shaq was awesome, but his 5-13 ft performance made him a non-factor late and Utah again dominated the fourth quarter for a win. Game four completed the sweep, which at this point of Shaq's career was a pretty regular thing. O'Neal's teams were swept out of the '94, '95, '96, '98 and '99 playoffs.

To tell someone Shaq was the leagues most significant player in 1998 only serves to under-emphasize the growth of Shaq under Phil Jackson that made him the most dominant force of the second 30 years of NBA history.
The bolded helps understand your line of thinking and I respect your perspective. I just disagree with that line of thinking because it seems to be rewarding the player of the year more so than the best in the league which I personally feel is what this type of list should be out. It

[jlip]

These are the types of threads that make ISH worth coming to.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

These are the types of threads that make ISH worth coming to.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

Was going to say the same. :cheers:

I'll enjoy reading everybody's response.

[G.O.A.T]

I believe Drexler was given too much importance and simply got more attention than he deserved as Jordan was the face of the league and with Drexler being a SG was chosen as his closest competitor.

yep.


[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Actually, you can accuse me of that since I

[pierce2008mvp]

Jordan was better than Magic in 1988. Won League MVP and DPOY. Magic won the title and didn't even get finals mvp, not to mention had to go thru 3 game 7's with far superior talent just to win.

[jlip]

Jordan was better than Magic in 1988. Won League MVP and DPOY. Magic won the title and didn't even get finals mvp, not to mention had to go thru 3 game 7's with far superior talent just to win.

Serious question...Who do you think truly deserved the '88 Finals MVP based upon their performances for the series, Magic or Worthy?

[pierce2008mvp]

Serious question...Who do you think truly deserved the '88 Finals MVP based upon their performances for the series, Magic or Worthy?
This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

[G.O.A.T]

This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

On what planet was Worthy better in game six?

And it's not like Magic had any bad games in the series. He averaged 21-6-13-2 on 55% shooting. Worthy was a complete non-factor in games three and four in Detroit when the Pistons took control of the series.

[OldSchoolBBall]

in 1993?

He didnt even play that well that season

He had back issues i think

No, that comment was for 1994, as noted.

[OldSchoolBBall]

On what planet was Worthy better in game six?

And it's not like Magic had any bad games in the series. He averaged 21-6-13-2 on 55% shooting. Worthy was a complete non-factor in games three and four in Detroit when the Pistons took control of the series.

Worthy winning FMVP may as well have been to right the injustice that occurred in 1980 when Magic won it over KAJ. Similar situations where one player has the better series, but the other has the better closeout game and thus is fresher/more prominent in voters' minds.

[jlip]

This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

G.O.A.T. beat me to it above, even though I think he meant games 4 and 5 (regarding Worthy's struggles.) Even though I think that Kareem deserved the '80 MVP the circumstances between '88 and '80 were different. Kareem didn't even play the championship clinching game while Magic had a dominating and historic performance. In '88, while Worthy had a dominating clinching game, Magic not only played but yet had a great performance himself although not as impressive as Worthy's. IMO, Worthy's Finals MVP was significantly more a "prisoner of the moment" award than Magic's 80 Finals MVP was.

[Da_Realist]

G.O.A.T. beat me to it above, even though I think he meant games 4 and 5 (regarding Worthy's struggles.) Even though I think that Kareem deserved the '80 MVP the circumstances between '88 and '80 were different. Kareem didn't even play the championship clinching game while Magic had a dominating and historic performance. In '88, while Worthy had a dominating clinching game, Magic not only played but yet had a great performance himself although not as impressive as Worthy's. IMO, Worthy's Finals MVP was significantly more a "prisoner of the moment" award than Magic's 80 Finals MVP was.

I still think Magic deserved it in 88. He played heroically in Game 2 with the flu. He put on a passing clinic in Game 3 (they could make an education video out of this game). And his 19 assists were overshadowed by Isiah's heroics in Game 6. Worthy's performance in Game 7 was epic, though.

[jlip]

I still think Magic deserved it in 88. He played heroically in Game 2 with the flu. He put on a passing clinic in Game 3 (they could make an education video out of this game). And his 19 assists were overshadowed by Isiah's heroics in Game 6. Worthy's performance in Game 7 was epic, though.

I definitely agree. That's the general point I was trying to make to the other poster.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've made some amendments to 1990 & 1992

I like where these lists are at much better now...

1990

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3, Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah
Next Five: Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Bird, Drexler

1992

1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson
Next Five: Pippen, Mullin, Hakeem, Barkley, Rodman

EDIT: Changed my mind on 1992

Glad I could help, interestingly, some of my top 4s and tops 5 were identical despite initially just posting my best player lists.

I do also think that Jordan was easily the most significant player of 1998, but I would like to defend Shaq's '98 WCF. He had a much worse series in '97 when he wasn't swept, but I thought he played very well in '98, and most at the time were saying so as well.

Sports Illustrated article about game 4.


O'Neal had another outstanding game with 38 points, including 11 straight Lakers points down the stretch.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/07/20/jazz_lakers_archive/

From an article after the series.


Except for a poor Game 1, Shaquille O'Neal was magnificent in defeat. And yesterday was no exception.

LA Times article about game 3


Somehow the Lakers have managed to make Shaquille O'Neal irrelevant. No matter what he does, they simply can't beat the Utah Jazz.

When O'Neal had a subpar Game 1, no one else picked up for him. When he came through with 39 points and 15 rebounds in Game 3 Friday night, no one else supported him.

The Lakers can't do anything without him. And they can't do anything if he is the only one out there working.

O'Neal took 30 shots Friday, more than a third of the Laker field-goal attempts. He made 17 and was the only Laker who attempted more than four shots to shoot better than 50%. The way things were going, the Lakers would have been better off with Shaq taking free throws than the rest of the players shooting jumpers.

While the Lakers are getting beat by the likes of Howard Eisley, Chris Morris and Shandon Anderson, none of the other three Laker all-stars--or anyone else, for that matter--can beat the Jazz.

It isn't O'Neal's job to shoot three-pointers, and the Lakers who are supposed to do that have made only 13 of 58 (22%), including five of 19 in Game 3.

Nick Van Exel was one for eight on three-pointers and two for 13 overall in Game 3, which snuffed out his seven assists. Eddie Jones was six for 19.

After Shaq, no other Laker reached double-digits until Jones made a reverse dunk with 10:03 left in the fourth quarter. Even that didn't seem like vintage Jones; the ball hit the rim and crawled over.

Jones tried to be aggressive in the first quarter, but the way the Shaq-oriented Laker offense is set up right now, there's nothing for Jones to do but go one-on-one. It wasn't working.

"If you have a big dominating guy like Shaq, you want to get Shaq the ball, you want him to do his thing," Van Exel said. "I really don't know what we can do. We run a lot of motion sets, but we haven't got much out of them. We want to go to our superstar. That's what we're doing, we're living by it."

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/may/23/sports/sp-52813

That was after a game that Shaq had 39 points and 15 rebounds in, and two other Lakers scored in double figures, Eddie Jones at 16 points on 6/19 shooting and Nick Van Exel on 10 points on 2/13 shooting.

Outside of Shaq, the Lakers offensive players were terrible in the series. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% shooting, while his second option Jones averaged 15 on 41%, Van Exel averaged 9 on 24%, Kobe averaged 10 on 37%, Fox averaged 9.8 on 41%, Fisher averaged 5.5 on 35% and Horry averaged 4.5 on 36%. I don't think anyone could win with that type of support.

I think Shaq does have a case over Malone in '98 for being a more significant player.

As NugzHeat mentioned, George Karl and Bob Weiss were calling Shaq the best post player of all time after his dominant series vs Seattle. He scored at will, while getting double teamed, made great passes out of doubles to set up his teammates and was protecting the paint with a bunch of blocked shots. It was one of his finest all around series. He averaged 31/10/4/4 on 63% shooting in the series.

I think that respected people in the game speaking that highly of Shaq's level of play was more than I've ever heard people say about Malone. But you could argue that Malone being in the finals, beating Shaq's Lakers and having a legitimate case for MVP makes him the right choice for 2nd.

[PTB Fan]

1980
1. Kareem
2. Doctor J
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses[QUOTE]

Pretty much agreed here on all. Kareem's 80 season is arguably the greatest of all time. He had too many historical performances here and played great throughout the entire RS, PS and Finals. Others are fine with me.

[QUOTE]1981
1. Bird
2. Doctor J
3. Moses
4. Kareem
5. Gervin

I've got Moses at No.1 here, Kareem at #2, Doc at #3, Bird at #4 and #5 is Gervin. I decided to go with Moses, simply because few expected the Rockets to get out of the first round, let alone get to the Finals and push Boston to 6 games.

http://news.google.c...es+malone&hl=en

http://news.google.c...1,1394580&hl=en

The second newspaper link is so surprised that they thought the Rockets had no chance at all.

Game: 1

http://news.google.c...3,2965907&hl=en

Celtics win it, with them pretty much dominating the Rockets on the offensive glass. Malone, who was pretty much doing those things to his opponents his entire career, wasn't that dominant on his side of the glass to prevent that as his defensive rebounding wasn't quite that good. This ended as a great advantage for Boston, who won the first game of the series because of this, which is interesting. Larry's praised here for 18/21/9 (yes, near triple double) as well. Moses had 13 points only with 15 boards


Game 2:

http://news.google.c...5,2359187&hl=en

Rockets win it. Moses had 31/15 in this game, and pretty much closed the Celtics in the fourth with being active everywhere. He scored 7 points, blocked two steals, grabbed few boards and had a steal all late to lead his Rockets.


Game 3:

No available article, but in the next article.. Bird was held to 8 points, Moses had 23 points in this and the Celtics D is being praised here.


Game 4:

http://news.google.c...es+malone&hl=en

Rockets tie the series, with Moses 24 points, 21 boards and another guy's huge 28 points.



Game 5:

http://news.google.c...8,6527553&hl=en

Moses records 20/15, but Cornbread Maxwell leads the way for the Celtics with his 28/15. Bird still couldn't break slump with his shooting as he finished 5-15 from field as he finished with 12 points. He recorded 12 boards and eight assists in the game tough.



Game 6:

I can't find an article here, but Bird has 27 points to close it out and Moses finishes with 23. Celtics take the title, FMVP goes to Cornbread even though Bird had 15/15/7 in the series.

So basically Moses' strong play was the main reason why the Rockets won the West and got to the Finals. He outplayed (arguably) Kareem on his way and Larry later on. He didn't win, but i have to give the credit here.




1982
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Gervin

My surprising pick here is Dr J at #1. He had an outstanding RS, played just as good in the postseason and was terrific in the Finals. However, his Philly just didn't have the answer at C for Kareem which is why they lost in all of their match ups expect 83.

#2 is Kareem here

#3 Magic (very close between the two, but i feel that Kareem did more and has a better overall case)

#4 Moses

#5 Bird





1983
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Doctor J
4. Kareem
5. Moncrief


This is definitely Moses' year again. Just outstanding season, one of the top peak performances ever. I agree with #2 in Magic, who has a pretty decent case as well.

Instead of the Doctor, i'd put Gervin here. He had one of his most brilliant seasons in his illustrated career and led the Spurs to the WCF with his great scoring ability. He finally had a good big man in Gilmore to support him but it wasn't enough to stop Magic and LA.

Still, he was amazing. For the rest i agree with Kareem and Moncrief. I feel that Moncrief, although not as popular as the guys mentioned, was great in this season.




1984
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. King
5. Isiah



Bird tops anyone this season. The rest are pretty spot on.



1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

Agreed.




1986
1. Bird
2. Hakeem
3. Magic
4. Nique
5. McHale


Can't argue that . This may be arguably the greatest peak of all time. It has a pretty great case. I'm not sure about the #5, but overall it's OK.



1987
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

Magic was so dominant here. Another of those seasons with great case for the greatest peak season ever. List is fine.


1988
1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

Spot on here again. Maybe Dominique deserves to be mentioned over Isiah at #5, because of him forcing the Celtics to 7 games with those historical performances.. but i can't say Isiah didn't have any historical moments either.

So, it's understandable. List is great again.


1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

Magic at #1 for me. Won the MVP, outplayed Kevin Johnson in head to head playoff series, elevated himself in the PS, made others better and had huge improvements in his games. Had he been healthy, LA would have most likely beat the Pistons.

Jordan is #2. Rest is spot on.


1990 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah

This is a tough season for me. Literally, the four guys you have on the list all have equally strong cases for the No.1 spot. They all do. I'll give the nod to Magic again, though i might be wrong. I'd put the Glide at #5 in this year for obvious reasons.

Though this could be Charles' year as well because i think he was robbed of A MVP. He didn't have another All-Star, but he carried Philly to the second best record in the East and was amazing in the postseason.



1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone

Agreed.



1992 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Glad to see Drexler getting the love here.


1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Seems OK overall.


1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq


Again


1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

Only Shaq at #2 and Robinson at #3.


1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

Call me crazy but i think Payton had the best season here. I know it just doesn't seem right, but he accomplished a historical feat, had a great overall season, played greatly in all the levels and was excellent with his defense on Jordan in the last 2 games of the '96 Finals.

Penny should also get mentioned here. The Magic increased their winning record with Shaq out to 15-1 thanks to him. Also, the Worm was pretty damn good in the Finals, as some even called him Finals MVP.


1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning

Moving on..


1998 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Miller

Jordan at #1 seems correct. I'd put O'Neal at #2. IMO, he also has a great case for the honor here. Rest is good.


1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd

Good list

[PTB Fan]

Glad I could help, interestingly, some of my top 4s and tops 5 were identical despite initially just posting my best player lists.

I do also think that Jordan was easily the most significant player of 1998, but I would like to defend Shaq's '98 WCF. He had a much worse series in '97 when he wasn't swept, but I thought he played very well in '98, and most at the time were saying so as well.

Sports Illustrated article about game 4.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/07/20/jazz_lakers_archive/

From an article after the series.



LA Times article about game 3



http://articles.latimes.com/1998/may/23/sports/sp-52813

That was after a game that Shaq had 39 points and 15 rebounds in, and two other Lakers scored in double figures, Eddie Jones at 16 points on 6/19 shooting and Nick Van Exel on 10 points on 2/13 shooting.

Outside of Shaq, the Lakers offensive players were terrible in the series. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% shooting, while his second option Jones averaged 15 on 41%, Van Exel averaged 9 on 24%, Kobe averaged 10 on 37%, Fox averaged 9.8 on 41%, Fisher averaged 5.5 on 35% and Horry averaged 4.5 on 36%. I don't think anyone could win with that type of support.

I think Shaq does have a case over Malone in '98 for being a more significant player.

As NugzHeat mentioned, George Karl and Bob Weiss were calling Shaq the best post player of all time after his dominant series vs Seattle. He scored at will, while getting double teamed, made great passes out of doubles to set up his teammates and was protecting the paint with a bunch of blocked shots. It was one of his finest all around series. He averaged 31/10/4/4 on 63% shooting in the series.

I think that respected people in the game speaking that highly of Shaq's level of play was more than I've ever heard people say about Malone. But you could argue that Malone being in the finals, beating Shaq's Lakers and having a legitimate case for MVP makes him the right choice for 2nd.

Great post.

I feel that O'Neal will not get the love here because of Michael's MVP and his last championship dominance. Play wise, they're really close with O'Neal being arguably better but it's the accomplishments that will in the end make others vote for #23.

It's surprising how the Lakers managed to do well with all the other guys in the team playing below their normal games. Props to Shaq for his excellence here.

[magnax1]

Though I disagree on some level with a lot of those, I'll just address one for now that I don't understand the logic behind at all.
In 88, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league, and not really by a small margin. Winner of DPOTY, MVP, and then upset the Cavs in the first round by completely carrying his team with an average of 45-5-5 in the series, with fantastic defense on top of it. I don't really know what to say about Magic because I just don't know what you think makes him deserving. He was probably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, but his defense was atrocious at that point, and he played in series where he was clearly not the most impactful player between the two teams. Whatever sort of criteria you use, I just don't see what Magic did that could put him over Jordan.
I don't see Isiah's case over Barkley either, or quite a few players really. Though I'm guessing you didn't add Barkley because his team didn't win much.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great post.

I feel that O'Neal will not get the love here because of Michael's MVP and his last championship dominance. Play wise, they're really close with O'Neal being arguably better but it's the accomplishments that will in the end make others vote for #23.

It's surprising how the Lakers managed to do well with all the other guys in the team playing below their normal games. Props to Shaq for his excellence here.

Well, they didn't do well when his cast wasn't doing anything, that was the problem in the Utah series, but you can see Van Exel saying that they pretty much relied on Shaq getting doubled like in the Seattle series for them to produce, and Utah played him mostly in single coverage eliminated the shots he could set up for teammates.

But I give Shaq credit for not just conceding game 4 down 3-0 in the series after a really tough game 3 loss, it's gotta be tough when you're headed back home and give 39/15 in a desperation attempt to save the series and you get absolutely no support. A lot of players would fold in game 4 rather than score 19 in the 4th.

So while I do think Shaq's leadership was questionable before Phil got there and even after to some extent(in '03 and '04), I have to give him credit for giving his all even when it was pretty much hopeless, while teammates like Van Exel had the nerve to talk about vacation plans in the huddle during an elimination game in a series that he shot 24% in. That's how the most talented team fails to win a title, with attitudes like that.


Though I disagree on some level with a lot of those, I'll just address one for now that I don't understand the logic behind at all.
In 88, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league, and not really by a small margin. Winner of DPOTY, MVP, and then upset the Cavs in the first round by completely carrying his team with an average of 45-5-5 in the series, with fantastic defense on top of it. I don't really know what to say about Magic because I just don't know what you think makes him deserving. He was probably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, but his defense was atrocious at that point, and he played in series where he was clearly not the most impactful player between the two teams. Whatever sort of criteria you use, I just don't see what Magic did that could put him over Jordan.
I don't see Isiah's case over Barkley either, or quite a few players really. Though I'm guessing you didn't add Barkley because his team didn't win much.

Well, as he explained, he's not simply doing best player rankings.

I disagree that Jordan was clearly the best by '88. Bird was arguably better, and had a great case for MVP. Jordan was arguably not even in his true prime yet. The only reason I'm hesitant to choose Bird is the 35% vs Detroit, and he really seemed to get worn down with all of the deep playoff runs and absolutely no bench by '88, and we saw that in part of the Atlanta series and especially the Detroit series when Bird said his slump started with fatigue and then the slump got into his head.

I'm not going to excuse a 35% series, I've criticized Lebron for them in '07 and '08 when he wasn't near the player '88 Bird was, but I have to say that Bird did other things in the series. He took a few more uncharacteristic shots than usual, but passed extremely well as usual, rebounded extremely well and had a very good defensive series, both help defense and individual defense on Dantley. Overall numbers were 19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, 2.7 spg, 1.8 bpg. But if he shoots respectably, Boston has a legitimate chance to beat Detroit.

Magic's '88 season was the worst of his true prime('87-'90), but I think he has to be in the conversation for best player with Bird and Jordan. Jordan's DPOY is also questionable to say the least, I'm a big Jordan fan, but he was not nearly as fundamentally sound as '90-'93 defensively.

[magnax1]

Well, as he explained, he's not simply doing best player rankings.
I know that, but I just don't understand what the case is that Magic was a more important (though I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean) player then Jordan in 88.


I disagree that Jordan was clearly the best by '88. Bird was arguably better, and had a great case for MVP.
I don't really see what Bird's case for MVP is. He was the second best player in the league to me probably, but his team won 7 more games then jordan, and with a pretty massive gap in their teams talents. Boston wasn't the most talented team in the league or anything, but McHale was probably the best post scorer in the league, Parish was still very good, and then Ainge and DJ were both average at least.



Jordan was arguably not even in his true prime yet.
I don't agree with that. I'd say 88 was his third best season.




Magic's '88 season was the worst of his true prime('87-'90), but I think he has to be in the conversation for best player with Bird and Jordan.
I just don't see what either Bird or Magic's argument is. They won more because they had clearly more talented teams. I just can't see Magic or Bird replacing what Jordan did vs the Cavs, but I can easily see Jordan replacing either Magic or Bird considering what he did a few years later as basically the same player with much less talented teams then either of those two.


Jordan's DPOY is also questionable to say the least, I'm a big Jordan fan, but he was not nearly as fundamentally sound as '90-'93 defensively.
That's very true, but he was still probably the best defender at his position while Magic was one of the worst, if not just the worst defender at his position that got big minutes. To me the only things you can really say about Bird and Magic is that they won about 10 more games with a huge talent gap. They didn't have a more impressive playoffs, and they won less awards which always seems to be big with GOAT's criteria.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I know that, but I just don't understand what the case is that Magic was a more important (though I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean) player then Jordan in 88

I think it's the championship, it's always very significant for a player to win a title in a role where they're the clear best player. Led a team to back to back titles for the first time since the Celtics in '69 too.


I don't really see what Bird's case for MVP is. He was the second best player in the league to me probably, but his team won 7 more games then jordan, and with a pretty massive gap in their teams talents. Boston wasn't the most talented team in the league or anything, but McHale was probably the best post scorer in the league, Parish was still very good, and then Ainge and DJ were both average at least.

Well, the 7 win difference is deceptive. The Celtics rested Bird for the final 2 games of the season, they lost both, and one of those was a 7 point loss to Chicago on the last day of the season, and it wasn't just Bird who sat out, it was McHale, and both DJ and Parish played just 7 minutes. Meanwhile, Jordan played 44 minutes and put up 44/6/6.

So if they cared, Boston probably wins 59, and that would probably put Chicago at 49.

Don't forget that McHale was out early, and the Celtics were 10-3 with Bird and without McHale, and 9-2 excluding Bird's 2 limited minute games in that stretch due to injuries. Bird's numbers excluding the limited minute games without McHale were 31.6, 11.4 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.6 FG% and 59.6 TS%.

Stepping up like that without McHale helps his case for MVP.

I'm not opposed to Jordan winning either. I think he was a solid choice, but the extra wins don't hurt, even if he clearly had a better team despite the lack of a bench and McHale being out.


I don't agree with that. I'd say 88 was his third best season.

Really? I'd definitely take '90-'92 as the top 3, followed by '93, then probably '89. Perhaps even '96 and '97 after that. I think he was a smarter, more polished player who played more unselfishly then, he didn't have the same athleticism, but he was stronger and more skilled than '88.

Either way, to me, '88 wouldn't even make Jordan's top 5. '90-'92 are the clear top 3 as far as I'm concerned since they were his best mixes of skills, athleticism, defense and team play. '93 was just slightly behind, but has most of the qualities of '90-'92. And then '89, which saw him improve on his game compared to '88, imo, but it did have some negatives such as looking for triple doubles and the decline in wins despite a better cast on paper than '88.


I just don't see what either Bird or Magic's argument is. They won more because they had clearly more talented teams. I just can't see Magic or Bird replacing what Jordan did vs the Cavs, but I can easily see Jordan replacing either Magic or Bird considering what he did a few years later as basically the same player with much less talented teams then either of those two.

I don't think Jordan was basically the same player in '88 as he was in '90 or '91. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this. I respect your opinions, but we often just see things differently.

But I'm also not sure if Jordan could do what Bird and Magic did on their teams. Was Jordan as good of a fit with more talent at that point? I'm not sure.

And I'm not sure what could really be improved on with the '88 Celtics. Look at the difference in record and offensive rating between '88 and '89 when Bird pretty much didn't play.

They went from a 57-25 team with a 115.4 offensive rating(best in the league) to a 42-40 team with a 110.8 offensive rating(8th best) despite McHale playing 14 more games and Reggie Lewis going from a guy who basically didn't play in '88 to a productive starter and they had a little more depth in '89.

If Bird misses the '88 season, I think they fail to finish .500.


That's very true, but he was still probably the best defender at his position while Magic was one of the worst, if not just the worst defender at his position that got big minutes. To me the only things you can really say about Bird and Magic is that they won about 10 more games with a huge talent gap. They didn't have a more impressive playoffs, and they won less awards which always seems to be big with GOAT's criteria.

It's difficult to compare, they were all in different situations. Magic was easily in the best, but ended up with the title.

[G.O.A.T]

RE 1988:

It's as simply as this. Magic had learned how to win even when he didn't play his best, Jordan hadn't learned how to win even when he did play his best.

Furthermore in the playoffs Magic consistently played his best when it mattered most and Jordan did not at all.

The Lakers were worn out. Their core had been together since the 1984 season and the franchise had made the finals in five of the last six seasons. In the playoffs a hungry and improving Western Conference gave them all they coould handle and Magic always had an answer.

In the second round the Jazz pushed LA to seven games. In game seven Magic shot 9 of 15 from the field made 5 of 6 free throws scored 23 had 9 rebounds and 16 assists.

In the conference finals the Mavericks too forced LA to play the full seven games. In that series finale Magic again was 9 of 15 from the field, went 6 for 6 from the line, scored 24 points had 9 rebounds and 11 assists.

In the NBA finals the Lakers were down three games to two to the Pistons and Magic turned in the following games...

game 6: 22 points 4 rebounds 19 assists 5-12 fg, 12-13 fts
game 7: 19 points 5 rebounds 15 assists 6-9 fg, 7-8 fts

In four games with his team facing elimination Magic Johnson averaged 22 points, 7 rebounds, 15 assists, shot 58% from the field and 90% from the line.

That's what the best player in the league does and that's why the Lakers won their second straight title.

Jordan on the other hand got a lesson in the Jordan Rules from the Bad Boys.

After a strong game two (36 points) which allowed Chicago to steal a game from the Pistons, Detroit put the clamps on MJ holding him to 45% shooting and to 24, 23 and 25 points in the next three games as the Pistons won easily in all three and advanced.

That's the difference. Magic elevated his play and Jordan saw all his numbers go down and his scoring go down by over 25%.

[magnax1]

I think it's the championship, it's always very significant for a player to win a title in a role where they're the clear best player. Led a team to back to back titles for the first time since the Celtics in '69 too.

Maybe. I have trouble understanding what the purpose of ranking players in terms of "importance" is anyway.



Well, the 7 win difference is deceptive. The Celtics rested Bird for the final 2 games of the season, they lost both, and one of those was a 7 point loss to Chicago on the last day of the season, and it wasn't just Bird who sat out, it was McHale, and both DJ and Parish played just 7 minutes. Meanwhile, Jordan played 44 minutes and put up 44/6/6.
Even with a couple more wins, it really doesn't matter. No one else was going to bring that team to 50 wins, or probably even get more then 40.




Really? I'd definitely take '90-'92 as the top 3, followed by '93, then probably '89. Perhaps even '96 and '97 after that. I think he was a smarter, more polished player who played more unselfishly then, he didn't have the same athleticism, but he was stronger and more skilled than '88.
I'd rank his seasons 89, 90, then 91/88. Yeah, he was more skilled later, but I don't think he was a whole lot smarter offensively, and his only two improvements that made a big difference to me are his jumpshot becoming more consistent, and him gambling a lot less on Defense. However on the other end I can't see him scoring 35 ppg for an entire season, or 45 ppg for an entire series with the kind of team mates he had in his 88 year by 91. Stamina degrades quickly after the early/mid 20s, and that age gap makes a big difference. The closest modern equivalent to me is that while I'd take this year's Lebron over any other version, he's been quite clearly tired by a lot of fourth quarters these past 2 years, and I couldnt see him drop 20 straight like in 07, or average 40 ppg over an entire series like in 09.
Also, I think you'd see 88 Jordan play a lot more within the offense and smarter like Jordan in 90 or 91 if he had the same team mates. His team in 88 just didn't really allow it.
Either way, Jordan from 88-93 is better then any other player I've seen a large amount of footage of, so it's just nitpicking really. He still had what I'd consider his greatest series in 93 against the Suns, so he didn't really have a large degradation until his second threepeat.



But I'm also not sure if Jordan could do what Bird and Magic did on their teams. Was Jordan as good of a fit with more talent at that point? I'm not sure.

I don't see why not? His team mates might suffer some since he might have some trouble gelling with a post player, but I think he'd more then make it up with his own production.


And I'm not sure what could really be improved on with the '88 Celtics. Look at the difference in record and offensive rating between '88 and '89 when Bird pretty much didn't play.
They went from a 57-25 team with a 115.4 offensive rating(best in the league) to a 42-40 team with a 110.8 offensive rating(8th best) despite McHale playing 14 more games and Reggie Lewis going from a guy who basically didn't play in '88 to a productive starter and they had a little more depth in '89.
Bird's the second best perimeter player ever to me and I don't think there is any perimeter player ever that could replace him and get better results then Jordan, but I still think there is a clear gap between the two.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Even with a couple more wins, it really doesn't matter. No one else was going to bring that team to 50 wins, or probably even get more then 40.

Difficult to say, but a lot of it comes down to what you value more, carrying a bad team, or elevating an already talented team. I agree that Jordan would be better at carrying a bad team, but in this case, I'd rather have a guy who will fit better on a talented team because you need that to accomplish the ultimate goal. This isn't to say that I don't think Jordan could win a title, but do I think he's better on a talented team at that stage of his career than


I'd rank his seasons 89, 90, then 91/88. Yeah, he was more skilled later, but I don't think he was a whole lot smarter offensively, and his only two improvements that made a big difference to me are his jumpshot becoming more consistent, and him gambling a lot less on Defense. However on the other end I can't see him scoring 35 ppg for an entire season, or 45 ppg for an entire series with the kind of team mates he had in his 88 year by 91. Stamina degrades quickly after the early/mid 20s, and that age gap makes a big difference. The closest modern equivalent to me is that while I'd take this year's Lebron over any other version, he's been quite clearly tired by a lot of fourth quarters these past 2 years, and I couldnt see him drop 20 straight like in 07, or average 40 ppg over an entire series like in 09.
Also, I think you'd see 88 Jordan play a lot more within the offense and smarter like Jordan in 90 or 91 if he had the same team mates. His team in 88 just didn't really allow it.
Either way, Jordan from 88-93 is better then any other player I've seen a large amount of footage of, so it's just nitpicking really. He still had what I'd consider his greatest series in 93 against the Suns, so he didn't really have a large degradation until his second threepeat.

Well, Jordan averaged 34(well 33.6) in 1990 while playing off the ball more, having to learn a new offense and fit into it much more with better teammates than '88, so there's no doubt in my mind he could make up the extra 1.4 ppg in his '88 situation, if not more.

In the ECSF vs Philly, he averaged 43 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 4 spg, 1.2 bpg on 55/39/85 shooting %, so he was obviously still capable of the 45 ppg type series.

Really? '89 Jordan over '90. '90 Jordan didn't have quite as many assists(6.3 vs 8.0) or assists(8.0 vs 6.9), but he scored more(33.6 vs 32.5), and the assists can be explained by him playing in the triangle vs playing PG the last 24 games, and also by not actively pursuing triple doubles as well as Pippen improving a good deal and handling the ball more than in the past, he wasn't quite in his point forward role he'd grow into soon, but averaging 5+ apg.

He added the 3 point shot, and had one of the better 3 point shooting seasons in the league in '90(9th in attempts, 12th in made 3s, and just outside the top 20 in %), while having an even better mid-range shot. His defense also improved, and he was just playing in a style that was easier to win with, though he did carry his team to remarkable success considering his teammates and his opponents in the '89 season.

I lean towards '90 Jordan as the best version, I liked that he had the 3 point shot that year, but didn't rely on it, and did almost everything as good as he ever would with slight exceptions while having pretty much his peak athleticism. He was insanely quick that year, and could elevate in an instant while being wiry strong.

'91 Jordan is virtually the same player as '90 to me. The differences are, he had his minutes limited more so he looked for his shot a bit more early in games, he was a bit stronger, but perhaps not quite as quick, he didn't shoot 3s, and he won a title, while not having to carry the team quite as much. Though that last part goes hand in hand, and is due to them facing a worse Detroit team than '90 as well as Pippen's significant improvement and responsibilities at both ends, Grant improving a bit and the team becoming more comfortable in the triangle.


I don't see why not? His team mates might suffer some since he might have some trouble gelling with a post player, but I think he'd more then make it up with his own production.

It's tough to say since he didn't have the opportunity, it's also speculation really. All we have to go by is what they did that year, and that doesn't fully answer this particular question.


Bird's the second best perimeter player ever to me and I don't think there is any perimeter player ever that could replace him and get better results then Jordan, but I still think there is a clear gap between the two.

I agree in general, those are the 2 best perimeter players, imo as well, and I do think Jordan has a clear edge in the early 90's, but I just don't think the gap between any 80's version of Jordan and Bird is significant either way. But we have disagreements on Jordan's best years so that's the root of our disagreement on that.

'88 Jordan and Bird to me are very close. Too close for me to rank them definitively at this point.

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks for the feedback PTB fan...

I've made some more changes to a number of years, really enjoying the research with this project.

[eliteballer]

Hill not top 5 in any year from 95-99??

[Boston C's]

man GOAT you have been sorely missed here... this thread like someone else posted really makes it worth coming to ish... a lot of intelligent responses and shaqattack as usual giving great feedback... will def give my two cents later when i have the time

btw what do you guys see happening in the celtics vs heat game tonight...sadly i work til 1030 and will frantically be checking my phone for updates but would like to hear predictions

[G.O.A.T]

Hill not top 5 in any year from 95-99??

I'm a Pistons fan who lived in Detroit during Hill's entire run here. Never at anytime was he as valued here as he was nationally. He probably was a top 5 talent for a few of those years, never did he have a top five most significant season.

[G.O.A.T]

I just don't see what either Bird or Magic's argument is. They won more because they had clearly more talented teams. I just can't see Magic or Bird replacing what Jordan did vs the Cavs, but I can easily see Jordan replacing either Magic or Bird considering what he did a few years later as basically the same player with much less talented teams then either of those two.

He wasn't even remotely the same player. The three Pistons series made his game evolve at a greater rate than any other point of his career. That's the point that my rankings make.

You always seem to struggle with this, you're stuck on the idea of skill A + skill B + skill c = a players value. That's not how it works.

As a modern example LeBron James won a higher percentage of games with a less talented Cleveland team than he has with Miami. That doesn't mean he's regressed as a player, it means the circumstances and thus his role/impact/significance are.



To me the only things you can really say about Bird and Magic is that they won about 10 more games with a huge talent gap. They didn't have a more impressive playoffs, and they won less awards which always seems to be big with GOAT's criteria.

Winning regular season games was not important to Magic and Bird at that point, winning titles was. Bird wasn't healthy in the playoffs and Magic played much better than Jordan as I have illustrated.

Jordan's numbers vs. the Cavs were a symptom of the circumstances. His team needed him to shoulder that much of a load to win and thus, huge stats. Think of it like Magic's stat line in game 6 of the 1980 finals. Kareem's presence didn't make Magic a worse player, it made his role less conducive to posting huge numbers.

When Jordan faced the Pistons, he was not able to play the same way effectively and his team lost.

If Jordan was essentially the same player three years later he'd have never won the title, he'd have gotten housed again and again and again.

[pierce2008mvp]

RE 1988:

It's as simply as this. Magic had learned how to win even when he didn't play his best, Jordan hadn't learned how to win even when he did play his best.

Furthermore in the playoffs Magic consistently played his best when it mattered most and Jordan did not at all.

The Lakers were worn out. Their core had been together since the 1984 season and the franchise had made the finals in five of the last six seasons. In the playoffs a hungry and improving Western Conference gave them all they coould handle and Magic always had an answer.

In the second round the Jazz pushed LA to seven games. In game seven Magic shot 9 of 15 from the field made 5 of 6 free throws scored 23 had 9 rebounds and 16 assists.

In the conference finals the Mavericks too forced LA to play the full seven games. In that series finale Magic again was 9 of 15 from the field, went 6 for 6 from the line, scored 24 points had 9 rebounds and 11 assists.

In the NBA finals the Lakers were down three games to two to the Pistons and Magic turned in the following games...

game 6: 22 points 4 rebounds 19 assists 5-12 fg, 12-13 fts
game 7: 19 points 5 rebounds 15 assists 6-9 fg, 7-8 fts

In four games with his team facing elimination Magic Johnson averaged 22 points, 7 rebounds, 15 assists, shot 58% from the field and 90% from the line.

That's what the best player in the league does and that's why the Lakers won their second straight title.

Jordan on the other hand got a lesson in the Jordan Rules from the Bad Boys.

After a strong game two (36 points) which allowed Chicago to steal a game from the Pistons, Detroit put the clamps on MJ holding him to 45% shooting and to 24, 23 and 25 points in the next three games as the Pistons won easily in all three and advanced.

That's the difference. Magic elevated his play and Jordan saw all his numbers go down and his scoring go down by over 25%.

Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.7
8. Magic Johnson*-LAL 23.1


Win Shares
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 21.2
6. Magic Johnson*-LAL 10.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI .308
8. Magic Johnson*-LAL .199


Jordan outproduced Magic by too much that year to be behind him.

Player Efficiency Rating (Playoffs)

2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.4
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 22.9


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

2. Michael Jordan*-CHI .234
5. Danny Schayes-DEN .208
Magic Johnson .198

the only reason his win share was high was because he played in 24 games.
to me it boils down to the fact he won neither league nor finals mvp that year and wasn't the best statistically either.

[NugzHeat3]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]yep.




The only way someone is inconsistent in that stance is when they then don't apply the same logic to a superstar with more help having lower stats.

Also there needs to be levels of contributions. For example Dwight Howard was the sole reason Orlando was a playoff team this year, in that sense he is more valuable than LeBron or Durant. But LeBron and Durant's contributions in the playoffs are more important than Howards in the regular season.

I don't think we really disagree here, I'm just talking out my way of looking at it.



The tough part with that is determining how much impact a superstar has on his lesser teammates performance. During the Lakers three-peat Shaq was lauded for his passing out of double teams and impact as a defensive anchor. He got shots for the Horrys, Harpers, Fishers and Foxs' and covered up for their inadequacies on defense.

On a pure talent level, the Van Exel, Jones, Elden Campbell, Fox, Horry, Fisher and lets just say top-notch sixth man core, was as good or better as what Malone had around him in those '98 playoffs. Stockton, Hornacek an over the hill Big Dog Carr and 4-5 guys that never had an impact on any other roster.

BTW, I 100% disagree with Olajuwon having more impact than Jordan from 1985-1993. It

[G.O.A.T]

Player Efficiency Rating
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.7
8. Magic Johnson*-LAL 23.1


Win Shares
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 21.2
6. Magic Johnson*-LAL 10.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI .308
8. Magic Johnson*-LAL .199


Jordan outproduced Magic by too much that year to be behind him.

Player Efficiency Rating (Playoffs)

2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.4
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 22.9


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

2. Michael Jordan*-CHI .234
5. Danny Schayes-DEN .208
Magic Johnson .198

the only reason his win share was high was because he played in 24 games.
to me it boils down to the fact he won neither league nor finals mvp that year and wasn't the best statistically either.

For reasons like this I don;t pay much attention to advanced stats. They are make believe numbers based on presumed values. In this instance you can see how misleading the figures are. No one who watched the two play would suggest Jordan to be twice as valuable as Magic to any team.

What you have in this instance is one team, the Lakers, built around sharing the ball and coming off a four finals in five years. For them to be successful Magic did not need to have a big regular season and they would be better served to have a rested core of players come April, May and June. On the other hand, the Bulls were a team that relied very heavily on Michael Jordan to make them competitive. It was imperative for Jordan to have a huge statistical season for them to even survive April and get to play in May.

At that point Michael Jordan was probably a better player than Magic, certainly he was more physically gifted. But if your team was in the Finals, you'd take Magic over Michael without thinking.

A modern comparison, the 2007 NBA Finals. LeBron may have been better than Tim Duncan, but Tim Duncan knew how to win and at that time, for that purpose, he was the more valuable, significant guy

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]I would say we are much closer than we initially thought we were.

Generally speaking, I agree that big men are more impactful than guards though it's changed now for the reasons you stated. Rule changes have really made it harder for big men and the lack of true big men is a major factor as well with more bigs being perimeter oriented and being used to space the floor.

But Jordan is an exception to the rule though.

I can't agree with Hakeem impacting the game more than he did and I've watched plenty of the two from the 1985-1993 stretch you listed.

All the intangibles such as competitiveness, leading by example, vocal leadership, unselfishness, being able to adjust to any given situation ect are actually part of impact to me since impact isn't strictly what a player does on the court hence why I stated earlier we might have different definitions of impact. These things only further set the two apart.

But going by your criteria, let's say intangibles aren't a part of impact.

- Jordan was a way better scorer and does it on much better efficiency. It's only their FG% that's comparable and Jordan actually has en edge by the slightest of margins which is pretty immense considering Jordan is a guard and Hakeem is a C. Jordan also draws a lot more fouls and hits free throws at a higher rate and towards the end of that stretch, he developed a very respectable 3 point jumpshot as well meaning he was a much more versatile scorer, had a more varied skillset and was putting much more pressure on the defense. After Phil took over, Jordan showed the willingness to adjust and take more of an off-ball role allowing his teammates to grow, was able to blend into the team concept while Hakeem didn't do so until Rudy T arrived.

- Jordan as a guard can initiate offense and play the role of a distributor as shown in series like the 1991 finals and stretches such as late in 1989 where he played PG. He can evade, split and break down double and triple teams more easily than a C due to superior passing ability and the nature of the game.

- He doesn't need the ball delivered to him in the clutch or when you need a desperation play and he was uber clutch in such situations, not to say Hakeem wasn't clutch because he definitely was but having the ball from the get-go in your best player's hands is a huge benefit and advantage to have. This is a huge edge.

- Jordan was the better playoff performer for sure.

- Hakeem's edge as a defender (defensive rebounds included) is pretty big and a lot of that has to do with the nature of the game. No slight on Jordan though who was a great defender in his own right and the best defensive G I've seen. At times, I can even say Jordan's defense could be equally effective when going up against a speed demon that's penetrating the lane, drawing defenders and dishing or a team that primarily did damage with perimeter shooting since a big man's ability to block shots and clog the lane doesn't have a whole lot of value in that case. For the most part though, Hakeem's defense was much more valuable.

Jordan's offensive dominance and I value that a lot come playoff time the fact that

[ShaqAttack3234]

Stamina degrades quickly after the early/mid 20s, and that age gap makes a big difference. The closest modern equivalent to me is that while I'd take this year's Lebron over any other version, he's been quite clearly tired by a lot of fourth quarters these past 2 years, and I couldnt see him drop 20 straight like in 07, or average 40 ppg over an entire series like in 09.

Missed this part of the post, I don't think players usually lose enough physically to really change much until they're at least approaching 30 barring injury and pretty rare exceptions.

I don't have any trouble seeing Lebron going on a hot streak like that. A game like the game 5 vs Detroit is a once in a lifetime type game, but it'd actually seem like less of a fluke if he did it now than in '07 because I expected him to miss jump shots in '07, I expect him to make a lot now, combined with the fact that he's always been a guy who could get incredibly hot. His improved shot selection arguably makes hot streaks less likely, but I think he's capable of duplicating those feats.

And I don't think stamina is a problem with Lebron, he's lost a bit of athleticism, though.


He wasn't even remotely the same player. The three Pistons series made his game evolve at a greater rate than any other point of his career. That's the point that my rankings make.

Agreed to some extent, except I don't think the last loss vs Detroit in '90 changed him. I think he was already there, but the team still had to catch up, which they did in '91, not that Chicago was all that far off in '90, taking a phenomenal Piston team to 7. Pippen made a huge improvement all around, Grant improved, the team had become more comfortable in the triangle, and it didn't hurt that Detroit clearly wasn't the same team in '91 as they were in '90, similar in talent, but not in dominance, particularly due to Isiah's injury.


If Jordan was essentially the same player three years later he'd have never won the title, he'd have gotten housed again and again and again.

I don't entirely agree with this point, as I've stated I think that 90's Jordan was a better player, and a player who was more suited to playing with talent than 80's Jordan, but I still think 80's Jordan was more than capable of winning it all given the right circumstances.



A modern comparison, the 2007 NBA Finals. LeBron may have been better than Tim Duncan, but Tim Duncan knew how to win and at that time, for that purpose, he was the more valuable, significant guy

Not only do I think that Duncan was more valuable and a guy you would win more with than Lebron in 2007, but I also thought he was still clearly the better player. Lebron's jump shot was simply broken that year, and it translated to free throw shooting as well. Plus, he wasn't the great two-way player he is now, while Duncan still was, and outside of free throw shooting had virtually no glaring weaknesses.

[G.O.A.T]

Here's the lists from the last 12 seasons, including the next five for each season

2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
Next Five: Payton, Malone, Iverson, Kobe, Kidd


2001
1. Shaq
2. Iverson
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Webber
Next Five: Garnett, McGrady, Allen, Kidd, Carter

2002
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Garnett
5. Kidd
Next Five: McGrady, Webber, Pierce, Dirk, Payton

2003
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Kobe
4. McGrady
5. Shaq
Next Five: Kidd, Dirk, B. Wallace, Iverson, Pierce

2004
1. Garnett
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. B. Wallace
Next Five: J. O'Neal. McGrady, Billups, Kidd, Dirk

2005
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Nash
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Iverson, Garnett, LeBron, Billups

2006
1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. Duncan
Next Five: Nash, LeBron, Billups, Iverson, Brand

2007
1. Duncan
2. LeBron
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Amare, Kidd, Garnett, Yao

2008
1. Garnett
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Pierce
5. LeBron
Next Five: Duncan, Howard, Amare, D-Williams, McGrady

2009
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: Gasol, Billups, Carmelo, Paul, Roy

2010
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Durant
5. Dirk
Next Five: Wade, Gasol, Nash, D-Will, Carmelo

2011
1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. D-Rose
5. Durant
Next Five: Howard, Kobe, Amare, Z-Bo, Westbrook



Need to do some revising here...help me with your thoughts.

[Coffee Black]

Here's the lists from the last 12 seasons, including the next five for each season

2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
Next Five: Payton, Malone, Iverson, Kobe, Kidd


2001
1. Shaq
2. Iverson
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Webber
Next Five: Garnett, McGrady, Allen, Kidd, Carter

2002
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Garnett
5. Kidd
Next Five: McGrady, Webber, Pierce, Dirk, Payton

2003
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Kobe
4. McGrady
5. Shaq
Next Five: Kidd, Dirk, B. Wallace, Iverson, Pierce

2004
1. Garnett
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. B. Wallace
Next Five: J. O'Neal. McGrady, Billups, Kidd, Dirk

2005
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Nash
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Iverson, Garnett, LeBron, Billups

2006
1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. Duncan
Next Five: Nash, LeBron, Billups, Iverson, Brand

2007
1. Duncan
2. LeBron
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Amare, Kidd, Garnett, Yao

2008
1. Garnett
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Pierce
5. LeBron
Next Five: Duncan, Howard, Amare, D-Williams, McGrady

2009
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: Gasol, Billups, Carmelo, Paul, Roy

2010
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Durant
5. Dirk
Next Five: Wade, Gasol, Nash, D-Will, Carmelo

2011
1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. D-Rose
5. Durant
Next Five: Howard, Kobe, Amare, Z-Bo, Westbrook



Need to do some revising here...help me with your thoughts.

I think Kobe should be 1 in 2008, and Kidd should be in the top 5 for 2003. In 2003 I have:
1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Shaq
4. Garnett
5. Kidd

[G.O.A.T]

I think Kobe should be 1 in 2008

Can't do it. Garnett was better in the finals and his team won the title against Kobe and the Lakers convincingly. I thought Kobe was the right choice for regular season MVP and I think he was better than KG at that point, but KG had the more significant season.

[Coffee Black]

Can't do it. Garnett was better in the finals and his team won the title against Kobe and the Lakers convincingly. I thought Kobe was the right choice for regular season MVP and I think he was better than KG at that point, but KG had the more significant season.

I don't know about all that. I remember Pierce being more significant in the playoffs, especially against Cleveland and LA. Plus Kobe played great in the playoffs, except for the finals.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't know about all that. I remember Pierce being more significant in the playoffs, especially against Cleveland and LA. Plus Kobe played great in the playoffs, except for the finals.

Pierce had the great game seven versus Cleveland and he did have some big moments against Kobe in the finals. He had three big scoring games which got him the Finals MVP. Overall he was great in the Celtics closeout games. But Pierce also had a 6 point game on 2-14 shooting in the finals. He scored four points one game versus Cleveland on the same numbers. He averaged just 14-4-4 on 35% shooting for the three games in Cleveland. He averaged 14-6-2 on 35% at Detroit in games 3 and 4. The point is he wasn't consistently the reason they won or lost.

That Celtics team won because of team defense. Neither Pierce nor Allen ever had a reputation as good defenders. That season Boston was the leagues top defense and it was Garnett who made it all possible.

In addition, Garnett was just more consistent. He lead the team in scoring for the playoffs at over 20 a game and added 11 rebounds. He never scored less than 13 points. He shot better than Pierce from the line and from the field. KG had double figure rebounds in every game in the finals and at least 8 rebounds in 18 of the teams final 20 playoff games. Kobe was phenomonal against the Spurs, but the Celtics defense proved to be a different animal. Bryant did not play well by his own standards in that series. That's why KG trumps him.

[Bigsmoke]

lol @ Dwight over LeBron in 2009

[Shep]

2000
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. tim duncan
4. alonzo mourning
5. kevin garnett
6. gary payton
7. chris webber
8. karl malone
9. david robinson
10. jason kidd

2001
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. allen iverson
4. tim duncan
5. vince carter
6. chris webber
7. tracy mcgrady
8. keven garnett
9. gary payton
10. david robinson

2002
1. shaquille o'neal
2. tim duncan
3. kobe bryant
4. chris webber
5. jason kidd
6. paul pierce
7. allen iverson
8. baron davis
9. kevin garnett
10. gary payton

2003
1. tim duncan
2. kevin garnett
3. shaquille o'neal
4. jason kidd
5. kobe bryant
6. dirk nowitzki
7. ben wallace
8. tracy mcgrady
9. allen iverson
10. chris webber

2004
1. kevin garnett
2. shaquille o'neal
3. tim duncan
4. ben wallace
5. kobe bryant
6. jermaine o'neal
7. andrei kirilenko
8. jason kidd
9. ron artest
10. baron davis

2005
1. tim duncan
2. dwyane wade
3. kevin garnett
4. lebron james
5. tracy mcgrady
6. dirk nowitzki
7. amare stoudemire
8. shawn marion
9. steve nash
10. ben wallace

2006
1. dwyane wade
2. lebron james
3. dirk nowitzki
4. elton brand
5. tim duncan
6. shawn marion
7. allen iverson
8. andrei kirilenko
9. kobe bryant
10. chauncey billups

2007
1. tim duncan
2. lebron james
3. tracy mcgrady
4. jason kidd
5. dirk nowitzki
6. kevin garnett
7. steve nash
8. shawn marion
9. elton brand
10. baron davis

2008
1. chris paul
2. lebron james
3. kevin garnett
4. kobe bryant
5. tim duncan
6. dwight howard
7. yao ming
8. paul pierce
9. pau gasol
10. david west

2009
1. lebron james
2. dwight howard
3. kobe bryant
4. dwyane wade
5. chris paul
6. pau gasol
7. rajon rondo
8. dirk nowitzki
9. carmelo anthony
10. brandon roy

2010
1. lebron james
2. kobe bryant
3. pau gasol
4. dwight howard
5. rajon rondo
6. dwyane wade
7. chris paul
8. deron williams
9. josh smith
10. dirk nowitzki

2011
1. lebron james
2. dwyane wade
3. derrick rose
4. dirk nowitzki
5. chris paul
6. dwight howard
7. russell westbrook
8. kevin durant
9. jason kidd
10. rajon rondo

[G.O.A.T]

edited

[G.O.A.T]

Here's the lists from the last 13 seasons, including the next five for each season and now updated with this years complete list

2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
Next Five: Payton, Malone, Iverson, Kobe, Kidd


2001
1. Shaq
2. Iverson
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Webber
Next Five: Garnett, McGrady, Allen, Kidd, Carter

2002
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Garnett
5. Kidd
Next Five: McGrady, Webber, Pierce, Dirk, Payton

2003
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Kobe
4. McGrady
5. Shaq
Next Five: Kidd, Dirk, B. Wallace, Iverson, Pierce

2004
1. Garnett
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. B. Wallace
Next Five: J. O'Neal. McGrady, Billups, Kidd, Dirk

2005
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Nash
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Iverson, Garnett, LeBron, Billups

2006
1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. Duncan
Next Five: Nash, LeBron, Billups, Iverson, Brand

2007
1. Duncan
2. LeBron
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Amare, Kidd, Garnett, Yao

2008
1. Garnett
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Pierce
5. LeBron
Next Five: Duncan, Howard, Amare, D-Williams, McGrady

2009
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: Gasol, Billups, Carmelo, Paul, Roy

2010
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Durant
5. Dirk
Next Five: Wade, Gasol, Nash, D-Will, Carmelo

2011
1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. D-Rose
5. Durant
Next Five: Howard, Kobe, Amare, Z-Bo, Westbrook

2012
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Wade
5. Howard
Next Five: Kobe, Parker, Westbrook, Garnett, Love (also considered Duncan, Rondo & Dirk)

[RRR3]

LeBron 3rd in 2009 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[West-Side]

Here's the lists from the last 13 seasons, including the next five for each season and now updated with this years complete list

2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
Next Five: Payton, Malone, Iverson, Kobe, Kidd


2001
1. Shaq
2. Iverson
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Webber
Next Five: Garnett, McGrady, Allen, Kidd, Carter

2002
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Garnett
5. Kidd
Next Five: McGrady, Webber, Pierce, Dirk, Payton

2003
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Kobe
4. McGrady
5. Shaq
Next Five: Kidd, Dirk, B. Wallace, Iverson, Pierce

2004
1. Garnett
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. B. Wallace
Next Five: J. O'Neal. McGrady, Billups, Kidd, Dirk

2005
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Nash
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Iverson, Garnett, LeBron, Billups

2006
1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. Duncan
Next Five: Nash, LeBron, Billups, Iverson, Brand

2007
1. Duncan
2. LeBron
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
Next Five: McGrady, Amare, Kidd, Garnett, Yao

2008
1. Garnett
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Pierce
5. LeBron
Next Five: Duncan, Howard, Amare, D-Williams, McGrady

2009
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Wade
5. Dirk
Next Five: Gasol, Billups, Carmelo, Paul, Roy

2010
1. Kobe
2. Howard
3. LeBron
4. Durant
5. Dirk
Next Five: Wade, Gasol, Nash, D-Will, Carmelo

2011
1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. D-Rose
5. Durant
Next Five: Howard, Kobe, Amare, Z-Bo, Westbrook

2012
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Wade
5. Howard
Next Five: Kobe, Parker, Westbrook, Garnett, Love (also considered Duncan, Rondo & Dirk)

In 2001; Kobe is clearly better than Iverson. :oldlol:
In 2003; Kobe was better than Garnett to me. Him & Duncan were tied for the best players in the league that year. 30/7/6 on 56 TS% & 26 PER for Kobe.
In 2007; Kobe was the best player in the league. This is some type of sick joke. Steve Nash better? :facepalm
In 2008; Kobe was easily better than Garnett. Besides great defense, I don't even remember much from KG in the finals. It was Pierce killing us with timely momentum shifting shots.
In 2009; it's a toss up between LeBron & Kobe. I'd give the edge to LeBron. Howard wasn't on their tier. Kobe destroyed him in the finals.

It seems to me you're placing too much emphasis on winning rather than individual play.