This year has been ideal for Lebron's legacy

[ShaqAttack3234]

Initially, I thought a title wouldn't alter Lebron's ranking too much on my list(I had him around top 15) because of the incredible amount of help with Wade as a top 3-4 player and then Bosh as a 7-time all-star and 3rd option.

But Wade has clearly fallen off this year, and is now arguably not one of the top 5 best players in the game, and Bosh was out for almost all of the ECSF and ECF before making a big impact last night. And because the big 3 wasn't the same for this run, it caused Lebron to do a lot more than he had to last year to reach the finals. He had a strong playoff run last season to reach the finals, but is now having an all-time great playoff run.

Lebron is playing at the historic level I knew he was capable of, and did what I expected him to by still winning with help that's not as spectacular as last year, or how they looked on paper entering the playoffs.

I didn't think he'd ever top his '09 season, but if he does his job in the finals, I may have to call this his best season. He can really erase all of the criticism. I was concerned that Lebron was relying too much on all of his transition opportunities this year, but it hasn't mattered since he's been able to get them in the postseason.

31/10/5 on 51% through the first 3 rounds and excellent defense plus 34/11/4 on 53% + excellent defense vs the league's best defensive team in the ECF. It didn't hurt that Wade was the primary focus of Boston's defense, but I'd have to call this Lebron's best series.

They have a tough task ahead, OKC has their own big 3 and probably more talent outside of their big 3 than Miami, and they have the second best player in the league(yes...second best, Lebron is still the best player in the league, and this is the season it's been the most obvious).

But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time. He had some bad luck in '09, playing at a level easily high enough to win a title, and had lost the Orlando series due two last second shots, his supporting cast playing below their standards and Orlando providing terrible match up problems, particularly Howard and Lewis.

[chips93]

his apparent growth mentally, how hes matued has really impressed me

and you also have to take into account that hes played out of position for almost the entire playoffs at this point, and he hasnt missed a beat


But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time. He had some bad luck in '09, playing at a level easily high enough to win a title, and had lost the Orlando series due two last second shots, his supporting cast playing below their standards and Orlando providing terrible match up problems, particularly Howard and Lewis.

you mean, if he retires after the season, hes 11th all time?

i cant see him above any of:
jordan
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
russell
duncan
kobe
shaq
hakeem
moses

if he continues at his pace, and picks up a ring or two, he can peak at top 5 imo, but not for a good few more years

EDIT: i mean, best case scenario for lebron, and he ends up beneath the top 6 best guys, right at number 7

[guy]

But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time.

I agree. At the same time though, I still think thats a pretty significant IF.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, to all that you said. While there is this thing that wonders if he will go zombie this year like last year, I really think its behind him. I think he will solidify his spot as the man and will finish even stronger. I never seen a player who can consistently cross the 30 point plateau and not look like he's hogging the ball, heck, he even defers when getting his. He plays great all around ball... team ball, smart ball, and with great awareness of how the game is developing.

[PickernRoller]

Shaq doesn't believe in IF's......being riding that nut since Lebron was drafted in the league.

[KingBeasley08]

Shaq doesn't believe in IF's......being riding that nut since Lebron was drafted in the league.
OPs one of the most knowledgable and unbiased posters on ISH. You're just blindd by hate :oldlol:

[jlauber]

11th?

I don't see him there yet.

Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt in any order for 1-4.

Kareem with a dropoff to #5.

Shaq and Duncan in a tie at #6

Kobe at #8
Bird at #9
Moses at #10
Hakeem at #11

If he wins two titles, and assuming he is the FMVP in both, then he will be knocking on Kobe's door.

[Rose]

It depends. If he doesn't win again, he gets the asterisk for the Rose/Dwight injuries more so the Rose than the Dwight.

[StateOfMind12]

If he wins a title this season and in dominating fashion in the Finals against Durant and the Thunder then he'll surpass Kobe in my book.

If he doesn't win it all this season but he doesn't choke in the Finals then I would probably put him in the top 11-15 range.

If he chokes again this season and loses then I'm probably just going to leave him where he is or boost him up 2-3 spots but nothing more.

[jlauber]

I mentioned it in another topic, but Lebron, barring injuries, probably has 7-8 quality seasons left, and perhaps as many as 10+ overall. There is really no limit on high he can go. I think by the time he retires he could very well be in the Top-5 discussions.

[guy]

I mentioned it in another topic, but Lebron, barring injuries, probably has 7-8 quality seasons left, and perhaps as many as 10+ overall. There is really no limit on high he can go. I think by the time he retires he could very well be in the Top-5 discussions.

What do you mean by quality? 10+ means he'd be 37 and in his 19th season. Not to mention, he's played alot more minutes and taken bigger roles then other HS players like Kobe and KG did at that point of their careers.

[jlauber]

What do you mean by quality? 10+ means he'd be 37 and in his 19th season.

EXACTLY. 7-8 quality seasons, and another few where he will be a good player.

I don't expect a 36 or 37 year old to be near the player he was when he was 30, but there have been a few players who were still relatively dominant at 35-36 (Wilt, Kareem, K Malone.)

[Rose]

What do you mean by quality? 10+ means he'd be 37 and in his 19th season. Not to mention, he's played alot more minutes and taken bigger roles then other HS players like Kobe and KG did at that point of their careers.
Agreed, before this year his best was 2009, and that looked like his peak, so going into this year. I thought he could be like maybe 5% off that high this year . Now it could be either or, I'd tend to lean towards 09 though. No guy in NBA history has logged as many minutes as fast as he has, nor with the type of frame he has either. So who really knows? I'd say he's got 2-5 at this or near this level. And then a slow and steady decline thereafter.

[ShaqAttack3234]

his apparent growth mentally, how hes matued has really impressed me

and you also have to take into account that hes played out of position for almost the entire playoffs at this point, and he hasnt missed a beat



you mean, if he retires after the season, hes 11th all time?

i cant see him above any of:
jordan
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
russell
duncan
kobe
shaq
hakeem
moses

if he continues at his pace, and picks up a ring or two, he can peak at top 5 imo, but not for a good few more years

I don't see Lebron top 5. But if he wins a ring, he would've match the other guys right in or near the 11-15 range or in the discussion(Moses, Oscar, KG, West) and obviously the others(Barkley, Malone) don't have one. And he'd have the better peak and better prime. I pretty much rank players based on how good their primes or extended primes are.

He's proven to be better than those guys, imo, he was just lacking a ring, and wouldn't be any more. His level of play puts him towards the lower part of the top 10s, or at least comprable with those guys.

Lebron is 4 years into his prime, imo, which is probably a year or 2 away from the distance of a normal prime. That's most of what I need to determine how good he is, a ring will prove something, though. Multiple rings and he has a case for top 10.


11th?

I don't see him there yet.

Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt in any order for 1-4.

Kareem with a dropoff to #5.

Shaq and Duncan in a tie at #6

Kobe at #8
Bird at #9
Moses at #10
Hakeem at #11

If he wins two titles, and assuming he is the FMVP in both, then he will be knocking on Kobe's door.

We're not going to come close to agreeing on a top 10 list at all. I'm fine with Russell in the top 3, I have a hard time placing him because he was arguably the best relative to his era(the entire point of the game is to win), but I do factor in how well I think games would translate across eras, which is where he becomes less clear. But I have a higher opinion of him than I did.

But Hakeem outside the top 10 is just a bad joke to me, especially behind a guy like Moses, who only had rebounding over Hakeem, while Hakeem at everything else, including an extra ring and finals appearance with less help for the rings.

Magic over Kareem is also a bad joke to me, especially an apparent gap.

[jlauber]

I don't see Lebron top 5. But if he wins a ring, he would've match the other guys right in or near the 11-15 range or in the discussion(Moses, Oscar, KG, West) and obviously the others(Barkley, Malone) don't have one. And he'd have the better peak and better prime. I pretty much rank players based on how good their primes or extended primes are.

He's proven to be better than those guys, imo, he was just lacking a ring, and wouldn't be any more. His level of play puts him towards the lower part of the top 10.



We're not going to agree on a top 10 list at all. I'm fine with Russell in the top 3, I have a hard time placing him because he was arguably the best relative to his era(the entire point of the game is to win), but I do factor in how well I think games would translate across eras, which is where he becomes less clear. But I have a higher opinion of him than I did.

But Hakeem outside the top 10 is just a bad joke to me, especially behind a guy like Moses, who only had rebounding over Hakeem, while Hakeem at everything else, including an extra ring and finals appearance with less help for the rings.

Magic over Kareem is also a bad joke to me, especially an apparent gap.

You're right...we'll never agree.

Moses was the most dominant player in the NBA from '79 thru '85 (yes, even more dominant than Kareem in '80 when Kareem won his last MVP.) And H2H, Moses BATTERED everyone. He was relentless and unstoppable in that span.

IMHO, Hakeem had two post-season series in which his entire career was built. He outplayed Ewing in '94, and he pounded Robison in '95 (and Robinson basically matched him in their 42 other H2H's.) And you will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (when Hakeem's TEAMMATES just overwhelmed Shaq's) In fact, Shaq ABUSED Hakeem in the majority of their H2H's. He was only regarded as the best player in the league in ONE season, and only a top-4 player FOUR times in his 18 season career, and in fact, was not even listed as top-10 in EIGHT. He also led his teams to eight first-round exits.

And Kareem had too many flop jobs in big games, entire series, and even entire post-seasons. He played in poorly in some, and was outplayed in several. Which is something that the Wilt-detractors can't claim. And Kareem was handed a ring in '88 (he was AWFUL in that post-season, and even WORSE in the Finals), and I honestly believe that the '87 Lakers would have romped to a title with Green and Thompson playing more time, and without Kareem.

I stand by Magic over Kareem. He won a ring while Kareem was watching the game from his couch. He won 63 games the year after he retired. And he followed that up by taking an over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record in his last season, and a trip to the Finals. In fact, even with loaded rosters, prior to Magic's arrival, the Lakers were not much better than an ordinary team. And after he retired they were a .500 team...or about where they were before he arrived. In between... 60 wins per season on AVERAGE, NINE Finals, and FIVE titles. Not a coincidence.

In any case, I do respect your opinions, but we will just have to agree to disagree on these lists.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses was the most dominant player in the NBA from '79 thru '85 (yes, even more dominant than Kareem in '80 when Kareem won his last MVP.)

:oldlol: at Moses being better than Kareem in '80. Kareem was the clear best player that year, and had one of the best playoff runs ever averaging 32/12.

Kareem was also the best in '79 and '81. Moses was the best in '82 and '83, while Bird was the best in '84 and '85.


And H2H, Moses BATTERED everyone. He was relentless and unstoppable in that span.

You're obsession with head to head match ups doesn't interest me. I do know that from what I've seen of the '81 series that Kareem and Moses didn't always match up. Moses was usually guarded by Jim Chones and Kareem was usually guarded by Billy Paultz.


IMHO, Hakeem had two post-season series in which his entire career was built. He outplayed Ewing in '94, and he pounded Robison in '95 (and Robinson basically matched him in their 42 other H2H's.) He was only regarded as the best player in the league in ONE season, and only a top-4 player four times in his career, and in fact, was not even listed as top-10 in EIGHT. He also led his teams to eight first-round exits.

Pure ignorance on Hakeem. nothing new though.

Every playoff series in those 2 runs was great, not just the '95 WCF and '94 finals.

Look at the '93 playoffs. His '86 and '87 playoffs or the '88 series vs Dallas when he averaged 38/17, and he was even in his prime then.

And you're really talking about what Hakeem lacks outside of his 2 titles? What did Moses do outside of his ONE? Lost in the 1st round team with a LOADED team in '84, the '84 Sixers were more talented than ANY team Hakeem had.

Moses was also a major disappointment in the '82 playoffs from what I've read on the series.


And Kareem had too many flop jobs in big games, entire series, and even entire post-seasons. He played in poorly in some, and was outplayed in several. Which is something that the Wilt-detractors can't claim. And Kareem was handed a ring in '88 (he was AWFUL in that post-season, and even WORSE in the Finals), and I honestly believe that the '87 Lakers would have romped to a title with Green and Thompson playing more time, and without Kareem.

You're disrespect for Kareem's contributions in '87 is just amazing. He was averaging close to 20 ppg in the playoffs and still one of the top post players, still drew double teams and hit clutch shots.

They're not beating Boston without him. Sorry, but it's not happening. They probably get to the finals though with that weak West.

Not that Kareem's '87 ring is what he should be ranked on anyone. He won 4 as the first option and as arguably the best player, and 3 as the clear best player. Which compares to almost everyone, and compares favorably to Magic, who has 2 as the clear best player, 3 as arguably the best player, and 5 total, also ranking behind Kareem.


I stand by Magic over Kareem. He won a ring while Kareem was watching the game from his couch. He won 63 games the year after he retired. And he followed that up by taking an over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record in his last season, and a trip to the Finals. In fact, even with loaded rosters, prior to Magic's arrival, the Lakers were not much better than an ordinary team. And after he retired they were a .500 team...or about where they were before he arrived. In between... 60 wins per season on AVERAGE, NINE Finals, and FIVE titles. Not a coincidence.

No, it's not a coincidence that you leave out so many key details. it's because you do a terrible job hiding your agenda.

Magic didn't win a title with Kareem watching. He won ONE game, and got great support from Wilkes in that game(37 and 10). Without Kareem's dominant play through the first 5, they're not even position. And how far would they have even gotten in the '80 playoffs without their BEST player?

[PyrrhusX]

11th?

I don't see him there yet.

Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt in any order for 1-4.

Kareem with a dropoff to #5.

Shaq and Duncan in a tie at #6

Kobe at #8
Bird at #9
Moses at #10
Hakeem at #11

If he wins two titles, and assuming he is the FMVP in both, then he will be knocking on Kobe's door.

Totally agree on the idea that the top 6 is locked up. Lebron mgiht retire in the top 10 all time but towards the latter part of the group imo.

[lakers_forever]

You're right...we'll never agree.
IMHO, Hakeem had two post-season series in which his entire career was built. He outplayed Ewing in '94, and he pounded Robison in '95 (and Robinson basically matched him in their 42 other H2H's.) And you will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (when Hakeem's TEAMMATES just overwhelmed Shaq's) In fact, Shaq ABUSED Hakeem in the majority of their H2H's. He was only regarded as the best player in the league in ONE season, and only a top-4 player FOUR times in his 18 season career, and in fact, was not even listed as top-10 in EIGHT. He also led his teams to eight first-round exits.


:applause: Olajuwon is the most overrated legend here. He was not greater than Duncan, Kobe or Shaq. Hakeem was considered the best player on the game. Before the 94 NBA playoffs, no one thought he was the best player in the NBA. He had a monster playoffs and deserves to be called the best player that year. But he was never the consensous best player in the league, like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Moses all were at some point.

[lakers_forever]

Olajuwon could not make the All NBA FIRST TEAM for 3 straight years in his prim:. 1990, 1991 and 1992, when he was 27, 28 and 29 years old.

Which of Kobe, Duncan, Moses and Shaq also failed to do so? He wasn't considered the consensus best center for a good part of his prime (and it was not like he was battling Kareem and Wilt , it was Ewing and Robinsons for that All nba first team spot in those years).

[ShaqAttack3234]

:applause: Olajuwon is the most overrated legend here. He was not greater than Duncan, Kobe or Shaq. Hakeem was considered the best player on the game. Before the 94 NBA playoffs, no one thought he was the best player in the NBA. He had a monster playoffs and deserves to be called the best player that year. But he was never the consensous best player in the league, like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Moses all were at some point.

Olajuwon took his game to the next level in '93. But he was a flat out better player than Kobe, and I'd say Duncan as well. He's very close with Shaq, I have a tough time deciding.


Olajuwon could not make the All NBA FIRST TEAM for 3 straight years in his prim:. 1990, 1991 and 1992, when he was 27, 28 and 29 years old.

Which of Kobe, Duncan, Moses and Shaq also failed to do so? He wasn't considered the consensus best center for a good part of his prime (and it was not like he was battling Kareem and Wilt for, it was Ewing and Robinsons for that All nba first team spot in those years).

Olajuwon was out for 26 games in '91. And in '90, he finished behind Ewing who had by far the best season of his career. 29/11/4 on 55% while Mychal Thompson said Ewing might be the best in the league that year, and Jordan said he didn't see anyone better than Ewing. Exaggerations, but it tells you how good Ewing was in a year that Jordan and Magic were in their primes.

There's only one all-nba spot for center so it's tougher to make 1st team when there's another elite player at that position.

Hakeem was penalized for not making the playoffs in '92, even though it was because his team was 2-10 without him and 40-30 with him.

Besides it doesn't change how good he was from '93-'96.

And who the hell was better than Hakeem in '94 and '95. He was pretty clearly the best player those years.

[lakers_forever]

Olajuwon took his game to the next level in '93. But he was a flat out better player than Kobe, and I'd say Duncan as well. He's very close with Shaq, I have a tough time deciding.



Olajuwon was out for 26 games in '91. And in '90, he finished behind Ewing who had by far the best season of his career. 29/11/4 on 55% while Mychal Thompson said Ewing might be the best in the league that year, and Jordan said he didn't see anyone better than Ewing. Exaggerations, but it tells you how good Ewing was in a year that Jordan and Magic were in their primes.



Kobe, Duncan and Shaq easily had better careers than Olajuwon. That's why they are greater. Him being a better player than Kobe is just your opinion. And if we consider who was the "better player", Oscar should be top 5 or at least consensus top 10 and he is not.

What about 92? When 17 players had points in the MVP ranking, but he did not get a single one.

[pauk]

Initially, I thought a title wouldn't alter Lebron's ranking too much on my list(I had him around top 15) because of the incredible amount of help with Wade as a top 3-4 player and then Bosh as a 7-time all-star and 3rd option.

But Wade has clearly fallen off this year, and is now arguably not one of the top 5 best players in the game, and Bosh was out for almost all of the ECSF and ECF before making a big impact last night. And because the big 3 wasn't the same for this run, it caused Lebron to do a lot more than he had to last year to reach the finals. He had a strong playoff run last season to reach the finals, but is now having an all-time great playoff run.

Lebron is playing at the historic level I knew he was capable of, and did what I expected him to by still winning with help that's not as spectacular as last year, or how they looked on paper entering the playoffs.

I didn't think he'd ever top his '09 season, but if he does his job in the finals, I may have to call this his best season. He can really erase all of the criticism. I was concerned that Lebron was relying too much on all of his transition opportunities this year, but it hasn't mattered since he's been able to get them in the postseason.

31/10/5 on 51% through the first 3 rounds and excellent defense plus 34/11/4 on 53% + excellent defense vs the league's best defensive team in the ECF. It didn't hurt that Wade was the primary focus of Boston's defense, but I'd have to call this Lebron's best series.

They have a tough task ahead, OKC has their own big 3 and probably more talent outside of their big 3 than Miami, and they have the second best player in the league(yes...second best, Lebron is still the best player in the league, and this is the season it's been the most obvious).

But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time. He had some bad luck in '09, playing at a level easily high enough to win a title, and had lost the Orlando series due two last second shots, his supporting cast playing below their standards and Orlando providing terrible match up problems, particularly Howard and Lewis.

Great post...

Although i can see Miami maybe losing Finals no matter how awesome Lebron plays considering Wade/Bosh & supporting cast compared to the

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe, Duncan and Shaq easily had better careers than Olajuwon. That's why they are greater. Him being a better player than Kobe is just your opinion. And if we consider who was the "better player", Oscar should be top 5 or at least consensus top 10 and he is not.

Hakeem had the better prime than Kobe and Duncan, and about even with Shaq, which is all that matters to me. Everything else such as this "career" nonsense depends on circumstances.

Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me.

And I don't believe Oscar would be top 5 or top 10 either way, difficult to say without there being more than a few games available, though.


What about 92? When 17 players had points in the MVP ranking, but he did not get a single one.

Shouldn't Hakeem leading a team that could only go 2-10 without him to a 40-30 record matter more than MVP voters? They are just writers with their own opinion like you and me.

Hakeem's reputation was low at the time because of trade demands, doesn't mean he wasn't a great player.

[QUOTE=pauk]Great post...

Although i can see Miami maybe losing Finals no matter how awesome Lebron plays considering Wade/Bosh & supporting cast compared to the

[1987_Lakers]

If LeBron wins atleast 3 titles I will rank him ahead of Bird. It's very rare to find players who dominate ever aspect of the game like LeBron.

[Carbine]

"Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me."

I've never understood this. It completely puts longevity into the corner like it don't mean anything. What Garnett just did helps his career, to me. Him doing what he just did at 36 or whatever he is, that's amazing. Just because he's not in his prime anymore doesn't mean what he did shouldn't count.

Same with Malone. Stupid longevity, maybe not the best prime, but his longevity is a really big part of his career. Kareem's longevity is a really big staple of his argument as GOAT.

TMac in his prime, as an individual player..... you could argue he was Kobe's equal. Or at worst just slightly behind him, but just barely.....but he's waaaaay down there on the all-time list compared to Kobe.

To judge someone on their primes is leaving out the "rise" and "decline" of their careers, which is a vast majority of it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

"Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me."

I've never understood this. It completely puts longevity into the corner like it don't mean anything. What Garnett just did helps his career, to me. Him doing what he just did at 36 or whatever he is, that's amazing. Just because he's not in his prime anymore doesn't mean what he did shouldn't count.

I've never understood why people on this board actually try to pretend that better player and greater player mean different things. If it's about longevity, then it should be worded differently.

People can value longevity all they want, I'm not saying it means nothing. I am amazed by Malone and Kareem's longevity. But it matters far less to me than how good they were during their prime. Simply because there's a limit to how inferior a player can be to another in their best years and call them better with a straight face.

Hakeem wasn't exactly lacking in the longevity department either. His longevity was about as good as any top 10 player not named Kareem, and better than some. He emerged as one of the top players in the league in just his 2nd season in '86 upsetting a more talented Laker team who won titles the previous year and following year, and got Houston to the finals. Then 10 years later in '96, he was still the second best player in the game behind only MJ, and still one of the better players in '97.


TMac in his prime, as an individual player..... you could argue he was Kobe's equal. Or at worst just slightly behind him, but just barely.....but he's waaaaay down there on the all-time list compared to Kobe.

T-Mac's prime is clearly not as good as Kobe's. His peak in '03 was comparable, but still behind 3 of Kobe's years, imo('06-'08).


To judge someone on their primes is leaving out the "rise" and "decline" of their careers, which is a vast majority of it.

That's why I include an extended prime. For example, Kobe's true prime to me was '03-'09, but he wasn't far off from '01-'10 so I factor that in. And Shaq's true prime was '98-'02, but I'd call '95-'03 his extended prime.

[Carbine]

Like someone else mentioned then, how come Oscar is in the 11-15 range when as a pure basketball player, he probably deserves every right to be in the upper elite to ever play. The way former players who played against him or saw him speaks so highly of him, and put together with his individual stats.... how is he so far down on your list?

That doesn't make sense. If "better player is the greater player" is the standard which you use, he should be in the top 5-8.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Tim Duncan = overall best big man ever (teammate, friend, brother, lover, protector, offcourt, oncourt, lockeroom, press, media, fundraisers, nba cares events)

[ShaqAttack3234]

Like someone else mentioned then, how come Oscar is in the 11-15 range when as a pure basketball player, he probably deserves every right to be in the upper elite to ever play. The way former players who played against him or saw him speaks so highly of him, and put together with his individual stats.... how is he so far down on your list?

That doesn't make sense. If "better player is the greater player" is the standard which you use, he should be in the top 5-8.

I don't agree that he should be that high, that's what you're not getting. You think he's better than I do.

Russell and Wilt were better and considered the 2 best by most while playing at the same time Oscar did. Then I'll definitely add Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird and Hakeem as better players from later eras. As well as Magic(best PG), Duncan(great two-way big man, with no flaw other than FT shooting which wasn't always a flaw, that makes a bigger impact to me) and Kobe(Kobe has scoring and defense, while Oscar has passing).

I think Lebron is a better player too. They scored in different ways, Oscar with a better post game and mid-range, Lebron with the explosiveness and size at 6'8", 265-270. Both are great passers, wouldn't necessarily disagree with someone choosing Oscar there, not enough footage for me to come to a definitive conclusion, though and Lebron is the best passing/playmaking non-PG I know of other than Bird. Lebron has defense and rebounding and seems better at carrying a team.

Oscar would be in the same range for me as Lebron currently, Barkley, KG, Moses and West(Oscar generally seemed to be regarded as better, so I'd probably defer to that without having seen more than a handful of games of each).

I'm not as convinced as Oscar as some, I think people look at the triple double season out of context and overrate him due to that. I respect those that know more of him than that and don't base their case on that. He didn't really lead a team anywhere either, though he did have the Russell excuse in some years, and the '67 Sixers in another year. As I said, I'm not as convinced as some, certainly not enough to even consider putting him in my top 10, but will give him a certain amount of respect just because of how his peers talk about him. And because I do think he had some skills that would allow him to be a productive player today.

[YAWN]

1 ring shaqattack? are you kidding?

he needs 2 rings to sniff #11 IMO..

How would this resume:
1 ring
1x Finals mvp
3x MVP
1x Scoring Champ
8x All Star
8x All NBA
4x All Defense

Be ranked ahead of this one..:
2 Rings
2x Finals mvps
1x MVP
2x DPOY
12x All Star
12x All NBA
9x All Defense

[MiseryCityTexas]

Kobe, Duncan and Shaq easily had better careers than Olajuwon. That's why they are greater. Him being a better player than Kobe is just your opinion. And if we consider who was the "better player", Oscar should be top 5 or at least consensus top 10 and he is not.

What about 92? When 17 players had points in the MVP ranking, but he did not get a single one.

Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq clearly had better supporting casts also. Most of Hakeem's teammates were spot up 3 point shooters. Especially in 94.

[ILLsmak]

I still am not sure that 1. He will win and 2. Wade won't try to ninja the Finals MVP.

And if Wade somehow wings finals MVP then that's BAD for Bron's legacy. It'd be great of somehow Bosh got it. I'd be laughing.


-Smak

[TheOne]

Barring no major injuries, stats wise he will be easily top 5. It's all about rings. He needs 2 rings to become top 10, 3 rings to become top 5.

[lakers_forever]

Hakeem had the better prime than Kobe and Duncan, and about even with Shaq, which is all that matters to me. Everything else such as this "career" nonsense depends on circumstances.

Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me.



If better prime is all that matters. Why would Lebron rise in your rankings by winning a ring? His prime would not magically improved by doing so.

I'll assume that you think Lebron's prime is better than Kobe. Why not rank Lebron over him right now?

[triangleoffense]

We'll see what happens in the finals. People were saying the same stuff last year. Lebron has already done it on the ECF stage. The only thing that matters right now is how he performs in the Finals, and that fact remains to be seen.

[LA_Showtime]

Agreed, before this year his best was 2009, and that looked like his peak, so going into this year. I thought he could be like maybe 5% off that high this year . Now it could be either or, I'd tend to lean towards 09 though. No guy in NBA history has logged as many minutes as fast as he has, nor with the type of frame he has either. So who really knows? I'd say he's got 2-5 at this or near this level. And then a slow and steady decline thereafter.

Yup, and that's just individually. The Heat is going to be contending for the next 5-6 years at worst. Regardless of their role players, that kind of star power wins games, period. Look at the Celtics. LeBron has an opportunity to finish in the top five all time. I hope he gets there.

[AlphaWolf24]

"This year has been ideal for Lebron's legacy"

and if he loses once again in the Finals with Wade , and Bosh???

where does he rank??


freakin Jim Kelly of Basketball....

[eliteballer]

Initially, I thought a title wouldn't alter Lebron's ranking too much on my list(I had him around top 15) because of the incredible amount of help with Wade as a top 3-4 player and then Bosh as a 7-time all-star and 3rd option.

But Wade has clearly fallen off this year, and is now arguably not one of the top 5 best players in the game, and Bosh was out for almost all of the ECSF and ECF before making a big impact last night. And because the big 3 wasn't the same for this run, it caused Lebron to do a lot more than he had to last year to reach the finals. He had a strong playoff run last season to reach the finals, but is now having an all-time great playoff run.

Lebron is playing at the historic level I knew he was capable of, and did what I expected him to by still winning with help that's not as spectacular as last year, or how they looked on paper entering the playoffs.

I didn't think he'd ever top his '09 season, but if he does his job in the finals, I may have to call this his best season. He can really erase all of the criticism. I was concerned that Lebron was relying too much on all of his transition opportunities this year, but it hasn't mattered since he's been able to get them in the postseason.

31/10/5 on 51% through the first 3 rounds and excellent defense plus 34/11/4 on 53% + excellent defense vs the league's best defensive team in the ECF. It didn't hurt that Wade was the primary focus of Boston's defense, but I'd have to call this Lebron's best series.

They have a tough task ahead, OKC has their own big 3 and probably more talent outside of their big 3 than Miami, and they have the second best player in the league(yes...second best, Lebron is still the best player in the league, and this is the season it's been the most obvious).

But if Lebron doesn't choke like last year, I'll be able to rank him no lower than 11th all-time. He had some bad luck in '09, playing at a level easily high enough to win a title, and had lost the Orlando series due two last second shots, his supporting cast playing below their standards and Orlando providing terrible match up problems, particularly Howard and Lewis.


An injury riddled NY team, untested Pacers, and an ancient Celtics team are not great comp............He had both Bosh and Wade for the end of the Celtics series and will have them both for he Finals

[pegasus]

An injury riddled NY team, untested Pacers, and an ancient Celtics team are not great comp............He had both Bosh and Wade for the end of the Celtics series and will have them both for he Finals

I agree. He did play well in crucial games, but nothing he has done will improve his legacy unless he wins it all. And if he does lose... I don't know if his legacy can ever recover from back to back disappointments of this magnitude.

[boojitede]

Kinda funny kareem never gets mentioned for having 6 rings. its like he doesnt exist. :lol

[magnax1]

Honestly, what he does won't affect how I rank him much. If he collapses, he's already done that most of his career. If he doesn't, then it's only 1 year of his career and doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trust him as my main option in the playoffs. I already have him top 20, but I don't think I could ever rank him higher then the high teens unless he rattles off a couple more runs like this in the next couple of years and proves that he can be consistent in the playoffs. I'm not going to forget that stuff because of one run.
Also, I definitely wouldn't call this his best playoff series. Despite his pretty average stats, his Chicago series last year is by far his best series for me. Played amazing defense all series, then shut down Derrick rose for the last bit of the game while closing them out on the offensive end, He was really what caused the Bulls to lose all four of those games in the last few minutes.
I definitely think this is his best season though. He's a better halfcourt scorer then he ever was, he's having his second best defensive season, and is probably the second best perimeter defender behind Thabo. He's also having his best rebounding season, which is pretty huge for this Heat team, and he's gotten a lot better as a close to mid range shooter where he used to sort of struggle.

[longtime lurker]

"Better player is the same exact thing as greater player to me."

I've never understood this. It completely puts longevity into the corner like it don't mean anything. What Garnett just did helps his career, to me. Him doing what he just did at 36 or whatever he is, that's amazing. Just because he's not in his prime anymore doesn't mean what he did shouldn't count.

Same with Malone. Stupid longevity, maybe not the best prime, but his longevity is a really big part of his career. Kareem's longevity is a really big staple of his argument as GOAT.

TMac in his prime, as an individual player..... you could argue he was Kobe's equal. Or at worst just slightly behind him, but just barely.....but he's waaaaay down there on the all-time list compared to Kobe.

To judge someone on their primes is leaving out the "rise" and "decline" of their careers, which is a vast majority of it.

Cosign. I never understood why longevity just gets swept to the side in favour of a players prime. Give me someone that can sustain an elite level of play over a career vs someone who only does is for a few years. I'm pretty sure the only reason this prime argument is brought up is to cherry pick in favour of certain players.

[Indian guy]

I already have him top 20, but I don't think I could ever rank him higher then the high teens unless he rattles off a couple more runs like this in the next couple of years

This is a joke, right? The "higher teens" consists of guys like Malone, Barkley, D-Rob and so on - players who're less accomplished than LeBron even today. If LeBron can lead a team to a championship, he easily leaps past them and legitimately becomes a Top 12 candidate. Outside the Top 10, you'll have a hard time finding a resume that tops 3 MVPs, Top 3 statistical dominance and 1 championship as THE MAN.


Also, I definitely wouldn't call this his best playoff series.

Agreed. '09 ECF definitely tops this one.


Despite his pretty average stats, his Chicago series last year is by far his best series for me.

You can't be serious. He was completely MIA for looooong stretches of that series. He was clutch at the end of games, sure, but there was no real consistency to his play for an entire game. He would disappear for entire halves. Would barely make my Top 10 LeBron series'.


definitely think this is his best season though.

Not even close. Significantly better player in '09 and '10.


He's a better halfcourt scorer then he ever was

The ****? :oldlol:. He's statistically having his worst shooting season since '08 and isn't half the slasher he was in Cleveland. With the exception off-ball movement, there's nothing LeBron's better-than-ever at today.

[oolalaa]

Moses was the most dominant player in the NBA from '79 thru '85 (yes, even more dominant than Kareem in '80 when Kareem won his last MVP.)

Just utter nonsense.

Like shaqattack has mentioned, the ONLY thing Moses had over Kareem in '79 and '80 was rebounding. Kareem handily outscored Malone on much better efficiency in both the '79 and '80 post seasons, was a FAR better passer, a better man defender and a MUCH better shot blocker.

And, in 1980, whilst Moses was getting swept by Bird's Celtics, Kareem led L.A to a title!! (He was robbed of that finals MVP, too - Through the first 5 games Magic averaged a 17/10/9 & 3 stls compared to Kareem's 33/14/3 & 5 blks. And it was Kareem who set up Magic's ridiculous series clinching game 6 with a 40/15 in game 5, including the go ahead dunk+1 with 30 seconds left).

Between '81 and '83 I would agree, Moses was the dominant player in the league.

In '84, both Bird and Magic overtook him. Bird won MVP and led Boston to a championship, whilst Moses choked, with a great team around him, in the first round against a 45 win Nets team (19 points on 6-14 shooting in the do or die game 5). Bird >>>>>>>>> Moses from '84 onwards and it's not even close, frankly.

And, with Norm Nixon out of the way, the Lakers finally became Magic's team in 83/84. He failed in the finals, but at least he made it there! :oldlol:


And you will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals

The box score suggests that Shaq played Hakeem to at least a draw. Anyone who has watched the series knows how abusrd that notion is.

It was Hakeem who tipped in the game winner in game 1, after Shaq went scoreless in the overtime. It was Hakeem's big first half in game 2 - outscoring Shaq 22 to 10 (Shaq went 14 minutes without a point) - that led to an insurmountable lead for Houston by mid way through the 3rd quarter. It was Hakeem who scored 6 straight points on Shaq (Fallaway....pumpfake, drew foul, 2 FTs....back down, swivel glass, banker) in cruch time of game 4 to ice it and lead Houston to their 2nd straight championship.

Hakeem made the key, game winning plays. Hakeem scored his points when they mattered most. Hakeem's team swept Shaq's team. It really wasn't that close.


I stand by Magic over Kareem.

I agree. Magic saved Kareem's legacy somewhat.




..

[ultimateaggie]

People are way too quick to ignore Hakeem's status as best defensive player ever not named Russell.

[oolalaa]

Like someone else mentioned then, how come Oscar is in the 11-15 range when as a pure basketball player, he probably deserves every right to be in the upper elite to ever play. The way former players who played against him or saw him speaks so highly of him, and put together with his individual stats.... how is he so far down on your list?

That doesn't make sense. If "better player is the greater player" is the standard which you use, he should be in the top 5-8.

I posted this a while a go in another thread. Copy and paste ftw :D


Oscar Robertson was a funny one. He is an enigma to me. Clearly he was a phenomenal all round talent....

- Great scorer. From what I've seen and read, he was mainly a mid range jumpshooter, and a deadly one at that. He seemed unstoppable in the post as well, backing down his defender and burying unblockable turn around jumpers and I don't doubt that he was a quick and effective driver to the hoop, although I certainly didn't see MJ quickness or athleticism from him.

- Great passer. He averaged over 10 assists a game in his first 9 years in the league. Slightly mind bogginly really. Only Guy 'shot jacking' Rodgers was close to Oscar's assist numbers (Hey Guy, how do you score less points than the number of shots you take? If you're reading this, let me know), although I doubt that he was a much better passer than West or Wilt at his peak. Not as much as the numbers would suggest anyway.

- Rebounding. He was certainly overrated in this department. We all know that he averaged a triple double in his first 5 seasons combined - this obviously means at least 10 rebounds, BUT, the early 60s were ridiculously fast paced. The numbers need to be taken with a sack full of salt. Whilst his assist numbers remained strong going into the late 60s, his rebound numbers plummeted, more so than the other greats from that era.

- Defensively he was fine. I've never read anywhere that he exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. Somehwere in the middle, like most guards of that era.


But I have a problem. How did his all round greatness and absurd stats produce so little team success?

Between '62 and '67, the Royals lost 6 of 8 playoffs series with Oscar at the helm, including four 1st round exits. Between '68 and '70, they didn't even make the playoffs!! (are you kidding?). Clearly something wasn't quite right. Clearly he had no ability to raise the level of his teammates. Clearly he wasn't a leader.

Clearly the phrase "There are lies, damned lies and statistics" holds a lot of weight.

By many accounts, Oscar was a prickly character to deal with. He was particuarly sensitive to the perpetual racism at the time and it likely effected his demeanour (say what you want about Bill Simmons, his critique of Oscar in his TBOB was very good). I don't get the impression that he was someone teammates gravitated towards, rather he was someone you kept your distance from. You could say that about Jordan I guess. But Jordan might be the most homicidally competitive athlete the world has ever known. He refused to lose (much like Russell). Was Oscar wired like that? I doubt it.

Would Oscar really win multiple titles with the 90s Bulls, for instance, in place of MJ (that so many of these old former players compare him to)? In my opinion, no friggin way. Even with the modern training, nutrition, equipment, travel etc, there is no way he would be more dominant than Jordan. He'd be in the pack below, with Drexler, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Pippen etc


Put MJ in the 60s? He would not merely have been a superstar on a lousy contender. The way I look at it, Jerry West was the closest player in terms of play style and ability to MJ, in the 60s. A poor mans Jordan if you like - 3 inches smaller, not as athletic, not as good at driving to the hoop (let's face it, who is?), not as good a rebounder, not as good defensively (even though he was great). West was probably the better long range shooter, but what good is that, with no 3 point line? At mid-range....Jordan was one of the very best mid range shooters in history.

If West could carry a Baylor-less Lakers to the '65 finals - by pouring in 46ppg against Bellamy's Bullets, and take a game from the mighty Celtics, what do you think Jordan would be able to do?? What if Jordan had Twyman, Embry and Lucas (all good/very good players) along side him? I'm sure he would be 95% as effective in the 60s as he was in the 90s, with the slightly different rules. And let's not forget that there were far less 'lock down' perimeter defenders back then as well (KC Jones, Wali Jones, Satch Sanders were probably the only 3 that really stood out). I have no doubt he could steal at least a couple of titles away from Boston.

[ShaqAttack3234]

1 ring shaqattack? are you kidding?

he needs 2 rings to sniff #11 IMO..

How would this resume:
1 ring
1x Finals mvp
3x MVP
1x Scoring Champ
8x All Star
8x All NBA
4x All Defense

Be ranked ahead of this one..:
2 Rings
2x Finals mvps
1x MVP
2x DPOY
12x All Star
12x All NBA
9x All Defense

Are you using Hakeem Olajuwon's resume? If so, I don't see how this is relevant because I don't have Olajuwon ranked as low as top 10. Nowhere near it, he's more around my top 5.

1 ring is as good, or better than all of the players I have around that 11-15 range, if not better. And some that did win rings, didn't do it as the best player such as Oscar and West. But I give West a pass because he easily played at a high enough level consistently in the playoffs including '69 when he lost in 7, but won finals MVP.


If better prime is all that matters. Why would Lebron rise in your rankings by winning a ring? His prime would not magically improved by doing so.

I'll assume that you think Lebron's prime is better than Kobe. Why not rank Lebron over him right now?

I think Lebron and Kobe have similar prime levels, but Lebron's is only 4 years so far, so his prime is incomplete.

I'd still take Kobe because I know I could win multiple titles with him, Lebron has to prove that after his strange disappearances. That's the only thing that's missing with Lebron. If he wins two, I start thinking about him in the top 10, provided it's with a similar level of play to what he's doing now.

[lakers_forever]

Are you using Hakeem Olajuwon's resume? If so, I don't see how this is relevant because I don't have Olajuwon ranked as low as top 10. Nowhere near it, he's more around my top 5.



I know it's very subjective, but I don't see any way Olajuwon can be ranked top 5. I think it's pure revisionism. Majority of media and fans weren't saying he was the best center ever or one of the best five players ever when he was playing. A guy can't be top 5 on the all time list when he was no more than 5 times in the be top 3 players in the league in his own time. It does not make sense.

In terms of what they did in their careers and what they meant to the NBA (not what if about playing today and things no once can say), there's no way Olajuwon can be ranked ahead of the 6 GOAT candidates (Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird). IMO those are the players who can, or at least at some point were, be considered the best player ever.

[oolalaa]

I know it's very subjective, but I don't see any way Olajuwon can be ranked top 5. I think it's pure revisionism. Majority of media and fans weren't saying he was the best center ever or one of the best five players ever when he was playing. A guy can't be top 5 on the all time list when he was no more than 5 times in the be top 3 players in the league in his own time. It does not make sense.

In terms of what they did in their careers and what they meant to the NBA (not what if about playing today and things no once can say), there's no way Olajuwon can be ranked ahead of the 6 GOAT candidates (Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird). IMO those are the players who can, or at least at some point were, be considered the best player ever.

I agree. It's huge, to me, that Hakeem won his 2 rings with the greatest player of all time on a god damn sabbatical (MJ was clearly only at 80% in '95). People who rank Hakeem highly tend to forget this - if Jordan didn't retire, Hakeem may very well have ended his career with zero rings, and been 0-2 in the finals. He had world class timing.

[YAWN]

Are you using Hakeem Olajuwon's resume? If so, I don't see how this is relevant because I don't have Olajuwon ranked as low as top 10. Nowhere near it, he's more around my top 5.


One ring and 5-6 more years of superstar output, sure maybe he'll finagle his way into #11. But how could he crack the top 10 with anything less than 2 rings and longevity?

Also in regards to your Hakeem comment...which ones of these do you have Hakeem leaping over all the way to 5?

jordan - 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, 5 mvps etc etc
kareem - 6 rings, 2 finals mvps, 6 mvps etc etc
magic - 5 rings, 3 finals mvps, 3 mvps etc etc
russell - 11 rings, 5 mvps, 12x all star, 11x all nba etc etc

wilt - 2 rings, 1 finals mvp, 4 mvps, 13x all star, 10x all nba, 2x all d etc etc
kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 14x all star, 14x all nba, 12x all d, 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 13x all nba, 13x all d
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, 3x all d, 2x scoring champ
bird - 3 rings, 2 finals mvps, 3 mvps, 12x all star, 10x all nba, 3x all d
hakeem - 2 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 12x all star, 12x all nba, 9x all d, 2x DPOY

[ShaqAttack3234]

One ring and 5-6 more years of superstar output, sure maybe he'll finagle his way into #11. But how could he crack the top 10 with anything less than 2 rings and longevity?

Also in regards to your Hakeem comment...which ones of these do you have Hakeem leaping over all the way to 5?

jordan - 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, 5 mvps etc etc
kareem - 6 rings, 2 finals mvps, 6 mvps etc etc
magic - 5 rings, 3 finals mvps, 3 mvps etc etc
russell - 11 rings, 5 mvps, 12x all star, 11x all nba etc etc

wilt - 2 rings, 1 finals mvp, 4 mvps, 13x all star, 10x all nba, 2x all d etc etc
kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 14x all star, 14x all nba, 12x all d, 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 13x all nba, 13x all d
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, 3x all d, 2x scoring champ
bird - 3 rings, 2 finals mvps, 3 mvps, 12x all star, 10x all nba, 3x all d
hakeem - 2 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 12x all star, 12x all nba, 9x all d, 2x DPOY

I have Hakeem over Magic. Both of their rankings rely heavily on their absolute prime years, '93-'96 for Hakeem, and '87-'90 for Magic. I have Hakeem very slightly over Bird. Defense is a real consideration in both decisions.

I also have Hakeem over Duncan, defense is debatable, Olajuwon at his absolute prime was a better overall defender, imo, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound and smarter as a young player, but Duncan also didn't last as long as an elite defender. And offense clearly favors Hakeem.

I have him clearly over Kobe. Never have I seen Kobe at a comparable level to prime Hakeem. Kobe's streak scoring ability isn't enough to make up for Hakeem's massive edge defensively, and offense isn't decisive enough for me since I have more confidence in Hakeem's decision making seeing him perform so well as a facilitator in the post as well as seeing his ability to carry a team with scoring when it mattered the most(countless 30 ppg series, or 33/10/5 for an entire title run in '95).

I have Hakeem over Wilt. His offense impresses me more, and from what I know, Olajuwon was the better defensive player, a vastly superior playoff performer, he won an equal amount of rings with much less help.

I don't have a definitive ranking for Russell at the moment, I'm still thinking about him, and as I said, Hakeem is about even with Shaq for me. I go back and forth on them.

And I happen to think Hakeem was underrated for much of his career, but you can see the high praise from some, Jack Ramsey(Wilt's former GM with the Sixers) said Olajuwon was better than Wilt during the '95 playoffs.

But I don't need to rely on such statements to form my own opinion.

[NugzHeat3]

I know it's very subjective, but I don't see any way Olajuwon can be ranked top 5. I think it's pure revisionism. Majority of media and fans weren't saying he was the best center ever or one of the best five players ever when he was playing. A guy can't be top 5 on the all time list when he was no more than 5 times in the be top 3 players in the league in his own time. It does not make sense.

In terms of what they did in their careers and what they meant to the NBA (not what if about playing today and things no once can say), there's no way Olajuwon can be ranked ahead of the 6 GOAT candidates (Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird). IMO those are the players who can, or at least at some point were, be considered the best player ever.
Plenty of people put him in the same breath as Kareem, Russell and Wilt after the 1995 playoffs including saying he had a better playoff run than anyone else and had played as well as anybody did.

As for your other claim saying "nobody ever thought" he was the best in the league before 1994, there were people who said he was playing equal or better than anybody in the league in 1993 as well as being the most dominant player. That's Jordan included by the way and I can post quotes to verify all of this.
I agree. It's huge, to me, that Hakeem won his 2 rings with the greatest player of all time on a god damn sabbatical (MJ was clearly only at 80% in '95). People who rank Hakeem highly tend to forget this - if Jordan didn't retire, Hakeem may very well have ended his career with zero rings, and been 0-2 in the finals. He had world class timing.
Consider the other side of the spectrum. What would the Rockets beating the Bulls do for Hakeem's legacy? Quit acting like it's a given the Bulls would win.

You should check out what the Bulls said about those Rocket teams by the way.

Also, you saying people who rank Hakeem highly forget that Jordan retired is an asinine claim. Anybody who considers them a knowledgeable basketball fan knows that.

[Odinn]

About Hakeem from "Why is Bird considered greater and ranked higher than Hakeem?" thread;


GOAT list not just about peaks.

Peak; very arguably. I'd say equal, you can't wrong with either. The difference is minimal.
Prime; I'd say Bird. Still close.
Accolades; Bird. Not saying way better but it's clear cut.
Longevity; We will never know Bird's true longevity. Hakeem.

The point about Hakeem is he had one of the top 5 peaks(as 3 year-span) ever but his legacy mostly based on just 3 year span. He is the only player who gets this much credit just based on 3 years from the 10 ever list. That can't be said for other top 10 players. That can't be said for Bird.


It's saying like why Pete Sampras ranked over John McEnroe. McEnroe had one of the best calendar years ever in 1984. At his best he is there. But not career wise.

---

I think LeBron has a chance to make an all-time title run while having Wade and Bosh on his team. It's coz of Wade's drop off and Bosh's injuries like ShaqAttack said. I can not talk about Wade but if Bosh has a great finals, it shouldn't be a reason to discredit LeBron. I mean against Thunder frontcourt, Bosh is the only weapon Heat got.

[magnax1]

This is a joke, right? The "higher teens" consists of guys like Malone, Barkley, D-Rob and so on - players who're less accomplished than LeBron even today. If LeBron can lead a team to a championship, he easily leaps past them and legitimately becomes a Top 12 candidate. Outside the Top 10, you'll have a hard time finding a resume that tops 3 MVPs, Top 3 statistical dominance and 1 championship as THE MAN.
I meant to say low teens. Either way, I don't trust Lebron enough to put him above the 10-15 range unless he rattles off a couple more playoff runs like this, and plays well in the finals. Really I could not give two ****s about what his "resume" is. All I care about is what he produces on the court, and when someone falls apart multiple times in the playoffs I'm going to have trouble believing he's better then most of the guys in the top 15.


You can't be serious. He was completely MIA for looooong stretches of that series. He was clutch at the end of games, sure, but there was no real consistency to his play for an entire game. He would disappear for entire halves. Would barely make my Top 10 LeBron series'.
Don't know wtf you're talking about. That was by far his best defensive series, and he played very well offensively against the best or second best defensive team in the NBA. He was not MIA at all.




The ****? :oldlol:. He's statistically having his worst shooting season since '08
Yeah, you're right. Excluding the fact that the complete opposite is the truth. No matter what metric you use, TS%, EFG% FG%, 3p%, this is Lebron's best shooting season ever.





and isn't half the slasher he was in Cleveland. With the exception off-ball movement, there's nothing LeBron's better-than-ever at today.
Really the only thing he isn't better at now then 09 or 10 is slashing. Defense, shooting, rebounding, post game, close/mid range game, he's better at them all, and some by very wide margins (defense for example) He definitely doesn't have the same stamina either, but other then that he's pretty much universally better now.

[jlauber]

Just utter nonsense.

Like shaqattack has mentioned, the ONLY thing Moses had over Kareem in '79 and '80 was rebounding. Kareem handily outscored Malone on much better efficiency in both the '79 and '80 post seasons, was a FAR better passer, a better man defender and a MUCH better shot blocker.

And, in 1980, whilst Moses was getting swept by Bird's Celtics, Kareem led L.A to a title!! (He was robbed of that finals MVP, too - Through the first 5 games Magic averaged a 17/10/9 & 3 stls compared to Kareem's 33/14/3 & 5 blks. And it was Kareem who set up Magic's ridiculous series clinching game 6 with a 40/15 in game 5, including the go ahead dunk+1 with 30 seconds left).



Hmmm... in the 78-79 season, Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, and shot .577. Moses averaged 24.8 ppg, 17.6 rpg (which was FIVE better than the runner-ups Rich Kelly and Kareem), and shot .540.

In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Kareem averaged 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and shot a career high .604 (no coincidence that it was Magic's rookie season.) Moses was at 25.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and .502 from the field. AND, in their two H2H games that season, Moses outscored Kareem 60-40 (30 ppg to 20 ppg.)

In the 80-81 season, Kareem was at 26.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, and .574. Moses came in with a 27.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, .522 season. Then, in their 3 game playoff H2H's, Moses took his 40-42 team to a stunning win over the 54-28 Lakers, in a series in which Moses outscored Kareem 94-81 (31 to 27 ppg...including a 38 point outburst.)

After that Moses just blew Kareem away. In '81-82 Moses shredded the NBA with a 31.1 ppg, 14.7 rpg, and .519 season. Kareem was at 23.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and .579. How about their H2H's? In five H2H battles, Moses outscored Kareem by a 172-109 margin (35 ppg to 22 ppg) which included games of 36, 37, 37, and 39 points.

And we all know that Moses just BURIED Kareem in the '83 Finals. He outscored him in three of their four games (a SWEEP for Moses), while outrebounding Kareem by over TEN per GAME.

For those that are interested...


How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 84-85 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in those five years, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 84-85 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)

[jlauber]

Continuing...


Here are the 40 H2H's between Kareem and Moses...

76-77

1.

M 4
K 18 W

2.

M 17 W
K 28

3.

M 19
K 29 W

4.

M 26 W
K 23


77-78

1.

M 20 W (dominated glass)
K 32

2.

M 21
K 19 W

3.

M 29
K 22 W


78-79

1.

M 32
K 28 W

2.

M 34 W
K 34


79-80

1.

M 32
K 24 W

2.

M 29
K 15 W


80-81

1.

M 26
K 10 W

2.

M 17 W
K 18

3.

M 28
K 22 W

4.

M 29
K 30 W

5.

M 34 W
K 36

Playoffs

1.

M 38 W
K 21

2.

M 33
K 27 W

3.

M 23 W
K 32



81-82

1.

M 36 W
K 33

2.

M 37
K 21 W

3.

M 23
K 23 W

4.

M 39
K 12 W

5.

M 37
K 20 W


82-83

1.

M 12-22 5-8 14 29 W
K 7-11 1-2 2 15

2.

Kareem did not play

Finals

1.

M 9-20 9-12 18 27 W
K 8-15 4-6 4 20

2.

M 8-10 8-13 12 24 W
K 11-17 1-2 4 23

3.

M 10-19 8-13 19 28 W
K 8-20 7-8 15 23

4.

M 9-22 6-9 23 24 W
K 10-15 8-10 7 28


83-84

1.

M 6-13 5-8 11 18
K 5-15 2-4 5 12 W

2.

M 8-17 6-9 11 22 W
K 14-21 1-1 6 29


84-85

1.

M 12-21 11-16 13 35 W
K 12-23 0-2 6 24

2.

M 5-13 6-7 14 16
K 9-19 5-7 9 23 W


85-86

1.

M 4-11 6-8 9 14
K 6-12 1-1 4 13 W

2.

M 9-21 9-14 12 27
K 12-22 4-5 5 28 W


86-87

1.

M 7-15 7-8 10 21
K 6-13 3-5 6 15 W

2.

M 10-22 7-10 15 27 W
K 6-13 5-6 6 17


87-88

1.

M 10-19 6-11 9 26 W
K 12-22 1-2 6 25

2.

Kareem did not play


88-89

1.

M 5-12 6-9 16 16
K 7-13 2-2 4 16 W

2.

M 4-14 6-8 11 14 W
K 2-7 0-0 6 4

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hmmm... in the 78-79 season, Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, and shot .577. Moses averaged 24.8 ppg, 17.6 rpg (which was FIVE better than the runner-ups Rich Kelly and Kareem), and shot .540.

Leaving out the numbers that don't help your argument, I see. Kareem averaged 5.4 apg and a league best 4 bpg. Moses averaged just 1.8 apg, as well as 4 TO and just 1.5 bpg. Malone's Rockets were also the second worst defensive team.

Amazing that Kareem averaged 3.6 more apg than Moses and 0.5 less turnovers.

Kareem was intentionally scoring less that year and playing in the high post much more as a facilitator.

Kareem seemed to be the obvious choice as the better offensive player and better defensive player. Moses had rebounding.


In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Kareem averaged 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and shot a career high .604 (no coincidence that it was Magic's rookie season.) Moses was at 25.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and .502 from the field. AND, in their two H2H games that season, Moses outscored Kareem 60-40 (30 ppg to 20 ppg.)

Are you going to keep trying to deny that Kareem was obviously the best player in the league in '80? The voters got it right this year voting Kareem league MVP, and he had one of the all-time great playoff runs averaging 32/12/3/4 on 57% shooting.


In the 80-81 season, Kareem was at 26.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, and .574. Moses came in with a 27.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, .522 season. Then, in their 3 game playoff H2H's, Moses took his 40-42 team to a stunning win over the 54-28 Lakers, in a series in which Moses outscored Kareem 94-81 (31 to 27 ppg...including a 38 point outburst.)

It wasn't really stunning considering it was a best of 3, and Magic played terribly. Funny how you bring up Moses

Moses had the better series, but Kareem was still the league's best player in '81. Better offensive and defensive player than Moses, and when Magic was out for 45 games, Kareem led them to a 28-17 record while upping his scoring to 28.8 ppg.


After that Moses just blew Kareem away. In '81-82 Moses shredded the NBA with a 31.1 ppg, 14.7 rpg, and .519 season. Kareem was at 23.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and .579. How about their H2H's? In five H2H battles, Moses outscored Kareem by a 172-109 margin (35 ppg to 22 ppg) which included games of 36, 37, 37, and 39 points.

And Moses couldn't "bury" Jack Sikma that year in the playoffs when it mattered most.


And we all know that Moses just BURIED Kareem in the '83 Finals. He outscored him in three of their four games (a SWEEP for Moses), while outrebounding Kareem by over TEN per GAME.

Kareem played fine, Moses had the better series, but purely because of rebounding, but Moses was a much better rebounder anyway, especially by that point, so that was to be expected.

But what point does this prove? Kareem was 36 and Moses was at his peak. I'd say it's pretty impressive that Kareem still led his team to the finals as the best player on his team and 1st option.

[magnax1]

Moses definitely has a case over Kareem in 79 and 80. 79 especially when Kareem just didn't play as well he showed he could in 80. Here's a statistical comparison of their 79 seasons
Kareem-
24-13-5 61 TS%
Moses-
25-18-2 60 TS%
I don't really see that as a huge difference no matter how you cut it. Of course, they are about as different as they could be. I honestly think Moses was better offensively because of all the easy extra possesions he created, and he didn't really need the ball every time down the floor to score. Kareem was obviously the better defender, and Moses seemed to kind of take possessions off on some occasions on defense. I think the Lakers underachieved pretty badly that year too considering what they did the next year with a similar team and a clearly motivated Kareem. Of course Magic did fix their rebounding issue, which was pretty big, but I still would've expected more.
In 80 I'd probably take Kareem by a moderate margin, but from 81 onward it seems pretty clear that Moses was the better player, though Bird in 84 and 85 also seems clearly better then Moses to me as he began to decline.

[jlauber]

Moses definitely has a case over Kareem in 79 and 80. 79 especially when Kareem just didn't play as well he showed he could in 80. Here's a statistical comparison of their 79 seasons
Kareem-
24-13-5 61 TS%
Moses-
25-18-2 60 TS%
I don't really see that as a huge difference no matter how you cut it. Of course, they are about as different as they could be. I honestly think Moses was better offensively because of all the easy extra possesions he created, and he didn't really need the ball every time down the floor to score. Kareem was obviously the better defender, and Moses seemed to kind of take possessions off on some occasions on defense. I think the Lakers underachieved pretty badly that year too considering what they did the next year with a similar team and a clearly motivated Kareem. Of course Magic did fix their rebounding issue, which was pretty big, but I still would've expected more.
In 80 I'd probably take Kareem by a moderate margin, but from 81 onward it seems pretty clear that Moses was the better player, though Bird in 84 and 85 also seems clearly better then Moses to me as he began to decline.

I haven't really spent a great deal of time looking at the H2H's, but Moses generally BATTERED his peers, including Kareem, Gilmore, and other's. Conversely, the more I look at Kareem's H2H's in the 70's and 80's against Gilmore and Lanier, the less dominantg he was. Gilmore, in particular, held his own in scoring and rebounding, but was considerably ahead of Kareem in FG%. There was a game on YouTube in the early 80's (not sure if it is still there, though) in which the analyst commented that Gilmore gave Kareem the most trouble of any center at the time.

Here again, though, Kareem was at his peak in from '71 thru '74. Only Chamberlain and Thurmond could hang with him then. Too bad we never got to see a PRIME Chamberlain against Kareem, though. Considering that a PRIME Chameberlain, circa 1965-1968, was far more dominant against the same centers that Kareem would face later on, IMHO, it would have been interesting to say the least. A Chamberlain who could touch the top of the backboard, run a 4.6 40 at 290 lbs., bench a known 425+, and with 15 ft range.

[G-train]

When it's all said and done Lebron will be considered the second greatest player ever.
Hard for haters to digest currently, but I predict that will happen.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses definitely has a case over Kareem in 79 and 80. 79 especially when Kareem just didn't play as well he showed he could in 80. Here's a statistical comparison of their 79 seasons
Kareem-
24-13-5 61 TS%
Moses-
25-18-2 60 TS%
I don't really see that as a huge difference no matter how you cut it. Of course, they are about as different as they could be. I honestly think Moses was better offensively because of all the easy extra possesions he created, and he didn't really need the ball every time down the floor to score. Kareem was obviously the better defender, and Moses seemed to kind of take possessions off on some occasions on defense.

I think Kareem was quite a bit better offensively because he was an excellent passer, while Moses was a horrible passer, or more accurately, he didn't pass. Plus, I'd take Kareem's vastly superior post game, even though Moses was a solid post scorer.

But statistically, I'd say Kareem's edge is pretty clear. 24/13/5/4, 3.5 TO, 58 FG% vs 25/18/2/1.5, 54 FG%, 4 TO. Moses was an unbelievable rebounder, but outside of that, Kareem literally did everything better.

Kareem's versatility offensively was displayed in the '79 season from the articles I've read. He was clearly the best post scorer of that era, perhaps of all time, but using him so effectively as a facilitator in the high post says a lot.


I think the Lakers underachieved pretty badly that year too considering what they did the next year with a similar team and a clearly motivated Kareem. Of course Magic did fix their rebounding issue, which was pretty big, but I still would've expected more

I've seen nothing to suggest Kareem wasn't motivated in '79, and I've researched Kareem's career, including the '79 season.

They were severely lacking at the PF position to the point that their 2 forwards were Adrian Dantley and Jamaal Wilkes, neither were power forwards, and it showed in their rebounding as they were outrebounded by 3.3 rpg, which is terrible, despite Kareem having an excellent rebounding season.

Of course Magic helped on the boards since he's among the greatest rebounding guards of all time, particularly his first 4 years when he wasn't a good half court scorer and would help out with offensive boards.

But their rebounding was also helped by the additions of Jim Chones, Spencer Haywood and Mark Landsberger in '80 and they now outrebounded opponents by 2.2 rpg. Haywood was a disappointment overall and he was suspended by the team during the finals, and he had been complaining all year, but they still had a lot more size.

That was perhaps the biggest problem for all of Kareem's 70's Laker teams, though the '77 team also lacked enough scoring around Kareem.

But the '79 team also desperately needed some perimeter defense, as evidenced by Gus Williams lighting them up for 30.8 ppg in the '79 playoffs, DJ also had a big series vs them. But Michael Cooper became a significant player for the Lakers in '80, Bill Russell pointed out the significance of Cooper for the '80 team giving them a much needed stopper.

The '80 team was just so much more complete and well rounded. They built a true team rather than having some talent that didn't fit together and glaring weaknesses on the '79 team.


In 80 I'd probably take Kareem by a moderate margin, but from 81 onward it seems pretty clear that Moses was the better player, though Bird in 84 and 85 also seems clearly better then Moses to me as he began to decline.

Moses was probably better in '82, and definitely in '83, but not '81. I've seen a handful of Kareem games from that season and he was pretty much the same player as he was in '80.


There was a game on YouTube in the early 80's (not sure if it is still there, though) in which the analyst commented that Gilmore gave Kareem the most trouble of any center at the time.

I uploaded Laker/Bull match ups from both the '79-'80 and '81-'82 seasons a while ago. Maybe it was one of them, I'll have to upload them again soon, but Gilmore did seem to play very well vs Kareem.


Here again, though, Kareem was at his peak in from '71 thru '74.

In correct, Kareem's peak was '77. However, his prime based on what I know about Kareem's career was probably from '74-'80 or '81, though he entered the league as such an NBA ready player similar to Duncan, Chamberlain and Russell.

[Shep]

i can't believe people are even debating who was better out of moses and kareem in '79 and '80 :oldlol: . malone was swept out of the first round in '79 (with homecourt advantage), and then swept in the second round in '80 while underperforming in both :roll:

come to think of it, moses reminds me of a taller version of charles barkley: points, rebounds and not much else. both are 2 of the most overrated players in nba history.

[ShaqAttack3234]

i can't believe people are even debating who was better out of moses and kareem in '79 and '80 :oldlol: . malone was swept out of the first round in '79 (with homecourt advantage), and then swept in the second round in '80 while underperforming in both :roll:

Well, Malone did have 28 points and 17 rebounds in game 1. Rudy Tomjanovich, Rick Barry and Calvin Murphy combined for just 33 points on 14/42 shooting. Which seemed to be far more of an issue for Houston. But Dan Roundfield did apparently play very well vs Moses, and had 23 points and 18 rebounds himself.

But in game 2, while Moses had 21 points and 24 rebounds, he did not score in that 4th quarter and only had 8 points in the entire second half, and Houston had led by 6 at halftime and also been tied after 3 quarters. Malone shot a little under 44% in the 2 games.

Meanwhile, Kareem was fighting off elimination with 32 points and 12 rebounds vs Denver and a 14 point 4th quarter. And Kareem followed it up with an even better game 3. He had 29 points, 16 rebounds, 8 assists and 6 blocks while hitting the series winning shot.

Can't say he seemed to play particularly poorly in the 1980 series, but I see no mentions of Moses playing particularly well in any of the articles I read. Houston was swept by an average margin of 18.5 ppg, though.

Here's a very quick summary I wrote a while back about the '82 Rockets/Sonics series for those that don't know about it.


In game 1, Houston led by as many as 9 in the first half and Moses had 16 points at halftime, but Houston blew that lead and lost by 15 with Moses only scoring 4 points in the second half. Houston did respond in game 2 blowing out Seattle by 21 and Moses had 28 points and 23 rebounds. In game 3, Sikma outscored Moses 30-24 and Seattle blew out Houston by 21 to clinch the series. A headline for this game was "Sikma wins battle of the big men." Moses dropped from 31 ppg on 52% shooting during the season to 24 ppg on 43% shooting in the series.

Outside of '83, and '81, Moses didn't have an impressive playoff career. I'm giving him credit in '81 for getting to the finals, but he didn't have the best finals either.

Look at '84, he should've been in his prime, but the Sixers greatly underachieve going 52-30 and losing in the 1st round with a lineup of all-stars including Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones to support Moses.

Erving was still a 22/7/4, 51 FG% player who averaged 1.8 spg and bpg. Andrew Toney was a 20 ppg/5 apg player who shot 53% and 84% from the line. Mo Cheeks put up 13 ppg/6 apg, 55 FG% and 2.3 spg while making the all-defensive 1st team, and Bobby Jones also made the all-defensive 1st team.

That's the same core that destroyed the NBA, but they had a disappointing season, and so did Moses. Teams don't get much more talented than that.