Pippen has intangibles that you CANNOT COACH OR TEACH

[unbreakable]

Jordan homers love to say "Jordan made Pippen".. but if youre a real hoophead, you know that there are intangibles you just CANNOT TEACH..

Pippen's playmaking ability, passing, and all around hunger are UNTEACHABLE. you dont learn these things, they are innate abilities given from the Gods above.

Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)

:bowdown:

[97 bulls]

Jordan homers love to say "Jordan made Pippen".. but if youre a real hoophead, you know that there are intangibles you just CANNOT TEACH..

Pippen's playmaking ability, passing, and all around hunger are UNTEACHABLE. you dont learn these things, they are innate abilities given from the Gods above.

Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)

:bowdown:
I like this guy

[BMOGEFan]

I think if lebron played in the early 90s, he'd be nothing more than a drexler type player.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jesus... :oldlol: :facepalm

[97 bulls]

Jesus... :oldlol: :facepalm
Typical

[unbreakable]

I think if lebron played in the early 90s, he'd be nothing more than a drexler type player.

i disagree, lebron has strength, passing, and finishing ability to be a mvp candidate in any era

[unbreakable]

Jesus...

So youre saying Jordan taught pippen how to be a Point forward? :facepalm

[oolalaa]

He lacked the competitiveness and "Killer instinct" that the majority of the all time greats had (in the top 20 at least). He WANTED to be second fiddle. It suited his persona.

And,

1. No, he's not the 2nd best SF of all time. Erving, Hondo, Baylor, Barry and Lebron are all ahead of him.

2. No, not the best defender since Russell. Wilt (Who was as good as Russell defensively in the late 60s/early 70s), Thurmond, prime Kareem, prime Hakeem, prime Jordan (not as consistent as Pip but more destructive at his best) Mutombo and prime Ben Wallace were all better. I'm sure I've missed out a couple, too.

He has a great case for the best PERIMETER defender of all time, but the great centers just simply have more defensive value.

[97 bulls]

He lacked the competitiveness and "Killer instinct" that the majority of the all time greats had (in the top 20 at least). He WANTED to be second fiddle. It suited his persona.

And,

1. No, he's not the 2nd best SF of all time. Erving, Hondo, Baylor, Barry and Lebron are all ahead of him.

2. No, not the best defender since Russell. Wilt (Who was as good as Russell defensively in the late 60s/early 70s), Thurmond, prime Kareem, prime Hakeem, prime Jordan (not as consistent as Pip but more destructive at his best) Mutombo and prime Ben Wallace were all better. I'm sure I've missed out a couple, too.

He has a great case for the best PERIMETER defender of all time, but the great centers just simply have more defensive value.
what do you mean he lacked competitiveness and killer instinct? The man won six figgn champiionships. Just silly.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I think if lebron played in the early 90s, he'd be nothing more than a drexler type player.

Yea but you also wear a helmet to bed.

[oolalaa]

what do you mean he lacked competitiveness and killer instinct? The man won six figgn champiionships. Just silly.


AS SECOND FIDDLE TO JORDAN!! :hammerhead: It takes a diffenent mind set to LEAD a team to a championship, when you're consistently looked upon to come through 'in the clutch'. Pip found that out in '94 (Or maybe it was mostly becuase he wasn't good enough offensively? :confusedshrug: ).

Oh, and that reminds me, wasn't it you who said that prime Pippen was better than prime Wade?? I think I asked you to tell me how Pippen's defensive edge outweighs Wade's HUUGE offensive discrepancy, but you didn't respond :banana:

[97 bulls]

AS SECOND FIDDLE TO JORDAN!! :hammerhead: It takes a diffenent mind set to LEAD a team to a championship, when you're consistently looked upon to come through 'in the clutch'. Pip found that out in '94 (Or maybe it was mostly becuase he wasn't good enough offensively? :confusedshrug: ).

Oh, and that reminds me, wasn't it you who said that prime Pippen was better than prime Wade?? I think I asked you to tell me how Pippen's defensive edge outweighs Wade's HUUGE offensive discrepancy, but you didn't respond :banana:
The Bulls lost in 94 cuz they werent good enough to beat the knicks. Not because pippen wasnt good enough.

And diminishing pippen contribution is silly. The bulls dont win without jordan or pippen or rodman.

Hell yeah i said pippen was better. Offense be damned. Pippen brings more to the table than wade. More defense, more team play, more intangible, better rebounding, and more durability.

You wanna see who brings more to the table? Compare pippens 95 season to wades season in 08. Pippen had worse teammates played in a better conference, and still faired just about even to wades heat team.

[Legends66NBA7]

And diminishing pippen contribution is silly. The bulls dont win without jordan or pippen or rodman.

Also Horace Grant.

[97 bulls]

Also Horace Grant.
Grant too

[blablabla]

someone forgot about baylor hondo and dr j
and also lebron>pippen all time

[oolalaa]

.


The Bulls lost in 94 cuz they werent good enough to beat the knicks. Not because pippen wasnt good enough.

Nope. If Pippen was good enough, the Bulls would have won. '09 Wade would have led that Bulls team to a victory, that's for sure.


And diminishing pippen contribution is silly. The bulls dont win without jordan or pippen or rodman.

They dont win without Horace Grant either, or Cartwright, or Kukoc, or Paxson, or, Armstrong, or Kerr, or Hodges, or Harper, or Perude, or Levingston, or Longley either. And dont forget about Stacey King!!


Compare pippens 95 season to wades season in 08. Pippen had worse teammates played in a better conference, and still faired just about even to wades heat team.

Why are you using Wade's '08 season and not his '09 campaign?? That's not disingenuous at all :oldlol: Prime Wade = '09 - '11.

[97 bulls]

Nope. If Pippen was good enough, the Bulls would have won. '09 Wade would have led that Bulls team to a victory, that's for sure.



They dont win without Horace Grant either, or Cartwright, or Kukoc, or Paxson, or, Armstrong, or Kerr, or Hodges, or Harper, or Perude, or Levingston, or Longley either. And dont forget about Stacey King!!



Why are you using Wade's '08 season and not his '09 campaign?? That's not disingenuous at all :oldlol: Prime Wade = '09 - '11.
Then why didnt wade win in 09? If i remember correct he didnt even advance to the second round. He had a better team than pippen did inin 95 in 09. He played in a terrible conference. Why does wade get the pass and not pippen?

[TAZORAC]

I think if lebron played in the early 90s, he'd be nothing more than a drexler type player.

Your a dumb ass and don't believe what you said. Lebron is the greatest physical speicemen in the history of the NBA and would be even more dominate in the early 90s against players who didn't even workout.

These guys aren't athletes.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/2573019463_40628f64c7_o.jpg
http://images.mefeedia.com/michael-jordan-1985-rookie-33pts-vs-birds-boston-celtics-34343983-250.jpg

[bwink23]

Typical


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

From 2:10 to 2:42

On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

Horace Grant


"He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."



:confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

From 2:10 to 2:42

On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

Horace Grant


"He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."



:confusedshrug:
I never said jordan didnt make pippen a better player. But you guys try to say he MADE Pippen. That i disagree with.

Obviously your posts are interesting. Allow me to ask this question. In jordan hall of fame speech the first thing he did was thank Pippen. He said he won none of those championships on his own. Why not give Pippen the same respect?

[bwink23]

I never said jordan didnt make pippen a better player. But you guys try to say he MADE Pippen. That i disagree with.

Obviously your posts are interesting. Allow me to ask this question. In jordan hall of fame speech the first thing he did was thank Pippen. He said he won none of those championships on his own. Why not give Pippen the same respect?


Oh i do...i think he's one of the best complimentary players of all time....and i think he and Jordan were the most formidable perimeter duo in NBA history.....:confusedshrug:

[ZenMaster]

Playmaking ability and passing are things that are very coachable.

All around hunger is A LOT harder to instill in your players, but you can do it to some degree.

[Round Mound]

Agree on the 1st Parts because Pippen had that Natural Playmaking Ability and Handles that Nature Gave To Him. His Driving to the Basket was Great and his Defense was Probably the Best for a SF in the 90's. I Don`t Agree with the he is a Top 5 SF of All Time :no: but He Is Definetly in the Top 10 SF of All Time

Better SFs where: Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Dr J, Rick Barry, Hondo and now Lebron James

[97 bulls]

Oh i do...i think he's one of the best complimentary players of all time....and i think he and Jordan were the most formidable perimeter duo in NBA history.....:confusedshrug:
No. He was a franchise player that took a lesser role for the good of the team.

[oolalaa]

Then why didnt wade win in 09? If i remember correct he didnt even advance to the second round. He had a better team than pippen did inin 95 in 09. He played in a terrible conference. Why does wade get the pass and not pippen?

Are you friggin kidding me??

Wade led Haslem, rookie Mario Chalmers, a Marion who only played half the season and missed the playoffs entirely, Jermaine '4 yrs past his prime' O'Neal and Michael 'shot jacking' Beasley to 43 wins and a game 7 loss against a much better/deeper Hawks team in the 1st round. (cook and Moon were playing 25 minutes a game for christ sake!!). He WAS the Miami Heat.

The Bulls in '95 weren't great - Pippen had them on pace for about 42 wins before MJ came back - but that '09 Heat team was a god damn disgrace, probably as bad as Kobe's '06 Laker clown fest. Give me Perdue, Kukoc, Harper and Armstrong (as well as Phil Jackson! Let's not forget about him) over Wade's cast any day.

Yakhouba Diawara. Go look him up.

[Godzuki]

so many 80's players are so overrated here, but its like once you retire and not everybody has seen you play, your legacy/play gets exaggerated ten fold. the obvious stars deserve all of the credit in the world(MJ, Bird, Magic, Malone, etc.) but so many of these other dudes like Pippen, Drexler, and whomever else are so overrated and reinvented as so great its pitiful :facepalm just so unrealistic to those times....

[Nevaeh]

No. He was a franchise player that took a lesser role for the good of the team.

Now this, I kinda disagree with. Pip saw first hand how frustrating it can be, when all eyes are on you to "lead", game after game. The first thing reporters (and fans) ask is "what could the STAR PLAYER have done differently" after a loss (look how LBJ gets thrown under the bus after every game). After ONE SEASON, Pip was already fed up with that sh!t.
:oldlol:

Now, if he's on a team with another Star player (like say, a Westbrook) to take pressure off of him every other game, then that's a different story.

[b1imtf]

Jordan homers love to say "Jordan made Pippen".. but if youre a real hoophead, you know that there are intangibles you just CANNOT TEACH..

Pippen's playmaking ability, passing, and all around hunger are UNTEACHABLE. you dont learn these things, they are innate abilities given from the Gods above.

Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)

:bowdown:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[pierce2008mvp]

Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html

[quote]
Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen

[pauk]

Jordan homers love to say "Jordan made Pippen".. but if youre a real hoophead, you know that there are intangibles you just CANNOT TEACH..

Pippen's playmaking ability, passing, and all around hunger are UNTEACHABLE. you dont learn these things, they are innate abilities given from the Gods above.

Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)

:bowdown:

:no:

[97 bulls]

Are you friggin kidding me??

Wade led Haslem, rookie Mario Chalmers, a Marion who only played half the season and missed the playoffs entirely, Jermaine '4 yrs past his prime' O'Neal and Michael 'shot jacking' Beasley to 43 wins and a game 7 loss against a much better/deeper Hawks team in the 1st round. (cook and Moon were playing 25 minutes a game for christ sake!!). He WAS the Miami Heat.

The Bulls in '95 weren't great - Pippen had them on pace for about 42 wins before MJ came back - but that '09 Heat team was a god damn disgrace, probably as bad as Kobe's '06 Laker clown fest. Give me Perdue, Kukoc, Harper and Armstrong (as well as Phil Jackson! Let's not forget about him) over Wade's cast any day.

Yakhouba Diawara. Go look him up.
Yakhouba Diawara? No need. Pippen had his equal starting the first 17 games of the season at power forward in larry krystowiak. Along with rookie Dickey Simpkins, and Corie Blount.

Pippen had the bulls at 34-30 when jordan came back. Thats a pace of roughly 44 wins right with Wade. Even better when you consider competiton. The fact is the east was just terrible in 09.

Wades teammates were better too. Oneal avg 13/5 with two blocks and could score down low and play defense. Haslem avg 10/8 on 50%. Youd take perdue and co. over Oneal and Haslem? Id agree Kukoc waas better than Beasley but beasly still was solid. Chalmers and Armstrong were basically the same player. Even if Chalmers was a rookie. And you cant discount the 42 games Marion played in. Which was a bigger contribution than ron harper who couldnt pick up the triangle and thus rarely played.

And lets not gloss over how bad the east teams were in 09 compared to 95. The east had five teams over 500 in 09. There were eight teams that were above 500 in 95.

You claim Wade was the Heat? Wade led the league in scoring, Pippen led the league in defensive rating and steals. But Pippen also led his team in every major category. Cant say that about Wade. Pippen ran the Bulls offense. He was there best man defender, the best full court press defender, help defenser. One of the Bulls top 3pt shooters, best low post scorer. Thats what you call being the team legitimately.

And thats why i choose Pippen over Wade. Put them in the same situation and Pippen fairs better.

[bwink23]

No. He was a franchise player that took a lesser role for the good of the team.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Didn't you see Scottie's commercial ?? He said he didn't even think he belonged on the Olympic team....

Franchise players are players brought in to carry a team to a championship...the CENTERPIECE of a championship squad....Scottie NEVER, EVER showed he could be that guy, EVER.


Now channel your inner Pippen homer....

[97 bulls]

Now this, I kinda disagree with. Pip saw first hand how frustrating it can be, when all eyes are on you to "lead", game after game. The first thing reporters (and fans) ask is "what could the STAR PLAYER have done differently" after a loss (look how LBJ gets thrown under the bus after every game). After ONE SEASON, Pip was already fed up with that sh!t.
:oldlol:

Now, if he's on a team with another Star player (like say, a Westbrook) to take pressure off of him every other game, then that's a different story.
Pippen in my opinion felt unappreciated. I mean, he alone was keeping the Bulls afloat. And he was a franchise player. Honestly, how many players are or were capable of being top 3pt in the dpoy and mvp? The only ones i can think of off the top are Wilt, Jordan, Duncan, Olajuwan, and James along with Pip. And unlike the others, who had a whole career to achieve their status 10+ years, Pippen had 1 1/2 years.

How many players can lead bad teams to the playoffs? Go back and look at what Mchale and Worthy did without the main guys from their dynasties. They crashed and burned. Wade after Shaq left? Gave his team to James.

What more do you expect out of a franchise player? Is the only way to qualify as a franchise player is to lead your team to a championship?

[97 bulls]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Didn't you see Scottie's commercial ?? He said he didn't even think he belonged on the Olympic team....

Franchise players are players brought in to carry a team to a championship...the CENTERPIECE of a championship squad....Scottie NEVER, EVER showed he could be that guy, EVER.


Now channel your inner Pippen homer....
That was in 92. There were more accomplished players that deserved to go. Notice he said at the time.

And what in **** are you taking about? What constitutes a franchise player? Did he do what was expected of him in 94 and 95?

[Nevaeh]

Pippen in my opinion felt unappreciated. I mean, he alone was keeping the Bulls afloat. And he was a franchise player. Honestly, how many players are or were capable of being top 3pt in the dpoy and mvp? The only ones i can think of off the top are Wilt, Jordan, Duncan, Olajuwan, and James along with Pip. And unlike the others, who had a whole career to achieve their status 10+ years, Pippen had 1 1/2 years.

How many players can lead bad teams to the playoffs? Go back and look at what Mchale and Worthy did without the main guys from their dynasties. They crashed and burned. Wade after Shaq left? Gave his team to James.

What more do you expect out of a franchise player? Is the only way to qualify as a franchise player is to lead your team to a championship?

That's the Key though. He only had 1 1/2 years, and by then, he was already sick of it (being "Da Man). Now, try being the Man for 3 straight years, 5 straight years, 7 straight years, dealing with failure after failure. I'm not knocking Pip but, realistically, he was in the best position for someone with his personality and ability.

[unbreakable]

pippen led the dream team in ASSISTS and had a much better fg% than jordan.. in fact jordan had the worst fg% on the dream team

:coleman:

[BlackVVaves]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Didn't you see Scottie's commercial ?? He said he didn't even think he belonged on the Olympic team....

Franchise players are players brought in to carry a team to a championship...the CENTERPIECE of a championship squad....Scottie NEVER, EVER showed he could be that guy, EVER.


Now channel your inner Pippen homer....

Talk about taking statements out of context

:facepalm

[97 bulls]

That's the Key though. He only had 1 1/2 years, and by then, he was already sick of it (being "Da Man). Now, try being the Man for 3 straight years, 5 straight years, 7 straight years, dealing with failure after failure. I'm not knocking Pip but, realistically, he was in the best position for someone with his personality and ability.
Where are you getting this from? He wasnt frustrated because he no longerlonger wanted to be the man, he was frustrated cuz he was underpaid (though it was partially his fault), and he was underappreciated. The team was clearly going nowhere and he felt he wasnt getting help. His name was constantly brought up in trade talk. I never once heard him in an interview say he no longer wanted to be the leader of a team. Put yourself in his shoes. You go out, lead youre team in everything, run the offnse and anchor the efense and have the pressure of scoring, and your reward is you hear your name in trade talks

Whats the difference between what pip did and what jordan did after they lost to the pistons in 90? He went off on everybody, even his father who was trying to calm him down.

How bout kobe? He demaded a trade when things werent going his way?

And he had one of the biggest if not the biggest shoes to feel the when jordan left. How many great players have turned down golden opportunities with the bulls? Hill? Tmac? James?

[Nevaeh]

Where are you getting this from? He wasnt frustrated because he no longerlonger wanted to be the man, he was frustrated cuz he was underpaid (though it was partially his fault), and he was underappreciated. The team was clearly going nowhere and he felt he wasnt getting help. His name was constantly brought up in trade talk. I never once heard him in an interview say he no longer wanted to be the leader of a team. Put yourself in his shoes. You go out, lead youre team in everything, run the offnse and anchor the efense and have the pressure of scoring, and your reward is you hear your name in trade talks

Whats the difference between what pip did and what jordan did after they lost to the pistons in 90? He went off on everybody, even his father who was trying to calm him down.

How bout kobe? He demaded a trade when things werent going his way?

And he had one of the biggest if not the biggest shoes to feel the when jordan left. How many great players have turned down golden opportunities with the bulls? Hill? Tmac? James?

Yeah, he felt underpaid after signing that long contract (think it was from 91-98), but don't act like he was innocent either, telling the media how he "wanted to be traded" or how he "think this may be his last year as a Bull", because he didn't like the terms of the contract.

What he basically did was improve a lot AFTER he had signed the contract, and was banking on a renegotiation with the Bulls. Of course, anyone who's read about them knew that Bulls management would try and nickle and dime any player they had, may sign or may re-sign.

Pip was underpaid long before he became "da man", but he was also under contract at the time. I remember what he was going through back then, and it was basically the pressure of being in "the hot seat". Pip was a sometimes moody player, who enjoyed the role of "Right Hand Man" more, and he proved it throughout his career.

You wanted him to have a career as "the Man" because you like him as a player. Unfortunately (or maybe even fortunately) it didn't work out that way.

[RoseCity07]

Jordan definitely pushed Pippen and worked a ton with him to help Scottie Develop his game. Read Playing For Keeps. You'll learn so much about what went on with the Bulls during the Jordan era.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, he felt underpaid after signing that long contract (think it was from 91-98), but don't act like he was innocent either, telling the media how he "wanted to be traded" or how he "think this may be his last year as a Bull", because he didn't like the terms of the contract.

What he basically did was improve a lot AFTER he had signed the contract, and was banking on a renegotiation with the Bulls. Of course, anyone who's read about them knew that Bulls management would try and nickle and dime any player they had, may sign or may re-sign.

Pip was underpaid long before he became "da man", but he was also under contract at the time. I remember what he was going through back then, and it was basically the pressure of being in "the hot seat". Pip was a sometimes moody player, who enjoyed the role of "Right Hand Man" more, and he proved it throughout his career.

You wanted him to have a career as "the Man" because you like him as a player. Unfortunately (or maybe even fortunately) it didn't work out that way.
Ok, but that doesnt mean he didnt want to be the man. He wanted to be paid. I admit a portion of it was his fault. But it doesnt mean or say anything about his abilities on the court. Again i never heard him say id rather play second fiddle or i dont want the big shot or i dont want to be the man. He didnt want to be traded because of not wanting to be the man, he wante to be traded cuz he felt disrespected.

I mean, the bulls would lose a game, pippen would drop 25/9/7/3/2 be the best defender and anchor the defense and run the offense. And people like you would feel he didnt do enough. It was all his fault. Id be pissed too. But that doesnt mean he didnt want to be the man.

The problem as i see it honestly? Is that people like you compare him to Michael Jordan. And i think we all agree he was never on jordans level.

[G-train]

[QUOTE]----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sa...ag-033012.html

Quote:
Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen

[G-train]

Pippen was a brilliant player, but by his own admission and several other accounts benefitted hugely from Jordan's teaching, and would not have become the player he was. Probably still would have been good though.
Common sense really.

[Nevaeh]

Ok, but that doesnt mean he didnt want to be the man. He wanted to be paid. I admit a portion of it was his fault. But it doesnt mean or say anything about his abilities on the court. Again i never heard him say id rather play second fiddle or i dont want the big shot or i dont want to be the man. He didnt want to be traded because of not wanting to be the man, he wante to be traded cuz he felt disrespected.

I mean, the bulls would lose a game, pippen would drop 25/9/7/3/2 be the best defender and anchor the defense and run the offense. And people like you would feel he didnt do enough. It was all his fault. Id be pissed too. But that doesnt mean he didnt want to be the man.

The problem as i see it honestly? Is that people like you compare him to Michael Jordan. And i think we all agree he was never on jordans level.

Dude, how often does Lebron get slammed, with stat lines exactly like that or better? Jordan's been recently getting slammed for games where he was the only one showing up to play, back in the 80s.
:oldlol:

No one's expecting Pip to be Jordan. What YOU'RE expecting is for him to be treated on the level of a FRANCHISE player. Unfortunately his sample size is too small for him to be fully counted as one.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was a brilliant player, but by his own admission and several other accounts benefitted hugely from Jordan's teaching, and would not have become the player he was. Probably still would have been good though.
Common sense really.
What accounts? The relationship between jordan and pippen is no different than anyother teammate relationship. Its well documented that they helped each other in practice. Did jordan help pippen become a better player? Sure. Did he make pippen? No.

l

[G-train]

Dude, how often does Lebron get slammed, with stat lines exactly like that or better? Jordan's been recently getting slammed for games where he was the only one showing up to play, back in the 80s.
:oldlol:

No one's expecting Pip to be Jordan. What YOU'RE expecting is for him to be treated on the level of a FRANCHISE player. Unfortunately his sample size is too small for him to be fully counted as one.

Lebron surpassed Pip at age 21 in his third season. Just a matter of longevity after that. That's no shot at Pip though.

[97 bulls]

Dude, how often does Lebron get slammed, with stat lines exactly like that or better? Jordan's been recently getting slammed for games where he was the only one showing up to play, back in the 80s.
:oldlol:

No one's expecting Pip to be Jordan. What YOU'RE expecting is for him to be treated on the level of a FRANCHISE player. Unfortunately his sample size is too small for him to be fully counted as one.
But noone is saying James isn't a franchise player. And you still are showing where pippen said he no longer wanted to be the leader of the bulls.

I think I've asked you to produce something showing that pippen no longer wanted to be the man. And not someones opinion, but Pippens mouth.

I still don't see what his sample size has to do with this discussion. In his two years the bulls made the playoffs, were above 500 both years, he finished third and second in the mvp and dpoy voting. He was allstar game mvp leading vote getter for the all nba one year. And 1st team both years in allnba and alldefense. And I could list more accomplishments.

Another question I asked you earlier, and ill ask again, what could he have done realisticly in order to be considered a franchise player in your opinion?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't doubt that playing with Jordan helped Scottie's development, but the OP is right that Scottie had things that some players simply can't learn.


Whatever the reason, Scottie eagerly immersed himself in the intricacies of the Triangle — so much so that he became the organizer of the offense. It was Scottie who made sure that everybody was in the proper position so that we'd be ready to spin the wheel. It was Scottie who made sure that everybody was in the proper position so that we'd be ready to spin the wheel. And it was Scottie who was also our defensive overseer on the court. Sometimes I'd gasp when an otherwise intelligent player would either double-team the ball when he wasn't supposed to, or confound our game plan by rotating into a verboten area. When I'd challenge the player about his transgressions, he'd more than likely say, "Scottie sent me." Then I'd question Scottie, only to find that his on-the-spot reasoning made sense.

Phil Jackson also called Scottie the most intelligent defensive player he ever coached.

As a basketball fan, it's hard not to appreciate what a complete player Scottie Pippen, especially at the top of his game from '94-'96.

Pippen is definitely the type of player that should be remembered. He's one of the most unique players of all time. Despite being a good scorer, that wasn't why he was one of the best players in the league, a rarity for a perimeter player, particularly one who isn't a point guard.

I do think that the Bulls being a contender in '94 while not being anywhere near the most talented team and above .500 with a weak roster in '95 showed that Pippen could be a franchise player.

[Calabis]

Jordan homers love to say "Jordan made Pippen".. but if youre a real hoophead, you know that there are intangibles you just CANNOT TEACH..

Pippen's playmaking ability, passing, and all around hunger are UNTEACHABLE. you dont learn these things, they are innate abilities given from the Gods above.

Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)

:bowdown:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/calabis/1217544502722.gif

[nycelt84]

Pippen is a legend but lets be serious here he is neither a Top 20 player all time, the 2nd best SF ever nor the best defender since Russell.

[rodman91]

"Pippen is a top 20 player, 2nd best SF of all time (behind bird, tied with lebron until lebron gets 2 rings), and greatest defender since Bill Russell. (bill, pip, and duncan 3 best defenders of all time)"

DELETE IT.

[Kurosawa0]

Pippen probably would've been a great player regardless of where he went, but playing with Jordan did raise him to level he probably would've never made it to otherwise.

People do forget how great Pippen was though. He wasn't Mo Williams or somebody. Pippen was easily the best SF of his era.

[eliteballer]

Pippen was like the 5th pick in the draft, he would have been good regardless

[Dizzle-2k7]

55 wins without Jordan and no proper replacement :bowdown:

[DJ Leon Smith]

Pippen was like the 5th pick in the draft, he would have been good regardless

EXCELLENT POINT.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/850/988/johnkoncak_display_image.jpg

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/walker-and-stern-1986-draft.jpg

eliteballer, what do you think of the best SF of this generation, Evan Turner? You should check his rookie stats compared to Pippen's. Plus he was the SECOND overall pick! I mean, if being the fifth pick means you'll be good regardless, being the second pick must mean you're automatically a GOAT candidate.

Just like Hasheem Thabeet.

[97 bulls]

EXCELLENT POINT.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/850/988/johnkoncak_display_image.jpg

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/walker-and-stern-1986-draft.jpg

eliteballer, what do you think of the best SF of this generation, Evan Turner? You should check his rookie stats compared to Pippen's. Plus he was the SECOND overall pick! I mean, if being the fifth pick means you'll be good regardless, being the second pick must mean you're automatically a GOAT candidate.

Just like Hasheem Thabeet.
You know what he meant. His responses is to those that act as if Scottie Pippen was some orphan that jordan found on the street and decided to teach him how to play basketball.

The premise is that Pippen was already talented when he came to the league.

[DJ Leon Smith]

You know what he meant. His responses is to those that act as if Scottie Pippen was some orphan that jordan found on the street and decided to teach him how to play basketball.

The premise is that Pippen was already talented when he came to the league.

I know what he said. Stand by your words or don't say them. He claims everyone drafted fifth must be a great player. I probably should have read it with my retard filter glasses on though, I am on the insidehoops forums after all.

BTW someone should tell the Nuggets to go find Nikoloz Tskitishvili ASAP. He's the missing piece of their championship puzzle!

[97 bulls]

I know what he said. Stand by your words or don't say them. He claims everyone drafted fifth must be a great player. I probably should have read it with my retard filter glasses on though, I am on the insidehoops forums after all.

BTW someone should tell the Nuggets to go find Nikoloz Tskitishvili ASAP. He's the missing piece of their championship puzzle!
So should we assume that youre saying that fifth picks in the draft are busts? I could take your post out of context too. If so that would be a dumb post (according to your way of thinking) cuz thats not true.

[97 bulls]

What alot of you guys are doing is simply conjecture. What if michael jordan didnt watch david thompson? Or didnt have older siblings to create that drive and dertemination to compete? Or even phil jackson to teach him or maybe instill the team game concept? Or what if he didnt go to North Carolina and be coached by dean smith and work and learn from james worthy? What if he never grew to be 6'6? Its just silly

[guy]

What alot of you guys are doing is simply conjecture. What if michael jordan didnt watch david thompson? Or didnt have older siblings to create that drive and dertemination to compete? Or even phil jackson to teach him or maybe instill the team game concept? Or what if he didnt go to North Carolina and be coached by dean smith and work and learn from james worthy? What if he never grew to be 6'6? Its just silly

I haven't read the whole thread. But I don't think people actually discredit Pippen for that. It would be stupid to. I think what people have a problem with is when people diminish Jordan's greatness by saying he only won when Pippen became a star and try to compare Jordan winning with Pippen to Kobe winning with Shaq/Gasol or Lebron winning with Wade who were all already established stars in the league before they teamed up. Or they try to contrast it with Lebron never winning in Cleveland and not having much talent. People ignore that Jordan had a huge hand in the development of Pippen.

[tpols]

Pippen would be a top 5 player in todays league at worst.. so people saying he couldn't be the 'man'(stupid made up concept) would be wrong.

[97 bulls]

I haven't read the whole thread. But I don't think people actually discredit Pippen for that. It would be stupid to. I think what people have a problem with is when people diminish Jordan's greatness by saying he only won when Pippen became a star and try to compare Jordan winning with Pippen to Kobe winning with Shaq/Gasol or Lebron winning with Wade who were all already established stars in the league before they teamed up. Or they try to contrast it with Lebron never winning in Cleveland and not having much talent. People ignore that Jordan had a huge hand in the development of Pippen.
People dont discredit Pippen, Jordanites discredit Pippen. And its true Jordan idnt win until Pippen came and evolved. So what? Its no different than any other alltime great. But as ive stated before, Jordanites created this notion that Jordan won all six of his championships on his own. Then attack other great like Kobe Bryaant by saying he only won with the best talent. You guys created that monster.

This whole forum has evolved into a "who was able to win with the least help?" And its silly cuz the answer is no one has been able to win without having at least top three talent /help in their respective time.

Even when Olajuwan took the Rockets to their championships. The Rockets were the favorite in 94. And while they werent the favorite in 95, they beat a young inexperienced Magic team. Its just dumb

[bwink23]

Yeah, he felt underpaid after signing that long contract (think it was from 91-98), but don't act like he was innocent either, telling the media how he "wanted to be traded" or how he "think this may be his last year as a Bull", because he didn't like the terms of the contract.

What he basically did was improve a lot AFTER he had signed the contract, and was banking on a renegotiation with the Bulls. Of course, anyone who's read about them knew that Bulls management would try and nickle and dime any player they had, may sign or may re-sign.

Pip was underpaid long before he became "da man", but he was also under contract at the time. I remember what he was going through back then, and it was basically the pressure of being in "the hot seat". Pip was a sometimes moody player, who enjoyed the role of "Right Hand Man" more, and he proved it throughout his career.

You wanted him to have a career as "the Man" because you like him as a player. Unfortunately (or maybe even fortunately) it didn't work out that way.


Pippen was advised NOT to sign a long term deal...but Pippen, coming from a poor background, was crazy about getting financial security. He was afraid of career ending injuries and things of that nature. It bit him in the ass.

[bwink23]

But noone is saying James isn't a franchise player. And you still are showing where pippen said he no longer wanted to be the leader of the bulls.

I think I've asked you to produce something showing that pippen no longer wanted to be the man. And not someones opinion, but Pippens mouth.

I still don't see what his sample size has to do with this discussion. In his two years the bulls made the playoffs, were above 500 both years, he finished third and second in the mvp and dpoy voting. He was allstar game mvp leading vote getter for the all nba one year. And 1st team both years in allnba and alldefense. And I could list more accomplishments.

Another question I asked you earlier, and ill ask again, what could he have done realisticly in order to be considered a franchise player in your opinion?


Franchise players are players you can build a team around for YEARS TO COME....that wasn't Scottie Pippen, his peak was short-lived, and even in that short stint, he was never a player who could put a team on his shoulders.

Your overrating of Pippen is LAUGHABLE.

[guy]

People dont discredit Pippen, Jordanites discredit Pippen. And its true Jordan idnt win until Pippen came and evolved. So what? Its no different than any other alltime great. But as ive stated before, Jordanites created this notion that Jordan won all six of his championships on his own. Then attack other great like Kobe Bryaant by saying he only won with the best talent. You guys created that monster.

This whole forum has evolved into a "who was able to win with the least help?" And its silly cuz the answer is no one has been able to win without having at least top three talent /help in their respective time.

Even when Olajuwan took the Rockets to their championships. The Rockets were the favorite in 94. And while they werent the favorite in 95, they beat a young inexperienced Magic team. Its just dumb

Doesn't seem like you understood what I said at all.

[97 bulls]

Doesn't seem like you understood what I said at all.
I understood your point totally. Your not fooling me Guy. You try to come off as unbiazed and a mediator, but you're not much different than most other Jordanites. Be realistic, those Kobe fans are doing the same thing you guys do. You guys knock Kobe by saying that he wouldn't have won without Shaq and Gasol. They just have the comeback that Jordan didnt win on his own neither. Then you guys try to diminish Pippens abilities and that's when guys like myself step in and gotta check you.

[97 bulls]

Franchise players are players you can build a team around for YEARS TO COME....that wasn't Scottie Pippen, his peak was short-lived, and even in that short stint, he was never a player who could put a team on his shoulders.

Your overrating of Pippen is LAUGHABLE.
The man finished third in MVP voting one year, and second in DPOY voting the other. The teams he led greatly overachieved. What more could he have done? Not score. Phil Jackson said he didnt want Pippen trying to go out and score 26 ppg cuz it would've been at the expense of winning.

And he spent his peak playing alongside Jordan. My God you can't be this simple. Are uoi a plant? Am I being punked on the internet?

[bwink23]

The man finished third in MVP voting one year, and second in DPOY voting the other. The teams he led greatly overachieved. What more could he have done? Not score. Phil Jackson said he didnt want Pippen trying to go out and score 26 ppg cuz it would've been at the expense of winning.

And he spent his peak playing alongside Jordan. My God you can't be this simple. Are uoi a plant? Am I being punked on the internet?


Sorry dude....i grew up watching Pippen from DAY ONE....trust me kid, he wasn't THAT guy....franchise player, LAUGHABLE :lol

[juju151111]

Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pippen n Pip>>Gasol

[97 bulls]

Sorry dude....i grew up watching Pippen from DAY ONE....trust me kid, he wasn't THAT guy....franchise player, LAUGHABLE :lol
Let me ask you. Did Pippen put the Bulls on his back in game 6 of the 92 finals? And who would you take to start your team between Kevin Mchale and Scottie Pippen?

[bizil]

Anytime u can say a perimeter guy is a great passer, great defender, great rebounder for the position, and very good scorer, the guy is a great player. This is who Pippen was. And in terms of fundamental skills when u throw in defense, Pip could be the best SF of all time in that regard. The only thing u can say about Pip is that u have other legendary perimeter guys just as great all around or close (most likely come up short on defense) who are alpha dog material. U have guys MJ, Kobe, Bron, Hondo, Wade, Big O, and West who very good to great in all facets AND alpha dogs. Or u a Magic, Bird, or Barry who had it all except for Pip's D BUT they were alpha dogs.

If u give Pip that alpha dog side, I feel he would be knocking on the top 10 GOAT. The reason why is because he has:

6

[tpols]

[QUOTE=bizil]
7

[bizil]

Is there any player that has had these individual awards and multiple titles that is out of the top 25?

To be honest, I don't think there is a player that decorated who is out of the top 25. I know some people may put Pip in their top 25, but for me and the majority who know the game, Pip would be at the highest in the 30 and lower range. If u look at the top 10 GOAT, only Russell, MJ, and Kareem have as many rings. Coupled with all the other accolades and the fact that Pip revolutionized his position, it has to be the alpha dog factor that keeps Pip from being ranked higher. Other second option types like a McHale didn't accomplish as much for his career as Pip. But McHale was still perceived as an alpha dog level player who happened to be playing with Bird. Thus many have McHale rated higher on a GOAT list than Pip.

U have many great combinations in NBA history that featured multiple alpha dog types. MJ-Pip was a great combination, but Pip was never that alpha dog type. What made MJ and Pip special was the fact that u had two epic all around players who were freakish athletes. MJ was the ultimate alpha dog and GOAT, so it took them to the ultimate level. But Pip was an awesome all around threat who took a lot of pressure off MJ as well. It was the perfect Batman-Robin kind of combo. Combos like Wade-Bron, Big O-Kareem, Magic-Kareem, West-Baylor, Kobe-Shaq, Wade-Shaq, etc were like Superman-Batman combos.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=bizil]Anytime u can say a perimeter guy is a great passer, great defender, great rebounder for the position, and very good scorer, the guy is a great player. This is who Pippen was. And in terms of fundamental skills when u throw in defense, Pip could be the best SF of all time in that regard. The only thing u can say about Pip is that u have other legendary perimeter guys just as great all around or close (most likely come up short on defense) who are alpha dog material. U have guys MJ, Kobe, Bron, Hondo, Wade, Big O, and West who very good to great in all facets AND alpha dogs. Or u a Magic, Bird, or Barry who had it all except for Pip's D BUT they were alpha dogs.

If u give Pip that alpha dog side, I feel he would be knocking on the top 10 GOAT. The reason why is because he has:

6

[bizil]

No Biz you have him in your top 30. I have him top 20. What hurts him in my opinion is that he played in Jordans shadow.

I still dont see why hes not an "alpha dog". Bottom line is when you compare his sitiation to other players you would call "alpha dog" he led his team just as well.

Compare his 94 bulls team to Jordans team in 98 before Pippen came back.

Compare what Pippen did in 95 to Wade in 09. Or Bryants 06 or 07 season.

Roughly the same record, anx similar results

I respect your opinions and u know the game. But I can guarantee you if you took a poll of all the commentators on ESPN, TNT, and NBA TV that they wouldn't have Pip in their top 20 players. It would be at the highest in the top 30, maybe late 20's. But it's gonna be closer to 30 than to 20 trust me.

Once again Pippen did lead that Bulls team in '94. But u had a legendary coach, an all star PF, and team that played well together and overacheived. Pip could cover so many holes on that team. But the bottom line is if that team needed a shootout to win games consistently, it couldn't get the job done. U had a team like the Knicks who like to grind it out and slow it down anyway. Which is why u needed a guy like MJ who could dominate in ANY situation. For that Bulls team to take the next step, Pip simply had to score more points BOTTOM LINE! That team didn't have enough scoring to take the next step. Put MJ in Pippen's place and that team goes a lot farther in my book. BJ, Grant, and Kukoc around MJ to provide scoring support is MUCH more viable than Pip as the lead dog. And MJ could STILL pass just as good or better and defend just as good.

[97 bulls]

I respect your opinions and u know the game. But I can guarantee you if you took a poll of all the commentators on ESPN, TNT, and NBA TV that they wouldn't have Pip in their top 20 players. It would be at the highest in the top 30, maybe late 20's. But it's gonna be closer to 30 than to 20 trust me.

Once again Pippen did lead that Bulls team in '94. But u had a legendary coach, an all star PF, and team that played well together and overacheived. Pip could cover so many holes on that team. But the bottom line is if that team needed a shootout to win games consistently, it couldn't get the job done. U had a team like the Knicks who like to grind it out and slow it down anyway. Which is why u needed a guy like MJ who could dominate in ANY situation. For that Bulls team to take the next step, Pip simply had to score more points BOTTOM LINE! That team didn't have enough scoring to take the next step. Put MJ in Pippen's place and that team goes a lot farther in my book. BJ, Grant, and Kukoc around MJ to provide scoring support is MUCH more viable than Pip as the lead dog. And MJ could STILL pass just as good or better and defend just as good.
Pippens not Jordan. Jordan is the greatest ever. I doubt the Bulls beat the Knicks in 94 regardless without either Jordan or Pippen. The Bulls, were barely beating the knicks with the two. And im sorry, but Jordan could never run the a team like Pippen.

The way I see it, your problem is that you wouldve been more impressed with Pippen had he avg 26 ppg even if it meant that the bulls would end up with a sub .500 record. Just look at your feelings on Kevin McHale. What did he do when he took over the Celtics in 89 when Bird went down? The Celtics struggled to stay above .500 and finished with 42 wins. 8 comming against expamsion teams. You don't see the double standard there?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Let me ask you. Did Pippen put the Bulls on his back in game 6 of the 92 finals? And who would you take to start your team between Kevin Mchale and Scottie Pippen?

Put them on his back? He had like 3 baskets in the quarter and a couple of assists. Durant has done more in the 4th quarter in like 8 playoff games just this season alone.

[Asukal]

Pippens not Jordan. Jordan is the greatest ever. I doubt the Bulls beat the Knicks in 94 regardless without either Jordan or Pippen. The Bulls, were barely beating the knicks with the two. And im sorry, but Jordan could never run the a team like Pippen.

The way I see it, your problem is that you wouldve been more impressed with Pippen had he avg 26 ppg even if it meant that the bulls would end up with a sub .500 record. Just look at your feelings on Kevin McHale. What did he do when he took over the Celtics in 89 when Bird went down? The Celtics struggled to stay above .500 and finished with 42 wins. 8 comming against expamsion teams. You don't see the double standard there?

I don't agree with this. We have no way of knowing what Jordan could do as a fascilitator of the offense but in a small sample of a few games in 89 he did really great, better than Pippen. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Put them on his back? He had like 3 baskets in the quarter and a couple of assists. Durant has done more in the 4th quarter in like 8 playoff games just this season alone.
What? He scored 11 pts, and shut down Drexler. Along with 3 assists, and 3 rebounds and few steals. And the Bulls were down 15.

[Sarcastic]

What? He scored 11 pts, and shut down Drexler. Along with 3 assists, and 3 rebounds and few steals. And the Bulls were down 15.

Having moments of excellence does not mean that a player can do it on a consistent basis, when called upon. James Harden has stepped up for the Thunder this year, and carried the team at times. That doesn't mean you could make him the #1 guy on a team and go deep in the playoffs.


Pippen is an all time great player. One would expect him to have great moments. He just didn't have it in him to be the #1 guy. It's not really a knock on him. It's just who he was. He played his role as well as he possibly could. But it's very hard to put a guy like that ahead of true alpha dogs that step up and carry their teams all the time.

[97 bulls]

I don't agree with this. We have no way of knowing what Jordan could do as a fascilitator of the offense but in a small sample of a few games in 89 he did really great, better than Pippen. :confusedshrug:
Im not saying Jordan couldnt run an offense, but not like Pippen. Pippen was a natural pg.

[97 bulls]

Having moments of excellence does not mean that a player can do it on a consistent basis, when called upon. James Harden has stepped up for the Thunder this year, and carried the team at times. That doesn't mean you could make him the #1 guy on a team and go deep in the playoffs.


Pippen is an all time great player. One would expect him to have great moments. He just didn't have it in him to be the #1 guy. It's not really a knock on him. It's just who he was. He played his role as well as he possibly could. But it's very hard to put a guy like that ahead of true alpha dogs that step up and carry their teams all the time.
**** the alpha dog bullshit. Im talking about results. What good is it to drop 30 pts per night if you lose? Show me a player that faired better than Pippen did under similar situations.

[97 bulls]

Having moments of excellence does not mean that a player can do it on a consistent basis, when called upon. James Harden has stepped up for the Thunder this year, and carried the team at times. That doesn't mean you could make him the #1 guy on a team and go deep in the playoffs.


Pippen is an all time great player. One would expect him to have great moments. He just didn't have it in him to be the #1 guy. It's not really a knock on him. It's just who he was. He played his role as well as he possibly could. But it's very hard to put a guy like that ahead of true alpha dogs that step up and carry their teams all the time.
That wasnt the only moment of excellence for Pip. Thats just an example. Pippen dominated games with versitility. I could show great defensive games, too. But he said Pippen couldnt put a team on his back. I just proved him wrong

[305Baller]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/693172_o.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

What? He scored 11 pts, and shut down Drexler. Along with 3 assists, and 3 rebounds and few steals. And the Bulls were down 15.

I'm pretty sure he didn't score 11 in the 4th, and even if he did, only 2-3 baskets came during the 5-7 minute span when Chicago was mounting their comeback.

[Sarcastic]

**** the alpha dog bullshit. Im talking about results. What good is it to drop 30 pts per night if you lose? Show me a player that faired better than Pippen did under similar situations.


Well, that 30 per night is what separates Jordan from Pippen. They were both great passers and rebounders, giving you 6 or 7 of each per night. They are both elite defenders. But Jordan on an average night would give you 30 points, and Pippen would give you 20 or less.

You're really downplaying the ability to score. It's the most important aspect of basketball, and the thing that separates stars from all stars, and greats from legends. Pippen scoring just 5 more points per game on average would put him in a totally different class.

[97 bulls]

I'm pretty sure he didn't score 11 in the 4th, and even if he did, only 2-3 baskets came during the 5-7 minute span when Chicago was mounting their comeback.
Lol. He did score 11. It was in the fourth. And Jordan was on the bench. You guys said he wasnt capable of putting a team on his back. I pointed out a time when he did. It sjows he was capable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lol. He did score 11. It was in the fourth. And Jordan was on the bench. You guys said he wasnt capable of putting a team on his back. I pointed out a time when he did. It sjows he was capable.

Can you point me to a video of the full game? I can't find it.

[Sarcastic]

Lol. He did score 11. It was in the fourth. And Jordan was on the bench. You guys said he wasnt capable of putting a team on his back. I pointed out a time when he did. It sjows he was capable.

Where was he in game 7 in 1990 against the Pistons when he had 2 points. Where was he in game 6 in 1989 when he had a headache, and played 1 minute?

[97 bulls]

Well, that 30 per night is what separates Jordan from Pippen. They were both great passers and rebounders, giving you 6 or 7 of each per night. They are both elite defenders. But Jordan on an average night would give you 30 points, and Pippen would give you 20 or less.

You're really downplaying the ability to score. It's the most important aspect of basketball, and the thing that separates stars from all stars, and greats from legends. Pippen scoring just 5 more points per game on average would put him in a totally different class.
Hold on, are we talking about two different things? Im talking about what it takes to be a franchise player. It seems like your talking about scoring. There is a difference.

[97 bulls]

Can you point me to a video of the full game? I can't find it.
I thought you had all the Jordan games. I dont have it. But they replayed that game on NBA TV alot when Pippen went to the hall of fame.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I thought you had all the Jordan games. I dont have it. But they replayed that game on NBA TV alot when Pippen went to the hall of fame.

I do have the game on DVD somewhere. Figured it was on YT where it's more easily accessible.

[97 bulls]

Where was he in game 7 in 1990 against the Pistons when he had 2 points. Where was he in game 6 in 1989 when he had a headache, and played 1 minute?
Lol 2 games? One in which he was injured? Let me tell you somethimg, there isnt one player that you can name, thay I could go back and post a bad game of theirs.

[97 bulls]

I do have the game on DVD somewhere. Figured it was on YT where it's more easily accessible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqkVbO0bUFs

Found an abbreviated version of that fourth quarter. It shows Pippen made 4 shots and I know he hit a 3. Which would equal 11 pts. Thats the only thing about the YouTube games. They really only show Jordans exploits. Not the whole game

[rodman91]

Rich man's Andre Iguodala.

[nycelt84]

Pippens not Jordan. Jordan is the greatest ever. I doubt the Bulls beat the Knicks in 94 regardless without either Jordan or Pippen. The Bulls, were barely beating the knicks with the two. And im sorry, but Jordan could never run the a team like Pippen.

The way I see it, your problem is that you wouldve been more impressed with Pippen had he avg 26 ppg even if it meant that the bulls would end up with a sub .500 record. Just look at your feelings on Kevin McHale. What did he do when he took over the Celtics in 89 when Bird went down? The Celtics struggled to stay above .500 and finished with 42 wins. 8 comming against expamsion teams. You don't see the double standard there?

Kevin McHale is not a Top 20 player neither and no one considers him to be so I'm not sure why he's being brought up.

[JMT]

"Intangibles" are pretty much defined as things you can't coach or teach. :facepalm

[guy]

I understood your point totally. Your not fooling me Guy. You try to come off as unbiazed and a mediator, but you're not much different than most other Jordanites. Be realistic, those Kobe fans are doing the same thing you guys do. You guys knock Kobe by saying that he wouldn't have won without Shaq and Gasol. They just have the comeback that Jordan didnt win on his own neither. Then you guys try to diminish Pippens abilities and that's when guys like myself step in and gotta check you.

First of all, no is checking anyone. This is a message board, not some rough neighborhood. People put their opinions on here and sometimes they differ with others. Anyone that feels the need to say they are "checking" people takes message boards way too seriously and probably has some insecurities.

Second, no on is trying to "fool" you.

Anyway, the whole Jordan winning with Pippen vs. Kobe winning with Shaq thing all started back when Kobe fans tried to equate the two. Its not a crime to point out how incredibly stupid it is. And its not a knock on Pippen to say he clearly isn't as great as Shaq was in those title runs. Thats not diminishing. Thats speaking facts.

And like I said, my point was Kobe and Lebron currently didn't have a hand in making Shaq, Gasol, Wade, or Bosh better players. They had no role in their development from just potential to actually becoming a star player. Jordan should be commended for how great of a player Pippen was, not have his achievements diminished because he needed him to win. And thats not a knock on Pippen cause a player needs to learn from somewhere like you said, and I'm also not saying Jordan was even close to 100% responsible for how great Pippen became. And I'm not sayin Kobe's achievements should be diminished, but when two players are compared, these things will ultimately come up and relative to one another it will ultimately look like one's achievements are diminished when the reality is they are just being put into proper context.

[97 bulls]

Kevin McHale is not a Top 20 player neither and no one considers him to be so I'm not sure why he's being brought up.
Bizil said Mchale was ranked higher than Pippen.

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqkVbO0bUFs

Found an abbreviated version of that fourth quarter. It shows Pippen made 4 shots and I know he hit a 3. Which would equal 11 pts. Thats the only thing about the YouTube games. They really only show Jordans exploits. Not the whole game

No, it shows that he made 3 shots (one of which was a semi-transition layup), and I doubt there was a 3-pointer on top of that. So it looks like 6 points in the 4th and maybe an assist or two. Then MJ comes in and hits 4 shots and gets two steals in the last 6:00, yet somehow it's Pippen who carried the Bulls home? Come on, now. :oldlol:

I will admit that that's probably one of the MOST offensively assertive playoff 4th quarters I've seen Pippen play. But if that's what you're holding up as a shining beacon of supposed "clutchness" and alpha dog mentality, it proves the point I and others have been making: he just wasn't THAT dude.

[97 bulls]

First of all, no is checking anyone. This is a message board, not some rough neighborhood. People put their opinions on here and sometimes they differ with others. Anyone that feels the need to say they are "checking" people takes message boards way too seriously and probably has some insecurities.

Second, no on is trying to "fool" you.

Anyway, the whole Jordan winning with Pippen vs. Kobe winning with Shaq thing all started back when Kobe fans tried to equate the two. Its not a crime to point out how incredibly stupid it is. And its not a knock on Pippen to say he clearly isn't as great as Shaq was in those title runs. Thats not diminishing. Thats speaking facts.

And like I said, my point was Kobe and Lebron currently didn't have a hand in making Shaq, Gasol, Wade, or Bosh better players. They had no role in their development from just potential to actually becoming a star player. Jordan should be commended for how great of a player Pippen was, not have his achievements diminished because he needed him to win. And thats not a knock on Pippen cause a player needs to learn from somewhere like you said, and I'm also not saying Jordan was even close to 100% responsible for how great Pippen became. And I'm not sayin Kobe's achievements should be diminished, but when two players are compared, these things will ultimately come up and relative to one another it will ultimately look like one's achievements are diminished when the reality is they are just being put into proper context.
And that my friend is conjecture. We dont know what Pippen would do under different circumstances. Why not just talk about what we saw from Pippen on the court.

The things that made Pippen great id say Jordan really had nothing to do with. Pippen was already a PG and knew how to run a team. Playing against Jordan helped Pippens man defense, but he was a arguably the greatest help defender ever. I think Jordan or hepled develope his ability to score, but not his ability to be a PG. Jordan was versitle, but his versitility was different from Pippen. Jordans game was different from Pippen.

And lets not forget, Jordan is a terrible talent evaluator. And why didnt Jordan turn any other player into a hall of fame caliber player? Brad Sellers? BJ Armstrong? Any of the players he played with during his Wizards days. He hasnt hit on a draft pick yet with the Bobcats

[guy]

And that my friend is conjecture. We dont know what Pippen would do under different circumstances. Why not just talk about what we saw from Pippen on the court.

The things that made Pippen great id say Jordan really had nothing to do with. Pippen was already a PG and knew how to run a team. Playing against Jordan helped Pippens man defense, but he was a arguably the greatest help defender ever. I think Jordan or hepled develope his ability to score, but not his ability to be a PG. Jordan was versitle, but his versitility was different from Pippen. Jordans game was different from Pippen.

And lets not forget, Jordan is a terrible talent evaluator. And why didnt Jordan turn any other player into a hall of fame caliber player? Brad Sellers? BJ Armstrong? Any of the players he played with during his Wizards days. He hasnt hit on a draft pick yet with the Bobcats

You're right. We don't know what he would do under different circumstances. Which also means that it really doesn't matter if Pippen could've became a great player without the help of Jordan, cause the fact remains that he did become a great player with alot of help from Jordan. Its pretty clear just from watching the two and the progression of Pippen's careers that Jordan helped Pippen alot, and even if it wasn't clear from that, its widely been documented that he did.

Either way, that wasn't my point. This isn't about Pippen's standing, which I've said multiple times doesn't change whether he learned alot from Jordan or not. My point was its stupid for people to diminish Jordan's achievements cause he had help from Pippen and compare it to Kobe and Lebron's situation and just ignore something as significant as the fact that part of the reason Jordan's help was that good was Jordan himself.

Jordan being a terrible evaluator working in the front office is completely different from being in the trenches and actually working with someone on a day-to-day basis. No one is giving Jordan credit for drafting Pippen or something like that.

That never happened with anyone else because Pippen had alot more potential, had a stronger drive and was stronger mentally, and was overall just a much more special player then those other guys. I never said otherwise.

[97 bulls]

No, it shows that he made 3 shots (one of which was a semi-transition layup), and I doubt there was a 3-pointer on top of that. So it looks like 6 points in the 4th and maybe an assist or two. Then MJ comes in and hits 4 shots and gets two steals in the last 6:00, yet somehow it's Pippen who carried the Bulls home? Come on, now. :oldlol:

I will admit that that's probably one of the MOST offensively assertive playoff 4th quarters I've seen Pippen play. But if that's what you're holding up as a shining beacon of supposed "clutchness" and alpha dog mentality, it proves the point I and others have been making: he just wasn't THAT dude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h5tR0rQddo

Heres another vid. It shows all four of Pippens shots including the three. And i believe he mustve hit some FTs some I distinctly remember counting 11 pts. No he did score 11. The two post ups, the layup in semi-transition, the three and the midrange jumper. And i remember a few plays where i felt he shouldve went to the line.


Stop hating old school. When Jordan and the other Bulls starters came back Pippen and the reserves and already created the momentum and had the Blazers on their heels.

[97 bulls]

You're right. We don't know what he would do under different circumstances. Which also means that it really doesn't matter if Pippen could've became a great player without the help of Jordan, cause the fact remains that he did become a great player with alot of help from Jordan. Its pretty clear just from watching the two and the progression of Pippen's careers that Jordan helped Pippen alot, and even if it wasn't clear from that, its widely been documented that he did.

Either way, that wasn't my point. This isn't about Pippen's standing, which I've said multiple times doesn't change whether he learned alot from Jordan or not. My point was its stupid for people to diminish Jordan's achievements cause he had help from Pippen and compare it to Kobe and Lebron's situation and just ignore something as significant as the fact that part of the reason Jordan's help was that good was Jordan himself.

Jordan being a terrible evaluator working in the front office is completely different from being in the trenches and actually working with someone on a day-to-day basis. No one is giving Jordan credit for drafting Pippen or something like that.

That never happened with anyone else because Pippen had alot more potential, had a stronger drive and was stronger mentally, and was overall just a much more special player then those other guys. I never said otherwise.
The problem is you guys fall right into the Kobes fans hands when you start to diminish Pip. We all know Shaq and Pippen shouldnt be compared. You can win a Jordan/Bryant argument without the silly Pippen degrading. I know, i live in LA, i have a 16 year old daughter and 15 year old son and thus find myself arguing with alot of teenage kids about whos greater between the two.

Jordan did have more talent than Bryant. And more help. Thats why his teams won 72, 69, 67, games and beat two 64 win teams.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan did have more talent than Bryant. And more help. Thats why his teams won 72, 69, 67, games and beat two 64 win teams.

No he didn't - not even close for the first three-peat team as compared to any Kobe championship team, really. Second three-peat is arguable with Kobe''s non-Shaq teams, but '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 Lakers would have won 70 games annually and a three-peat as well, so...

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h5tR0rQddo

Heres another vid. It shows all four of Pippens shots including the three. And i believe he mustve hit some FTs some I distinctly remember counting 11 pts. No he did score 11. The two post ups, the layup in semi-transition, the three and the midrange jumper. And i remember a few plays where i felt he shouldve went to the line.


Stop hating old school. When Jordan and the other Bulls starters came back Pippen and the reserves and already created the momentum and had the Blazers on their heels.

That shows a 3-pointer, so okay. He had 4 baskets (9 points) in about the first 7:00 of the 4th. Then Jordan comes in with about 5:15 to go and has 5 baskets and 2 FT's (12 points) along with two steals, yet we're supposed to believe this narrative that Pippen "carried them" to a win that game? Because he played well for 60-70% of the 4th quarter (which he did)? Again, this stands:


I will admit that that's probably one of the MOST offensively assertive playoff 4th quarters I've seen Pippen play. But if that's what you're holding up as a shining beacon of supposed "clutchness" and alpha dog mentality, it proves the point I and others have been making: he just wasn't THAT dude.

[guy]

The problem is you guys fall right into the Kobes fans hands when you start to diminish Pip. We all know Shaq and Pippen shouldnt be compared. You can win a Jordan/Bryant argument without the silly Pippen degrading. I know, i live in LA, i have a 16 year old daughter and 15 year old son and thus find myself arguing with alot of teenage kids about whos greater between the two.

Jordan did have more talent than Bryant. And more help. Thats why his teams won 72, 69, 67, games and beat two 64 win teams.

If saying Pippen isn't as great as Shaq is diminishing him, then oh well.

The talent comment is complete BS. I'm not going to get into who's more talented cause thats been done to death. But your reasoning is complete BS. There's a reason why so many consider the Lakers to have underachieved in many regular seasons with Kobe.

[97 bulls]

No he didn't - not even close for the first three-peat team as compared to any Kobe championship team, really. Second three-peat is arguable with Kobe''s non-Shaq teams, but '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 Lakers would have won 70 games annually and a three-peat as well, so...
I agree. But let me ask you this. Take both jordan and bryant off their respective teams especially the second three peat who wins?

Harper
Pippen
Kukoc
Roman
Longley
Kerr
Williams
Wennington
Brown
Caffey
Buechler

Vs

Fisher
Ariza
Artest
Gasol
Bynum
Odom
Brown
Farmar
Walton
Vujacic
Powell

[97 bulls]

That shows a 3-pointer, so okay. He had 4 baskets (9 points) in about the first 7:00 of the 4th. Then Jordan comes in with about 5:15 to go and has 5 baskets and 2 FT's (12 points) along with two steals, yet we're supposed to believe this narrative that Pippen "carried them" to a win that game? Because he played well for 60-70% of the 4th quarter (which he did)? Again, this stands:
He had five baskets your missing that misrange shot he took. And like i said, jordan came back after pippen had put the blazers on their heels. The blazers were a huge front runner type team that tended to come undone when pressure arose. Pippen applied that pressure. He came up big. Something you guys claim he didnt or couldnt do. Its clear the Bulls were well on their way to a game seven. Jordan didnt have it, hell Pippen ignited Jordan.

What your doing is cimantics. Just let it go. You questioned me i produced and now youre just being silly.

[eliteballer]

97 please explain Prime Pippens subpar playoff stats from 95-98, pass given for 98 for his injuries.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No he didn't - not even close for the first three-peat team as compared to any Kobe championship team, really. Second three-peat is arguable with Kobe''s non-Shaq teams, but '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 Lakers would have won 70 games annually and a three-peat as well, so...

Kobe's '09 and '10 teams were more talented than the 3peat teams from 2000-2002. The 2001 team looked like a very well assembled team and a lot of guys were playing well(Shaq/Kobe's dominance, Fisher's hot shooting, Grant's post defense and Fox did a bit of everything). In the playoffs, obviously. They were a different team from regular season to playoffs.

'10 Lakers arguably had 4 players who were top 10 at their positions(it's not particularly easy to name 10 SF better that year than Artest even at that level, or 10 centers better than Bynum). That's not including Odom, either.

'09 Lakers were kind of like the '01 team in that they had some guys outside of their duo contributing at a high level in the playoffs, more than you'd expect from the regular season with Odom and Ariza playing so well and shooting 3s unusually well, even though Bynum was a virtual non-factor during this run.

2000 Lakers had the least overall talent of any of these Bulls/Laker teams in question, imo. AC Green's corpse was starting, 5th worst 3 point shooting team, 5th lowing scoring bench(3rd worst in FG%), and while all the 3peat teams lacked a 3rd guy near all-star level, Kobe wasn't the top 3 type player he was in '01 and '02 to fully make up for it, more around top 10 in 2000.


97 please explain Prime Pippens subpar playoff stats from 95-98, pass given for 98 for his injuries.

'96 injuries obviously affected him, especially the ankle injury, look at his numbers the first few months and then from around February through the end of the regular season and it's easy to see why he shot poorly during the playoffs.

Pippen was arguably having his best season before the ankle injury.

His '97 numbers were fine.

[97 bulls]

If saying Pippen isn't as great as Shaq is diminishing him, then oh well.

The talent comment is complete BS. I'm not going to get into who's more talented cause thats been done to death. But your reasoning is complete BS. There's a reason why so many consider the Lakers to have underachieved in many regular seasons with Kobe.
Its comlete BS? Thats what 99% of you guys argument is about. Whos done more with less. Not wanting to give kobe credit for his role in the 01-02 lakers championship. Or not sufficient credit. Cuz of that silly he wasnt the man nonsense.

Im not saying you guys diminish pippen by saying hes not as good as shaq. Hell i said in the post you responded to that shaq and pippen arent on the same level. The diminishing come when you guys act as if pippen couldnt play basketball, and had to be taught by jordan. And continue on acting as if he was some meek scared puppy that ran at the sight of his own shadow. You guys dont need to do that.

[eliteballer]

but '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 Lakers would have won 70 games annually and a three-peat as well, so...

2000 Lakers won 67 games with Shaq playing 79 and Kobe playing 66



Kobe's '09 and '10 teams were more talented than the 3peat teams from 2000-2002. The 2001 team looked like a very well assembled team and a lot of guys were playing well(Shaq/Kobe's dominance, Fisher's hot shooting, Grant's post defense and Fox did a bit of everything).

'10 Lakers arguably had 4 players who were top 10 at their positions(it's not particularly easy to name 10 SF better that year than Artest even at that level, or 10 centers better than Bynum). That's not including Odom, either.

'09 Lakers were kind of like the '01 team in that they had some guys outside of their duo contributing at a high level in the playoffs, more than you'd expect from the regular season with Odom and Ariza playing so well and shooting 3s unusually well, even though Bynum was a virtual non-factor during this run.

2000 Lakers had the least overall talent of any of these Bulls/Laker teams in question, imo. AC Green's corpse was starting, 5th worst 3 point shooting team, 5th lowing scoring bench(3rd worst in FG%), and while all the 3peat teams lacked a 3rd guy near all-star level, Kobe wasn't the top 3 type player he was in '01 and '02 to fully make up for it, more around top 10 in 2000.

2000 Lakers had a third option better than the 01 or 02 Lakers in Rice and several key roleplayers were younger(Harper Horry,Fox, Shaw).

and Bynum was walking on glass knees in both 2009 and 2010, and Kobe's knee was very bad in 2010 as well.

[eliteballer]

His '97 numbers were fine.

19 points and 4 assists on 42% shooting?


97 please explain Prime Pippens subpar playoff stats from 95-98, pass given for 98 for his injuries.

97 I'm waiting

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen being underrated by Jordan fanatics. Not surprising.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

19 points and 4 assists on 42% shooting?

19/7/4 while being the best defender on the floor is something to sneeze at now? :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

2000 Lakers had a third option better than the 01 or 02 Lakers in Rice and several key roleplayers were younger(Harper Horry,Fox, Shaw

Rice was terrible in the playoffs, never fit into the triangle, complained about his role, and was benched late in games for not moving without the ball and being a defensive liability.

He was a still about average in ability for a starting SF in 2000, but was a bad fit for the team and disappeared for much of the playoffs. Plus, while he could still shoot well, he wasn't the shooter he once was at his age after the elbow surgery in '99.

Both Fisher and Fox had much better playoff runs in '01. Horry had a better playoff run in '02 as well, and I'd say Fox did once again as well.

[97 bulls]

97 please explain Prime Pippens subpar playoff stats from 95-98, pass given for 98 for his injuries.
He was injured in 96 too. There was nothing wrong with his 97 run. Now that i think about it, he was hurt in 97 too when he landed on his already bad back after that game winning dunk vs the bullets.

[97 bulls]

I also remember him being injured during the heat series. He only played seven minutes of the last game vs the heat. And dont forget something else, from 91 to 98 Pippen played alot of basketball. I think he was just fatigued. A bunch of deepe playoff runs and two olympic runs. Just alot of pounding on his body.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I agree. But let me ask you this. Take both jordan and bryant off their respective teams especially the second three peat who wins?

Harper
Pippen
Kukoc
Roman
Longley
Kerr
Williams
Wennington
Brown
Caffey
Buechler

Vs

Fisher
Ariza
Artest
Gasol
Bynum
Odom
Brown
Farmar
Walton
Vujacic
Powell

The Lakers fairly easily win that matchup imo. They'd win 7 times out of 10. Too much offense, too big inside, plus good defense. Against the first three-peat Bulls, it's not even close.



2000 Lakers won 67 games with Shaq playing 79 and Kobe playing 66


I know. They could have possibly won 68+ games if Kobe played all 82. What I'm saying is that they DO win 70+ each year with '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 team in Kobe's place.


He was injured in 96 too. There was nothing wrong with his 97 run. Now that i think about it, he was hurt in 97 too when he landed on his already bad back after that game winning dunk vs the bullets


I also remember him being injured during the heat series.

LMAO :oldlol:

Gotta love how Pippen was somehow always hurt whenever he had poor or subpar series/postseasons ('93 playoffs where he averaged a wretched 50% TS, the entire '96-'98 postseasons, some isolated series here and there etc.). if he was really injured as frequently as these people say, then he's made of glass and we definitely should dock him for that.

PS - Let's cut the BS about injuries accounting for Pippen's inefficiency and just admit that he was NOT a great halfcourt scorer (which is what the game becomes in the playoffs). Dude only shot 45% vs. LA in the '91 Finals despite MJ being doubled/tripled and averaging under 21 ppg (compare that to MJ's 31+ ppg/56% FG against much more defensive pressure). He then shot 43% vs. Phoenix in the '93 Finals as compared to MJ's 41 ppg/51% FG (again, while seeing far less defensive pressure than MJ). Let me guess: he was injured in both of these series, too. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

The Lakers fairly easily win that matchup imo. They'd win 7 times out of 10. Too much offense, too big inside, plus good defense. Against the first three-peat Bulls, it's not even close.



I know. They could have possibly won 68+ games if Kobe played all 82. What I'm saying is that they DO win 70+ each year with '96-'98 MJ on the '00-'02 team in Kobe's place.





LMAO :oldlol:

Gotta love how Pippen was somehow always hurt whenever he had poor or subpar series/postseasons ('93 playoffs where he averaged a wretched 50% TS, the entire '96-'98 postseasons, some isolated series here and there etc.). if he was really injured as frequently as these people say, then he's made of glass and we definitely should dock him for that.

PS - Let's cut the BS about injuries accounting for Pippen's inefficiency and just admit that he was NOT a great halfcourt scorer (which is what the game becomes in the playoffs). Dude only shot 45% vs. LA in the '91 Finals despite MJ being doubled/tripled and averaging under 21 ppg (compare that to MJ's 31+ ppg/56% FG against much more defensive pressure). He then shot 43% vs. Phoenix in the '93 Finals as compared to MJ's 41 ppg/51% FG (again, while seeing far less defensive pressure than MJ). Let me guess: he was injured in both of these series, too. :oldlol:
Youre just pathetic. I know how much you love Larry Bird, go back and look at his FG% in the finals he played in. Pippens dominance goes wayyyy past his FG%. And yes. He was hurt. What about his defense? His ability to run the most dificult offense in basketball?

You know whats sad old school. Its that you were once a highly respected poster on here. Now your looked at as a joke. Your basketball knowledge goes no farther than stats

[97 bulls]

I forgot, youve gotta be kidding me if you think that laker team without kobe would beat that bulls team without Jordan. Rodman would have Gasol shooting 22 foot jumpers and Gasol on steroids couldnt hold Rodman off the boards. Whos gonna stop Pippen old ass ron artest? I forgot, ron artest was on that team it would be Ariza lol. Whos gonna stop kukoc? The bulls also have size too. They could move 6'11 Brian Williams to the four and along with 7'2 Luc Longley, 6'8 Dennis Rodman, 6'8 Pippen, and put 6'11 Toni Kukoc at PG and have him guard derrick fisher.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I forgot, youve gotta be kidding me if you think that laker team without kobe would beat that bulls team without Jordan. Rodman would have Gasol shooting 22 foot jumpers and Gasol on steroids couldnt hold Rodman off the boards. Whos gonna stop Pippen old ass ron artest? I forgot, ron artest was on that team it would be Ariza lol. Whos gonna stop kukoc? The bulls also have size too. They could move 6'11 Brian Williams to the four and along with 7'2 Luc Longley, 6'8 Dennis Rodman, 6'8 Pippen, and put 6'11 Toni Kukoc at PG and have him guard derrick fisher.

You do realize that Pippen (depending on which version of Pip we're talking about, '96-'98) was 1-3 years older than Artest was in '10, right? And no, Pippen isn't going to score well AT ALL against either '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Dude was shooting in the low-40%'s or worse in the postseasons while guarded by lesser defensive players than '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Artest has guarded and shut down FAR better scorers than '96-'98 Pippen - get real. Please. The rest of your post may or may not be addressed later, but is similarly laughable. I have stuff to do.

[97 bulls]

You do realize that Pippen (depending on which version of Pip we're talking about, '96-'98) was 1-3 years older than Artest was in '10, right? And no, Pippen isn't going to score well AT ALL against either '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Dude was shooting in the low-40%'s or worse in the postseasons while guarded by lesser defensive players than '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Artest has guarded and shut down FAR better scorers than '96-'98 Pippen - get real. Please. The rest of your post may or may not be addressed later, but is similarly laughable. I have stuff to do.
Really? Gary Payton guarded him half the series in 96, how bout Xavier Mcdaniel and Anthony Mason? Jerome Kersey? Id be willing to bet if we went back and looked, Pippen drew just as many tough defensive assignments as Jordan. That video i posted? It shows pippen scoring on double teams. Nba tv just re-aired the jordan flu game, the jjazz double Pippen alot. In fact that game clinching three that jordan hit, was from a pass from pippen who was being double teamed.

As for the rest of my post, you cant reply to it cuz you know im right.

[unbreakable]

LOL @ anyone who says pippen didnt belong on that dream team..

he LED THEM IN ASSISTS and had a better fg% than jordan :coleman:

[sick_brah07]

You do realize that Pippen (depending on which version of Pip we're talking about, '96-'98) was 1-3 years older than Artest was in '10, right? And no, Pippen isn't going to score well AT ALL against either '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Dude was shooting in the low-40%'s or worse in the postseasons while guarded by lesser defensive players than '10 Artest or '09 Ariza. Artest has guarded and shut down FAR better scorers than '96-'98 Pippen - get real. Please. The rest of your post may or may not be addressed later, but is similarly laughable. I have stuff to do.


lol what the **** is this?

pippen is the best help defender that has ever played the game, and overall the greatest defender to lace them up, please go watch some games not everything is about statistic he impacted the game differently to artest and ariza

[bwink23]

He had five baskets your missing that misrange shot he took. And like i said, jordan came back after pippen had put the blazers on their heels. The blazers were a huge front runner type team that tended to come undone when pressure arose. Pippen applied that pressure. He came up big. Something you guys claim he didnt or couldnt do. Its clear the Bulls were well on their way to a game seven. Jordan didnt have it, hell Pippen ignited Jordan.

What your doing is cimantics. Just let it go. You questioned me i produced and now youre just being silly.


You've produced a situation that has been done by NUMEROUS players that could never be a #1 franchise player.

Pippen wasn't that guy.

[unbreakable]

:roll:

LOKI would take artest and ariza over PIPPEN

:biggums: