Karl Malone vs. Moses Malone

[StateOfMind12]

Who do you guys think is the greater player of the two and who do you have ranked higher in your all-time list?

I use to say Moses Malone but after doing some research on the two of them, I'm starting to lean towards Karl Malone in this comparison.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I have Karl higher.

[blablabla]

moses easily

[MetsPackers]

Lebron James

[blacknapalm]

moses. 3rd all-time scoring. 6th all-time rebounding. 2nd all-time FT's made.

great touch around the hoop. with the added ABA talent, moses was facing some of the best at his position at the time

[StateOfMind12]

moses. 3rd all-time scoring. 6th all-time rebounding. 2nd all-time FT's made.
What is funny about this part of your post is Malone had just as good as records, if not better.

First things first, Michael Jordan is 3rd in all-time scoring but Karl Malone is 2nd in all-time scoring anyways so it doesn't even matter.

Karl Malone is 7th in all-time rebounding which is just one spot below Malone.

Karl Malone is 1st in all-time FTs made over Moses Malone at 2nd.

[blacknapalm]

What is funny about this part of your post is Malone had just as good as records, if not better.

First things first, Michael Jordan is 3rd in all-time scoring but Karl Malone is 2nd in all-time scoring anyways so it doesn't even matter.

Karl Malone is 7th in all-time rebounding which is just one spot below Malone.

Karl Malone is 1st in all-time FTs made over Moses Malone at 2nd.

that's because karl had insane longevity. he and kareem both benefit from that. that isn't to dismiss it because it's quite a feat but i'm just sayin'.

moses has a finals MVP and i feel was the better playoff performer. given the fact i think he was the better player at his peak, that's enough for me

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd probably go with Moses just because of his dominant peak in '83, the fact that it seems like he was more highly regarded and feared than Karl(though I didn't watch ball when Moses was in his prime, this seems to be the case vs how I remember Karl being viewed when I watched him), and because he was the best player in the league in '82 and '83. Granted, this was during a period when Kareem was past his prime, Magic was nowhere near his, and Bird was also not quite in his prime.

Karl's game didn't translate as well to the playoffs, imo, particularly the late 80's/early 90's version. But I did like Karl's game a lot from '94-'00. He became a very good passer, shooter and post defender, and just more polished. He probably peaked in '98 at an unusually advanced age for an NBA player of 34.

Karl was a disappointment in the playoffs. He had a great run in '92, and was solid in '00. His only 2 runs of over 1 series where he shot 50%. The 2000 run had the impressive Seattle series with the 50 point game, though Portland did contain him. I don't hold that against him though because they had a tremendous team defense which contained Shaq, KG, Kobe and Stockton as well during those same playoffs.

Then again, outside of Moses' dominant 12-1 run in the '83 playoffs and his '81 run when he got Houston to the finals(though he didn't have a good finals), he was also a disappointment in the playoffs.

1979(2 game sweep in 1st round mini-series)- Malone did have 28 points and 17 rebounds in game 1. Rudy Tomjanovich, Rick Barry and Calvin Murphy combined for just 33 points on 14/42 shooting. Which seemed to be far more of an issue for Houston. But Dan Roundfield did apparently play very well vs Moses, and had 23 points and 18 rebounds himself. But in game 2, while Moses had 21 points and 24 rebounds, he did not score in that 4th quarter and only had 8 points in the entire second half, and Houston had led by 6 at halftime and also been tied after 3 quarters. Malone shot a little under 44% in the 2 games.

1980(4 game sweep in ECSF)- Can't say he seemed to play particularly poorly in the 1980 series, but I see no mentions of Moses playing particularly well in any of the articles I read. Houston was swept by an average margin of 18.5 ppg, though.

1982(lost 2-1 in best of 3 mini-series)- In game 1, Houston led by as many as 9 in the first half and Moses had 16 points at halftime, but Houston blew that lead and lost by 15 with Moses only scoring 4 points in the second half. Houston did respond in game 2 blowing out Seattle by 21 and Moses had 28 points and 23 rebounds. In game 3, Sikma outscored Moses 30-24 and Seattle blew out Houston by 21 to clinch the series. A headline for this game was "Sikma wins battle of the big men." Moses dropped from 31 ppg on 52% shooting during the season to 24 ppg on 43% shooting in the series.

Those are his Rocket series outside of '81, which I acknowledged was impressive outside of the finals.

Not to take anything away from his '83 season, but how many other players have had casts this good? Essentially 4 all-star teammates, and he joined a team that had gone 59-23 and lost in 6 in the finals, 62-20 and lost in 7 in the ECF(to the champion Celtics) and 58-24 and lost in 6 in the finals again the 3 years before he arrived.

They had all-nba first teamer, all-star and top 5 MVP candidate in '83 Julius Erving. Another 20+ ppg scorer and all-star in Andrew Toney. Another all-star and all-defensive 1st teamer Mo Cheeks. And Bobby Jones who didn't make the all-star team that year, but had made the team in '81 and '82, and won the '83 sixth man of the year award while making the all-defensive 1st team, like Cheeks.

And with that cast, they dropped to 52-30 in '84 when Moses should've still been in his prime, and lost in the 1st round. Massive underachieving. Moses had a down year due toa nagging ankle injury, but was also called out by the Sixers owner for being out of shape and not giving as much effort.

In '85, he had that same cast, plus a rookie Charles Barkley who was already averaging 14/9 on 55% in 29 mpg on a loaded team. They went 58-24, but lost in the ECF to Boston. Normally, I'd excuse a loss to the Celtics, but Bird was injured during those playoffs, even missed a game early vs Cleveland, and was far from 100% which was brought up in the finals often. Part of what made Boston so tough was that Bird was by far the best player in the league, but he wasn't able to perform at that level vs Philly. He was a 29/11/7, 52% player during the season, yet just a 21/7/6, 40-41% player during the ECF vs Philly due to injuries. Yet Moses couldn't capitalize, and Philly still went down 3-0 and lost 4-1. Why? Well, Moses didn't step up, he shot under 50% in every game, scored 20 just twice(a high of 21) and averaged 18 ppg on 40-41%.

So I can't criticize Karl for his playoff career without bringing these things up. And I can't criticize Karl's game without bringing up Moses' flaws, and he had some key ones. For example, he was possibly the least willing passer I've seen, routinely holding the ball even when doubled, and still forcing a shot. He also didn't seem to anchor his team's defenses, his Houston teams were regularly among the worst defensively, always below average, the worst defensive team one year, and the 2nd worst at other times.

But I'll also bring up the positives I've seen from prime Moses games. He was obviously one of the great rebounders, but he also had a solid offensive game, well, solid scoring game. Good touch on the turnaround, he showed some nice footwork, had a lot of strength, quickness and aggressiveness as well.

[DStebb716]

Thy squire who hath deliver thy mail.

[magnax1]

Moses Malone very clearly. I definitely don't think you can say Moses underachieved. In his prime in the playoffs from 79-83, he averaged 26-15 on 55 TS%. He also carried his team against better competition for the majority of the 81 playoffs.
I don't think criticizing him for his failures past his prime is any more fair then criticizing Malone for Utah's loss against Dallas in 01.
Also, saying his championship team in 83 was so talented as if it's some sort of mark on his career is extremely unfair when that team is also one of the best ever. Yeah, they made the finals the year before, but the year before they did not post one of the best seasons of all time.

[MasterDurant24]

that's because karl had insane longevity. he and kareem both benefit from that. that isn't to dismiss it because it's quite a feat but i'm just sayin'.

moses has a finals MVP and i feel was the better playoff performer. given the fact i think he was the better player at his peak, that's enough for me
Umm Moses had insane longevity too. He played 19 years, over three decades, not including his two ABA years. Karl Malone just played about 100 more games and had nearly 10000 more points. Karl Malone is also the leader in defensive rebounds all-time, while I'm sure Moses is the leader in offensive.

Even still, Moses was the better player in his prime and was more dominant. You could say he was the best player of the early 80's and was the best player on a title team. I say Moses is better.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses Malone very clearly. I definitely don't think you can say Moses underachieved. In his prime in the playoffs from 79-83, he averaged 26-15 on 55 TS%. He also carried his team against better competition for the majority of the 81 playoffs.
I don't think criticizing him for his failures past his prime is any more fair then criticizing Malone for Utah's loss against Dallas in 01.
Also, saying his championship team in 83 was so talented as if it's some sort of mark on his career is extremely unfair when that team is also one of the best ever. Yeah, they made the finals the year before, but the year before they did not post one of the best seasons of all time.

Would you say Moses was past his prime in '84 and '85? He was only between ages 28-30 then.

And I somewhat agree with your other point, I don't want to take away from his '83 season because of his level of play plus the 65-17 season and 12-1 playoffs. But I'm just pointing out, how many players in their primes join teams that are already finals teams and 55-60+ win teams? Or anywhere near that?

[Shepseskaf]

Karl doesn't get those stats without Stockton. Moses was simply a better player.

[Pushxx]

Moses by sliver.

[t-rex]

Moses Malone. Not close.

Karl Malone might be among the most overrated great players in NBA history. Stats don't tell you everything.

[StateOfMind12]

Moses Malone. Not close.

Karl Malone might be among the most overrated great players in NBA history.Explain, because I don't agree at all. It's like a trend to say Karl Malone was overrated and have nothing to back it up with.


Karl doesn't get those stats without Stockton.
That's not true at all.

[Shepseskaf]

That's not true at all.
You're not very smart at all. Its obvious that playing with a top 5 all-time point guard inflated Karl's numbers.

His stats would have been decent without Stockton, but not as gaudy as they are.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Malone is better

[magnax1]

Would you say Moses was past his prime in '84 and '85? He was only between ages 28-30 then.
He definitely didn't play like he was in his prime, and he never recovered back to his previous form.


And I somewhat agree with your other point, I don't want to take away from his '83 season because of his level of play plus the 65-17 season and 12-1 playoffs. But I'm just pointing out, how many players in their primes join teams that are already finals teams and 55-60+ win teams? Or anywhere near that?
It's true, but it's not like there is any situation to compare it too. You can't say he underachieved given the situation.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He definitely didn't play like he was in his prime, and he never recovered back to his previous form.

Maybe not in '84, but he seemed to return to form in '85.



It's true, but it's not like there is any situation to compare it too. You can't say he underachieved given the situation.

Well, I think his team greatly underachieved in '84, and to a lesser extent '85. I wouldn't say any of his Houston teams underachieved, but I do think that Moses generally performed below his standards in the playoffs when he was a Rocket outside of '81.


Karl doesn't get those stats without Stockton

I agree, we don't have much of a sample size, but here's '97-'98 when he played 18 games without Stockton.

1998 w/o Stockton- 24.9 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.6 TO, 1.1 spg, 52.3 FG%, 36.6 mpg
1998 w/ Stockton- 27.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4 apg, 2.9 TO, 1.2 spg, 53.2 FG%, 37.6 mpg

This is also when Malone was at his peak, and Stockton was past his prime and a 30 mpg player. Yet we still see a 3 ppg decrease, a huge difference in assist/turnover ratio and a slight decline in FG% without Stockton.

I'd bet it'd be even greater in the late 80's/early 90's when Stockton had a much greater ability to penetrate, the game was faster so Malone could be set up for more easy baskets since he was such a great running big man, and Stockton was playing big minutes.

This stat is somewhat deceptive, but Malone was assisted on a shockingly high amount of baskets in the 3 Utah years we have these numbers available.

2001- Assisted on 82.2% of his field goals
2002- Assisted on 79.2% of his field goals
2003- Assisted on 81% of his field goals

The number is misleading because he shouldn't be penalized for having the skill to knock down mid-range jumpers, or on baskets where he happens to get good position and make a quick post move, those things require skill on Karl's shot and aren't things he couldn't do consistently without Stockton.

But 80% is an unusually high number, and this is with Stockton only playing 29, 31 and 28 mpg in these 3 seasons.

[Snoop_Cat]

I have Moses slightly above Karl. How can anyone say Moses is clearly better than Karl when they both had their fair amount of shortcomings, especially those who are probably just parroting the people with genuine reasons.

First off, Karl Malone was an amazing player in his own right apart from Stockton, though it's undeniable that Stockton obviously helped. \ Longevity will only get you so far, you need to have skills and the work ethic to be 2nd on the all time scoring list. He averaged 20+ for 15 straight seasons. That is AMAZING. It is insanely difficult to average 20+ while excelling at other facets for one season in the NBA, Malone did it for 15.

It's too bad that he constantly underachieved in the playoffs and that is really what defines Moses above Karl but as far as the broad range of skills go, Karl was better than Moses in many more regards than Moses to Karl. However, let's not pretend that Moses was some guy who dominated the playoffs yearly because that is far form the truth. Karl Malone honestly gets discredited so often for failing to win a title that he's almost underrated in that regard.

I know stats don't tell everything but Moses was a guy who shot under 50% for a dominant center. There's a reason he shot under 50%, it's because he forced it up all the damn time and his post arsenal was relatively unrefined in comparison to the centers that would arrive in a few years. In addition, he was the same guy who would throw it off the backboard to get rebounds to stat pad and as ShaqAttack noted, was a total black hole on offense at many times.

In the end, if I were drafting between the two, I'd take Moses but let's not pretend that there's some significant gap between the two.

[StateOfMind12]

You're not very smart at all. Its obvious that playing with a top 5 all-time point guard inflated Karl's numbers.

His stats would have been decent without Stockton, but not as gaudy as they are.Obviously playing with a great PG helps your stats but lets not act like Malone wouldn't have been able to put up big numbers specifically scoring numbers without him. I probably jumped the gun when I read your post because you didn't specifically state that but most people act as if Malone was nothing more than a product of Stockton which is completely false.

I'm more than positive Moses relied on his athleticism more than Karl did hence why Karl was able to play for such a long period of time whereas Moses eventually hit a well as his athleticism started to slowly decline.

[jlauber]

Moses was the most feared player in the league from '79 thru '85. And, he just ABUSED EVERYONE of his PEERS in his H2H's, including Kareem (even in Kareem's '80 MVP season, when he battered him by a 30-20 ppg margin in their H2H's.)


How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 84-85 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in those five years, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 84-85 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)
Continued...

[magnax1]

Maybe not in '84, but he seemed to return to form in '85.
I haven't watched those games in quite a while, but I never noticed him really making a big improvement. His stats look very similar both years. He scored a tiny bit more, rebounded a tiny bit less and did most other things about the same.




Well, I think his team greatly underachieved in '84, and to a lesser extent '85. I wouldn't say any of his Houston teams underachieved, but I do think that Moses generally performed below his standards in the playoffs when he was a Rocket outside of '81.
I don't know. I'm not really going to judge a team or a guy off of one 3 or 5 game series. Moses beat LA in 81, but in a 7 game series, he probably doesn't. He definitely seemed fine in 80 to me, and I don't think I've ever watched his 82 series.
That 5 game series they lost wasn't exactly against a weak team either, and the Nets didn't have Michael Ray who was arguable their best player when healthy/not on drugs for a lot of the season. I wouldn't really call it a huge upset, especially when it's only 5 games.

It doesn't surprise me at all as a Jazz fan that Malone was assisted on 80% of his buckets. That's just who he was, and that's why they struggled in the close playoff games for years. I do think under a different system he would've been assisted a bit less though. Boozer went from being assisted on 73 to 66% of his shots when going from Utah to Chicago, and Sloan still played a very similar offense in comparison to his late 90's sets in 2010, which was always high in team APG. I also agree that he was heavily reliant on the team, Stockton in particular, in the early 90's and late 80's. Even as an isolation scorer, he often times had to be have a play run for him to get to his spot because he couldn't do it himself.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I haven't watched those games in quite a while, but I never noticed him really making a big improvement. His stats look very similar both years. He scored a tiny bit more, rebounded a tiny bit less and did most other things about the same.

It seemed to be the consensus that Moses had a much better '85 than '84. Stats weren't that different as you said, a slight improvement from 23/13 on 48% and 75 FT% 25/13 on 47% and 82 FT%. But he also went from all-nba 2nd team and 10th in MVP voting to all-nba 1st team and 3rd in MVP voting.


I don't know. I'm not really going to judge a team or a guy off of one 3 or 5 game series. Moses beat LA in 81, but in a 7 game series, he probably doesn't. He definitely seemed fine in 80 to me, and I don't think I've ever watched his 82 series.

I agree that the 3 game mini-series are tough, I think it was a stupid format honestly. But you can't credit him for beating LA in a best of 3 mini-series and then ignore his failures in best of 3 series such as '82. And the LA loss had a lot to do with Magic having arguably the worst series of his career shooting 39% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem.


That 5 game series they lost wasn't exactly against a weak team either, and the Nets didn't have Michael Ray who was arguable their best player when healthy/not on drugs for a lot of the season. I wouldn't really call it a huge upset, especially when it's only 5 games.

That's a flat out huge upset to me, and inexcusable as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't define him, or take away from what he did accomplish. But he had a loaded team and finished the season with not nearly enough wins for that much talent, and a team with that much talent that obviously fit together as evidenced by '83 should at the very least contend, but in reality they should win it all. They had more talent than Boston, imo, and at least a comparable amount to LA, you can debate who had more between them.


It doesn't surprise me at all as a Jazz fan that Malone was assisted on 80% of his buckets. That's just who he was, and that's why they struggled in the close playoff games for years. I do think under a different system he would've been assisted a bit less though. Boozer went from being assisted on 73 to 66% of his shots when going from Utah to Chicago, and Sloan still played a very similar offense in comparison to his late 90's sets in 2010, which was always high in team APG. I also agree that he was heavily reliant on the team, Stockton in particular, in the early 90's and late 80's. Even as an isolation scorer, he often times had to be have a play run for him to get to his spot because he couldn't do it himself.

The flex offense was ideal for Malone because there was great movement and a lot of screening, ideal for a player like Malone who always excelled at moving without the ball for a big man, setting screens and getting position.

[Round Mound]

Karl Malone was Better. More Complete Player

[jlauber]

While K. Malone certainly had a long and productive NBA career, I don't think he was ever FEARED as much as Moses was in the late 70's and early 80's. The NBA had no answer for a PEAK Moses. He was putting up 31-15 seasons, and winning rebound titles by FIVE per game. All of which is amazing when you consider that Moses was only 6-10 and 245 lbs. But, he was a tenacious and relentless player who just wore out his peers.

Kareem is the best example. Moses faced a Kareem that some regard was near his prime (in his late 20's thru his early 30's), and just dominated him. And the bigger the game, the more dominant he was. Personally, I consider Kareem's PEAK from his 2nd thru 5th years ('71 thru '74), so we will never know how a PEAK Moses would have fared against a PEAK Kareem, but the Kareem that Moses did play against was generally badly outplayed.

Based on sheer domination, I have moved Moses into my 10th spot all-time. Aside from Wilt and Shaq, no other center more thoroughly dominated their peers, like Moses did to his.

[G.O.A.T]

There are a lot of different ways to get to the same place.

For evidence of this oft-stated maxim look no further than the professional basketball careers of Moses and Karl Malone. When all was said an done...

Karl: 19 seasons, 1500 games, 36, 000 points, 15,000 rebounds, 3,000 combined blocks and steals, 14 all-nba selections, multiple all-defensive selections and two MVP's.

Moses: 21 seasons, 1500 games, 30,000 points, 18,000 rebounds, 3,000 combined blocks and steals, 8 all-nba selections, multiple all-defensive selections and three MVP's.

The similarities end with the last name and the numbers. The difference are a fascinating study in career evaluation and ultimately ranking.

Geography/Jet-setting: Moses Malone played in as many different leagues and Karl Malone did cities in their NBA careers. Moses played for 10 teams and his rights were owned by 11 different clubs. His longest stop was in Houston where he played nearly six full seasons as a Rocket. Karl spent his first 18 seasons with the Jazz and his final year chasing a ring in LA.

The Long & The Short of it: In this case that is referring to their respective primes and the differing declines that brought them to the end of those best years. For Karl Malone his prime started in 1987-88, his third season and ran uninterrupted through the nineties and beyond. For almost 15 years Malone gave the Jazz a nearly automatic 25-30 points and 10-12 rebounds. Now his game evolved and changed over time both out of intent and necessity, but he was always the same fast break outside lane running freight train with a propensity to pick and pop 16 footers until the proverbial cows came home all the while kicking the shins of those who dared defend the potential Stockton assist. The overall point is that the Mailman was remarkably consistent and always very good if not great as often as some would have expected/liked. Moses Malone on the other hand is almost like three different players careers in one. First the young Moses, ABA Moses I'll call him. Raw, explosive energy, a hallmark of his prime, was his only means of effecting games early on. He was not physically or mentally ready for the pros, nor were they really ready for him, but he was far too intriguing a prospect to ignore. By 1978, four years into what would eventually be more than a score long career, it clicked. Moses was a terrorizing force on the inside with the size and strength of a center, the energy and explosiveness of a forward or the tenacity of a rabid badger. Moses book-ended his five year absolute prime with MVP seasons in 1979 and 1983. He averaged 27 points, 15 rebounds, never shot below 50% from the field and missed just seven games in total. After the 1983 season, though he did have two more all-NBA seasons where he led the league in rebounding, Moses (then just 28) never averaged as many as 25 ppg again, never shot 50% from the field again, never averaged more than 5 orpg (he never averaged less than 6 during the previous seven years) and though he had few major injuries until the twilight of his career, the nagging injuries began to linger for longer.

So what happened?...I'll tell you.

In my opinion the problems started before the Sixers and Malone even played a game in the 1983-84 season. Philadelphia had been promising it's fans a title since the collapse in 1977 which saw a 2-0 finals lead evaporate against the surging Portland Trailblazers. Now with the arrival of Moses, a title had been delivered. However Malone and his $2 million a year salary showed up out of shape to start the next season. This rubbed owner Harold Katz the wrong way as he was already reticent about paying his second superstar so much money. To further add to his ire, by March the Celtics were running away with the division and Malone, who had injured his ankle badly in January felt Katz wrath in the public. Katz criticized Malone in the papers for being out of shape, not being worth his salary and not allowing the Philadelphia medical staff to tend to his injury. Katz said Malone would not tell anyone how he was feeling, but observed "He doesn't seem able to make a power move. He doesn't seem to have the quick first step."

Malone's injuries, without proper treatment, persisted throughout the season. He along with teammates Mo Cheeks, Julius Erving, Clint Richardson and Andrew Toney were all playing hurt when the playoffs started. The result was a first round exit for the defending champs at the hands of the New Jersey Nets. Moses started the 1984-85 season healthy, but again injuries set in. Late in the year he had another ankle injury. The team and he never seemed to recover as only rookie Charles Barkley was consistently healthy. Moses had a second consecutive disappointing playoffs and rather he and we knew it or not, his best days were officially behind him.

So one Malone has a 1near 15 year prime and the other just five. Still that prime was essentially a 5-year peak. Only the likes of Jordan, Russell, Bird, Wilt, Kareem etc. have ever been among the games 2 or 3 best players and arguably the best for that long. I don't think Karl Malone was ever the leagues best player nor did he ever have the best season. He was deserving of his MVP's and his longevity gives him the nod ahead of guys who were probably better at their peak like Barkley, Robinson, Rick Barry, Dirk etc. It is for these reasons that I take Moses, the 12th greatest player all-time over Karl, somewhere in the high-teens or low-mid twenties.

[jlauber]

There are a lot of different ways to get to the same place.

For evidence of this oft-stated maxim look no further than the professional basketball careers of Moses and Karl Malone. When all was said an done...

Karl: 19 seasons, 1500 games, 36, 000 points, 15,000 rebounds, 3,000 combined blocks and steals, 14 all-nba selections, multiple all-defensive selections and two MVP's.

Moses: 21 seasons, 1500 games, 30,000 points, 18,000 rebounds, 3,000 combined blocks and steals, 8 all-nba selections, multiple all-defensive selections and three MVP's.

The similarities end with the last name and the numbers. The difference are a fascinating study in career evaluation and ultimately ranking.

Geography/Jet-setting: Moses Malone played in as many different leagues and Karl Malone did cities in their NBA careers. Moses played for 10 teams and his rights were owned by 11 different clubs. His longest stop was in Houston where he played nearly six full seasons as a Rocket. Karl spent his first 18 seasons with the Jazz and his final year chasing a ring in LA.

The Long & The Short of it: In this case that is referring to their respective primes and the differing declines that brought them to the end of those best years. For Karl Malone his prime started in 1987-88, his third season and ran uninterrupted through the nineties and beyond. For almost 15 years Malone gave the Jazz a nearly automatic 25-30 points and 10-12 rebounds. Now his game evolved and changed over time both out of intent and necessity, but he was always the same fast break outside lane running freight train with a propensity to pick and pop 16 footers until the proverbial cows came home all the while kicking the shins of those who dared defend the potential Stockton assist. The overall point is that the Mailman was remarkably consistent and always very good if not great as often as some would have expected/liked. Moses Malone on the other hand is almost like three different players careers in one. First the young Moses, ABA Moses I'll call him. Raw, explosive energy, a hallmark of his prime, was his only means of effecting games early on. He was not physically or mentally ready for the pros, nor were they really ready for him, but he was far too intriguing a prospect to ignore. By 1978, four years into what would eventually be more than a score long career, it clicked. Moses was a terrorizing force on the inside with the size and strength of a center, the energy and explosiveness of a forward or the tenacity of a rabid badger. Moses book-ended his five year absolute prime with MVP seasons in 1979 and 1983. He averaged 27 points, 15 rebounds, never shot below 50% from the field and missed just seven games in total. After the 1983 season, though he did have two more all-NBA seasons where he led the league in rebounding, Moses (then just 28) never averaged as many as 25 ppg again, never shot 50% from the field again, never averaged more than 5 orpg (he never averaged less than 6 during the previous seven years) and though he had few major injuries until the twilight of his career, the nagging injuries began to linger for longer.

So what happened?...I'll tell you.

In my opinion the problems started before the Sixers and Malone even played a game in the 1983-84 season. Philadelphia had been promising it's fans a title since the collapse in 1977 which saw a 2-0 finals lead evaporate against the surging Portland Trailblazers. Now with the arrival of Moses, a title had been delivered. However Malone and his $2 million a year salary showed up out of shape to start the next season. This rubbed owner Harold Katz the wrong way as he was already reticent about paying his second superstar so much money. To further add to his ire, by March the Celtics were running away with the division and Malone, who had injured his ankle badly in January felt Katz wrath in the public. Katz criticized Malone in the papers for being out of shape, not being worth his salary and not allowing the Philadelphia medical staff to tend to his injury. Katz said Malone would not tell anyone how he was feeling, but observed "He doesn't seem able to make a power move. He doesn't seem to have the quick first step."

Malone's injuries, without proper treatment, persisted throughout the season. He along with teammates Mo Cheeks, Julius Erving, Clint Richardson and Andrew Toney were all playing hurt when the playoffs started. The result was a first round exit for the defending champs at the hands of the New Jersey Nets. Moses started the 1984-85 season healthy, but again injuries set in. Late in the year he had another ankle injury. The team and he never seemed to recover as only rookie Charles Barkley was consistently healthy. Moses had a second consecutive disappointing playoffs and rather he and we knew it or not, his best days were officially behind him.

So one Malone has a 1near 15 year prime and the other just five. Still that prime was essentially a 5-year peak. Only the likes of Jordan, Russell, Bird, Wilt, Kareem etc. have ever been among the games 2 or 3 best players and arguably the best for that long. I don't think Karl Malone was ever the leagues best player nor did he ever have the best season. He was deserving of his MVP's and his longevity gives him the nod ahead of guys who were probably better at their peak like Barkley, Robinson, Rick Barry, Dirk etc. It is for these reasons that I take Moses, the 12th greatest player all-time over Karl, somewhere in the high-teens or low-mid twenties.

Good post.

Personally, I have Moses at #10, and just ahead of Hakeem. Hakeem does have a 2-1 edge in rings and FMVP, but Moses has a solid 3-1 margin in MVP's, and was more dominant statitsically and against his peers. I wouldn't argue with those that put Hakeem over him, but the fact was, Moses just dominated his peers from '79 thru '85 on a level that only Wilt and Shaq could claim.

[JellyBean]

I would pick Moses as the greater of the two without any second thoughts. It probably goes back to the generational thing. I grew up in the late 1970s, so I saw both players play in their primes and Moses had that IT factor. He could turn and face you up or back you down. He could crush you on the glass on both sides of the floor. He was a work horse! And people over look his ABA days. I swear, Moses is so criminally underrated by NBA fans these days it is a shame. But I would pick Moses "Chairmen of the Boards" Malone higher than Karl.

[Punpun]

They are brothers anyways. Not like it matters.

[WockaVodka]

Was Moses really better than Karl at anything other than rebounding?

[305Baller]

I'd go with Moses.... much more of an epic name... Karl sounds like a porno actor.

[Odinn]

Was Moses really better than Karl at anything other than rebounding?
Was Karl really better than Moses at anything other than throwing elbows?

[WockaVodka]

Was Karl really better than Moses at anything other than throwing elbows?
Scoring, passing, defense, etc. I'm more than positive Karl was more efficient too and even without Stockton I think Karl would still have been more efficient than Moses was.

[Shep]

karl malone easily

how many players can you say won an mvp award in a season in which wasn't in their best 8?

[D.J.]

Karl has the edge in longevity, but Moses was simply more dominant at peak. He put up 31/15 at his best. Moses also won a ring as the #1 option and has 3 MVPs to Karl's 2. Not to mention Moses has a Finals MVP. Moses > Karl.

[Bigsmoke]

Moses

[miles berg]

Moses was better, easily the most underrated player in NBA history.