did lebron choke last year or is the mavs d> thunder

[inclinerator]

crazy to think if he played like this against mavs, heat would have been the reigning champions

he didnt even have his jumper like in the mavs series

[Foster5k]

2011 Mavericks defense was on another level. Guys like Shawn Marion, Stevenson, Tyson Chandler, etc.

2011 Mavericks would wipe the floor with the Heat or Thunder.

[inclinerator]

i dont think so, i think lebron just choked, he looked noticeable slower last year and settled for jumpers, didnt move
and 2011 mavs would not beat this thunder

[SCdac]

both... Marion got into his head, and Stevenson and Bron have history, and then there's Tyson defending the basket... but more of a choke job than anything. Lebron didn't just play below average, he didn't even show up pretty much. And that's after the Heat were up 2-1. Lebron looked anemic in some games, that's not just good D imo.

[Indian guy]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

[Rekindled]

scotty brooks keeps playing ibaka and perk together, which causes ibaka to guard battier on the three point line. now Lebron can just drive to the basket with no backline defense.

[Mach_3]

scotty brooks keeps playing ibaka and perk together, which causes ibaka to guard battier on the three point line. now Lebron can just drive to the basket with no backline defense.

Partly this. He should start Collison honestly

[Cone]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

Dumb post. Dallas defense affected LeBron, so now that series doesnt count? :oldlol:

LeBron tried, and he tried hard.

Way to discredit the Mavs. :applause:

[LamarOdom]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

:facepalm

[TropicalDrini]

he wasn't shooting in that series. averaging like 15 shots per game.
mavs d was nice but lebron stopped himself last year.

[jlip]

he wasn't shooting in that series. averaging like 15 shots per game.
mavs d was nice but lebron stopped himself last year.

This. He was avg. ~19 field goal attempts prior to the Finals.

Not just that. He was so passive that he didn't even try to get to the line. He was avg. ~9 free throw attempts in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. In the Finals he avg. only 3 attempts. Whatever was going on in his head played significantly better defense on him than anything Shawn Marion was doing.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

You don't need to erase it from your memory. It happened. The city of Dallas had a parade as a result of it and Mark Cuban bought each member of the team a $250,000 ring for the hard work that was put in. Your jealousy will never take what the Mavericks earned last year.

[tmacattack33]

Miami and Lebron and Wade know this year that Lebron is unquestionably Batman and Wade is Robin and they know that it should be like that in every game unless Wade is in that the zone and is just on fire like he was in that one Indiana game.

Last year, it was more of a 1a and 1b thing.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.
:roll:
well, the rest of the world does.

[Nash]

I think it was mostly the zone defense and the fact that Miami had no answer to it whatsoever. It chocked them and they didn't face it until the finals.

[JellyBean]

I just think that it was the Mavs defense that played a huge factor in that matchup, not Lebron choking.

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron almost looked game 5 vs Boston in 2010 bad. Just going through the motions, his head not really in the game. I'm not sure what his motive was for not trying in the NBA FINALS, that is almost what it looked like. Maybe he thought losing would get Spo fired, or he thought losing would get Wade to accept the Robin role, or maybe he just choked.

I'm not trying to take any thing away from the Mavs though, they deserved to win that series, and they played way beyond what they had on paper.

[imdaman99]

all the games were pretty close outside of game 1. this year, hes played with the lead in both games, and sometimes 10+ pt lead

[D.J.]

Combination of both, but LeBron was flat out terrible. He plays anything close to his normal self, Miami wins easily.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

epic choke.
much like '06-'07

[gilalizard]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

History does.

[gilalizard]

all the games were pretty close outside of game 1. this year, hes played with the lead in both games, and sometimes 10+ pt lead

I won't say for sure, but LeBron may well fade if the Thunder get big leads in the 2nd half.

It happened in game 1 when the Thunder got up in 4th. LeBron disappeared.

LeBron is something of a frontrunner, playing best with a big lead, or when the refs are thwarting the opponent's comeback attempts (game 2).

If LeBron is held to the same standard as even other superstars (and not granted his own special superDUPERstar status) and the other team maintains a lead, I can well imagine him pulling another disappearing act.

Remember, his best game of the postseason also came when his opponent collectively had one of their worst post-season games ever.

[talkingconch]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/bozman007/Message%20Board%20Graphics/ShockedMuppet.gif

[tpols]

"Doesnt count".:oldlol:

[BigTicket]

Lebron choked hard in that series.

Sure the Mavs did a good job, but mostly Lebron just sucked.

[StateOfMind12]

Combination of both but I think mainly because it was the first time he was the 2nd option and he had no idea how to play like one, or at least an effective 2nd option. I think that is exactly why Wade just accepted the 2nd option this season because he realizes that LeBron has no clue how to play as one but Wade himself does since he has done it in the past with Shaq.

The zone and doubles the Mavericks showed LeBron confused LeBron pretty bad and LeBron was incredibly passive even when he wasn't seeing doubles/triples so that is exactly why I do feel like it was a combination of both but also the fact that he was the 2nd option for the first time and at the worst time.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.


worst poster on the site.

[Mr Exlax]

i think that it was the defense and then his brain took over. They would double him as soon as he got the ball one play, then the next possession they would shadow him, then they would play him straight up. I think it might've overloaded him. The whole 4th quarter thing is not the issue. If they would've played him the same way from the start of the game then Spolestra and Lebron would've had time to adjust. Doing it in the 4th just caught them totally off gaurd.

[Heavincent]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

What, do you only count the series that Lebron plays well in?

You're such a moron :oldlol:

[Meticode]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/bozman007/Message%20Board%20Graphics/ShockedMuppet.gif
:roll:

[longtime lurker]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

You're an embarrassment :facepalm

[LA_Showtime]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

That's not what you said last year. I'm pretty sure you blamed his lack of athleticism for his inability to generate good shots.

[Indian guy]

That's not what you said last year. I'm pretty sure you blamed his lack of athleticism for his inability to generate good shots.

Never said that. His mediocre athleticism prevents him from being a top 3 player in the league. Why he often disappears for long stretches of games. Why he can never take over a game. But he's still good enough to put up 25/7/5/45% in a series if he simply tries. Especially last year's version, who was a very good shooter. But for whatever reason, be it fear, fatigue or whatever, LeBron just wasn't very interested in trying against Dallas. They were a good defensive team, no doubt, but it's hard to give them any credit when LeBron wasn't even bothering to shoot the ball.

[LA_Showtime]

Never said that. His mediocre athleticism prevents him from being a top 3 player in the league. Why he often disappears for long stretches of games. Why he can never take over a game. But he's still good enough to put up 25/7/5/45% in a series if he simply tries. Especially last year's version, who was a very good shooter. But for whatever reason, be it fear, fatigue or whatever, LeBron just wasn't very interested in trying against Dallas. They were a good defensive team, no doubt, but it's hard to give them any credit when LeBron wasn't even bothering to shoot the ball.

I think the dude just gets nervous. Look at how often he screws around with his arm band. That's a clear sign of anxiousness. :oldlol:

[pmj]

Never said that. His mediocre athleticism prevents him from being a top 3 player in the league. Why he often disappears for long stretches of games. Why he can never take over a game. But he's still good enough to put up 25/7/5/45% in a series if he simply tries. Especially last year's version, who was a very good shooter. But for whatever reason, be it fear, fatigue or whatever, LeBron just wasn't very interested in trying against Dallas. They were a good defensive team, no doubt, but it's hard to give them any credit when LeBron wasn't even bothering to shoot the ball.

Personally, I think it was a little bit Dallas D, a little of a terrible Spo offense, a little fear of failure, and a little of not wanting to screw it up.

Last year was his first year where his athleticism came down to earth a bit (partially due to his weight imo), and Wade was having a great series. He couldn't straight blow by people in the half court, and even if he did Chandler's right behind them, or someone drawing a charge. So he went full defer mode. People act like he straight sucked but his percentages were still high, he just wasn't trying like you said. The only stats off were points and attempts.

The Heat's offense absolutely did him no favors, they should have seen him struggling (and he struggled vs. Dallas in the regular season too), but they didn't even have him do some back cuts and such till Game 5. Frankly the Heat offense sucked all year in the 4th, hero ball just worked against Boston and Chicago, and then sucked again against Dallas, which is why I give Spo a lot of blame.

This year his athleticism I feel is slightly better again, but I feel what he's really improved on is moving off the ball and finding ways to get points. He's opportunistic and has much better touch in the paint as well.

[DStebb716]

Well considering Jason Kidd was covering LeBron at times... I think he choked.

[L8k3r5]

2011 Mavericks defense was on another level. Guys like Shawn Marion, Stevenson, Tyson Chandler, etc.

2011 Mavericks would wipe the floor with the Heat or Thunder.
:durantunimpressed: Really?

[R.I.P.]

4th quarter execution.

Durant, Harden and Westbrook are no Dirk, JET and Kidd yet.

[jrong]

I don't know, but as well as James is playing this postseason, it just makes me madder about what happened last year. He had to be the undisputed #1 in order to perform? He couldn't have provided just a little more playing as #1b/#2 for just one solitary series? We didn't need 30 ppg from him in the Finals last year-- 20 ppg would've done it.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Dallas' D was better than OKC, but LeBron didn't even try against them. I don't even count that series.

:wtf: :facepalm

[imdaman99]

perkins aint no chandler. as a matter of fact, perkins + ibaka combined arent even close to defensive IQ as tyson chandler. when they run a pick with perkins man, there is no answer. they couldnt run that against tyson chandler thats for sure.

[inclinerator]

perkins aint no chandler. as a matter of fact, perkins + ibaka combined arent even close to defensive IQ as tyson chandler. when they run a pick with perkins man, there is no answer. they couldnt run that against tyson chandler thats for sure.
well chandler was a knick this year and lebron done well against them

[comerb]

he choked

[guy]

If it was purely just Dallas' defense, then Dallas' defense was GOAT. That has to be the only reason someone as great as Lebron could be held down 10 ppg below his average if he was actually trying. Thats why I think its kinda hard to attribute it to their defense. He just flat out choked.

[spacebump]

:durantunimpressed: Really?

really

[konex]

Of course Mavs D was better. Bron is barely taking jumpshots this series and OKC is allowing him to beat them that way. Bron is averaging 30 but he's made maybe 3 jumpers in 3 games!!! Spurs would never have allowed this...

[jrong]

The biggest difference is where he's getting the ball. He still gets criticized for lacking a low post game, but it's irrelevant now because he's catching it mid-post or high-post. And for this, I begrudgingly credit Spo. It's the biggest offensive adjustment the Heat have made. LeBron in the mid-post/ high-post is unguardable one-on-one. He can simply bulldog his way to the basket, and since he's in tighter, the bigs can't collapse in time

Making this adjustment has rendered Bron's lack of low-post moves and erratic jumpshot unimportant, where previously they were his postseason Achilles. But, it still doesn't explain why teams aren't running doubles whenever he receives the ball in one of those spots (Boston's strategy of instead constantly doubling Wade especially made no sense). As an opposing coach, I'd rather take my chances with the Heat shooters than James deep in the lane. And if the ball swings around to Wade than everybody still has time to rotate back.

[spacebump]

Last years Mavs had Tyson Chandler, Marion, D Steve, and at points Kidd playing great defense. This years Thunder has Ibaka and Perkins on the bench during the more important parts of the game. (Sefolosha has done better than I expected and is probably the best defender on OKC)

If you think this year's Thunder's D even approaches last year's Mavs D you either don't understand how to watch for defense or value blocks way too much.


Notice LeBron's shots this year are on taken average much closer to the rim. This is due to lack of Tyson Chandler.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Last two games, Miami is running layup drills.
OKC better shut down the paint, or this series will be over in 2 games.

[TryToBeUnbias]

Dirk = Unconcious

[KevinNYC]

i dont think so, i think lebron just choked, he looked noticeable slower last year and settled for jumpers, didnt move
and 2011 mavs would not beat this thunder


he wasn't shooting in that series. averaging like 15 shots per game.
mavs d was nice but lebron stopped himself last year.

Lebron got frustrated because the Mavs D was shutting him down and taking away his first options. The game wasn't coming easy to him and you could see it on his face. The D came first and frustrated him. His reaction to that frustration came after they shut off the easy parts of his game.

Here's what I just posted in the Skip Bayless Mark Cuban thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyO
This guy sat there and said that the Mavs defense was completely responsible for stopping Lebron in 4th qtrs of that series. That is right to an extend but are you telling me a 6'8 260lb 3 time MVP skilled freak of nature was completely shut down in the 4th by a weak Mavs D? Cmon. Lebron clearly fell to the pressure (which Cuban believes doesn't effect player because I guess their not humans).


There's the problem with your argument. You really don't understand how good the 2011 Dallas defense was and in particular how well their zone matched up against Miami. They were the 8th ranked defense in the league and given a 7 game series, they are able to continually adjust their defense to get even better. They also didn't foul much, they were 3rd in league in free throws per shots attempted.

Dallas played a great team defense and they had a legitimate defensive presence at the rim with Tyson Chandler. They had athletes like Shawn Marion and Deshawn Stevenson and even Jason Kidd with the height to give some trouble to Lebron. They also use a great scheme to hide their weaker defender's, so guys like Dirk can avoid foul trouble and they weren't predictable as a defense. They would switch from man to man to 2-3 so often the offense couldn't get used to it. They also have fantastic coaches. Carlisle and defensive assistant Dwanye Casey created very tricky and deceptive defensive scheme that relied on switching often.

Quote:
In an 86-83 Dallas victory in Game 4, however, the Mavs resorted to a more loosely called zone. Instead of predetermining its use, they called it in "flow," much like their less-structured offensive scheme.
That makes it more difficult for the Heat to figure out.
"Our zone is good when we do it in flow. When we set up like that, they're too talented," said Dallas guard DeShawn Stevenson, one of the team's best defenders. "We got into zone off of flow. When they're bringing the ball down, they don't have time to set up their offense."

Heres some quotes I found when googling "2011 mavericks defense."

Quote:
In an 86-83 Dallas victory in Game 4, however, the Mavs resorted to a more loosely called zone. Instead of predetermining its use, they called it in "flow," much like their less-structured offensive scheme.
That makes it more difficult for the Heat to figure out.
"Our zone is good when we do it in flow. When we set up like that, they're too talented," said Dallas guard DeShawn Stevenson, one of the team's best defenders. "We got into zone off of flow. When they're bringing the ball down, they don't have time to set up their offense."

Quote:
Once Dallas is in the half-court defensively, they rely on a rotation-based man to man defense with doses of their 2-3 zone sprinkled in. While the 2-3 look is the base, it essentially morphs into a match-up zone due to the NBA defensive 3-second rules. They rarely use it for an extended period of time and tend to employ it on dead balls or after timeouts for a handful of possessions.

They have great positional flexibility with both Kidd and Marion able to guard at least three different positions. Neither are what they used to be, but this flexibility allows Dallas to hide some of their weaker defenders easier against non-threats. Given their size in the front court, they look to funnel teams toward the middle of the floor with their pick and roll coverage due to the ability to consistently have a shot-blocking threat protecting the rim at the center position.

Quote:
Overall, the Mavericks defensive scheme is a very heady one that takes advantage of the veteran nature of the team. The team moves seamlessly in and out different defenses, rotates effectively, and switches actions between two similar-sized players (Kidd-Stevenson, Barea-Terry, etc) with cool efficiency. Carlisle doesn

[pauk]

A combination of 5 things:

1. Lebron being passive and taking ridicilously low FG attempts (he didnt shoot bad, he just wasnt agressive, 48% FG) and most importantly looked like taking a backseat to Wade who after being a 2nd fiddle entire year all of the sudden heard Wade say: "I am the leader of this team, it all starts with me" sitting next to him on the press conference before game 1 of the Finals....

2. Wade dominating the ball/not taking a backseat like he did this year... not understanding that it had to be LEBRON to lead this team....
Maybe Spoelstra had something to do with this aswell... (i love Wade, but for this team to win the championship, Lebron had to come first and this year he did recognize it)

3. Coaching...

4. Mavs excellent zone defense, but imo it wouldnt have been such big of a problem if those 2-3 problems above were solved first, like they were solved this year...

5. Lack of focus, to worried about how others percieved him, didnt have fun....

Just lots of.. excuse me but SHIT...

With other words... Lebron could NOT play his game (this game you see today), nor did Miami...

Today its just completely different, Miami is completely different in terms of chemistry, coaching, offense, defense, plays, experience, will, focus, Wade taking a backseat to Lebron, the process was done... everybody is comfortable with their roles and are placed at the correct roles, they know exactly what to do and what not to do... they were ready...

[Rake2204]

A combination of 5 things:

1. Lebron being passive and taking ridicilously low FG attempts (he didnt shoot bad, he just wasnt agressive, 48% FG) and most importantly looked like taking a backseat to Wade who after being a 2nd fiddle entire year all of the sudden heard Wade say: "I am the leader of this team, it all starts with me" sitting next to him on the press conference before game 1 of the Finals....

2. Wade dominating the ball/not taking a backseat like he did this year... not understanding that it had to be LEBRON to lead this team....
Maybe Spoelstra had something to do with this aswell... (i love Wade, but for this team to win the championship, Lebron had to come first and this year he did recognize it)

3. Coaching...

4. Mavs excellent zone defense, but imo it wouldnt have been such big of a problem if those 2-3 problems above were solved first, like they were solved this year...

5. Lack of focus, to worried about how others percieved him, didnt have fun....

Just lots of.. excuse me but SHIT...

With other words... Lebron could NOT play his game (this game you see today), nor did Miami...

Today its just completely different, Miami is completely different in terms of chemistry, coaching, offense, defense, plays, experience, will, focus, Wade taking a backseat to Lebron, the process was done... everybody is comfortable with their roles and are placed at the correct roles, they know exactly what to do and what not to do... they were ready...
I also agree it was a mix of things. However, I believe Dallas' defense was the catalyst for the meltdown. I'm quite certain if Miami had run into a less established defensive opponent in the 2011 Finals, LeBron James would have had no problem running directly through it.

As it stands, I don't think James' mindset in '11 was to withdraw himself from the team. Rather, the feeling I had was that he'd recognized Dallas' gameplan was to double and triple him and his drives. As such, he likely thought his other two superstar friends would pick up the slack. James would draw heavy attention, his teammates would make them pay.

This is going to sound like the worst comparison ever, but I have to admit there's been times in basketball games where I've been one of the two best players on a team. We'd usually just play our games like normal. But if the opponent showed a willingness to overplay me, box and one me, or otherwise, I have to admit there were moments where I'd sort of withdraw offensively and play with an, "Alright, then I'll just let my teammate kill you then" sort of attitude. That's what James sort of reminded me of last year.

The difference to me this year (in part) was James' willingness to no longer overly-defer to his fellow superstars. I think the injuries to his teammates were a blessing, as it led to his takeover. On the same hand, he still shared the ball a ton this year, and it very greatly helped his team's chances of winning to have his teammates hit the shots he set them up for.

[noosaman]

The excuses for lebron are hilarious. if you watched any of the Mavs' run, Marion shut down everyone. He held lebron to 32% shooting in both regular season meetings and shut him down 6 consecutive playoffs games. But somehow he gets no credit and it was only because lebron was "mentally out of it." Unbelievable.

[ihoopallday]

He choked. There's no sugarcoating it. At least he was able to recover this year and win. Guarantee the same thing happens to OKC.

[ErhnamDjinn]

difference this year was LBJ's post game his willingness to take over and OKC being a mainly perimeter team and Harden vanishing+ a little of Scotty being out coached. Last year's finals saw also super Dirk, Marion playing offense defense, and guys like Stevenson,Barrea and Terry showing up when it mattered the most. Plus Dallas also had a better center then Ibaka who was fit to a T for Dallas.

[amfirst]

Mavs defense was on another level. They were able to knock LeBron off balance so his shot wasn't consistant. THat's why they are veterans. The Thunders didn't even play any good defense on LeBron because of the missmatch. The players were too small, thin and young and he did not get bumped around like the Dallas series. Take off your homer glasses.

[Peteballa]

Honestly... it was both. The Mavs D would wipe the floor with the Thunder and probably beat the 2012 Heat, but at the same time, LeBron didn't even look like he was trying out there... He just looked like he gave up and took himself out of the equation. Glad that that LeBron is no more.

[ripthekik]

Lebron choked of course. His level of play fell off so much it was actually funny.

But Mav's did play much better D on him than Thunders. Scott Brooks totally failed in this aspect: he put Harden on him for many times :oldlol:
This guy is supposed to be the coach of the year? Harden was too short, too small, too weak. Brooks should have implemented a team help system, but he was too adamant to change it up. He failed his team.

[nightprowler10]

Yeah I don't think OKC has bad defenders, they just need a better defensive minded coach.

[mrhoopfan]

Bron had a post game this past season. Would've took Marion and Stevenson down there if he would've had this part to his game then

[ImmortalD24]

Mavs were destiny last season. Unbelievable zone defense. :bowdown: