Kobe Bryant 2005-06 vs Lebron James 2011-12

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2006/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/

Both were/are 27 years of age, both averaged 30+ppg, both averaged 5+ rebounds and 5+ assists. Who ya got?

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron James. Better defender, less bonehead shots/plays.

[brownmamba00]

kobe

better defender, way more clutch and the better scorer

[Bigsmoke]

LeBron > Kobe

[pauk]

Lebron.... come on...

*Better overall productions (especially in the playoffs)
*Better defense
*More dominant
*More successful (MVP, most 1st all-nba & most 1st all-defensive team votes, DPOY votes, Finals, championship & fmvp?)

[BEAST Griffin]

Lebron is putting up these numbers sharing the ball with Wade.

/thread

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron.... come on...

*Better overall productions (especially in the playoffs)
*Better defense
*More dominant
*More successful (MVP, most 1st all-nba & most 1st all-defensive team votes, DPOY votes, Finals, championship & fmvp?)
Kobetards bout to have a field day..

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron > Kobe


This. Im not even a Kobe hater. But Lebron is the better player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron James. Better defender, less bonehead shots/plays.

Agreed. Yeah, Kobe gave you 35 a night and was probably a better crunch-time player, but Lebron is far more consistent. He may disappear stretches of a game, sure, YET you can pencil him in for an efficient 30/7/5 (plus, as as you said, he was a better defender). Just my opinion though. I do think it's close.

[pauk]

Kobetards bout to have a field day..

I am aiming that towards the topic... as this year of Lebron (2011-12) vs what Kobe did in 2005-06.... meaning Lebron was more successful this year than Kobe in 2005-06, that year alone...

[inclinerator]

lebron impacted more kobe was the better scorer

[Indian guy]

Kobe.

It's not close.

[PJR]

Kobrick has never better better than LeGawd(since he entered his prime). Scoring more ppg on more shots does not make you better.

Lol Kobrick would have demanded a trade from Cleveland after his rookie year.

[Heavincent]

Kobrick has never better better than LeGawd. Scoring more ppg on more shots does not make you better.

:roll: :facepalm

[DirtySanchez]

Lebron James. Better defender, less bonehead shots/plays.

Better defender WTF are you smoking?

[pauk]

Kobe career up to 2005-06 (age 27, played 10 seasons)
3 x Champion (as a sidekick)
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x All-Star MVP
4 x 1st All-NBA team
4 x 1st All-Defensive team
6 x Player of the Month

STATS:
16866 pts @ 23.8 PPG
3634 rbs @ 5.1 RPG
3148 asts @ 4.4 APG
1059 stls @ 1.5 SPG
431 blks @ 0.6 BPG

PER - 22.5

Lebrons career up to 2011-12 (age 27, played 9 seasons)
3 x MVP
1 x Rookie of the Year
1 x FMVP (coming up in a week)
1 x Champion (as the man/mvp/leader/best player, coming up in a week)
8 x NBA All-Star
6 x 1st All-NBA team
4 x 1st All-Defensive team
2 x All-Star MVP
1 x Olympic Gold
20 x Player of the Month (#1 all-time)

STATS:
19045 pts @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all-time)
4943 rbs @ 7.2 RPG
4751 asts @ 6.9 APG
1194 stls @ 1.7 SPG
582 blks @ 0.8 BPG

PER - 27.2 (#2 all-time behind only Jordan)










Ouch....

[Velocirap31]

Kobe didn't have a gold medal by the time he was 27? I thought he was on the team with Vince, Payton, Garnett, etc. that won gold in Sydney.

[red1]

Kobrick has never better better than LeGawd(since he entered his prime). Scoring more ppg on more shots does not make you better.

Lol Kobrick would have demanded a trade from Cleveland after his rookie year.
if anything it would be lebrick, kobe>>bron as a shooter

[eliteballer]

Kobe was flat out better.

No jumper having LeBron getting numbers in a lockout shortened muckety season playing with two other top 20 players........not really comparable.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe career up to 2005-06 (age 27, played 10 seasons)
3 x Champion (as a sidekick)
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x All-Star MVP
4 x 1st All-NBA team
4 x 1st All-Defensive team
6 x Player of the Month

STATS:
16866 pts @ 23.8 PPG
3634 rbs @ 5.1 RPG
3148 asts @ 4.4 APG
1059 stls @ 1.5 SPG
431 blks @ 0.6 BPG

PER - 22.5

Lebrons career up to 2011-12 (age 27, played 9 seasons)
3 x MVP
1 x Rookie of the Year
1 x FMVP (coming up in a week)
1 x Champion (as the man/mvp/leader/best player, coming up in a week)
8 x NBA All-Star
6 x 1st All-NBA team
4 x 1st All-Defensive team
2 x All-Star MVP
1 x Olympic Gold
20 x Player of the Month (#1 all-time)

STATS:
19045 pts @ 27.6 PPG (#3 all-time)
4943 rbs @ 7.2 RPG
4751 asts @ 6.9 APG
1194 stls @ 1.7 SPG
582 blks @ 0.8 BPG

PER - 27.2 (#2 all-time behind only Jordan)










Ouch....

I hope you remebered to wipe the splooge off of the computer screen. Lebron stans get hard ons for stats.

[pauk]

Kobe didn't have a gold medal by the time he was 27? I thought he was on the team with Vince, Payton, Garnett, etc. that won gold in Sydney.

He wasnt...

Kobe was in one Olympic National Championship Team (Beijing 2008)... and one FIBA Americas Championship Team (Las Vegas 2007)

[inclinerator]

Kobe was flat out better.

No jumper having LeBron getting numbers in a lockout shortened muckety season playing with two other top 20 players........not really comparable.
playing so many games in so little days hurts your stats fatigue wise

[pauk]

I hope you remebered to wipe the splooge off of the computer screen. Lebron stans get hard ons for stats.

*wipe wipe*

[TheMarkMadsen]

*wipe wipe*
:applause:









:wtf:

[red1]

pauk has to be the most level-headed troll on this site

[tpols]

Pauk.:oldlol:

The fact that you're switching the Op's question from 06 Kobe versus 12 Lebron, to 'their careers up until' tells us all we need to know about the answer to this thread.

[arifgokcen]

First of all i love both players and i have watched most of their games since their third year.However lebron seems to affect the game more than kobe.Especially defensively lebron is probably the best defender we have right now.Kobe has never been as good as james defensively

[PJR]

Seriously, all jokes aside. All trolling aside. Someone humor me as to why Bryant was better?

Because of his scoring rampage on a garbage team? That's it? Compared to the all around display LeBron has put on? Not to mention his current 30-10-5 averages in the postseason?

Seriously, no arguement can be made from an objective viewpoint.

[Indian guy]

Better defender WTF are you smoking?

What are you smoking? '12 LeBron's defense is indeed A LOT better than '06 Kobe's was. In fact, probably better than any version of Kobe. The difference lies in offense though. '06 Kobe was just flat out dominant on that end of the floor. He could carry his team for 40+ minutes every night and take over games at will. And that's what it's all about. Current LeBron has no ability to sustain an attack and carry his team for extended periods the way peak Kobe could.

[blablabla]

gawdbe

[L8k3r5]

Lebron James. Better defender, less bonehead shots/plays.
:kobe: You clearly didn't watch Kobe in his prime.

[arifgokcen]

What are you smoking? '12 LeBron's defense is indeed A LOT better than '06 Kobe's was. In fact, probably better than any version of Kobe. The difference lies in offense though. '06 Kobe was just flat out dominant on that end of the floor. He could carry his team for 40+ minutes every night and take over games at will. And that's what it's all about. Current LeBron has no ability to sustain an attack and carry his team for extended periods the way peak Kobe could.
Sorry but lebron stamina is unmatched.This postseason he is averaging 31-10-5 on 50%.Kobe one year averaged 35ppg on 46%.He wasnt very efficient took 27 shots to average 35.Lebron ability to carry bad team is unmatched in history.Dont forget he can basically average 30-8-9 without wade.Lebron was responsible for half of his teams points in 2009-2010 which is actually higher number than kobe in 2006

[L8k3r5]

pauk has to be the most level-headed troll on this site
He is and he knows it. He's like Skip Bayless except, he gets boners when he sees Lebron.

[L8k3r5]

Where's ShaqAttack when we need him?

[Flagrant 2]

Kobe. All the people saying LeBron weren't old enough to watch Kobe in his prime and are just prisoners of the moment.

[tmacattack33]

Are you serious right now?

If things keep going this way, Lebron is on pace for a season unheard of since MJ and Shaq.

And ur comparing him to Kobe 2006?

:roll:

[BEAST Griffin]

:kobe: You clearly didn't watch Kobe in his prime.

I did. And Lebron impacts a game more than Kobe.

:lebronamazed:

[Bigsmoke]

:kobe: You clearly didn't watch Kobe in his prime.

losing to the Suns after being up 3-1


nope. never heard of him.

[L8k3r5]

I did. And Lebron impacts a game more than Kobe.

:lebronamazed:
Not in the 4th quarter :roll: :roll:

[Bigsmoke]

Not in the 4th quarter :roll: :roll:

didn't Kobe disappeared in the 2nd half in game 7 vs the Suns?

you didnt think i forget about that huh. :biggums:

i think he scored like 1 points.... in an elimination game

[All Net]

Kobe was the better scorer but Lebron's all-round game and dominances is unmatched. Kobe was amazing that year. Truely great season but Lebron has been amazing this season.

[L8k3r5]

losing to the Suns after being up 3-1


nope. never heard of him.
You're comparing the 2006 Lakers to the 2006 Suns. Lakers were lucky to even be up 3-1.
Lebron's Cavs losing to the Magic in 2009.
Again losing to the Celtics in 2010.
And again losing to the Mavs last year after being up 2-1.
C'mon son. :coleman:

[L8k3r5]

didn't Kobe disappeared in the 2nd half in game 7 vs the Suns?

you didnt think i forget about that huh. :biggums:
Sorry I don't recall. I can recall Lebron's disappearance many times though. It's so bad for him, that he has to meditate just to keep himself calm.
http://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Screen-shot-2011-06-10-at-3.30.33-PM-e1307733867419.png

[Bigsmoke]

You're comparing the 2006 Lakers to the 2006 Suns. Lakers were lucky to even be up 3-1.
Lebron's Cavs losing to the Magic in 2009.
Again losing to the Celtics in 2010.
And again losing to the Mavs last year after being up 2-1.
C'mon son. :coleman:

lol The Suns weren't even that good. :lol

and still lose after being up 3-1
that series was the last time a team ever came back after being down 1-3

The Suns are known as a horrible defensive team and Kobe manage to score 1 points in 2 quarter while his season is on the line. Great stuff Kobe :lol

LeBron was never shitted on Paul Pierce either.

[BEAST Griffin]

Lebron against the low pace, good defense Celtics vs Kobe against the high pace bad defense Suns:


11-12 Lebron against the Celtics: 33.6ppg (52.7%), 11.0rpg, 3.9apg, 1.1bpg, 1.3spg, 3.4to

05-06 Kobe against the Suns: 27.9ppg (49.7%), 6.3rpg, 5.1apg, 1.1spg, 0.4bpg, 4.7to



NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Imagine current Lebron against the 05-06 Suns. :eek:

[Soundwave]

LeBron > Kobe

Pretty much the same level of scoring + better D + better passing + better rebounding.

[Bigsmoke]

Sorry I don't recall. I can recall Lebron's disappearance many times though. It's so bad for him, that he has to meditate just to keep himself calm.
http://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Screen-shot-2011-06-10-at-3.30.33-PM-e1307733867419.png

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/khensu/kobe.jpg

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Seriously, all jokes aside. All trolling aside. Someone humor me as to why Bryant was better?

Because of his scoring rampage on a garbage team? That's it? Compared to the all around display LeBron has put on? Not to mention his current 30-10-5 averages in the postseason?

Seriously, no arguement can be made from an objective viewpoint.

Offensively he was better. Probably not an overall better passer. And even then, it's just that LeBron is a more willing passer. You have to understand how much of a threat Kobe was back then. He was a threat to literally drop 50 on you at any given time and could single handedly win games. Not just with his own scoring, but opening up the game for his teammates (mainly Smush and Lamar).

And maybe you go off of the ISH consensus that Kobe hasn't played defense since 2003, but in 2006 Kobe was still one of the best perimeter defenders in the game. Not as good as he was before, when he didn't have to do so much offensively, but he would regularly guard the other team's best player and could still lock them up when he needed to. Guys like Vince Carter, Ray Allen and others.

- Smak

[Fudge]

Kobe.

LeBrons having a tremendous year though. Can't really deny that.

[BEAST Griffin]

LeBron > Kobe

Pretty much the same level of scoring + better D + better passing + better rebounding.

Kobe averaged 27.9 ppg on 49.7% against a garbage defense team in the first round.

Lebron has been scoring 30+ ppg since the 1st round against better defensive teams with better efficiency.

[KingBeasley08]

Lebron easy

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkxOW8GsbvU

[BEAST Griffin]

here comes the Kobe brigade with regular season scoring feats....

[che guevara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkxOW8GsbvU
Okay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VzBeOrdAg&feature=plcp

I'll take '12 Lebron because I'm not at all a fan of Kobe's approach in '05-'06. It would be very, very difficult to win a ring with a guy playing that way. His performance vs. the Suns was also underwhelming, he should've obliterated their weak defense.

[NumberSix]

Just let it go Kobe stans. Just admit it already that LeBron is easily the better player. It's really a joke at this point that some of you are still clinging on.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Just let it go Kobe stans. Just admit it already that LeBron is easily the better player. It's really a joke at this point that some of you are still clinging on.
:oldlol:

[bwink23]

Agreed. Yeah, Kobe gave you 35 a night and was probably a better crunch-time player, but Lebron is far more consistent. He may disappear stretches of a game, sure, YET you can pencil him in for an efficient 30/7/5 (plus, as as you said, he was a better defender). Just my opinion though. I do think it's close.


2006 was a banner year for ***** foul calls...:lol Every scorer was getting career highs that year. Go check Kobe's numbers on the road vs. at home in 2006....it is literally NIGHT AND DAY.

[macpierce]

i'll go with kobe...........not by much tho

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

2006 was a banner year for ***** foul calls...:lol Every scorer was getting career highs that year. Go check Kobe's numbers on the road vs. at home in 2006....it is literally NIGHT AND DAY.

Yeah, he was definitely getting some home cookin'. Guy had a good scoring season, but like most, I'd take Lebron. Just a better all-around player - and more importantly, he's CONSISTENT. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

2006 was a banner year for ***** foul calls...:lol Every scorer was getting career highs that year. Go check Kobe's numbers on the road vs. at home in 2006....it is literally NIGHT AND DAY.
A lot of players' numbers drop on the road

[Remix]

Okay?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VzBeOrdAg&feature=plcp

I'll take '12 Lebron because I'm not at all a fan of Kobe's approach in '05-'06. It would be very, very difficult to win a ring with a guy playing that way. His performance vs. the Suns was also underwhelming, he should've obliterated their weak defense.

I think you meant very difficult to win a ring with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Chris Mihm starting.

[eliteballer]

Kobe was playing one knee the whole year too. He could barely dunk in some games.

Next season when his knee was healthy he dropped 37 ppg with ten 50 point games once he recovered from offseason surgery...

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Yeah, he was definitely getting some home cookin'. Guy had a good scoring season, but like most, I'd take Lebron. Just a better all-around player - and more importantly, he's CONSISTENT. :oldlol:

Sustaining elite scoring over the course of 80 games isn't consistent?

If you mean he has more bad shooting nights than LeBron, well yes, that's common sense if someone shoots a lower percentage than another. But it isn't like he was Lin and played like god for 2-3 weeks then came down to Earth. Dude had 2 40 PPG months and the rest he was over 31 PPG.

Kobe in the 2005-2006 season had ONE game where he played more than 35 minutes and had less than 20 points.

- Smak

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sustaining elite scoring over the course of 80 games isn't consistent?

If you mean he has more bad shooting nights than LeBron, well yes, that's common sense if someone shoots a lower percentage than another. But it isn't like he was Lin and played like god for 2-3 weeks then came down to Earth. Dude had 2 40 PPG months and the rest he was over 31 PPG.

Kobe in the 2005-2006 season had ONE game where he played more than 35 minutes and had less than 20 points.

- Smak

There were far too many games he (Kobe) shot below 40% for me to consider him consistent. 23 games to be precise - and in those 23 games, the Lakers went 9-14.

Like I said, he was GREAT, just not as good as Lebron. BTW, why do you keep singing "Smak" under your posts? :oldlol:

[LamarOdom]

Kobe averaged 27.9 ppg on 49.7% against a garbage defense team in the first round.

Lebron has been scoring 30+ ppg since the 1st round against better defensive teams with better efficiency.

This just show that you knwo nothing about basketball, first of all Kobe didn't shoot on purpose he wanted to show everyone what would happen if he didn't shoot since everyone was criticizing him for shooting to much.

Are you really saying the Suns sucked? the team that finished second in the western conference.

Yeah whatever dude and BTW Suns didn't suck on defense, thy were actually quite good only that yhey always played fast paced leading to more possessions.

[lilgodfather1]

So now Kobe fans want to use stats to try and say as to why Kobe was better in a season where he lost in the first round, and LeBron is in the finals up 2-1 willing his team to victories. Lol how the tables have turned eh.

Even if you want to use stats LeBron's are better lol.

35ppg is damn impressive, but his defense wasn't even half as good as LeBron's has been this year (robbed of DPOY), Kobe didn't win MVP, LeBron did, Kobe lost in the first round, LeBron is in the finals. Kobe had an all time great scoring season, LeBron is having an all time great season. Big, big difference.

[Heavincent]

Definitely Kobe. Completely unstoppable scorer.

[SuperPippen]

Before the playoffs started, I would have said Kobe quite easily. It's not an overstatement to say that Kobe was simply legendary that year. '06 Kobe has to be one of the most dominant scorers the game has ever seen.

But LeBron has been playing at such a high level in these playoffs, with such impressive all-around brilliance in an atmosphere with raised stakes, that I think I'm going with him.

[LBJMVP]

Kobe.

It's not close.


really?

i not a lebron fan, but to say that lebron vs kobe in their primes isn't close is pretty laughable.

[jaydacris]

kobe put up those numbers while dealing with the stress and anger of knowing he had to start every game with kwame and smush by his side

[SuperPippen]

kobe put up those numbers while dealing with the stress and anger of knowing he had to start every game with kwame and smush by his side

Perhaps that is a valid point, but it isn't as valid as the fact that LeBron could have put up better numbers without having to share the ball with Wade.

[LBJMVP]

Perhaps that is a valid point, but it isn't as valid as the fact that LeBron could have put up better numbers without having to share the ball with Wade.


really?

he would have had possibly less assist, the same amount of rebounds, and what like, 3 more points, maybe?

[PJR]

kobe put up those numbers while dealing with the stress and anger of knowing he had to start every game with kwame and smush by his side


:oldlol: Boo fvcking hoo. Kobrick plays with scrubs two years after playing sidekick to the MDE for 8 years, and cried like a little bitch about it.

Meanwhile in Cleveland, LeBron's making chicken salad out of chicken shit on the regular. Eric Snow, Ira Newble, Boobie Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic etc etc.

[jaydacris]

im just trolling :lol

[unbreakable]

kobe in 05 was out of this world. stellar defense, UNSTOPPABLE OFFENSE (quickness, first step, handle, jumper were all at equilibrium)

:bowdown:

i love lebron but kobe 05 takes it

[Dave3]

Not to get off topic, but is 2006 really Kobe's best year or do some people here prefer his 2007 year?

[talkingconch]

Lebron.... come on...

*Better overall productions (especially in the playoffs)
*Better defense
*More dominant
*More successful (MVP, most 1st all-nba & most 1st all-defensive team votes, DPOY votes, Finals, championship & fmvp?)
http://250kb.de/u/120203/g/vibCyQtF0jEA.gif

[The Iron Fist]

There were far too many games he (Kobe) shot below 40% for me to consider him consistent. 23 games to be precise - and in those 23 games, the Lakers went 9-14.

Like I said, he was GREAT, just not as good as Lebron. BTW, why do you keep singing "Smak" under your posts? :oldlol:
Post the fg percentages of the other four starters for those 23 games.

[Quickening]

LeBron James.. just comfortably a better all around player.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Lebron:applause:

[madmax]

losing to the Suns after being up 3-1


nope. never heard of him.

:lol :roll:
Looks like Lord Kobeee wasn't so keen on winning then...(or maybe elite bigmen were simply absent to carry his sorry bricking ass in the playoffs:D )

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol The Suns weren't even that good. :lol

and still lose after being up 3-1
that series was the last time a team ever came back after being down 1-3

The Suns are known as a horrible defensive team and Kobe manage to score 1 points in 2 quarter while his season is on the line. Great stuff Kobe :lol

LeBron was never shitted on Paul Pierce either.
His team was down by 25 at the start of the 4th Quarter in Game 7

Just such a horrible post

:facepalm

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron has yet to lose in first round(minus the first two years missing playoffs), let alone doing it twice.

[Sakkreth]

LeBron easily, impact on defense not even comparable.

[Flamboyant]

Kobe '06 > Durant '12

I'll leave the second part of my post to be understood.

[G-Funk]

Kobe, better defender more clutch, better scorer.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron has yet to lose in first round(minus the first two years missing playoffs), let alone doing it twice.
You seriously comparing the Western Conference to the Eastern Conference?

Wow

[OmniStrife]

Lebron has yet to lose in first round(minus the first two years missing playoffs), let alone doing it twice.

This... And besides what are people smoking here anyways?

Kobe never was as good a player as Lebron in this season... :biggums:

[brownmamba00]

**** 06 I'll take 08 kobe over every version of kb and lbj

[SilkkTheShocker]

Replace Kobe with 2012 Lebron and the 06 Lakers have a better regular season record imo. I honestly doubt they would have been playing the Suns in the 1st round. Lebron has historically done well against the west in the regular season. As for the 06 Lakers, they had some terrible players. But they weren't all that much different than Lebron's Cavalier teams before 2008. Horrible starting point guards, (Snow/Parker), inconsistent 2nd options, (Hughes/Odom) Cleveland had a better bench, Lakers had a better coach. A better question would have been 08 Kobe or 12 Lebron imo. 06 Kobe was a beast, I even think he was the best player in the NBA. But I just remember him more as a scorer. Kobe seemed like a more complete player in 08. Im not a stats guy (go figure being a Bron fan :oldlol: ), so someone like Deuce or another Laker fan can probably shoot holes in that arguement. But I thought 07-08 Kobe was very underrated. His defense was great that season. People forget the Lakers were rolling through the west even before the Gasol trade.

[Vertical-24]

This is extremely hard to determine...and I admit bias but i'm going to take 05-06 Kobe.

*Absolute crunch-time player, the player you wanted taking the last shot and leading you down the stretch.

*Better man-to-man defender. Kobe was still a lock-down at will defender and a beautiful transition defender. I do give LeBron a slight advantage in help defense however.

*Better shooter. LeBron is not a known jump-shooter, despite a decent jumper this season. Kobe was more of a skilled shooter with greater range and versatility.

*One of the best one-on-one players the league has ever seen. Absolute offensive weapon who could take any single defender. This season he was an absolute 1v1 monster...haven't seen one like that since Jordan.

*Robbed of MVP.

Some of the points I will give LeBron will be:

-More successful team
-Better help-defender, transition defender
-Better drive, a bit more consistent
-NBA Finals

But yeah...Kobe has my vote. He was in absolute god-mode pretty much the whole season.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Vertical, you make some good points. I don't agree with the defense part, but it what it is. But when you say Kobe was robbed of MVP, that means the league robbed Lebron in 07 and 08, right? Fair or not, regular season wins are a huge part of the MVP process. Pretty much the only reason Rose won it last season. I agree, his team was trash and shouldn't have been anywhere near the playoffs. But he wasn't robbed.

[Richie2k6]

This is extremely hard to determine...and I admit bias but i'm going to take 05-06 Kobe.

*Absolute crunch-time player, the player you wanted taking the last shot and leading you down the stretch.

*Better man-to-man defender. Kobe was still a lock-down at will defender and a beautiful transition defender. I do give LeBron a slight advantage in help defense however.

*Better shooter. LeBron is not a known jump-shooter, despite a decent jumper this season. Kobe was more of a skilled shooter with greater range and versatility.

*One of the best one-on-one players the league has ever seen. Absolute offensive weapon who could take any single defender. This season he was an absolute 1v1 monster...haven't seen one like that since Jordan.

*Robbed of MVP.

Some of the points I will give LeBron will be:

-More successful team
-Better help-defender, transition defender
-Better drive, a bit more consistent
-NBA Finals

But yeah...Kobe has my vote. He was in absolute god-mode pretty much the whole season.
how many MVPs in modern history won just 45 games?

[Coffee Black]

*cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84 *cough*

[Mach_3]

What are you smoking? '12 LeBron's defense is indeed A LOT better than '06 Kobe's was. In fact, probably better than any version of Kobe. The difference lies in offense though. '06 Kobe was just flat out dominant on that end of the floor. He could carry his team for 40+ minutes every night and take over games at will. And that's what it's all about. Current LeBron has no ability to sustain an attack and carry his team for extended periods the way peak Kobe could.

I'll give you 06' Kobe probably. but 2000-2002/03 Kobe? hell no

[lilblingy]

how many MVPs in modern history won just 45 games?

45 wins with the squad he had is impressive shit.

[SilkkTheShocker]

45 wins with the squad he had is impressive shit.


It was. But they aren't about to change the way they do the MVP.

[The Iron Fist]

It was. But they aren't about to change the way they do the MVP.
There is no set way. They change it as they vote.

[LBJFTW]

PER - 27.2 (#2 all-time behind only Jordan)

And that is where he will forever remain. Behind Jordan.

[L8k3r5]

Lebron has yet to lose in first round(minus the first two years missing playoffs), let alone doing it twice.
What does that have to do with anything? He's lost twice in the Finals and multiple times deep in the playoffs. That's worse than losing in the first round. Pointless stat.:facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

Not to get off topic, but is 2006 really Kobe's best year or do some people here prefer his 2007 year?

To be honest, I would take 2003 Kobe over all versions of Kobe.

I don't know why 2003 Kobe gets slept on.

[All Net]

45 wins with the squad he had is impressive shit.

What was impressive about that team exactly?

[tpols]

Replace Kobe with 2012 Lebron and the 06 Lakers have a better regular season record imo. I honestly doubt they would have been playing the Suns in the 1st round. Lebron has historically done well against the west in the regular season. As for the 06 Lakers, they had some terrible players. But they weren't all that much different than Lebron's Cavalier teams before 2008. Horrible starting point guards, (Snow/Parker), inconsistent 2nd options, (Hughes/Odom) Cleveland had a better bench, Lakers had a better coach. A better question would have been 08 Kobe or 12 Lebron imo. 06 Kobe was a beast, I even think he was the best player in the NBA. But I just remember him more as a scorer. Kobe seemed like a more complete player in 08. Im not a stats guy (go figure being a Bron fan :oldlol: ), so someone like Deuce or another Laker fan can probably shoot holes in that arguement. But I thought 07-08 Kobe was very underrated. His defense was great that season. People forget the Lakers were rolling through the west even before the Gasol trade.
First off, Lebron's teams from 06-08 were definitely more stacked relative to the conference.. they got to go through old Nets and Pistons teams year in and year out as well as the Wizards. which doesnt compare to the competition out west.. you're talking prime steve nash, joe johnson, amare, marion, insane 3 pt shooting.. the competition wasnt close.

And his team records before 08 were..

45-37
50-32
50-32

compared to Kobe's 45-37.. while playing in a much tougher conference.

So Kobe had worse teammates, harder competition, and his teams performed almost on par as Lebron record wise, except with 45 wins in the WC LA only got the 7 seed while Lebron got the 4th. Which led to Lebron having HCA against the Wizards and LA not having HCA and facing the much, much better Suns.

Again same exact record and those are the draws.. I dont get how people dont look at this and just post blind stats.

[The Iron Fist]

What was impressive about that team exactly?
Nothing was impressive about the team. What was impressve was that during the preseason, the writers aka the voters of the mvp award had the Lakers penciled in for 11th or 12 th place in the west.

When it came time to vote for mvp, all of those voters suddenly forgot their preseason predictions and acted like Kobe had no value to his team when he had the most value of any player that year based on his stats and how far he carried that team when it was said he wouldnt even get them to the playoffs. Dude played in the west, carries real scrubs to 45 wins and posts an amazing stats season.

But its not enough?

[SilkkTheShocker]

First off, Lebron's teams from 06-08 were definitely more stacked relative to the conference.. they got to go through old Nets and Pistons teams year in and year out as well as the Wizards. which doesnt compare to the competition out west.. you're talking prime steve nash, joe johnson, amare, marion, insane 3 pt shooting.. the competition wasnt close.

And his team records before 08 were..

45-37
50-32
50-32

compared to Kobe's 45-37.. while playing in a much tougher conference.

So Kobe had worse teammates, harder competition, and his teams performed almost on par as Lebron record wise, except with 45 wins in the WC LA only got the 7 seed while Lebron got the 4th. Which led to Lebron having HCA against the Wizards and LA not having HCA and facing the much, much better Suns.

Again same exact record and those are the draws.. I dont get how people dont look at this and just post blind stats.


Stopped reading after that part. Anyone that thinks Lebron's Cavs team were stacked in anyway, has an agenda. They were stacked "relative" to high school teams. :oldlol: I think thats what you meant.

[The Iron Fist]

Stopped reading after that part. Anyone that thinks Lebron's Cavs team were stacked in anyway, has an agenda. They were stacked "relative" to high school teams. :oldlol: I think thats what you meant.
You are entirely too stupid to grasp what he said in plain english. He never said those teams were stacked in the literal sense. The funny thing is, you bolded it and still dont get it.:roll:

[SilkkTheShocker]

You are entirely too stupid to grasp what he said in plain english. He never said those teams were stacked in the literal sense. The funny thing is, you bolded it and still dont get it.:roll:

I get what he said. He is saying the East was so bad that Lebron's Cavalier teams were more well built compared to the rest of the conference. The problem is that is false.

[tpols]

Stopped reading after that part. Anyone that thinks Lebron's Cavs team were stacked in anyway, has an agenda. They were stacked "relative" to high school teams. :oldlol: I think thats what you meant.
If you're too stupid to reply to the main point of my post and cherrypick one word for a semantics debate I dont really care what your opinion is.:confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

If you're too stupid to reply to the main point of my post and cherrypick one word for a semantics debate I dont really care what your opinion is.:confusedshrug:

Yet you cared to respond anyway to me, right? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[tpols]

You are entirely too stupid to grasp what he said in plain english. He never said those teams were stacked in the literal sense. The funny thing is, you bolded it and still dont get it.:roll:
lol.. I CLEARLY was saying he had a better team than Kobe did.. neither team was 'stacked'.. it was just a way of saying 'better team'.

Of course if you took it literally that I said Lebron's teams were 'more stacked' than Kobe's, that would mean Kobe's were also 'stacked' just to a lesser degree.. it's just eluding points because you cant really refute them.

[tpols]

I get what he said. He is saying the East was so bad that Lebron's Cavalier teams were more well built compared to the rest of the conference. The problem is that is false.
:roll: No.

The comparison was:

06 Lakers versus WC

and

06-08 Cavs versus EC

It wasnt just about Cavs versus their conference.. it was about both teams relative to their conference. Kobe had a much, much harder relative conference and despite that had similar win totals in that year except he had to face the suns w/o HCA instead of the Wizards.. while also having worse teammates.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Where's ShaqAttack when we need him?

I appreciate it, but I'm not sure why my opinion is particularly important on the matter. :oldlol:

Anyway, Kobe impressed me more. '06 Kobe was an example of everything coming together. His skills were peaking, he still had his athleticism at 27, he matured into a leadership role in his 10th season as the Lakers rebuilt the team around him and he had the green light.

Phil told Kobe to carry the offense until the cast learned the triangle, but they still did run the triangle, and contrary to popular belief, Kobe didn't just come out firing from the start of every game. Sometimes he did, but sometimes his teammates got involved early. And he was willing to play a more unselfish style as evidenced by the Suns series when his teammates had started playing well and Phoenix wanted him to score. He almost pulled off the upset with 50 in OT in game 6.

I've heard ignorant posters state that many players ciuld average 35 given 27 shots per game, but very few players could even get off 27 shots they had a chance of making. It's also important to remember that the Lakers overachieved in many people's eyes.

Outside of Kobe and Odom, the Laker cast was pretty much role players who did 1 thing well and struggled at most other things. And Odom was ideally a 3rd option forced into the role of a second option playing 40+ mpg due to the Lakers lack of talent. He was also inconsistent in the first half, but when he finally played consistently at an all-star level, the Lakers went 19-11 in the second half, a 52 win pace and 11-3 to end the season showing up Kobe could do with any help.

Kobe's footwork, mid-range shot, post game, 3 point shooting with unlimited range, ball handling, aggressiveness and athleticism were unbelievable. Just a remarkable display of endurance and skill.

It's tough to compare to Lebron's current season because his expectations are nothing less than a championship. His Eastern Conference opponents were easier this year with a Knick team that didn't have chemistry and struggled with injuries, a young Pacer team that isn't ready and an old Celtic team. But with Wade declining and Bosh dealing with injuries, a title wasn't as "easy" as it could've been last year as he's had to carry a much bigger load.

He also showed a lot leading Miami to a 12-1 record when Wade was out, then again, Bosh stepped up and averaged 24/8 on 58% in those games, which still gave him a great second option. The Miami role players have been somewhat of a disappointment aside from Chalmers. But they've played much better since Bosh's injury. Joel Anthony did the job against Hibbert, Battier has started making shots and provides defense, and Haslem has shot a bit better in the playoffs while also providing defense and rebounding. Miller at least gives them a shooter.

But with Wade being past his prime, and Bosh dealing with injuries, he doesn't have the super team he did last season. And people did count Lebron out when he was down 2-1 to Indiana and 3-2 to Bosrton, but he came up big in both series and is having a fantastic playoff run.

Kobe was the better scoring, Lebron's jumper, footwork, moves and ball handling pale in comparison. But Lebron at 6'8", 265-270 has a big physical advantage over 6'6", 214 Kobe.

Lebron is currently more of an all around player since he's the better passer, rebounder and more consistently defensively than '06 Kobe. Lebron is the better help defender, but Kobe's man to man defense was still better than Lebron's, and despite the scoring load, he had some memorable performances shutting down some of the top shooting guards such as Vince Carter and Ray Allen.

Lebron is unstoppable in transition, though, I'd call him the best open court player in the league. I was concerned in the regular season that Lebron was relying on transition opportunities too much, but because he's been able to get them in the playoffs, and because he's one of the reasons Miami forces so many turnovers, it's not an issue to me.

But I'd still lean towards Kobe's individual dominance/ I have a hard time deciding between '06 and '08 as Kobe's best season, but Kobe himself called 2006 his best season.


"It's the best season I've had,'' Bryant said. 4/16/06 Sampson Independent.

'08 was the best all around ball he's played as far as playmaking, scoring, defense and rebounding combined, but '06 was his individual ability at his peak.

If you look at Kobe's cast it's tough to expect much more.

Lamar was ideally a 3rd option as I pointed out. He did operate as a point forward allowing Kobe to focus more on scoring and his passing/ball handling at 6'10" is rare. He also rebounds like a 6'10" player, has the unusual ability to get the rebound and go coast to coast, and he can score when he's aggressive. His flaws are not being able to go right making him prone to offensive fouls and he's not a very good shooter, though he did shoot 3s well that year.

Smush Parker shot 3s well and had individual ability, but he did not play intelligently. He was a decent pick up for LA and a surprise, but it's worth noting that he never found a permanent place in a team's rotation outside of LA.

Kwame was a good post defender and rebounder, but a terrible offensive player. His footwork was awful, his shooting touch was at least as bad and he had horrible hands.

Chris Mihm had a solid offensive game, but he wasn't a very good defender, and it's worth noting that LA played their best ball without him.

Devean George was a decent defender and a rotation player on the '02 champion Lakers, but a poor offensive player.

Luke Walton's only skill at that time was passing, which he did really well, but he couldn't defend, shoot or score back then. Not a guy you want in your rotation.

Brian Cook was a shooting power forward who didn't do anything else. I will admit that he had a good shooting season, though.

Sasha Vujacic was in the rotation for nothing other than shooting, and he had a terirble shooting season at under 35% from the field. That tells you something.

That's their rotation, it's tough to do anything with that garbage. I do wish Tim Thomas didn't hit the 3 and they pulled off the upset, because they would've had a shot vs the Clippers and Kobe taking that team to the WCF would've been remarkable. But going 45-37(45-35 w/ Kobe) in the West was amazing.

Then again, Lebron is about to win a title.

[D-Wade316]

I can't believe this is even a serious question. :facepalm

Wade, Dirk, and Lebron were better than Kobe in '06.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I appreciate it, but I'm not sure why my opinion is particularly important on the matter. :oldlol:

Anyway, Kobe impressed me more. .
The gawd has spoken.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I can't believe this is even a serious question. :facepalm

Wade, Dirk, and Lebron were better than Kobe in '06.

You are definitely trolling right now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I can't believe this is even a serious question. :facepalm

Wade, Dirk, and Lebron were better than Kobe in '06.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

****ing disgusting DWhistle fan :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

I appreciate it, but I'm not sure why my opinion is particularly important on the matter. :oldlol:

It's always a good read.

:cheers:


But I'd still lean towards Kobe's individual dominance/ I have a hard time deciding between '06 and '08 as Kobe's best season, but Kobe himself called 2006 his best season.

I've always felt that Kobe's 2002-03 season was right up there or perhaps his best. Maybe it was because I felt he could do really... anything that year, if you called him up for it. All-around play, scoring rampage, play great defense, shoot terrific from the perimeter, etc... you name it. I always felt that was a season he had to duplicate (though, there were some bad games in there too, but he usually more than made up for it).

I would go far as to say he deserved serious MVP talk... I really thought he played that good.

[PJR]

I can't believe this is even a serious question. :facepalm

Wade, Dirk, and Lebron were better than Kobe in '06.

Completly agree. Nash and Iverson were also better.

[D-Wade316]

It's always a good read.

:cheers:



I've always felt that Kobe's 2002-03 season was right up there or perhaps his best. Maybe it was because I felt he could do really... anything that year, if you called him up for it. All-around play, scoring rampage, play great defense, shoot terrific from the perimeter, etc... you name it. I always felt that was a season he had to duplicate (though, there were some bad games in there too, but he usually more than made up for it).

I would go far as to say he deserved serious MVP talk... I really thought he played that good.
08-09 was his best season, IMO.

[Legends66NBA7]

08-09 was his best season, IMO.

Yeah, that was a great year by him as well.

"Kobe's moment", coined by SI, after winning a title. Definitely a year Kobe really brought out the best of his teammates too.

[Deuce Bigalow]

08-09 was his best season, IMO.
The year Wade called Kobe "still the best player"

[BEAST Griffin]

Lebron is about to win a ring and yet Kobe fans want to believe 05-06 Kobe was a better player than 11-12 Lebron.

kind of voids their whole ring rhetoric

[thelucifer69]

kobe

better defender, way more clutch and the better scorer

:roll:

[magnax1]

I pretty much agree with Shaqattack's post. The only thing I don't agree with is that he said Kobe is a better one on one defender then Lebron. I'd say he played more consistent one on one defense from the 1st to the final final buzzer but I think Lebron's man defense is better by a good margin. He's had a pretty huge impact on quite a few players these past two years in the playoffs. Pierce, Granger, Melo, and Rose all would probably be considerably more efficient with almost anyone else guarding them, and I don't think Kobe was ever quite that good.

[PickernRoller]

This. Im not even a Kobe hater. But Lebron is the better player.

You're a Lebron dick rider, about the same. Anyways OP:facepalm .....also, use your real account...

[RazorBaLade]

:roll:

kobe had one of the most clutch endings to a game ever that year..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're a Lebron dick rider, about the same. Anyways OP:facepalm .....also, use your real account...

I'm not you kiddo. I only need one account to post on an NBA message board. :oldlol: Either discuss the topic at hand or take your lame accusations elsewhere.

[PickernRoller]

What's wrong with the topic? :oldlol:

I'm not you kiddo. I only need one account to post on an NBA message board.

Denial....anyway it's fun to watch your obsession with Kobe once in a while...you try to hide it but it eventually comes out. I gotta admit, you're not alone...so feel at ease with the other clowns.

Topic, what topic? Lebron vs. Kobe again? Done a million times, nothing new other than old arguments attached to new events. Troll post from a mile away.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Denial....anyway it's fun to watch your obsession with Kobe once in a while...you try to hide it but it eventually comes out.

:confusedshrug:

No one but you can talk about Kobe now?

[RazorBaLade]

kobe had one of the most clutch endings to a game ever that year..

referring to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

goosebumps man.......... what a game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Still not sure how this a troll post...

Don't click on threads you don't like. Problem solved. Not like anyone is forcing you to give your opinion anyway, Pinky. :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade, Dirk, and Lebron were better than Kobe in '06.

No they weren't. :facepalm Kobe went 45-35 when he played in '06, and Lebron's Cavs were only 47-32 in the East when he played.

Lebron was the better playmaker, but only averaged 1.2 more rpg and the same amount of offensive rebounds as a forward as Kobe did as a guard. Lebron actually did shoot well that year(his only pre'-09 season with a solid jumper before strangely regressing to a terrible shooter in '07 and a bad one in '08). Kobe was also a better defender in '06 than Lebron as Lebron was still a bad defender. Kobe had a clear advantage as a scorer as well.

Dirk was arguably at his best, but he was NOT as good as peak Kobe.

Wade would rank second for me in '06 due to his ECF and especially finals, and '06 was the year he started to show a pretty good mid-range game, especially in the playoffs, but Kobe was much more skilled and just better. Wade also benefited from Shaq's presence as Wade's FG% dropped from 51.6% in 54 games with Shaq to 44.7% in 21 games without him and went just 10-11 with Wade and without Shaq despite a great center filling in with Alonzo Mourning averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg as a starter.

Kobe was widely regarded as the best player in '06, I didn't have any doubts as to who the best player was in '06. I believe Gary Payton even called Kobe better that year, and he was Wade's teammate.


It's always a good read.

:cheers:

:cheers:


I've always felt that Kobe's 2002-03 season was right up there or perhaps his best. Maybe it was because I felt he could do really... anything that year, if you called him up for it. All-around play, scoring rampage, play great defense, shoot terrific from the perimeter, etc... you name it. I always felt that was a season he had to duplicate (though, there were some bad games in there too, but he usually more than made up for it).

I would go far as to say he deserved serious MVP talk... I really thought he played that good.

Well, '03 was the start of Kobe's true prime as he got stronger bulking up to 220, was at his athletic peak, added the 3 point range, showed better footwork and became craftier with pump fakes leading to the first extended example of his legendary streak scoring that we saw more of in '06 and '07.

Phil making Kobe essentially the first option in January also appeared to turn LA's season around as he went for 9 straight 40+ and 13 straight 35+ and the Lakers went 31-9 with Kobe and Shaq alternating as 1st option showing what Kobe could do as "the man" for the first time.

But I still think he lacked some maturity as we saw him shoot LA out of the Spurs series to some degree, a winnable series despite LA's injuries. If he has better shot selection LA may have 4peated.

And I disagree that Kobe's defense was great that year, he could still lock guys down when he wanted, but his effort already wasn't as consistent as the 3peat(especially 2000), or 2008 for that matter, and he gambled too much. Here's Phil Jackson's take on Kobe's defense around '03.


Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.

I'd probably rank Kobe's 2003 season 5th.

1.2006
2.2008
3.2007
4.2009
5.2003

'06 and '08 are VERY tough to choose, and '09 vs '03 is also tough. '03 was his first true prime year and '09 was his last, though he was top 3 as early as '01 and top 2 as late as '10.


Completly agree. Nash and Iverson were also better.

:wtf: No....just no. :facepalm


08-09 was his best season, IMO.

is '08 season was the same except with more athleticism and more consistent defense, so '08 was simply a better version of '09.

'09 was his most consistent playoff run, but facing Orlando was much easier than the '08 Celtics, particularly with Pau Gasol improving noticeably compared to '08.


Yeah, that was a great year by him as well.

"Kobe's moment", coined by SI, after winning a title. Definitely a year Kobe really brought out the best of his teammates too.

I thought he did an even better job getting the most out of his teammates in '08. That was without question his best as a facilitator, playmaker and leader, as well as his best in terms of game management.

It's no coincidence that pretty much every role player and shooter had a career year.

Kobe's second best as a playmaker/facilitator was the '01 playoffs, imo, which is amazing when you compare the growth from the first half of the '00-'01 season when he played the exact opposite to the '01 playoffs. The '01 playoffs are also up there with '08 as his best all around ball.


I pretty much agree with Shaqattack's post. The only thing I don't agree with is that he said Kobe is a better one on one defender then Lebron. I'd say he played more consistent one on one defense from the 1st to the final final buzzer but I think Lebron's man defense is better by a good margin. He's had a pretty huge impact on quite a few players these past two years in the playoffs. Pierce, Granger, Melo, and Rose all would probably be considerably more efficient with almost anyone else guarding them, and I don't think Kobe was ever quite that good.

Well, if you look at Kobe in 2000 for example, his on the ball defense was phenomenal, and he usually guard point guards back then as well. That was when he was the most motivated defensively asking guys like MJ, Payton and Eddie Jones for defensive tips in the offseason.

And can you think of a better perimeter defender than Kobe in '00? Maybe Pippen still was for his help defense, or maybe Eddie Jones.

But it's not easy to come up with a name, and that was what Kobe was capable of as far as man to man defense, he just wasn't as consistent when he started scoring more, particularly post-3peat.

[PickernRoller]

Still not sure how this a troll post.

Don't click on threads you don't like. Problem solved. Not like anyone is forcing you to give your opinion anyway, Pinky. :lol

Invited myself....crappy thread had to be pooped on.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Invited myself....crappy thread had to be pooped on.

:sleeping

Whatever makes you sleep at night, goofy texter.

[Tenchi Ryu]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1400851_o.gif
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[magnax1]

Well, if you look at Kobe in 2000 for example, his on the ball defense was phenomenal, and he usually guard point guards back then as well. That was when he was the most motivated defensively asking guys like MJ, Payton and Eddie Jones for defensive tips in the offseason.

And can you think of a better perimeter defender than Kobe in '00? Maybe Pippen still was for his help defense, or maybe Eddie Jones.

But it's not easy to come up with a name, and that was what Kobe was capable of as far as man to man defense, he just wasn't as consistent when he started scoring more, particularly post-3peat.
Well I was mostly talking about 12 Lebron vs 06 Kobe on defense.
I don't really disagree with any of that though. His defense was fantastic in 00, though I still think Lebron this year in terms of one on one D is better, especially when he really gives a full effort. I don't think Kobe could ever shut anyone down like Lebron did Rose last year, and that changed the outcome of that series. Though I don't feel like he's consistent with his defense game to game, or even possession to possession.
I guess there really isn't a fair comparison with Lebron's matchups, but I still feel like Kobe didn't have that impact.

[magnax1]

Wade would rank second for me in '06 due to his ECF and especially finals, and '06 was the year he started to show a pretty good mid-range game, especially in the playoffs, but Kobe was much more skilled and just better. Wade also benefited from Shaq's presence as Wade's FG% dropped from 51.6% in 54 games with Shaq to 44.7% in 21 games without him and went just 10-11 with Wade and without Shaq despite a great center filling in with Alonzo Mourning averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg as a starter.
Off topic, but this got me thinking. Has Wade's jumpshot not declined quite a bit these past couple years? Maybe my memory is failing me on this subject, but I certainly don't remember it being as bad as it is now.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well I was mostly talking about 12 Lebron vs 06 Kobe on defense.
I don't really disagree with any of that though. His defense was fantastic in 00, though I still think Lebron this year in terms of one on one D is better, especially when he really gives a full effort. I don't think Kobe could ever shut anyone down like Lebron did Rose last year, and that changed the outcome of that series. Though I don't feel like he's consistent with his defense game to game, or even possession to possession.
I guess there really isn't a fair comparison with Lebron's matchups, but I still feel like Kobe didn't have that impact.

Well, I guess 2000 was off topic to some degree, though I do think he had that same ability when he gave the effort through '09 or so. Kobe's performance in that NBC Sunday game vs Iverson was unforgettable, though in 2000. That was when he started getting a lot of his reputation as an elite defender. I was watching that game back then, and it remains one of my favorite Kobe games. Iverson was playing very well in the first half, iirc, and they switched Kobe onto him the 2nd half and Kobe held AI scoreless.

I guess I just wanted to give 2000 Kobe some credit for his defense. :oldlol: He wasn't in his prime yet, or a top 5 player, but at 21 years old, he became just the top shooting guard in the league, imo and arguably one of the game's 10 best players and the best perimeter defender.


Off topic, but this got me thinking. Has Wade's jumpshot not declined quite a bit these past couple years? Maybe my memory is failing me on this subject, but I certainly don't remember it being as bad as it is now.

You're 100% correct. Though Wade has only really been able to shoot in 2 1/2 seasons of his career, which is shocking for a perimeter player of his caliber.

As I said, he started making them with regularity in the 2006 season, but particularly the playoffs when his improved jumper started getting talked about. And he still had it before his injury in '07(which probably would've been his best season outside of '09 had he not been injured).

His entire game was obviously off in '08, and that included his jumper, but his mid-range game peaked in '09 and was very good, while he also became a capable 3 point shooter, he shot them decently enough to be a threat who could hit 4-5 in a game on a good night, and shot a great 3P% after the all-star break.

But strangely, he's fallen off greatly as a shooter since. '09 was quite easily Dwyane's best season, and he didn't even come close to following it up in '10. His mid-range jumper was flat out bad in '10, while he also showed up out of shape, started extremely slow and didn't give as consistent effort on defense as he did in '09, which also happened to be his peak defensive season.

In '11, he also didn't appear to have much of a jumper, and this year, his jumper has seemed flat out bad.

It's not even like one year, or an extended slump where he's not hitting jumpers, it's like he forgot how to shoot. For reference, here are Wade's mid-range shooting numbers from '06-present. I only included his pre-injury '07 statistics.

2006 (75 games)
10-15 ft: Made 0.9 per game, shot 36.6%
16-23 ft: Made 2.1, shot 39.6%

2007 pre-injury (45 games)
10-15 ft: Made 0.7, shot 40%
16-23 ft: Made 2.6, shot 38.9%

2008 (51 games)
10-15 ft: Made 1 per game, shot 40.6%
16-23 ft: Made 2.4 per game, shot 36.8%

2009 (79 games)
10-15 ft: Made 0.9 per game, shot 44.5%
16-23 ft: Made 3.2 per game, shot 41.6%

2010 (77 games)
10-15 ft: Made 0.9 per game, shot 35.3%
16-23 ft: Made 1.7 per game, shot 35.6%"

2011 (76 games)
10-15 ft: Made 0.7 per game, shot 35.9%
16-23 ft: Made 1.3 per game, shot 38.7%

2012 (49 games)
10-15 ft: Made 1 per game, shot 41.5%
16-23 ft: Made 1.3 per game, shot 35.8%

It's strange. But as it's turned out, Wade's second best season behind '09 will remain '06, which was just his 3rd season. How often does that happen? And it's because he hasn't been able to shoot consistently throughout his career.

I'd have also never imagined watching Wade his first 6 seasons and thought he'd have questionable motivation as he's had every year since '09 at times, whether it was his conditioning in the '10 season, his effort defensively the first few months of '11, or his overall game this year, not sure if it's just injuries and decline, but his effort hasn't seemed the same to me.