Anthropomorphic Measurement of NBA bigmen 60s/70s vs Modern NBA era

[CavaliersFTW]

Random measurements I've uncovered.

Bill Russell - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-9.63"
Wingspan: 7-4
Standing Reach w/o shoes: ~9-4
Hand Length: 10.5"
Hand Width: 9.5"
Career weight range: 215-240lbs

Wilt Chamberlain - Center
Height w/o shoes 7-1.06"
Wingspan 7-8
Standing Reach w/o shoes ~9-6
Hand Length 9.5"
Hand Width 11.5"
Career weight range: 258-320lbs

Walt Bellamy - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-10.5"
Career weight range: 225-245lbs

Jerry Lucas - Power Forward / Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-7.5"
Career weight range: 230-235lbs

Nate Thurmond - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-11"
Career weight range: 229-240lbs

Willis Reed - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-9.5"
Career weight range: 235-245lbs

Wes Unseld - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-7.5"
Career weight range: 245-260lbs

Elvin Hayes - Power Forward / Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-9.5"
Wingspan: 7-2"
Career weight range: 235-240lbs

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Center
Height w/o shoes: 7-1.88"
Wingspan: 7-5"
Career weight range: 225-267lbs

Dave Cowens - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-8.5"

Artis Gilmore - Center
Height w/o shoes: 7-1.31"
Career weight range: 240-290lbs



For comparison here's a random assortment of modern bigs height:

David Robinson
7-0"

Shaquille O'Neal
7-0.88"

Ben Wallace
6-7"

Tyson Chandler
6-11.5"

Carlos Boozer
6-7.75"

Dwight Howard
6-9"

Emeka Okafur
6-8.75"

Andrew Bynum
7-0.25"

Andrew Bogut
6-11

Kevin Love
6-7.75"

Javale McGee
6-11"

Joakim Noah
6-10.5"

DeAndre Jordan
6-9.75"

Tristan Thompson
6-7.75"

Bismack Biyombo
6-8.31"

Anthony Davis
6-9.25"

Andre Drummond
6-9.75"

Pau Gasol
7-0"

For more:
www.draftexpress.com/measurements


So are there people out there that still believe that the 60's/70's was an undersized era and that Russ/Wilt etc wouldn't last today due to their size because "the modern era is full of legit 7 footers"? List heights today appear to greatly inflate modern player heights. And I'm actually starting to believe the opposite was true of past player list heights (note: Russell, Hayes, Unseld all listed equal too or more than 1/2 inch shorter than their actual barefoot height - something that no players in the modern NBA draft have done)

[ZenMaster]

Today's era isn't filled with capable 7 footers. But what it is filled with is insanely athletic players from 6ft to 6-9 or so.

[PickernRoller]

Kwame Brown....

Season high 23pts/13 rebounds against the Heat in 11.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kwame Brown....

Season high 23pts/13 rebounds against the Heat in 11.

Kwame Brown - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-10"
Wingspan: 7-1"
Standing reach w/o shoes: 8-10.5"
Hand length: extremely small
Hand width: extremely small
Career weight range: 243lbs-270lbs

[Kevin_Gamble]

One thing that is true is we have those tall Eastern Europeans in the league today.

[CavaliersFTW]

One thing that is true is we have those tall Eastern Europeans in the league today.
Sure, it makes up for the now virtually extinct (yet genetically identical) numerous Caucasian American's of the 60's/70's. Such as Swede Halbrook ~7-3 / Phil Jackson ~ 6-8 etc. Seriously, when looking at true anthropomorphic measurements (not B.S. list heights) I see no pattern of players getting taller today vs then.

[Psileas]

At their heaviest, Bellamy, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and probably Hayes must have been heavier than these reported numbers.

[CavaliersFTW]

At their heaviest, Bellamy, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and probably Hayes must have been heavier than these reported numbers.
Those are the heaviest numbers I could find printed in the newspapers of all of them, they actually seem quite reasonable too me, players today are just heavier than players back than that's the one real difference and I think that's due to the pressure of trainers insisting players play heavier today (which I think kills players health but w/e). Javale McGee was 228lbs, Anthony Davis 222, Kevin Garnett under 220, and David Robinson 226 in their early 20's/rookie seasons. Kareem was a 225lb rookie and only 235 all throughout the 70's (though at one point I think he peaked at 240). In an era where running up and down the floor is favorable 240-260lbs players are huge. Had they played today they'd be heavier sure but unless there's seasons where they got overweight that I don't know about those numbers don't look too off base IMO relative to their competition.

[Punpun]

What you don take in considerations here, is that not only are you only taking an handful of C from back then (11 over a span of 30 years) but that you aren't considering that players nowadays are stronger, faster and are way more athletic than back then. On average of course but also at the very top. D12 and Shaq are on a whole another level physic wise than anyone. Bar maybe Wilt "I was born 40 years too soon" Chamberlain.

Not hating or anything on the oldschool era, but I refuse to believe Basketball's level of the contemporany era doesn't outclass the oldschool era. That's the evolution of the game.

[CavaliersFTW]

What you don take in considerations here, is that not only are you only taking an handful of C from back then (11 over a span of 30 years) but that you aren't considering that players nowadays are stronger, faster and are way more athletic than back then. On average of course but also at the very top. D12 and Shaq are on a whole another level physic wise than anyone. Bar maybe Wilt "I was born 40 years too soon".

11 random centers... Including Unseld who is well known as the shortest one of that entire era and excluding the tallest ones like Swede Halbrook. And are you absolutely clueless about who these guys are I listed? D12 and Shaq are no greater athletes by any definition of the word than Russell, Wilt, or Gilmore. And Thurmond/Bellamy/Kareem wouldn't take an athletic backseat to anybody Dwight faces :roll:


Russell
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/138/7/f/russdunkolympics_by_dantheman9758-d506gc1.gif

Thurmond
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz259/HolyGrailSports/1970s-NateThurmond.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/292xmra.jpg


Bellamy
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MhARdlGg1Vs/T02VnX5ZcRI/AAAAAAAADF0/MoZrZpaJvts/s640/490aa01c-282b-4dbc-b2c4-03dfff0f98f3_lg.jpg
fastbreak dunk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ee2Ag5GeMQ&t=12m56s

[Legends66NBA7]

Damn, Nate was on something back then... or really just ate his greens.

:oldlol:

[Punpun]

Oh god are you trying to imply those guys are only 11 eanoms center ? Do you really wanna go down that road ?

:yaohappy:

[CavaliersFTW]

Damn, Nate was on something back then... or really just ate his greens.

:oldlol:

I think it's genetics, some people are just naturally ripped, David Robinson was like that. Than you have the antithesis of them like Duncan/Pierce/Melo :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Oh god are you trying to imply those guys are only 11 eanoms center ? Do you really wanna go down that road ?

:yaohappy:

?

Not sure what road you speak of. Anthropomorphic measurements look very much the same today as they did back then. How can you dispute it? The numbers are right there in front of you, and I conclude the more I find the more it's only going to support that genetically, nothing has changed among athletes then vs now - sry if it kills your modern NBA hero's. Humans haven't evolved in 40 years. The game of basketball has changed in a lot of ways yes, but those athletes back then? Pretty sure those are still the same kinds of people in the same shapes and sizes and varieties as the ones that are playing today.

[Punpun]

No way. And for a good reason. Just look at track and field. Athlete now are way better than back then. And the 11 centers you listed were freaks of nature. 11 freaks in 30 years. Most of them would have normal size nowadays. And be less strong, less athletic etc.

[DCL]

"Bill Russell - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-9.63"
Wingspan: 7-4
Standing Reach w/o shoes: ~9-4
Hand Length: 10.5"
Hand Width: 9.5"
Career weight range: 215-240lbs"

durant's 235 and about the same height.

imagine durant playing center.

[CavaliersFTW]

No way. And for a good reason. Just look at track and field. Athlete now are way better than back then. And the 11 centers you listed were freaks of nature. 11 freaks in 30 years. Most of them would have normal size nowadays. And be less strong, less athletic etc.
:facepalm Whaaaaaat?

Please, I seriously would appreciate if you watched this and got back to me to tell me the guys I mentioned are "freaks". Look at Bill Bridges, and Zelmo Beaty and Leroy Ellis, and Gene Wiley and all the other centers playing in the league that I did not mention. Then consider that this footage is only the early/mid 60's, of 4 or 5 teams, from 5 or 6 games. Are these guys all freaks too? The guys I listed are simply the guys I found anthropomorphic measurements for, they are random and they include (as mentioned) Wes Unseld, the midget center of that era - far from a "freak" specimen aside from his low center of gravity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWVi0EtJcZg

[Punpun]

Are you still trying to argue Russel, Wilt, KAJ, to only cite them, are randoms C ? :oldlol:

It's funny how all athelte have volved much stronger, faster etc. in every single sports BUT BASKET. That is, according to you. And that's laughable. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

durant's 235 and about the same height.

imagine durant playing center.

1. Durant is a freak, no argument there.

2. Your numbers? False.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kevin-Durant-390/

And I do believe he put on at least 10lbs, but I don't think he weighs 235. That's how big David Robinson was in his prime. Durant is not that heavy, especially considering he's no where near the bulk Robinson was and Robinson was 7-0 barefoot, vs ~6-9-6-10 that Durant is (my guess is Durant grew to maybe 6-9.5)

[CavaliersFTW]

Are you still trying to argue Russel, Wilt, KAJ, to only cite them, are randoms C ? :oldlol:

It's funny how all athelte have volved much stronger, faster etc. in every single sports BUT BASKET. That is, according to you. And that's laughable. :oldlol:

Oh I'm sorry did I not include any analagous "freaks" from this own era on the very same post? Shaq? Biyombo? Howard? McGee? :roll: cry me a river dude

[Euroleague]

The "NBA has bigger players now" and "NBA has bigger players than Euroleague" crap is just all NBA marketing and propaganda.

It's not true. The Euroleague players are freaking taller than NBA players. Not to mention that the current NBA centers absolutely suck.

It's just NBA marketing.

[Psileas]

Those are the heaviest numbers I could find printed in the newspapers of all of them, they actually seem quite reasonable too me, players today are just heavier than players back than that's the one real difference and I think that's due to the pressure of trainers insisting players play heavier today (which I think kills players health but w/e). Javale McGee was 228lbs, Anthony Davis 222, Kevin Garnett under 220, and David Robinson 226 in their early 20's/rookie seasons. Kareem was a 225lb rookie and only 235 all throughout the 70's (though at one point I think he peaked at 240). In an era where running up and down the floor is favorable 240-260lbs players are huge. Had they played today they'd be heavier sure but unless there's seasons where they got overweight that I don't know about those numbers don't look too off base IMO relative to their competition.

I'll put it another way (to relate better to some competition from the same era): I find it hard to believe that Jerry Lucas at his heaviest was a measly 5 lbs lighter than Nate Thurmond at his heaviest or 10 lbs lighter than the heaviest Willis Reed, unless I missed some version of Lucas I never knew about. These are guys who were both taller and thicker than him.
Wes Unseld's weight seems more plausible, but Unseld was only a hair above 6'7.

[Euroleague]

What you don take in considerations here, is that not only are you only taking an handful of C from back then (11 over a span of 30 years) but that you aren't considering that players nowadays are stronger, faster and are way more athletic than back then. On average of course but also at the very top. D12 and Shaq are on a whole another level physic wise than anyone. Bar maybe Wilt "I was born 40 years too soon" Chamberlain.

Not hating or anything on the oldschool era, but I refuse to believe Basketball's level of the contemporany era doesn't outclass the oldschool era. That's the evolution of the game.

I hate to break it to you, but this is pure bull shit. Just like it's pure bull shit that NBA players are all bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than Euroleague players.

Anyone that believes this crap is a dumb ass.

It's just total bull shit that comes from NBA marketing and the sports media that has contracts with the NBA. People that believe this shit are morons.

Also, you seem to confuse "bigger and stronger" with more drug abuse. NBA players use drugs more now than they did in the 60s and 70s.

[Euroleague]

durant's 235 and about the same height.

imagine durant playing center.

Are you saying that you actually believe the NBA heights and weights are accurate?

Durant is in no way in hell 235 pounds.

[Punpun]

Cavalier, how does it feel to have the same opinion as Euroleague, the most obvious troll on insidehoops ? :yaohappy:

Ps : You have yet to address the fact that, according ot you, all athelte in EVERY sports got mot atheltic etc but in Bball.

[Euroleague]

Cavalier, how does it feel to have the same opinion as Euroleague, the most obvious troll on insidehoops ? :yaohappy

Ps : You have yet to address the fact that, according ot you, all athelte in EVERY sports got mot atheltic etc but in Bball.

You are a dumb ass.

Athletes have not all gotten more athletic. People that believe this really are stupid.

[PP34Deuce]

When peoplee mention West,Wilt, Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Russell, Unseld... They forget these guys were considered freaks in diff ways. West had borderline wingspan that a Rondo has! it was unheard of then.

Players are definitely longer on average. IF you were 6'6 in 1970s with a 6'10 Wingspan, it was CRAZY now you got 6'6 players with 7'1 wingspans

[CavaliersFTW]

When peoplee mention West,Wilt, Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Russell, Unseld... They forget these guys were considered freaks in diff ways. West had borderline wingspan that a Rondo has! it was unheard of then.

Players are definitely longer on average. IF you were 6'6 in 1970s with a 6'10 Wingspan, it was CRAZY now you got 6'6 players with 7'1 wingspans
False. I frequently come across other players in other articles or interviews who also had long wingspans regardless of their impact on the league. Such as John Havlicek, or Satch Sanders whom I've now read had a 7-1 wingspan (despite only being likely ~6-6 barefoot, an inch shorter than Scottie Pippen yet with the same armspan), Cousy is oft mentioned as having long arms and long fingers and he himself said "you've got to be some what of a freak to play this game", and Sam Jones and Satch Sanders were talking about some joe-blow roleplayer named Rudy Larusso for his long wingspan while re-watching one of their old finals games. And are we just going to forget about Phil Jackson too? The long wingspan prototype for good basketball players does not appear strictly reserved for the stars in the 60's at all, it actually appears to have been well established and randomly distributed in the 60's among all types of players including role players and bench warmers. Jerry West's wingspan is certainly noted nowadays but by no means does any material from that era paint the idea that he was some unheard of freak. In old articles/videos/interviews his wingspan is mentioned no more often than a variety of other players back then. I don't know where you people get your info about public perception of these guys - I seriously think most of you make it up in your imagination.

Watch my 1964/65 video I posted if you don't believe me. Jim King on the Lakers "perhaps the fastest guard in the league" (also, he dunks his footwork is :eek: and has very large hands and he's only 6-2). Leroy Ellis, "perhaps the fastest man in the league" also on the Lakers roster, he's ~6-10 and you can see in the footage the dude is a physical freak athlete. Yet both King and Ellis never amounted to anything beyond roleplayers. No, the stars of that era were not freaks above and beyond everyone else no more so than Dwight Howard could be considered a freak above and beyond Javale McGee... You can be a freak but not a star in the 1960's just like today. The variety of specimens in the 60's does not appear to measurably differ from the variety of specimens found in the game today.

[Lebron23]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1100470.1340349051!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg

[LBJFTW]

I hate to break it to you, but this is pure bull shit. Just like it's pure bull shit that NBA players are all bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than Euroleague players.

Anyone that believes this crap is a dumb ass.

It's just total bull shit that comes from NBA marketing and the sports media that has contracts with the NBA. People that believe this shit are morons.

Also, you seem to confuse "bigger and stronger" with more drug abuse. NBA players use drugs more now than they did in the 60s and 70s.

:oldlol: No one is talking about Euroleague players. This is a comparison between modern era NBA vs the past NBA, yet somehow you manage to slip in Euroleague agenda. I love it!

[CavaliersFTW]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1100470.1340349051!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg
and?

[CavaliersFTW]

I'll put it another way (to relate better to some competition from the same era): I find it hard to believe that Jerry Lucas at his heaviest was a measly 5 lbs lighter than Nate Thurmond at his heaviest or 10 lbs lighter than the heaviest Willis Reed, unless I missed some version of Lucas I never knew about. These are guys who were both taller and thicker than him.
Wes Unseld's weight seems more plausible, but Unseld was only a hair above 6'7.
It's possible, I'm only going by the recorded info I've turned up - if you've got a hunch there's some wider gaps or variation in their weights I'm sure it's possible that they peaked slightly higher and I'm missing it. The gist of what I'm getting at though, is that there really doesn't appear to be any measurable size differences of bigmen then vs bigmen now (specifically I mean length/height), the exact same size players are being drafted today - they just are getting listed taller.

[WillC]

Random measurements I've uncovered.

Bill Russell - Center
Height w/o shoes: 6-9.63"
Wingspan: 7-4
Standing Reach w/o shoes: ~9-4
Hand Length: 10.5"
Hand Width: 9.5"
Career weight range: 215-240lbs

In an interview at the 2009 All-Star Game, Bill Russell said he started his career at 215lb and ended it at 228lb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCFm8RRTjYQ

2 minutes 10 seconds onwards.

[CavaliersFTW]

In an interview at the 2009 All-Star Game, Bill Russell said he started his career at 215lb and ended it at 228lb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCFm8RRTjYQ

2 minutes 10 seconds onwards.

Yeah, I've posted that video on this site before. When he mentions 228 I believe he's referring to the end of that final season after being played into shape. Months prior I have an article about him entering that final season 10lbs overweight after vacationing in Hollywood all summer (and his playing weight from '66-'69 was an otherwise steady 230 just like the 228 alludes too). Also, when Russell was fully healthy, and in his prime in the earlier 60's - his body mass was oft printed between 222-225lbs. In his first few seasons it is printed between 215-218lbs.

[32jazz]

No way. And for a good reason. Just look at track and field. Athlete now are way better than back then. And the 11 centers you listed were freaks of nature. 11 freaks in 30 years. Most of them would have normal size nowadays. And be less strong, less athletic etc.


Humans haven't improved that much (if any ) athletically since the 60's idiot. Maybe training,techniques & equipment have improved ,but not humans.

And you really gonna used dope infested track & field to make your point?

Ask todays long jumpers about inferior 60's athlete's like Bob Beamon whom they can't touch.


Jim Hines 1960's world record in the 100 meter was safe until the 80's & most sprinters breaking the record since then have been proven to be dopeheads.

Hines wr 1968

Calvin Smith wr 1983(clean more than likely)

Ben Johnson 1988 wr(steroids)


Mo Greene's (admits to buying drugs but not using them:oldlol: )

Tim Montgomery(busted / steroids)

Justin Gatlin ( busted)

Linford .Christie(dope head)

That's just a few wr holders & champions


Females

Marion Jones admits to 8 years of passed test while she was doping

Flo Jo never failed ,but looked like a Transvestite with very suspicious improvements

Evelyn Ashford (1983) is probably still the 'clean' women's record over 30 years ago.


Bob Beamon says shtfu:facepalm

[Punpun]

Are you trying to say The runner of now are doped ? I sure hop you can back that up. Aka, your rant is so not pertinent it's freaking funny you believe you succeeded in proving something.

:yaohappy:

[AAckley1]

Are you trying to say The runner of now are doped ? I sure hop you can back that up. Aka, your rant is so not pertinent it's freaking funny you believe you succeeded in proving something.

:yaohappy:

I dunno how familiar you think you are with Elite level track & field but almost all the sprinters use steroids or PEDs in one way or another. Do you really think Shawn Crawford doesn't run any events between Olympic qualifiers to simply rest? He must have got his body to look like that via hard work & lots of Gatoraide huh?

International Track & Field is essentially 90s baseball & has been since the early 80s.

[PistolPete44]

punpun = ****tard

[Punpun]

So many butthurt guys. I'm still waiting for your concrete proof of what you are blaberring. ELse it's just libel.

[bwink23]

So many butthurt guys. I'm still waiting for your concrete proof of what you are blaberring. ELse it's just libel.


What are you talking about?? Ben Johnson was busted for roids in the late 80's, and Marion Jones had to give back her gold medals and was fined until she was broke. Florence Griffith Joyner was always suspected cuz she went from average sprinter to top of the food chain in a heartbeat and became ripped as hell. Let's throw Lance Armstrong in there as well.

Are you this naive?? :hammerhead:

[bwink23]

So many butthurt guys. I'm still waiting for your concrete proof of what you are blaberring. ELse it's just libel.


Here is a good read for you:

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/track_and_field/

Time to get your head out of the sand.

[Punpun]

Libel. Libel everywhere. And that's a strawman too. As roids or not, the perf are better.

[bwink23]

Libel. Libel everywhere. And that's a strawman too. As roids or not, the perf are better.


Read the article. It's not libel when the athletes are routinely failing drug tests. :rolleyes:

[bwink23]

Libel. Libel everywhere. And that's a strawman too. As roids or not, the perf are better.


So libel, Justin Gatlin was banned for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/11/AR2010051103527.html

:coleman:

[jlauber]

Meanwhile...here is what Bob Hayes had to deal with in the '64 Olympics...


First, he won the 100m and broke the current World Record in the 100 m with a time of 10.06 seconds, even though he was running in lane 1 which had, the day before, been used for the 10 km racewalk and this badly chewed up the cinder track. He also was running in borrowed spikes because one of his shoes had been kicked under the bed when he was playing with some friends and he didn't realize until he got there

[bwink23]

Meanwhile...here is what Bob Hayes had to deal with in the '64 Olympics...

He may have well ran faster than that if modern timing devices were in place back then.

[Punpun]

Oh my god. You guys are mentals. :yaohappy:

This just in. A ****** who couldn't even breka the 10s was actually better than Bolt.

:yaohappy:

[jlauber]

Oh my god. You guys are mentals. :yaohappy:

This just in. A ****** who couldn't even breka the 10s was actually better than Bolt.

:yaohappy:

Put Bolt in the same circumstances...with shoes that don't fit, and on a track with trenches in it, and let's see him run a 9.59.

[jlauber]

BTW, (and 32Jazz mentioned this already)...

Bob Beamon long jumped 29' 2" in 1968. That mark stood until Mike Powell barely broke it in 1991, with a leap of 29' 4"...

which is STILL the record TODAY.

So, in 44 years we have seen the long jump record increase by TWO INCHES (and that was set over 20 years ago.)

[bwink23]

Oh my god. You guys are mentals. :yaohappy:

This just in. A ****** who couldn't even breka the 10s was actually better than Bolt.

:yaohappy:


Bolt is NOT the norm, he is the exception. Just like Bob Beamon was when he set the long jump record that stood for 20+ years until Powell ( an early 1990's long jumper) broke it, and i believe it still stands.

:biggums:

[Punpun]

You guys are trolls. This discussion proves it. You might be some of the greatest troll out there. Dat ****ing routine. :yaohappy:

[bwink23]

Oh my god. You guys are mentals. :yaohappy:

This just in. A ****** who couldn't even breka the 10s was actually better than Bolt.

:yaohappy:

Name me a better sprinter/long jumper than Carl Lewis was in the 80's....

:coleman:

[Punpun]

The 80's were 20 years after the 60's. :yaohappy:

[jlauber]

Put peak Bob Hayes or Jimmy Hines in 00's, give them the best nutrition, medicine, medical technology (to prevent and overcome injuries), with much better techniques and training that have been learned in the last 50 years, with better and lighter shoes, and MUCH better track surfaces...and does anyone think they would still be running 9.95's?

[bwink23]

The 80's were 20 years after the 60's. :yaohappy:


Is this the first time you've heard of Bullet Bob Hayes??

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

The 80's were 20 years after the 60's. :yaohappy:

And here we are in 2012, 24 years since Carl Lewis's prime, and their still isn't a better olympic athlete than he was.

Just like there isn't a better 2-guard than Jordan, or point guard than Magic, or a more skilled center than Hakeem.

:coleman:

[jlauber]

Is this the first time you've heard of Bullet Bob Hayes??

:confusedshrug:

And to add to that...

Hayes ran a 10.06 100 meters in 1964. Which is STILL the fastest EVER by a LEGITIMATE NFL player.

Darrell Green, in the early 80's, ran a 10.08. (Incidently, and as a sidenote...Green just turned 50 a few months ago...and promptly went out and ran, get this... a 4.43 40!)

[bwink23]

And to add to that...

Hayes ran a 10.06 100 meters in 1964. Which is STILL the fastest EVER by a LEGITIMATE NFL player.

Darrell Green, in the early 80's, ran a 10.08. (Incidently, and as a sidenote...Green just turned 50 a few months ago...and promptly went out and ran, get this... a 4.43 40!)

Green in is prime has the next fastest time to Bo Jackson in the 40-yard dash ( an 80's athlete)...ridiculous 4.1 range.

but the athletes back then sucked and are inferior...:facepalm

That why a Nolan Ryan (pitched in the 60's) could throw a high 90's fastball for 27 years in eras without pitch counts and were required to FINISH THE GAME. Relievers were used only if his arm was ready to fall off.

While today's fast ballers tear their arms up in a matter of a few years....but today's athletes are better....:facepalm

[Punpun]

Guys, seriously. Please tell me either by MP or her ethat you trolling. Else, I'd be truly worried about your mental health state. I'm asking you man to man. Eyes to eyes.

[bwink23]

Guys, seriously. Please tell me either by MP or her ethat you trolling. Else, I'd be truly worried about your mental health state. I'm asking you man to man. Eyes to eyes.


Just exposing how incredible ignorant you are to great athletes of the past.

Next you're gonna tell me you've never heard of Bo Jackson too right?? :oldlol:

[Punpun]

Bwink, Drop the trolling act for 2s, I have yet to directly address one of your "points" as you didn't do it either. Man to man, eyes to eyes, can you write you aren't trying to troll me ? I shan't believe you.

[bwink23]

Bwink, Drop the trolling act for 2s, I have yet to directly address one of your "points" as you didn't do it either. Man to man, eyes to eyes, can you write you aren't trying to troll me ? I shan't believe you.

you shant believe what exactly?? :confusedshrug:

Everything stated is FACTUAL....point out what is not factual.

:coleman:

[Punpun]

Thankyou. That freaking routine. You should sell it to Skip and SAS.

:yaohappy:

[bwink23]

Thankyou. That freaking routine. You should sell it to Skip and SAS.

:yaohappy:


You didn't answer my question.

What did you not see as factual?

:biggums:

[B]

an

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=B

[CavaliersFTW]

I also found the use of the word curious. It didn't seem that he actually knew what the word meant.
Are you guys kidding? That word is absolutely being used correctly and yes I understand what it means. Type Anthropomorphic measurements in google and tell me what kinds of things come up.

[abuC]

Do you dudes drive around in 1960s Studebakers as well?


Every once in a while these threads are cool, but got damn, do you dudes only talk about the 60s and 70s, we get it people were vastly superior 40 and 50 years ago.

[CavaliersFTW]

Do you dudes drive around in 1960s Studebakers as well?


Every once in a while these threads are cool, but got damn, do you dudes only talk about the 60s and 70s, we get it people were vastly superior 40 and 50 years ago.

You don't get it

[abuC]

You don't get it


No, actually I do get it, every single week there's a new "Wilt" thread or some thread showcasing that not everyone in the 60s was a stiff. Big deal, the cream rises to the top, the median then and now is not the same and your posts never point that out. The "average" athlete then and now are not comparable, but keep pushing your agenda.

[CavaliersFTW]

No, actually I do get it, every single week there's a new "Wilt" thread or some thread showcasing that not everyone in the 60s was a stiff. Big deal, the cream rises to the top, the median then and now is not the same and your posts never point that out. The "average" athlete then and now are not comparable, but keep pushing your agenda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-obhfBnB4

U sure? :lol

[Psileas]

No, actually I do get it, every single week there's a new "Wilt" thread or some thread showcasing that not everyone in the 60s was a stiff. Big deal, the cream rises to the top, the median then and now is not the same and your posts never point that out.

There are lots and lots of posters who actually still don't get it. And no, there are better purposes for some of these threads. Once in a while, there's some new footage becoming available for actual Wilt/retro fans, so, no, not everything revolves around idiots and know-nothings who won't recognise simple things - we'll still have a good sleep.
If "the cream rises to the top, the median then and now is not the same" was the only thing that mattered, there would be no reason to keep the NBA's recorded history at all.


Are you guys kidding? That word is absolutely being used correctly and yes I understand what it means. Type Anthropomorphic measurements in google and tell me what kinds of things come up.

I've also seen the word used in measurement context, but I'll argue that "anthropometric" is more correct.

It depends on the type of measurement, though: A foot is both an anthropometric and an anthropomorphic measurement, because it's also a part of the human body. A cm is only anthropometric.

[noosaman]

OP doesn't seem to know what anthropomorphic means.

[Linspired]

i do believe NBA has much more athletes right now than back in 60's to early 70's. however the difference between mid 80's to now is probably very slim.

And at the end of the day it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. IMO, there were more tough guys back then.

[Linspired]

Put peak Bob Hayes or Jimmy Hines in 00's, give them the best nutrition, medicine, medical technology (to prevent and overcome injuries), with much better techniques and training that have been learned in the last 50 years, with better and lighter shoes, and MUCH better track surfaces...and does anyone think they would still be running 9.95's?

i would guess they would run 9.8 ish. but no way in hell they will run 9.58 and be near the record. and i don't think nutrition helps that much. it's not like they were starved.

talent level will always rise if the money is there and population continues to grow.

[Linspired]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1100470.1340349051!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg


let's not go there. Bill Russell is 78 old grandpa. and russell is actually clearly taller. Russell most like lost 1 1/2 inch of his height. he has shrunk again compared to last year.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m63cegeFc71r4jroto1_500.jpg

Bron seems like he isn't full 6ft 8.
http://www.pristineauction.com/images/auctions/0/3694/main_2.JPG
http://www.nbaarena.com/img/haberler/usa_national_basketball_team_2012.jpg

boozer was measured at 6ft 7 3/4. i think tayshaun prince was not officially measured but he is indeed between 6ft 8 - 6ft 8 1/2 because he was clearly shorter than sheed and webber.

[Linspired]

BTW, (and 32Jazz mentioned this already)...

Bob Beamon long jumped 29' 2" in 1968. That mark stood until Mike Powell barely broke it in 1991, with a leap of 29' 4"...

which is STILL the record TODAY.

So, in 44 years we have seen the long jump record increase by TWO INCHES (and that was set over 20 years ago.)


long jump is notable for several of the longest-standing world records. my guess is that there is a limit to how far we can jump. jesse owens record stood for like 25 years. it gets broken every 25 years or so. lol

but that doesn't change the fact that 'speed' of the game is much faster right now then back in 60's.

[Linspired]

Put Bolt in the same circumstances...with shoes that don't fit, and on a track with trenches in it, and let's see him run a 9.59.

no doubt hayes will be an elite sprinter in any era, but he won't be shaving .48 sec even with all the nutrients, training, and new pair of shoes. and old

bolt is just a freak who is way way ahead of his time. i thought 9.5s would happen in 2030 or so. he is just a freak of nature.

[Linspired]

hey cav do you have measurement on

Ralph Sampson
Dikembe Mutombo


I believe both are 7ft 1 range. no?

[magnax1]

I think Ralph Sampson was a legit 7'2, but I can't say for certain. Pretty crazy considering he was basically the PF for Houston once Hakeem came in.

[jlauber]

no doubt hayes will be an elite sprinter in any era, but he won't be shaving .48 sec even with all the nutrients, training, and new pair of shoes. and old

bolt is just a freak who is way way ahead of his time. i thought 9.5s would happen in 2030 or so. he is just a freak of nature.

I agree about Bolt...which is precisely my point. The AVERAGE athlete is better today, than they were 10-20-30-40-50 years ago. MARGINALLY better. And 30 years from now, they will be MARGINALLY better than what we see today.

Having said that, though, there are these "freaks" who pop up every generation, or so. Look at Shaq. 7-1, 325-350 lbs, with exceptional athleticism, and in his prime, even amazing endurance. He was at his peak in 2000, or so. Where are the new Shaq's?

Then go back to Chamberlain. The fact is, there has not been anyone even remotely close to his size, strength, and athletcism, INCLUDING Shaq. IN his era, Wilt was considered not only the strongest basketball player, but among the strongest ATHLETES in the WORLD. Many here today scoff at the notion that Wilt could bench 500+ lbs, but just google his strength. Why is the internet just plastered with these accounts (even eye-witness one's), which credit him wiith that feat...and yet, there are virtually NO legitimate claims to DISPUTE them?

Speed? A case could be made that Wilt may very well have been the fastest basketball player of all-time. Here again, the "ESPN generation" posters will laugh at anyone who suggests such a thing. BUT, think about this...he was a SPRINTER on KU's 4x100 team. And Wilt, himself, claimed to have run a 4.4 40. Now before anyone jumps in and rips that comment as some kind of "embellishment" on Chamberlain's part, ... Wilt was timed in a 4.6 40 in the mid-60's, at age 27, and at 290 lbs, by none other than Hank Stram. Now, does a 22 year old Wilt, at around 250-260 lbs, running a 4.4 seem so unbelieveable?

Leaping ability? Recently Sports Science ran an episode in which Dwight Howard supposedly broke Shaq's "record" by an NBA player, which was a leap that reached 12' 5", with one of 12' 6". Pretty amazing for a 6-10 leaper. HOWEVER, there are at least two eye-witness accounts of Wilt touching the top of the backboard (not to mention that Wilt, himself, claims such a feat.) One was by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico. Here again, though, many of the current generation just laughed that off as a joke. BUT, we have solid footage of Wilt blocking a shot, in a leap in which he has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start like Howard in that episode), and blocks it with his off-hand...and with his fingertips within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. Not only that, but we also have footage of a 34 year old Chamberlain, at 300+ lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, again blocking a shot, and in the same circumstances (no time to react, and going straight up) in which his fingertips are above the top of the square (and probably close to 12'.)

Not only that, but we have video footage (of what was a COMMON occurance) in which an old Chamberlain blocks TWO straight Kareem sky-hooks...in the AIR (not while still in his hand.) Incidently, there are a known 29 Chamberlain blocks of Kareem's shots (obviously many of them "sky-hooks") and in just SIX of their 28 H2H games (as well as another account of NUMEROUS blocks.) Given the fact that the two went H2H 28 times, there is a good chance that Chamberlain probably blocked some 50 "unblockable" sky-hooks in his career.

Then, there is a video taped conversation, with none other than Tex Winter, who claims to have witnessed a high school Wilt, with three steps from behind the FT line, dunking the ball with a leap from behind the FT line. He was so stunned, that he engineered the rule that prevented the dunking of FTs, as he said, because of "freakish activity."

Finally, Wilt's college coach, Phog Allen, rolled out a 12 ft. basket back in the 50's, and there are accounts of Wilt dunking on it (of course, including Wilt himself.) There are those today who can dunk on a 12 ft. rim, but they are world class leapers.

There were other great NBA athletes in the 60's and 70's, as well. Bill Russell was ranked seventh in the WORLD in the high-jump in the 50's. Gus Johnson made a leap, withg multiple eye-witnesses in attendance, in which he touched a nail, in 1963, that only Joey Johnson could duplicate some 25 years later. Joey Johnson? Google him. He was 6-4 and could get his chin above the rim, and was credited with a 50+" vertical. Hell, you can go back to the late 40's, when Jim Pollard, who was 6-4 and white, was known to have been dunking a ball with a running leap from behind the FT line.

I have already presented the fact that Bob Hayes is still the fastest legitimate NFL football player of all-time. He ran a 10.06 100 meters in the mid-60's. And, as Bwink mentioned, Darrell Green and Bo Jackson, who were at their peaks in the 80's, were running sub 4.2 40's (as was Deion Sanders.) And 6-2 220 lb. Hershel Walker was a WORLD CLASS sprinter in the 80's, (as was OJ Simpson in the 60's.)

Who hit the longest HRs ever measured? None other than 5-11 190 lb. Mickey Mantle. And he hit MANY 500+ ft. HRs, as well. Just google him. There has never been anyone else, including a PED-enhanced McGwire, who could a ball as far. And Nolan Ryan was clocked at 101 MPH, on his 162nd pitch, in a game in 1974...by a SLOW gun. There is an article which claims that Ryan's fastest pitches would be measured at around 107 MPH with the faster radar guns used today. My god, at age 46, and on an injured arm, his LAST pitch was clocked at 98 MPH. And there were many who would claim that the unknown Steve Dalkowski, who was laboring in the minors in the 50's and 60's, was the fastest pitcher of all-time (just google him.)

The bottom line is that why virtually every generation becomes bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic, it is by only MARGINAL amounts. And, clearly, there have been these athletic "freaks" that only come around every 25-50 years, as well.

[Punpun]

Now I'm 100% sure Jlaube is actually clowning some other user. No way you spent all that time writing that totally hs post.

[millwad]

The bottom line is that why virtually every generation becomes bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic, it is by only MARGINAL amounts. And, clearly, there have been these athletic "freaks" that only come around every 25-50 years, as well.

True, but still it's a fact that there's a huge difference in terms of athleticism in the '60's compared to today.

[jlauber]

True, but still it's a fact that there's a huge difference in terms of athleticism in the '60's compared to today.

It depends on the sport. Clearly the average football player is much bigger, and overall, slightly faster. We have 350 lb. linemen, and even QBs in the 260 lb range (as well as QBs running 4.3 40's today.)

And there are some track events in which the differences are considerable. The high-jump is a great example. BUT, the TECHNIQUES, as well as the SURFACES are much different. Hell, a guy would have broken his back or neck doing the "Fosbury Flop" in the 50's, with the landing areas that existed back then.

And of course the pole vault, with much better equipment, is considerably higher.

I recall a couple of years ago, that swimming records were being smashed because of the body suits, too.

But, here again, the SPEED of the fastest NFL players is nowhere near it's peak in today's NFL. Chris Johnson would be smoked by Hershel Walker, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, and Bob Hayes. There were players like Travis Williams, Henry Childs, and OJ in the 60's, as well, as Cliff Branch, and the Cardinals Mel Gray in the 70's, who would be the fastest NFL players today.

And I mentioned Mickey Mantle, but there were other's too. There is footage of Reggie Jackson's '71 All-Star game shot on YouTube. Willie Stargell, Frank Howard (who was 6-8 and 250 lbs in the 60's), Willie McCovey, and Harmon Killebrew, were smashing "tape-measure" bombs in the 60's, too. Even Lou Brock, who was never known as a HR hitter, hit a monster shot out of the Polo Grounds.

Ryan may very well have been the hardest thrower of all-time, but again, just google Steve Dalkowski (as a sidenote, "The Wild Thing" from the movie Major League, was supposedly based on either Dalkowski, or Ryne Duran.) And supposedly Bob Feller would have been measured at over 100 with a modern gun. Even Sandy Koufax, who I believe was estimated in the high 90's, was deceptive. He had to SLOW down his fastbasll to control it.

In any case, if you really examine the sport, and take into account advances in equipment, training, and medical technology, there is probably very little differences in performances in the last 50+ years.

[jlauber]

long jump is notable for several of the longest-standing world records. my guess is that there is a limit to how far we can jump. jesse owens record stood for like 25 years. it gets broken every 25 years or so. lol

but that doesn't change the fact that 'speed' of the game is much faster right now then back in 60's.

I don't think there is ANY evidence that suggests that the "speed of the game is much faster right now." This past season the NBA averaged 96.3 ppg. In the 60's, it was between 112 to 119 ppg. And take a look at the footage of the NBA in the 80's, too (particularly Laker highlights.)

[millwad]

It depends on the sport. Clearly the average football player is much bigger, and overall, slightly faster. We have 350 lb. linemen, and even QBs in the 260 lb range (as well as QBs running 4.3 40's today.)



Obviously.



And there are some track events in which the differences are considerable. The high-jump is a great example. BUT, the TECHNIQUES, as well as the SURFACES are much different. Hell, a guy would have broken his back or neck doing the "Fosbury Flop" in the 50's, with the landing areas that existed back then.



Obviously.



And of course the pole vault, with much better equipment, is considerably higher.



Obviously.



I recall a couple of years ago, that swimming records were being smashed because of the body suits, too.


Yes, it almost ruined the sport, they banned them now.
But now when the body suits are gone, they still swim way faster than what they did decades ago, especially compared to the 60's...



But, here again, the SPEED of the fastest NFL players is nowhere near it's peak in today's NFL. Chris Johnson would be smoked by Hershel Walker, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, and Bob Hayes. There were players like Travis Williams, Henry Childs, and OJ in the 60's, as well, as Cliff Branch, and the Cardinals Mel Gray in the 70's, who would be the fastest NFL players today.


Walker played in the 80's and 90's, Deion reitred 7 years ago, Jackson played in the late 80's and so did Green. Hayes was beyond amazing. Not too aware of NFL to make any comments regarding it but you started off with naming modern era players.


I'm sure that the modern players are more athletic compared to the players of the 60's.



And I mentioned Mickey Mantle, but there were other's too. There is footage of Reggie Jackson's '71 All-Star game shot on YouTube. Willie Stargell, Frank Howard (who was 6-8 and 250 lbs in the 60's), Willie McCovey, and Harmon Killebrew, were smashing "tape-measure" bombs in the 60's, too. Even Lou Brock, who was never known as a HR hitter, hit a monster shot out of the Polo Grounds.


You mention certain events and player, I mean overall. In the NBA they had freaks like Chamberlain and Russell who would be just as freaky in terms of being athletic compared to modern players but that's not my point. My point is that overall players are more athletic in the modern era of sports compared to what they used to be in the 60's.



In any case, if you really examine the sport, and take into account advances in equipment, training, and medical technology, there is probably very little differences in performances in the last 50+ years.

Sure thing, I've never denied that the modern era players have better equipment, better way of practice and medical technology. But it's still a fact if you compare the players of the 60's to the one's we got today, that the modern era players are far more athletic.

[millwad]

Now I'm 100% sure Jlaube is actually clowning some other user. No way you spent all that time writing that totally hs post.

Can't confirm it but I've heard that Jlauber copy and pastes alot of stuff from other sites and then makes them his own by editing them some.

[jlauber]

Unfortunately, there is very little footage of Gus Johnson in the 60's, when he was at his peak athleticism. Here is some footage of Johnson late in his career, and with bad knees...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkzRjMC1ZpI

What is noteworthy, though, was his excellent shooting range of 15-18 ft. I bring that up because he was a BEAST in his prime. Walt Frazier mentions it in that video, but Gus shattered THREE backboards in his career. He was 6-6 and around 230 lbs.

And I have posted this before, but for those that may not have read it...

http://www.cornerclubmoscow.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=2


When Johnson played at Idaho in 1963, he already had a reputation as a leaper of the highest order. One evening at the Corner Club, a local tavern on Main Street in Moscow, Johnson was requested by owner Herm Goetz to display his rare ability to the patrons. The Corner Club was a very modest establishment, converted from a white-stuccoed small chapel in the 1940s with hardwood floors and a beamed ceiling. From a standing start near the bar, Johnson touched a spot on a beam 11'6" (3.505 m) above the floor. This spot was ceremoniously marked with a nail by Goetz, who then proudly proclaimed that anyone who could duplicate the feat could drink for free. A 40-inch (1.016 m) diameter circle was painted on the floor, and both feet had to start inside the circle to ensure a standing start. A full 23 years went by with many attempts at Gus Johnson's Nail, including Bill Walton in the summer of 1984, but there were no successes.

That was until 1986, when the College of Southern Idaho basketball team from Twin Falls stopped in town in January on their way to a game against NIC in Coeur d'Alene. Joey Johnson, a younger brother of then NBA star Dennis Johnson, was brought into the Corner Club for a try. The 6'3" (1.905 m) guard had a 48" (1.219 m) vertical leap and could put his chin on a basketball rim (10 feet (3.048 m)) with a running start.

Johnson laced up his shoes and touched the nail on his first try but was disqualified because he did not start with both feet inside the 40-inch circle. The next attempt came from a legal static start but was just a bit short. On his third try, Johnson grabbed and bent the legendary nail, a landmark event in Vandal sports history. Goetz pulled the nail out of the beam and pounded it back in, a half inch (13 mm) higher.



So, here is what we know...Gus was a full 6-6, 230 lbs, and had a vertical of somewhere around 45+".

Then, take a look at the video footage of his SKILLS above.

And yet, he was a career 17 ppg, 13 rpg, .440 shooter. His career high in scoring was 20.7 ppg, and late in his career (and on bad knees) he averaged 17 rpg. And, in the mid-60's he was shooting as low as .413.

So, here was an athletic MONSTER, with solid SKILLS...and yet, how come he wasn't putting up 30-20 seasons on the "unathletic" players of the 60's?

[jlauber]

Walker played in the 80's and 90's, Deion reitred 7 years ago, Jackson played in the late 80's and so did Green. Hayes was beyond amazing. Not too aware of NFL to make any comments regarding it but you started off with naming modern era players.


I'm sure that the modern players are more athletic compared to the players of the 60's.

Green was running 10.08 100 meters in 1983. Walker ran a 9.2 100 yard dash in high school in 1979. Jackson was running world-class 60 meter times in the mid-80's. I have also mentioned it previously, but Green, at age 50, went out an ran a 4.43! Think about that...how many NFL players, TODAY, can run a legit 4.43? It is not very many. In any case, he was supposedly clocked at a 4.15 in his prime...and some 30 years ago.

[Colbertnation64]

damn son, russell was crazy athletic.

[Colbertnation64]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1100470.1340349051!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/s1Tlm.jpg

DWIGHT HOWARD COULDNT PLAY TODAY DOE

[Linspired]

I don't think there is ANY evidence that suggests that the "speed of the game is much faster right now." This past season the NBA averaged 96.3 ppg. In the 60's, it was between 112 to 119 ppg. And take a look at the footage of the NBA in the 80's, too (particularly Laker highlights.)

i wasn't talking the pace of the game. i believe athlete's game speed has gotten so much faster. just look at the NFL. i love watching old school 60's packers or even mid 70's steelers football. the game speed has gained tremendously. It became so fast and violent that now they are turning the sports i love to a flag football. yes, the game speed beteen 80's and today are pretty much the same, but 50's and 60's? NBA was in an infant stage back then, and they just didn't have a big enough talent pool yet.

i think it's important that we shouldn't just handpick elite vs. elite. Wilt is a freak in any era for sure. Russell would no doubt be a DPOY in any era. but you gotta look at the entire league vs. entire league, and when you take a close look, the big noticeable difference isn't in players height, but in players game speed in more weight they carry. it's kinda like in NFL where the players height has been stabilized(except QBs), yet player's weight continues to grow.

[Linspired]

http://i.imgur.com/s1Tlm.jpg

DWIGHT HOWARD COULDNT PLAY TODAY DOE

bad angle shot is bad angle shot. go look at 2 pictures i posted in previous pages. Dwight clearly has couple of inches on bron. I don't believe Bron grew since he came into the league, but i believe dwight might have gained 1/2 inch, so he is probably upto 6ft 9 1/2. He is very close to 6ft 10 1/4 bosh in many pics i've seen with very good angles.

[Linspired]

Green was running 10.08 100 meters in 1983. Walker ran a 9.2 100 yard dash in high school in 1979. Jackson was running world-class 60 meter times in the mid-80's. I have also mentioned it previously, but Green, at age 50, went out an ran a 4.43! Think about that...how many NFL players, TODAY, can run a legit 4.43? It is not very many. In any case, he was supposedly clocked at a 4.15 in his prime...and some 30 years ago.

Green is a freak no doubt. but 4.43 unofficial time and 4.43 at the combine are totally different. those players who runs disappointing 4.5 ish at the combine shows up in proday and shaves at least .05 to .1sec. virtually every top high school NFL prospect runs sub 4.4 hand timed. but 4 years later, after they become bigger and faster somehow runs disappointing 40 dash.

and no way 50 year old green runs legit 4.43. ianything under 4.45 is considered very good. only 5 CB prospect in this year's NFL combine ran 4.45 or below.

i have easier time believing Hayes would run 9.6 if he lived in this generation.

since 1999, there were 14 official 4.3 or below. and 2 fastest college 100m track star jacoby ford and trindon holiday ran 4.28 & 4.29. i believe their record for 100m is 10.01.

[jlauber]

Green is a freak no doubt. but 4.43 unofficial time and 4.43 at the combine are totally different. those players who runs disappointing 4.5 ish at the combine shows up in proday and shaves at least .05 to .1sec. virtually every top high school NFL prospect runs sub 4.4 hand timed. but 4 years later, after they become bigger and faster somehow runs disappointing 40 dash.

and no way 50 year old green runs legit 4.43. ianything under 4.45 is considered very good. only 5 CB prospect in this year's NFL combine ran 4.45 or below.

i have easier time believing Hayes would run 9.6 if he lived in this generation.

since 1999, there were 14 official 4.3 or below. and 2 fastest college 100m track star jacoby ford and trindon holiday ran 4.28 & 4.29. i believe their record for 100m is 10.01.

Green was something else. I recall a playoff game in which Eric Dickerson broke free around his 20 yard line, and was galloping to an easy TD. Keep in mind that Dickerson was a high school sprinter who ran a 9.4 100 yd dash. Green was near the sideline, and actually had to turn around before he saw Dickerson speeding toward the goal line. I have never seen any player make up so much real estate, so rapidly, as Green did on that play. He caught Dickerson just short of the goal line.

He also won "the NFL Fastest Man" competition several times, even later in his career. I seem to recall him running a 4.35 at nearly age 40.

As for Hayes...another under-rated NFL player, who only recently was finally voted into the HOF. How explosive was he? He AVERAGED 42 yards per play on his 76 career TDs.

[CavaliersFTW]

Based on all the data available from that time I have a ridiculously hard time buying into the agenda that 60s players were short, unathletic, or lacking in any physical attributes and gifts such as the long wingspans or stellar vertical leaping abilities of players that play today or from any other recent decade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4seN0mugh1k

Where's the difference in athleticism? Players today look athletically identical - collectively speaking the league doesn't appear to be jumping up for dunks any higher today than the guys in the video, I see absolutely no athleticism differences to speak of. From what I can see on paper via research (of actual player measurements) plus what can be found watching film is that physically/athletically - players today seem to differ only in one measurable way. The amount of mass they feel the need to put on in the gym and that's based on nothing but a players own personal preference it's not an athletic gift.

[Myth]

Thurmond
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz259/HolyGrailSports/1970s-NateThurmond.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/292xmra.jpg


Probably has a veiny **** too.

[Poetry]

Based on all the data available from that time I have a ridiculously hard time buying into the agenda that 60s players were short, unathletic, or lacking in any physical attributes and gifts such as the long wingspans or stellar vertical leaping abilities of players that play today or from any other recent decade...

http://www.apbr.org/apbr-faq.html

What is the yearly NBA average height and weight?

AVERAGE PLAYER HEIGHT AND WEIGHT
Season Height Weight
1949-50 - 6'4" 197 lbs.
1950-51 - 6'4" 198 lbs.
1951-52 - 6'4.5" 198 lbs.
1952-53 - 6'4.5" 200 lbs.
1953-54 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1954-55 - 6'5" 203 lbs.
1955-56 - 6'5" 206 lbs.
1956-57 - 6'5" 207 lbs.
1957-58 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1958-59 - 6'5" 208 lbs.
1959-60 - 6'5.5" 206 lbs.
1960-61 - 6'5.5" 207 lbs.
1961-62 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1962-63 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1963-64 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1964-65 - 6'6" 213 lbs.
1965-66 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1966-67 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1967-68 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1968-69 - 6'6" 214 lbs.
1969-70 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1970-71 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1971-72 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1972-73 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1973-74 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1974-75 - 6'6" 208 lbs.
1975-76 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1976-77 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1977-78 - 6'6.5" 207 lbs.
1978-79 - 6'6.5" 206 lbs.
1979-80 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1980-81 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1981-82 - 6'6.5" 210 lbs.
1982-83 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1983-84 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1984-85 - 6'7" 212 lbs.
1985-86 - 6'7.5" 214 lbs.
1986-87 - 6'7.5" 215 lbs.
1987-88 - ??? ???
1988-89 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1989-90 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1990-91 - 6'7" 215 lbs.
1991-92 - 6'7" 216 lbs.
1992-93 - 6'7" 217 lbs.
1993-94 - ??? ???
1994-95 - ??? ???
1995-96 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1996-97 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1997-98 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1998-99 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1999-00 - 6'7.5" 225 lbs.
2000-01 - 6'7" 224 lbs.

If these numbers are accurate, height and weight aren't very different across eras. By the 60's, the difference was negligible, i'd say.

And players are getting smaller today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

In 2006-07 the average was 6' 6.3" and 221.55 lbs.
In 2007-08 the average was 6' 6.98" and 221.00 lbs.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.apbr.org/apbr-faq.html

What is the yearly NBA average height and weight?

AVERAGE PLAYER HEIGHT AND WEIGHT
Season Height Weight
1949-50 - 6'4" 197 lbs.
1950-51 - 6'4" 198 lbs.
1951-52 - 6'4.5" 198 lbs.
1952-53 - 6'4.5" 200 lbs.
1953-54 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1954-55 - 6'5" 203 lbs.
1955-56 - 6'5" 206 lbs.
1956-57 - 6'5" 207 lbs.
1957-58 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1958-59 - 6'5" 208 lbs.
1959-60 - 6'5.5" 206 lbs.
1960-61 - 6'5.5" 207 lbs.
1961-62 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1962-63 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1963-64 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1964-65 - 6'6" 213 lbs.
1965-66 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1966-67 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1967-68 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1968-69 - 6'6" 214 lbs.
1969-70 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1970-71 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1971-72 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1972-73 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1973-74 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1974-75 - 6'6" 208 lbs.
1975-76 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1976-77 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1977-78 - 6'6.5" 207 lbs.
1978-79 - 6'6.5" 206 lbs.
1979-80 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1980-81 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1981-82 - 6'6.5" 210 lbs.
1982-83 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1983-84 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1984-85 - 6'7" 212 lbs.
1985-86 - 6'7.5" 214 lbs.
1986-87 - 6'7.5" 215 lbs.
1987-88 - ??? ???
1988-89 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1989-90 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1990-91 - 6'7" 215 lbs.
1991-92 - 6'7" 216 lbs.
1992-93 - 6'7" 217 lbs.
1993-94 - ??? ???
1994-95 - ??? ???
1995-96 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1996-97 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1997-98 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1998-99 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1999-00 - 6'7.5" 225 lbs.
2000-01 - 6'7" 224 lbs.

If these numbers are accurate, height and weight aren't very different across eras. By the 60's, the difference was negligible, i'd say.

And players are getting smaller today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

In 2006-07 the average was 6' 6.3" and 221.55 lbs.
In 2007-08 the average was 6' 6.98" and 221.00 lbs.

Those numbers aren't accurate, as they are based entirely on listed data. And although actual player measurement data is more difficult to come by, it is the only way to get a real scope on the sizes of players from different decades. Based on the limited number of player measurements from the past vs the (nearly complete) amount of player measurements available in the draft these days, it looks that players of the past aren't any shorter than players today, nor do they have inadequate secondary measurements such as wingspans/hand size etc. The vintage measurements allude that players of the 60s typically did not exaggerate the crap out of their heights (in fact, they sometimes sold themselves short). Starting around the 1980's the differences in listed height vs barefoot height starts to become noticably exaggerated.

[Linspired]

Green was something else. I recall a playoff game in which Eric Dickerson broke free around his 20 yard line, and was galloping to an easy TD. Keep in mind that Dickerson was a high school sprinter who ran a 9.4 100 yd dash. Green was near the sideline, and actually had to turn around before he saw Dickerson speeding toward the goal line. I have never seen any player make up so much real estate, so rapidly, as Green did on that play. He caught Dickerson just short of the goal line.

He also won "the NFL Fastest Man" competition several times, even later in his career. I seem to recall him running a 4.35 at nearly age 40.

As for Hayes...another under-rated NFL player, who only recently was finally voted into the HOF. How explosive was he? He AVERAGED 42 yards per play on his 76 career TDs.


again, any fast dudes in NFL can run 4.3's hand timed / unofficial. but not so many can do it on a combine. I believe Green was legit 4.25 guy, but running 4.43 at 50 is unofficial / non-combine time which really shouldn't be used as a fact. he really was fast though. i would say deion sanders & green were two fastest football player we've ever seen. and that includes all the track stars who played in the league. it is clear to me track speed and football speed are two very different thing. some trackstars don't run well with pads for sure.

[Poetry]

yes, the game speed beteen 80's and today are pretty much the same, but 50's and 60's?

Does anyone have any idea if NBA games were recorded on film or video or filmed while live broadcasts were occurring?

I can never tell what frame rate the older games are running at.

[Linspired]

today's listed weight is just too inconsistent. Carmelo Anthony is listed at 235lb. he just claimed that he lost 12lbs. is that mean he is now 223lb? hell no. Melo probably played at around 240-245lb last year. wade is listed at 220lb, but his target playing weight 2 years ago was 228lb. i think wade is around 225lb. bron once claimed he is 6ft 9 270lb. yet he is listed at 6ft 8 250lb. most likely bron is 6ft 7 1/2 ish and his playing weight is around 255lb.

typically players again 5-10lb after few seasons from their rookie years. some do lose weight dramatically too. corlis williamson for example.

[Linspired]

Probably has a veiny **** too.

those two pictures are somewhat exaggerated. nate thurmond was cut as hell, but he really wasn't that big.

[CavaliersFTW]

today's listed weight is just too inconsistent. Carmelo Anthony is listed at 235lb. he just claimed that he lost 12lbs. is that mean he is now 223lb? hell no. Melo probably played at around 240-245lb last year. wade is listed at 220lb, but his target playing weight 2 years ago was 228lb. i think wade is around 225lb. bron once claimed he is 6ft 9 270lb. yet he is listed at 6ft 8 250lb. most likely bron is 6ft 7 1/2 ish and his playing weight is around 255lb.

typically players again 5-10lb after few seasons from their rookie years. some do lose weight dramatically too. corlis williamson for example.

Your actually right on the money. And I'd like to also mention that listed weight from ANY era is equally inconsistent for the exact same reasons you just mentioned for this era. Example?

Nate Thurmond penciled in at 225 actually weighed no less than 229lbs when he checked into his rookie season. And according to newspapers his weight gradually goes from this (229lbs) to 235lbs in the late 60's and 240lbs in the 1970's. The weights of players from both past an present is never the same throughout an entire career save for an odd exception or two. Generally articles are published about players past and present that allude to their weight fluctations throughout their career, I always take those into account. I've found that trying to use a listed number for either height or weight has become almost pointless when trying to gauge two players sizes because neither seems to be accurate 9 times out of 10. Draftexpress.com/measurements has helped figure out why certain players look taller than others, and how tall or short players truly are regardless of what list height they were given.

[dunksby]

http://www.apbr.org/apbr-faq.html

What is the yearly NBA average height and weight?

AVERAGE PLAYER HEIGHT AND WEIGHT
Season Height Weight
1949-50 - 6'4" 197 lbs.
1950-51 - 6'4" 198 lbs.
1951-52 - 6'4.5" 198 lbs.
1952-53 - 6'4.5" 200 lbs.
1953-54 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1954-55 - 6'5" 203 lbs.
1955-56 - 6'5" 206 lbs.
1956-57 - 6'5" 207 lbs.
1957-58 - 6'5" 205 lbs.
1958-59 - 6'5" 208 lbs.
1959-60 - 6'5.5" 206 lbs.
1960-61 - 6'5.5" 207 lbs.
1961-62 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1962-63 - 6'5.5" 208 lbs.
1963-64 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1964-65 - 6'6" 213 lbs.
1965-66 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1966-67 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1967-68 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1968-69 - 6'6" 214 lbs.
1969-70 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1970-71 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1971-72 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1972-73 - 6'6" 211 lbs.
1973-74 - 6'6" 210 lbs.
1974-75 - 6'6" 208 lbs.
1975-76 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1976-77 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1977-78 - 6'6.5" 207 lbs.
1978-79 - 6'6.5" 206 lbs.
1979-80 - 6'6.5" 208 lbs.
1980-81 - 6'6.5" 209 lbs.
1981-82 - 6'6.5" 210 lbs.
1982-83 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1983-84 - 6'7" 211 lbs.
1984-85 - 6'7" 212 lbs.
1985-86 - 6'7.5" 214 lbs.
1986-87 - 6'7.5" 215 lbs.
1987-88 - ??? ???
1988-89 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1989-90 - 6'7" 214 lbs.
1990-91 - 6'7" 215 lbs.
1991-92 - 6'7" 216 lbs.
1992-93 - 6'7" 217 lbs.
1993-94 - ??? ???
1994-95 - ??? ???
1995-96 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1996-97 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1997-98 - 6'7" 223 lbs.
1998-99 - 6'7" 224 lbs.
1999-00 - 6'7.5" 225 lbs.
2000-01 - 6'7" 224 lbs.

If these numbers are accurate, height and weight aren't very different across eras. By the 60's, the difference was negligible, i'd say.

And players are getting smaller today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience

In 2006-07 the average was 6' 6.3" and 221.55 lbs.
In 2007-08 the average was 6' 6.98" and 221.00 lbs.

3" difference in average height and 25lbs in average weight is considerable actually.

[CavaliersFTW]

Does anyone have any idea if NBA games were recorded on film or video or filmed while live broadcasts were occurring?

I can never tell what frame rate the older games are running at.

It depends on the game, I can only recall two pieces of gamefilm so far from the 60's that are ~30fps like a live broadcast. The rest is pretty much all 25-23.97 like film

[CavaliersFTW]

3" difference in average height and 25lbs in average weight is considerable actually.
he said by the 60s, which is only 1 inch difference on paper, but read the other responses and you'll get more info on why those numbers are probably all wrong anyways.

[Linspired]

3" difference in average height and 25lbs in average weight is considerable actually.

but you are comparing 50's to today. look at 60's or 70's. the difference isn't all that much from that listing.

i don't buy it. today's player's may not be any taller, but they still carry more weight considerably. i actually think today's players need to drop few pounds. you don't need all that muscle in basketball. you can always gain functional strength without gaining all that muscle. MMA anyone?