Lebron = one of the 12 greatest players of all time

[oolalaa]

Congratulations Lebron, you are now one of the 12 greatest players of all time - greater than Isiah, greater than Barkley & Malone, greater than Rick Barry, greater than Oscar & Baylor and, now, even greater than Moses Malone! (According to me, anyway :oldlol: )

:djparty

After nine long, pressure laden, angst ridden, choke filled, and slightly comical seasons, you have finally fulfilled that gargantuan potential we all saw in you as a high school senior. You matured into the player and person we all wanted you to be. Considering the pressure, as well as Bosh's injury and Wade's poor play, it was one of the very best playoff runs in NBA history - I'll never forget game 4 in Indiana and game 6 in Boston.

And, don't forget to send Skip Bayless & Dan Gilbert a never ending stream of "HOW U LIKE ME NOW??!!" and "U MAD??!!" tweets over the summer - you earnt it :cheers:

*UPDATED*

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Jerry West
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Lebron James
13. Moses Malone
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Elgin Baylor

16. Bob Pettit
17. Julius Erving
18. John Havlicek
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Rick Barry
21. Karl Malone
22. Charles Barkley
23. Kevin Garnett

24. Dwyane Wade
25. Isiah Thomas
26. Walt Frazier
27. Bill Walton
28. Patrick Ewing
29. David Robinson
30. Scottie Pippen

[jlauber]

I now have Lebron at #12, just behind Hakeem at #11, and Moses at #10. However, barring injury he will surpass both.

[oolalaa]

I now have Lebron at #12, just behind Hakeem at #11, and Moses at #10. However, barring injury he will surpass both.

Yeh, I agree, he'll be a top 10 player very soon. I think the holy trinity is out of reach (MJ, Magic & Russ) but, now that he's finally over the hump and the pressure has eased considerably, he could definitely challenge Kareem for that 4th spot....

[jlauber]

Yeh, I agree, he'll be a top 10 player very soon. I think the holy trinity is out of reach (MJ, Magic & Russ) but, now that he's finally over the hump and the pressure has eased considerably, he could definitely challenge Kareem for that 4th spot....

We'll never agree on the top of your list. Chamberlain was the most dominant player to ever play the game.

1-4, in any order, Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt.

5. Kareem
6. Shaq and Duncan

8. Kobe
9. Bird

[D-Wade316]

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Kobe
10. Erving
11. Bird
12. Lebron
13. KG
14. Dirk
15. Wade
16. Oscar
17. West
18. M. Malone
19. Pettit
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. K. Malone
23. Nash
24. Pippen
25. Frazier

[pauk]

I now have Lebron at #12, just behind Hakeem at #11, and Moses at #10. However, barring injury he will surpass both.

Good one... i have it something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. Oscar
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving / Karl Malone

[longtime lurker]

LOL how the fvck is Wade so high on your lists? :roll: :roll:

[Miller for 3]

He's not better than Oscar, Dr. J, West, Garnett, or both Malones. They all have longevity over Lebron and similar peaks.

[jlauber]

Good one... i have it something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. Oscar
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving / Karl Malone

Good list. In any case, those are the players on almost everyone's all-time lists. We could argue on the order until the cows come home.

[RazorBaLade]

i think he needs 2 titles to be 11th but thats just me.. 3 for 7th..

[AK47DR91]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Chamberlain
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. LeBron
10a. Hakeem
10b. Kobe

[GreatGreg]

He's not better than Oscar, Dr. J, West, Garnett, or both Malones. They all have longevity over Lebron and similar peaks.
:biggums:
That means shit! :facepalm

[oh the horror]

Wade is not a top 20 player. Im sorry but no.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Kobe
10. Erving
11. Bird
12. Lebron
13. KG
14. Dirk
15. Wade
16. Oscar
17. West
18. M. Malone
19. Pettit
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. K. Malone
23. Nash
24. Pippen
25. Frazier
:oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

He's not better than Oscar, Dr. J, West, Garnett, or both Malones. They all have longevity over Lebron and similar peaks.
:facepalm Lebron's peak without a doubt is better than the players you listed.

[BMOGEFan]

:oldlol:

wade is not even higher than pippen

[brantonli]

Hate to say this as a Rockets fan but LeBron has a very strong chance of passing Hakeem on all-time lists (assuming Wade is still there to support him, but dayum the guy is 30 already...)

[YAWN]

Lebrons current resume + 4/5 more years of superstar level play, sure #12 it is. Climbing from 10 onward is going to take a lot though. those guys have some insane resumes.

jordan - 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, 5 mvps etc etc
kareem - 6 rings, 2 finals mvps, 6 mvps etc etc
magic - 5 rings, 3 finals mvps, 3 mvps etc etc
russell - 11 rings, 5x mvp, 12x all star, 11x all nba etc etc

kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 14x all star, 14x all nba, 12x all d, 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 13x all nba, 13x all d
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, 3x all d, 2x scoring champ
wilt - 2 rings, 1x finals mvp, 4 mvps, 13x all star, 10x all nba, 2x all d etc etc
bird - 3 rings, 2 finals mvps, 3 mvps, 12x all star, 10x all nba, 3x all d
hakeem - 2 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 12x all star, 12x all nba, 9x all d, 2x DPOY

[jlauber]

Hate to say this as a Rockets fan but LeBron has a very strong chance of passing Hakeem on all-time lists (assuming Wade is still there to support him, but dayum the guy is 30 already...)

You have factor in longevity to a certain extent, which is why I still have Hakeem slightly higher, but, Lebron has finished in the top-3 in MVP balloting FIVE times (with THREE MVPs) in his nine year career, while Hakeem finished in the top-3, TWO times (with ONE MVP) in his ENTIRE 18 season career.

[t-rex]

I would take LBJ over Jerry West.

[longtime lurker]

:facepalm Lebron's peak without a doubt is better than the players you listed.

Who cares about peak? Jesus that's the worst criteria for ranking players. However Lebron's accomplishments in total outweigh those other players so it's fair to say he's better.

[3zazer1]

Congratulations Lebron, you are now one of the 12 greatest players of all time - greater than Isiah, greater than Barkley & Malone, greater than Rick Barry, greater than Oscar & Baylor and, now, even greater than Moses Malone! (According to me, anyway :oldlol: )

:djparty

After nine long, pressure laden, angst ridden, choke filled, and slightly comical seasons, you have finally fulfilled that gargantuan potential we all saw in you as a high school senior. You matured into the player and person we all wanted you to be. Considering the pressure, as well as Bosh's injury and Wade's poor play, it was one of the very best playoff runs in NBA history - I'll never forget game 4 in Indiana and game 6 in Boston.

And, don't forget to send Skip Bayless & Dan Gilbert a never ending stream of "HOW U LIKE ME NOW??!!" and "U MAD??!!" tweets over the summer - you earnt it :cheers:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Jerry West
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Lebron James
13. Moses Malone
14. Bob Pettit
15. Oscar Robertson
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Julius Erving
18. John Havlicek
19. Dwyane Wade
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Rick Barry
22. Karl Malone
23. Charles Barkley
24. Kevin Garnett
25. Isiah Thomas
26. Walt Frazier

27. Bill Walton
28. David Robinson
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Scottie Pippen
31. Clyde Drexler
32. Sam Jones
33. Dave Cowens
34. Willis Reed
35. Steve Nash
36. George Gervin
37. Allen Iverson
38. Jason Kidd
39. John Stockton

40. Bob Cousy
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Paul Arizin
43. Billy Cunningham
44. Paul Pierce
45. Kevin McHale
46. Gary Payton
47. Dominique Wilkins
48. Elvin Hayes
49. Chris Webber
50. Hal Greer
51. Reggie Miller
52. Ray Allen
53. Kevin Johnson

54. Bob McAdoo
55. Kevin Durant
56. Chris Paul
57. Dwight Howard
58. James Worthy
59. Tracy McGrady
60. Carmelo Anthony
61. Pau Gasol
62. Dennis Johnson
63. Gus Williams
64. Wes Unseld
65. Nate Thurmond
66. Dave Debusschere
67. Jerry lucas
68. Bernard King
69. David Thompson
70. Alex English
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Pete Maravich
73. Tiny Archibald

74. Jo Jo White
75. Bobby Dandridge

Honourable mentions: Cliff Hagan, Tom Heinsohn, Robert Parish, Bill Sharman and MIKE ****ING MILLER!!!!!
Maybe it's just me, but you can't put Lebron over Oscar Roberson. Yes, Bron is one of the most dominate players in NBA history but Oscars contribution to the game is unparalleled. Averaging a triple double for multiple years. That possibly will never happen again.

[Dave3]

Who cares about peak? Jesus that's the worst criteria for ranking players.
Did you seriously just ask that? Who cares about how the player in question actually played? Of course peak and prime are the most important ways to rank players. Actually rank them based on what they could do themselves, not the mere situation they were thrown in. I'm not saying there's a huge "what if?" for every little ranking debate but have a little common sense. If you're not ranking basketball players based on how they played basketball, you're doing something wrong.

[oolalaa]

We'll never agree on the top of your list. Chamberlain was the most dominant player to ever play the game.

1-4, in any order, Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt.

5. Kareem
6. Shaq and Duncan

8. Kobe
9. Bird

Well, we agree on 3 of the top 4! That's pretty close I'd say. I do think you underestimate how dominant Bird was at his peak, too, but that's not worth getting into now.

And, having Moses over Hakeem is a little ridiculous to me. He was no more dominant at his peak (Over 2 years, Hakeem demolished 2 of the best greatest defensive centers of his era on the way to carrying 2 teams, with ZERO all stars, to back to back championships. Moses could only manage 1 ring and 1 ECF appearance with a significantly more loaded roster) and didn't have the longevity that Hakeem did.

[The Choken One]

LeBron will be top 5 when he retires.

[oolalaa]

Maybe it's just me, but you can't put Lebron over Oscar Roberson. Yes, Bron is one of the most dominate players in NBA history but Oscars contribution to the game is unparalleled. Averaging a triple double for multiple years. That possibly will never happen again.

Oscar just might be the most overrated player in NBA history. Certainly the most overrated all time great.

[chips93]

Maybe it's just me, but you can't put Lebron over Oscar Roberson. Yes, Bron is one of the most dominate players in NBA history but Oscars contribution to the game is unparalleled. Averaging a triple double for multiple years. That possibly will never happen again.

oscar had one year averaging a triple double, and not to disprespect an nba legend, but when you factor in pace, it become a little less impressive

if oscar played at todays pace his numbers translate to like 22-8-8, or something like that

[longtime lurker]

Did you seriously just ask that? Who cares about how the player in question actually played? Of course peak and prime are the most important ways to rank players. Actually rank them based on what they could do themselves, not the mere situation they were thrown in. I'm not saying there's a huge "what if?" for every little ranking debate but have a little common sense. If you're not ranking basketball players based on how they played basketball, you're doing something wrong.

Ummm yeah I'd rather rank a player based on sustained longevity playing at an elite level. If bet there tons of players in NBA history if I take their 2-3 best years I can make an argument for the top 20 of all time. Sorry but give me the player who can obtain success throughout a whole career over someone who does it for a short period of time.

[Mach_3]

19. Dwyane Wade
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Rick Barry
22. Karl Malone
23. Charles Barkley
24. Kevin Garnett

:biggums:

[D-Wade316]

Who cares about peak? Jesus that's the worst criteria for ranking players. However Lebron's accomplishments in total outweigh those other players so it's fair to say he's better.
My god you're an idiot. :facepalm

[Mach_3]

oscar had one year averaging a triple double, and not to disprespect an nba legend, but when you factor in pace, it become a little less impressive

if oscar played at todays pace his numbers translate to like 22-8-8, or something like that

You have absolutely no idea how his numbers would actually translate into this era. Different eras, different rules, different game.

[montaownedu]

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Kobe
10. Erving
11. Bird
12. Lebron
13. KG
14. Dirk
15. Wade
16. Oscar
17. West
18. M. Malone
19. Pettit
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. K. Malone
23. Nash
24. Pippen
25. Frazier

That's a clown list, bro.

[longtime lurker]

My god you're an idiot. :facepalm

I'm sure there's no bias in the guy with a D-WADE316 username :lol

[jlauber]

Well, we agree on 3 of the top 4! That's pretty close I'd say. I do think you underestimate how dominant Bird was at his peak, too, but that's not worth getting into now.

And, having Moses over Hakeem is a little ridiculous to me. He was no more dominant at his peak (Over 2 years, Hakeem demolished 2 of the best greatest defensive centers of his era on the way to carrying 2 teams, with ZERO all stars, to back to back championships. Moses could only manage 1 ring and 1 ECF appearance with a significantly more loaded roster) and didn't have the longevity that Hakeem did.

Hakeem basically built his entire career on outplaying Ewing in the '94 Finals, and crushing D-Rob in the '95 playoffs. You will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (although his ZERO all-stars BADLY outplayed Shaq's teammates.) Furthermore, EIGHT first-round playoff exits (and virtually all of them were routs) has to count for something in his post-season career.

And Moses won three MVPs, and was arguably the most dominant player from '79 thru '85 in the league. Here again, only Chamberlain throughout most, if not all, of his career, and a prime Shaq could claim the domination that Moses carpet-bombed his opposing centers with...including Kareem, whom he whipped pretty handily in the vast majority of their career H2H's.

Meanwhile, Hakeem won ONE MVP (and that came in a season in which MJ took the year off...which, BTW, probably would have reduced his rings from two to one), and finished in the top-2 TWICE in his 18 season career, and only four times was he even in the top-4.

Granted Moses post-season career, with the exception of getting a 40-42 team to the Finals (and waxing Kareem in the playoffs), and his absolute domination of everyone in '83, was a disappointment. However, he was going up against the Laker Dynasty of that decade, as well as the Celtic "mini Dynasty."

And Moses was more statistically dominant, as well. At his peak he was pouring in 31.1 ppg, shooting .540, and grabbing 17.6 rpg. He was the game's 4th greatest rebounder, behind Wilt, Russell, and Rodman, and was perhaps the most relentless player whoever played the game.

[3zazer1]

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Kobe
10. Erving
11. Bird
12. Lebron
13. KG
14. Dirk
15. Wade
16. Oscar
17. West
18. M. Malone
19. Pettit
20. Robinson
21. Barkley
22. K. Malone
23. Nash
24. Pippen
25. Frazier
:wtf:

[jlauber]

:wtf:

Yep...wtf!

What kind of a career did that guy have? And why is his name on the Finals MVP trophy (hell, he never won a FMVP)?

[bizil]

Peak value wise, Bron in my book is in the top 10 players of all time. But the list that counts is the GOAT list. Bron has such a track record in his young career that he has a case in the top 12 already. This is a situation like Jordan and Shaq where u are so great and revolutionary early on that u can jump up the charts quick. His overall career numbers in terms of points, boards, and assists don't speak to great longevity as of yet, even though those numbers accumulated in that time span are epic. But when u look at this shit, this compares favorably to guys already in the HOF:

Career Averages: 27.9 points 6.9 assists 7.2 boards
3 Time MVP
Finals MVP
NBA Champ
Olympic Gold Medal
Rookie of the Year
8 Time All Star
8 Time All NBA
4 Time All D Team

And of top of it, he's been the face of the L and regarded as the best player for a while now. This can accelerate going up the charts in a rapid fashion. So all in all:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Big O

Bron
Hakeem

I got Bron number 11 all time as of now. His combo of solo accolades and now team success jumped him over Hakeem, West, Doc, Hondo, Karl, Moses, Zeke, and Chuck. I realize some of these guys still have more career points, rings, etc. But peak value or current wise, Bron is better than all of them. And other than Hakeem and maybe Moses, none were regarded as the flat out best player in the L during their eras. And other than Doc, none was regarded as the face of the L. Even though Clutch is the Logo, so that has to count for something! lol

[Magic 32]

Peak value wise, Bron in my book is in the top 10 players of all time. But the list that counts is the GOAT list. Bron has such a track record in his young career that he has a case in the top 12 already. This is a situation like Jordan and Shaq where u are so great and revolutionary early on that u can jump up the charts quick. His overall career numbers in terms of points, boards, and assists don't speak to great longevity as of yet, even though those numbers accumulated in that time span are epic. But when u look at this shit, this compares favorably to guys already in the HOF:

Career Averages: 27.9 points 6.9 assists 7.2 boards
3 Time MVP
Finals MVP
NBA Champ
Olympic Gold Medal
Rookie of the Year
8 Time All Star
8 Time All NBA
4 Time All D Team

And of top of it, he's been the face of the L and regarded as the best player for a while now. This can accelerate going up the charts in a rapid fashion. So all in all:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Big O

Bron
Hakeem

I got Bron number 11 all time as of now. His combo of solo accolades and now team success jumped him over Hakeem, West, Doc, Hondo, Karl, Moses, Zeke, and Chuck. I realize some of these guys still have more career points, rings, etc. But peak value or current wise, Bron is better than all of them. And other than Hakeem and maybe Moses, none were regarded as the flat out best player in the L during their eras. And other than Doc, none was regarded as the face of the L. Even though Clutch is the Logo, so that has to count for something! lol

Over Hakeem? :biggums:

[bizil]

Over Hakeem? :biggums:

It could go either way, but I say yes at this point. I think Bron is that special to where he can accelerate up the charts quicker than most. Hakeem does have two rings no doubt. But Bron has been to three Finals like Hakeem has as well. Bron has been considered the best player in the L LONGER than Hakeem ever was. Bron has more MVP's at this point as well. Plus Bron is the face of the L. It wasn't an easy decision for me to rank him over Hakeem, but I think Bron is the rare bird that can jump up the list quick.

Many have Biggie Smalls in the top five rappers of all time with a short career. Why? Cause Biggie was that damn great that it acclerated his rise up the charts. Biggie at his peak was epic, so that counts for something. Look at Gale Sayers in football getting in the HOF after a short career. If u r a Bron, Sayers, or Biggie, u rise faster. Look at Jim Brown. He retired from football at 29 or 30 and IS STILL considered by many to be the GOAT football player. Once again guys like Bron and Brown are special cats and a different category. Go back to when MJ won just his FIRST ring and see how many people had him in the top ten already.

[juju151111]

Hakeem basically built his entire career on outplaying Ewing in the '94 Finals, and crushing D-Rob in the '95 playoffs. You will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (although his ZERO all-stars BADLY outplayed Shaq's teammates.) Furthermore, EIGHT first-round playoff exits (and virtually all of them were routs) has to count for something in his post-season career.

And Moses won three MVPs, and was arguably the most dominant player from '79 thru '85 in the league. Here again, only Chamberlain throughout most, if not all, of his career, and a prime Shaq could claim the domination that Moses carpet-bombed his opposing centers with...including Kareem, whom he whipped pretty handily in the vast majority of their career H2H's.

Meanwhile, Hakeem won ONE MVP (and that came in a season in which MJ took the year off...which, BTW, probably would have reduced his rings from two to one), and finished in the top-2 TWICE in his 18 season career, and only four times was he even in the top-4.

Granted Moses post-season career, with the exception of getting a 40-42 team to the Finals (and waxing Kareem in the playoffs), and his absolute domination of everyone in '83, was a disappointment. However, he was going up against the Laker Dynasty of that decade, as well as the Celtic "mini Dynasty."

And Moses was more statistically dominant, as well. At his peak he was pouring in 31.1 ppg, shooting .540, and grabbing 17.6 rpg. He was the game's 4th greatest rebounder, behind Wilt, Russell, and Rodman, and was perhaps the most relentless player whoever played the game.
BS Hakeem>Moses Go check the playoffs numbers. Hakeem is one of the few who raised hisg in playoff time unlike somebody we know. Lmao Hakeem teams gave no help to him. U mad has hell son

[ShaqAttack3234]

I have Lebron 11th, and it seems like that's where he'll stay on my list, but he has a shot at slipping in to the top 10. He won't end up in my top 5 now.

As of right now, the following are the guys I believe were better, and absolutely no more.

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Wilt and Kobe.

He really is phenomenal, like him or not. And accomplished the only thing he had left to accomplish.

And this title means more than a title would've last year to me. He had a much more impressive title run, and had to do more because Wade was a top 3-4 player last season, and Bosh was healthy, and he's a top 15-20 player giving Lebron a ton of help, he had more help in '11 than any of the actual superstars who won titles since probably the 80's.

But with Wade's prime appearing to be over, and his decline starting, I'm not sure he's even a top 5 player, and Bosh of course missed 9 of Miami's 14 playoff games. Which is why Lebron went from averaging 24/8/6 on 47% in last years playoffs to 30/10/6 on 50% in this years playoffs.

So now, his help didn't look that unusual. Granted, he did have Bosh back for the end of the Boston series, and a healthy, productive Bosh for the finals, plus the role players started stepping up when Bosh went down. And their path to the finals wasn't difficult with a Knick team who had injuries and lacked chemistry, a flawed Indiana team who pretty much gave games away with painfully embarrassing mistakes(particularly Paul George), and a very old Boston team with Pierce finally looking old, Allen also looking old and struggling with injuries, Pietrus killing the team with his non-existent basketball IQ and really nobody playing well except for KG, Rondo and Bass as well as a key role player Avery Bradley being out. Out of Boston's playoff rotation, KG, Rondo and Bass were the only players to shoot over 40%.

But the guy just had a phenomenal playoff run, accomplished the number 1 goal, and only true goal in basketball, and he's without question the best player in basketball.

The fact that Lebron has been the best player in the league for 4 seasons(how many players have done that?) is a big reason for me to rank him top 11.



Hakeem basically built his entire career on outplaying Ewing in the '94 Finals, and crushing D-Rob in the '95 playoffs. You will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (although his ZERO all-stars BADLY outplayed Shaq's teammates.) Furthermore, EIGHT first-round playoff exits (and virtually all of them were routs) has to count for something in his post-season career.

And Moses won three MVPs, and was arguably the most dominant player from '79 thru '85 in the league. Here again, only Chamberlain throughout most, if not all, of his career, and a prime Shaq could claim the domination that Moses carpet-bombed his opposing centers with...including Kareem, whom he whipped pretty handily in the vast majority of their career H2H's.

Meanwhile, Hakeem won ONE MVP (and that came in a season in which MJ took the year off...which, BTW, probably would have reduced his rings from two to one), and finished in the top-2 TWICE in his 18 season career, and only four times was he even in the top-4.

Granted Moses post-season career, with the exception of getting a 40-42 team to the Finals (and waxing Kareem in the playoffs), and his absolute domination of everyone in '83, was a disappointment. However, he was going up against the Laker Dynasty of that decade, as well as the Celtic "mini Dynasty."

And Moses was more statistically dominant, as well. At his peak he was pouring in 31.1 ppg, shooting .540, and grabbing 17.6 rpg. He was the game's 4th greatest rebounder, behind Wilt, Russell, and Rodman, and was perhaps the most relentless player whoever played the game.

Cut the bullsh*t. Moses has NO case over Hakeem.

Hakeem won more with MUCH less help. How many players had the help Moses did from '83-'85 in their primes? And Moses lost in the 1st round in '84 with a team more talented than anyone just about any great center has had in their prime, and then lost with an even more talented team in '85 to a Celtics team with an injured Bird, and while the Celtics did have a lot of talent, a reason they were great is because Bird was by far the best player in the league from '84 to '86.

Hakeem was a better scorer than Moses, he was used as a playmaker and facilitator in the post, which Houston's offense relied on because they played a 4 out/1 in with shootrs spacing the floor, and Hakeem is a top 5 defensive player of all time, a MUCH better defender than Moses. Moses only had rebounding on Hakeem.

Outside of '81 and '83, Moses did nothing special in the playoffs(and even in '81, he did not have a very good finals), and was extremely disappointing in '82, '84 and '85.

Hakeem is also one of the great playoff performers. His '94 and '95 runs compare to anyone to play the game, he was just as good in '93, and should've been an absolutely LOADED Sonics team with a cast that wasn't special.

Look at what Hakeem did BEFORE HIS PRIME in the playoffs. When he was a raw second year player in '86 who had only been playing basketball since his mid teens, he upset a loaded Laker team and took the greatest team ever, the '86 Celtics to 6 with his inferior team. During that run, he averaged 27/11 with 3.5 bpg on 53% shooting.

In '87, with a deteriorating cast due to Sampson's injuries, he put up 49/25/6 in double OT in game 6 of the WCSF and would've taken them to 7 if not for a BS non call on a goal tend that would've given him a shot at a 3 point play(he made both free throws instead), and Sampson missing a key free throw.

In '88, he had the misfortune of facing a stacked Mavs team(more talented than just about any 00's title team for reference), a team that took Magic's loaded Lakers to 7, and Hakeem averaged 38/17 on 57% in the series. Can you blame him for losing that one?

The guy flat out brought it in the playoffs, as well as anyone I've seen.

He was the least fortunate player in the top 10 as far as casts.

Hakeem>>>Moses

And you don't "win" MVPs, you get voted MVP, they're subjective. And it's a joke to rank players based on the media's flawed award. Hakeem should've been MVP in '93 as well, and as far as I'm concerned, he was. Moses got one he didn't deserve in '79, btw.

[Kovach]

You will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals
If so you insist on being 1 of maybe 5 people in this world who believe it was a wash then by all means please continue.

[Fudge]

Good one... i have it something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. Oscar
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving / Karl Malone
:applause:

[Lebron23]

He's the best today, the best tomorrow, and the best there will be.

[jlauber]

BS Hakeem>Moses Go check the playoffs numbers. Hakeem is one of the few who raised hisg in playoff time unlike somebody we know. Lmao Hakeem teams gave no help to him. U mad has hell son


You mean the Chamberlain who played in 29 playoff series, and was arguably never outplayed in any of them? The Wilt who, in his scoring prime, averaged 33 ppg 26 rpg and shot .505 in his six post-seasons? The Wilt, who thru his first seven post-seasons, covering 67 games (and 35 against Russell) averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shot .515 (in league's that shot .426 on average in that span), along with 8+ bpg...AND dramatically reduced his opposing centers numbers? And he was outscored in 3 of those 67 games (and only ONE in his first 52, covering his "scoring" prime) while seldom being outrebounded. And in MANY of those games, he was just crushing his peers.

This Chamberlain?


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to 23-60 shooting, or a .383 FG%, while Wilt shot 18-33, or .545.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[dyna]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. West
14. Julius
15. Oscar

[Big#50]

MJ
KAJ
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Wilt
Magic
Hakeem
Russell
Lebron/Kobe

[raiderfan19]

Iv seen a couple of people that list dr j over lebron and I'm sorry but that not even arguable

[miles berg]

I could see LeBron passing Kobe & Hakeem for the 9th spot all time some day. But that's it, that top 8 won't happen. Jordan, Jabbar, Russell, Wilt, Larry, Magic, Duncan, & Shaq are untouchable to any current player.

It will take a truly unbelievable player to get into that category. That guy isn't in today's NBA.

[dynasty1978]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. West
14. Julius
15. Oscar

Great list, pretty much the way I have it.

[dynasty1978]

I could see LeBron passing Kobe & Hakeem for the 9th spot all time some day. But that's it, that top 8 won't happen. Jordan, Jabbar, Russell, Wilt, Larry, Magic, Duncan, & Shaq are untouchable to any current player.

It will take a truly unbelievable player to get into that category. That guy isn't in today's NBA.

It's possible for Lebron to pass Shaq, Duncan, Kobe.....but will require sustained individual and team dominance. Watching Lebron and the Heat this year, they played with an obvious sense of determination.

The question is whether they can duplicate that effort. It may sound cliche, the hardest thing in sports is repeating....there's a reason why so few teams have done it. Sometimes teams get complacent or the natural wear and tear takes its toll, time will tell.

[G.O.A.T]

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. William Felton Russell
3. Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr.
4. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.
5. Wilton Norman Chamberlain
6. Larry Joe Bird
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan
8. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal
9. Kobe Bean Bryant
10. George Lawerence Mikan Jr.
11. Akeem Abdul Olajuwon
12. Moses Eugene Malone
13. Julius Winfield Erving II
14. LeBron James

What LeBron needs to do to move up:

13. Doc - Right there with him. I can even see myself taking LeBron over Doc by the start of next season. Erving has an edge in terms of prime.peak longevity spending ten seasons among the elite, but James seems sure to get there and LBJ has one thing Doctor J doesn't. An NBA title as the man.

12. Moses - Longevity is all. Another title or even MVP guarantees it. LeBron now has equaled, if not exceeded Moses in terms of prime and peak and he has the accolades and now the hardware to rival him.

11. Dream - Winning back-to-back next season would probably do it. Assuming he also adds another all-NBA first team he have more MVP's, more 1st team selections and better numbers than Hakeem with a prime almost as long and a peak as long. Both made the finals appearance in their early twenties and came back and won a title. James advantage is that he didn't have the 2-3 down seasons Hakeem did.

10. Mikan - Might need two more titles, one for sure. Mikan was essentially the worlds best player for 7-8 years. James could accomplish that, I'd say he's been in the conversation for 3-4 years and his performance over the last 15 games (since going down 2-1 to the Pacers) leaves no doubt. He doesn't need to equal Mikan's seven Championships (or even his 5 NBA) But he needs to continue to show, as Big George did, that having him means your always a contender.

9. Bean - Like with Mikan, needs a few more titles. He's already peaked higher than Kobe, but Kobe incredible prime longevity (coming up on 15 years now) puts him in a class with guys like Kareem and Karl Malone. Assuming James isn't still elite in 2018 (he could be I suppose) he'll need to make his mark with a shorter, but more dominant run like Shaq, Duncan, Wilt and Bird had...speaking of which.

8. Shaq - It's unlikely that LeBron will ever dominate the way Shaq did from 2000-02, but his durability will allow him to accomplish much more overall if he stays on his current course. Shaq lost out on a lot of potential MVP seasons because he couldn't stay healthy and his stubbornness may have cost him at least one ring. For all of LeBron's flaws, he won his first title at age 27, nine months younger than the Diesel and with three times the MVP hardware . To pass Shaq, add a couple titles and have at least one more monster season and more importantly playoff run.

7. Duncan - I have Duncan above Kobe and Shaq because of his consistency both individually and within the team construct. LeBron's peak, IMO matches Duncan's now that LBJ has a ring. That was the only thing Duncan had done that the King hadn't proven he could do. Now it's about doing what Duncan does best; make your team a contender every year. LeBron is well on his way. Since the surprise run in 2007, James' teams have been legit title contenders every year. Either being eliminated by the eventual Champion or runner-up every season until being crowned last night. James doesn't need anymore hardware, but Duncan won two rings after his MVP peak, James needs to do at least the same.

6. Bird - Bird's run from 84-86 is what puts him above these other guys in the top ten. For that three year stretch many believed he was on his way to becoming the greatest player of all-time and his team in '86 was largely considered the greatest to ever play. Bird had the ability to lift Boston to titles against the even more star-studded Lakers. That being said, Magic eventually overtook Bird. Unless Durant or Howard or another up and coming star has what it takes to surpass James soon. I could see him reeling off two more seasons at an elite level and top five talk, if not GOAT talk, will become a reality.

5. Wilt - If he passes the four guys above, he'll probably get Wilt too. Like Wilt, James is a special talent. It's a big part of why Wilt is so high up. At his very best Wilt was the greatest the game has ever seen. If James gets only one more ring, but his numbers and durability are maintained for 8-10 more seasons, he'll be right below Wilt because Wilt's '67 season was better than James run this year. A few more rings though and even if I still think Wilt's better James will have done more with what he had.

4. Kareem - Like Kareem, LeBron has spent the better part of his prime being the guy that everyone knows is the most talented player but because of intangibles those same folks aren't so sure he's the best player. To catch Kareem LeBron will either need to go on a major run the next 3-5 years or he'll need to play 10 more and match the amazing longevity that Cap showed. Either way he has to win a lot, Kareem was always winning, even if he wasn't always leading, he was rarely standing in the way.

3. Magic - To catch Magic the following must happen: Needs to win back-to-back as the alpha (or something like 3 in 5 years with extenuating circumstances) Needs to continue to be the likable, no nonsense machine Lebron he was during the last two rounds of the playoffs plus. Needs to exceed Magic's longevity (doable) and needs to make his mark in terms of numbers or accolades like Magic did.

2. Russell - Needs to lead a Dynasty. Three in a row or at least five total as the man. Needs to win at least two more MVP's. There are lots of ways you could debate that LeBrons talents are greater than Russell's but the chasm between results is so great and LeBron was failed so many more times than Russell. I think three may be James peak, but at 27 years old with insane durability, you can't count him out yet,

1. Air - Needs to do what he did this year for at least four or five more years. Needs to win 4 or 5 more titles. Needs to go out on top or at the very least on his own terms, not chasing another title or boost to his legacy. Really until he gets a lot closer, this is too hard to look at. They are just in two different stratospheres at the moment. But still, after last night, this is a topic worth discussing.

[BlueandGold]

Top12 is pretty specific, top15 for sure. Greater than players like Barkley, Miller, Baylor, etc who couldn't get it done. For players like Moses, Dr. J, Oscar I want to see a few more seasons but I officially put him past them but he's getting pretty damn close.

[BlueandGold]

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. William Felton Russell
3. Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr.
4. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.
5. Wilton Norman Chamberlain
6. Larry Joe Bird
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan
8. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal
9. Kobe Bean Bryant
10. George Lawerence Mikan Jr.
11. Akeem Abdul Olajuwon
12. Moses Eugene Malone
13. Julius Winfield Erving II
14. LeBron James

What LeBron needs to do to move up:

13. Doc - Right there with him. I can even see myself taking LeBron over Doc by the start of next season. Erving has an edge in terms of prime.peak longevity spending ten seasons among the elite, but James seems sure to get there and LBJ has one thing Doctor J doesn't. An NBA title as the man.

12. Moses - Longevity is all. Another title or even MVP guarantees it. LeBron now has equaled, if not exceeded Moses in terms of prime and peak and he has the accolades and now the hardware to rival him.

11. Dream - Winning back-to-back next season would probably do it. Assuming he also adds another all-NBA first team he have more MVP's, more 1st team selections and better numbers than Hakeem with a prime almost as long and a peak as long. Both made the finals appearance in their early twenties and came back and won a title. James advantage is that he didn't have the 2-3 down seasons Hakeem did.

10. Mikan - Might need two more titles, one for sure. Mikan was essentially the worlds best player for 7-8 years. James could accomplish that, I'd say he's been in the conversation for 3-4 years and his performance over the last 15 games (since going down 2-1 to the Pacers) leaves no doubt. He doesn't need to equal Mikan's seven Championships (or even his 5 NBA) But he needs to continue to show, as Big George did, that having him means your always a contender.

9. Bean - Like with Mikan, needs a few more titles. He's already peaked higher than Kobe, but Kobe incredible prime longevity (coming up on 15 years now) puts him in a class with guys like Kareem and Karl Malone. Assuming James isn't still elite in 2018 (he could be I suppose) he'll need to make his mark with a shorter, but more dominant run like Shaq, Duncan, Wilt and Bird had...speaking of which.

8. Shaq - It's unlikely that LeBron will ever dominate the way Shaq did from 2000-02, but his durability will allow him to accomplish much more overall if he stays on his current course. Shaq lost out on a lot of potential MVP seasons because he couldn't stay healthy and his stubbornness may have cost him at least one ring. For all of LeBron's flaws, he won his first title at age 27, nine months younger than the Diesel and with three times the MVP hardware . To pass Shaq, add a couple titles and have at least one more monster season and more importantly playoff run.

7. Duncan - I have Duncan above Kobe and Shaq because of his consistency both individually and within the team construct. LeBron's peak, IMO matches Duncan's now that LBJ has a ring. That was the only thing Duncan had done that the King hadn't proven he could do. Now it's about doing what Duncan does best; make your team a contender every year. LeBron is well on his way. Since the surprise run in 2007, James' teams have been legit title contenders every year. Either being eliminated by the eventual Champion or runner-up every season until being crowned last night. James doesn't need anymore hardware, but Duncan won two rings after his MVP peak, James needs to do at least the same.

6. Bird - Bird's run from 84-86 is what puts him above these other guys in the top ten. For that three year stretch many believed he was on his way to becoming the greatest player of all-time and his team in '86 was largely considered the greatest to ever play. Bird had the ability to lift Boston to titles against the even more star-studded Lakers. That being said, Magic eventually overtook Bird. Unless Durant or Howard or another up and coming star has what it takes to surpass James soon. I could see him reeling off two more seasons at an elite level and top five talk, if not GOAT talk, will become a reality.

5. Wilt - If he passes the four guys above, he'll probably get Wilt too. Like Wilt, James is a special talent. It's a big part of why Wilt is so high up. At his very best Wilt was the greatest the game has ever seen. If James gets only one more ring, but his numbers and durability are maintained for 8-10 more seasons, he'll be right below Wilt because Wilt's '67 season was better than James run this year. A few more rings though and even if I still think Wilt's better James will have done more with what he had.

4. Kareem - Like Kareem, LeBron has spent the better part of his prime being the guy that everyone knows is the most talented player but because of intangibles those same folks aren't so sure he's the best player. To catch Kareem LeBron will either need to go on a major run the next 3-5 years or he'll need to play 10 more and match the amazing longevity that Cap showed. Either way he has to win a lot, Kareem was always winning, even if he wasn't always leading, he was rarely standing in the way.

3. Magic - To catch Magic the following must happen: Needs to win back-to-back as the alpha (or something like 3 in 5 years with extenuating circumstances) Needs to continue to be the likable, no nonsense machine Lebron he was during the last two rounds of the playoffs plus. Needs to exceed Magic's longevity (doable) and needs to make his mark in terms of numbers or accolades like Magic did.

2. Russell - Needs to lead a Dynasty. Three in a row or at least five total as the man. Needs to win at least two more MVP's. There are lots of ways you could debate that LeBrons talents are greater than Russell's but the chasm between results is so great and LeBron was failed so many more times than Russell. I think three may be James peak, but at 27 years old with insane durability, you can't count him out yet,

1. Air - Needs to do what he did this year for at least four or five more years. Needs to win 4 or 5 more titles. Needs to go out on top or at the very least on his own terms, not chasing another title or boost to his legacy. Really until he gets a lot closer, this is too hard to look at. They are just in two different stratospheres at the moment. But still, after last night, this is a topic worth discussing.

I'd agree with a lot of this post but anything past moses is incredibly speculative.. sure you can make an educated guess but there's also cultural impacts that Lebron simply can't around with players like Bird/Magic, who saved the NBA, and then Jordan, who then put it on steroids.

[Champ]

:applause:
1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. William Felton Russell
3. Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr.
4. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.
5. Wilton Norman Chamberlain
6. Larry Joe Bird
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan
8. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal
9. Kobe Bean Bryant
10. George Lawerence Mikan Jr.
11. Akeem Abdul Olajuwon
12. Moses Eugene Malone
13. Julius Winfield Erving II
14. LeBron James

What LeBron needs to do to move up:

13. Doc - Right there with him. I can even see myself taking LeBron over Doc by the start of next season. Erving has an edge in terms of prime.peak longevity spending ten seasons among the elite, but James seems sure to get there and LBJ has one thing Doctor J doesn't. An NBA title as the man.

12. Moses - Longevity is all. Another title or even MVP guarantees it. LeBron now has equaled, if not exceeded Moses in terms of prime and peak and he has the accolades and now the hardware to rival him.

11. Dream - Winning back-to-back next season would probably do it. Assuming he also adds another all-NBA first team he have more MVP's, more 1st team selections and better numbers than Hakeem with a prime almost as long and a peak as long. Both made the finals appearance in their early twenties and came back and won a title. James advantage is that he didn't have the 2-3 down seasons Hakeem did.

10. Mikan - Might need two more titles, one for sure. Mikan was essentially the worlds best player for 7-8 years. James could accomplish that, I'd say he's been in the conversation for 3-4 years and his performance over the last 15 games (since going down 2-1 to the Pacers) leaves no doubt. He doesn't need to equal Mikan's seven Championships (or even his 5 NBA) But he needs to continue to show, as Big George did, that having him means your always a contender.

9. Bean - Like with Mikan, needs a few more titles. He's already peaked higher than Kobe, but Kobe incredible prime longevity (coming up on 15 years now) puts him in a class with guys like Kareem and Karl Malone. Assuming James isn't still elite in 2018 (he could be I suppose) he'll need to make his mark with a shorter, but more dominant run like Shaq, Duncan, Wilt and Bird had...speaking of which.

8. Shaq - It's unlikely that LeBron will ever dominate the way Shaq did from 2000-02, but his durability will allow him to accomplish much more overall if he stays on his current course. Shaq lost out on a lot of potential MVP seasons because he couldn't stay healthy and his stubbornness may have cost him at least one ring. For all of LeBron's flaws, he won his first title at age 27, nine months younger than the Diesel and with three times the MVP hardware . To pass Shaq, add a couple titles and have at least one more monster season and more importantly playoff run.

7. Duncan - I have Duncan above Kobe and Shaq because of his consistency both individually and within the team construct. LeBron's peak, IMO matches Duncan's now that LBJ has a ring. That was the only thing Duncan had done that the King hadn't proven he could do. Now it's about doing what Duncan does best; make your team a contender every year. LeBron is well on his way. Since the surprise run in 2007, James' teams have been legit title contenders every year. Either being eliminated by the eventual Champion or runner-up every season until being crowned last night. James doesn't need anymore hardware, but Duncan won two rings after his MVP peak, James needs to do at least the same.

6. Bird - Bird's run from 84-86 is what puts him above these other guys in the top ten. For that three year stretch many believed he was on his way to becoming the greatest player of all-time and his team in '86 was largely considered the greatest to ever play. Bird had the ability to lift Boston to titles against the even more star-studded Lakers. That being said, Magic eventually overtook Bird. Unless Durant or Howard or another up and coming star has what it takes to surpass James soon. I could see him reeling off two more seasons at an elite level and top five talk, if not GOAT talk, will become a reality.

5. Wilt - If he passes the four guys above, he'll probably get Wilt too. Like Wilt, James is a special talent. It's a big part of why Wilt is so high up. At his very best Wilt was the greatest the game has ever seen. If James gets only one more ring, but his numbers and durability are maintained for 8-10 more seasons, he'll be right below Wilt because Wilt's '67 season was better than James run this year. A few more rings though and even if I still think Wilt's better James will have done more with what he had.

4. Kareem - Like Kareem, LeBron has spent the better part of his prime being the guy that everyone knows is the most talented player but because of intangibles those same folks aren't so sure he's the best player. To catch Kareem LeBron will either need to go on a major run the next 3-5 years or he'll need to play 10 more and match the amazing longevity that Cap showed. Either way he has to win a lot, Kareem was always winning, even if he wasn't always leading, he was rarely standing in the way.

3. Magic - To catch Magic the following must happen: Needs to win back-to-back as the alpha (or something like 3 in 5 years with extenuating circumstances) Needs to continue to be the likable, no nonsense machine Lebron he was during the last two rounds of the playoffs plus. Needs to exceed Magic's longevity (doable) and needs to make his mark in terms of numbers or accolades like Magic did.

2. Russell - Needs to lead a Dynasty. Three in a row or at least five total as the man. Needs to win at least two more MVP's. There are lots of ways you could debate that LeBrons talents are greater than Russell's but the chasm between results is so great and LeBron was failed so many more times than Russell. I think three may be James peak, but at 27 years old with insane durability, you can't count him out yet,

1. Air - Needs to do what he did this year for at least four or five more years. Needs to win 4 or 5 more titles. Needs to go out on top or at the very least on his own terms, not chasing another title or boost to his legacy. Really until he gets a lot closer, this is too hard to look at. They are just in two different stratospheres at the moment. But still, after last night, this is a topic worth discussing.

[Pushxx]

The amount of disrespect Wilt, Bird, and Russell get on some all-time lists is absolutely disgusting.

[BlueandGold]

The amount of disrespect Wilt, Bird, and Russell get on some all-time lists is absolutely disgusting.
There's only room for 5 players in the top5. Either way the 6th person is going to get slighted.

[DirtySanchez]

The amount of disrespect Wilt, Bird, and Russell get on some all-time lists is absolutely disgusting.

Birds career was cut short due to his back..,. And Wilt n Russ hard to talk about them because all of us on these boards are to young to know and really just have stats n old tape of some of their games.

[Pushxx]

There's only room for 5 players in the top5. Either way the 6th person is going to get slighted.

Which is why some people have them at #8 or worse LOL

[G.O.A.T]

Which is why some people have them at #8 or worse LOL

I can see someone putting Bird or Wilt outside the top eight. I don't, but I can see it. Both Duncan and Shaq won more and had greater longevity and Hakeem at his peak is a guy many believe (not me) has an argument to be the greatest center of all-time.

[DirtySanchez]

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. William Felton Russell
3. Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr.
4. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.
5. Wilton Norman Chamberlain
6. Larry Joe Bird
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan
8. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal
9. Kobe Bean Bryant
10. George Lawerence Mikan Jr.
11. Akeem Abdul Olajuwon
12. Moses Eugene Malone
13. Julius Winfield Erving II
14. LeBron James

What LeBron needs to do to move up:

13. Doc - Right there with him. I can even see myself taking LeBron over Doc by the start of next season. Erving has an edge in terms of prime.peak longevity spending ten seasons among the elite, but James seems sure to get there and LBJ has one thing Doctor J doesn't. An NBA title as the man.

12. Moses - Longevity is all. Another title or even MVP guarantees it. LeBron now has equaled, if not exceeded Moses in terms of prime and peak and he has the accolades and now the hardware to rival him.

11. Dream - Winning back-to-back next season would probably do it. Assuming he also adds another all-NBA first team he have more MVP's, more 1st team selections and better numbers than Hakeem with a prime almost as long and a peak as long. Both made the finals appearance in their early twenties and came back and won a title. James advantage is that he didn't have the 2-3 down seasons Hakeem did.

10. Mikan - Might need two more titles, one for sure. Mikan was essentially the worlds best player for 7-8 years. James could accomplish that, I'd say he's been in the conversation for 3-4 years and his performance over the last 15 games (since going down 2-1 to the Pacers) leaves no doubt. He doesn't need to equal Mikan's seven Championships (or even his 5 NBA) But he needs to continue to show, as Big George did, that having him means your always a contender.

9. Bean - Like with Mikan, needs a few more titles. He's already peaked higher than Kobe, but Kobe incredible prime longevity (coming up on 15 years now) puts him in a class with guys like Kareem and Karl Malone. Assuming James isn't still elite in 2018 (he could be I suppose) he'll need to make his mark with a shorter, but more dominant run like Shaq, Duncan, Wilt and Bird had...speaking of which.

8. Shaq - It's unlikely that LeBron will ever dominate the way Shaq did from 2000-02, but his durability will allow him to accomplish much more overall if he stays on his current course. Shaq lost out on a lot of potential MVP seasons because he couldn't stay healthy and his stubbornness may have cost him at least one ring. For all of LeBron's flaws, he won his first title at age 27, nine months younger than the Diesel and with three times the MVP hardware . To pass Shaq, add a couple titles and have at least one more monster season and more importantly playoff run.

7. Duncan - I have Duncan above Kobe and Shaq because of his consistency both individually and within the team construct. LeBron's peak, IMO matches Duncan's now that LBJ has a ring. That was the only thing Duncan had done that the King hadn't proven he could do. Now it's about doing what Duncan does best; make your team a contender every year. LeBron is well on his way. Since the surprise run in 2007, James' teams have been legit title contenders every year. Either being eliminated by the eventual Champion or runner-up every season until being crowned last night. James doesn't need anymore hardware, but Duncan won two rings after his MVP peak, James needs to do at least the same.

6. Bird - Bird's run from 84-86 is what puts him above these other guys in the top ten. For that three year stretch many believed he was on his way to becoming the greatest player of all-time and his team in '86 was largely considered the greatest to ever play. Bird had the ability to lift Boston to titles against the even more star-studded Lakers. That being said, Magic eventually overtook Bird. Unless Durant or Howard or another up and coming star has what it takes to surpass James soon. I could see him reeling off two more seasons at an elite level and top five talk, if not GOAT talk, will become a reality.

5. Wilt - If he passes the four guys above, he'll probably get Wilt too. Like Wilt, James is a special talent. It's a big part of why Wilt is so high up. At his very best Wilt was the greatest the game has ever seen. If James gets only one more ring, but his numbers and durability are maintained for 8-10 more seasons, he'll be right below Wilt because Wilt's '67 season was better than James run this year. A few more rings though and even if I still think Wilt's better James will have done more with what he had.

4. Kareem - Like Kareem, LeBron has spent the better part of his prime being the guy that everyone knows is the most talented player but because of intangibles those same folks aren't so sure he's the best player. To catch Kareem LeBron will either need to go on a major run the next 3-5 years or he'll need to play 10 more and match the amazing longevity that Cap showed. Either way he has to win a lot, Kareem was always winning, even if he wasn't always leading, he was rarely standing in the way.

3. Magic - To catch Magic the following must happen: Needs to win back-to-back as the alpha (or something like 3 in 5 years with extenuating circumstances) Needs to continue to be the likable, no nonsense machine Lebron he was during the last two rounds of the playoffs plus. Needs to exceed Magic's longevity (doable) and needs to make his mark in terms of numbers or accolades like Magic did.

2. Russell - Needs to lead a Dynasty. Three in a row or at least five total as the man. Needs to win at least two more MVP's. There are lots of ways you could debate that LeBrons talents are greater than Russell's but the chasm between results is so great and LeBron was failed so many more times than Russell. I think three may be James peak, but at 27 years old with insane durability, you can't count him out yet,

1. Air - Needs to do what he did this year for at least four or five more years. Needs to win 4 or 5 more titles. Needs to go out on top or at the very least on his own terms, not chasing another title or boost to his legacy. Really until he gets a lot closer, this is too hard to look at. They are just in two different stratospheres at the moment. But still, after last night, this is a topic worth discussing.

Great read bro...I would change your rankings a bit but not much. I'm gunna share this on my Facebook page.

[Miller for 3]

How are ppl ranking Lebron over Dr.J? Complete lack of knowledge of the game, ignorance, or stupidity?

This is Dr. J's best championship run, in a much more competitive and physical league mind you.

35 ppg, 13rp, 5apg, 2spg, 2bpg on 61 TS%

Think about that

In his first NBA Finals he put up 30/7/5 on 54% shooting, and he was a far superior defender to Lebron (idk why people don't watch him play, his help defense was amazing, almost Kirilenko-esque)

[oolalaa]

@


Hakeem basically built his entire career on outplaying Ewing in the '94 Finals, and crushing D-Rob in the '95 playoffs.

I somewhat agree. However, you can't discount him leading a team with ZERO All-NBA players to the finals in only his second season (They bested the defending champs!), and, you certainly can't discount how mediocre his teammates were in the late 80s. I mean, christ, his 2 best teammates between '85 & '95 were Ralph 'I wanna be a shooting guard' Sampson and 1 season with a past his prime Drexler.


You will never convince me that he outplayed Shaq in the '95 Finals (although his ZERO all-stars BADLY outplayed Shaq's teammates.)

Did you watch the finals??

Don't give me the "Shaq's teammates sucked" crap. This is where things like competitiveness and leadership rub off on your teammates. Hakeem's teammates believed in Hakeem. They knew he had what it took to get the job done - they had seen it the previous year. Hakeem just wanted it more than Shaq.

Shaq was still young, raw and a little immature. He was a dominant player but his contributions didn't go beyond the stat sheet. He wasn't a great leader at that point. It striked me that he was just glad to be there. Your teammates sense things like that. If they aren't convinced they have a chance to win, then they more than likely won't play up to standard.

And, besides, even if we take teammates out of the equation, then Hakeem still UNDENIABLY outplayed Shaq. He made all of the 'Game winning plays'. He tipped in the game winner in game 1. He crushed Shaq in the 1st half of game 2, which led to an insurmountable lead for Houston by the 3rd quarter. He outplayed Shaq in crunch time of game 4, scoring 6 straight points on him, to ice it and clinch his 2nd straight title.

And, don't forget, the Magic had HCA. Shaq got SWEPT with home court advantage!!

Box scores LIE. They just do.


And Moses won three MVPs, and was arguably the most dominant player from '79 thru '85 in the league.

I notice that you've used the word "Dominant" rather than "Best". Maybe you're hedging your bets? Look, Moses was definitely the leagues best and most dominant player form '81 - '83, but, for whatever inexplicable reason, his game dramatically declined from 83/84 onwards. He wasn't even on Bird's or magic's level by that point. Heck, he wasn't better than Bernard King, either.

'79 and '80? 1. Kareem, 2. Moses, 3. Dr J

The biggest gripe I have about Moses' game was his passing, and unwillingness to pass, frankly. Out of all the great Centers who have ever played, he was BY FAR the worst passer/playmaker/facilitator. I mean, seriously, let's go down the list....

The top 15 centers of all time are;

1. Bill Russell

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

6. Moses Malone

7. Bill Walton
8. David Robinson
9. Patrick Ewing
10. Dave Cowens
11. Willis Reed

12. Bob McAdoo
13. Dwight Howard

14. Wes Unseld
15. Nate Thurmond

Out of the 12 greatest centers, he is BY FAAAAAR the worst, and it's not even close!! From '81 - '83, his assist to turnover ratio was 1.6/3.7. For his career it's 1.4/3.1 Are you freaking kidding me?? He was the ultimate 'black hole'.

That might just be the main reason why Hakeem >> Moses, to me. He was just a much better all round center. Better defensively, much better shot blocker, got you 2 steals a game, much better passer and at LEAST equal in the scoring department (I am being exceedingly generous here. Hakeem has a clear edge in the scoring department as far as I'm concerned). Moses was a much beter rebounder, but that doesn't make up for the rest.


Meanwhile, Hakeem won ONE MVP

Steve Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq combined.


And Moses was more statistically dominant, as well. At his peak he was pouring in 31.1 ppg, shooting .540, and grabbing 17.6 rpg.

That was ONE season (A season in which he FLOPPED in the 1st round vs the Sonics, averaging just 24ppg on 43% shooting). He didn't come anywhere near that scoring peak again.

You say Hakeem's legacy rests on his '94 & '95 playoff runs? I say Moses's legacy rests on 1 regular season and 1 ring on an embarassingly loaded team.

[necya]

hm, seems to be a summer troll party on ish :rolleyes:

[oolalaa]

How are ppl ranking Lebron over Dr.J? Complete lack of knowledge of the game, ignorance, or stupidity?

This is Dr. J's best championship run, in a much more competitive and physical league mind you.

35 ppg, 13rp, 5apg, 2spg, 2bpg on 61 TS%

Think about that

In his first NBA Finals he put up 30/7/5 on 54% shooting, and he was a far superior defender to Lebron (idk why people don't watch him play, his help defense was amazing, almost Kirilenko-esque)

Wat u bin smoking?

He acheived that feat in the ABA!!. Calling the ABA a "much more competitive and physical league" is like calling the MLS more competitve than the Premier League (i.e Pretty ****ing stoopid).

Dr J was a very, very, very, very, very, very, very good player but was never as dominant as Lebron has been for the last couple of years (Save that inexplicable finals last year). He was never, ever the best player in the league, at any point....EVER! His all round game pails in comparison to Bron's - worse shooter, much worse playmaker, worse defensively (Undeniable) and no where near as versatile. The Dr was a slightly better shot blocker - that's the only thing he has over Bron.

[Miller for 3]

What you bin smoking?

He acheived that feat in the ABA!!. Calling the ABA a "much more competitive and physical league" is like calling the MLS more competitve than the Premier League (i.e Pretty ****ing stoopid).

Dr J was a very, very, very, very, very, very, very good player but was never as dominant as Lebron has been for the last couple of years (Save that inexplicable finals last year). He was never, ever the best player in the league, at any point....EVER! His all round game pails in comparison to Bron's - worse shooter, much worse playmaker, worse defensively (Undeniable) and no where near as versatile. The Dr was a slightly better shot blocker - that's the only thing he has over Bron.

This post screams ignorance. Dr. J was a superior defender, watch the games. Lebron has trouble guarding guys like Marion and Deng who can't even dribble. J was close as a playmaker as well. Just because he doesn't get to hold the ball 15+ seconds every shot clock doesn't mean he couldn't create. His one handed rifle passes were legendary. So he's a superior slasher, defender, rebounder and post player. Worse shooter, by a good margin, and slightly worse passer. I see Erving having a big edge overall

[Lebron23]

What you bin smoking?

He acheived that feat in the ABA!!. Calling the ABA a "much more competitive and physical league" is like calling the MLS more competitve than the Premier League (i.e Pretty ****ing stoopid).

Dr J was a very, very, very, very, very, very, very good player but was never as dominant as Lebron has been for the last couple of years (Save that inexplicable finals last year). He was never, ever the best player in the league, at any point....EVER! His all round game pails in comparison to Bron's - worse shooter, much worse playmaker, worse defensively (Undeniable) and no where near as versatile. The Dr was a slightly better shot blocker - that's the only thing he has over Bron.


The guy don't know $hit about basketball. The NBA is a superior league than the ABA.

[Miller for 3]

The guy don't know $hit about basketball. The NBA is a superior league than the ABA.

LOL! ABA in 76 > NBA now. Teams like the Pacers are a 3 seed now, that's a joke! Back to the kitchen for you

[Lebron23]

This post screams ignorance. Dr. J was a superior defender, watch the games. Lebron has trouble guarding guys like Marion and Deng who can't even dribble. J was close as a playmaker as well. Just because he doesn't get to hold the ball 15+ seconds every shot clock doesn't mean he couldn't create. His one handed rifle passes were legendary. So he's a superior slasher, defender, rebounder and post player. Worse shooter, by a good margin, and slightly worse passer. I see Erving having a big edge overall


You didn't watch Prime Julius Erving. I watched some of his games on youtube. LeBron already has a better career than Dr. J.

3x NBA MVP. 1x NBA Champion, and 1x Finals MVP >>> 1x NBA MVP, and NBA champion as a 2nd scoring option.

Welcome back to this forum Mr. Forrest Gump.

[Lebron23]

LOL! ABA in 76 > NBA now. Teams like the Pacers are a 3 seed now, that's a joke! Back to the kitchen for you


You're very stupid. Pacers are better than your Lakers. NBA today >>>> 1970's ABA. Back to my Kitchen. I want a bacon and egg sandwich with a Diet Coke.

[Miller for 3]

You didn't watch Prime Julius Erving. I watched some of his games on youtube. LeBron already has a better career than Dr. J.

3x NBA MVP. 1x NBA Champion, and 1x Finals MVP >>> 1x NBA MVP, and NBA champion as a 2nd scoring option.

Welcome back to this forum Mr. Forrest Gump.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

Gimme a break. J was a superior player, take it from someone who actually watched him unbiasedly.

Naming accolades :roll: :roll: And I'm a Pacers fan you bandwagon troll. Even I recognize what a joke of an era this is when Joe Johnson is a 5 time allstar and the Pacers are a 3 seed. :facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

How are ppl ranking Lebron over Dr.J? Complete lack of knowledge of the game, ignorance, or stupidity?

This is Dr. J's best championship run, in a much more competitive and physical league mind you.

35 ppg, 13rp, 5apg, 2spg, 2bpg on 61 TS%

Think about that

In his first NBA Finals he put up 30/7/5 on 54% shooting, and he was a far superior defender to Lebron (idk why people don't watch him play, his help defense was amazing, almost Kirilenko-esque)

A couple things...

1) I have them 13/14 all-time with Doc ahead at the moment. To suggest it isn't close is not being realistic, regardless of who you prefer.

2) The ABA is 1976 was not a better league than the NBA ins today. That was a league falling apart. The guy who shared the 1975 MVP with Doc (and posted better numbers that year) left for the NBA before the season. It was the last year of the ABA. Neither league during the first half of the seventies was very good. There were almost 30 professional teams and a talent pool half the size of today's (being generous)

3) Doc was not, by any measure, a far superior defender to LeBron. Erving was named to one all-defensive team his entire career. James has made four in a row and some people think he's the best defender in the league. I'm sure you think that's exaggerating it, and I agree, but those are the facts and based on that alone it's again, at least debatable.

[Lebron23]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

Gimme a break. J was a superior player, take it from someone who actually watched him unbiasedly.

Naming accolades :roll: :roll: And I'm a Pacers fan you bandwagon troll. Even I recognize what a joke of an era this is when Joe Johnson is a 5 time allstar and the Pacers are a 3 seed. :facepalm


You are a funny guy. This is the best era since MJ retired in 1998. Heat will continue destroying the Pacers for many, many more years to come.

We Da bessssssssss!!!!

[Miller for 3]

You are a funny guy. This is the best era since MJ retired in 1998. Heat will continue destroying the Pacers for many, many more years to come.

We Da bessssssssss!!!!


:roll: :roll:

Heat won a fixed title in a weak lockout year when the reigning MVP and most best center were hurt. I got to watch the Pacers win two real titles in far superior leagues

And to the guy naming all defense teams as proof of being a good defender, stop trolling. Marion never made a defense team, so i guess CP3 is a better defender than him? :biggums: Dr. J was a far better help defender, which wasn't as appreciated at the time. Watch the games (83 Finals is a good place to start, and this is an injured past prime Erving wrecking havoc on the passing lanes and weakside)

[Lebron23]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1100470.1340349051!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg

When was the last time the Pacers won an NBA Championship?

[pauk]

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. William Felton Russell
3. Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr.
4. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.
5. Wilton Norman Chamberlain
6. Larry Joe Bird
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan
8. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal
9. Kobe Bean Bryant
10. George Lawerence Mikan Jr.
11. Akeem Abdul Olajuwon
12. Moses Eugene Malone
13. Julius Winfield Erving II
14. LeBron James

What LeBron needs to do to move up:

13. Doc - Right there with him. I can even see myself taking LeBron over Doc by the start of next season. Erving has an edge in terms of prime.peak longevity spending ten seasons among the elite, but James seems sure to get there and LBJ has one thing Doctor J doesn't. An NBA title as the man.

12. Moses - Longevity is all. Another title or even MVP guarantees it. LeBron now has equaled, if not exceeded Moses in terms of prime and peak and he has the accolades and now the hardware to rival him.

11. Dream - Winning back-to-back next season would probably do it. Assuming he also adds another all-NBA first team he have more MVP's, more 1st team selections and better numbers than Hakeem with a prime almost as long and a peak as long. Both made the finals appearance in their early twenties and came back and won a title. James advantage is that he didn't have the 2-3 down seasons Hakeem did.

10. Mikan - Might need two more titles, one for sure. Mikan was essentially the worlds best player for 7-8 years. James could accomplish that, I'd say he's been in the conversation for 3-4 years and his performance over the last 15 games (since going down 2-1 to the Pacers) leaves no doubt. He doesn't need to equal Mikan's seven Championships (or even his 5 NBA) But he needs to continue to show, as Big George did, that having him means your always a contender.

9. Bean - Like with Mikan, needs a few more titles. He's already peaked higher than Kobe, but Kobe incredible prime longevity (coming up on 15 years now) puts him in a class with guys like Kareem and Karl Malone. Assuming James isn't still elite in 2018 (he could be I suppose) he'll need to make his mark with a shorter, but more dominant run like Shaq, Duncan, Wilt and Bird had...speaking of which.

8. Shaq - It's unlikely that LeBron will ever dominate the way Shaq did from 2000-02, but his durability will allow him to accomplish much more overall if he stays on his current course. Shaq lost out on a lot of potential MVP seasons because he couldn't stay healthy and his stubbornness may have cost him at least one ring. For all of LeBron's flaws, he won his first title at age 27, nine months younger than the Diesel and with three times the MVP hardware . To pass Shaq, add a couple titles and have at least one more monster season and more importantly playoff run.

7. Duncan - I have Duncan above Kobe and Shaq because of his consistency both individually and within the team construct. LeBron's peak, IMO matches Duncan's now that LBJ has a ring. That was the only thing Duncan had done that the King hadn't proven he could do. Now it's about doing what Duncan does best; make your team a contender every year. LeBron is well on his way. Since the surprise run in 2007, James' teams have been legit title contenders every year. Either being eliminated by the eventual Champion or runner-up every season until being crowned last night. James doesn't need anymore hardware, but Duncan won two rings after his MVP peak, James needs to do at least the same.

6. Bird - Bird's run from 84-86 is what puts him above these other guys in the top ten. For that three year stretch many believed he was on his way to becoming the greatest player of all-time and his team in '86 was largely considered the greatest to ever play. Bird had the ability to lift Boston to titles against the even more star-studded Lakers. That being said, Magic eventually overtook Bird. Unless Durant or Howard or another up and coming star has what it takes to surpass James soon. I could see him reeling off two more seasons at an elite level and top five talk, if not GOAT talk, will become a reality.

5. Wilt - If he passes the four guys above, he'll probably get Wilt too. Like Wilt, James is a special talent. It's a big part of why Wilt is so high up. At his very best Wilt was the greatest the game has ever seen. If James gets only one more ring, but his numbers and durability are maintained for 8-10 more seasons, he'll be right below Wilt because Wilt's '67 season was better than James run this year. A few more rings though and even if I still think Wilt's better James will have done more with what he had.

4. Kareem - Like Kareem, LeBron has spent the better part of his prime being the guy that everyone knows is the most talented player but because of intangibles those same folks aren't so sure he's the best player. To catch Kareem LeBron will either need to go on a major run the next 3-5 years or he'll need to play 10 more and match the amazing longevity that Cap showed. Either way he has to win a lot, Kareem was always winning, even if he wasn't always leading, he was rarely standing in the way.

3. Magic - To catch Magic the following must happen: Needs to win back-to-back as the alpha (or something like 3 in 5 years with extenuating circumstances) Needs to continue to be the likable, no nonsense machine Lebron he was during the last two rounds of the playoffs plus. Needs to exceed Magic's longevity (doable) and needs to make his mark in terms of numbers or accolades like Magic did.

2. Russell - Needs to lead a Dynasty. Three in a row or at least five total as the man. Needs to win at least two more MVP's. There are lots of ways you could debate that LeBrons talents are greater than Russell's but the chasm between results is so great and LeBron was failed so many more times than Russell. I think three may be James peak, but at 27 years old with insane durability, you can't count him out yet,

1. Air - Needs to do what he did this year for at least four or five more years. Needs to win 4 or 5 more titles. Needs to go out on top or at the very least on his own terms, not chasing another title or boost to his legacy. Really until he gets a lot closer, this is too hard to look at. They are just in two different stratospheres at the moment. But still, after last night, this is a topic worth discussing.

Fantastic my man.... the only thing i dont like is the George Mikan thing....

[caliman]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird
9. West
10. Shaq
11. Dream
12. Moses
13. LeBron

[pauk]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird
9. West
10. Shaq
11. Dream
12. Moses
13. LeBron

You screwed it up big time after Wilt

:no:

[oolalaa]

ShaqAttack3234


And this title means more than a title would've last year to me. He had a much more impressive title run, and had to do more because Wade was a top 3-4 player last season, and Bosh was healthy, and he's a top 15-20 player giving Lebron a ton of help, he had more help in '11 than any of the actual superstars who won titles since probably the 80's.

But with Wade's prime appearing to be over, and his decline starting, I'm not sure he's even a top 5 player, and Bosh of course missed 9 of Miami's 14 playoff games. Which is why Lebron went from averaging 24/8/6 on 47% in last years playoffs to 30/10/6 on 50% in this years playoffs.

So now, his help didn't look that unusual. Granted, he did have Bosh back for the end of the Boston series, and a healthy, productive Bosh for the finals, plus the role players started stepping up when Bosh went down.

Yep, it's kinda funny. Absolutely everyone was saying, when he initially joined the Heat, that his rings "Won't count becuase he has Wade and Bosh". He's basically proven that all he needed in Cleveland was a legit second scoring option, to ease the pressure (You could, of course, argue that he wasn't mentally strong enough to win a title between '09 & '11 but I've always thought that he became massively disillusioned with the lack of talent around him, that he had to do absolutely EVERYTHING on that Cleveland team. That's not exactly a great excuse - Hakeem won a title with a cast similar to Bron's in '09 & '10 - but I think a great second option would have helped considerably, and he'd probably still be in Cleveland now. Of course, when he joined Miami, the pressure ratcheted up to obscene levels and he couldn't handle it, which affected him in the finals, last year)

Wade, this year, has been no better than Sam Jones was between '63 & '66 or Pippen between '91 & '93 or even Pau Gasol in '09 & '10! (Lebron was sub par shooting the ball in the playoffs but, holy moly, Wade couldn't throw it into the Atlantic from one of Micky Arison's multi million pound yachts). He was certainly worse than McHale in '86 and Kareem in '85 and Kobe in '02 and even a Dave Cowens in '74.

[oolalaa]

You screwed it up big time after Wilt

:no:

Hey, at least he appreciates Jerry west. Not many do, including you.

[Dave3]

Ummm yeah I'd rather rank a player based on sustained longevity playing at an elite level. If bet there tons of players in NBA history if I take their 2-3 best years I can make an argument for the top 20 of all time. Sorry but give me the player who can obtain success throughout a whole career over someone who does it for a short period of time.

I'm not saying you take the best year of each player. I'm saying that the peak/prime is the most important factor. If someone puts up a great 4 seasons in an 8 year career, it's worth more than someone who put up 15 good seasons but none great. Looking at the greatest players ever, it's always peak>longevity. Jordan had 12 seasons before being called the GOAT, and was actually argued as the GOAT after his first retirement, only playing 9 seasons total. Bird and Magic had 11 great years, but their legacy was cemented long before their final few seasons. Shaq's ranking in history hasn't changed much (if at all) since 2005, his 11th year in the league, and in everything used to rank Olajuwan is from his first 10 years. The reason those guys are ranked so highly is because of how well they played, not how long they played.

LeBron is done 9 seasons, 8 of which have been All NBA, 4 of which are All NBA Defense first team, 6 All NBA first team, 3 MVPs, a scoring title, and a finals MVP. It's not how long you're in the league, it's how much you can accomplish while in it. If a guy can win more in 7 years than someone else did in 14 good years, it makes no sense at all to rank the latter over the former.

[Kurosawa0]

Let's see:

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. LeBron
13. Oscar
14. Jerry West
15. Dr. J

[Math2]

OP post should be titled "75 reasons I Know Nothing About Basketball"

[arifgokcen]

Right now i have him #12 too.If he wins another ring he will be top 10 and i think he will move ahead of moses malone hakeem and kobe.Another MVP and DPOY award is the next thing he should look to add to his accolades.

[oolalaa]

OP post should be titled "75 reasons I Know Nothing About Basketball"

Hey, maybe you're right.


BTW, you still think Eli Manning isn't a top 10 QB? They should have benched him after like 4 games last season, right?? :roll: :banana:

[Alamo]

It's still too early for me to rank Lebron's career, he is still young and has a lot of basketball ahead of him. But I think he'll easily be in the top 10 by the time his career is nearly over.

[arifgokcen]

It's still too early for me to rank Lebron's career, he is still young and has a lot of basketball ahead of him. But I think he'll easily be in the top 10 by the time his career is nearly over.

A lot of fans have him in their #10 right now including nba great like oscar,magic and other retired nba players as well.We all knew he had the potential.

[DirtySanchez]

My List.....

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Dr. J
13. Oscar
14. LeBron
15. West

I want to talk about Kobe at second...

I have him over Shaq because of the longevity factor and work ethic...I also got him over Duncan because Duncan never lead a team back to back. Kobe was the main option on a team that went to the Finals three times in a row in a tough WC. He also did it with one of his 7 footers being injured all three Finals and his team was 2-1. That is dominance right there.

[Alamo]

A lot of fans have him in their #10 right now including nba great like oscar,magic and other retired nba players as well.We all knew he had the potential.


Skill/talent wise maybe. But all-time lists are usually the ranking of career accomplishments. Lebron is a great player but I think it's weird that people rank him so high when his career isn't even close to over.

[Ancient Legend]

So most think Duncan is better than Hakeem? :no:
Anyone would pick a prime Hakeem over a prime TD. Their accomplishments are almost the same, but Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player than Duncan.

[Pushxx]

So most think Duncan is better than Hakeem? :no:
Anyone would pick a prime Hakeem over a prime TD. Their accomplishments are almost the same, but Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player than Duncan.

There's your error, and that's the difference between the two. Duncan's career accomplishments are a bit more extensive than Hakeem's.

Peak Hakeem > Peak Duncan, but that isn't enough to put him over Duncan on the all-time list.

[RRR3]

OP, don't pretend like you weren't a LeBron hater before he won a ring. :no:

[RRR3]

I have Lebron 11th, and it seems like that's where he'll stay on my list, but he has a shot at slipping in to the top 10. He won't end up in my top 5 now.

As of right now, the following are the guys I believe were better, and absolutely no more.

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Wilt and Kobe.

He really is phenomenal, like him or not. And accomplished the only thing he had left to accomplish.

And this title means more than a title would've last year to me. He had a much more impressive title run, and had to do more because Wade was a top 3-4 player last season, and Bosh was healthy, and he's a top 15-20 player giving Lebron a ton of help, he had more help in '11 than any of the actual superstars who won titles since probably the 80's.

But with Wade's prime appearing to be over, and his decline starting, I'm not sure he's even a top 5 player, and Bosh of course missed 9 of Miami's 14 playoff games. Which is why Lebron went from averaging 24/8/6 on 47% in last years playoffs to 30/10/6 on 50% in this years playoffs.

So now, his help didn't look that unusual. Granted, he did have Bosh back for the end of the Boston series, and a healthy, productive Bosh for the finals, plus the role players started stepping up when Bosh went down. And their path to the finals wasn't difficult with a Knick team who had injuries and lacked chemistry, a flawed Indiana team who pretty much gave games away with painfully embarrassing mistakes(particularly Paul George), and a very old Boston team with Pierce finally looking old, Allen also looking old and struggling with injuries, Pietrus killing the team with his non-existent basketball IQ and really nobody playing well except for KG, Rondo and Bass as well as a key role player Avery Bradley being out. Out of Boston's playoff rotation, KG, Rondo and Bass were the only players to shoot over 40%.

But the guy just had a phenomenal playoff run, accomplished the number 1 goal, and only true goal in basketball, and he's without question the best player in basketball.

The fact that Lebron has been the best player in the league for 4 seasons(how many players have done that?) is a big reason for me to rank him top 11.




Cut the bullsh*t. Moses has NO case over Hakeem.

Hakeem won more with MUCH less help. How many players had the help Moses did from '83-'85 in their primes? And Moses lost in the 1st round in '84 with a team more talented than anyone just about any great center has had in their prime, and then lost with an even more talented team in '85 to a Celtics team with an injured Bird, and while the Celtics did have a lot of talent, a reason they were great is because Bird was by far the best player in the league from '84 to '86.

Hakeem was a better scorer than Moses, he was used as a playmaker and facilitator in the post, which Houston's offense relied on because they played a 4 out/1 in with shootrs spacing the floor, and Hakeem is a top 5 defensive player of all time, a MUCH better defender than Moses. Moses only had rebounding on Hakeem.

Outside of '81 and '83, Moses did nothing special in the playoffs(and even in '81, he did not have a very good finals), and was extremely disappointing in '82, '84 and '85.

Hakeem is also one of the great playoff performers. His '94 and '95 runs compare to anyone to play the game, he was just as good in '93, and should've been an absolutely LOADED Sonics team with a cast that wasn't special.

Look at what Hakeem did BEFORE HIS PRIME in the playoffs. When he was a raw second year player in '86 who had only been playing basketball since his mid teens, he upset a loaded Laker team and took the greatest team ever, the '86 Celtics to 6 with his inferior team. During that run, he averaged 27/11 with 3.5 bpg on 53% shooting.

In '87, with a deteriorating cast due to Sampson's injuries, he put up 49/25/6 in double OT in game 6 of the WCSF and would've taken them to 7 if not for a BS non call on a goal tend that would've given him a shot at a 3 point play(he made both free throws instead), and Sampson missing a key free throw.

In '88, he had the misfortune of facing a stacked Mavs team(more talented than just about any 00's title team for reference), a team that took Magic's loaded Lakers to 7, and Hakeem averaged 38/17 on 57% in the series. Can you blame him for losing that one?

The guy flat out brought it in the playoffs, as well as anyone I've seen.

He was the least fortunate player in the top 10 as far as casts.

Hakeem>>>Moses

And you don't "win" MVPs, you get voted MVP, they're subjective. And it's a joke to rank players based on the media's flawed award. Hakeem should've been MVP in '93 as well, and as far as I'm concerned, he was. Moses got one he didn't deserve in '79, btw.
LeBron will pass Kobe easily at this rate. C'mon now.

[oolalaa]

OP, don't pretend like you weren't a LeBron hater before he won a ring. :no:

lebron hater?? I've never, ever been a Lebron hater.

I was a big lebron >>> Kobe guy in '09, '10 (yes, in spite of his game 5/6 meltdown vs Boston) and all of '11....until the NBA finals came around, where he inexplicably disappeared down the stretch of EVERY SINGLE GAME. It was the worst choke job in NBA history.

It was last years finals, and Durants emergence as a great all round player, as well as the best crunch time scorer in the league, that led me to say that Durant >>> Lebron throughout all this year. I WAS WRONG. Durant severly disappointed me in the last 3 games. His defense was poor (He was swiping at the ball way too often), he had way too many turnovers and Lebron absolutely crushed him on the boards (In game 4, he had ZERO rebounds going into the 4th quarter! Are you kidding me KD??).


look, I predicted, way back in January, that the Heat would beat OKC in 5 games. I was exactly right. I'm happy Lebron won. No one deserves the amount of pressure and scrutiny that he's has been under the last 2 seasons.

[RonArtestsBalls]

In terms of his career, Lebron is probably only just making the top 20.

In terms of pure talent and what he does on the court on a nightly basis, he's top 5 for me. Easily.

[Sarcastic]

Good one... i have it something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Moses
12. Lebron
13. Oscar
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving / Karl Malone

Wow I actually almost completely agree with this list, except I have Magic at 3 and Kareem at 5.

[bizil]

Even though I have Bron number 11 all time, I feel Dr. J is an interesting cat when it comes to the GOAT shit. Due to Doc being in the ABA, he somewhat gets penalized in the GOAT rankings. If u include his ABA credentials, he STILL has more career points than any SF ever. He has more total championships than Bird. Doc was the first guy who gave the NBA the look to the future in terms of ambassador shit and marketing.

By the time the NBA really got that side really going strong, Doc was declining, but still one of the premier SF's or swingmen in the L. So Doc tends to get docked on the these kinds of lists. But if u factor ABA shit, Doc actually still has a case as the GOAT SF over Bird, Bron, and Hondo. But the ABA stuff is still somewhat controversial, so Doc tends to get rated number two at that highest at the SF. But due to what Bron has just accomplished, I actually have Bron ranked as the second GOAT SF over Doc.

It was kinda hard to me to reach that conclusion. But current value vs. Doc's peak value, I would take Bron over Doc. Bron as 3 NBA MVP's to Doc's 1. Bron has a NBA ring to match Doc. And Bron has been the face of the L for some years as well. Even though Kareem and arguably Moses was the best player in the L during many of Doc's prime years, Doc was STILL regarded as the face of the L and the most marketable star. But depending on how ABA shit is weighed, I would still have Bron under Doc on the GOAT list. However, given the NBA is the ultimate league, Bron has accomplished just as much or more than Doc in the NBA, and at this point deserves to be just under Bird GOAT SF wise. However, I do hate the fact that many felt it was just a given that Bron vs. Bird was the ultimate collision course for GOAT SF. Cause to be frank. Doc being in the ABA for some years helped Bird ascend to the GOAT SF faster than normal. Im not saying Bird wasn't worthy, but Doc in the NBA or ABA was the premier SF and perimeter player in the world for years until Bird came into his own.

[cltcfn2924]

You mean the Chamberlain who played in 29 playoff series, and was arguably never outplayed in any of them? The Wilt who, in his scoring prime, averaged 33 ppg 26 rpg and shot .505 in his six post-seasons? The Wilt, who thru his first seven post-seasons, covering 67 games (and 35 against Russell) averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shot .515 (in league's that shot .426 on average in that span), along with 8+ bpg...AND dramatically reduced his opposing centers numbers? And he was outscored in 3 of those 67 games (and only ONE in his first 52, covering his "scoring" prime) while seldom being outrebounded. And in MANY of those games, he was just crushing his peers.

This Chamberlain?

Idiotic. How many rings did he have during the Russell years? Did you even watch any of those games? Stat padding < winning rings.

[bizil]

I see many have Bron over Big O and I won't argue too hard with that. But when u think about it. But I still have Big O one spot ahead of Bron on the GOAT list. Bron will most likely pass O by, but I can't quite give him the nod just yet. Big O has a ring just like Bron, and was the most complete all around player in the L just like Bron. Big O's problem was he had many of his prime years with Wilt around. Or he had Russell around winning all of those rings. But in that era, I feel Big O was flat out the second best player of his era just behind Wilt. Bron happens to be hitting his peak right now. But I would never argue Bron over Big O, even though I still have Big O over Bron GOAT wise by a spot.

[alenleomessi]

lebron > wilt

[trabash]

In terms of pure talent, skill and abilities LeBron is easily top 3. Probably the best to ever play the game.