1986 Larry Bird vs 2012 LeBron James

[1987_Lakers]

Who is the better player?

[pauk]

Lebron, he just accomplished more this year and he does & did more in the game on both ends...

[t-rex]

I love my Celtics. But the difference is defense. LBJ can guard any position. Bird couldn't.

[1987_Lakers]

bump.

[Round Mound]

I love my Celtics. But the difference is defense. LBJ can guard any position. Bird couldn't.

Bird had One of the Highest Defensive Ratings (Individual) for a a SF even ranked 2nd in the League Once. He Ranked 1st In 2 Play-Off Runs too. Bird guards the Post Better than Lebron.

Bird achieved this in His Title Run:

24.0 PPG 48.2% FG, 9.7 RPG, 9.5 APG & 2.7 SPG

[Bernie Nips]

Bird's run was better, but he'd done it before and had more confidence... that's not taking anything away from LeBron though. He has every chance to improve and challenge Bird from here.

[RaininTwos]

I'd have to re-watch Bird's run before making a decision. Been a while.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'll take '86 Bird over any version of Lebron. Lebron is the better defender, though Bird wasn't a bad defender. Bird's man to man defense wasn't great, but his help defense/team defense was very good. He made the proper rotations in the paint to consistently contest shots even though he wasn't a prolific shot blocker, he was an excellent double teamer, and his anticipation was phenomenal. A very smart defender, which is why he made several all-defensive second teams. Lebron has the clear edge there, but that's Lebron's only advantage outside of the big athleticism advantage and big weight advantage. Well, he has the advantage as a ball handler as well. Of course it goes hand in hand with athleticism, but Lebron is also the superior open court player and finisher. He's nowhere near as creative, though.

But Bird was the vastly superior shooter, he moved much better without the ball, and he was so much more skilled and crafty. Had a much better post game, had those left-handed and right-handed floaters too. Lebron's in between game, mid-range game and short range game has really improved in Miami, but he's not in Bird's class.

Bird was also the best passing forward of all time, as good as Lebron is in that area, Bird is better. And Bird was also arguably the greatest rebounding small forward of all time, which is where he has another significant advantage over Lebron. Unlike Lebron, Bird was a very good offensive rebounder, though I was pleasantly surprised with Lebron's offensive rebounding throughout these playoffs.

As far as numbers? They're pretty close. Don't see how they determine much with Bird averaging 30/9/8, 2.1 spg on 52/41/93 shooting, while Lebron averaged 30/10/6, 1.9 spg on 50/26/73 shooting.

But Bird was far less ball-dominant than Lebron, which has to be factored in when looking at stats. This was due to Bird's skill set, and also who he played with. Bird played with Kevin McHale, a top 5 player himself, who had probably surpassed Kareem as the best post player in the league, and was probably one of the top 5 scorers period. McHale averaged 25/9/3, 2.4 bpg on 58% shooting while playing elite defense, particularly vs Nique in the ECSF. And Boston took advantage of McHale's talents in the post which limited Bird's numbers. He also had the unbelievable center duo of Robert Parish, and Bill Walton. Walton could still do everything you could possibly want a center to do, just in shorter stretches, and Parish had the unstoppable turnaround, so both were guys who got the ball in the post. Then you had hall of famer Dennis Johnson and a dead-eye shooter in Danny Ainge, both of whom could play either guard position, so again, Bird averaging 30+ wasn't necessary.

A big part of the Celtics tremendous halfcourt offense, and the fact that they were the best passing team ever(and best team ever) is Bird. He was their best passer, and probably the best passer in the game not named Magic Johnson, and it seemed to be contagious.

I've seen quite a few '86 Celtics regular season games, and their entire playoff run, except I haven't completed the Milwaukee series, and I can say that Bird was remarkably consistent in the postseason. The numbers suggest that too. But regardless of numbers, he just put on a clinic in the '86 ECSF, completely humiliating Nique, faking him out of his shoes, doing whatever he wanted ect.

1st round- 28/8/8, 1.7 spg, 1.3 bpg, 53 FG%, 40 3P%, 83 FT%, 3 games
semifinals- 27/10/7, 1.8 spg, 53 FG%, 33 3P%, 96 FT%
conference finals- 25/10/8, 1.8 spg, 55 FG%, 50 3P%, 95 FT%
finals- 24/10/10, 2.7 spg, 48 FG%, 35 3P%, 94 FT%

Doesn't get much more consistent than that. Bird's season numbers were 26/10/7, 2 spg, 1 bpg, 50/42/90 shooting, but those are deceptive because he injured his back in the offseason paving his mother's driveway, which of course bothered him the rest of the year, but his stats were lowered early because of it. For example, Bird was averaging an uncharacteristic 24/9/6 on 45% through Christmas and 27/10/7 on 52/45/88 shooting the rest of the season.

And he had that amazing triple double streak midseason. He had 31/15/11 vs Seattle, followed by 47/14/11 vs Portland the next game. 2 games later he had 36/12/11, and the game after the next, he has 30/11/12 followed by 24/18/13, narrowly misses a third straight triple double with 22/9/9, but then adds another with 20/13/12. And these games primarily came with McHale out. Talk about stepping up when your best teammate goes out, he had 6 triple doubles in 10 games, and his averages in those 10 games where 28.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg and 9.3 apg on 53% shooting.

And again, numbers hardly due Bird's level of play justice. He played more like a forward, while Lebron plays like a scoring point guard, which obviously allows him more opportunities to get numbers. And while Bird played in a faster paced era, Lebron gets an insane amount of easy baskets in transition, and benefits far more from transition opportunities than Bird did. Can't really hold this against Lebron, though, because he kept it up in the playoffs, and if your game translates to the playoffs, what do I care? And I'll give him credit for working without the ball better than in the past. He cut for a lot more easy lay ups this year.

[andgar923]

Who is the better player?
Bird is still a better player.

[Cali Syndicate]

Lebron, he just accomplished more this year and he does & did more in the game on both ends...

Pfffffftttt

[Micku]

It's pretty close to me.

LeBron is the better defender, but Bird was smoother offensively and had a jumpshot obviously. Bird wasn't that bad defensively that ppl make him out to be, and Bird is a better rebounder and better passer (close) IMO. Bird might've been able to guard KG better than LeBron because Bird is used to guard PFs, and is pretty good at it.

But it's close. I think Bird is harder to defend. He runs through screens and could catch and shoot, and better in the post. He could attack you in the paint or the outside shot. And you can't foul him because he is automatic at the FT line. Bird also played better within the offense.

But it's close to me. You can't really go wrong with either, but they play different style. One is more skilled and play more off the ball, the other is more ball dominant and slasher to create, and better defender.

But if I had to choose. Larry Bird. He is a better complement for teams and more skills in the half court set to hurt you than LBJ.

[NumberSix]

Didn't you get the memo? LeBron is a top 4 BOAT. Bird is not.

[Math2]

There is no ****ing comparison.

Waste of thread

[blacknapalm]

bird. an even better passer than lebron. a better shooter for sure, better post game which made him more versatile offensively and he always had a knack for making big play

[Harison]

Lebron with the most Top stacked team in NBA just barely won over injured grandpas Celtics (and would have lost with fair refs 1-4) and then beat very young pre-prime OKC.

How does that compare with beating Hakeem and Jordan (43.7/6.3/5.7) in the same Playoffs? Comparing raw numbers doesnt do the justice either, Bird facilitated teammates better, and could easily score more if needed against actual defense, what to speak what Bird could do with current rules?

Its no contest really, Lebron was great, but he doesnt hold the candle to prime Bird, or Hakeem, or Jordan, or Magic, etc, etc. Its easy to be dominant with rules and refs heavily favoring you, without any Top10 players to compete against.

[Rolando]

I think LeBron could achieve more than Larry did: More MVPs, more 'chips. But, I don't think he is as skilled. Also, aside from what has already been mentioned, Bird wins in the BBIQ department and also the Clutch department.

[Bigsmoke]

i'm going to be an ass and say LeBron.

[G.O.A.T]

Still gotta give the edge to Bird. I feel like this LeBron is more comparable to 1984 Bird. The first title (during Bird's peak run) where Bird's rebounding and scoring carried Boston. His playmaking skills were off the charts in '86, but as some have mentioned, that was the greatest passing team ever. Lebron showed some major playmaking skills in the last two games of the finals, but a big part of his high assist numbers were how well guys like Battier, Miller, Chalmers and Cole shot the three ball. It was a different time, but just for perspective. Miller made 7 three's last night. Combined Bird's teammates made five in each the '84 and '86 finals.

[Pushxx]

Larry Bird was able to post up and make plays while having half the floor spacing LeBron has had throughout his career.

LeBron has played with with dedicated 3-PT shooters around him.

Bird was a once-in-a-lifetime player. Period. Ask all legends who they'd rather have. Other than Oscar of course...

[KevinNYC]

Doesn't get much more consistent than that. Bird's season numbers were 26/10/7, 2 spg, 1 bpg, 50/42/90 shooting, but those are deceptive because he injured his back in the offseason paving his mother's driveway, which of course bothered him the rest of the year, but his stats were lowered early because of it. For example, Bird was averaging an uncharacteristic 24/9/6 on 45% through Christmas and 27/10/7 on 52/45/88 shooting the rest of the season.

And he had that amazing triple double streak midseason. He had 31/15/11 vs Seattle, followed by 47/14/11 vs Portland the next game. 2 games later he had 36/12/11, and the game after the next, he has 30/11/12 followed by 24/18/13, narrowly misses a third straight triple double with 22/9/9, but then adds another with 20/13/12. And these games primarily came with McHale out. Talk about stepping up when your best teammate goes out, he had 6 triple doubles in 10 games, and his averages in those 10 games where 28.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg and 9.3 apg on 53% shooting.

If I remember correctly, he really turned it on around January. And it was at that point the 86 Celtics started getting talk of the best ever, they they were rolling by the time they hit the playoffs.

Bird in 1986 just seemed like a guy in complete control of everything he could control on a basketball court. It felt like he could affect the game no matter where he was on the court. Now that playoff basketball is coming easier to Lebron and he's stepped up his game, we might expect an 1986 Larry Bird type performance from him in the future. Not yet though.

If he keeps working on his post game and his focus off the court and on....Lebron's going to be a bad man for a while.

[t-rex]

Okay, I have flipped again. I would take Bird.:facepalm

[Meticode]

Overreaction thread. Didn't even read past the title.

[Lebron23]

LBJ

[Miller for 3]

LBJ

Nice logic and reasoning. You've swayed my decision!

This is Bird by far. Could do more, in a tougher era, with equal teammates (look at what Bird did that year without McHale :bowdown: ) without the benefit of playing 8 on 5 or having the league fix things so the Heat make the Finals

[RaininTwos]

...and the overrating of past legends continue.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Give me Lebron because of his defense. Offensively, Bird has the advantage because of shooting, but I feel Lebron gets higher percentage shots in that he has better shot selection (due to his ability to drive the basketball).

Really though, did Lebron have one bad game this postseason? I don't think he's had one in months. Crazy.

[Indian guy]

I don't know about '12, but peak LeBron('09 and '10) was better than Bird ever was.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't know about '12, but peak LeBron('09 and '10) was better than Bird ever was.

This was the best version of LeBron. '09 was superhuman but couldn't handle the losing when his teams were over-matched. He just got frustrated instead of finding new ways to win. This years LeBron was so aggressive, so decisive. His play to start and finish the season was fantastic. He seems to get it now. Even if he had 5% more physical talent then, I'll take the mentally superior LeBron on now every time.

[Champ]

Lebron had a great run, and he deserves credit for his improved leadership skills that have made him a better, more complete player this year.

But during the second half of 1986, Bird was playing at an insanely high level -- perhaps higher than anyone before or since.

I really believe Bird ranks second only to Jordan all-time purely in terms of skill, even though his injuries, and career numbers that were stunted as a result, have knocked him down on the GOAT list. I'm convinced that if Bird played his final four or five season in good health, and the Celtics were a bit more healthy during the playoff runs of '85 and '87 and had Len Bias on the roster, Bird would've had at least one and possibly two more chips, which in my mind would've pushed him to 2 on the GOAT list. But history didn't pan out that way. Call it bad luck, but it is what it is.

As for the Lebron comparison, if you watch this clip from the '86 finals -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q -- I think the most striking takeaway is just how many things Bird did well. As great as Lebron is, I still don't see his game having the kind of complete skill set and multidimensionality Bird's had, and this video IMO backs it up.

Watching the above video, you'll see a player who could be silky smooth one minute and then throw his body around like a rag doll the next, outscrapping bigger, stronger, and faster players for rebounds and loose balls, offering up pinpoint passes without having to be ball dominant (a key point brought up by a previous poster), and doing it all with the same calculated, steely look on his face. Check out Bird's footwork in the post at the video's 20 second mark and again at 3:17, or how he works the pick and roll with McHale, Walton and Parish, or how he manages to win the jump ball from Hakeem (3:00). These are just a few of the many subtle aspects of Bird's game that don't show up in volume statistics.

Elsewhere in this playoff run, in addition to the famous dual with Jordan in the opening round, Bird absolutely assassinated the Bucks in the Eastern Conference Finals with his all-around game, including great defense. If clips from those Bucks games ever show up, they're a must-see for any basketball fan. Game 4, in particular, was memorable, as Bird drilled the last of his three, 3 pointers down the stretch at the buzzer before walking off the court, just because.

And as someone pointed out, his run from February to April of that year was one for the ages. If you check out his famous "left-handed game," you'll see just how easy the game was to Bird during this period. I wasn't around to watch Chamberlain or Bobby Orr, but in my lifetime, I've never seen a pro athlete look so relaxed, fluid, and dominant at the same time. Not to mention, clutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76nMD8buR8

In short, with time, I believe LeBron has the chance to match the level of '86 Bird. All the physical skills are there, he just needs to continue to refine his playing technique while increasing his tenacity and killer instinct.

[Pointguard]

To many give and takes with that measure. Bird is still ahead of Lebron for me at this time. Too many things are way too different for me to feel comfortable with this comparison of specific years.

I don't buy into this defensive rating crap. There is no way that a hot Durant doesn't score 36 or 40 ppg if Bird had to guard him. The refs would have to let Bird bang him to no end for there to be any type of resistance of Bird's part. Worthy always seem to be on par with Bird scoring wise and was more efficient in their finals battles - though McHale usually drew the assignment Bird would sometimes have to guard him to no avail. While Worthy was considered the fastest/quickest SF at that time, I wouldn't say he was as fast as Durant is. Durant right now is on par with Bird shooting wise. But not to get too deep into this Bird as a SF defender, he wasn't a good defender. He could help out when he was on a do nothing offensive player. Lebron is the best perimeter defender in his time. This is the only huge gap between them.

Passing wise I give Bird a slight advantage. It's really close. Both were precise passers and could do so in traffic. Bird was more creative and could make something out of seemingly nothing. Lebron is a better set up man and passed more frequently. Lebron was better on the lob. Put Lebron on a team with great scoring big men like Bird had I'm think Lebron wins out in the passing category as well but it puts too much into the equation. Bird slight advantage.

Rebounding I give Bird the edge but it too is slight. Bird just did more of it. If Lebron has a couple of more 7 assist per game years I will put him ahead of Bird assist wise on the same principle of Bird getting more rebounds.

Scoring is where a lot of debate should be at. Bird was the better post player and shooter. But in the end Lebron could score just as well. The East plays more a grind now than it did in Bird's time. Lebron scores in the half court as much as Bird did and moreso. So Lebron's driving ability/penetration is better. If Lebron starts missing he drives more. When Bird started missing, play B wasn't anything at all like Lebron's plan B level. My recollection was that Bird stayed hot in '84 or '86, I forgot which but Lebron didn't hit that hot level this year. Lebron just wasn't taking threes this year. He went totally fundamental and basic in this playoff run. And he was definitely close to Bird when Bird stayed hot.

So I will give Bird the year comparison. I do think Lebron hot is definitely better than Bird hot and now that Lebron can relax we should see many more hot games. His post game has the potential to be much better than Bird's.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Larry Bird was able to post up and make plays while having half the floor spacing LeBron has had throughout his career.

LeBron has played with with dedicated 3-PT shooters around him.

Bird was a once-in-a-lifetime player. Period. Ask all legends who they'd rather have. Other than Oscar of course...

Right.. and Lebron comes around every few years...


You guys are idiots saying theres no comparison.

[Asukal]

...and the overrating of past legends continue.

Overrating? :facepalm

So if Bird is more versatile than Lebron that makes him overrated? Just because you didn't watch Bird play, that doesn't mean he is overrated son. Nobody is saying LBJ is not great but he is not yet as good as Larry Bird offensively. :no:

[Pushxx]

Right.. and Lebron comes around every few years...


You guys are idiots saying theres no comparison.

I never said there's no comparison, but right now Bird is higher.

[Foster5k]

Bird right now. If Lebron wins couple more MVPs or wins another championship, he is better in my opinion.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Still gotta give the edge to Bird. I feel like this LeBron is more comparable to 1984 Bird. The first title (during Bird's peak run) where Bird's rebounding and scoring carried Boston. His playmaking skills were off the charts in '86, but as some have mentioned, that was the greatest passing team ever. Lebron showed some major playmaking skills in the last two games of the finals, but a big part of his high assist numbers were how well guys like Battier, Miller, Chalmers and Cole shot the three ball. It was a different time, but just for perspective. Miller made 7 three's last night. Combined Bird's teammates made five in each the '84 and '86 finals.

'84 was really the turning point for Bird, and what I consider the start of his prime(the last season would be '88, before the ankle injury that kept him out virtually all of '89).

The reason I say this is because I read an article where Bird talked about wanting to work harder than ever following the sweep at the hands of the Milwaukee Bucks, and of course, the Bill Fitch situation.

I can't remember the order, but I know Bird spent one of the following offseasons prior to the '83-'84 and '84-'85 seasons working extremely hard on shooting and the other on 1 on 1 moves.

This showed in his playing as '84 was the start of a 3 year run where he'd clearly be the best player in the league for 3 consecutive seasons, and winning the title 2 of those 3 years. '85 was interrupted somewhat by injuries to Bird himself, as well as the Lakers avenging their disappointing '84 loss led by a rejuvenated Kareem.

Bird's level of play remained in '87 and '88, and he still had a good case for best player, but Magic peaked in '87 and really started his true prime when he took over the team from Kareem, and had the most complete season over Bird, and then in '88, Michael Jordan got to the level where he was in the discussion for best player with those 2.

What can't be forgotten about '84 is that Larry led the Celtics to a victory over a Laker team widely considered to be more talented than them with Kareem, Magic, Worthy(who had improved to the point where many were talking about him as the potential finals MVP if the Lakers won), one of the most productive bench scorers in McAdoo, the ultimate role player and defensive stopper Michael Cooper, and another quality guard in Byron Scott.

Bird had the numbers during that run as well, with averages of 28/12/6, 2.3 spg, 1.2 spg on 52 FG%/88 FT%.

Boston obviously had an excellent team, but from what was said during the games and coverage of the series I've watched, as well as articles written at the time and interviews from the players both during and after the fact, the Lakers were considered the more talented team, and if you look at their rosters, that appears accurate.

I'd actually say that Philadelphia had more talent than Boston as well with the same core from their '83 team with the 4 all-stars(Moses, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks), the '83 Sixth man of the year and '81 and '82 all-star Bobby Jones, which consisted of a trio of 20+ ppg scorers, while the other 2 were all-defensive 1st teamers in Cheeks and Jones.

Of course, that team greatly underachieved and lost in the 1st round to New Jersey so they weren't a problem for Boston.


If I remember correctly, he really turned it on around January. And it was at that point the 86 Celtics started getting talk of the best ever, they they were rolling by the time they hit the playoffs.

No, you're right, he did seem fine by January or so. That's why I used Christmas as the turning point. What I meant to say is that same back injury bothered him throughout the rest of his career, or more accurately, on and off throughout the rest of his career. I think it caused a few problems in '87, but seemed fine through '88 when Bird had his 2 best statistical years, even though I think '86 was when he was at his absolute peak.


Bird in 1986 just seemed like a guy in complete control of everything he could control on a basketball court. It felt like he could affect the game no matter where he was on the court. Now that playoff basketball is coming easier to Lebron and he's stepped up his game, we might expect an 1986 Larry Bird type performance from him in the future. Not yet though.

Well said, when I was looking into Bird's '86 season a year or 2 ago, I found a quote by KC Jones where he described Bird's play almost the exact same way you did, and talked about him being better than ever.

[KevinNYC]

The reason I say this is because I read an article where Bird talked about wanting to work harder than ever following the sweep at the hands of the Milwaukee Bucks, and of course, the Bill Fitch situation.

I believe Bird cut back on his drinking too. The Celtics also traded Rick Robey who because he was Bird's drinking buddy and could always get him to stay out late.



No, you're right, he did seem fine by January or so. That's why I used Christmas as the turning point. What I meant to say is that same back injury bothered him throughout the rest of his career, or more accurately, on and off throughout the rest of his career. I think it caused a few problems in '87, but seemed fine through '88 when Bird had his 2 best statistical years, even though I think '86 was when he was at his absolute peak.

Yeah, I wasn't correcting you I was agreeing with you that he started a bit slow and then really turned it on halfway through the season. As Red Auerbach always said, statistics never told the full story of Bird's impact.



Well said, when I was looking into Bird's '86 season a year or 2 ago, I found a quote by KC Jones where he described Bird's play almost the exact same way you did, and talked about him being better than ever.

Just curious when did you start watching basketball?

[Hank]

There was no defense played in the mid 80's. It's an absolute joke how teams just scored at will back then because of no attention to defense whatsoever.

Stick a 1980's Larry Bird in this era today and he wouldn't be nearly as good as he was back then. But stick a current Lebron James in that 1980's era and his averages and high level of play would be off the charts. Right now Jordan would be considered 2nd to LeBron all-time if Lebron played in the early to mid 1980's era Bird played.

the 70's and 80's were a pathetic era for basketball. No defense was played and it was boring as hell to watch. It was a game of horse. Tennis had less back and forthness than 80's basketball. The lack of resistance players played against in the late 70's and early to mid 80's was a total joke

LeBron > Bird

.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

There was no defense played in the 80's. It's an absolute joke how teams just scored at will back then because of no attention to defense whatsoever.

Stick a 1980's Larry Bird in this era today and he wouldn't be nearly as good as he was back then. But stick a current Lebron James in that 1980's era and his averages and high level of play would be off the charts. Right now Jordan would be considered 2nd to LeBron all-time if Lebron played in the 1980's in that era Bird played.

the 70's and 80's were a pathetic era for basketball. No defense was played and it was boring as hell to watch. It was a game of horse. Tennis had less back and forthness than 80's basketball

LeBron > Bird

.

1/10

Valiant effort though!

[Stern]

Looks like RG has also jumped on Brons d1ck. :lol

[StateOfMind12]

2012 LeBron is the best version of LeBron in my opinion and I've been saying this for the past months while people continued to believe that LeBron in '09 and '10 were better for some reason.

I would take 2012 LeBron over any version of Bird. Honestly, Lebron's 2012 season is top 5 of all-time in terms of peak play or absolute best season.

There are very few players I would taker over 2012 LeBron, and Bird in any version isn't one of them.

I would say only '94-'95 Hakeem, '90-'93 Jordan, and '00-'01 Shaq are the only ones I would take over Lebron..

[Mach_3]

...and the underrating of past legends continue.

:applause:

[midatlantic09]

Is this thread a joke??

The obvious answer is Lebron.

[Quickening]

Is this thread a joke??

The obvious answer is Lebron.

This...

[Harison]

While I find Lebron fans amusing, but there is one interesting point - while Bird vs Lebron comparison is disrespectful to the Larry the Legend, its actually far closer than last years major overreaction "Dirk > Bird" threads.

[PickernRoller]

While I find Lebron fans amusing, but there is one interesting point - while Bird vs Lebron comparison is disrespectful to the Larry the Legend, its actually far closer than last years major overreaction "Dirk > Bird" threads.

^^^^^ ^ ^ ^ ^^^
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[Shep]

very close comparison, but the answer is lebron james

[pierce2008mvp]

Bird for sure. He beat decent teams in the playoffs. Lebron pretty much got outplayed by Durant. Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28 ppg on 48%

[Odinn]

Bird for sure. He beat decent teams in the playoffs. Lebron pretty much got outplayed by Durant. Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28 ppg on 48%
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab88/broadmoor74/what-if-im-not-sure-if-serious-or-trolling-thumb.jpg

[Rekindled]

bird shot 52%/41%/93% while averaging nearly a triple double. lmao@ anyone picking lebron

[cltcfn2924]

Lebron had a great run, and he deserves credit for his improved leadership skills that have made him a better, more complete player this year.

But during the second half of 1986, Bird was playing at an insanely high level -- perhaps higher than anyone before or since.

I really believe Bird ranks second only to Jordan all-time purely in terms of skill, even though his injuries, and career numbers that were stunted as a result, have knocked him down on the GOAT list. I'm convinced that if Bird played his final four or five season in good health, and the Celtics were a bit more healthy during the playoff runs of '85 and '87 and had Len Bias on the roster, Bird would've had at least one and possibly two more chips, which in my mind would've pushed him to 2 on the GOAT list. But history didn't pan out that way. Call it bad luck, but it is what it is.

As for the Lebron comparison, if you watch this clip from the '86 finals -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q -- I think the most striking takeaway is just how many things Bird did well. As great as Lebron is, I still don't see his game having the kind of complete skill set and multidimensionality Bird's had, and this video IMO backs it up.

Watching the above video, you'll see a player who could be silky smooth one minute and then throw his body around like a rag doll the next, outscrapping bigger, stronger, and faster players for rebounds and loose balls, offering up pinpoint passes without having to be ball dominant (a key point brought up by a previous poster), and doing it all with the same calculated, steely look on his face. Check out Bird's footwork in the post at the video's 20 second mark and again at 3:17, or how he works the pick and roll with McHale, Walton and Parish, or how he manages to win the jump ball from Hakeem (3:00). These are just a few of the many subtle aspects of Bird's game that don't show up in volume statistics.

Elsewhere in this playoff run, in addition to the famous dual with Jordan in the opening round, Bird absolutely assassinated the Bucks in the Eastern Conference Finals with his all-around game, including great defense. If clips from those Bucks games ever show up, they're a must-see for any basketball fan. Game 4, in particular, was memorable, as Bird drilled the last of his three, 3 pointers down the stretch at the buzzer before walking off the court, just because.

And as someone pointed out, his run from February to April of that year was one for the ages. If you check out his famous "left-handed game," you'll see just how easy the game was to Bird during this period. I wasn't around to watch Chamberlain or Bobby Orr, but in my lifetime, I've never seen a pro athlete look so relaxed, fluid, and dominant at the same time. Not to mention, clutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76nMD8buR8

In short, with time, I believe LeBron has the chance to match the level of '86 Bird. All the physical skills are there, he just needs to continue to refine his playing technique while increasing his tenacity and killer instinct.


I saw 3-5 no call plays in that clip that would be flagrant 1's now. You cannot compare different eras period!!

[Coffee Black]

Really?

First off, the 86 Celtics are one of the best teams ever, and faced tougher competition (albeit maybe not that much tougher) along their way to the title.

Second, Bird is and will always be a more talented player than LeBron, because his game is way more multifaceted. Best example, I can give is that Bird could routinely make plays without having the ball in his hands and not just by making cuts to the basket. Hell he makes countless plays without even dribbling. Just a better player to play along side with.

[che guevara]

This was the best version of LeBron. '09 was superhuman but couldn't handle the losing when his teams were over-matched. He just got frustrated instead of finding new ways to win. This years LeBron was so aggressive, so decisive. His play to start and finish the season was fantastic. He seems to get it now. Even if he had 5% more physical talent then, I'll take the mentally superior LeBron on now every time.
No, this was not Lebron's best season. Lebron knew how to win just fine in '09, and he played at a level far higher than he did in the 2012 playoffs - he had an enormous statistical advantage in '09, one that isn't going to be made up by minor improvements in intangibles. I never bought the bullshit that players need to "learn how to win" anyway, they always know how to win, it's just that for some it's a matter of actually playing the game the right way (something Lebron really hasn't ever had a problem with in his career).

In '09 he was quite a bit more aggressive going to the rim, shot the ball far better from the perimeter, was better in the clutch (even making a game winning three), scored quite a bit more on better efficiency (+5 ppg and +4 TS% over 2012, not to mention his superior assist numbers), showed good leadership and had absolutely no sign of any mental breakdown that postseason. As much as haters love to talk about Lebron's mental breakdowns, he's never had anything of the sort in his career aside from 2010 game 5 vs. Boston and the 2011 Finals. He lost in the playoffs because the Cavs simply could not stop Orlando; the Cavs offense was the best it had been the whole season in that Magic series.

His defense was already elite by then too, he was 95% as good defensively by '09 as he is now. I would also say he's lost more like 15-20% of his physical skills, whenever I watch Cleveland highlights his superior quickness, explosiveness and fluidity really just pops out. It's the first thing I notice.

[Tenchi Ryu]

The guy who put a 63 pt scoring monster and future GOAT to sleep.

[Champ]

There was no defense played in the mid 80's. It's an absolute joke how teams just scored at will back then because of no attention to defense whatsoever.

Stick a 1980's Larry Bird in this era today and he wouldn't be nearly as good as he was back then. But stick a current Lebron James in that 1980's era and his averages and high level of play would be off the charts. Right now Jordan would be considered 2nd to LeBron all-time if Lebron played in the early to mid 1980's era Bird played.

the 70's and 80's were a pathetic era for basketball. No defense was played and it was boring as hell to watch. It was a game of horse. Tennis had less back and forthness than 80's basketball. The lack of resistance players played against in the late 70's and early to mid 80's was a total joke

LeBron > Bird

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woAK1i-o2wI

Here's a clip from Bird against '90s-era defense, similar to what you see in today's game. The Portland Trailblazers won 60 games that year before bowing out to Jordan's Bulls in the finals, and were ranked third that year in defense.

Bird wasn't even supposed to play in this game due to injury, and still registered a 49-14-12 with is old, injury-laden, slow and thoroughly un-athletic self.

But maybe you're right, he wouldn't be nearly as good if he played today :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

His defense was already elite by then too, he was 95% as good defensively by '09 as he is now.
I disagree with this statement on a massive level. He was a good defender by 09, but wasn't deserving of an all defensive selection at all. Right now, he's probably the second best perimeter defender in the NBA. He just puts in a much higher effort now then he ever did with cleveland, and he also just seems to understand defense more.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, this was not Lebron's best season. Lebron knew how to win just fine in '09, and he played at a level far higher than he did in the 2012 playoffs - he had an enormous statistical advantage in '09, one that isn't going to be made up by minor improvements in intangibles. I never bought the bullshit that players need to "learn how to win" anyway, they always know how to win, it's just that for some it's a matter of actually playing the game the right way (something Lebron really hasn't ever had a problem with in his career).

In '09 he was quite a bit more aggressive going to the rim, shot the ball far better from the perimeter, was better in the clutch (even making a game winning three), scored quite a bit more on better efficiency (+5 ppg and +4 TS% over 2012, not to mention his superior assist numbers), showed good leadership and had absolutely no sign of any mental breakdown that postseason. As much as haters love to talk about Lebron's mental breakdowns, he's never had anything of the sort in his career aside from 2010 game 5 vs. Boston and the 2011 Finals. He lost in the playoffs because the Cavs simply could not stop Orlando; the Cavs offense was the best it had been the whole season in that Magic series.

His defense was already elite by then too, he was 95% as good defensively by '09 as he is now. I would also say he's lost more like 15-20% of his physical skills, whenever I watch Cleveland highlights his superior quickness, explosiveness and fluidity really just pops out. It's the first thing I notice.

I agree that Lebron was more explosive in '09. And I also agree that Lebron played more than well enough to win in '09. He played almost flawless basketball in the first 2 rounds as Cleveland effortlessly swept the Pistons and Hawks. Then he was forced into being a dominant one man team. Though I'd say that his stats are somewhat deceptive because Orlando's strategy was to allow perimeter players to go off against them and stop everyone else, we saw this throughout the year, and also because of Lebron's ball-dominance.

But if Lebron's cast had played as well as they had in the regular season, he could've possibly won a title in '09 without Lebron having to dominate nearly as much as he did.

So many things went wrong in the Orlando series. Dwight Howard repeatedly killed them, same with Rashard Lewis, who gave Cleveland's 4s all sorts of problems. They couldn't get out and contest his 3s, and couldn't deal with him when he faked and put the ball on the floor. Mike Brown was completely outcoached and it was just embarrassing watching him fail to make any adjustment.

Lebron's second option Mo Williams also had an excellent shooting season, but shot just 37% in the Orlando series.

Despite that, they win games 1 and 4 if not for late Rashard Lewis 3s to win and tie the games. And they would've faced a Laker team that didn't present the same match up problems, and they would've had HCA. So Lebron had a realistic chance of leading that Cleveland team to a title.

I have to really nitpick to criticize Lebron. All I can point out is his poor elimination game, or his turnovers late in the game 4 OT loss. But considering how much else he did, I can't blame him for that loss.

This wasn't a case of Lebron disappearing like the '11 finals or last 3 games in the '10 Boston series, or his jumper being exposed like it was in '07 and '08. I'm more than willing to blame Lebron when he deserves it, but I just don't think he does for '09.

I do see some improvements this year, though. While his long range shooting in '09 was better, he's added a short range and in between game that he didn't have in Cleveland. His shot selection has also improved since he's been in Miami, cutting down on 3s each of the past 2 years. And he couldn't post up at all prior to this year, but now he's become a respectable post player, who posts up pretty often and hits that turnaround jumper with consistency as well as an occasional jump hook when he gets good position.

He's also become a better rebounder than ever, and was showing some offensive rebounding ability throughout the playoffs, and really impressed me on the boards, while in the past, his rebounding didn't stand out as much to me.

Finally, he did a significantly better job playing without the ball than ever before, and score quite frequently by cutting to the basket for lay ups. In general, he capitalized on easy baskets far more than ever before, even though he can still be ball-dominant.

He's also benefited from so many more transition opportunities, this is because Miami's specialty has become forcing turnovers, and Lebron also leaks out and cherry picks more frequently. I was shocked at how many much he continued to score in transition due to

His mid-range shot was good, though by '09. He was shooting 16-19 footers at a solid percentage, and obviously long 2s, while being a decent, streaky 3 point shooter. He reconstructed his shot in the offseason prior to the '08-'09 season, and it paid off since his weakness before then was his shooting. He was a bad shooter in '08 and a terrible shooter in '07, which is why good defenses were able to exploit this by backing off him and clogging the paint which resulted in back to back years with 35-36 FG% and 5-6 TO elimination series vs the Spurs and Celtics.

As far as defense, he was definitely a good defender in '09, above average by '08 and average by '07. He was a poor defender during his first 3 years, but for some reason, that reputation stayed with him longer. I'd rank his defensive seasons like this.

1.2012
2.2011
3.2009
4.2010
5.2008

[All Net]

Bird for sure. He beat decent teams in the playoffs. Lebron pretty much got outplayed by Durant. Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28 ppg on 48%

Perfect example of boxscore watching.

[D-Wade316]

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[pauk]

bird shot 52%/41%/93% while averaging nearly a triple double. lmao@ anyone picking lebron

Lebron averaged 4.4 more points @ 50% FG, 0.9 more rebounds, 2.6 less assists, more steals & blocks.......... both were good in the 4th quarter/clutch... all in all therefore giving Lebron a 30.3 PER rating this playoff run which is the 3rd best in NBA playoff history by a FMVP compared to Birds 23.9 rating in that one.... and most importantly we here (as Lebron haters) are desperately trying to ignore one thing which Lebron made Bird look pathetic with and which is the biggest thing which sepparates him from Bird.... 1st all-defensive/DPOY (and the most versatile defense since Pippen) type of DEFENSE ...

Bird was not a "pathetic" defender, he survived playing within team defense, but compared to Lebron individualy & his defensive impact on a team there is a ridicilously big gap... and defense is just as important as offense, if not more important... there is no 3pt/ft percentage that can save Bird from this....

...and one more thing, the Bird "was a smart defender playing amazing team defense" excuse is a desperate attempt...
there is no defensive impact by a player letting his man taking so many comfortable shots or blowing by him so much inside over and over just because he wants him to meet his big men because its "team defense" which only allows that player to now hit the open guy for the bucket or get fouled for the and 1 if he doesnt miss or get denied, when the player could have himself denied his man instead not allowing his team defense to scramble........
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being allowed to chase down and annihilate a fastbreak/breakaway...
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to defend the best player no matter what position he plays....
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to help out on any player no matter the position...
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to vocally orchestrate the team defense....
and so on...

I love Bird for what he was.... but defense was NOT his thing... the only positive thing i can say about Bird defensively is that because he was so smart he for example was able to do one thing Lebron can do defensively... and that is to read what the offense was doing and put himself in a position to get the occasional steal/deflection, like passing lanes...

[TheBigVeto]

The argument of Lebron being better than Larry Bird was permanently killed when he announced his decision to join the Heat.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

both were good in the 4th quarter/clutch...
.
33%
25%
33%
40%

:confusedshrug:

[Indian guy]

No, this was not Lebron's best season. Lebron knew how to win just fine in '09, and he played at a level far higher than he did in the 2012 playoffs - he had an enormous statistical advantage in '09, one that isn't going to be made up by minor improvements in intangibles. I never bought the bullshit that players need to "learn how to win" anyway, they always know how to win, it's just that for some it's a matter of actually playing the game the right way (something Lebron really hasn't ever had a problem with in his career).

In '09 he was quite a bit more aggressive going to the rim, shot the ball far better from the perimeter, was better in the clutch (even making a game winning three), scored quite a bit more on better efficiency (+5 ppg and +4 TS% over 2012, not to mention his superior assist numbers), showed good leadership and had absolutely no sign of any mental breakdown that postseason. As much as haters love to talk about Lebron's mental breakdowns, he's never had anything of the sort in his career aside from 2010 game 5 vs. Boston and the 2011 Finals. He lost in the playoffs because the Cavs simply could not stop Orlando; the Cavs offense was the best it had been the whole season in that Magic series.

His defense was already elite by then too, he was 95% as good defensively by '09 as he is now. I would also say he's lost more like 15-20% of his physical skills, whenever I watch Cleveland highlights his superior quickness, explosiveness and fluidity really just pops out. It's the first thing I notice.

All of this applies to the 09-10 season too, which was his BEST season as far as level of play is concerned. Too much is made of that Game 5 against Boston IMO, but really, outside of that outlier, his postseason averages were 30.5/9.5/7.8/52% FG/43% 3PT. Just insane numbers and superior to his '12 run in every way, give how much more defensive pressure he faced in Cleveland. This is how I rank his career now:

1) 09-10
2) 08-09



3) 11-12
4) 07-08
5) 05-06
6) 10-11
7) 06-07


8) 04-05
9) 03-04

[greymatter]

Talent wise at their peaks, they aren't that far apart and you could make a case for either one edging the other. Would still take Bird any day of the week over Lebron because Bird's ability to elevate his team is arguably 2a/2b all time behind Russell's (the clear #1) and Magic's. Bird didn't have to dominate the ball nearly as much as Lebron did in order to be effective.

[Pointguard]

In the 2012 run Lebron was not hot. He played conservative and didn't really go hard into his skill set. At times still got stuck in deferring and kickstarting the two stars, paid hard attention to the different role players that were getting hot and kept them hot as good as we've seen a player do recently, had extra rebounding duties, Durant was hot basically the whole series, and Lebron was key to stopping OKC from running. 2012 was Lebron's first post season playing a big man's game of rebounding and rarely scoring it outside. Lebron was in a different and new role then even the previous year.

I keep bringing up hot because it's the story of a lot of shooters - not Durant tho, he seems to rarely be off. I only recall Bird staying hot deep into the playoffs twice. Dirk has two or three times and Ray Ray had a couple of times. When they were hot it greatly affected the teams ability to win it all. When they weren't hot their teams usually played below their level and their scoring suffered. While Bird's offensive game certainly looks more versatile than Lebron's, Lebron doesn't has to be hot to be an effective scorer and the team can still floursih because his offensive versatility remains far reaching with teammates.

If Lebron is hot and scoring 27 points in a row to end a playoff game (like he has done before) and hitting threes with a decent team, there is nothing Brid or any other player, save MJ, can do to attain that level of play. Particurally, now that Lebron has a bit of a post game. Lebron will be as prolific scoring wise as anybody else in the playoffs, but Lebron is also somebody that could win big even if he scored 20. He's very different than any other big time scorer in that regards.

While I say Bird had a better year we are comparing a hot Bird with a cold Lebron and its still very, very close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lebron averaged 4.4 more points @ 50% FG, 0.9 more rebounds, 2.6 less assists, more steals & blocks.......... both were good in the 4th quarter/clutch... all in all therefore giving Lebron a 30.3 PER rating this playoff run which is the 3rd best in NBA playoff history by a FMVP compared to Birds 23.9 rating in that one.... and most importantly we here (as Lebron haters) are desperately trying to ignore one thing which Lebron made Bird look pathetic with and which is the biggest thing which sepparates him from Bird.... 1st all-defensive/DPOY (and the most versatile defense since Pippen) type of DEFENSE ...

First... :oldlol: at PER. And I don't really care about Lebron averaging more rebounds, he was not competing with Parish, McHale and Walton for rebounds. Bird was the better rebounder, though I'll give Lebron credit for his rebound.


Bird was not a "pathetic" defender, he survived playing within team defense, but compared to Lebron individualy & his defensive impact on a team there is a ridicilously big gap... and defense is just as important as offense, if not more important... there is no 3pt/ft percentage that can save Bird from this....

...and one more thing, the Bird "was a smart defender playing amazing team defense" excuse is a desperate attempt...
there is no defensive impact by a player letting his man taking so many comfortable shots or blowing by him so much inside over and over just because he wants him to meet his big men because its "team defense" which only allows that player to now hit the open guy for the bucket or get fouled for the and 1 if he doesnt miss or get denied, when the player could have himself denied his man instead not allowing his team defense to scramble........
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being allowed to chase down and annihilate a fastbreak/breakaway...
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to defend the best player no matter what position he plays....
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to help out on any player no matter the position...
nor is there any positive defensive impact with not being able to vocally orchestrate the team defense....
and so on...

I love Bird for what he was.... but defense was NOT his thing... the only positive thing i can say about Bird defensively is that because he was so smart he for example was able to do one thing Lebron can do defensively... and that is to read what the offense was doing and put himself in a position to get the occasional steal/deflection, like passing lanes...

Bird's man to man defense was ok, he wasn't among the worst man to man defenders at his position, and better than Magic for example.

But it's ridiculous to not give him his credit for his help/team defense. He was very good at it, and that matters. Nobody is denying that Lebron is the better defender.


The argument of Lebron being better than Larry Bird was permanently killed when he announced his decision to join the Heat.

I don't understand this point of view at all. I don't think that Lebron is as good as Larry, and I don't think that I ever will, but changing jerseys doesn't make you a worse player.


All of this applies to the 09-10 season too, which was his BEST season as far as level of play is concerned. Too much is made of that Game 5 against Boston IMO, but really, outside of that outlier, his postseason averages were 30.5/9.5/7.8/52% FG/43% 3PT. Just insane numbers and superior to his '12 run in every way, give how much more defensive pressure he faced in Cleveland.

It's not just game 5, that was the worst one, but he didn't come through in the final 3 games, and they lost all of them to lose the series with a 2-1 lead, completely unacceptable for a player of his ability. And he had subpar games in 4 of the 6 games in the Celtics series because he didn't play well in game 2 either.

That's why I'll always take '09 over '10. It's the tiebreaker for me because his ability was equal in both seasons, imo. His strengths and weaknesses are the same in both seasons. But I don't agree with ranking seasons purely based on the regular season.


This is how I rank his career now:

1) 09-10
2) 08-09



3) 11-12
4) 07-08
5) 05-06
6) 10-11
7) 06-07


8) 04-05
9) 03-04

Eh, at least you moved '12 past '06 and '08.

Would put '11 4th, though. That was his best shooting year and since his shooting was a liability in '08, and he was also a better defender in '12, I'll take those things over more athleticism. Not being able to shoot well like Lebron in '08 is a pretty big problem for a perimeter player, imo. It makes me tempted to take '06 Lebron over '08, but I'm not sure because '08 Lebron was a much better defender, bigger and stronger, an even better playmaker and a better rebounder.

Not sure which I'd choose between '05 and '07 Lebron, but I definitely wouldn't put '07 in another tier because his shooting wasn't nearly as bad in '05 as '07, even though I'd say his playmaking improved a bit, and his defense went from poor to average.

[BallsOut]

People overrate Lebron's defense. Bird and James help defense are on par with each other. Their man to man defense is average.

[Kingwillball]

Bird is still a better player.


thing is if they played head to head Lebron would outplay Bird Gauranteed...So for all u saying Bird is/was better think about if Teams Played who would have better series. NO WAY Bird outscores/outplays Lebron and I was a bird fan.. Lebron's size speed strength plus skill would be too much even for Birds craftiness to overcome.

[Indian guy]

That's why I'll always take '09 over '10.

I know we'll never agree on this, but I just don't think 2-3 games should ever be the decider between 2 seasons. '10 LeBron not only had the superior regular season, but had the superior playoff run through the first 8 games too. Easily the best he had EVER played. Obviously, the 3 sub-par games that followed are a knock against him, but I frankly give Boston the credit for that rather than any shortcomings in LeBron. '09 LeBron would have fared no better.


Would put '11 4th, though. That was his best shooting year and since his shooting was a liability in '08, and he was also a better defender in '12, I'll take those things over more athleticism.

I find '11 LeBron way too limited a playmaker(different from passing) to rank him over his '08 and '06 self. He was so prone to disappearing for LONG stretches in games because of how difficult the game became for him when his jump shot stopped falling. This was never really an issue for Cleveland-LeBron, who was a relentless playmaker and was constantly looking to make things happen, which is an ability Heat-LeBron simply doesn't possess.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I know we'll never agree on this, but I just don't think 2-3 games should ever be the decider between 2 seasons. '10 LeBron not only had the superior regular season, but had the superior playoff run through the first 8 games too. Easily the best he had EVER played. Obviously, the 3 sub-par games that followed are a knock against him, but I frankly give Boston the credit for that rather than any shortcomings in LeBron. '09 LeBron would have fared no better.


It's not that I don't understand someone preferring '10, because as I said, I think his level of play for the regular season was equal, and just that his ranking increases for me based on his '09 postseason and drops based on his '10 postseason. If you think his '10 regular season was better, that's cool, but I just don't see any difference in Lebron as a player during either of those years.

But the one thing I have a problem with is you saying that '09 Lebron wouldn't have fared any better vs Boston in '10. I don't expect '09, '10, '11 or '12 Lebron to average 21.3 ppg and 8.3 apg on 34 FG% and 2/13 3 point shooting with 6.3 turnovers per game over the final 3 games in a situation like that.

His '10 series vs Chicago was great, but so were his '09 series vs Atlanta and Detroit.

I don't view Lebron's numbers in '10 going up a bit as anything more than it being a different situation. The '09 team was more dominant and Lebron sat out a lot of 4th quarters, and in '10, he had that 11 game stretch without Mo when his numbers were around 31/7/11, iirc.

So that's how I view it. Better numbers vs more historically significant team success. That evens out for me. But I always look at the postseason when I rank season, and take into consideration postseason failures vs great postseason runs. In '09, I said that Lebron did what he could, they lost a close series for several reasons that weren't his fault. While Lebron isn't the only reason they lost in '10, I do think that they have a chance if he plays like himself.


I find '11 LeBron way too limited a playmaker(different from passing) to rank him over his '08 and '06 self. He was so prone to disappearing for LONG stretches in games because of how difficult the game became for him when his jump shot stopped falling. This was never really an issue for Cleveland-LeBron, who was a relentless playmaker and was constantly looking to make things happen, which is an ability Heat-LeBron simply doesn't possess.

I'll take the improved jumper, and defense. You could back off '08 Lebron and you'll like your chances that he won't beat you, but not '11 Lebron. That's why he came through vs Boston and Chicago, a lot of it was coming on jump shots.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I don't view Lebron as a particularly flawed player. Sure, he couldn't post up, and didn't move well without the ball, but those were also problems in '08. Shooting is just such a necessity for perimeter players, imo.

[Rysio]

Bird for sure. He beat decent teams in the playoffs. Lebron pretty much got outplayed by Durant. Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% while Lebron averaged 28 ppg on 48%
:applause: :applause: :applause: exposing these lebrick stat geek stans

[che guevara]

I'll take the improved jumper, and defense. You could back off '08 Lebron and you'll like your chances that he won't beat you, but not '11 Lebron. That's why he came through vs Boston and Chicago, a lot of it was coming on jump shots.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I don't view Lebron as a particularly flawed player. Sure, he couldn't post up, and didn't move well without the ball, but those were also problems in '08. Shooting is just such a necessity for perimeter players, imo.
Same with '12 Lebron though, in the postseason this year his jumper was even worse than it was in '08 - he shot just 36% from 16-23 and an absolutely putrid 26% on threes. In the last 6 games of the playoffs, he shot 8-48 (or 9-49, can't remember) on jumpers, his worst stretch since he went 11-68 in March '07.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Same with '12 Lebron though, in the postseason this year his jumper was even worse than it was in '08 - he shot just 36% from 16-23 and an absolutely putrid 26% on threes. In the last 6 games of the playoffs, he shot 8-48 (or 9-49, can't remember) on jumpers, his worst stretch since he went 11-68 in March '07.

I suspect it was just a cold streak, while in '07 and '08, he was just a poor shooter, period. This even reflected in his FT%, which was a little under 70% in '07, and a bit over 71% in '08.

And he's also added to his mid-range game with a 10-15 foot shot. He made 1.2 of them and shot 48.1% in that range.

And Lebron shot just 28.9% from 16-23 feet in the '08 postseason in addition to 25.7% on 3s.

[Round Mound]

Larry Bird was a "GREAT POST DEFENDER"..."GREAT". He Guarded Big Forwards like the Best of them.

When he had Trouble with Faster, Quicker Footed and Potent SFs...McHale Would Switch Off.

He had trouble Guarding High Scoring SFs like Dantley, King, Dominique..etc BUT.. WHO WOULDNT?

Plus Still THEY HAD MORE TROUBLE GUARDING HIM THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Defensive Win Shares

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)

NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

Year Lg Player DRtg Tm
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

How was Larry a Bad Defender?

Statistically It Shows Otherwise..
:confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

Lots of great responses.

[Jacks3]

I'll take LeBron and the far superior defense...

[Mr. Jabbar]

bird and its not even close

[bizil]

It always seemed kinda predestined that these two were headed on a collison course at the GOAT SF. Both are epic all around players who dominate scoring, passing, and rebounding. For me it comes down to Bird's scoring skillset and pure clutch gene vs. Bron's defensive ability and ball handling skills. For me current value or peak value wise, I would take Bron over Bird narrowly. Bron has a defensive versatility that Bird cannot match. The main reason in my book that MJ passed Bird and Magic by is the defensive end of the court. Bird in my book was just as capable of taking over a game scoring than MJ. Bird was a better rebounder and in terms of vision a better passer. If someone picked LB over Bron I wouldn't complain one bit. What separated MJ was the D. I think Bron is similar in getting the nod on LB. But GOAT wise, Bird is still the man.

[jlauber]

It always seemed kinda predestined that these two were headed on a collison course at the GOAT SF. Both are epic all around players who dominate scoring, passing, and rebounding. For me it comes down to Bird's scoring skillset and pure clutch gene vs. Bron's defensive ability and ball handling skills. For me current value or peak value wise, I would take Bron over Bird narrowly. Bron has a defensive versatility that Bird cannot match. The main reason in my book that MJ passed Bird and Magic by is the defensive end of the court. Bird in my book was just as capable of taking over a game scoring than MJ. Bird was a better rebounder and in terms of vision a better passer. If someone picked LB over Bron I wouldn't complain one bit. What separated MJ was the D. I think Bron is similar in getting the nod on LB. But GOAT wise, Bird is still the man.

If Lebron wins just one more ring and FMVP, IMHO, he surpasses Bird's career.

[miles berg]

Larry Bird.

Can't believe this is even being talked about.

LeBron has some work to do to reach Larry's level. He was completely polished and the type of leader that you can't teach others to become. LeBron is a great talent but c'mon, this isn't even close yet.

[jlauber]

Larry Bird.

Can't believe this is even being talked about.

LeBron has some work to do to reach Larry's level. He was completely polished and the type of leader that you can't teach others to become. LeBron is a great talent but c'mon, this isn't even close yet.

It is VERY CLOSE. And Lebron, barring injury, has 7-8 quality seasons left in the tank. Given all that Lebron has accomplished (and he has three MVPs and statistical titles, and great playoff runs), just ONE more ring and FMVP, and he vaults past Hakeem, Moses, and, yes, Bird.

[Champ]

It is VERY CLOSE. And Lebron, barring injury, has 7-8 quality seasons left in the tank. Given all that Lebron has accomplished (and he has three MVPs and statistical titles, and great playoff runs), just ONE more ring and FMVP, and he vaults past Hakeem, Moses, and, yes, Bird.

If that's your reasoning, then you must prefer LBJ to LB as a player, since even with one more ring and one additional FMVP, he's still short of Bird in the former and only even with the latter.

I think this argument will ultimately come down to a matter of what you give more weight to in determining your GOAT list. Career accolades? Aggregate stats? Rings? Better peak? Better prime? Better player/skills? However one weighs these and other categories will affect their opinion and determine their list.

Given his age, I think there's little doubt Lebron will ultimately pass Bird in terms of stats and awards. Still, at least to me, Bird remains the better player.

[arifgokcen]

If that's your reasoning, then you must prefer LBJ to LB as a player, since even with one more ring and one additional FMVP, he's still short of Bird in the former and only even with the latter.

I think this argument will ultimately come down to a matter of what you give more weight to in determining your GOAT list. Career accolades? Aggregate stats? Rings? Better peak? Better prime? Better player/skills? However one weighs these and other categories will affect their opinion and determine their list.

Given his age, I think there's little doubt Lebron will ultimately pass Bird in terms of stats and awards. Still, at least to me, Bird remains the better player.

Being a better player doesnt affect the GOAT list as much as accolades.Bird was a fantastic player.However you have to be stupid to take LB over LBJ.Because bird as great as he was,he wasnt the athlete lebron is.

His prime was only 4 years and because he was a terrible athlete compared to other greats,he only averaged 6 free throws in his prime.Lebron is playing at this level since his sophomere year.Right now bird is ahead of lebron not because of his prime or his peak but because of his accolades.Because bird prime is the shortest prime in top 10 list.However bird basketball IQ is by far the best we have ever seen.He understood the game better than anyone else.This is why he has been so successful even though he wasnt even an average athlete.

So if lebron wins another ring(FMVP) and MVP.He is gonna be right up there with bird.

[IGOTGAME]

Never thought I'd be the one defending Lebron but how can anyone say that isn't close.

[colts19]

Being a better player doesnt affect the GOAT list as much as accolades.Bird was a fantastic player.However you have to be stupid to take LB over LBJ.Because bird as great as he was,he wasnt the athlete lebron is.

His prime was only 4 years and because he was a terrible athlete compared to other greats,he only averaged 6 free throws in his prime.Lebron is playing at this level since his sophomere year.Right now bird is ahead of lebron not because of his prime or his peak but because of his accolades.Because bird prime is the shortest prime in top 10 list.However bird basketball IQ is by far the best we have ever seen.He understood the game better than anyone else.This is why he has been so successful even though he wasnt even an average athlete.

So if lebron wins another ring(FMVP) and MVP.He is gonna be right up there with bird.
I see people say this all the time, when in fact Bird was a above average athlete in a lot of ways. He had the quickest and strongest hands I have ever seen. I was a much better jumper than most give him credit for and he could run and play hard all day. You have to be a good athlete to do all those things.

I'll take 86 Larry Bird over anyone ever.

[bizil]

If Lebron wins just one more ring and FMVP, IMHO, he surpasses Bird's career.

I agree with u! For example, their is a chance that Bron will pass Bird by in career points next season. Bron has over 19,000 points already while Bird has 21,791. Bird had only 11 healthy seasons in the L (one year he only played six games another he only played 45. I think if u play at least 60-65 games, that can account for a full season or close enough). Bron has been an iron man and has played 9 seasons already. Bron has three MVP's to match Bird. Bron has a gold medal and most likely another on the way. Bron has 8 All NBA Teams to Bird's 10 All NBA Teams.

When u look at Bird compared to the two previous GOAT SF's in Hondo and later Doc, it was Bird's peak value that put him over the top combined with enough awesome seasons to go with. He didn't have the longevity that Doc or Hondo had. And Doc's (when u throw in ABA especially) and Hondo's accolades standup to Bird's. It was Bird's peak value that put him over those two. So with Bron, it looks like he will have a truly long great career like Hondo and Doc. And next year, Bron has a great shot to pass Bird to become GOAT SF! Epic, epic, epic shit in your late 20's to acheive!

[arifgokcen]

I see people say this all the time, when in fact Bird was a above average athlete in a lot of ways. He had the quickest and strongest hands I have ever seen. I was a much better jumper than most give him credit for and he could run and play hard all day. You have to be a good athlete to do all those things.

I'll take 86 Larry Bird over anyone ever.

Did you even read my post.I said compared to other greats.If you dont acknowledge that there is really no point in discussing whether lebron is better or not.

Again LB prime is too short for me.That 86 Larry Bird is not even top 10 when it comes to regular season performances.What astounds me more is he didnt raise his level of play in playoffs.His averages(per36) has significantly dropped as his FG%.

Dont forget we are only talking about offensive side of the floor.Lebron is right now the best defensive player in the league as well as best offensive player.LB was not a liability however he was never even in top 10 defensively.Thats a huge blow.So even though you can hate lebron,he will soo become the GOAT SF and move ahead of bird in top 10 list.

[arifgokcen]

Never thought I'd be the one defending Lebron but how can anyone say that isn't close.
Just like two years ago when everyone trying to discredit what kobe did.All this hate comes along with winning

[colts19]

Did you even read my post.I said compared to other greats.If you dont acknowledge that there is really no point in discussing whether lebron is better or not.

Again LB prime is too short for me.That 86 Larry Bird is not even top 10 when it comes to regular season performances.What astounds me more is he didnt raise his level of play in playoffs.His averages(per36) has significantly dropped as his FG%.

Dont forget we are only talking about offensive side of the floor.Lebron is right now the best defensive player in the league as well as best offensive player.LB was not a liability however he was never even in top 10 defensively.Thats a huge blow.So even though you can hate lebron,he will soo become the GOAT SF and move ahead of bird in top 10 list.


Yes I read your post, you said he was a terrible athlete compared to other greats and then you said he wasn't even a average athlete that is the part I disagree with. I think he was a above average athlete. Also I don't hate LBJ, I think he is a great player and the only forward who could surpass LB. I just don't think he will. What Larry did better than almost anyone was fit into and really improve a team on both ends of the floor. You of course a welcome to your own opinion on that.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

It is VERY CLOSE. And Lebron, barring injury, has 7-8 quality seasons left in the tank. Given all that Lebron has accomplished (and he has three MVPs and statistical titles, and great playoff runs), just ONE more ring and FMVP, and he vaults past Hakeem, Moses, and, yes, Bird.
NO, its not close. And since Lebron has yet to play those 7-8 quality seasons, they are moot to this conversation.

[jlauber]

NO, its not close. And since Lebron has yet to play those 7-8 quality seasons, they are moot to this conversation.

Let's see...Lebron has played in nine seasons, and his CAREER averages are 27.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg. He also had TWO seasons of 30.0 ppg and 31.4 ppg, which are better than ANY of Bird's.

Then, in the post-season, Bird's HIGH season was 27.5 ppg. How about Lebron? FIVE post-season which are better than Bird's BEST, including playoff runs of 30.3 ppg (this PAST post-season), 30.8 ppg, and a staggering 35.3 ppg.

And here are their CAREER post-season numbers...

Bird is at 23.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, and on .472 shooting.

Lebron is currently at 28.5 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, and on .469 shooting.

I'm sorry, but as great as Bird was, he never reached the levels that Lebron has in his best post-seasons.

[L8k3r5]

Lebron, he just accomplished more this year and he does & did more in the game on both ends...
So Lebron is King of the World too eh? Only Pauk... :facepalm

[L8k3r5]

I don't know about '12, but peak LeBron('09 and '10) was better than Bird ever was.
You're joking right? :oldlol: Please tell me you're joking...

[arifgokcen]

Let's see...Lebron has played in nine seasons, and his CAREER averages are 27.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg. He also had TWO seasons of 30.0 ppg and 31.4 ppg, which are better than ANY of Bird's.

Then, in the post-season, Bird's HIGH season was 27.5 ppg. How about Lebron? FIVE post-season which are better than Bird's BEST, including playoff runs of 30.3 ppg (this PAST post-season), 30.8 ppg, and a staggering 35.3 ppg.

And here are their CAREER post-season numbers...

Bird is at 23.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, and on .472 shooting.

Lebron is currently at 28.5 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, and on .469 shooting.

I'm sorry, but as great as Bird was, he never reached the levels that Lebron has in his best post-seasons.



Thats what i have been trying to say.LB didnt raise his level of play.However LBJ significantly raised his level of play.Dont forget lebron has at least 3-4 years of being the best player in the league and probably the best roster in the league.I can easily see him surpassing bird as soon as next year assuming he wins DPOY,MVP,FMVP.His peak is already better than bird

[bizil]

If u look at Bird, Isiah, and Magic, all three of those guys had premature ends to their careers. If Bird didn't have the chronic back pain, his game was built to last forever. He didn't rely on athletic ability. He's the greatest shooting and arguably passing SF ever. Passing and shooting are the last things to leave a player, if ever really. He was big enough to move into more of a PF position, which he what he was starting to do at the end of his career anyway. When u have a guy like Bron who has played nine healthy seasons to Bird's eleven seasons, it can indeed be time to start ranking him over LB. If LB played more years, then who knows what could happen. Magic and Isiah haven't had a runaway freight train headed for the top like Bron is at SF.

Future HOFers like Paul and DWill don't have rings yet or MVPs to accelerate up the charts like Bron. Peak or current value wise, Paul and D Will are top 10 PG's ever n that regard. But GOAT wise, u gotta have longevity, solo accolades, team accolades, and numbers. Team accolades are the hardest to come by often times, so u need the other three factors in spades, which CP3 and D Will are on the way to already doing. Bron is a different beast and has acheived face of the L status AND accolades that a 16 year HOF level veteran would be proud of RIGHT NOW! Bron has done these things in roughly half the time!

The deceiving thing with Bird is his GOAT SF status was built largely on peak value when u look at the guys he has passed in Dr. J and Hondo. For many years both Hondo and Dr.J were Top 10 GOAT type guys. If u line up Bird's resume to Dr. J's or Hondo's, it doesn't dominate the field like Magic's at PG, MJ's at SG, or Duncan's at PF resumes. But Bird still had a great resume and very good longevity. U couple that with his peak value as the best SF ever, and that's what makes him GOAT SF. But it ALSO makes him vulnerable to Bron at this point.

[colts19]

Let's see...Lebron has played in nine seasons, and his CAREER averages are 27.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg. He also had TWO seasons of 30.0 ppg and 31.4 ppg, which are better than ANY of Bird's.

Then, in the post-season, Bird's HIGH season was 27.5 ppg. How about Lebron? FIVE post-season which are better than Bird's BEST, including playoff runs of 30.3 ppg (this PAST post-season), 30.8 ppg, and a staggering 35.3 ppg.

And here are their CAREER post-season numbers...

Bird is at 23.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, and on .472 shooting.

Lebron is currently at 28.5 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, and on .469 shooting.

I'm sorry, but as great as Bird was, he never reached the levels that Lebron has in his best post-seasons.

You should know being the worlds biggest Wilt fan, that numbers don't tell the whole story. Wilt became a better player after his scoring years ended and his team play started. Had he continued to focus only on scoring he would have had even more records than he does now. However his teams wouldn't have been as good.

Labron's number are better than Bird's in some areas because he is ball dominate and had to score on the teams he's been on. Larry could have scored more but would not have been as good a team player if he had.

And as much as you point out LB record with HCA. I would think you would never be able to let go of LBJ pitful performance against Dallas last year. A choke job unlike I have ever seen in my 65 years.

[jlauber]

You should know being the worlds biggest Wilt fan, that numbers don't tell the whole story. Wilt became a better player after his scoring years ended and his team play started. Had he continued to focus only on scoring he would have had even more records than he does now. However his teams wouldn't have been as good.

Labron's number are better than Bird's in some areas because he is ball dominate and had to score on the teams he's been on. Larry could have scored more but would not have been as good a team player if he had.

And as much as you point out LB record with HCA. I would think you would never be able to let go of LBJ pitful performance against Dallas last year. A choke job unlike I have ever seen in my 65 years.

Lebron has a ways to go before he enters the discussions with Bird. But, there are those here who are posting "and it is not even close." Yes, it IS close.

Is that a slap at Bird? I don't believe so. Hell, now that Lebron has one ring, I suspect he will get more. Remember, even MJ had to start with his first ring (and at a similar age as Lebron BTW.)

Lebron may very well wind up challenging EVERYONE by the time he retires.

[1987_Lakers]

NO, its not close. And since Lebron has yet to play those 7-8 quality seasons, they are moot to this conversation.

this is '86 Bird vs '12 LeBron, not career vs career.

And I disagree with people saying it's not even close and Bird is one of my all-time favorite players. I'm taking peak LeBron over every other SF in NBA History not named Bird.

[WockaVodka]

Is 86 Bird the best version of Bird? Couldn't you argue that 84 Bird was better?

[Tenchi Ryu]

this is '86 Bird vs '12 LeBron, not career vs career.

And I disagree with people saying it's not even close and Bird is one of my all-time favorite players. I'm taking peak LeBron over every other SF in NBA History not named Bird.
I think Prime Dr. J could maybe give him a run for his money.

[1987_Lakers]

Is 86 Bird the best version of Bird? Couldn't you argue that 84 Bird was better?

'86 was when Bird was at his absolute best IMO.

Look what he did in the month of Jan/Feb/Mar of '86...

Jan: 26/10/6.5 on 51% shooting
Feb: 27/13/8 on 50% shooting
Mar: 31/9/6.5 on 54% shooting

'86 postseason: 26/9/8/2 on 52% shooting

The only SF in history who fills up a stat sheet like that is LeBron. I've always said Bird is the best all-around player in league history, but if LeBron can improve his shooting I have no problem putting him ahead of Bird in that category.

Scoring: Even
Athleticism: LeBron
Rebounding: Bird
Passing: Bird
Ball Handling: LeBron
Driving/Penetrating: LeBron
Post Game: Bird
Shooting: Bird
Defense: LeBron
Off-Ball Movement: Bird

[1987_Lakers]

I think Prime Dr. J could maybe give him a run for his money.

LeBron is a superior ball-handler & defender than Dr. J. He is also the better passer & shooter.

Give me LeBron 10 times out of 10.

[Champ]

Being a better player doesnt affect the GOAT list as much as accolades.Bird was a fantastic player.However you have to be stupid to take LB over LBJ.Because bird as great as he was,he wasnt the athlete lebron is.

His prime was only 4 years and because he was a terrible athlete compared to other greats,he only averaged 6 free throws in his prime.Lebron is playing at this level since his sophomere year.Right now bird is ahead of lebron not because of his prime or his peak but because of his accolades.Because bird prime is the shortest prime in top 10 list.However bird basketball IQ is by far the best we have ever seen.He understood the game better than anyone else.This is why he has been so successful even though he wasnt even an average athlete.

So if lebron wins another ring(FMVP) and MVP.He is gonna be right up there with bird.

I disagree with most of what you said.

You said that being a better player doesn't affect the GOAT list as much as accolades, which I think is a matter of opinion.

I also don't get the logic that since Lebron is a better athlete, someone has to be "stupid" to pick Bird over him. Being a better athlete does not equate to being a better basketball player.

Like many, you also underrate Bird's athleticism, see -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0HNP_eE5BE

I don't think Bird's shortened prime had anything to do with his "lack of athleticism." It was due to injury, much of it as a result of the way he played and how he sacrificed his body during the first have of his career. He also didn't turn pro until he was almost 23, which pushed his prime back several years.

[Champ]

'86 was when Bird was at his absolute best IMO.

Look what he did in the month of Jan/Feb/Mar of '86...

Jan: 26/10/6.5 on 51% shooting
Feb: 27/13/8 on 50% shooting
Mar: 31/9/6.5 on 54% shooting

'86 postseason: 26/9/8/2 on 52% shooting

The only SF in history who fills up a stat sheet like that is LeBron. I've always said Bird is the best all-around player in league history, but if LeBron can improve his shooting I have no problem putting him ahead of Bird in that category.

Scoring: Even
Athleticism: LeBron
Rebounding: Bird
Passing: Bird
Ball Handling: LeBron
Driving/Penetrating: LeBron
Post Game: Bird
Shooting: Bird
Defense: LeBron
Off-Ball Movement: Bird

As good as Bird was in '86, I think he may have been better in '85, which was his last year playing with a good back. Other injuries hampered his playoff run that year, unfortunately, causing his numbers to drop during the post-season.

During the '85 regular season, however, Bird was completely dominant, having greatly honed is offensive arsenal during the off-season, while retaining the physicality of his early years.

By '86, I think he lost some of that ability due to injury, and increasingly became more of a mental/finesse player until his retirement.

But to your point, he did have a great post season in '86, so I agree that as a whole, '86 was the better season for him, even if his body had already begun to decline.

[Round Mound]

'86 was when Bird was at his absolute best IMO.

Look what he did in the month of Jan/Feb/Mar of '86...

Jan: 26/10/6.5 on 51% shooting
Feb: 27/13/8 on 50% shooting
Mar: 31/9/6.5 on 54% shooting

'86 postseason: 26/9/8/2 on 52% shooting

The only SF in history who fills up a stat sheet like that is LeBron. I've always said Bird is the best all-around player in league history, but if LeBron can improve his shooting I have no problem putting him ahead of Bird in that category.

Scoring: Even
Athleticism: LeBron
Rebounding: Bird
Passing: Bird
Ball Handling: LeBron
Driving/Penetrating: LeBron
Post Game: Bird
Shooting: Bird
Defense: LeBron
Off-Ball Movement: Bird

:applause:

[jlauber]

Lebron James could not win a ring until he teamed up with top 2 SG and top 5 PF in their primes.

Bird did not do that.
/end of story.

Just THREE to FOUR other HOF players and DEEP rosters EVERY season he played.

[ripthekik]

Just THREE to FOUR other HOF players and DEEP rosters EVERY season he played.
Did he call them up after losing and say "Hey bros.. it's not working out.. gimme a hand here. We should all team together so I can win a ring with you guys' help. Whatcha say?"

[KingBeasley08]

what does at have to do with actual performance?

[jlauber]

Did he call them up after losing and say "Hey bros.. it's not working out.. gimme a hand here. We should all team together so I can win a ring with you guys' help. Whatcha say?"

Why would Bird have needed to call anyone else?

And give me a list of players that Bird went to the Finals with...and compare them to what Lebron took Cleveland to the Finals with.

[ripthekik]

what does at have to do with actual performance?
Can win and cannot win difference :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

Why would Bird have needed to call anyone else?
As the best and most dominant player in the league, why did Lebron had to call another top 5 NBA and allstar PF :confusedshrug:

[jlauber]

As the best and most dominant player in the league, why did Lebron had to call another top 5 NBA and allstar PF :confusedshrug:

Because he realized that with the cast of clowns that he had been saddled with for seven years in Cleveland (and PLEASE don't bring up a washed up Shaq), that he had NO chance.

Bird won three rings in 13 seasons of playing with the most loaded rosters in NBA history.

[ripthekik]

Because he realized that with the cast of clowns that he had been saddled with for seven years in Cleveland (and PLEASE don't bring up a washed up Shaq), that he had NO chance.

Bird won three rings in 13 seasons of playing with the most loaded rosters in NBA history.
Yeah, I am totally fine with him leaving Cleveland. Why not go to NY and lead Amare and the knicks to the championship himself? Why not go to Bulls? There were lots of good teams then that he could have went to with great players that he could lead to the champ.

Instead he calls up next best player :facepalm and still not enough, calls up another franchise PF...

[KingBeasley08]

ok but both won rings. we're looking at stats and how they performed. ur lebron hate is getting out of hand

[SuperPippen]

Because he realized that with the cast of clowns that he had been saddled with for seven years in Cleveland (and PLEASE don't bring up a washed up Shaq), that he had NO chance.

Bird won three rings in 13 seasons of playing with the most loaded rosters in NBA history.

10 healthy seasons, actually.

And you unfairly bring up how stacked the rosters of the 80's Celtics were, with no mention of how stacked the rosters of their rivals, the showtime Lakers, were as well.

[Champ]

Because he realized that with the cast of clowns that he had been saddled with for seven years in Cleveland (and PLEASE don't bring up a washed up Shaq), that he had NO chance.

Bird won three rings in 13 seasons of playing with the most loaded rosters in NBA history.

Different era with stronger competition and far greater parity. Also played in a tougher conference than the Lakers and lost several years/chances due to injury.

If you were consistent in your analogy, his run of playing with "loaded rosters" really only lasted until '87-'88, so in essence, he had 8 good years and won three rings playing during a stacked era.

[1987_Lakers]

As good as Bird was in '86, I think he may have been better in '85, which was his last year playing with a good back. Other injuries hampered his playoff run that year, unfortunately, causing his numbers to drop during the post-season.

During the '85 regular season, however, Bird was completely dominant, having greatly honed is offensive arsenal during the off-season, while retaining the physicality of his early years.

By '86, I think he lost some of that ability due to injury, and increasingly became more of a mental/finesse player until his retirement.

But to your point, he did have a great post season in '86, so I agree that as a whole, '86 was the better season for him, even if his body had already begun to decline.

'85 probably would have been his best season if he didn't get in a bar fight and injure his hand during the '85 postseason.

[1987_Lakers]

One month has past since I made this thread. You people feel the same way?

[StateOfMind12]

One month has past since I made this thread. You people feel the same way?
Yup, although I'm sure some people believe that 2009 Lebron might be better than Bird but not 2012 Lebron. There already is a lot of debate and controversy whether or not 2012 Lebron is even the best version of Lebron. To me though, 2012 Lebron is without a doubt the best version. What do you think?

[TheBigVeto]

I'd take Bird, but this comparison is not a blasphemy. Bron was great in the last playoffs.

Unfortunately, since Bron left Cleveland and joined Miami, no matter what he does in the future, he won't be greater than Bird.

[WockaVodka]

Bird for me, the difference between their defenses isn't as much as most people are thinking it is and Bird was a much better offensive player.

[Tenchi Ryu]

86 Bird is like the image you think of when putting Bird in the GOAT top 10 list. His absolute peak, and imo, not many can challange this year.

[bizil]

I think you are talking about the best SF's peak value wise of all time flat out. And in terms of a GOAT list, I still got LB number one. But Bron is at worst number 4 on a GOAT SF list. But his peak value, three MVP's, and revolutionizing his position could have him number two already on the GOAT SF list. Bron has already been in three Finals, getting a Clevland team that had no business being there to the dance. MOST GUYS at 27 usually don't have any business being in the top five GOAT of their respective positions. But if u are MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, or Bron level, u can shoot up the charts in an epic manner. Point being is this, Bron is gonna pass Bird by VERY SOON on the GOAT SF. By the time Bron is 30 and barring injury, Bron will be a clear lock for GOAT SF and in the top 10 players of all time.

In terms of who I would pick it's damn near a tossup. These guys are so different but yet very similar. Numbers wise in terms of points, boards, and dimes, they are damn near twins. The main differences are scoring skillset, defense, and athletic ability. And I feel Bird has the ultimate killer clutch gene. But for me I gotta lean to Lebron narrowly. The difference is the defensive end of the court and the way Bron can actually play PG if needed on both ends of the court. Bird could pass just as good as Bron in the halfcourt or stationary position. But off the dribble and running a fast break, Bron has the vision and pace of the best PG's to do it.

But I would NEVER argue one taking Bird over Bron! It's just hard for me to go against guys like MJ, Bron, and Kobe who are freak athletes, great scorers, great passers, great defenders, and great rebounders relative to their positions. I feel Wade is on that level as well. I think if G Hill would have stayed healthy he would have been on that level. U would be hard pressed to find 10 NBA players in history perimeter wise who give u all of that. Bird and Magic give u three outta ffive which is epic as well.

[kawhileonard2]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/michael-jordan-said-larry-bird-is-far-better-than-lebron-james-and-any-other-small-forward-in-nba-history/ar-AA15rLUf?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=451d1dd3812d4754b45cf83be30f124c

[3ba11]

Lebron took the top three 1st options in the conference and put them on 1 team (Lebron, Wade, Bosh), so Bird would have to team up with MJ and Isiah to match Lebron.. Or simply adding Jordan to McHale would equal Wade/Bosh

[Street Hunger]

Different point here that I'm about to make, but Larry Bird was definitely way more fun to watch than LeBron James .